- start_time:
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  text: Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World is brought to you by the StarQuest Production Network and is made possible by our many generous patrons.
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  text: If you'd like to support the podcast, please visit sqpn.com/give.
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  text: You're listening to Episode 220 of Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World, where we look at mysteries from the twin perspectives of faith and reason.
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- start_time:
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  text: In this episode, we're talking about Eucharistic miracles.
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  text: I'm Dom Bettinelli, and joining me today is Jimmy Akin.
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  text: Hey, Jimmy.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Howdy, Dom.
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  text: For centuries, people have reported witnessing miracles involving the Holy Eucharist, which Jesus declared to be his body and blood.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Sometimes, they report the Eucharist appearing to turn into flesh and blood.
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  text: What's the truth about these reports?
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  text: What should we make of them, and do they represent genuine miracles?
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  text: That's what we'll be talking about on this episode of Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World.
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- start_time:
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  text: So, Jimmy, to begin, this is a patron-requested episode, right?
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  text: Yes.
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  text: We had a, uh, very generous patron named Tim Van Megum who, uh, wanted to hear about Eucharistic miracles, and so that's what we're talking about today.
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  text: Thank you, Tim.
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  text: Thank you, Tim.
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  text: So, how do you wanna begin today's mystery?
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  text: By talking about what the Eucharist and Eucharistic miracles are.
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  text: For people in the Catholic community, and many other Christian communities, the word Eucharist will be familiar, but in some communities, it won't be.
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  text: Uh, growing up as a Protestant, I never heard the term, and I wouldn't have known what it meant, but it's fairly easy to explain.
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  text: It comes from the Greek word eucharistia, which means thanksgiving.
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  text: Uh, the Gospels indicate that, at the Last Supper, Jesus gave thanks over the bread and wine before declaring them to be his body and blood, and so the thanksgiving that Jesus gave over them eventually became the name for the whole rite.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
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  text: Uh, Jesus' thanksgiving, or eucharistia, thus gave us the name Eucharist for the Lord's Supper.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: The Eucharist can refer either to the celebration as a whole, or it can refer specifically to the consecrated elements.
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  text: And then what's a Eucharistic miracle?
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  text: Basically, a Eucharistic miracle is any miracle that occurs in connection with the Eucharist, and here we need to mention the big one first, the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, because he said that the elements are his body and blood.
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- start_time:
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  text: '"This is my body.'
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  text: This is my blood." Uh, the passages on the Last Supper and other passages in the New Testament stress this fact, and the vast majority of Christians throughout world history have understood that Jesus meant what he said.
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  text: Uh, the elements aren't simply bread and wine anymore, like they were before the consecration.
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  text: At the consecration, they become his body and blood, just like he said.
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  text: This belief is shared not only by Catholics, but also by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and large groups in the Protestant community, including Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists.
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  text: Together, these bodies represent a large majority of Christians in the world today, and it's actually only a comparatively small number of groups in the Protestant community that reject this and hold that the consecrated elements are only symbols of Christ's body.
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  text: Uh, both historically and today, a large majority of Christians teach the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
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  text: Uh, how many Christians are we talking about?
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  text: How, how large of a majority?
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  text: I haven't done the exact math, but Catholics alone are a majority of Christians in the world, more than 50%.
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  text: Uh, add to them the various Eastern Christian churches, and you're up to around 75%.
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  text: With the Protestant communities that believe in the real presence, you're probably up to around 85%, so something like 85, maybe a little more, percent of the Christians in the world today belong to churches that teach the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
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- start_time:
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  text: It's only been in the last 500 years in certain segments of the Protestant community that there's been a significant number of Christians belonging to communions that denied the real presence, and, uh, even today, that's quite a small minority of them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
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  text: Do all the groups that teach the real presence understand it the same way?
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: No.
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  text: There are differences of understanding among them on exactly how Christ is really present in the Eucharist, but they agree that, in the service, Christ really and truly does become present in the elements, so they're not just bread and wine.
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  text: And this is something that happens by God's power and promise, so however you understand it, the real presence would be a miracle, and that makes it objectively the first and greatest Eucharistic miracle.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: Then why don't people think of every single Eucharist when they use the term Eucharistic miracle?
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  text: Because it's not an obvious miracle.
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  text: There are...
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  text: There's no visible change in the elements at the consecration.
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  text: It's a kind of hidden miracle, something we know God has done because Jesus said so, but not something that's obvious to our senses.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: Um, we normally use the word miracle to refer to things that are obvious to the senses.
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  text: In fact, the Latin word miraculum means wonder or marvel, something that causes wonder or astonishment, and that tends to be associated with overt, obvious acts of God rather than God's hidden acts.
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  text: Uh, for example, if someone is converted to God, then that's accomplished by the action of God's hidden grace in his heart, and in an objective sense, every conversion is a miracle.
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  text: But conversions happen regularly, and the action of God is not obvious to the senses, so we don't automatically think of conversions as miracles.
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  text: Instead, when we think of miracles, we tend to think of rare, extraordinary happenings where God acts in a more obvious way, like when people are instantly healed of a fatal disease or when the blind suddenly get their sight back or the deaf their hearing or when a saint levitates off the ground.In the same way, the term Eucharistic miracle tends to be used for extraordinary events that go beyond what normally happens in the Eucharist, events where God's action is more obvious and can cause wonder and amazement.
