最后我想说，四世纪的教父们有非常高的圣事神学。 And I would like to finish by saying that the 4th century fathers had a very high sacramentology.
这并不意味着挽回祭是你可以一次又一次去做的 事情，也不意味着这是你领受恩典的一部分。 That doesn't mean that the propitiation was something that you could go to over and over and over again, and that that was part of how you received grace.
当他称之为为活人和死人的挽回祭时，他的意思是 说，在你看来，这也是为活人和死人的挽回祭吗？ When he calls it a propitiatory sacrifice for the living and the dead, does he mean it's a propitiatory sacrifice of the living and the dead in your esprit as well?
他的意思是基督的祭献就是如此，而这代表了基督的祭献，没错。 He means that the sacrifice of Christ is, and that represents what the sacrifice of Christ is, yes.
你知道，有很多人相信基督真实临在- You know, there's a lot of people who believe that Christ is truly present-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
在圣餐中与他的子民同在。 with His people in the supper.
我们称之为挽回祭，意思是它真实地就是基督的独一祭献。 We would call it a propitiatory sacrifice, meaning that it is, in a true way, the one sacrifice of Christ.
不是重复的，而是再次呈现。 Not repeated, but re-presented.
我们实际上是在领受基督身体和宝血的益处。 We are actually receiving the benefits of Christ's body and blood.
你正在领受罪的赦免。 You are receiving the forgiveness of sins.
所以这是一个祭献，但不是奉献？ So it is a sacrifice, but it's not an offering?
还是说这是一个奉献？ Or it is an offering?
对于任何听到这个的人来说，对手们都是错的。 Well, the adversaries are wrong for anyone hearing this.
布雷登已经知道了，我知道你也知道，但对于所有听众来说，我只是在说事实。 And Brayden already knows, and I know you know, but for everyone listening, I'm just saying how it is.
对手们都曲解地说着同一句话。 The adversaries perversely all say the same sentence.
「没错，弥撒是... "Yeah, the Mass is...
魔鬼正在利用弥撒」，等等等等。 the devil's getting away with the Mass," and dah, dah, dah.
所以当他们抛出一大堆人，说公教徒也认为这些人在教导公 教神学，虽然显然不是以公教的方式，这就有点奇怪了。 So it is kinda weird when they sort of throw out, like, obviously not in the Catholic way, but here's a long list of people the Catholics also think teach Catholic theology.
当然，他们在教导公教神学。 Well, of course, they're teaching Catholic theology.
这就是我们在这里的原因。 That's why we're here.
而且公教的意思就是路德宗。 And Catholic means Lutheran.
没错。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
公教的意思就是路德宗。 Catholic means Lutheran.
我都忘了这一点。 I forgot about that.
不，奥古斯丁实际上在这一点上有一句很棒的话。 No, Augustine actually has a great line on that.
当你进入一个城镇时... When you go into a town- ...
要问大公教会在哪里，否则异端会说他们才是大公教会。 ask where the Catholic Church is, because otherwise heretics will say they're the Catholic Church.
是的，没错。 Yes, yes.
哦哦，哦哦。 Uh-oh, uh-oh.
嘿，佩顿，再告诉我一次，你能给我背诵一下路德宗密苏里教区版本的信经吗？ Hey, Peyton, tell me again, can you quote to me the LCMS rendering of the Creed?
独一、圣洁的- One holy-
没错。 Yeah.
... ...
基督教的- Christian-
是-是-它- Y- y- it-
你们真的这么做吗？ Do you really do that?
你们把大公改成了基督教？ You changed, you changed Catholic to Christian?
是的，你-没错。 Yeah, you- yeah.
它说基督教的，下面还写着「原文是」。大公这个词很蠢。 It says Christian, and it says, below it says, "originally." The word Catholic is stupid.
我不知道他们为什么要这么说。 I don't know why they said it.
但是当我们在圣三一主日诵读亚他那修信经时，有多少罗马公教徒会这样做？ But when we say the, when we say the Athanasian Creed on Holy Trinity, how many Roman Catholics do that?
总之。 So, anyways.
大家好。 Hey, everyone.
我是来自《教理问答者》的布雷登，欢迎回到本频道的又一期新教-公教对话。 This is Brayden from The Catechuman, and welcome back to another Protestant-Catholic dialogue on the channel.
这一次，我们请到了一位不同的公教徒来代表公教立场，所以我要闭 嘴了，因为我们今天请到了一位专业的公教人类学家乔·赫施迈尔。 This time, we have a different Catholic representing the Catholic position, so I'm gonna shut up, because we've got a professional Catholic anthropologist, Joe Heschmeyer, in the studio today.
他是多本书的作者，包括《彼得教宗：圣餐真的是耶稣，早期教会就是公教会》。 Author of a number of books, including Pope Peter: The Eucharist is Really Jesus and the Early Church Was The Catholic Church.
他最近与詹姆斯·怀特就「弥撒是否为挽回祭」进行了 一场辩论，这也是我们在基督里联合在一起的原因。 He had a recent debate with James White on Is the Mass a Propitiatory Sacrifice, which is what brings us all here together in Christian fraternity.
佩顿·豪兰，我们请回了明星嘉宾，路德宗密苏里教区的神学生。 Peyton Howland, we have returning star, returning guest, seminarian in the LCMS Lutheran tradition.
如果你还没看过我们之前关于告解圣事、称义、在咖啡店中谈美 国福音派，以及那个我们不谈的讲道评论，关于路德宗信徒如何 得不到救恩的对话，去看看那些视频吧，因为它们真的很棒。 If you haven't seen our previous dialogues about the Sacrament of Confession, Justification, American Evangelicalism in the Middle of a Coffee Shop, and then That One Sermon Review That We Don't Talk About, about how Lutherans are not saved, go watch all those videos, because those were awesome.
那么，你们今天过得怎么样？ So, how are you guys doing today?
感谢你们和我一起。 Thanks for joining me.
是啊。 Yeah.
对。 Yeah.
我过得很好。 I'm doing great.
我很高兴来到这里。 I'm happy to be here.
我很兴奋能开始这场对话，并从一个不同于公教浸信会的角度来看待这个问题。 I'm excited to kind of get this dialogue going, and kind of look at this from a different perspective than, you know, Catholic Baptist.
当然可以。 Yes, for sure.
佩顿，你怎么样？ Peyton, how you doing?
我过得很好。 I'm doing great.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我也很高兴来到这里。 Glad to be here as well.
当然，我也不是什么学者，所以... Of course I- I've, I'm no scholar as well, so...
... ...
正如之前说的，这不是什么大辩论，但我很高兴能有 机会对话，特别是和一位在这方面如此博学的人。 As is made clear, no big debate, but I'm glad that I'm very blessed to be able to dialogue, especially with someone that's so knowledgeable with stuff like this.
而我还只是一个低微的神学生。 And I'm a lowly seminarian still.
我不久前也是其中之一，但是，嗯... I was very recently one of those, but, well...
我说不久前，但那是因为我老了，不想意识到自己有多老。 I say recently, but that's 'cause I'm old and don't want to realize how old I was.
七年前我是他们中的一员。 I was one of those seven years ago.
别在意。 Nevermind.
那还算最近。 That's recent.
是啊，那还算最近。 Yeah, that's recent.
但我觉得上来讨论这个话题会很好，因为- But I figured it'd be good to get on here and discuss this 'cause-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
乔，我也读过你的一些关于圣餐的文章，也看过很多相关的视频之类的。 I've read some of your articles as well, Joe, about some of the stuff with the Eucharist and I've watched many videos and things like that.
我看到，之前也提到过，但是的，你看到的很多对 话都是罗马公教的观点，然后就是浸信会或者- And I see, and it was mentioned before, but yeah, a lot of the dialogue you see is going to be on the Roman Catholic side, and then a very Baptist or-
... ...
非宗派教会对纪念说的看法，对吧？ Non-denominational take on memorialism, right?
没错。 Right.
当谈到圣餐的时候。 When it comes to the Eucharist.
是的，我觉得在临在和祭献的问题上也是- Yeah, I think on questions of presence and sacrifice too-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
非宗派基督徒或浸信会与公教徒之间的区别要更加黑白分明。 It's much more of a black and white kind of distinction between what a non-denominational Christian or a Baptist is gonna have vis-à-vis a Catholic.
而路德宗的立场，你必须理解更多的细微差别。 Whereas the Lutheran position, you have to understand a lot more nuance.
我记得在做成人慕道时，来的一位年轻女性有路德宗背景，她只是在询问。 I remember doing OCIA and one of the young women who came was coming from a Lutheran background, and she was just inquiring.
那些人对公教有点好奇。 It was people who were kind of curious about Catholicism.
她试图理解公教观点与路德宗观点的区别。 And she was trying to understand, you know, what the Catholic view was compared to the Lutheran view.
你知道的，基督在、同在、在其下，与质变说的变化观点相比。 You know, Christ being in, with and under, compared to the transubstantiation view of change.
这很好地提醒了我，哦对，我想即使在这个房间里，也只有她和我两个人。 And it was a good reminder of, like, oh yeah, like, I think she and I are the only two people even in this room.
我们一直在... We've been under...
你知道，这个房间里还有很多其他新教徒。 You know, there are a lot of other Protestants in this room.
他们中没有人有那样的背景。 None of them are kind of coming from that background.
所以她特别关心的问题非常针对路德宗，我向浸信会解 释这真的是耶稣并不一定能回答她的问题，反之亦然。 And so her particular concerns were specific enough to Lutheranism that me explaining to Baptists that it's really Jesus was not gonna necessarily answer her questions, or vice versa.
你知道- You know-
没错。 Right.
... ...
解释路德宗观点的一些困难，可能对那些有浸信会背景的人来说没有意义。 explaining some of the difficulties, perhaps, with the Lutheran view, that's not gonna make sense to, you know, the people coming from a Baptist background.
所以我认为，把它作为一个完全独立的对话来进行 是绝对值得的，以尊重人们来自不同背景的事实。 So I think it is absolutely worth doing it as a, I think, a completely separate conversation, to honor the fact people are coming from different places.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我觉得... So I think it...
这是一个重要原因，因为很多这类讨论确实发生在 公教徒和更多改革宗或低教会思维的新教徒之间。 that is one of the big reasons is because a lot of these discussions do happen between the Catholic and the more Reformed or Low Church kinda minded Protestants.
这没问题，你知道的，但是很多新教徒会说：「嘿，你们公教徒为什么 把所有新教徒都当成低教会的福音派或加尔文主义者？」你知道吗？ Which is fine, you know, but, like, a lot of Protestants will say, "Hey, why do you Catholics treat all Protestants as if they're, like, Low Church Evangelical or Calvinists?" You know?
还有其他... There are other...
你知道，还有其他新教徒你可以交谈或谈论，对吧？ you know, there's other Protestants that you could be talking to or talking about, right?
而且，你知道，我... And, you know, I...
我记得和佩顿谈到唯一的教会就是公教会，你知道的，我们这一代 人受洗的证据，以及基督在圣餐中真实临在等等，他说：「是啊。 I remember talking to Peyton about the only church was the Catholic Church, you know, the evidence for baptism of our generation, and the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist and things of that nature, and he's like, "Yeah.
太棒了。」你知道吗？ That's awesome." You know?
而且，我认为有比很多人想象的更多的共同点。 And, I think there's a lot more common ground than a lot of people would think that there is.
你知道吗？ You know?
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
我想是从我以前的新教传统来看。 I guess from my former Protestant tradition.
所以- So-
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
我是说，就像在骨头上放点肉一样。 I mean, well, like, just maybe put some meat on the bones there.
周二，我参加了「堪萨斯人支持生命」宴会，有趣的是大主教做了开场祷告。 On Tuesday, I was at Kansans for Life Banquet, and it was funny because Archbishop was the opening prayer.
你知道，他没有以划十字圣号开始，因为他想尊重不是每个人都会觉得舒服。 And you know, he didn't begin with the sign of the cross because he wanted to respect that not everyone was going to be comfortable with that.
但随后的闭幕祷告是一位路德宗密苏里教区的牧师，他是以划十字圣号开始的。 But then the closing prayer was from an LCMS Lutheran who does begin at the sign of the cross.
我妻子说：「这是怎么回事？」就像这和我预期的不一样... And my wife was like, "What is going on?" Like this was not how I expected this to go...
在一个公教徒和新教徒的祷告之间。 between a Catholic and the Protestant prayer.
他还戴着完整的罗马领和其他一切，所以你... And he's got the full Roman collar and everything else so, you...
这足以让不熟悉路德宗的人注意到- It was enough for someone who wasn't familiar with Lutheranism to take note-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
并想，「那不是我接触到的新教，」或者你知道- and think, "That's not the kind of Protestantism I was exposed to," or you know-
是啊，没错。 Yeah, right.
... ...
? ?
对。 Right.
是啊，特别是在美国或堪萨斯或俄克拉荷马，你知道吗？ Well, no, especially in America or Kansas or Oklahoma, you know?
特别是在俄克拉荷马，我是说- Especially in Oklahoma, I mean-
是的。 Yeah.
没错。 Yeah.
... ...
你知道，你看到有人戴着罗马领，就会说：「哦，看那边那个公教徒，」你知道吗？ you know, you see someone with a collar and it's like, "Oh, look at that Catholic over there," you know?
对。 Right.
是啊。 Yeah.
没错。 Yeah.
嗯，我也经常听到这种说法。 Well, and I get enough of it too.
我... I...
我刚才说的- what I just said-
对一些人来说，就像是，你知道的，「所以你的意思是你只是个公教徒。」 To some people, it's like, you know, "So what you're saying is you're just a Catholic."
是啊。 Yeah.
对我来说，我们都要去同一个地方，所以... We're all going to the same place to me, so...
是啊，就像「欢迎来到炼狱」一样。 Yeah, like, "You're welcome into purgatory."
是的。 Yeah.
是的，鉴于最近乔·赫施迈尔和詹姆斯·怀特关于弥撒作为挽回 祭的辩论，在这种公教-新教辩证世界中引发了一些对话，关于 古典新教传统在多大程度上可以接受或拒绝弥撒作为祭献。 So yes, in light of this recent debate between Joe Heschmeyer and James White on the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice sparked some conversations in this kind of Catholic-Protestant apologetics world about to what extent classical Protestant traditions can accept or reject the mass as a sacrifice.
所以，我让你们来解析一下。 And so, I'll let you guys parse it out.
乔，你能简单解释一下我们公教徒说弥撒是挽回祭的意思吗？ Maybe Joe, would you give like a brief explanation of what Catholics mean when we affirm the mass as a propitiatory sacrifice?
然后佩顿，你可以拿路德宗的立场来对比一下。 And then Peyton, you could kind of contrast that with, you know, generally the Lutheran position.
好的，我想我可以。 Okay, yeah, I think I can do that.
我们称之为挽回祭，意思是，你知道的，任何受过洗 的人都可以献上赞美的祭，你可以奉献赞美的祭。 We would call it a propitiatory sacrifice, meaning that, you know, anyone can make a sacrifice of praise if you've been baptized, you can offer up sacrifices of praise.
弥撒就是这样，但不仅仅是这样。 And the mass is that, but it's not only that.
我们会说，它真实地就是基督的独一祭献，不是重复的，而是再现的。 We would say that it is in a true way, the one sacrifice of Christ, not repeated but represented.
《公教会教理》第1367条对此有一个相当简洁的定义 ，它说：「基督的祭献和圣餐的祭献是同一独一的祭献。 The Catechism has a good fairly succinct definition of this in 1367, Catechism of the Catholic Church where it says, "The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice.
祭品是同一的。 The victim is one and the same.
现在藉祭司的职务奉献的，就是那位曾在十字架上奉献自己的；只是奉献的方式不同。 The same now offers through the ministry of priests who then offered himself on the cross, only the manner of offering is different.
在弥撒中举行的这神圣祭献内，在十字架祭台上曾流血奉献自己的基督，如今也真实临在 ，并以不流血的方式被奉献，这祭献实在具有赎罪功效。」《公教会教理》 ，1367。所以这个概念是，在祭献中，如果你有一个适当的挽回祭的 祭献框架，仅仅为某些类别的祭献，包括图腾祭，特别是我认为最直接适用的逾越节羔羊 祭，杀死羔羊是不够的，你还要通过另一个行为，就是吃羔羊，成为祭献的参与者。 And since in this divine sacrifice which is celebrated in the mass the same Christ who offered himself once in a bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and is offered in an unbloody manner, this sacrifice is truly propitiatory." So the idea is this, that within sacrifice if you have a proper sacrificial framework for a propitiatory sacrifice it was not enough for certain categories of sacrifice including the totem sacrifice, including for, in special way the Passover sacrifice which I think is going to be the most directly applicable, you would kill the lamb and then you would become a partner in the sacrifice by another act which was eating the lamb.
所以杀羔羊非常明显预表了耶稣受难日，而吃羔羊，我们会说 ，是在此后每一台弥撒中最后晚餐的一个非常明确的预表。 And so the killing of the lamb is very clearly a prefigurement of Good Friday, and the eating of the lamb we would say is a very clear prefigurement of the Last Supper in every mass since.
所以因为它仍然是基督的独一祭献，我们仍在领受它。 And so because it is still Christ's one sacrifice we are still consuming it.
就像如果我们... Like if we...
当你... When you...
如果你生活在旧约时代，吃逾越节晚餐，你不是在重新 献祭羔羊，而是在参与前一天已经发生的那一次祭献。 If you were in the Old Testament and you were eating the Passover meal, you're not re-sacrificing the lamb, you are participating in that one sacrifice that has already happened the day before.
但它仍然是祭献的一部分。 But it is still part of the sacrifice.
所以在哥林多前书第10章，当圣保罗要解 释我们如何在基督内成为同伴时，他用这个作为例子之一。 And so on 1 Corinthians 10 when St. Paul wants to explain how it is we can become partners in Christ, he uses this as one of the examples.
然后他给出的另一个例子是在邪魔的祭献中成为同伴，这实际上更令人震惊。 And then the other example he gives is becoming a partner in a demonic sacrifice which is actually even more shocking.
但就是那个基本框架。 But it's that, that basic framework.
所以我们会说，它之所以是一个赎罪祭，是因为它分享了基督的独一祭献。 So we would say the reason it's a propitiatory sacrifice is because it's a sharing in the one sacrifice of Christ.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
那么佩顿，你完全不同意，对吧？ So Peyton, you completely disagree then, right?
好的，首先，我会在这里读一点。 Well, to start off, I'll be reading a little bit here.
我会低头看一下，参考一些内容，指出《奥格斯堡信条辩护论》第24条关于弥撒的内容。 I'll be looking down and glancing at a few things to reference, to point in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession Article 24 on the mass.
但真正要从整个祭献框架的事情开始说起，我们可以达成一致的是，这在与詹姆斯·怀 特的辩论中根本没有提到，对吧，也没有在与改革宗或类似的辩论中出现，就是，没错 ，作为路德宗，我们相信基督真实的身体和宝血也同在、内在、在其下于饼和酒中。 But really to start off with the whole sacrificial framework thing, well, the thing we can agree on which is, which doesn't really come up at all, like, in the debate with James White, right, nor any debates that occur with Reform or stuff like that, is, yes, as Lutherans we believe that Christ's real body and blood is also present, in, with, and under the bread and the wine.
