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  text: So the first question I have today is, what is the difference between the Lutheran and Roman Catholic perspective on the sacrifice of, of the Eucharist or the sacrifice of the mass because it does appear that there is some sacrificial language within Lutheranism in certain places, uh, but clearly there are many differences as well with the Roman Catholic tradition on the understanding of what exactly that means.
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  text: Uh, so this is a somewhat complicated question, um, because language of, of sacrifice in relation to holy communion is, is language that's really existed from the very beginning of the church.
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  text: Uh, we do find that kind of language in Iranaus.
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  text: We find it, um, pretty much all over the place within the church fathers.
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  text: So, there, there's always been some understanding that there is a relationship between the celebration of, of holy communion and sacrifice.
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  text: And some of that is just the simple fact that, um, in communion, we celebrate and receive the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.
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  text: So, so there's very clearly a, a tie between sacrifice and communion, um, e- even from a memorialist perspective, in that we're remembering a sacrifice.
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  text: So I, I think it's, it's pretty much inevitable that we're gonna have a tie between communion and sacrifice, um, but the question of like, of what does that mean, a- and what exactly is that tie is one that's gonna be differentiated between people of various Christian traditions.
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  text: And, you know, there are a lot of, um, debates and, and there, there are a lot of publications related to what the church fathers meant by sacrifice and what they understood by sacrifice, um, so I'm not going to delve into the discussions of the church fathers on that.
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  text: Um, I, I think it's a very complicated question and I think that there really are a number of different ways that the fathers understood sacrifice.
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  text: I, I definitely don't think that you can find...
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  text: I, I mean, I don't, I definitely don't think there is, you know, some kind of exact identification between the way that the fathers viewed sacrifice and the Roman Catholic church today, but there's, but there certainly are intimations of that as well.
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  text: So I wouldn't say that it's not there either.
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  text: Um, and, and you have to get into different fathers and what different fathers say about that.
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  text: Uh, and I'm not necessarily prepared to do that at the moment, but, uh, what, what I can do is talk about how sacrifice is understood within the Lutheran tradition and how it's understood within the Roman Catholic tradition.
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  text: Um, so I, I actually published an article on this, um, a while ago.
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  text: It's available online.
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  text: If you go to my website you can get it.
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  text: JordanBCooper.com.
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  text: Um, there should be a link to an article I wrote that's on the subject of, of the Eucharist and sacrifice and the understanding of Eucharistic sacrifice within early Lutheranism.
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  text: In, in that article, I basically trace language of sacrifice, um, through just Luther and, and Melanchthon and some of their early, some of their writings on this particular discussion.
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  text: So let's kind of lay out, what is the Roman Catholic view of sacrifice and then talk about the Lutheran perspective and what is going on there that differentiates the two.
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  text: Um, in the Roman Catholic tradition, uh, the, the, the Eucharist is understood as, as being an unbloody sacrifice, uh, which means that in the service, the priest offers Christ to the Father on the altar.
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  text: Christ sacrifice is offered to the Father.
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  text: So, so the direction of the action is the priest to God.
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  text: The priest offering on behalf of the people, Christ to God the Father.
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  text: Uh, a- and this would be connected to the way that sacrifices function in the old covenant or in the Old Testament, was that a sacrifice was offered from the priest to God on behalf of, of the people.
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  text: And so in their understanding, this is what happens with Christ sacrifice.
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  text: Now, the way that that's teased out is that this is not sp- because Hebrews, the book of Hebrews speaks certainly about a, a once for all sacrifice.
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  text: Um, a- and in the book of Hebrews, the author very clearly demonstrates that the, the very differentiation between the old covenant sacrifices and Christ sacrifices is the amount of times that they're performed.
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  text: And so the imperfection of the old covenant sacrifices are very clear in that they have to be repeated.
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  text: And Christ sacrifice is unique in that it is something that was offered once for all, offered to the Father, and there does not need to be this kind of repetitive sacrifice like there was in, in the old covenant.
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  text: Now I, when I look at the book of Hebrews and that argument, I don't think the argument really makes very much sense from a Roman Catholic perspective.
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  text: I think if the author of Hebrews had understood that the central act of Christian worship was a, an unbloody but propitiatory sacrifice of Christ, um, he couldn't really make the argument in the way that he does.
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  text: A- and it's not even addressed.
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  text: And, and if that's certainly, if, if that was at the very center of the understanding of the Christian life, I can't see how that question, when you're ta- specifically having a discussion about daily offerings and sacrifices, a- and your contrast is between that and the once for all sacrifice of Christ, if it's the early Christian understanding that there also are daily sacrifices in the mass that is understood as a propitiatory sacrifice, I don't see how that couldn't come up in discussion.
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  text: Um, so, uh, I have a hard time reconciling the book of Hebrews with the Roman Catholic understanding of what's going on in the mass.