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  text: What happens in these incidents?
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  text: How does God's action manifest in Eucharistic miracles?
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  text: There isn't just a single way.
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  text: Uh, probably the kind of Eucharistic miracles that most people think of today are the ones where there's a visible transformation in the consecrated elements, like the host taking on the appearance of flesh, or the chalice taking on the appearance of blood, um, the contents of the chalice.
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  text: This is the kind of Eucharistic miracle that we will primarily focus on in this episode.
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  text: Uh, but there have been other kinds of miracles reported in connection with the Eucharist in history.
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  text: What are some examples of other kinds of Eucharistic miracles?
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  text: Well, some do involve a visible transformation of the elements, but not so that the host looks like f- flesh and the contents of the chalice look like blood.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: Another kind of Eucharistic miracle involves a host that appears to bleed.
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  text: So the host continues to look like a host, a piece of bread, but it appears to bleed, uh, sometimes becoming red, sometimes with drops of blood flowing from it, uh, sometimes after someone has attempted to desecrate the host, and sometimes it just happens on its own.
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  text: Another kind of Eucharistic miracle that has been reported that involves a visible change of the elements is where they cease to look like bread and wine, and in their place people will see the Christ child, Jesus himself as a small child.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: What happens in those cases?
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  text: Does the Christ child just continue to appear or does something else happen?
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  text: Typically, the Christ child's appearance only lasts a short time, and afterwards the elements revert to the normal appearances of bread and wine.
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  text: That also sometimes happens with other Eucharis- other Eucharistic miracles that involve a change of appearance.
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  text: Uh, when the host and the contents of the chalice change to look like flesh and blood, they sometimes go back to looking like bread and wine, and sometimes they remain looking like flesh and blood even for centuries.
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  text: Uh, similarly, if a host appears to bleed, it may go back to looking like ordinary bread or it may not.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: Do all Eucharistic miracles involve a visible transformation of the elements?
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  text: No, some involve other things such as, um, who administers the elements, the survival of the elements, and the behavior of the elements.
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  text: Then let's look at each of these.
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  text: What Eucharistic miracles have been reported in connection with who administered the elements?
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Ordinarily, in the Mass, or the Divine Liturgy as it's often called in Eastern Christian circles, communion is given to the faithful by a normal human being, usually a priest.
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  text: However, there are reports of communion being given in a more extraordinary form by an angel.
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  text: For example, this was reported by the three Fatima seers, uh, Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco.
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  text: We talked about the Fatima apparitions of the Virgin Mary in episode 40, and we specifically talked about the third secret of Fatima in episode 64 and 65.
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  text: Uh, these apparitions of the Virgin Mary took place in Portugal in 1917, but the three children reported earlier supernatural experiences that had occurred beforehand.
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  text: In her second memoir of the events, Sister Lucia reported that in 1916, the year before the Marian apparitions, the Guardian Angel of Portugal appeared to the three children and taught them a prayer.
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  text: Then, later the same year, the three children were saying the prayer together, and Sister Lucia reports...
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  text: '"I don''t know how many times we had repeated this prayer when an extraordinary light shone upon us.'
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  text: We sprang up to see what was happening and beheld the angel.
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  text: He was holding a chalice in his left hand with the host suspended above it, from which some drops of blood fell into the chalice.
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  text: Leaving the chalice suspended in the air, the angel knelt down beside us."
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  text: The angel then said a new prayer with them three times, and then...
  speaker: speaker_1
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  end_time:
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  text: '"Rising, he took the chalice and the host in his hands.'
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  text: He gave the sacred host to me and shared the blood from the chalice between Jacinta and Francisco, saying as he did so, 'Take and drink the body and blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men.
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  text: Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.' Once again, he prostrated on the ground and repeated with us three times more the same prayer and then disappeared.
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  text: We remained a long time in this position, repeating the same words over and over again.
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  text: When at last we stood up, we noticed that it was already dark and therefore time to return home."
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  text: So in this encounter, the angel gave Holy Communion to the three children despite the fact that communion is normally given by a human minister, typically a priest, and this is not the only report like this.
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  text: Uh, for example, Saint Faustina Kowalska reported receiving Holy Communion from an angel more than once.
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  text: Um, one can discuss whether experiences like this were simply visions or whether they happened physically, but saints have reported receiving the Eucharist from an angel rather than a human minister.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: You said that some Eucharistic miracles involve the survival of the Eucharistic elements.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: What were you thinking about here?
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Primarily two situations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 712
    nanos: 737000000
  end_time:
    secs: 716
    nanos: 717000000
  text: Uh, first there's the survival of the consecrated elements over time.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 716
    nanos: 717000000
  end_time:
    secs: 722
    nanos: 957000000
  text: With time, you'd expect natural elements to corrupt, decay and cease looking like themselves.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 722
    nanos: 957000000
  end_time:
    secs: 726
    nanos: 977000000
  text: You know, bread gets moldy and disintegrates, and wine evaporates.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 726
    nanos: 977000000
  end_time:
    secs: 733
    nanos: 517000000
  text: Uh, if the Eucharistic elements were nothing more than normal bread and wine, you'd expect that to happen to them too.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 733
    nanos: 517000000
  end_time:
    secs: 745
    nanos: 87000000
  text: But there are cases where this is reported not to happen.Uh, "In particular, there are cases where hosts are reported not to have been corrupted even after a period of centuries.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 745
    nanos: 87000000
  end_time:
    secs: 755
    nanos: 887000000
  text: Uh, a second kind of miracle in this class involves the survival of the elements not through time, but through situations that would ordinarily destroy them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 755
    nanos: 887000000
  end_time:
    secs: 763
    nanos: 247000000
  text: For example, if you burned a piece of bread, whether leavened or unleavened, it would be expected to be reduced to ashes.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 763
    nanos: 247000000
  end_time:
    secs: 774
    nanos: 167000000
  text: But there are reports of the consecrated host surviving fires and other situations that would be expected to destroy it, and so these also have been considered Eucharistic miracles."