所以饼和酒在那里，但基督的身体和宝血也在那里。 So the bread and the wine are there, but also Christ's body and blood are there.
所以你提到了整个赞美祭，对吧，感恩祭或圣餐祭。 So you mentioned the whole sacrifice of praise, right, sacrifice of thanksgiving or a Eucharistic sacrifice.
这真的是... That is really...
这里写了很多页，其中很多都是关于赎罪祭的区分，基督在十字架 上的祭献，当然，这发生了，已经发生了，然后是感恩祭，对吧？ There's a lot of pages that are written in here and a lot of them are about like that distinguishment of a propitiatory sacrifice, the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, of course, that occurs, that occurred, and then the Eucharistic sacrifice, right?
所以我们会说，整个弥撒，弥撒的整个仪式本身，我们保留下来。 And so we would say that, the whole, the mass, the entire order of the mass itself, we retain.
它甚至说：「一开始，我们必须再次作此初步声明：我们没有废除弥撒，而是虔诚地保 守并捍卫它。」所以，你在其他任何新教徒或类似的人那里，并没有真正看到这一点。 It even says, "At the outset, we must again make this preliminary statement: We do not abolish the mass, but religiously keep and defend it." So, you don't really see that with any other, if you were dealing with any other Protestants or stuff like that.
他们会说：「把整个东西都扔掉，」对吧？ They're going to say, "Get rid of the whole thing," right?
. .
但是，我们会说：「不，不，不，我们保留它，」但 是，你知道，当然，你不同意其中一些定义和内容。 But, we're like, "No, no, no, we keep it," but, you know, of course, you disagree with some of the definitions and stuff.
但是，是的... But yeah, the...
我们会说弥撒是一种祭献，但当然，我们会把它描述为感恩祭 ，以我们实际领受基督身体和宝血的益处的方式，你知道吗？ we would say the Mass is a sacrifice, but of course, we would describe it as that Eucharistic sacrifice, in the way that we are actually receiving the benefits of Christ's body and blood, you know?
那些有信心的人。 Those that have faith.
当然，如果你没有信心，你就是在吃喝自己的罪案和诅咒。 Of course, if you don't have faith, it's, you're eating and drinking damnation upon yourself and all that.
这不会像改革宗的观点，认为你甚至没有以某种属灵的方式领受基督的身体和宝血，对吧？ It wouldn't be like the Reformed idea that you're not even taking in some spiritual way Christ's body and blood, whatever, right?
我们会说：「不，你实际上是在领受基督的身体和宝血，」那就是在 饼和酒中、同在、在其下的基督的身体和宝血，就是在十字架上的。 We'd say, "No, you're actually receiving Christ's body and blood," and that is Christ's Body and Blood that's in, with, and under the bread and wine that was on the cross.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
你正在领受那些益处，所有这些，对吧，这就是细微差别所在，但我们会... You're receiving those very benefits, all of that, right, and that's where the nuance comes, but we would...
我们不同意这样的观点，就是那一刻，祝圣的话语，然后整个垂直理解的奉 献，以及所有那些东西，赎罪祭和随之而来的圣事因其施行而有效的说法。 we disagree on the idea that, that one moment right there, the words of consecration and then the whole kind of vertical understanding of the offering up and all that kind of stuff, the propitiatory sacrifice and the ex opera operato kind of language with it.
分歧就在这里。 That's where that disagreement hits.
祭献的语言仍然存在，就像你所说的感恩祭，以及基督的身体和宝血，其益处，比如赦罪？ The sacrificial language still remains in terms of that Eucharistic sacrifice like you gave, and Christ's body and blood, the benefits of that, like the forgiveness of sins?
我们说是的，当你在那里领受基督的身体和宝血时， 那真的是他的身体和宝血，你正在领受罪的赦免。 We say yes, when you receive Christ's body and blood right there, it's really His body and blood, and you are receiving the forgiveness of sins.
那么，我能就此问几个问题吗？因为我对路德宗神学肯定了解得少。 So, can I actually ask a couple questions on this 'cause I'm certainly less versed in Lutheran theology.
我的意思是，我在一个非常福音派的世界中长大，所以我的意思是。 I mean, partly I grew up in a very Evangelical world, so, I mean.
对。 Right.
... ...
我认识一些路德宗信徒，但我不声称有任何专业知识。 I've known some Lutherans, but I don't claim any kind of expertise.
有几件事情作为问题突然出现在我脑海。 The, a couple things that pop out just as questions.
可能很无知。 It might be very ignorant.
第一，如果它是一个奉献，对吧？ Number one, if it is an offering, right?
它是一个祭献的奉献，听起来我们在这一点上是 一致的，它是基督的身体和宝血，那会... It is a sacrificial offering, sounds like we agree on that, and it is the body and blood of Christ, what would...
听起来你是在说，它是把基督的身体和宝血真实地奉献给天父，但不是 他在十字架上奉献的方式，或不是他在十字架上一次性奉献的一部分？ it sounds like you're saying it is the true offering of Christ's body and blood to the Father, but not the way He offered it on the cross or not part of the one time He offered it on the cross?
那实际上更像是基督的再次祭献。 That actually seems more like a re-sacrifice of Christ.
所以，当我说把整个奉献给天父，那种事情时，我提到的是罗马公教的那种理解。 So, when I said that whole, the offering up to the Father, that kind of thing, I was mentioning, with Roman Catholic kind of, with an understanding in that.
好的，所以它是一个祭献，但不是奉献，还是说它是一个奉献？ Okay, so it is a sacrifice, but it's not an offering or it is an offering?
嗯，不是，面包和酒，通常使用的是这样，有些人可能会回避它， 甚至在某些地方提到，由于误解而回避某些措辞和内容，对吧？ Well, so no, so the bread and the wine, what's used is like the typically, and some people might shy away from it, and it even mentions it in some places, like shying away from some of the verbiage and stuff because of misunderstandings, right?
但可以说，面包和酒被带到祭坛上，就是以那种方式献祭，对吧？ But one could say that like the bread and the wine, right, being brought there onto the altar is that sacrifice in that way, right?
但是，那个，那与整个祷告和感恩有关，比如领 受神的恩典和这些恩典的方式是祭献的一部分。 But then, that, and that kind of goes with the whole, the prayers and the thanksgivings, like the reception of the God's grace and these means of grace is part of that sacrifice.
但我们从中看到的，比如圣事神学，比如领受基督身体和宝血的理解将是... But what we see with it, like the sacramentology, like the understanding of receiving Christ's body and blood is going to be that the...
当牧师在那里，当神父在那里，不管他们怎么说，在祭坛前，祝圣发生时，基 督设立圣餐的话语被诵读，是天父将圣子，将身体和宝血带到那个祭坛上。 when the minister is there, when the priest is there, pastor, however they say this, at the altar, and the consecration occurs, Christ's words of institution are said, it's the Father bringing down the Son, the body and blood to that altar.
那时和现在一样，这是一份礼物，一份赐给忠实基督徒的白白的礼物。 Then as now, it is a gift, that free gift that is given to the faithful Christians.
所以神父的工作方式就是这样，几乎就像是中间人，我不喜欢用这个词，但 是你有从天父到祭坛，赐给人的过程，不一定是将基督举起或类似的事情。 So that's how the priest works, is that almost like the middle man right there, and I hate to use that word, but you have the, from the Father down to the altar, given to the people, not necessarily a raising up of Christ or something like that.
有意思。 Interesting.
所以听起来历史悠久的弥撒有一半以这种意义被保留下来。 So it sounds like half of the historic Mass has been contained in that sense.
我的意思是，举个例子，古罗马正典可能与此略有不同。 I mean, to give you an example, and the ancient Roman canon might be slightly different than this.
现存的措辞方式，比如圣餐颂歌1，我认为是对历 史罗马正典相当忠实的保留，有两组祭献的语言。 The way the words are in the existing, like Eucharistic Prayer 1, which is, I think a pretty faithful preservation of the historic Roman canon, has the kind of two sets of sacrificial language.
你知道，正如你所说，当面包和酒被奉上时，那是来自人民的祭献奉献。 You know, as you say, when the bread and wine are brought forth, that is a sacrificial offering from the people.
对。 Right.
所以神父在，我是说，我们甚至称之为奉献礼- So the priest, during, I mean, we even call it the offertory-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
然后神父祈祷神悦纳和祝福这些礼物，这些奉献，这些神圣无瑕的祭品，用的是复数形式。 and then the priest prays that God will accept and bless these gifts, these offerings, these holy and unblemished sacrifices and it's sacrifices plural.
它说的是我们奉献给神的东西。 And it's talking about what we're offering to God.
好的。 Okay.
然后，我们在那之后奉献赞美祭。 And then, we offer a sacrifice of praise after that.
但是，在祝圣之后，我们提到永生的圣饼和永恒救恩的圣爵，求你以慈祥和和善 的面容垂顾这些奉献，就如你曾悦纳你仆人义人亚伯尔的礼物，我们信心之父亚 巴郎的祭献，和你的大祭司麦基瑟德的奉献，一个无瑕疵祭品的神圣祭献。 But then, after the consecration, we refer to the Holy Bread of eternal life and the chalice of everlasting salvation, be pleased to look upon these offerings with this serene and kindly countenance as once you were pleased to accept the gifts of your servant, Abel the just, the sacrifice of Abraham, our father in faith, and the offering of your high priest Melchizedek, a holy sacrifice of spotless victim.
所以现在我们谈论的是基督，而不是面包和酒。 And so now we're talking about Christ, not about the bread and wine.
所以语言上有那种转变，我认为那是这个祷告的古老结构。 And so there's that shift in the language, and that is, I think, the ancient structure of the prayer.
所以似乎有这样的概念，我们既奉献人手的工作，你知道 的，把面包和酒奉献给神，但在祝圣之后又奉献耶稣。 So it seems like the sort of notion that we are both making an offering of the work of human hands, you know, the bread and wine to God, but then after the consecration are offering Jesus.
听起来，如果我理解正确的话，你是说你们保留了第一部分- And it sounds like, if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying you retain that first part-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
我们奉献面包和酒，你们保留了基督以某种方式身 体临在的观点，即使我们在方式上可能有分歧。 we are offering bread and wine, and you retain that somehow Christ becomes bodily present, even if we, you know, disagree on the, maybe the mode of it.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但不再有那种我们把天父自己的圣子奉献给他的意识。 But there's no longer a sense of then we're offering to the Father, you know, His own Son.
对，那部分-那部分- Right, that part- that part-
是那样... Is that...
对吗？ is that right?
是的，你说得对。 Yeah, you would have that correct.
是的，所以在我们的... Yeah, and so like in our...
我来读一下，无论我们什么时候举行，通常都是在... I'll just read, so whenever we conduct, it's typically like in a, in...
写在这里的，是神圣礼仪... when it's written right here, it's the divine service....
是标题，但弥撒也是使用的，对吧？ is the title, but M- Mass as well d- is also used, right?
就在祝圣词之前，有这个祷告。 Right before the- the words of consecration, you have this prayer.
它被称为感恩祷告。 It's called a Prayer of Thanksgiving.
我们有大约五种不同的设置可以用于不同内容的弥撒。 And we have, like, five different settings that can be used for the Mass of different stuff.
但这个感恩祷告有点类似地呼应了，你知道的，就在之前诵读的圣餐颂歌之类的一切。 But this Prayer of Thanksgiving kind of echoes similarly, you know, the- the- like, the Eucharistic prayers that are said right before and everything.
是的。 Yeah.
它说... It says...
如果你不介意我读一下，它说：「天地的主啊，你是应当称颂的，因为你怜悯了你 所创造的人，并差遣你的独生子取了我们的肉身，担当我们的罪，作我们的救主。 If you wouldn't mind me reading this, it says, "Blessed are you, Lord of heaven and earth, for you have had mercy on those whom you created and sent your only begotten Son into our flesh to bear our sin and be our savior.
我们以悔改的喜乐，领受他在十字架上以身体和宝血的全备祭献为我们成就的救恩。 With repentant joy, we receive the salvation accomplished for us by the all availing sacrifice of His body and His blood on the cross.
我们奉耶稣的名聚集，记念他，恳求你，主啊，以你的话语和圣灵赦免、更新、坚固我们。 Gathered in the name and the remembrance of Jesus, we beg you, O Lord, to forgive, renew and strengthen us with your word and spirit.
求你赐恩，使我们忠心地吃他的身体，喝他的血，正如他在自己的约中吩咐我们做的。 Grant us faithfully to eat His body and drink His blood as He bids us do in His own testament.
我们祈求，从地极召聚我们，与众圣徒一同庆贺羔羊和他国度的婚筵，那是无穷无尽的。 Gather us together, we pray, from the ends of the earth to celebrate with all the faithful the marriage feast of the Lamb and His kingdom, which has no end.
恩慈地悦纳我们的祷告，拯救和保守我们。」你们- Graciously receive our prayers, deliver and preserve us." Did you guys-
很好。 Nice.
是的，前三分之二似乎很接近。 Yeah, it does seem like the first two thirds are were close.
你知道，就像我们有某种共同的理解。 You know, like, we have kind of a common understanding.
某种祭献或赞美，奉献，你知道，就像我们在奉献礼部分收捐献有原因一样。 Some kind of sacrifice or praise, a bringing up of, you know, like there's a reason we do the collection during the offertory part.
对。 Right.
就像我们把生命的初熟果子奉献给神一样。 Like, we are giving the first fruits of our life to God.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
然后在某种程度上，他会改变那个，使我们有限 的祭献，我们会说，与他圣子完美的祭献相连。 And then in some way, He is going to transform that, so that our limited sacrifice, we would say, would be connected with the perfect sacrifice of His Son.
是的，我想我明白了。 Yeah, I guess I understand.
我很想知道你是如何理解这一点的。 I would be curious as to how you make sense of that.
我们的祭献有没有办法与基督的祭献联合起来？ Is there a way that our sacrifices then become united with the sacrifice of Christ?
我想给一个好答案，但我不知道我是否有一个好答案- I want to give, like, a good answer, and I don't know if I have a good answer for that-
当然。 Sure.
不，那是-那是- No, that's, that's-
... ...
在此时此刻。 at this exact moment.
我不想说一些我知道可能... I don't wanna, like, talk and say something that I know is probably...
我不想撒谎，你知道吗？ I don't wanna lie, you know?
他很快就会接到神学院打来的电话。 He's gonna get a call from the seminary here pretty soon.
是啊，或者有人会评论说：「悲哀。」 Yeah, or somebody's gonna comment and say, "Mornful."
是的。 Yeah.
就让这扇门被撞开，然后... Just get this door just busted in and...
离开这里。 Get outta here.
会有一些路德宗信徒看到评论说：「哇。」就像「那是-那是错的。 Some- there's gonna be some Lutherans getting comments and go, "Wow." Like, "That was- that was wrong.
顺便说一下，你被举报了，」之类的。 And by the way, you're reported," or something.
不，那不会发生的。 No, that's not gonna happen.
但我知道我宁愿和五旬节派通电话，他们只是- But I know I'd prefer to get on a call with Pentecostals who are just-
不，不是。 No, no.
我不是要在这个问题上纠缠什么的。 I don't mean to beat on this drum or anything.
... ...
对的，不说错误的话。 right and- and not say something incorrect.
对。 Right.
嗯，它... Um, it...
所以有... So there's...
抱歉，什么？ I'm sorry, what?
所以澄清一下问题，抱歉。 So clarifying question, sorry.
对于路德宗的立场，是不是在饼酒祝圣之后，就像 是基督自己被奉献给神，给天父，为了赦免罪过？ For the Lutheran position, is it, you know, after the consecration of the elements, is it like Christ Himself being offered to God, to God the Father for the forgiveness of sins?
还是某种... Or is it some sort...
就像，我想，在祭献中奉献的是什么？ Like, what is being offered in the sacrifice, I suppose?
所以不是为了... So it's not that for...
不是说在祭坛上的基督以那种方式被奉献给天父。 It's not like that Christ there on the altar is being offered up to the Father in that way at all.
我们不是从那个意义上来看待它的。 And that's not how we view it in that sense.
每当我提到整个，天父让圣子在那里，你知道的，在祭坛上有身体和 宝血，然后那个礼物现在在祭坛的圣事中，在圣餐中，信徒们领受。 Whenever I mention the whole, the Father having the Son there in the, you know, down to the altar with body and blood there, and then that gift that is now in the sacrament of the altar, the Eucharist, that the faithful partake in.
在那一点上，就像祭献仍在继续，但它仍然是感恩祭。 At that point, that's where, like, the sacrifice still continues, but it's still that Eucharistic sacrifice.
因为即使是，是的，你以口领受基督的身体和宝血，为了赦罪，为了坚固信心。 'Cause even like, yeah, you're receiving orally Christ's body and blood for the forgiveness of sins, for the strengthening of faith.
你领受的，就像所有这些，那仍然在那里，对吧？ Your receiving, like all that, that still is there, right?
这整个... This whole...
但整个观点是... But the whole idea of it's this...
它就像是对髑髅地的再现，而且它是另一个-那是赎罪的，那个方面没有被认可。 it's like a representation of Calvary and that it's another- that's something propitiatory, that aspect is not recognized.
那部分没有被认可。 That part is not recognized.
我想知道从犹太人感恩祭，即赎愆祭的角度来谈这个问题是否值得。 I wonder if it'd be worth talking about this from the perspective of the Jewish sacrifice of thanksgiving, the totah sacrifice.
我不知道你是否做过相关工作或熟悉这方面。 I don't know if this is something you've done any work on or are familiar with.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但这是我们用来理解为什么这既是赞美祭又是赎罪祭的模型之一。 But this is one of the models we would look to for making sense of why this would be both a sacrifice of praise and propitiatory.
是的。 Yeah.
在这种情况下，与逾越节相关的赎愆祭，当然也与 最后的晚餐相关，在犹太框架内提供了一种结构。 That the totah sacrifice connected with, you know, the Passover in this case, connected with the Last Supper, of course, gives kind of a structure in a Jewish framework.
但如果这是一个...我不想在这条路上走得太远。 But I don't wanna go too far down that road if this is something where...
我不想让你措手不及，把你带到一个你不...的方向。 I don't wanna kind of catch you off guard and take you in a direction you're not...
我有，我有... I have, I have...
所以在《辩护论》中，它花了几页的篇幅，所以 我试图突出一些内容，这样我就不只是读几页。 So in the Apology, it spends, spends a couple pages, so I tried to highlight stuff so I wasn't just reading a couple pages.
当它很全面的时候，有点难。 It's kind of hard when it's just comprehensive.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但它花时间谈论，玛拉基谈到祭祀。 But it spends time talking about, Malachi speaking about sacrifices.
是的。 Yeah.
它花了一些时间谈论但以理书第8章和第12章中的每日献祭。 It spends some time speaking about, Daniel 8 and 12 with the daily sacrifice.