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  text: I, I think it's, it's the clearest, uh, a- and best explanation of the evidence to say that the author didn't believe that at least that kind of sacrifice, or it would have come up in that conversation somehow and it just doesn't really fit.
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  text: But, but Rome does have a way of, of explaining that.
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  text: So what, what they say is, um, the difference is this is, first of all, it's an unbloody sacrifice.
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  text: Um, so that, that's a qualification there.
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  text: But, but secondly it's a, it, it's not a re-sacrifice as in Christ isn't sacrificed again and again and again.
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  text: Um, though if you do look at the middle ages, at least in, in terms of popular piety and what the reformers were speaking about, that certainly was the understanding of a lot of people, um, was that this was just a s- Christ sacrificed himself again and again and again on the altar.Um, but there are now ways of, of explaining that to basically say, "This is not a re-sacrifice.
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  text: It's a representation of the once-for-all sacrifice." So the sacrifice of Christ is represented on the altar at the Mass, so there is an unbloody propitiatory sacrifice that is identical with the once-for-all sacrifice.
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  text: So that's the way of connecting that with Hebrews to make it more consistent with the argument of Hebrews, which is very clear that Christ was sacrificed once for all, so you can't have a re-sacrifice.
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  text: Um, now, I, I say that as just, kind of, a clever way of trying to fit, fit the pieces together in a way that's not explicitly contradictory to the Book of Hebrews, um, but, but I don't see th- that the whole argument of Hebrews would really work very well from a Roman Catholic understanding of sacrifice in general as a propitiatory sacrifice.
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  text: So, so that's the, the Roman view.
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  text: Now, what, what Martin Luther does in, in his, uh, early writings particularly, where he discusses the matter...
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  text: Be- because Luther's, uh, writings on the Lord's Supper are, kind of, in two phases.
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  text: So the, the earlier writings on the Lord's Supper are about the notion of Eucharistic sacrifice, very much o- opposed to the idea of sacrifice as it was expressed in the Middle Ages.
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  text: The latter part of his writings are really more so against Zwingli and the Memorialists, those who deny that, that Christ's body and blood are actually present in the Sacrament.
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  text: Um, so Luther's polemical ideas, they, they...
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  text: So his, his focus polemically shifts from Rome now to the, what we would call the, the Reformed or the Zwinglians.
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  text: So there is a difference in terms of the focus in his early and later writings.
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  text: So the earlier writings focus a lot more so on this notion of sacrifice.
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  text: Now, what Luther does, uh, in those early writings is he makes a distinction between a sacrifice and a sacrament.
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  text: And f- for that distinction, what Luther basically says is, a sacrifice is something that we are offering to God.
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  text: At least, uh, th- this, this is in the sense of how sacrifice is understood with, with the Eucharist, Eucharistic theology at least.
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  text: Uh, and he says...
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  text: So the understanding of sacrifice is the priest offers.
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  text: So the direction is from the people to God.
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  text: There is a sacrifice that is offered to God on behalf of the people.
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  text: And a sacrament is different, in that the sacrament is pure gift, so the direction is God to us, rather than us to God.
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  text: And so for Luther, later when he's battling the, the Zwinglians, he would say in some sense it's the same.
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  text: The Zwinglians and the Roman Catholics are...
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  text: have the same problem, in that the direction of Holy Communion is the people to God.
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  text: And so for, for Rome, it's the priest offering the sacrifice to God to appease the Father, um, for the sake of the people.
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  text: And for the Reformed perspective, or the more specifically Zwinglian perspective, it's, it's a memorial act of the people to God to remember what Christ, what Christ had done.
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  text: So the direction is us to God.
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  text: No- now Luther says this notion of a sacrament is the direction is God to us.
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  text: So that's the main differentiation between then the Roman Catholic perspective and, and the Lutheran perspective of Eucharistic sacrifice is, is the sacrament.
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  text: The most important and foundational element of it is that the direction is God to us, rather than us to God.
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  text: Okay, so that's what differentiates Luther's view from both the Zwinglian and the Roman Catholic view of, of Holy Communion.
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  text: Uh, with that being said, uh, the question then is do we, do we...
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  text: What can we do then with the language of sacrifice?
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  text: Is there a proper place for the language of sacrifice?
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  text: Now, the language of sacrifice doesn't show up as much in Luther, but, but it's not totally absent in Luther, but it shows up more so in Melanchthon, and it shows up in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession, you, you see language.
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  text: So in our confessions, there is language of, of sacrifice.
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  text: And I think when people think of a sacrifice of praise in communion, they often think more so of the Anglican tradition than the Lutheran, but there is a strong, uh, notion of that within Lutheran tradition as well.
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  text: And so Melanchthon at different points...
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  text: And you can check out that article where I discuss this, but at different points in Melanchthon's writings he identifies different aspects of the Eucharistic service with sacrifice.