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 774
    nanos: 167000000
  end_time:
    secs: 779
    nanos: 388000000
  text: '"You also mentioned Eucharistic miracles in which the behavior of the elements was involved.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 779
    nanos: 388000000
  end_time:
    secs: 781
    nanos: 27000000
  text: What were you thinking about here?"
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 781
    nanos: 27000000
  end_time:
    secs: 783
    nanos: 567000000
  text: '"Uh, principally, I was thinking about two things.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 783
    nanos: 567000000
  end_time:
    secs: 791
    nanos: 847000000
  text: First, uh, Eucharistic miracles may involve unusual behavior of the consecrated elements in a visible way.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 791
    nanos: 847000000
  end_time:
    secs: 808
    nanos: 967000000
  text: Uh, for example, normal bread and wine don't spontaneously levitate above the surfaces they're located on, but there are multiple reports in history of the consecrated host or the chalice doing exactly that, uh, sometimes remaining in the air for an extended period.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 808
    nanos: 967000000
  end_time:
    secs: 814
    nanos: 127000000
  text: And second, uh, the Eucharistic elements may behave in another exceptional way.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 814
    nanos: 127000000
  end_time:
    secs: 824
    nanos: 127000000
  text: There are reports of individuals being able to subsist on nothing but the Eucharist for extended periods of time, sometimes lasting decades.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 824
    nanos: 127000000
  end_time:
    secs: 836
    nanos: 427000000
  text: Um, these would represent extraordinary fasting periods, and even receiving the Eucharist daily would not provide enough calories to allow a person to survive for decades without other food."
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 836
    nanos: 427000000
  end_time:
    secs: 846
    nanos: 787000000
  text: '"If that''s a survey of some of the different types of Eucharistic miracles that have been reported, are Eucharistic miracles reported only among Catholic Christians?"'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 846
    nanos: 787000000
  end_time:
    secs: 849
    nanos: 387000000
  text: '"No, they''re reported more broadly than that.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 849
    nanos: 387000000
  end_time:
    secs: 853
    nanos: 127000000
  text: Uh, for example, they've been reported in Eastern Orthodox Churches.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 853
    nanos: 127000000
  end_time:
    secs: 870
    nanos: 567000000
  text: In fact, as we'll hear towards the end of the episode, there's even a section in the Slajebnik, which is a sort of Orthodox equivalent of the Roman Missal and contains instructions for the Eucharistic liturgy, that deals with what to do if a Eucharistic miracle occurs during the service.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 870
    nanos: 567000000
  end_time:
    secs: 873
    nanos: 827000000
  text: I also know of a report in the Anglican Church.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 873
    nanos: 827000000
  end_time:
    secs: 880
    nanos: 287000000
  text: In fact, it came from, uh, Corpus Christi Anglican Church in Rogers, Arkansas, right near where I grew up.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 880
    nanos: 287000000
  end_time:
    secs: 886
    nanos: 927000000
  text: In 2017, they were holding a synodal mass there, and one Eucharistic miracle was reported.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 886
    nanos: 927000000
  end_time:
    secs: 897
    nanos: 247000000
  text: According to Reverend Father Jason Rice, an image of a heavenly host appeared directly over the chalice immediately after the words of consecration.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 897
    nanos: 247000000
  end_time:
    secs: 908
    nanos: 287000000
  text: In fact, there's a photograph of this occurring, and it does look like there is a glowing host above the chalice, though whether this image has a natural explanation is a separate subject.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 908
    nanos: 287000000
  end_time:
    secs: 914
    nanos: 687000000
  text: However, the point is that Eucharistic miracles are reported in other parts of the Christian community."
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 914
    nanos: 687000000
  end_time:
    secs: 920
    nanos: 767000000
  text: '"Over the last 2,000 years, there have been numerous reports of Eucharistic miracles occurring.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 920
    nanos: 767000000
  end_time:
    secs: 924
    nanos: 527000000
  text: Should we believe all of the reports involved genuine miracles?"