它说：「只要包括整个弥撒，我们就很容易允许将弥撒理解为每日献祭。 It says, "We readily allow the Mass to be understood as a daily sacrifice as long as that includes the entire Mass.
包括宣讲福音、信心、祈求和感恩的仪式。 The ceremony with the preaching of the gospel, faith, invocation and thanksgiving.
这些结合在一起，就是新约的每日献祭，因为弥 撒或主的晚餐的仪式就是因这些事而设立的。 Joined together, these are a daily sacrifice of the New Testament because the ceremony of the Mass or the Lord's Supper was set up because of these things.
弥撒不能与它们分开。 The Mass is not to be separated from them.
但不能从这个利未祭的类型中看出，我们将讨论这一点，一个通过外在工作 称义的仪式是必要的，或者应该为别人施行，使他们可以赚得罪的赦免。 But it cannot be shown from this Levitical type, we'll get into that, that a ceremony justifying by the outward work is necessary or should be applied on behalf of others, that it may merit the forgiveness of sins for them.
好的。 Okay.
我认为这给了我们一个很好的讨论方向。 I think that gives us a pretty good avenue to go.
好的。 Okay.
但以理书第8章，我猜那里的参考是但以理书8:11？ Daniel 8, the reference there, I assume is to Daniel 8:11?
是的。 Yep.
但以理书8:11，然后是但以理书12:11。 Daniel 8:11 and then Daniel 12:11.
好的。 Okay.
所以这是当时的观点，我知道你今天会发现一些公教徒 持这种观点，就是有这些关于每日献祭被废除的预言。 So this was the view, and I know you'll find Catholics who take this today, that there are these foretellings of the daily sacrifice being taken away.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但以理书12:11说：「从除掉常献的燔祭，并设立那行毁坏可憎的，必有一千二 百九十日。」现在，我要强调一点，这种末世启示录式的意象是开放给许多解释的。 So Daniel 12:11 says, "And from the time that the continual burnt offering is taken away and the abomination that makes desolate is set up, there shall be 1,290 days." Now, I'll caveat this heavily by saying this kind of eschatological apocalyptic imagery is open to a lot of interpretations.
但其中一种常见的理解方式是，我们基督徒每天都向神献祭。 But one of the common ways it was understood was, we as Christians offer daily offering to God.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
而且，你知道，敌基督要用那行毁坏可憎的来制止这一切。 And, you know, the Antichrist is going to put a stop to this with the abomination of desolation and all of that.
所以这是一种观点，就像停止弥撒的每日献祭。那... So it's a view of, like, stopping the daily sacrifice of the Mass. That...
我认为这个背景解释了但以理书第8章和第12章的参考。 I think that background makes sense of the Daniel 8 and Daniel 12 references.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
我脑海中立即浮现的问题是，再次说明，这是一个真诚的无知问题。 And the question that immediately popped into my mind, and again, this is a genuine question of ignorance.
如果一个人持有这种观点... If one takes the view...
好吧，我该怎么... Well, okay, how do I...
好的，我现在就说，你告诉我哪里错了。 Okay, I'll just say this now, you tell me where I'm wrong.
似乎即使按照路德宗的说法，也不得不说从历史上的某个时刻开始，世界各地 或已知世界的每日弥撒都是以这种赎罪的理解来进行的，这种理解与路德宗神 学不符，路德对私弥撒肯定有非常强烈的言论，认为这些是该诅咒的等等。 It seems like even on the Lutheran account, one would have to say from some point in history forward, every daily mass around the world, or you know, around the known world, was done with this propitiatory understanding, was done with this understanding that doesn't sit with Lutheran theology, that certainly the private masses, Luther had very strong things to say about how these were damnable and all this.
如果我们认为但以理书第8章和第12章在谈论 停止每日献祭，似乎必须有两件事之一是真的。 If we take Daniel 8 and Daniel 12 to be talking about stopping the daily sacrifice, it would seem that one of two things would seemingly have to be true.
要么路德宗是对的，在某个时候早期基督徒停止奉献真正的每日献祭，开始奉献 一些该诅咒的骗局，要么路德宗试图做的是停止每日献祭，代之以其他东西。 Either Lutherans are right and at some point the early Christians stopped offering the true daily sacrifice and started offering some damnable sham, or what Lutherans were trying to do was to stop the daily sacrifice in lieu of something else.
但无论哪种方式，他们... But either way, they...
如果是那样的话，似乎把赌注提高到了一个几乎是启示录般的水平... it would seem like it raises the stakes to an almost apocalyptic level if that's...
就像《奥格斯堡信条辩护论》将但以理书第8章和第1 2章与基督徒每日的礼仪性献祭联系起来是正确的。 Like if the Apology of the Augsburg Confession is right in tying Daniel 8 and 12 to the daily liturgical sacrifice of Christians.
是啊，这是一个有趣的事情要考虑，对吧？ Yeah, that's an interesting thing to consider, right?
而且，你知道，我是路德宗，所以我不得不说是第一个。 And, you know, I'm Lutheran so I'm gonna have to say it's the first one.
会有很多路德宗信徒会说，比如：「哇，哇，哇。 And there'll be a lot of Lutherans that will say, like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa.
等等。 Hold on.
就像，我们在这方面必须更加合一。」或者类似... Like, we gotta be a little more ecumenical here about that." Or like...
但那肯定会是... But that would definitely be...
我的意思是，在我没有更深入研究之前，坦率地 说，这就是但以理书第8章问题的立场所在。 I mean, without me looking into it a little bit more, that would be where it stands quite frankly on the matter of Daniel 8.
我知道在引用每日献祭时也提到了但以理书第8章、第12章和出埃及记第29章。 And I know Daniel 8 and Daniel 12 and Exodus 29 are mentioned in this citing also the daily sacrifices.
它... It...
我读到的就是它所说的，关于这个问题它真的只说了这 些，然后转到民数记28章谈论每日献祭的三个部分。 What I read is what it said, that's all it really said on the matter, and then it moved to Numbers 28 talking about three parts of the daily sacrifice.
好的。 Okay.
然后它当然谈到了玛拉基书1章和3章。 And then it, of course talks about Malachi 1 and then Malachi 3.
然后它转到了一些不同的领域。 And then it moves into some different areas.
它确实... It does...
它有点跳来跳去，谈到一些关于祭祀和旧约中祭祀图景的事情，然后... it kinda jumps around to some of those things about sacrifice and the Old Testament picture of sacrifice and then...
实际上，它还谈到了一些早期教父对此的看法。 Actually, it also talks about what the early church fathers, a few of them said about that as well.
是的，这会... Yeah, which would...
我猜... I guess...
好的。 Okay.
好吧，也许为了结束启示录的部分，我们可以转向教父们？ Well, maybe to cap off the apocalyptic part, then we can turn to the church fathers?
是的。 Yeah.
听起来不错吧？ That, that sound good?
是的。 Yeah.
我认为... I think the...
我不介意你说「你们摒弃了真正的敬拜」之类的话 。但我确实认为有必要认识到这种说法有多极端- I'm not offended by you saying, like, "You guys got rid of true worship." But I do think it's worth recognizing how extreme the claim is-
对。 Right.
... ...
在但以理书的语境中，这是引发启示录和世界末日的事情。 in that, in the context of Daniel this is the thing that triggers the apocalypse and the end of the world.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
再说一次，如果奥格斯堡对它的解读是正确的，你会发现一些教 父的解读也说，是的，弥撒已经停止了，这就引发了启示录。 Again, if the Augsburg reading of it is correct, and you'll find some Patristic reading that also says, yes, the mass has stopped, this kind of triggers the apocalypse.
现在已经过去500年了，启示录还没有发生，而且自从路德 宗说正确的祭祀停止以来，已经过去了我不知道多少个世纪。 It's now been 500 years and the apocalypse hasn't happened, and it's been I don't know how many centuries since a Lutheran would say that proper sacrifice stopped.
就像，如果你说最早期的基督徒对弥撒有路德宗的理解，在某个时 候，每个人都必须承认，这显然不是宗教改革之初对弥撒的理解， 而且在那之前很长很长一段时间里，似乎也不是对弥撒的理解。 Like, if you say the earliest Christians had a Lutheran understanding of the mass, at some point everybody's got to concede that that is clearly not the understanding of the mass at the dawn of The Reformation and doesn't seem like it was the understanding of the mass for a long, long time before that.
就像它... Like, it...
我的意思是，我想这将很好地过渡到教父们。 And I mean, and I guess that'll segue us nicely into the church fathers.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
我们有那么多明确的参考资料表明他们谈论它是赎罪的，如果有人说那行毁 坏可憎的和每日献祭的结束发生在，我不知道，350年左右，是... That we have so many just clear references to them talking about it as propitiatory that if one says the abomination of desolation and the ending of the daily sacrifice happened in, I don't know, 350 or something, is...
我很好奇，如果它没有立即变成基督的再来，人们如何理解那种末世论。 I'm curious as to how one makes sense of that eschatology in light of it not then immediately turning into the return of Christ.
嗯，我们甚至不会... Well, and we wouldn't even...
当然... And of course...
我知道350只是个随机... I know 350's just like a rand-...
就像一个随机的章节- It's just like a random chapter-
当然，我只是随便说一个历史数字。 Sure, I'm literally just throwing out a number for history.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
我不会说-特别是325年，君士坦丁，对吧？ I wouldn't say like- Especially 325, Constantine, right?
是啊，没错，君士坦丁创建了公教会... Yeah, well, yeah, Constantine created the Catholic Church- ...
所以，你知道的。 so, you know.
你们所有的新教徒都要回到妈妈那里，你知道的，就像斯蒂芬·亨德森说的那样。 And all you Protestants that are gonna return to mama, you know, like Stephen Henderson said.
但是，是的。 But, yeah.
我期待着那些不明白这是个玩笑的人在评论中。 I'm looking forward to the people who don't understand that was a joke in the comments.
是啊。 Yeah.
是的。 Yeah.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
会有的，是的。 It's gonna be, yeah.
所以，希望他们观看-我觉得这个视频的评论区会非常有趣。 So, hopefully they watch- The comment section's gonna be very entertaining on this video, I think.
是的，我为跳来跳去感到抱歉。 Yeah, and I apologize for jumping around a little bit.
我只是尽我所能做了很多研究，而不只是停留在- I just, I tried to do as much research as I could without just staying-
当然。 Sure.
... ...
说些东西，只是... saying stuff, and it's just been...
我-我这周有点- Y- my week's been a little-
不，看- No, look-
... ...
令人痛苦，所以- wrenching, so-
... ...
我在准备辩论时非常理解你的处境，想着「这场对话可能会朝哪些方向发展？」 I was very much in your shoes when I was getting ready for the debate thinking, "What are all of the possible ways this conversation could go?"
对，是的。 Right, yeah.
在这次对话中我有个优势，就是我已经做了很多那种背景性的东西，所以- And I had the advantage in this conversation that I'd already done a lot of that, that kind of background stuff, so-
对，我正要说- Right, I was gonna say-
... ...
我感同身受。 I feel your pain there.
是的，不，我想呈现它... Yeah, no, and I want to present it...
你知道，我不想... You know, I don't wanna...
我想以一种...的方式呈现它... I wanna present it in a way that's...
我不想不诚实地说，「哦，是的，这就是我们要说的，」然 后突然间我错了，然后我告诉你错了，其他人也都看错了。 I don't wanna be dishonest and say, "Oh, yeah, this is what we're saying," and all of a sudden I'm wrong and then I'm telling you wrong and everyone else is seeing wrong.
我只是想呈现它... I just wanna present it...
所以有些东西我会说，「嘿，对不起。 So there's gonna be some stuff I'll say like, "Hey, I'm sorry.
我没有最好的答案，」我只是想诚实一点。 I don't have the best answer for it," and I just wanna be honest.
当然，当然，当然。 Sure, sure, sure.
我不想只是说话，因为我知道很多时候很容易就说，「嗯，我不... I don't wanna just talk, 'cause I know a lot of times it's easy to just say, "Well, I don't...
我知道我不知道，但我要说啊说啊说啊」「... I know I don't know, but I'm gonna talk and talk and talk" "...
听起来好像我知道，」对吧？ and sound like I know," right?
但是，在我们跳到教父那里之前，你介意我们谈一点玛拉基书吗？ But, before we jump into the church fathers, do you mind if we talk a little bit about Malachi a bit?
好的，当然。 Please, yeah.
我觉得那很好。 I think that's great.
好的，如果可以的话，我要读一点梅兰希顿在《辩护论》中写 的内容，只是为了确保清楚这不是我的话，不是我的教会- Okay, so I'm gonna read a little bit of what Melanchthon wrote in here with The Apology if that's all right, just to make sure it's clear it's not my words, it's not my church-
当然。 Sure.
... ...
信条。 confessions.
所以没有人，让记录显示- So no one, let the record show-
预言家梅兰希顿。 Prophesy Melanchthon.
是的。 Yes.
是的，圣梅兰希顿正在阐明这一点，没错。 Yes, Saint Melanchthon is making this clear, yes.
他在我们的圣人日历中，过分了。 He's in our calendar of saints, excessive.
哦天哪，哦不。 Oh man, oh no.
玛拉基谈到这些祭祀，你知道那节经文，你知道章节。 Malachi speaks about these sacrifices and you know the verse, you know the chapter verse.
是玛拉基书1章11节的第一部分。 It's Malachi 1, verse 11 is this first part.
「从日出之地到日落之处，我的名在外邦中必尊为大。在各 处，人必奉我的名烧香，献洁净的供物。」对手们... "For from the rising of the sun to its setting, my name will be great among the nations and in every place, incense will be offered to my name and a pure offering." The adversaries...
我只是... I'm just...
对手们是错的... The adversaries are wrong- ...
对任何听到这个的人来说，布雷登已经知道了，我知道你也知道。 for anyone hearing this, and Brayden already knows, and I know you know that.
但对所有听众来说，我只是在说事实。 But for everyone listening, I'm just saying how it is.
「对手们曲解地将这段经文应用于弥撒，并引用教父们的权威。 "The adversaries perversely apply this passage to the Mass and quote the authority of the fathers.
然而，回应很容易。 A reply, however, is easy.
即使这段经文最特别地谈到弥撒，弥撒因外在行为而称 义，或当施于他人时，就赚得罪的赦免，也没有意义。 Even if this passage spoke most particularly about the Mass, it would not make sense the Mass justifies by the outward act, or that when applied to others, it merits the forgiveness of sins.
先知对那些修士和哲学家粗鲁编造的事情没有任何表 示。」「此外，先知们表达的话语本身就有意义。 The prophet says nothing about those things that the monks and philosophers rudely make up." "Besides, the very word the prophets express has meaning.
首先，他的话是这样说的。 First, his words say this.
『主的名必尊为大。』好的，我们同意。 'The name of the Lord will be great.'" Okay, we agree.
「这是藉着宣讲福音成就的。 "This is accomplished by the preaching of the gospel.
藉着这宣讲，基督的名被人知晓，在基督里应许的天父的怜悯被认识。 Through this preaching, Christ's name is made known and the Father's mercy, promised in Christ, is recognized.
福音的宣讲在那些接受福音的人心中产生信心。」你知道的，罗马书第10章。 The preaching of the gospel produces faith in those who receive the gospel." You know, Romans chapter 10.
「他们呼求神，感谢神，为他们的认信忍受患难，并为基督的荣耀行善。 "They call upon God, give thanks to God, bear troubles for their confession, and produce good works for Christ's glory.
这样，主的名在外邦人中就成为尊大。 So the name of the Lord becomes great among the Gentiles.
因此，香和洁净的供物不是指外在行为的仪式， 而是指所有那些使主的名成为尊大的祭祀，即 Therefore, incense and a pure offering means not a ceremony by the outward act, but all those sacrifices through which the name of the Lord becomes great, i.e.
信心、祈求、福音的宣讲、正确的认信等等。 faith, invocation, the preaching of the gospel, right confession and so on.
如果有人要让这个词包括弥撒的仪式，我们很容易承认，只 要他既不单单理解仪式，也不教导仪式因外在行为而有益。 If anyone would have this term include the ceremony of the Mass, we readily concede it, provided he neither understands the ceremony alone nor teaches that the ceremony benefits by the outward act.
我们把话语的宣讲包括在赞美的祭祀中，就是在对神的赞美中，所以 领受主的晚餐本身可以是赞美或感恩，但它不是因外在行为而称义。 We include the preaching of the word among the sacrifices of praise, that is among the praises of God, so the reception itself of the Lord's supper can be praise or thanksgiving, but it does not justify by the outward act.
它也不应施于他人，为他们赚得罪的赦免。 Neither is it to be applied to others to merit the forgiveness of sins for them.
玛拉基谈到新约的所有事奉，而不仅仅是主的晚餐。 Malachi speaks about all the services of the New Testament, and not only about the Lord's supper.
同样地，因为他不赞同法利赛人关于外在行为的观点，他不 是反对我们，而是帮助我们。」玛拉基书第一章就是这样。 Likewise, since he does not favor the pharisaic opinion of the outward act, he is not against us, but rather helps us." That's it on Malachi chapter one.
这很有趣，因为他似乎真的淡化了与弥撒的联系，然后说，「嗯，我的意思是 ，也许它可以是弥撒，只要你不以非常公教的方式理解它。」这公平吗... That's interesting, 'cause he seems to really downplay the connection to the Mass, and then says, "Well, I mean, maybe it could be the Mass, as long as you don't understand it in a very Catholic way." Is that a fair...
我会... And I will...
这是公平的。 That is fair.
我会... And I will...
这也是我想提出的一点，对此我也要诚实。 And that's something I wanted to bring up, too, just to be honest with this as well.
你会读到，我知道在... You'll read, and I know that in...
你可能看到了，我知道在你与詹姆斯·怀特辩论后制作的关于-的视频中 You probably saw, and I know in the video that you made right after that debate with James White about the-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
圣餐的中心地位，弥撒和所有那些东西，以及新教，或 者，你知道，路德和他说的关于弥撒的事情，对吧。 centrality of the Eucharist, the Mass and all that kind of stuff, and Protestant, or, you know, Luther and things he said, right, about the Mass.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
虽然我在那里实际上引用错了。 Although I actually got a miscitation in there.
我不知道我有没有提到过。 I don't know if I mentioned that or not.
哦，真的吗？ Oh, really?
我说，巴比伦囚虏。 I said, Babylonian captivity.
不是。 No.
我说了什么... What did I...
我把这两个搞混了- I get these two confused-
自由的爱，克里斯。 Free love, Chris.
... ...
经常。 constantly.
不，是... No, it was...
哦，糟糕。 Oh, shoot.
好吧，我又要搞砸了。 Okay, I'm even gonna screw it up again.
我说意志的束缚，但我的意思是巴比伦囚虏。 I said bondage of the will, and I meant Babylonian captivity.
好的。 Okay.
囚虏，束缚的事情，我明白了- The captivity, bondage thing, I got it-
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
在我脑子里搞反了。 backwards in my head.
是啊，他就像是在吐出一些那样的东西。 Yeah, he was like spitting some of those out.
而且就像，我明白。 And it's like, I get it.