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  text: And the difference though is the sacrifice is us offering ourselves to God in sacrifice, and so the direction is God to usward, and then we respond with thanksgiving.
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  text: So God gives us his grace in the Sacrament of Holy Communion as we receive the body and blood of Christ, we respond with thanksgiving.
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  text: And so there is an action that is ours in communion, but it's a response to God's action.
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  text: That's, that's the difference.
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  text: And there...
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  text: This does get into a lot of debates, uh, today in terms of Eucharistic, uh, liturgy.
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  text: I think there has been a, an overreaction on the part of, of some Lutherans.
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  text: Especially we're talking about more of the radical Lutheran kind of notions that everything has to be passive.
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  text: It's all about what God is doing for me.
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  text: We wanna downplay anything that is our activity at all, um, to the point that we're missing a lot.
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  text: I think that's probably pretty good and right, um, in that, you know, there, there are certain Lutherans that don't want, for example, a prayer of thanksgiving during Eucharistic service at all.
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  text: Uh, they don't want any kind of, you know, uh, enemetic prayer or, uh, nothing that...
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  text: Th- th- they basically want the whole Eucharistic service to be just the words of institution in this "for you" proclamatory sense, and the pastor cannot be facing the altar, but must be facing the people, because everything is gift and it's, "This is my body given for you" proclaimed to the people in this proclamatory kind of prophetic mode.
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  text: Anything priestly or sacrificial is just taken out totally.
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  text: Um, I think that's, that's very much mistaken.And I think foundationally, yes, it is this idea of sacrament, God giving to us the body and blood of Christ for the forgiveness of our sins, but there is this response of praise and thanksgiving.
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  text: You know, some people say, "Well, you save the thanksgiving stuff until after the ser- the- the sacramental element of the service is over," and I- I don't think there's ever a time where we shouldn't be offering sacrifices of praise to God.
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  text: Um, it is truly good, right, and salutary that at all times and in all places we offer thanks to you, and certainly within the- the early Christian liturgy, and that's always been the Christian understanding.
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  text: There's never a time when it's inappropriate to offer our thanks to God.
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  text: Uh, a- and even as God is giving his gifts to us.
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  text: So Melanchthon himself even mentions the putting, uh, the- the receiving of the- the host in our mouths as an act of thanksgiving.
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  text: And so he certainly doesn't divorce those two things.
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  text: So at the same...
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  text: They're- they're both happening at the same time.
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  text: There is this continual giving of God's gifts to us, and this continual overflowing of our hearts and offering of ourselves to God in thanksgiving.
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  text: So these are going on all at- at exactly the same time.
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  text: Um, so, uh, yeah, I- I don't like those...
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  text: I- I don't think we need to get rid of anything that's sacrificial at all i- in the communion service.
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  text: I mean, there's even a sense in- in that there is a sacrifice in that the benefits of Christ, i- in terms of propitiatory sacrifice, we are receiving the benefits of Christ's propitiatory sacrifice in the Eucharist too.
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  text: It doesn't mean that there's a- that the sacrifice is re-offered or represented or- or anything like that, b- but there's even a sense in which, and I think this is what a lot of the Fathers are getting at with this kind of language is, it was that propitiatory sacrifice, that same Christ is given to us, and the benefits of that sacrifice are delivered.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: And so I think they're speaking sometimes of sacrifice in that sense.
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  text: And so, uh, again, the difference is it's not the priest offering this to the Father.
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  text: It's all God giving to us, but there still is a kind of sacrificial language there.
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  text: It's the benefits of that once-for-all sacrifice that are given to us, uh, in- in Holy Communion, which is clear in just the- the language of the words of institution, uh, "Given for you for the forgiveness of sins," that we remember every, uh, Holy Communion service.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: So it's a complicated issue when you look at the history of Lutheranism.
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  text: Um, it's also complicated in- in that Luther does strip a lot of the communion service, um, to focus on those kind of Gospel proclamatory elements.
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  text: He wants to really excise the- the language of propitiatory sacrifice and the way that it was understood in the Middle Ages.
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  text: Um, so because of that, he simplifies a lot of that.
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  text: Within the 20th century, there was this kind of liturgical renewal, um, that recurred, well, within Anglicanism too, but also, but within Lutheranism, um, where we kind of brought back a lot of those, the- the- the prayers and different elements, um, of the communion service.
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  text: And I think rightly so.
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  text: I think it's good.
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  text: I understand why Luther took them out, and I think in- in contextually, there's good reason for it.
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  text: Um, but I think it also is good to bring some of that- some of that back as long as it's done carefully, and- and done well.
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  text: So like I said, complicated issue, and even within Rome, there are differences of understanding in terms of all of the particulars of Eucharistic sacrifice, but hopefully that gives you a little bit- bit of a taste of some of the differences between Rome and- and the Lutheran tradition on- on Eucharistic sacrifice.
  speaker: speaker_0