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 924
    nanos: 527000000
  end_time:
    secs: 925
    nanos: 847000000
  text: '"No.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 925
    nanos: 847000000
  end_time:
    secs: 934
    nanos: 367000000
  text: 2,000 years is a long time, and today, there are two billion Christians in the world, most of whom belong to churches that teach the real presence.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 934
    nanos: 367000000
  end_time:
    secs: 941
    nanos: 967000000
  text: In all that time, with all those people, there are bound to be numerous reports that do not involve genuine miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 941
    nanos: 967000000
  end_time:
    secs: 945
    nanos: 147000000
  text: Uh, undoubtedly, many have natural explanations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 945
    nanos: 147000000
  end_time:
    secs: 953
    nanos: 107000000
  text: They may be based on rumors, legends, hoaxes, misperceptions, misidentifications, and mental illness.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 953
    nanos: 107000000
  end_time:
    secs: 963
    nanos: 207000000
  text: For example, a possible natural explanation for the Rogers, Arkansas case immediately occurred to me upon looking at the photograph of the event.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 963
    nanos: 207000000
  end_time:
    secs: 983
    nanos: 767000000
  text: In this particular case, one of the questions I would ask if I was investigating the case is whether the image could have been produced by ordinary light reflecting up from the bowl of the chalice due to an accidental alignment between the chalice and one of the overhead ceiling lamps.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 983
    nanos: 767000000
  end_time:
    secs: 994
    nanos: 367000000
  text: Um, that kind of misperception can happen in any community, and as a result, the Catholic Church doesn't automatically sign off on every report of a Eucharistic miracle."
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 994
    nanos: 367000000
  end_time:
    secs: 998
    nanos: 567000000
  text: '"Does the church have a way of investigating Eucharistic miracles?"'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 998
    nanos: 567000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1007
    nanos: 107000000
  text: '"Yes, uh, typically it''s the responsibility of the local bishop to oversee the investigation of reports of the supernatural in his diocese.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1007
    nanos: 107000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1011
    nanos: 627000000
  text: That applies to private revelations, as we discussed in episode 84.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1011
    nanos: 627000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1015
    nanos: 647000000
  text: It reports to demonic possessions, uh, it in...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1015
    nanos: 647000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1023
    nanos: 667000000
  text: uh, he also investigates reports of demonic possessions, as we discussed in episode 188, and the same thing happens with reports of miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1023
    nanos: 667000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1032
    nanos: 7000000
  text: So, the local bishop is kind of the chief supernatural investigator of his diocese, only he typically doesn't do the investigations himself.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1032
    nanos: 7000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1039
    nanos: 607000000
  text: Instead, in each of these cases, he usually appo- appoints a group of experts to look into the situation.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1039
    nanos: 607000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1050
    nanos: 887000000
  text: Depending on the nature of the case, these experts can include medical doctors, scientists, theologians, other experts, and there are always priests involved.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1050
    nanos: 887000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1064
    nanos: 367000000
  text: And, like in non-religious investigations of the paranormal, the experts are supposed to look for and eliminate natural explanations for the reports before concluding the cause is supernatural.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1064
    nanos: 367000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1069
    nanos: 607000000
  text: Once the experts have given him their reports, the bishop then makes a judgment about what to do.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1069
    nanos: 607000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1077
    nanos: 887000000
  text: In the case of a demonic possession, he would authorize an exorcism, but there wouldn't be a public announcement of this fact for privacy reasons.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1077
    nanos: 887000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1096
    nanos: 807000000
  text: But in the case of private revelations and miracles, there may well be a public announcement of the bishop's conclusions, and these days, the bishop typically shares his conclusions with the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome ahead of time to get their approval before making an announcement."
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1098
    nanos: 233000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1101
    nanos: 493000000
  text: How will we be looking at Eucharistic miracles going forward today?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1101
    nanos: 493000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1109
    nanos: 194000000
  text: We'll principally be relying on a book titled A Cardiologist Examines Jesus by Franco Serafini.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1109
    nanos: 194000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1113
    nanos: 893000000
  text: As the book's title indicates, he's a cardiologist and he lives in Bologna, Italy.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1113
    nanos: 893000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1123
    nanos: 53000000
  text: Uh, his book is a review of multiple Eucharistic miracles that have been the subject of scientific studies, so it's a particularly useful resource.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1123
    nanos: 53000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1129
    nanos: 993000000
  text: What we'll do is briefly review the five major cases he covers and explain what happened.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1129
    nanos: 993000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1140
    nanos: 493000000
  text: Then in the reason and perspective segment, we'll look at what the scientific studies, uh, found about these cases, and finally, we'll have some closing remarks, uh, from the faith perspective.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1140
    nanos: 493000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1143
    nanos: 313000000
  text: Then let's take a look at the five cases.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1143
    nanos: 313000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1144
    nanos: 253000000
  text: What was the first one?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1144
    nanos: 253000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1150
    nanos: 313000000
  text: It's by far the oldest and it apparently took place in the 700s in Lanciano, Italy.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1150
    nanos: 313000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1153
    nanos: 933000000
  text: According to a document written in 1631...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1153
    nanos: 933000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1171
    nanos: 994000000