是的。 Yeah.
没错。 That's right.
所以我想说- So I wanna say-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
如果你去看《奥格斯堡信条》中的《小要理问答》- if you go to the Small Called Articles in the Aug- in M-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
在《协同书》中，《小要理问答》是信条中单独的一组条款，这是那种事情，你知道当 你通读圣经时，它会说「希律」，然后在使徒行传中，大约10节之后又说「希律」？ In the Book of Concord, Small Called Articles are the separate set of articles that are in the confessions, it's one of those things where, you know when you're reading through, like, the Bible and it goes, like, "Herod," and then it says, "Herod" in Acts, like, 10 verses later?
但当你真正知道那是两个不同的希律。 But when you, when you actually know it's two different Herods.
是的。 Yeah.
对吧？ Right?
但你会说，「哦，我没...」这就像是存在的一个语境问题，而 且也有点麻烦，因为这既有拉丁文也有德文，然后现在是英文。 But you're like, "Oh, I didn't..." It's like this contextual thing that exists, and it's also kind of troubling because this was both in Latin and in German, and then now the English.
所以有语言，有语境和诸如此类的东西。 So there was, there was language and there were context and stuff like that.
你说得对。 And you're right.
他... He...
就像在《小要理问答》或路德的一些引文中，他们会使用这个词，他们会使用同一个词，即 It's like in the Small Called Articles or some of the quotes from Luther, they will use the word, they'll use the same word, i.e.
弥撒，当说到他们相信罗马如何歪曲了某些东西，罗马做错了什么时，他们 不会说，比如，他们不会说「那是错误的弥撒」或「那是正确的弥撒」。 Mass, when saying something about how they believe that Rome has perverted something and Rome's doing something wrong, and they won't say, like, they won't say, like, "wrong Mass for that" or "right Mass for that."
对。 Right.
没错。 Right.
他们只会说，他们会说同一句话。 They'll just say, they'll say the same sentence.
是的。 Yeah.
「是啊，弥撒是，弥撒就像... "Yeah, the Mass is, the Mass is like...
魔鬼正在利用弥撒，等等等等。 The devil's getting away with the Mass and duh-duh-duh.
但弥撒真的很好很棒。」但是，他们会这么说，然后你就会想，「这到底是怎么回事 ？」然后你从语境上看，他们只是-我认为这只是当时读者的假设，或者说，听众- But the Mass is really good and great." But then, they'll say that and then you're like, "What the heck is going on here?" And then you contextually, they're just as- I think it's just this assumption of the reader at the time, or and it, the audience-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
理解到，好的，他显然是在说两件不同的事情。 is understanding, okay, he's obviously saying this and this about two different things.
他们最后只是使用了完全相同的词- They just end up using the same exact word-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
没有任何描述。 with no descriptor.
是的，不，我非常明白你的意思。 Yeah, no, I know what you mean very well there.
我在试图理解事情时也遇到过这种麻烦-特别是作为一个非路德宗信徒， 试图公平地解读路德所说的话，有时他会说一些话，而这些话会... I've had that trouble in trying to make sense of thing- especially as a non-Lutheran, trying to give a fair read to things Luther has said in particular, where sometimes he'll be saying something and it'll be...
你知道，他会有很长的从句，你会想，「我不知道他是不是在-」「 攻击公教的立场还是...」你知道，就像，它会有点令人困惑。 You know, he'll have very long clauses where you're like, "I don't know if he's like-" "attacking a Catholic position or..." You know, like, it'll just be a little bit confusing like that.
所以是的。 So yeah.
而且他是如此善辩，如此善辩，就像- And he's so polemic, he's so polemic and just like-
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
而且这里甚至也不是路德- And this isn't even Luther right here as well-
对，没错。 Right, right.
... ...
顺便说一下。 by the way.
对于... For...
我，我只是，我不一定是在对你说，而更多是对观众说。 I, I'm just, and I'm not necessarily saying that to you as much as to the viewer.
当然。 Sure.
《协同书》的大部分甚至不是路德写的。 The majority of the Book of Concord's not even from Luther.
会是其他人。 It's gonna be other people.
他监督了一些东西，但这些是菲利普·梅兰希顿的话，菲 利普·梅兰希顿在那个意义上使用祭祀的语言非常自在- He oversaw stuff, but these are the words of Philip Melanchthon, which Philip Melanchthon was very comfortable with using sacrificial language in that sense-
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
同样地。 as well.
所以实际上，我本应该用，我本可以找到一个引文，我听到过。 So actually, and I should've used, I could've found a quote and I heard it.
我在听乔丹·库珀，乔丹·库珀博士的一些东西，他肯定能比我现在说得好得多， 但我，我，你知道，我不是学者，也没有其他路德宗信徒决定谈论这个，所以。 I was listening to some stuff from Jordan Cooper, Dr. Jordan Cooper, who definitely would be able to say things a lot better than I am saying it right now, but I'm, I'm, you know, I'm no scholar and there's no other Lutherans that decide to talk about this, so.
你没有给自己足够的信任，佩顿。 You don't give yourself enough credit, Peyton.
别这样。 Come on, now.
好吧。 Okay.
你是一位荣誉学者。 You're an honorary scholar.
嗯... Well...
无论如何，我知道有很多很多人比我知道得更多，肯定能比我更好地把这个说出来。 Either way, I know there's many, many others that know more than I do and could definitely put this out here better than I.
但我想，总得有人开始把它说出来，否则没人会知道我们的立场。 But I figured, someone's gotta start putting it out there, or no one's gonna know our position.
是的。 Yeah.
不，我认为这是个好主意。 No, and I think it's a good idea.
我认为我肯定希望任何观看的公教徒得到的一个启示是，对于新 教徒来说，你不能假设每个人都是纪念说的支持者，你知道吗？ I think one takeaway I certainly want any Catholic watching to have is, for Protestants, you can't assume everybody's a memorialist, you know?
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
就像- Like-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
取决于你在...的哪个地方... depending on where you are in the...
我在到处演讲时注意到，即使我说，「哦，是的，你可能听过这个反对意见，」人 们在中西部，我应该说在下中西部听到的反对意见，在这个主要是浸信会地区- I've noticed this just traveling around giving talks, that even if I say, "Oh, yeah, you may have heard this objection," the ones that people have heard in the Midwest, in the lower Midwest I should say, down here in what's largely kind of Baptist country-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
将与上中西部那些全是路德宗的地方非常不同。 are gonna be very different than the upper Midwest where it's all Lutheran.
而且你知道，你去其他地方-实际上最奇怪的是当我谈到人们在 犹他州听到的对公教的反对意见时，它们都来自摩门教的视角。 And you know, you go to other pla- and actually the weirdest ones are when I talk about Catholic objections people have heard in Utah, and it's all coming from, like, a Mormon perspective.
就像- It's like-
嗯。 Hm.
... ...
完全不同于- totally different from-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
甚至是新教，就像，哦，是的。 even Protestantism, where it's like, oh, yeah.
这是... This is...
所以，我认为有一种危险，特别是对于从小就是公教徒的人来 说，他们会想象新教在很大程度上是一个统一的信仰体系- So, I think there's a danger, particularly for cradle Catholics, to imagine that Protestantism is largely unified as a belief system-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
以一种我认为它就是那样的方式。 in a way that I think it just kind of is.
就像，我不知道新教这个词作为一个社会学或神学描述符是否有很大 作用，因为它-似乎没有人同意新教的核心教义到底是什么，或者一 个人要成为新教徒必须相信什么，而不仅仅是基本的基督教内容。 Like, I don't know that the word Protestant does a whole lot, as either a sociological or a theological descriptor, because it— nobody seems to agree on what the core doctrines of Protestantism as such are, or like what one has to believe in order to be a Protestant that isn't just, like, basically Christian stuff.
是的，你指出这一点很好，因为我知道这有点离题，但我只是想快速地说，是的。 Yeah, and it's good that you point that out, 'cause I know this is off-topic a little bit, but I will just say quickly that, yeah.
特别是现在，很多人采取了对保罗的新观点，当然 ，用布雷登的话说，你指的是保罗的实际观点。 Especially more nowadays with, like the new perspective on Paul approach that you see a lot of people taking, which of course is, from the words of Braden, you mean the actual perspective of Paul.
我说，「等一下。 And I say, "Wait a minute.
停。」但是- Stop." But-
他不叫N.T. He's not called N.T.
我只是说，这是错的。 Wrong, is all I'm saying.
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
N.T. N.T.
对。 Right.
哦，好的。 Oh, okay.
是的。 Yeah.
你说对了。 You got it right.
是的。 Yeah.
因为- Because-
好的。 All right.
你现在必须接受它。 You gotta accept it now.
是的。 Yup.
是的。 Yeah.
不，当然。 No, for sure.
但他- But he-
抱歉。 Sorry.
继续。 Go ahead.
我只想说，有一个不断上升的趋势，许多其他通常被称为新教的团 体，嗯，他们拒绝新教的标签，但他们以那种方式拒绝新教的标签 ，就像，嗯，路德宗和，你知道的，有点像历史改革之类的东西。 I was just gonna say that there are a rising trend that a lot of these other groups that typically are called Protestant, well, they're rejecting that Protestant label, but they're rejecting the Protestant label in that way of like, well, Lutheranism and, you know, kind of like historical reform and stuff like that.
那些东西已经过时了，是错误的，他们不一定会说，「嗯，我们想去 -我们想成为，你知道的，公教徒或东正教徒，」或诸如此类的。 That stuff's dated and wrong, and they're not necessarily saying, "Well, we wanna go— we wanna become, you know, Catholics or Orthodox," or anything like that.
更像是，「嗯，他们两个都-那些人都不好。」 这几乎就像一种奇怪的复兴主义之类的东西。 It's more like, "Well, they're both— those guys are both bad." And it's almost like this weird restorationism kind of thing.
所以，你看到了那种上升趋势，就像我和很多人交谈时他们会说，「哦，天哪。 And so, you've kinda seen that uptick where it's like a lot of people I talk to are like, "Oh, gosh.
我不是-我不是新教徒。 I'm not— I'm not Protestant.
不，我不喜欢... No, I don't like the...
他们和公教徒一样糟糕，」你知道吗？ They're just as bad as Catholics," you know?
是的。 Yeah.
总是像等级制度-公教真的很糟糕吗？ It's always like the hierarchy is— is Catholic really bad?
然后- And then-
新教是好的。 Protestant is good.
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
哦哦。 uh-oh.
你就像-你就像那些老派新教徒。 You're like a— you're like one of those old Protestants.
嗯，此时，谢谢你的一些帮助，但你也相当糟糕。 Well, at this point, thanks for some of the help, but you're pretty bad.
同样。 Also.
是的。 Yeah.
所以- So-
是的，似乎每一代人都变得更加新教而不是公教 ，但也变得不那么明显地、历史性地基督教化。 Yeah, it does seem like every successive generation gets more Protestant and less Catholic, but also becomes less recognizably, historically Christian.
而路德宗是- And Lutheran being-
他们是最后一个历史性的。 They're the last historic.
他们一直- They've been-
... ...
第一代-第一代新教徒是，你知道 first— first generation Protestant is, you know
我的意思是，我... I mean, I ...
我想回答- I would like to answer-
你们两个都可以回答。 You both can answer.
继续。 Go ahead.
好的。 Okay.
所以就...而言... So in terms of...
所以你特别问到即使没有直接参与弥撒也能获得益处吗？ So you're asking particularly about receiving benefits even if you didn't directly participate in the Mass?
是的，所以， Yeah, so,
好的。 Okay.
... ...
路德宗的一个反对意见，安魂弥撒- one of the Lutheran objections, Requiem Masses-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
你， you,
路德宗说你领受赎罪的益处。 The, the Lutherans say you receive the benefits of the atonement.
当你领受圣餐时，它就施于你，为赦免罪过。 It's applied to you for the forgiveness of sins when you receive the Eucharist.
而- Whereas-
嗯。 Hm.
... ...
你知道，安-安魂弥撒，至少看起来表明祭献可以施于 你，为你奉献给天父，然后你就得到某种罪过的赦免。 you know, Requ- Requiem Masses, at the very least, would seem to indicate that the sacrifice can be applied to you, offering it to God the Father on your behalf, and then you receive some sort of forgiveness of sins.
是的。 Yeah.
所以可以肯定的是，我们知道早期基督徒理解它的方式是... So certainly, we know that the way the early Christians understood it is...
首先，我们并入基督不仅是为了我们自己的益处，也是为了我们周围人的益处。 Well, number one, our incorporation into Christ isn't just for our good, but it's for the good of those around us.
所以想想圣保罗对信主和不信主的配偶的教导，他暗示信主的配偶可能 在某种程度上是不信的配偶得救的管道，也是他们孩子得洁净的管道。 So think about St. Paul's instruction to the believing and the unbelieving spouse, and he suggests that it may be that the believing spouse is in some way the conduit of salvation for the unbelieving one, and for the purification of their children.
所以我们不想用纯粹个人主义的术语来理解救恩，对吧？ And so we don't want to understand salvation in purely individualist terms, right?
就像即使你得救了，你也从来不是单独得救的。 Like even if you are saved, you're never saved alone.
所以没有人能靠自己进天堂，无论是作为神恩的接受者还是管道 ，总是你是你周围基督徒的受益者，你也要成为别人的受益者。 And so no one gets to Heaven kind of by themselves, either as a recipient or as a conduit of divine grace, that it is always you are the beneficiary of Christians around you, and you are to be a beneficiary for others.
而拒绝那样行的人，实际上是在切断自己与救恩的链条，如果你想这样称呼的话。 And the person who refuses to act that way, is really cutting themselves off from, if you want to call it, the chain of salvation.
所以有了这样的背景，我们可以说早期基督徒... So with that kind of background, we can say that the early Christians...
所以只要看看圣济利禄的《教理讲授》第23讲，他谈得非常明确，这 是在340到350年，所以我们之前有点随意地提到了350年。 So to just look to Cateche- Catechetical Lecture 23 with St. Cyril, he talks very explicitly, and this is 340 to 350, so we went through the 350 out there kind of arbitrarily earlier.
但我们确实有这个时期他非常明确的见证，谈到为我们以前睡了的人， 先祖、先知、使徒、殉道者等等献上赎罪祭，这是为了他们的洁净。 But we do have very explicit testimony from this period of him talking about it as propitiation being offered, for those who have fallen asleep before us, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs and so on, that this is for their purification.
所以我们看到在300年代就有为生者和死者献弥撒。 So we see Masses being offered for the living and the dead in the 300s.
圣托马斯·阿奎那在12世纪会谈论这个，但他会... St. Thomas Aquinas much later will talk about this in the 12th century now, but he'll...
或者是13世纪，他会把弥撒正典看作是我们知道支持这一点的事情之一。 Or the 13th century, and he'll look to the Canon of the Mass as one of the things that we kind of know to support this.
所以当我们谈到，你知道的，弥撒正典说什么时，他说：「但对于那些没有领 受它的人来说，」弥撒「是有益的，因为它是为了他们的救恩而献上的祭。 So when we're talking about, you know, what does the Canon of the Mass say, he says, "But to others who do not receive it, it," the Mass, "is beneficial by way of sacrifice inasmuch as it is offered for their salvation.
因此，弥撒正典中说：『上主，请记念你的仆人，男人和女人，我们为他们奉献， 或者他们为自己和所有属于他们的人向你奉献这赞美的祭献，为赎回他们的灵魂， 为他们平安和救恩的希望。』」然后他引用耶稣谈到所做的奉献，我只是... Hence it is said in the Canon of the Mass, 'Be mindful of, O Lord, of Thy servants, men and women, for whom we offer or who offer up to Thee this sacrifice of praise for themselves and for all their own, for the redemption of their souls, for the hope of their safety and salvation.'" And then he quotes Jesus talking about the offering being made, and I'll just...
你知道吗？ You know what?
与其引用... Instead of quoting...
阿奎那引用耶稣，让我找出-... Aquinas quoting Jesus, let me just pull up- ...
- the-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
圣经文本。 Biblical text.
玛窦福音26章。 Matthew 26.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
当他说：「你们都喝这一杯，因为这是我立约的血，为多 人流出，使罪得赦。」他认为这是对其赎罪本质的认可。 When he says, "Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins," he views this as a recognition of the propitiatory nature of that.
然后在路加福音22:20，「这杯是用我血所立的新约 ，是为你们流出的。」所以，流出是指为赦罪而流的血。 And then in Luke 22:20, "This cup which is poured out for you is a new covenant in my blood." So the, the outpouring refers to the being shed for the remission of sins.
你知道，这很有趣，因为是的，就像基督在髑髅地的实际牺牲，没有人... You know, and it's interesting because yeah, like, the actual sac- Christ's actual sacrifice at Calvary, no one...
嗯，我想说没有人会说它不是- Well, I'd say no one's gonna say it's not-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
赎罪的，但有些人，你知道-... propitiatory, but there's people out there that, you know- ...
他们会，真的，他们不会深究，你会感到惊讶，对吧？ they would, really, they don't read into it, and you'd be surprised, right?
但我们会同意那是赎罪的。 But what we'd agree on is that was propitiatory.
是的。 Yup.
而我们... And we...
我们会说，在弥撒期间，当我们领受基督的身体，真实的身体和宝血时， 我们就领受了那些益处，就是在那里被牺牲的同一个身体和同一个宝血。 And we would say that during the Mass, when we receive Christ's body, true body and blood, we're receiving those benefits, that same body and that same blood that was there, that was sacrificed.
我们不会说实际的... We wouldn't say that the actual...
再次，这回到整个实际的再现是以那种方式发生的 ，在那里，它本身就是一个赎罪的行为，或者- Again, it goes back to that whole the actual representation of it is occurring in that way, where it's, where it is in and of itself right there a propitiatory act again, or -
不，我实际上... No, I'm actually...
鉴于你崇高的圣餐神学，我对此很好奇。 I'm curious about that in light of your high Eucharistic theology.
就像如果你说这只是他身体的象征，我会理解，但如 果你认为这实际上是基督以肉身临在，为什么... Like I would understand that if you said this is just a symbol of his body, but if you think this actually is Christ being made bodily present, why ...
也许这是一个愚蠢的... Maybe this is a dumb...
为什么不把它奉献给天父呢？ Why not offer that to the Father?
就像如果你有耶稣，为什么不说：「看。 Like if you have Jesus, why not say, "Look.
这是基督在十字架上唯一完美的祭献，我们将它与我们自己的祈祷结合在一起奉献」？ Here is the one perfect sacrifice of Christ on the cross, and we offer this in union with our own prayers"?
嗯，因为在我们... Well, 'cause in our...
我们如何看待它，它是如何多次被定义的，我们 的信条和圣经，我们指向的是那个祭-... How we would see it, and how it's defined many times, and how the confessions and the scriptures, what we point towards is that that sacrifi-...
这也回到了我知道在髑髅地我们之间也有一些关于牺牲的分歧和术语之 类的东西，这是一些可能会出现的更深层次的东西，但也可能不会。 And this also goes back a little bit to I know there is some sacrificial disagreements and terminology and stuff between us as well at Calvary, which is kind of some deeper stuff that might come up, but maybe not.
我就说这些。 I'll just say that.
但我们会说整个... But we'd say that that whole...
你提到奉献。 You mentioned offering.
为什么不以那种方式把它奉献给天父呢，对吧？ Why not offer it up to the Father in that way, right?
嗯... And well...
我希望我说得对，但在十字架上，就在那里，基督的身体被奉献 ，你知道，满全了一切，所以在弥撒期间，它不需要被奉献。 And I hope I say this right, but on the cross, that right there is Christ's body offered up, you know, satisfaction and all of that kind of stuff, so therefore during the Mass, it doesn't need to be offered up.
没有奉献，因为基督的身体已经... There's no offering up because Christ's body has already...
你知道，他已经被击打、受苦、受难。 You know, he's already smitten, stricken, and afflicted.
他已经... He's already...
他已经为我们的罪而死，我们领受他死亡的益处，就是赦罪，就是信心的坚固。 He's died for our sins, and we're receiving the benefit of his death, that forgiveness of sins, that strengthening of faith.
所以这是在弥撒礼仪中赐给我们的。 So that's being given out to us during the service of the Mass.
所以，我们当然同意基督不会再次被击打。 So, we certainly agree that Christ is not going to be stricken again.
对吧？ Right?
就像，不会有基督的再次牺牲。 Like, there's not going to be a re-sacrifice of Christ.
所以，你知道，再次使用逾越节的意象- So, you know, again, using the Passover kind of image-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
如果逾越节的羔羊在预备日被杀，然后在逾-你知道 的，无酵节的第一天被吃，那不是一个再现的日子。 if the Passover lamb is killed on Preparation Day and then is eaten on Pass- you know, the first day of Unleavened Bread, that's not a re-presentation day.
这不是一次重新杀戮。 It's not a re-killing.
但在某种意义上，羔羊是被呈现的，你通过吃他的肉，从祭坛上，与他联合。 But there is a sense in which the lamb is being presented, and you become united with him by eating his flesh, from the sacrificial altar.
然后你被带入祭献中。 And then you're brought into the sacrifice.
这似乎正是圣保罗描述圣餐中所发生的事情的方式。 And that seems to be the exact way that Saint Paul characterizes what's happening in the Eucharist.
所以，我想，听起来我们同意的地方是，它绝对是基督，它是一个祭献。 So is, I guess, I think where it sounds like we agree is, it is absolutely Christ and it is a sacrifice.
听起来我们不同意的地方是，它是基督的祭献吗- Where it sounds like we disagree is, is it the sacrifice of Christ-
不是。 No.
... ...
还是我们的祭献，你知道- or is it our sacrifice being, you know-
是的，那就是，那就是分歧所在，没错。 Yeah, that's, that's, that's the disagreement, yeah.
好的，好的。 Okay, okay.
因为你是对的。 Because you're right.
就像，如果它是基督的祭献，那么根据定义它就是赎罪的 ，似乎根据定义，对于在场或不在场的人都是有功德的。 Like, if it is the sacrifice of Christ, then it is definitionally propitiatory and seemingly, definitionally meritorious for those present or not present.
因为基督的祭献不仅仅是对那些恰好在十字架上的人有功德。 Because the sacrifice of Christ is meritorious not just for those who happened to be at the cross.
对，所以按照那个赎罪的定义，我能看出那是从哪里来的，对吧？ Right, so in by that propitiatory definition, I can see where that comes out, right?
是的。 Yes.
这也被提到了一点，因为有一部分是关于为死者举行弥撒的。 And that's spoken about a little bit because there's a section on the Mass for the dead.
是的。 Yeah.
主要那一部分就是关于这样的东西，因为如果罗马 公教的观点是正确的，那么这就说得通了，对吧？ Mainly that section is about stuff like that because that would consequently, if the Roman Catholic view is correct, well, then that would make sense, right?
好的。 Okay.
嗯，不，我的意思是，听起来我们至少找到了确切的 分歧点，即这是一种人为的祭献还是基督的祭献。 Well, no, I mean, it sounds like maybe we've honed in at least on the exact point of disagreement that whether this is kind of a man-made sacrifice or the sacrifice of Christ.
也许这不是最好的表达方式... Maybe that's not the best way of...
但似乎是那样的， but something like that seems to be,
这就是- It's where-
... ...
其中的一部分。 part of it.
是的，就像你说的，这是一个非常，非常微妙的... Yeah, there, that's, it's kind of like you said, it's very, it's a very nuanced kind of...
这就是令人困惑的地方。 that's where it gets confusing.
这就是为什么我认为很多人不谈论它，因为... That's why I think a lot of people don't talk about it because ...
当然，没错。 Sure, right.
... ...
这并不容易。 it's not as easy.
这很容易，这就是为什么，就像，每当我看辩论时，就像詹姆斯·怀 特的那些东西，都很难，因为，基督的身体和宝血甚至都不... It's easy, and that's why, like, it's hard whenever I watch the debate, like the James White stuff and all that because, well, Christ's body and blood's not even...
在那个神学中，没有预先的赦罪-没有他身体和宝血 的呈现，会有改革宗的人来反对我，但我不在乎。 there's no forgiveness of sins pre- there's no presentation of his body and blood in that theology and there's gonna be Reformers that are gonna come after me on this, but I don't care.
有，我们甚至在这里严厉地指出他，所以，抱歉。 There's, and we even call him out heavily in here, so, sorry.
但从路德宗的观点来看，从任何认为基督真实身体临在的观点来看，如果你已 经不同意他是临在的，并且有这个实际的，你在分享基督，你得到赦罪和信心 的坚固，如果你连这个都没有，那么你就无法进入更深层次的任何东西。 But from the Lutheran point of view, from any point of view that has actual real bodily presence of Christ there, well, if you're already disagreeing that he's present and there's this actual, you're partaking of Christ and you're getting that forgiveness of sins and that strengthening of the faith, well, if you don't even have that, well, then you can't even get into anything deeper.
你知道，就像整个赎罪祭的事情甚至都不，你甚至无法讨论它，因为你甚至没有框架。 You know, like, like the whole propitiatory sacrifice thing doesn't even, you can't even discuss it because you don't even have the framework.
你甚至没有共同点。 You don't even have the common ground.
... ...
到达那个点。 to get to that point.
对。 Right.
这就是为什么，至少，我们可以讨论祭献的本质，因为实 际上有东西可以讨论本质，而不是没有祭献这个话题。 And that's why this, at least, we can discuss the nature of sacrifice because there's actually something there to discuss the nature, rather than there being an absence of the topic of sacrifice.
这就是为什么我想... That's why I want to...
是的。 Yeah.
不，我认为这是一个很好的，有帮助的区分。 No, I think that's a good, it's a helpful distinction.
可能值得明确地说，我不知道路德宗在祭献层面上肯定的任何东西是公教会不 同意的，意思是我们确实认为圣餐除了其他东西之外，是一个赞美的祭献。 And it's probably worth saying just explicitly, I don't know that there's anything affirmed on the sacrificial level by Lutherans that a Catholic would disagree with, meaning we do think that the Eucharist is, amongst other things, a sacrifice of praise.
所以- So-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
不是说，哦，你在添加这种我们没有的奇怪的祭献神学。 it's not like, oh, you're adding this weird sacrificial theology we don't have.
不是的，不是的，我们知道奉献确实有一个祭献的维度。 It's like, no, no, we know the offertory has a sacrificial dimension to it.
我们知道赞美的祭献。 We know the sacrifice of praise.
我们知道，你知道，甚至诗篇和一切都会有... We know that, you know, even the Psalms and everything are going to have...
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
某种圣事，祭献，抱歉，某种功德。 kind of sacraments, sacrificial, excuse me, kind of merit.
但这是那个特定的问题，我确实感觉我们有希望突出了那个， 那个更大的，或者可能更清楚的，就像我们不同意的地方。 But it's that particular question, and I do feel like we've hopefully kind of highlighted that, that bigger, or maybe more clearly, like, where we disagree.
好的。 Okay.
如何- How-
对。 Right.
... ...
从路德宗的角度来看，一个人如何应用基督的祭献，就像吃祭坛上的羔羊的等同物是什么？ how would one go about, on a Lutheran perspective, applying the sacrifice of Christ in the, like, what is the equivalent to eating the lamb of the altar?
比如，如何？ Like, how?
抱歉，按照你提问的方式。 Sorry, with the way you phrased the question.
如何-它，但听起来，听起来公教徒和新教徒都同意 ，当吃饼喝酒的时候，就有分享赎罪的益处，对吗？ How- It, but it sounds like, it sounds like both Catholics and Protestants agree that there is a partaking of the benefits of the atonement when there is the eating of the elements, right?
好的，是的，那是- Okay, yeah, that's-
那会是一个- Would that, would that be a-
所以，好的，我是这么想的，但我只是想确定一下。 So, okay, I thought that, but I just wanted to make sure.
对。 Right.
因为，就像，你知道的，通读哥林多前书，我知道我提到过几次，当 圣保罗问：「我们所祝福的祝福之杯，岂不是同领基督的血吗？」 'Cause, and like, you know, going through First Corinthians, and I know I've mentioned it a few times, when Saint Paul asks, "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ?"
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
「我们所擘开的饼，岂不是同领基督的身体吗？」他举了吃祭物与祭坛相交的例子- "The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" He gives the example of eating the sacrifices and becoming a partner in the altar-
嗯哼，对。 Mm-hmm, right.
... ...
在哥林多前书10:18。 in First Corinthians 10:18.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
听起来，我不想把话放在你嘴里。 And it sounds like, I don't want to put words in your mouth.
听起来我们都同意，当我们领受圣餐时，这就是他相当明确地在谈论的- It sounds like we both agree that when we're receiving communion, this is what he is pretty clearly talking about-
是的。 Yes.
... ...
就像祝福之杯和所有这些。 like the cup of blessing and all of this.
这都是圣餐的语言。 This is all Eucharistic language.
嗯，哥林多前书10:18所指的是吃赎罪祭，而不仅仅是赞美祭。 Well, the First Corinthians 10:18 is referring to a propitiatory sacrifice being eaten, not just a sacrifice of praise.
当你这样做的时候，你实际上是在参与逾越节的祭献。 And you're actually participating in the Passover sacrifice when you do that.
所以，你知道，那个拒绝吃...的家庭... So, you know, the family who just refused to eat the...
比如，假设他们出于某种原因，他们献上了羔羊。 Like, let's say they, for whatever reason, they sacrificed the lamb.
他们赞美神，因为羔羊为他们而死。 They praised God for the lamb, dying for them.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但后来他们就决定不吃羔羊。 But then they just decided not to eat the lamb.
他们就不会被祭献所覆盖。 They would not be covered by the sacrifice.
但另一方面，如果他们吃了羔羊，他们就会成为祭献的参与者。 Uh, but on the other hand, if they did eat the lamb, they would be partakers of the sacrifice.
我的意思是，哥林多前书第10章第18节确实说-... I mean, literally Verse 18 of, of First Corinthians 10 says-...
「那吃祭物的人岂不是在祭坛上有分吗？」 are not those who eat the sacrifices partners in the altar?
就像，你成为祭坛的伙伴的方式是通过吃祭物。 Like, the way you become a partner in the altar is by eating the sacrifice.
所以如果按照路德宗的解读那是真的，那听起来就像是一个赎罪祭。 So if that's true on a Lutheran read, then it sounds like a propitiatory sacrifice.
你知道，我知道关于这一点也有更详细的内容，我很抱歉我没有找出来。 You know, and I know there is something about it too, that went into greater detail, and I'm sorry I didn't pull it up.
但对我来说- But to, to me-
呃- Uh-
... ...
听起来路德宗不会有太多不同意的地方，除了这个事实，我想，它 就像是一个重-呃，重新向神圣父献上的奉献，本质上是赎罪的。 it kind of sounds like there's not much there that Lutherans would disagree with, except for the fact that, I guess, it's like a re- uh, re-presentation of the offering to God, the Father, that is propitiatory in nature.
所以就像，我，也许我没有表达得很好。 So like, I, maybe I'm not articulating this very well.
就像，他们会，他们会看，呃，如果我错了请原 谅我，佩-或者如果我错了请纠正我，佩顿。 Like, they will, they will look to, uh, forgive me if I'm wrong, Pay- or correct me if I'm wrong, Peyton.
逾越节的祭献，是的，他们宰杀了羔羊，是的，我们分享祭献，我 们以那种方式参与，我们通过吃祭物而领受参与那祭献的益处。 The Passover sacrifice as, yes, they slaughtered the lamb, yes, we partake of the sacrifice, and we're participating in that way, and we're receiving the benefits of participating in that sacrifice by eating of the sacrifice.
但是，听起来你会问，「好的，那么奉献的类比 是什么...」我不知道这是否是正确的术语。 But then, it sounds like you would ask, "Okay, so what's the analog of offering..." I don't know if that's the right term to use.
在旧约中，代表他人奉献祭物，使他们在不吃祭物 的情况下分享祭献的益处，这样的类比是什么？ What's the analog in the Old Testament, of offering the sacrifice on behalf of others such that they would partake of the benefits of the sacrifice without eating of it?
因此，安魂弥撒是，因此- Hence, the Requiem Mass is and hence-
哦，当然。 Oh, sure.
当然，当然，当然。 Sure, sure, sure.
我想我... I think I...
他们... They...
我理解这一点。 I am understanding that.
这是一个好的描述吗，佩顿？ Is that a good description, Peyton?
我是说，在我也插话之前。 I mean, before I jump in there as well.
是的，我试图处理这一切并确保。 Yeah, I was trying to process it all and make sure.
好的。 Okay.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
嗯，是的，就像，再加一点，我想，要说的是，是，是... Well, yeah, and like, and to add a little bit, I guess, to say is like, is, is...
用那种祭献的语言，我们已经讨论过几次了。 In that sacrificial language, and we've already gone over it a few times.
但是，是的，整个，就像逾越节的东西和你看到的所有预表基督的，你知道吗？ But, yeah, that whole, like the Passover stuff and all you see typifying Christ absolutely, you know?
倾向于这个，基督在十字架上的牺牲。 Leaning towards this, that sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
所以，在弥撒期间，以那种方式，天父是... And so, during the mass, in that way, the Father is...
我，如果我可以用任何方式重现祭献的语言，如果我承认那种语言的运用，那是天父- I, if I could use a language of re-presenting a sacrifice in any way, if I would concede that kind of like, utilization of language, it's the Father-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
将圣子的身体和宝血带到祭坛上，让教会的信徒与之共融。 bringing the Son's body and blood down to that altar for the faithful of the church to commune with.
我们会说，圣灵通过祈求圣灵降临，使圣子临在，但他是祭献的真正祭司。 We would say the Holy Spirit, through the Epiklesis, makes the Son present, but that He is the true priest of the sacrifice.
就像，我想，嗯，我，也许... Like, I guess, well, I, maybe...
我不知道在那个维度加上希伯来书是会有帮助还是有害， 但这个，我知道这是在与怀特的辩论中出现的事情之一。 I don't know if this is gonna help or hurt to add Hebrews in that dimension, but this, I know this is one of the things that came up in the debate with White.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
在希伯来书中，经常有一次而永远的语言。 That oftentimes, with the once-for-all language in Hebrews.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
我认为被提到的，被省略或忽视的是，一次而永远不仅仅是在谈论... What I think gets mentioned, what gets omitted or overlooked is once for all there is not just talking...
我的意思是，从某种意义上说，它当然是在谈论耶稣受难日，但从希伯来书中同样清 楚的是，基督的牺牲不是在耶稣受难日完成的，当你看到赎罪日与基督的牺牲以及进 入希伯来书第9章中的圣所的方式形成对比和平行时，这一点就变得非常清楚。 I mean, in one sense, it is certainly talking about Good Friday, but it's equally clear from Hebrews that the sacrifice of Christ isn't done on Good Friday, and this becomes really clear when you look at the way Yom Kippur is contrasted and paralleled with Christ's sacrifice and the going into the holy place in Hebrews 9.
预表基督升天进入天上的圣所。 Prefiguring Christ going into the holy place of heaven with the ascension.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
你知道，升天，我们说的是43天后。 You know, the ascension, we're talking 43 days later.
对。 Right.
所以显然有某种应用，某种基督牺牲的维度。 So there is clearly some application, kind of dimension to Christ's sacrifice.
但我认为，如果一个人认为基督奉献自己在十字架上被杀，然后 在弥撒中被吃，而这些，你知道，他既是祭司又是祭献的牺牲。 But I think if one has a view of Christ offering himself to be slain on the cross and then to be eaten at the mass, and these are, you know, he is both the priest and the victim of the sacrifice.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
那么人的祭司只是真正祭司基督的中保。 Then the human priest is simply a mediator of the true priest who is Christ.
我认为这相当忠实于教父的解读，当然也符合公教神学对...的说法。 I think that is pretty faithful to the Patristic read and to certainly what Catholic theology would say about...
所以，所以是的。 So, so yeah.
就像，神重现祭献而不是祭司，我认为从公教的角度来看，这将是完全可以接受的语言。 Like, God re-presenting the sacrifice rather than the priest would be perfectly fine language, I think, from a Catholic perspective.
那是一个很长的过程最终- That was kind of a long way to end up-
对。 Right.
... ...
以一个是的，但是... in an yes, but...
是的。 Yeah.
我不知道那个联系有多广泛，我甚至说的那个短语，就路德宗而言... And I don't know how expansive that link, that phrase of what I even said really is, in terms of like Lutheran...
就像所有不同的文件，因为我知道，我现在知道了，而我没有机会去读它。 Of like all the different documents, because I know that, I know that right now, and I didn't get a chance to read it.
我本来打算的。 I meant to.
我只是忙于一些事情。 I just got busy with some stuff.
但是有一个... But there was a...
有一个相当广泛的对话，我不知道你是否看过，在澳大利亚路德宗 和罗马公教代表之间，在YouTube上也有一些相关视频。 There's a pretty expansive dialogue, I don't know if you've seen, between Australian Lutherans and Roman Catholic representatives and there's some videos on it, on YouTube as well.
你可以在网上找到一些文件，但它... There's some documents online you can find, but it...
有一个关于祭献语言的大讨论。 There's a big discussion about sacrificial language.
是的。 Yeah.
而且有很多向前迈进的道路，甚至比过去一段时间的情况更接近了。 And there were a lot of paths made forward that even got closer than what things have been for a while.
只是有一两个基本的东西，我打算读它，因为我-... There were just like one or two fundamental things, and I intended to read it because I- ...
那是我听说的其中之一。 that was one of those I heard.
我听说过... I had heard...
我看了一个视频，上面说，「这是... I watched a video that said, "This is...
他们讨论了这个，这个和这个，但去读一读就知道了。 」我当时开车时想，「哦，天哪，我要去读那个-」 They went over this, this, and this, but go read it to find out." And I was driving like, "Oh man, I'm gonna go read that-"
我得去读这个。 I gotta go read this.
「... "...
这部分。」然后在最后- part as well." And then at the end-
伙计们，这个讨论对我来说太微妙了。 This discussion's way too nuanced for me, guys.