  text: '"In this city, in the convent of Saint Lancianzo, where the monks of Saint Basil lived in about 700 AD, was a monk who, not very steadfast in his faith, lived day by day doubting if the true body of Christ was in the consecrated host, and likewise, if the true blood was in the wine.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1171
    nanos: 994000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1180
    nanos: 13000000
  text: Still, never abandoned by divine grace and constant prayer, he kept praying to God that He would heal this wound in his heart.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1180
    nanos: 13000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1193
    nanos: 574000000
  text: Thus, one morning in the midst of his sacrifice, after uttering the most sacred words of consecration, while more than ever before caught up in his old mistake, he saw the bread turned into flesh and the wine turned into blood.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1193
    nanos: 574000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1206
    nanos: 693000000
  text: '''Behold the flesh and the blood of our most beloved Christ.'' At these words, the anxious people hastily ran with devotion to the altar and, and terrified, not without overflowing tears, began shouting for mercy."'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1206
    nanos: 693000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1211
    nanos: 773000000
  text: Now, normally, this would not be a very promising case to examine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1211
    nanos: 773000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1220
    nanos: 253000000
  text: Um, we don't have contemporary documentation of it, and the key source we do have was written 900 years after the event.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1220
    nanos: 253000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1227
    nanos: 793000000
  text: But what we do have are the physical relics of the reported event, and as Dr. Serafini states...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1227
    nanos: 793000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1258
    nanos: 273000000
  text: '"After many centuries, without undergoing any process of decay, which is evidently in itself a mysterious fact, a double relic has been handed over to us made of a fleshly rounded tissue, dark brown and yellowish in color, about six centimeters in diameter, thicker on the edges and thinning out centrally into a large cavity in the middle, and five solid fragments of unequal volume, yellow-brown color, of clotted blood, weighing t- altogether 16 grams."'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1258
    nanos: 753000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1279
    nanos: 433000000
  text: And in the 1970s and 1980s, the Franciscans who have custody of the relic decide to, decided to allow scientific studies of it to be done using, of course, the scientific techniques that were available at the time, which did not include DNA sequencing, as that hadn't been invented yet, but they were still better tests than at any prior point in history.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1280
    nanos: 433000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1285
    nanos: 13000000
  text: The second reported miracle Dr. Serafini covers occurred in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1285
    nanos: 13000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1286
    nanos: 653000000
  text: What happened in that case?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1286
    nanos: 653000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1301
    nanos: 653000000
  text: This case was actually a set of five reported miracles that occurred in the 1990s, three of them in 1992, one in 1994, and one in 1996, and all of them occurred in the same parish.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1301
    nanos: 653000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1314
    nanos: 73000000
  text: To understand them, as well as some of the ones we'll later cover, we need to know something about how the church handles consecrated hosts and pieces of hosts that are not edible, for one reason or another.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1314
    nanos: 73000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1323
    nanos: 233000000
  text: Going back centuries, it's been the church's understanding that the real presence of Christ remains as long as the appearances of bread and wine remain.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1323
    nanos: 233000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1331
    nanos: 433000000
  text: So even if a host has become inedible, for example, because it's fallen and gotten dirty, the real presence is still there.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1331
    nanos: 433000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1338
    nanos: 953000000
  text: As a result, when a host can't be reasonably consumed, the procedure is to dissolve the appearances of bread and wine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1338
    nanos: 953000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1341
    nanos: 773000000
  text: Uh, this is done by dissolving them in water.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1341
    nanos: 773000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1358
    nanos: 813000000
  text: And then once the appearances of bread and wine are no longer there, and thus the real presence is, has left, the water is poured into the parish's sacrorium, which is a special kind of sink that leads down into the consecrated soil of the parish rather than into the sewer system.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1358
    nanos: 813000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1364
    nanos: 753000000
  text: So, for the first of the Buenos Aires incidents, Dr. Serafini reports...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1364
    nanos: 753000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1376
    nanos: 833000000
  text: '"On the evening of Friday, May 1st, 1992, Carlos Dominguez, a lay minister of the Eucharist, noticed two crescent-shaped host fragments lying on the corporal in front of the tabernacle.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1376
    nanos: 833000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1380
    nanos: 773000000
  text: Quite possibly, they could have fallen out of the ciborium earlier on.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1380
    nanos: 773000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1390
    nanos: 653000000
  text: He mentioned it to the parish priest, Father Juan Salvador Caraballo, who told him to begin the pro- dissolving procedure explained before, thinking they were no longer fresh and edible.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1390
    nanos: 653000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1397
    nanos: 833000000
  text: The two host fragments were thus immersed in water in a small ceramic container that was then locked inside the tabernacle.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1397
    nanos: 833000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1403
    nanos: 353000000
  text: On the morning of May 8th, Father Juan checked the container for the first time and was astonished.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1403
    nanos: 353000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1407
    nanos: 333000000
  text: He spoke about what he saw with the other priests living in the same parish.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1407
    nanos: 333000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1413
    nanos: 213000000
  text: Three blood clots had formed in the water, initially covered in a white fuzz that later disappeared.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1413
    nanos: 213000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1420
    nanos: 733000000
  text: There were blood streaks on the walls of the container, as if they had been produced by some sort of explosion of the hosts themselves."