我是一个前浸信会信徒。 I'm a former Baptist.
我正试图理解其中的区别。 I'm trying to understand the difference.
嗯，问题是，是的。 Well, and the thing is, is yeah.
我在尝试，如果我读了那个，我就能说，「哦，好吧，看。 I'm trying and if I read that I would have been able to say, "Oh, well look.
这些人，那两个代表走到一起，这就是-」 These guys, those two representatives came together and this is-"
是的。 Yeah.
「... "...
这就是他们达成的地方。」因为在这一点上，在读到那个之前，我应该，我不知道- this is where they got." Because at this point, before reading that, I should have, I don't know-
不，不。 No, no.
这就是我- That's what I'm s-
... ...
现代的方式，在一些现代对话中事情有多接近。 the modern way, how close in some of these modern dialogues things have gotten.
因为我不否认《辩护》中的内容，但可能有一些不同的语言用法- Because I'm not disagreeing with what's in the Apology, but there may be some different uses of language-
当然。 Sure.
... ...
近年来已经达成一致，而我实际上还没有看到。 that have been agreed upon as of recent years that I haven't actually seen.
你知道我的意思吗？ You know what I mean?
所以- So-
是的。 Yeah.
我认为也可以公平地说，16世纪的欧洲人并不总 是对犹太教和异教的祭祀神学有最深刻的理解。 I think it's probably also fair to say 16th century Europeans don't always have the deepest understanding of Jewish and Pagan sacrificial theology.
所以一些看起来像-...的领域... And so some of the areas that looked like-...
也许不可逾越的分歧是基于，你知道，我的意思是，只是给... maybe insurmountable differences were based on, you know, I mean, just to give...
我不认为这在路德宗的例子中是真的，但很多时候当人们反对公教关于祭献神学 的观点时，是因为他们认为我们在说基督再次被杀，而我们显然不是在说那个。 And I don't think this is true in the Lutheran example, but many times when people object to the Catholic vision of the sacrificial theology, it's 'cause they think we're saying Christ is being killed again, which we clearly are not saying that.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
但如果牺牲只是意味着杀戮，那听起来就是那样。 But if one thing's sacrifice just means killing, then it sounds like that.
对。 Right.
所以我们可能有点说着说着就跑题了。 And so we can kind of be talking past each other.
是的。 Yeah.
而且就像，嗯，我们实际上不会否认那些，你知道的，反对我们的人会说的任何事情。 And it's like, well, we wouldn't actually deny anything that people who are, you know, objecting us would say.
我们应该... We should...
你知道，基督在十字架上一次而永远地死了。 You know, Christ dies once for all on the cross.
绝对的。 Absolutely.
但如果我们有第一世纪他们所拥有的更细致入微的祭献神学，那 么我认为它会让我们更深入地理解一个人如何进入一个祭献。 But if we have the more nuanced sacrificial theology they had in the first century, then I think it gives us a deeper understanding of how one enters into a sacrifice.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
按照你的说法，我... The way you put it, I...
那是什么，布雷登？ What was that, Brayden?
哦，我什么都没说。 Oh, I didn't even say anything.
我在想，我... I was wondering, I...
所以我不知道这是否是一个有帮助的转折，但我知道我们 有一些共同点和一些分歧的一个领域是关于临在的概念。 So I don't know if this is a helpful pivot or not, but I know one area where we have some common ground and some difference is on the notion of presence.
现在，这在主题上与祭献的概念是相当不同的- Now, that is pretty thematically distinct from the sacrificial notion-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
所以如果你认为现在不是讨论这个的好时机，我很乐意就此打住。 so if you think that's not a good time to go there, I'm happy to just leave it alone.
嗯，我可以... Well, I can...
我愿意讨论，是的。 I'm willing to discuss, yeah.
好的，太好了。 Okay, great.
因为这是我作为一个外人在研究路德宗神学时遇到的一个问题。 Because this is a question I've had as an outsider looking into Lutheran theology.
所以我理解同质一体这个术语并不清楚。 So I understand that the term consubstantial is not clear.
就像你不想称它为同质说，对吗？ Like you don't want to be calling it consubstantiation, right?
不，我们不使用那个术语。 No, we do not use that term.
我们可以说基督在其中、同在、在其下。 We could say Christ is in, with, and under.
是的。 Yeah.
有没有更好的术语来表达这个？ Is there a better term for this?
有一个术语。 There's a term.
我们使用的术语叫做圣事联合。 Our term we use is called the sacramental union.
好的。 Okay.
这与同质一体有什么不同？ How is that different than consubstantial?
与同质说？ Than consubstantiation?
因为我认为... Because I think the...
我... I...
从我所见，问题是，同质说的语言来自，这是我读到的，因为 甚至有路德宗的人喜欢发表声明，他们使用了同质说这个词。 From what I've seen, and that's the thing, is the consubstantiation language from, and this is from what I've read 'cause there's even Lutheran people who like made statements and they've used the word consubstantiation.
好的。 Okay.
然后其他路德宗信徒会说，「不要使用同质说这个词。」你知道吗？ Which then other Lutherans are like, "Don't use the word consubstantiation." You know?
所以同质说- And so consubstantiation-
我也看到过这个。 I've seen this as well.
我见过路德宗使用同质说-... I've seen Lutherans use consubstantiation- ...
然后为非路德宗使用它而生气，但是- and then get mad at non-Lutherans for using it, but-
我不知道。 I don't know.
那么- How about-
... ...
这是你们的词。 it's your word.
是啊，拜托，伙计。 Yeah, come on, man.
是的。 Yeah.
是啊，这是你的问题，贝顿。 Yeah, it's your problem, Bayton.
拜托。 Come on.
它从未在信条中使用过。 It's never used in the confession.
使用的是圣事联合。 Sacramental union's used.
我认为主要的反对意见，当然如果我记错了评论区会有人纠正我 ，是同质说的语言是在使用基督的身体以一种局部的方式临在- I think the main objection, and somebody will correct me if I'm wrong in the comments, of course, that I remember is that the consubstantiation language is using Christ's body in a being present in like a local-
它有点像是在使用基督的身体以一种局部的方式临在- It's kind of using Christ's body in a being present in like a local-
我感觉，好的，是的。 I feel like, okay, yep.
... ...
局部的局部意义上。 locally local sense.
这说得通。 That makes sense.
而圣事... And the sacrament...
是的，如果你明白我在那里说什么？ Yeah, if you see what I'm saying there?
对。 Right.
好的。 Okay.
那，那就是同质说的语言。 That, that's the consubstantiation language.
圣事联合的语言不是在局部意义上指它。 The sacramental union language is not referring to it in a local sense.
是的，我想其中之一... Yeah, I guess one of the...
嗯，也许这只是圣事奥秘的一部分，但同质说至少似乎会导致面包化。 Well, maybe this is just part of the mystery of sacrament in general, but it does seem like consubstantiation at the least would lead to impanation.
你知道，那... You know, that...
换句话说，如果基督的身体和灵魂的结合，你有... In other words, if the union of Christ's body and soul, you have the...
或者抱歉，人性和神性，你有位格的结合。 Or excuse me, humanity and divinity, you have the hypostatic union.
如果你用面包和酒有那样的东西，那将是可憎的。 If you have something like that with bread and wine, that would be abominable.
我不是有意冒犯，我的意思只是从基督论的角度来说- I don't mean that as a slight, I mean that just to say from a christological perspective-
对。 Right.
... ...
这是神成为面包- it is God becoming bread-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
并且实际上是面包。 and being actually bread.
你知道，就像-... You know, like- ...
我们可以说他完全是神，完全是人，但说他完全 是人，完全是面包，就像一个半人马，因为- we can say he is fully God and fully man, but to say he's fully man and fully bread would be like a centaur, because-
嗯，直截了当。 Well, flat.
是的，那是正确的。 That's correct, yeah.
对，对，对，对。 Right, right, right, right.
完全正确。 Exactly.
所以，但我认为你对局部临在的区分可能会避免那个指责，因为- So, but I think your distinction with the local presence might avoid that charge because-
我可以... And I can...
而且这，它真的没有那么长。 And this is, and it's really not that long.
它相当简短。 It's pretty short.
《奥格斯堡辩护》... The Augsburg Apology...
所以《奥格斯堡信条》，当它提到圣餐时，就是那么长。 So the Augsburg Confession, when it says the Holy Supper, it's like that long.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
它只是-... It's just- ...
基督，基督真实而实质地临在- Christ, Christ is truly and substantially present-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
在饼和酒中、同在、在其下。 in, with, and under the bread and wine.
任何说基督不在那里的人都是错的。 And anyone that says Christ isn't there is wrong.
那真的是-... That's really- ...
那就是它真正说的。 that's really what it says.
然后《驳斥》很有趣，因为它也很短，当时，《驳斥》的作者 实际上说他们赞同，他们赞同它，不想在这个问题上深究。 And then the Confutation's interesting because it's very short too, and at the time, the writers of the Confutation actually said that they approved, they approved of it and didn't want to go any deeper on it.
所以他们- So they-
抱歉- And sorry-
所以他们- So they-
... ...
提醒我一下。 remind me.
《驳斥》，那是- The Confutation, that's-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
公教的代表- the Catholic kind of representatives-
回应。 Respond.
... ...
回应吗？ responding?
好的。 Okay.
所以《驳-所以，是的，对于所有观看的人，《奥格斯堡信条 》向神圣罗马帝国皇帝查理五世提交了路德宗信仰的条款。 So the Con- so, so yeah, for everyone watching, the Augsburg Confession presented to Charles V, a Holy Roman emperor, articles of the Lutheran faith.
然后，来自罗马的代表在那里，他们做了一个驳斥。 And then, representatives from Rome were there, and they made a confutation.
他们写了一个驳斥，无论他们是赞同这些条款，还是半赞同，或者就是完全不同意。 They wrote a confutation, whether they approved the articles or halfway approved them or just flat out disagreed with them.
然后《奥格斯堡信条辩护》就是对《驳斥》的回应。 And then the apology of the Augsburg Confession is then a response to the confutation.
这很有帮助。 That helps a lot.
只是为了澄清。 Just to clarify.
谢谢。 Thank you.
是的。 Yeah.
如果你不介意，这就是它所说的。 This is what it says, if you don't mind.
这是第10条。 It's Article 10.
不，一点也不。 No, not at all.
《辩护》，圣餐。 The Apology, the Holy Supper.
它说：「第10条已被批准，我们在其中承认以下内容。 It says, "Article 10 has been approved in which we confess the following.
我们相信在主的晚餐中，基督的身体和宝血真实而实质地临在，并 与那些看得见的东西，饼和酒，真正地施予那些领受圣事的人。 We believe that in the Lord's Supper, Christ's body and blood are truly and substantially present and are truly administered with those things that are seen, bread and wine, to those who receive the sacrament.
我们不断地捍卫这一信念，因为这个主题已经被仔细地检查和考虑过，因为圣保罗说：『 我们所擘开的饼，岂不是同领基督的身体吗？』」你刚才从哥林多前书10章读到的。 We constantly defend this belief as the subject has been carefully examined and considered since Saint Paul says, 'The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?'" What you just read from 1 Corinthians 10.
「如果主的身体不是真实临在的，那么饼就不是与身体相通，而只是与基督的灵相通。 "It would follow that if the Lord's body were not truly present, the bread is not a communion of the body, but only of Christ's spirit.
我们已经确定，不仅罗马教会肯定基督身体的临在。 We have determined that not only the Roman Church affirms Christ's bodily presence.
希腊教会现在也相信并正式地相信同样的事。 The Greek Church also now believes and formally believed the same.
他们的弥撒正典证明了这一点。 Their canon of the mass testifies to this.
在正典中，祭司清楚地祈祷，饼可以改变成为基督的真身。」Vulgari us，对我们来说似乎不是一个不重要的作者，他明确地说，引用，「饼不仅 仅是一个象征，而是真正变成了肉。」区利罗在约翰福音15章有一个更长的 评论，他在其中教导说，基督在晚餐中以身体的方式奉献给我们，因为他说： 然而，我们不否认我们通过真正的信仰和真诚的爱在灵性上与基督联合。 In the canon, the priest clearly prays that the bread may be changed to become Christ's very body." Vulgarius, who does not seem to be an unimportant writer to us, says clearly that, quote, "Bread is not a mere figure, but is truly changed into flesh." There is a longer commentary by Cyril on John 15, in which he teaches that Christ is bodily offered to us in the supper, for he says: Nevertheless, we do not deny that we are joined spiritually to Christ by true faith and sincere love.
但是我们没有办法按照肉体与他联系。 But that we have no way of connection with him, according to the flesh.
这一点，我们完全否认。 This, indeed, we entirely deny.
我们说这个想法完全与圣经不符。 We say this idea is completely foreign to the Divine Scriptures.
因为谁会怀疑基督以这种方式是葡萄树，我们是枝子，从中为自己获得生命呢？ For who has doubted that Christ is in this manner a vine, and we, the branches, deriving life for ourselves from this?
听保罗说：「因为你们在基督耶稣里都成为一了。」所以我 们虽多，却是基督里的一个身体，因为我们都分享一个饼。 Hear Paul saying, "For you are all one in Christ Jesus." So we, though many, are one body in Christ, for we all partake of the one bread.
他是否认为奥秘的祝福的功效我们不知道？ Does he perhaps think that the virtue of the mystical benediction is unknown to us?
既然这在我们里面，难道它不也通过基督肉体的交流，使基督身体地住在我们里面吗？ Since this is in us, does it not also, by the communication of Christ's flesh, cause Christ to dwell in us bodily?
接着又说，因此我们必须考虑，基督在我们里面不仅 按照我们称之为爱的习性，而且也通过自然的参与。 And a little after, Therefore we must consider that Christ is in us not only according to the habit, which we call love, but also by natural participation.
它说，我们引用这些见证不是为了在这里讨论这个主题，因为皇帝并不反对这一条 ，而是为了让所有读到它们的人更清楚地辨别，我们捍卫整个教会所接受的教义。 It says, We have cited these testimonies not to undertake a discussion here about the subject, for the emperor doesn't disapprove of this article, but we cite them so that all who read them may more clearly discern that we defend the doctrine received in the entire Church.
在主的晚餐中，基督的身体和宝血是真实和实际临在的。 In the Lord's Supper, Christ's body and blood are truly and actually present.
它们真正地与那些看得见的东西，饼和酒一起施予，我们说 的是活着的基督的临在，因为我们知道死亡不再辖制他。 They are truly administered with those things that are seen, bread and wine, and we speak of the presence of the living Christ, for we know that death no longer has dominion over him.
这就是这篇文章的结尾。 And that's the end of the article.
这很有意思。 That's fascinating.
我实际上对Vulgarius的引用印象深刻。 I am actually struck by the reference to Vulgarius.
这很有趣。 It's interesting.
他明确地说，「饼不仅仅是一个象征，而是真正变 成了肉。」所以似乎有一种实质性改变的概念。 Where he says distinctly that, "Bread is not a mere figure, but it's truly changed into flesh." So it seems like there is a notion of a substantial change.
就像，不仅仅是... Like, not just that...
就像，面包实际上被改变了。 Like, the bread is actually changed.
对吗？ Is that right?
从对它的阅读来看，似乎会有某种想法，比如，你知道... It seems from a reading right over that, that there would be some sort of idea of, like, whether, you know...
好的，即将生效的化质说的语言，对吧？ Okay, the transubstantiation language that's going to come into effect, right?
关于那个的讨论。 The talk on that.
对此产生分歧只是，我认为这真的是关于，你知道的，整个偶性的语 言和这个，你知道，对我们的感官来说，我们看到的，就像... The disagreement that comes into that is just, I think it's on, really, the idea that, you know, the whole accidents language and this, you know, it's to our senses we see, like, the...
我可能用一种非常粗俗的方式说这个，你可能不会这么说，但如果我错了请纠正我。 And I might be saying this in a very vulgar way, that you might not say, but correct me if I'm wrong.
就像，对我们的感官来说，你看到的是饼和酒。 It's like, to our senses, you're seeing the bread and the wine.
是的。 Yeah.
这是... It's the...
而且，你使用偶性这个术语，剩下的。 And, and you use the term accidents, leftover.
嗯- Well-
对吗？ Right?
偶性，你会在现代对化质说的解释中找到更多。 Accidents, you'll find much more in kind of modern explanations of transubstantiation.
好的。 Okay.
形相实际上是一些较旧的语言。 Species is actually some of the older language.
好的。 Okay.
但实际定义的东西是面包和酒的实体改变，不再是面包和酒，而成为宝血- But the stuff that's actually defined is that the substance of bread and wine changes, ceases to be bread and wine, and becomes the blood-
对。 Right.
... ...
和基督的身体。 and blood of Christ.
所以- So-
对。 Right.
但显然，无论你想如何描述它，外表，或偶性，或形相，显然有... But obviously, however you want to describe it, the appearances, or accidents, or species, there is obviously...
它继续看起来像面包和酒。 It continues to look like bread and wine.
你也发现早期教父谈论这一点。 And you find the early Church fathers talking about this as well.
尼撒的贵格利谈到这一点，安波罗修谈到这一点。 Gregory of Nyssa talks about this, Ambrose talks about this.
我认为区利罗谈到这一点。 I think Cyril talks about this.
通常，如果你读他们为初信者写的那种教理讲道- Often, if you read the kinda catechetical homilies they write for Neophytes-
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
他们会提出这一点。 they'll bring up this point.
就像，「是的，这看起来像面包和酒。 Like, "Yeah, this looks like bread and wine.
我们不认为它是面包和酒。」所以，化质说只是那个基本概念的一个长词。 We don't think it is bread and wine." And so, transubstantiation is just a long word for that basic idea.
对。 Right.
我明白了。 I see.
好的。 Okay.
我们会... And we would...
当然，我相信在《反对异端》中，经常引用的圣爱 任纽的非常真实的引文，你知道，我们捍卫那个。 And, of course, the very true and often-cited quotation from Saint Irenaeus, I believe, in Against Heresies, you know, we defend that.
我相信就在那里，关于天上的和自然的，或地上的和天上的事物在圣餐中联合的引文。 I believe that's where it is, the quote on the union between like the heavenly and the natural, or the earthly and the heavenly things in communion.
是的。 Yeah.
它有两个实在，天上的... It has the two realities, heavenly...
是的。 Yeah.
我知道- I know the-
而且- And-
我想我知道你指的是哪一个。 I think I know the one you're referring to.
是的。 Yeah.
我在这里的某个地方有它。 I have it somewhere in here.
我可以... I could...
但我... But I...
本质上，那就像 Essentially, that's like the
正如从地上生产出来的饼，当它接受了神的祈求时 ，不再是普通的饼，而是由...组成的圣餐- As the bread which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist consisting-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
两个实在，地上的和天上的。 of two realities, earthly and heavenly.
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我认为我们正在做的很多事情，就是定义什么是仍然存在的地上的，什么是天上的。 So I think a lot of what we're doing, then, is just defining what is earthly that remains, and what is heavenly.
什么- What-
对。 Right.