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1421
    nanos: 473000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1425
    nanos: 873000000
  text: Two days later, at two different masses, two new events took place.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1425
    nanos: 873000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1436
    nanos: 413000000
  text: '"The patent holding the consecrated host was stained with blood, not just one, but rather two distinct patents, a bronze one and a tin fish-shaped one."'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1437
    nanos: 173000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1439
    nanos: 113000000
  text: Then in 1994...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1439
    nanos: 113000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1450
    nanos: 413000000
  text: '"At the children''s morning mass on Sunday, July 24th, 1994, the lay minister distributing the Eucharist noticed a running drop of blood on the inner rim of the ciborium."'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1451
    nanos: 113000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1453
    nanos: 153000000
  text: And finally, in 1996...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1453
    nanos: 153000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1473
    nanos: 583000000
  text: '"At the end of the distribution of Holy Communion at the 7:00 PM mass on Sunday, August 18th, 1996, one of the faithful turned to the priest celebrant, Father Alejandro Puzet, with great embarrassment."She had noticed a host hidden in the base of a candlestick in front of the crucifix, which is still to this day in the right-side nave.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1473
    nanos: 583000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1480
    nanos: 484000000
  text: Father Alejandro took a look and picked up the host that had been certainly abandoned by someone with desecrating intent.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1480
    nanos: 484000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1484
    nanos: 463000000
  text: He thought of consuming it himself, but it was too dirty and dusty.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1484
    nanos: 463000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1494
    nanos: 24000000
  text: Therefore, he asked Emma Fernandez, a 77-year-old lay minister of the Eucharist, to immerse it in water and lock it in the tabernacle according to the usual procedure.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1494
    nanos: 24000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1508
    nanos: 244000000
  text: Later, Mrs. Fernandez, the only layperson who had access to the tabernacle, indeed saw something strange in the round glass container she had left in, in it, and discussed what she saw with Father Pezet eight days later on August 26th.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1508
    nanos: 244000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1520
    nanos: 724000000
  text: After immediately involving Father Eduardo Graham, Father Pezet also noticed that the host was transforming into something else, something red in color that was destined to grow in the following weeks.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1520
    nanos: 724000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1534
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  text: The dissolving host was less and less distinguishable, although the water was made more and more turbid by a red, cloud-like substance and darker jelly-like clumps whose texture resembled that of clotted blood.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1534
    nanos: 683000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1540
    nanos: 463000000
  text: Darker mold-like blooms were seen on the surface of these presumed blood clots.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1540
    nanos: 463000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1551
    nanos: 463000000
  text: All of the materials from 1992 to 1996 were collected and photographed, and the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, uh, authorized an investigation of them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1551
    nanos: 463000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1557
    nanos: 543000000
  text: The third miracle report Dr. Serafini records took place in Tixtla, Mexico.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1557
    nanos: 543000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1558
    nanos: 723000000
  text: What happened there?
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1559
    nanos: 463000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1566
    nanos: 583000000
  text: On Sunday, October 22nd, 2006, Father Raymundo Reina Esteban was celebrating mass.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1566
    nanos: 583000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1573
    nanos: 543000000
  text: Uh, he was known as Father Rayito, which means Little Ray, and that was a joke because he was over six feet tall.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1574
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1574
    nanos: 443000000
  text: .
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1574
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1575
    nanos: 203000000
  text: But...
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 1575
    nanos: 883000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1579
    nanos: 483000000
  text: Two nuns were helping with the distribution of the Eucharist for Holy Communion.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1579
    nanos: 483000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 443000000
  text: While holding a ciborium full of consecrated hosts, Sister Aurelie Maroquinn, one of the two, suddenly paused and turned pale in front of the faithful who were queuing up to receive.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1591
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
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  text: A few years later, the local p-paper, Diario 21, published an account of the events that took place on that day by giving the names of the eyewitnesses and reporting their interviews.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1602
    nanos: 63000000
  end_time:
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  text: One of them was the woman in front of whom Sister Aurelie had paused her distribution of Holy Communion.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1607
    nanos: 943000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1618
    nanos: 523000000
  text: According to this woman's recollection, the nun had returned to the altar with teary eyes and had shown the ciborium to Father Rayito after kneeling without uttering a word.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1618
    nanos: 523000000
  end_time:
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  text: One of the hosts was stained with blood.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1621
    nanos: 283000000
  end_time:
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  text: It had a moist e friable texture, so, so much so that a small fragment had come off it by gently touching it.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1628
    nanos: 423000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1641
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  text: Father Rayito and Father Leopoldo quickly talked to one another until Father Rayito loudly spoke out, "This is a miracle!" and publicly showed the host that was stained by a few drops of fresh blood.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1641
    nanos: 123000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1652
    nanos: 3000000
  text: With his booming voice, he began singing Que Viva Mi Cristo, Que Viva Mi Rey, or long live my Christ, long live my king, a hymn well-known to all Mexicans.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1652
    nanos: 3000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1655
    nanos: 43000000
  text: There were people who applauded and people who wept.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    nanos: 43000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1661
    nanos: 163000000
  text: And afterwards, the local bishop authorized a scientific investigation of the event.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1661
    nanos: 163000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1666
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  text: The fourth incident Dr. Serafini covered takes us across the world.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1666
    nanos: 83000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1667
    nanos: 263000000
  text: What happened in this case?
  speaker: speaker_0
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  end_time:
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  text: The incident took place in Sokolka, Poland, uh, which is on the east side of the country near the Belarusian border.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1675
    nanos: 823000000
  end_time:
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  text: It began on October 12th, 2008, and here's what happened.
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    nanos: 383000000
  text: The 8:30 morning mass was being celebrated by the young priest, Father Filip Dodrovski.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1686
    nanos: 383000000
  end_time:
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  text: He was being helped with the distribution of Holy Communion by Father Grzesiek Chmielewicz.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1691
    nanos: 883000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 423000000
  text: Most likely, it was he who dropped a consecrated host by mistake at that time.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1696
    nanos: 423000000
  end_time:
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  text: The series of events involved in the mishap was curious and moving.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  end_time:
    secs: 1703
    nanos: 123000000
  text: It was witnessed in great detail.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1703
    nanos: 123000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1707
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  text: One of the faithful was kneeling at the altar rail to receive Holy Communion.
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- start_time:
    secs: 1707
    nanos: 63000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1713
    nanos: 843000000
  text: Without uttering a word, that lady touched Father Grzesiek's leg, and with a glance, showed him the first step of the altar.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1713
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  end_time:
    secs: 1715
    nanos: 863000000
  text: The priest picked up the host.
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    secs: 1715
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  end_time:
    secs: 1725
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  text: It was dirty, and he decided not to consume it, but rather to immerse it in water in the vasculum, a silver container used for the cleansing of the hands that was already on the altar.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1725
    nanos: 643000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1731
    nanos: 523000000
  text: At the end of mass, Father Grzesiek put the host containing vasculum inside the tabernacle.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1731
    nanos: 523000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1745
    nanos: 23000000
  text: On the same day, parish priest, Monsignor Stanislaus Gaudziako, was either informed of the mishap or otherwise simply took notice of the water container that had been unusually stored inside the tabernacle.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1745
    nanos: 23000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1762
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  text: Thus, he asked Sister Julia Dubowski, the parish sacristan looking after candles, sacred vessels, and the overall church decor, to pour the contents of the vasculum into a larger glass vase, adding water to it and locking it in the sacristy safe, whose keys were only kept by the two of them.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1762
    nanos: 863000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1770
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  text: At 8:00 AM on the following Sunday, October 19th, Sister Julia opened the safe and smelled a bread fragrance.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1770
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1775
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  text: She thought it was from the complete dissolution of the host, but that wasn't the case.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1775
    nanos: 243000000
  end_time:
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  text: Part of the host had not yet dissolved and was partially covered by a solid red protruding stain resembling a one-by-one-and-a-half centimeter blood clot.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1786
    nanos: 123000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1789
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  text: Yet the water in the container had remained clear.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1789
    nanos: 403000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 443000000
  text: Sister Julia immediately called the parish priest, Father Stanislaus, and the other priests, who rushed over.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1795
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1798
    nanos: 283000000
  text: All of them were surprised and astonished.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1798
    nanos: 283000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1802
    nanos: 423000000
  text: At the time, they decided to maintain a strict silence about what had happened.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1802
    nanos: 423000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1807
    nanos: 523000000
  text: However, they contacted the diocese, which, again, authorized an investigation.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1807
    nanos: 523000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1815
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  text: That brings us to the final and most recent of the five cases, which also took place in Poland, but on the other side of the nation.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1815
    nanos: 443000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1816
    nanos: 563000000
  text: What happened there?
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1816
    nanos: 583000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1830
    nanos: 63000000
  text: It occurred in a place called Legnica, which is on the west side of the country near the border w- with Germany and the Czech Republic, and it started on Christmas Day in 2013, just nine years ago.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1830
    nanos: 63000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1831
    nanos: 423000000
  text: In this case-
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1832
    nanos: 373000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1836
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  text: The same event that happened in Sokolka five years earlier took place again.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1836
    nanos: 413000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1843
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  text: A consecrated host accidentally fell on the ground, more precisely on a carpet, within the sacred space of the sanctuary.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1843
    nanos: 753000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1849
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  text: It was a host that had just been dipped in the consecrated wine and became dirty upon touching the ground.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1849
    nanos: 673000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1860
    nanos: 233000000
  text: The priest then decided, like in Sokolka, to follow the procedure we already know, and he put the host in the container, a metal chalice, with simple tap water for it to dissolve.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1860
    nanos: 233000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1863
    nanos: 953000000
  text: The chalice was then kept in the tabernacle for a few days.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 1863
    nanos: 953000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1881
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  text: On January 5th, 2014, another priest, the eldest in the community, checked the sacred vessel and noticed that a crescent-shaped portion of the host, about one-half c- by one and a half centimeters in size, had detached from the rest of the unleavened bread and was turning red.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1881
    nanos: 834000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1888
    nanos: 433000000
  text: Some very clear photographs showing the different stages of the phenomenon can be seen on the parish website.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1888
    nanos: 433000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1896
    nanos: 353000000
  text: Monsignor Stefan Cyzy, the Bishop of Legnica at the time, was informed, and he requested that the observation be continued.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1896
    nanos: 353000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1903
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  text: After two weeks, the colored portion of the host was still present on the surface of the water, while the rest had completely dissolved.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1903
    nanos: 733000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1908
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  text: At that stage, the bishop set up a committee of four experts to monitor the events.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1908
    nanos: 973000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1914
    nanos: 53000000
  text: So, that's the summary of the cases covered by Dr. Serafini in his book.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1914
    nanos: 53000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1922
    nanos: 933000000
  text: Uh, these are the ones that have both had scientific investigations done and in which the results have been published.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1922
    nanos: 933000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1930
    nanos: 393000000
  text: There may have been others where investigations were ordered, but either the results weren't published or Dr. Serafini didn't know about them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1930
    nanos: 393000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1937
    nanos: 373000000
  text: Nevertheless, this provides us with a basis for looking at Eucharistic miracles from the perspectives of faith and reason.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 1937
    nanos: 373000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1949
    nanos: 673000000
  text: Before we get to our theories and our faith and reason perspectives, we'd like to take a moment to thank our patrons who make this show possible, including Kathy N., Allen P., Doreen M., Randy S., and Cody.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1949
    nanos: 673000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1960
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  text: Their generous donations at sqpn.com/give make it possible for us to continue Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World and all the shows at StarQuest.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1960
    nanos: 73000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1964
    nanos: 793000000
  text: You can join them by visiting sqpn.com/give.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1964
    nanos: 793000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1984
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  text: Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World is also brought to you in part through the generous support of our sponsors, including Aaron Ferguson Electric & Automation at aaronv.com, A-A-R-O-N v.com, making connections for life for your automation and smart home needs in North and Central Florida.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1984
    nanos: 633000000
  end_time:
    secs: 1994
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  text: Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World is also brought to you in part by Catechism Class, a dynamic weekly podcast journey through the catechism of the Catholic Church, by Greg and Jennifer Willits.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 1994
    nanos: 893000000
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  text: It's the best book club, coffee talk, and faith study group all rolled into one.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Find it in any podcast directory.