我们会捍卫这一点，以面包和酒在其实体中仍然存在的方式，但它 不仅仅是面包和酒，因为现在发生了基督的身体和宝血的结合。 And we would defend that, in the way that bread and wine in their substance is still present, but it's not merely bread and wine, because there's a union that has now occurred of Christ's body and blood.
但如果面包和酒仍然是面包和酒，我们如何与V ulgarius一起说它真的变成了肉呢？ But if the bread and wine remain bread and wine, in what way do we say with Vulgarius that it is truly changed into flesh?
因为这似乎不是一个准确的描述。 Because it doesn't seem like that would be an accurate description.
我的意思是，如果我有... I mean, if I've got...
也许这是... Maybe this is...
我已经后悔使用这个类比了。 I already regret using this analogy.
对于一个花生酱和果酱三明治，果酱可能在花生酱中、内、下，但尽管 它们以某种，你知道的，球状方式结合在一起，但两者是不混合的。 With a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, the jelly is maybe in, within, under the peanut butter, but the two are unmixed even though they're united in some, you know, globular way.
所以你说，「我已经后悔使用这个类比了。」这可能会在另一个领域出现。 So you go, "I already regret using this analogy." This might come up in another area.
我得翻过来看看，因为它更多地谈论圣事。 I'd have to flip and see, 'cause it talks more about the Sacrament.
但它谈到它，它谈到基督的身体和宝血... But it talks about it, it talks about Christ's body and blood...
抱歉。 Sorry.
超自然的临在和- Supernatural presence and-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
它的超自然临在与饼和酒的元素同在。 its supernatural presence there with the elements of bread and wine.
这就是为什么它说，「饼不仅仅是一个象征。」嗯，当然它不仅仅是一个象征。 That's why it says like, "Bread is not a mere figure." Well, of course it's not a mere figure.
然后，「但它真的变成了肉。」嗯，我想，整个实体的语言被采用... And then the, "But it's truly changed into flesh." Well, that whole substance language, I guess, is taken...
你知道，它可能像许多人那样被抛弃，就像，「哦，这无所谓。」你知道吗？ You know, it could be thrown out like many do, where it's like, "Oh, it doesn't matter." You know?
那里没有，那里什么都没有发生。 There's no, there's nothing going on there.
然后是化质说的事情，就像，嗯，不，它... And then the transubstantiation thing where it's like, well, no, it...
整个实体完全变成了基督的肉体.... That whole substance is changed completely into Christ's flesh....
或者我想我们对此采取的真正方法是基督超自然的身体和宝血在那里临在。 or I guess the real approach that we take on that is Christ's supernatural body and blood being present there.
确实改变了饼。 Does change the bread.
它不再是你通常所知的面包和酒的意义上的普通面包，但它仍然自然是面包和酒的元素。 It's no longer common bread in the sense of what you would know as normally bread and wine, but it still is naturally an element of bread and wine.
但如果我可以... But if I could just...
我特别想知道这个短语，「真的变成了肉」，因为 在路德宗的观点上，它似乎并没有真的变成肉。 I'm specifically wondering about the phrase, "Is truly changed into flesh," 'cause it doesn't seem like it is truly changed into flesh on a Lutheran view.
但似乎肉也存在。 But it seems like flesh is also present.
但你知道，当两三个人奉基督的名聚会时，他以某种方式在灵里临在。 But you know like when two or three are gathered in Christ's name, he is spiritually present, somehow.
但我们不会说他们变成了基督。 But we wouldn't say they've changed into Christ.
对。 Right.
所以如果发生的是那样的事情，也许不仅仅是那样，我不知道。 And so if something like that is what's happening, and maybe it's something more than that, I don't know.
看起来就像... It just seems like...
我在路德宗的框架中遇到了困难，即如何理解一个人如何既肯定仅仅是圣事联合 的临在，又肯定饼的肉体发生了真正的改变，而不仅仅是肉体与饼一起临在。 I'm having trouble with, in kind of the Lutheran framework of making sense of how one can affirm both a mere sacramental union presence, and that there is a true change in the flesh of the bread, not just that the flesh becomes present alongside the bread.
嗯，还有很多... Well, and a lot...
这就像每个人讨厌的事情，每当... And this is like the thing that everyone hates whenever...
特别是像改革宗当他们和我们交谈时，所以抱歉把这个扔进去。 Especially like Reform when they're talking with us, so sorry to throw this one in there.
但是当我们谈论圣事联合的超自然临在，或奥秘，以及圣事时，发生的改变就像... But the change that occurs in, when we talk about like that supernatural presence of the sacramental union, or the mystery, and the sacrament, is like...
对不起，我就说出来了。 I'm sorry, I'm throwing it out there.
我爸爸也讨厌我这样做。 My dad hates this when I do this too.
这是一个没有很好地在哲学上定义的改变。 It's a change not well philosophically defined.
这似乎是真的。 That seems true.
所以因为那个- And so because of that-
烧伤。 Burn.
不。 No.
是的。 Yeah.
不，也因为那个，那些定义往往不是真的... No, and because of that, those definitions in that way tend to be not really...
没有太多讨论。 Not really discussed too much.
我知道有一本书我应该读，但我还没有读，路德宗关于 基督身体在元素中、与元素同在的观点，它叫做... I know there's a book that I should have read, and I haven't, that the Lutheran view of Christ's bodily presence in the elements, with the elements, and it's called...
我记不起来了。 I can't remember.
它叫做基督可爱的真实和圣洁的身体，所以，你知道的，在圣餐中和所有那些。 It's called like the adorable true and holy body of Christ, so, you know, in the Eucharist and all that.
它很大，有一堆东西，我知道它可能... And it's massive, and it has a bunch of stuff and I know it probably...
它肯定可能会涉及很多。 It definitely probably goes into it, quite a bit.
我知道像马丁·凯姆尼茨和其他人， And I know like Martin Chemnitz and other,
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
... ...
宗教改革后的作家广泛讨论这样的东西，特别是 在马丁·凯姆尼茨对特伦托大公会议的回应中。 post-Reformation writers talk extensively on stuff like this, especially in, in Martin Chemnitz's response to the Council of Trent.
他有一个关于...的东西... He has a thing about...
因为关于化质说的条款，我实际上可以找出一些东西。 'Cause about the clause on transubstantiation, and, and I can actually pull something up on this.
抱歉，我-我-我不-你还能看到我吗？ Sorry, I- I- I don't r- can you still see me?
这是我们在很多事情上的立场。 This is where we land on a lot of things.
我知道我有点跑题了。 I knew I was going a little bit off topic.
但老实说，这只是出于一种好奇。 But it was- it was honestly a place of just, kinda curiosity.
对。 Right.
但当你提到《辩护》第10条时，我没有听过那种语言，然后就有点惊讶于L udarius听起来比路德宗更公教，但他却被用来支持路德宗的观点。 But then when you brought up article 10, from the Apology, I hadn't heard that language, and then was just kinda struck by how much more Catholic Ludarius sounded than Lutheran, and yet he's being used to support the Lutheran view.
所以我觉得我一定是漏掉了什么，或者它只是没有很好地定义，也许吧。 And so I feel like I must be missing something or- or it just isn't very well defined, perhaps.
不，我们-我们得开始谈论遍在论了，所以。 No, we- we gotta start talking about ubiquitarianism, so.
遍在论者。 Ubiquitarian.
那是-那是某种... Is that- is that something...
那是不是像路德宗内部的-就像遍-呃，遍在，遍-遍在的教义，还是... Is that something that's like within Lutheran the- like U- uh, ubiquity, the doctrine of u- ubiquity, or...
我实际-... I act-...
我实际上... I actually...
我知道它的存-我知道它的存在，但你得再提-提醒我那是什么。 I know of its ex- I know of like the existence of that, but you're gonna have to re- remind me what that is again.
所以如果我没记错的话，我要... So if I recall correctly, and I'm gonna...
哦，评论者们会对我们所有人进行事实核查。 Oh, the commenters are gonna fact-check us all.
所以遍在是指基督的人性参与并分享他神性的全知的神 圣属性，这就是他如何在路德宗的圣餐元素中临在。 So ubiquity is where Christ's human nature participates in and partakes of the divine attributes of omniscience from his divine nature and that's how he can be made present in the Eucharistic elements in Lutheranism.
我不知道那是不是像-一个早期路德宗的奥西安德争议之类的 东西，还是那实际上是正统路德宗的一部分，但我不确定。 I don't know if that was like a- an early Lutheran kind of like Osiander controversy kind of thing, or if that was like actually a part of Lutheranism proper, but I'm not sure.
因为我-我以为我们之前谈过这个，在- 'Cause I- I thought we had talked about this before, where-
不，你确实在某个时候提到过，我可能说过，「我要去看看那个」，然后我做了什么。 No, you did bring it up at one point, and I probably said, "I'm gonna go look at that," and what have I done.
我不记得那是什么了。 I don't remember what it was.
因为我-我-我记得我们谈过-基督在圣餐中的临在可以比作 ，-基督复活后的显现，比如说，当他-他-他穿过这扇门。 'Cause I- I- I remember we had talked about the- the- the presence of Christ and the Eucharist being comparable to, the- the- the post-resurrection appearances of Christ as he, let's say, as he- he's- he's phasing through this door.
就像当他穿过门时，基督的物理身体占据着与这扇物理门相同的物理空间，因 此两者可以同时存在于同一个地方，他凭借他的神性做到这一点，这就是- Like as he's walking through the door, Christ's physical body is occupying the same, physical space as this physical door, such that both could be present in the same place at once, and he does that by virtue of his divine nature and that's how-
哦。 Oh.
... ...
基督以所有这些不同的方式临在。 Christ was present in all these different ways.
是的，这是一个整体，而且- Yeah, and it's a whole, and-
我相信是《海德堡信条》，主日18，第48问。 I believe it is Heidelberg Confession, Lord's Day 18, question 48.
好吧，就是这样。 Well, there we go.
那是，它... And that was, it...
所以，它，是的，所以是海德堡的那个。 So, it, yeah, so it was the Heidelberg one.
好的。 Okay.
嗯，这不在《协同书》中，但海德堡，嗯，信条很有趣。 Um, it's, this is not in the Book of Concord, but Heidelberg, um, Confession's interesting.
关于那个，布莱顿，只是非常简单地说。 About that, Brighton, just really briefly.
很多那样的辩论也出现了，关于...的想法... A lot of that debate kind of came up as well, the idea of...
那-那就是交流。 That- that's the communicatio.
我甚至不知道这是否出现过，在-在-在任何罗马公教的领域中出现过，但是属性的交流。 I don't even know if this even comes up, came up in- in- in any Roman Catholic spheres, but the communicatio idiomata.
是的，属性。 Idiomata, yeah.
属性的交流。 The communication of properties.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
而那个争-真正-真正发生的争论是属-属性交流的争论，关于改革 宗如何定义基督从他的人性到他的神性的关系，然后他们会说，他们 -本质上，长话短说，我们会看改革宗，说他们像聂斯托利派。 And of that dis- the real- the real fight that occurred was the commun- the- the communication of properties argument between how the Reform would define Christ's relation from his human self to his divine self, and then how they would say, they w- essentially, long story short, we would look at the Reformed and say they're like Nestorians.
而他们会看我们，说我们像密亚非派。 And they would look at us and say we're like Miaphysite.
是的。 Yeah.
是的，它看起来确实像-它可能混合了-... Yeah, it does seem like it- it might blend the-...
本性，说他在他的人性中承担了神性。 natures, to say that he takes on divine nature in his human nature.
如果那是... If that is...
就像他们，它看起来确实像，遍在似乎确实遇到了一些密亚非派或一性论的问题。 like they, it does seem like the, the ubiquity does seem to run into some Miaphysite or Monophysite problem.
它解释得非常好。 It's explained really well.
好的。 Okay.
老实说，我目前还没有准备好以一种好的方式讨论它。 And honestly, I am not prepared to discuss it in a good way at the moment.
嘿，没关系，因为改革宗在这个故事中，无论如何，因 为他们使用这个故事和论证拒绝圣像，所以这很酷。 Hey, that's fine, because the Reform during this story and anyways, 'cause they reject iconography using this story and argumentation, so it's cool.
嗯，大多数改革宗，除了像你非常传统的长老会，可能也拒绝马利亚作为神之母，所以- Well, and most of the Reform, besides like your very traditional Presbyterian probably also reject Mary as Mother of God, so-
我们分配的时间不多了。 We're running low on our allotted time.
我知道，我很抱歉。 I know, I'm sorry.
对不起。 I'm sorry.
我不是故意岔开话题的，抱歉。 I didn't mean to segue, I'm sorry.
哦不，你没事，我们到处跳。 Oh no, you're fine, we're jumping all around.
好的，我想在这里接近尾声。 Okay, so I guess towards the end here.
我... I...
抱-抱歉，很快，我可以- S- sorry, real quick, can I-
可以。 Yeah.
... ...
只是问佩顿，有没有什么他想确保涵盖到的，但他认为没有很好地涵盖- just ask Peyton if there's anything he wanted to make sure got covered he didn't think was well covered-
哦，我的错。 Oh, my bad.
我没有-你还在看...吗？ I didn't re- are you still looking at the...
是的，我现在在看《坚固宣言》。 Yeah, I'm in the Solid Declaration right now.
好的。 Okay.
我试图确保我... Which I was trying to make sure I...
抱歉，我刚才... Sorry, I was...
因为《坚固宣言》，我只是在快速比较这两个，因为《摘要》很快。 because the Solid, I was just comparing the two really quick because Epitome's like quick.
本来就是。 As it is.
然后《坚固宣言》就像，「嘿，让我们谈5000页关于这个。」 and then the Solid Declaration's like, "Hey, let's talk for 5,000 pages about this."
伙-伙计，你需要得到- Y- dude, you need to get-
是的。 Yeah.
你需要- You need to-
所以- So-
在Verbum上获取《协同书》，我是说Logos。 Get the Book of Concord on Verbum, I mean Logos.
可能是最好的。 probably the best.
听着，我喜欢Logos，但它在网上可以获得。 Look, I love Logos, but it is available online.
是的，但是- It is, but-
太好了。 Great.
你知道吗，你知道... Did you know, did you know...
抱歉，岔开话题。 sorry, segue.
你可以在网上免费下载PDF，并将它们转换为个人书籍，放入V erbum，这样你就可以拥有一本Verbum的个人书籍？ You're able to download freely available PDFs online and convert them to personal books and put them into Verbum so that way you can have a personal book of Verbum?
不知道。 No.
是的，我- Yeah, I-
这是一个很棒的小... This is a great little...
这不是一个故意的广告，但效果非常好。 this was not an intended ad, but it worked really well.
太神奇了。 It's amazing.
我正在为Verbum写一篇文章，所以- I'm writing a piece for Verbum, so -
哦，嘿，就是这样。 Oh, hey, there we go.
... ...
他们会很高兴知道我们刚刚为他们做了推广。 they'll be happy to know we just plugged them.
是的。 Yes.
不，Verbum很棒。 No, the Verbum's great.
自从... Ever since...
所以佩顿实际上有他的神学院，他们... and so Peyton actually has his seminary, they...
你不是因为你的神学院而通过Logos获得一个特定的软件包吗？ Don't you get like a particular package through Logos because of your seminary?
是这样吗？ Is that what it is?
是的，终身- Yeah, the lifetime-
是的。 Yes.
... ...
套餐。 package.
太疯狂了，是的。 So insane, yeah.
这就是我在复习希腊文和希伯来文的东西时使用的。 That's what I use for my Greek and Hebrew stuff when I'm going over that.
是的，当然。 Yeah, for sure.
非常有帮助。 Very helpful.
但在... But in...
我现在在看《摘要》。 I'm at the Epitome right now.
其中一些... Some of...
有... there's...
《摘要》中有肯定的陈述，即我们所承认的，也有否定的陈述，即我们所谴责的。 it has affirmative statements in the Epitome, so what we confess, and it has negative statements, so what we condemn.
绝大多数内容是反对所谓的「圣事派」，所以在改革宗中非常重要。 The vast majority of the stuff is against the, quote, "Sacramentarians," so very significant in Reform.
是的。 Yeah.
你说什么，抱歉？ What'd you say, sorry?
它的名字非常令人困惑。 It's el- very confusingly named.
就像如果你把- It'd be like if you named-
因为- Because-
... ...
一个至少相信洗礼的群体命名为浸信会。 a group that believes at least in baptism Baptists.
嗯，它... Well, and it...
是的，我知道。 Yeah, I know.
嗯，有趣的是，现在你所说的圣事派是指那些高度重视圣事的人。 Well, what's funny is now somebody that you'd refer to as Sacramentarian is someone who has a high view of the sacraments.
对，因为我说这完全是个180度大转弯。 Right, because I'm saying it's a total 180.
就像如果人们读到圣事派，他们会说，「哦，是的。」嗯- Like if people are reading Sacramentarian, they're like, "Oh, yeah." Well-
是的。 Yeah.
「... "...
你，你不是圣事派。 you, you're not a Sacramentarian.
我猜你不相信圣事。 I guess you don't believe in the sacrament.
是的。 Yeah.
不。 Nope.
圣事派真的低估了圣事。 Sacramentarians really downplay the sacraments.
对。 Right.
所以我只是快速地读一下这里的内容。 So I'll just read really quickly just something on here.
这是肯定的陈述。 This is the affirmative statements.
你知道，「我们相信、教导并承认，在圣餐中，基督的身体和宝血真实而本质 地临在，它们真正地与饼和酒一起分施和领受。」我们已经讨论过这个了。 You know, "We believe, teach and confess that in the Holy Supper, Christ's body and blood are truly and essentially present, that they are truly distributed and received with the bread and wine." We've already gone over that.
是的。 Yeah.
「我们相信、教导并承认，基督遗命的话语不应 以任何其他方式理解，只能按照字面意思理解。 "We believe, teach and confess that the words of Christ's testament are not to be understood in any other way than the way they read according to the letter.
所以饼不是象征基督不在场的身体，酒也不是象征他不在场的宝血。 So the bread does not signify Christ's absent body and the wine, his absent blood.
而是因为圣事的联合，饼和酒真正是基督的身体和宝血。 But because of the sacramental union, the bread and wine are truly Christ's body and blood.
第三，现在关于祝圣。 Three, now about the consecration.
我们相信、教导并承认，在圣餐中，基督身体和宝 血的临在不是由人的工作或牧师的诵读产生的。 We believe, teach and confess that no work of man or recitation of the minister produces this presence of Christ's body and blood in the Holy Supper.
相反，这种临在只能归功于我们主耶稣基督的全能大能。 Instead, this presence is to be credited only and alone to the almighty power of our Lord Jesus Christ.
第四，同时，我们也一致相信、教导并承认，在使 用圣餐时，基督设立圣餐的话语绝不应该被遗漏。 Four, at the same time, we also believe, teach and confess unanimously that in the use of the Holy Supper, the words of Christ's institution should in no way be left out.
相反，应该公开诵读，正如哥林多前书10:16所写，我们所祝福的祝福之杯等等。 Instead, they should be publicly recited as it is written in 1 Corinthians 10:16, the cup of blessing that we bless and so forth.
这祝福是通过诵读基督的话语而发生的。 This blessing occurs through the reciting of Christ's words.
在这个问题上，我们反对圣事派所依据的基础是 路德博士在他关于基督晚餐的认信中所阐明的。 In this matter, the ground on which we stand against the Sacramentarians is what Dr. Luther has laid down in his confession concerning Christ's supper.
第一点是我们基督教信仰的这一条，耶稣基督在一个位格中是真实的、本质的、自 然的、完全的神和人，不可分割、不可分离。所以它涉及到基督论之类的东西。 The first point is this article of our Christian faith, Jesus Christ is true, essential, natural, perfect God and man in one person, undivided and inseparable. So then it gets into christology and stuff like that.
然后往前跳。 Then skip ahead.
我们相信、教导并承认，基督的身体和宝血不仅通过 信心在灵里领受，而且也以口领受，与饼和酒一起。 We believe, teach and confess that Christ's body and blood are received with the bread and wine not only spiritually through faith, but also orally.
然而不是以迦百农人的方式，而是因着圣事的联合，以超自然、属天的方式。 Yet not in a Capernaic way, but in a supernatural heavenly way because of the sacramental union.
基督的话清楚地表明了这一点，当基督指示拿起、吃、喝，使徒们也照做了，因为马 可福音14:23写道：「他们都喝了。」圣保罗同样说：「我们所擘开的饼，岂不 是同领基督的身体吗？」也就是说，吃这饼的，就是吃基督的身体，教会的主要古代 教师，如金口、居普良、良一世、额我略、安波罗修、奥古斯丁也一致见证这一点。 Christ's words clearly show this when Christ gives direction to take, eat and drink as was also done by the apostles, for it is written in Mark 14:23, 'And they all drank of it.' St. Paul likewise says, 'The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?' That is to say he who eats this bread eats Christ's body, which also the chief ancient teachers of the church, Chrysostom, Cyprian, Leo I, Gregory, Ambrose, and Augustine unanimously testify.
读到一段人们反对化质说的段落，即迦百农人的观点， 认为约翰福音第6章是关于圣餐的观点，这很奇怪。 It's very strange to read a paragraph where people argue against transubstantiation, that's the Capernaic view, the view that Capernaum is about the Eucharist.
对。 Right.
然后引用了良一世教宗，他... And then cite to Pope Leo I, who...
我想可以说他是一位公教徒。 I would say is arguably a Catholic.
实际上，我认为所有这些人... Actually, I think all of those people...
我很乐意肯定金口、居普良、良一世、额我略、安波罗修和奥古斯丁的圣餐神学。 I would be happy to affirm the Eucharistic theology of Chrysostom, Cyprian, Leo, Gregory, Ambrose, and Augustine.
所以当他们说「显然不是以公教的方式」，但这里有一 长串公教徒也认为教导公教神学的人，这有点奇怪。 So it is kinda weird when they sort of throw out like, 'Obviously not in the Catholic way,' but here's a long list of people that Catholics also think teach Catholic theology.
嗯，他们当然是在教导公教神学，这就是我们在这里的原因。 Well, of course they're teaching Catholic theology, that's why we're here.
公教的意思是路德宗，对吗？ Catholic means Lutheran, right?
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
公教的意思是路德宗。 Catholic means Lutheran.
我忘了这一点。 I forgot about that.
不，奥古斯丁实际上有一句很棒的话。 No, Augustine actually has a great line on that.
如果你去任何一个城镇... Where if you go into any town...
是吗？ Do they?
哦，是圣奥古斯丁。 Oh, it's Saint Augustine.
他说，「当你进入一个城镇...」 He says, 'When you go into a town...'
问公教会在哪里，否则异端会告诉你他们是公教会。 ask where the Catholic Church is, because otherwise heretics will tell you they're the Catholic Church.
是的。 Yes.
好的。 Okay.
哦哦。 Uh-oh.
这让我想起。 That reminds me.
我的段落包括奥古斯丁。 My paragraph included Augustine.
我认为他会是这场争议的公正裁判。 I thought he'd be a fair judge of the dispute.
佩顿，你能给我引用LCMS对信经的翻译吗？ Peyton can you quote to me the LCMS rendering of the creed?
独一、圣洁- One holy-
是的。 Yeah.
... ...
基督教的、使徒的。 Christian, apostolic.
你们真的这样做吗？ Do you really do that?
你改变了... You changed...
你把公教改成基督教了？ You changed Catholic to Christian?
是的，你... Yeah, you...
是的。 Yeah.
它说基督教，它说... It says Christian and it says...
下面写着，原来的词是公教，这很愚蠢。 Below it, it says originally the word Catholic, which is stupid.
我不知道他们为什么这样做。 I don't know why they did that.
我是说，我们会... I mean, we'll...
如果你可以改变词语的意思为你想要的任何意思，那就是一个共识点。 Point of agreement if you can change the words to mean whatever you want them to mean.
真正的... The re-...
整个... The whole...
你知道，所以问题是，虽然基督教和公教这个词不是... You know, so here's the thing is while the Christian and Catholic word are not...
它们在真正的基督徒、真正的公教意义上是不可分 的，你会同意，但你会对一些东西有不同的定义。 They're inseparable in that way, in a true Christian, true Catholic sense, and you'd agree but you'd define some stuff differently.
真正的原因是因为那是直接从德文翻译过来的，所以当你-当你... The real thing is because that's translated directly from the German text and so when you're t- when you're...
当你说，「哦，是的，我们直接从这里翻译过来」，好吧 ，那个基督教这个词直接从德文翻译成英文就是这样。 When you go, "Oh, yeah, we're translating it directly from this," well, then, that word Christian directly from the German text into English is what it is.
所以，好吧，当我们说... So, well, when we say the...
当我们在圣三一节念信经时，有多少罗马公教徒这样做，所以... When we say the Affination Creed on Holy Trinity, how many Roman Catholics do that, so...
那是真的。 That's true.
当我们在圣三一瞻礼上念信经时，我们在那里说公教。 When we see the Affination Creed on the Feast of the Holy Trinity, we say Catholic in there.
嗯，当... Uh, when...
还有费尼神父... And Father Feeney...
我不知道你是否知道整个故事。 I don't know if you know that whole story.
费尼神父因宣称每个非公教徒都要下地狱而被绝罚。 Father Feeney was excommunicated for claiming that every non-Catholic was going to hell.
嗯- Uh-
是的，费尼主义。 Yeah, Feeneyism.
嗯，这就是雷曼兄弟所相信的，对吗？ Well, that's what the Leiman brothers believe, right?
是的，没错。 Yeah, that's right.
而且，当费尼恢复教籍时，他必须宣认这些信经之一，他选择了《亚他那修信经》... And well, when Feeney was restored to the church, he had to make a confession of one of these confessions and he chose the Athanasian Creed...
其中有那种「教会之外无救恩」的伟大语言。 which has that great "outside the Church there is no salvation" kind of language.
而且就像，他似乎没有那么悔改。 And it's just like, he doesn't seem that repentant.
是的。 Yeah.
是的，没错。 Yeah, right.
他说，「这是一个好的部分。 He goes, "This is a good part.
这是一个好的部分。」 This is a good part."
是的。 Yeah.
对，对。 Right, right.
但是，是的，谢谢你提出这一点，布雷登。 But, yeah, thanks for bringing that up, Braden.
那是- That was-
是的，没问题。 Yeah, no prob.
是的。 Yeah.
所以，好的，总-... So, okay, summ-...
我会尝试非常简要地总结一下。 I'm gonna try and summarize this very briefly.
所以听起来，至少在圣餐神学中，公教和路德宗观点之 间的区别，或公教和公教观点之间的根本区别是... So it sounds like, at least in Eucharistic theology, the difference, the fundamental difference between the Catholic and the Lutheran perspective, or the Catholic and the Catholic perspective is, the...
公教徒相信饼和酒的实体被改变，实质性地改变 成我们主的身体和宝血、灵魂和神性的实体。 Is that Catholics believe that the substance of the bread and the wine are changed, substantially changed into the substance of the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord.
而路德宗的观点认为，这种改变在于增加了我们主的身体、宝血、 灵魂和神性的实体，因此在任何一种情况下仍然有真实的临在，但 在后者中，饼和酒被保留，而在前者中，它们并不真正存在。 Whereas the Lutheran perspective believes that the change consists in an addition of the substance of body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord, such that there's still a true presence in either case, but the bread and the wine are retained in the latter, whereas in the former, they aren't truly there.
此外，偶性或任何其他使用的术语。 Besides, the accidents or whatever the other term that was used.
就圣餐临在而言，这是对这里差异的公平表述吗？ Is that a fair presentation of the differences here as far as Eucharistic presence goes?
我认为总的来说，这是一个相当公平的表述，是的。 I think overall it's a pretty fair representation, yeah.
基督在其中、与之同在、在其下，或者他就是。 Christ is in, with and under or He is.
是的。 Yeah.
这本质上- That's essentially-
对。 Right.
... ...
the...
从基本的方式来说，是的。 In a basic way, yeah.
是的。 Yeah.
对。 Right.
所以转到圣餐祭献，因为基督真实临在，从某种 意义上说，这是一种祭献，我们有份于... And so moving over to the Eucharistic sacrifice, because Christ is truly present, it is a sacrifice in some sense and we part...
通过吃饼喝酒参与祭献，我们在路德宗和公教神学中都分享了救赎的益处。 By participating in the sacrifice through eating of the elements, we partake of the benefits of the atonement in both Lutheran and Catholic theology.
而路德宗对它的理解是，罪的赦免是特别地在领 受他的身体和宝血中，并且只在领受中得到的。 Whereas the Lutheran understanding of it is it's the forgiveness of sins is specifically received in, and only in the reception of His body and blood.
是的。 Yeah.
在- In the-
然后- And then the-
... ...
吃和喝，是的。 eating and drinking, yes.
是的。 Yeah.
而且你不能奉献一个共同的... And you can't offer a Co-...
你不能把基督重新奉献给天父以获得赦免或施予，你知道的，死者，那些在炼狱中的人- You can't offer Christ back up to the Father for the forgiveness or for the application, to, you know, the dead, those in purgatory-
对。 Right.
... ...
以及类似的事情。 and things of that nature.
对。 Right.
而公教的观点会承认那些事情。 Whereas the Catholic perspective would confess those things.
这就是我们在这个问题上得出的结论吗？ Is that kind of what we've come to the conclusion of in this?
是的。 Yeah.
而且，而且，我还要说我们会... And, and, and I'd say also we would...
我们说到... We speak of the, the...
因为我们使用圣餐祭献的语言，整个... Because we're using that Eucharistic sacrifice language, the whole...
整个... That whole...
仪式，整个弥撒本身，对吗？ The service, the whole mass itself, right?
但不仅仅是圣事的仪式，而是圣言，祝圣，一切，都用祭献的语言。 But not only, not only the service of the sacrament, but the word, the consecration, everything, with a sacrificial language.
所有的... All of the...
所有这一切都包含在圣餐祭献中，这就是我们会... All of it's encompassing that Eucharistic sacrifice, is how we would...
我们会如何表达它。 how we would phrase it.
是的。 Yeah.
我可以补充... Could I add to...
可以。 Yeah.
... ...
那个吗？ that maybe?
可以。 Yeah.
我认为这将是一个共识点，但也许它会... I think this will be a point of agreement but maybe it'll...
也许不会，所以... maybe it won't be, so...
我认为把弥撒分开，我知道你刚才说了与分开相反的话，但是像-... I think dividing the mass up, I know you just said the opposite of dividing it up, but like- ...
把它分开可能只是，可能会显示出一致和分歧的领域。 dividing it up might just, might show the areas of agreement and disagreement.
比如在赞美祭的元素上，在我们奉献祈祷和赞美诗等这一切的方式上 ，你知道的，例如在圣言礼仪中，我认为我们会有非常相似的神学。 Like on the sacrifice of praise element, on the way we offer up even prayer and songs of praise and all of this, you know, for instance in the liturgy of the word, I think we're gonna have a very similar theology.
我认为这将是意义上的细微差别。 I think it would be shades of meaning.
关于祭献的奉献层面，我认为我们都持相同看法。 The offertory dimension to the sacrifice, I think we're all on the same page.
在基督通过呼求圣灵而临在这一点上，我们在临在的方式上 会有一些差异，但基督以某种方式临在，在饼和酒... In the Christ becoming present through the calling down of the Holy Spirit, we're gonna have some differences on the mode of presence, but that somehow Christ becomes present, where bread and wine...
之前有饼和酒的地方。 where bread and wine had been before.
我认为我们会在这一点上达成一致。 I think we would agree on that.
只是它... It's just that it...
饼和酒发生了什么可能会是不同之处。 what happens to the bread and wine maybe would be the difference.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
然后看起来我们要分道扬镳的地方是，我们是否 能够与基督一起向天父奉献这一次基督的祭献。 And then it seems like where we're going to part company is whether we're able to offer with Christ this one sacrifice of Christ to the Father.
是这样吗... Is that...
这是对...的公平总结吗... Is that a fair kind of summation of...
是的，从我们讨论和涉及的内容来看，是的，这是对它相当公平的总结。 Yeah, from what we discussed and gotten on, yeah, that's a pretty fair summation of it.
好的。 Okay.
那么我当然感觉我对如何理解路德宗在这里的祭献神学有了更好的理解。 Then I certainly feel like I have a better understanding of how to make sense of the Lutheran sacrificial theology here.
。 .
嗯，我很高兴，因为我... Well, I'm glad because I...
我想确保我以尊重和良好的方式做到了。 I wanted to make sure I did it honorably and well.
而且我... And I...
就像我说的，我没有资格，所以... Like I said, I'm not qualified, so...
与许多其他人相比。 As compared to many others.
不，你代表LCMS发言。 No, you speak on behalf of the LCMS.
你没有给自己足够的信任。 You don't give yourself enough credit.
就是这样。 There.
非常感谢你能来和我讨论这个。 Thank you so much for coming on and discussing this with me.
我认为这对于，你知道的，非常重要和相关... I think it's very important and pertinent to, you know...
显然我们有这个... Obviously we had this...
我们刚刚就赎罪...进行了辩论... we just had this debate about the propitiatory...
我总是把那个词搞错。 I always get that word wrong.
弥撒祭献的本质，我认为这是，我们都喜欢细微差别这个词。 nature of the sacrifice of the mass, and I think that this was, we all love the word nuance.
这是对古典新教传统内不同观点的一个很好的细微解读。 It was a good nuance take of the different perspectives within classical Protestant traditions.
所以非常感谢你们俩同意来谈神学，有点极客的感觉，我希望这对所有观众都非常有帮助。 So thank you both very much for agreeing to come on and talk theology, kind of geek out, and I hope that this was very helpful to all the viewers.
也许你们俩可以给一些总结性的评论。 Maybe both of you give some concluding remarks.
什么可以... What can...
我们在哪里可以找到你？ Where can we find you?
你知道的，你所有的出版物？ You know, all your publications?
佩顿，你知道我们出版了20本书，对吗？ Peyton, you know we published 20 books, right?
而且... And...
是的。 Yes.
... ...
乔·赫什迈尔，你的... Joe Heschmeyer, your...
是的。 Yes.
来吧，推广你的东西。 Go ahead and plug your stuff.
谁想先来。 Whoever wants to go first.
佩顿，你为什么不先来？ Peyton, why don't you go first?
你想让我先来？ You want me to go first?
是的。 Yeah.
哦。 Oh.
我几乎没有什么东西。 I don't have hardly anything out there.
但我会更多地出现在布雷登的频道上。 But I'll be on Braden's channel some more.
我会与评论互动，这样我就可以与那里的每个人互动。 And I interact with the comments so I can interact with everybody on there.
我目前没有出版任何书，但是... I'm not publishing any books at the moment, but...
我所讲道的讲章，我正在讲一个将在四旬期期间在网 上发布的周中讲道系列，它们是关于基督的五伤。 my sermons that I preach, I'm preaching a midweek sermon series that's gonna be posted online for Lent, and they're about the five wounds of Christ.
不错。 Nice.
所以如果有人对此感兴趣，其中也有很多圣事神学。 So if anyone was interested in that, a lot of sacramental theology in there too.
所以这是唯一有实质内容的东西。 So that's the only thing of substance.
我没有书。 I have no books.
我没有其他正在进行的工作。 I have nothing else I'm working on.
是的。 Yes.
是的。 Yeah.
不，你忘了提到你背后墙上的画或照片。 No, you forgot to mention the painting or the picture on your wall in the back.
我甚至看不出那是什么。 I can't even tell what that is.
我妻子。 My wife.
那是一只巨嘴鸟吗？ Is that a toucan?
我妻子，在万圣节，给这个上色。 My wife, for Halloween, colored this.
我们走吧。 Let's go.
「我爱你胜过闪耀的星星。」 "I love you more than the stars that shine."
哇。 Aw.
就是这样。 There we go.
那很甜蜜。 That's sweet.
就是这样。 There we go.
然后我也有一个漂亮的十字架，是她买的。 And then I have a nice crucifix, too, that she got.
所以。 So.
那是爱的两个最伟大的表达。 That's the two greatest expressions of love.
是的。 Yes.
就是这样。 There we go.
是的。 Yes.
没错。 True.
乔？ Joe?
好的，你可以在我的播客和YouTube频道上找到我。 All right, you can find me at my podcast and YouTube channel.
我总是说播客，因为我现在是个老人了。 And I always say podcast because I'm an old man now.
无耻的教皇制，P-O-P-E-R-Y，不是P-O-T-P-U-R-R-I。 Shameless Popery, P-O-P-E-R-Y, not P-O-T-P-U-R-R-I.
然后我为公教答疑写作，并与他们一起做很多事情。 And then I write for Catholic Answers and do a lot of stuff with them.
我做演讲和所有那些。 I do talks and all that.
你可以在Catholic.com获得所有那些东西。 You can get all that stuff at Catholic.com.
然后我通常在周三上广播，这里是中部时间下午5:00到7: 00，西海岸是下午3:00到5:00，在公教答疑直播。 And then I'm usually on the air on Wednesdays, and it's 5:00 to 7:00 here in Central Time, 3:00 to 5:00 on the West Coast, on Catholic Answers Live.
所以如果你有当地的公教广播电台，我很有可能会在那里做问答，接听电话，所以。 So if you have a local Catholic radio station, there's a decent chance I'll be on doing Q&A, call in, so.
太棒了。 Awesome.
嗯，谢谢。 Well, thank you.
非常感谢你邀请我们，布雷登。 Thank you so much for having us, Braden.
这很棒。 It was great.
是的。 Yeah.
谢谢。 Thank you.
这太棒了。 This was awesome.
是的，这很棒。 Yeah, this was great.
我希望这对我们的观众有帮助，我们希望通过我 们对信仰的学习，你们的信仰也会得到加强。 I hope that this was helpful to our viewers, and we hope that by our learning of the faith, your faith will be strengthened as well.
祝你们有美好的一天，我们下次再见。 You have an amazing day, and we'll see you guys in the next one.
平安。 Peace.