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 2001
    nanos: 393000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2006
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  text: So Jimmy, what series are there about Eucharistic miracles?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2007
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  end_time:
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  text: Well, it depends on the type of miracle being considered.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2010
    nanos: 673000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2020
    nanos: 193000000
  text: In this episode, we are considering Eucharistic miracles where the appearance of the bread and wine changes, and here, there are two principal divisions.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2020
    nanos: 193000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2031
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  text: Sometimes, the elements only briefly look like something else, such as flesh and blood, or the infant Jesus, and then they change back to looking like bread and wine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2031
    nanos: 713000000
  end_time:
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  text: If that happens, it could be that someone has had a visionary experience, uh, and you'd have to treat that under the heading of private revelation and use the criteria suited to evaluate private revelations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2045
    nanos: 313000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2058
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  text: But in those cases, there's nothing physical to examine afterwards, so in this episode, we're looking at Eucharistic miracles where there was a permanent change of appearance, and thus scientific studies can be done.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2058
    nanos: 633000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2064
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  text: There are three general types of explanations that can be involved in these cases.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2064
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    secs: 2070
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  text: First, there are natural explanations, where it turns out that nothing unusual has actually happened.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2070
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  end_time:
    secs: 2076
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  text: Second, the ultimate explanation may be supernatural, in which case a miracle has occurred.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2076
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  end_time:
    secs: 2086
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  text: And third, there could be non-supernatural, but still paranormal explanations, meaning that something strange happened, but it wasn't a miracle.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2086
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  end_time:
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  text: Let's look at each of these from the reason perspective.
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    secs: 2090
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  end_time:
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  text: First, let's talk about the non-supernatural, but still paranormal explanations.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: What could these involve, and how likely do you think such explanations are?
  speaker: speaker_0
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    secs: 2099
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  end_time:
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  text: The border between the supernatural and the paranormal is a fuzzy one, and how to dis- distinguish them depends on the definitions you use.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: They both involve something happening that is outside of what we, in the West, would consider the ordinary operation of nature.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2115
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  end_time:
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  text: However, for our present purposes, I'll distinguish between the two, uh, based on what human nature is claimed to be capable of doing and what human nature is not capable of doing.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    nanos: 193000000
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  text: Super is Latin for above, so something would be supernatural if it involves an ability that is above what human nature can do.
  speaker: speaker_1
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    secs: 2140
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  end_time:
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  text: So, if it happens, it would have to involve the action of God or a non-human spirit, like an angel or a demon.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  end_time:
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  text: However, para is Greek for alongside, and paranormal events occur alongside normal ones, and as such, they can be within the reach of human nature.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  text: Uh, human nature may not normally do certain things, but in certain cases, it might be able to accomplish them, in which case they would be paranormal, or alongside what human nature normally does.
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  end_time:
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  text: Such unusual operations of human nature are what psychic abilities are claimed to be, as we discussed in episode 79 on religion, magic, psychic phenomena, and science, and in episodes 105 and 106 on Saint Thomas Aquinas and the occult.
  speaker: speaker_1
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  end_time:
    secs: 2208
    nanos: 200000000
  text: This isn't to say that psychic abilities exist, but doctors of the church, like Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, held that they did-And so we need to consider, just hypothetically, whether any such abilities could be responsible for a permanent change in the appearances of the consecrated elements.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2208
    nanos: 200000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2213
    nanos: 719000000
  text: Have psychic abilities been reported that could produce an effect like this?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2213
    nanos: 719000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2215
    nanos: 360000000
  text: Yes.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2215
    nanos: 360000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2224
    nanos: 479000000
  text: Uh, sometimes physical mediums, meaning mediums that produce physical effects, have reported what are known as asports and apports.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2224
    nanos: 479000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2237
    nanos: 159000000
  text: Uh, the word asport comes from Latin roots that mean to carry away from, so an asport occurs when a physical object disappears from one location and reappears in another.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2237
    nanos: 159000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2250
    nanos: 539000000
  text: By contrast, the word apport comes from a Latin root meaning to bring, so an apport is an object that suddenly appears, uh, having been brought to a location by paranormal means.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2250
    nanos: 539000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2258
    nanos: 179000000
  text: This could either mean that it has suddenly materialized or that it's suddenly been brought from another location.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2258
    nanos: 179000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2273
    nanos: 859000000
  text: Asportation and apportation, uh, thus can be cases of what would more commonly be called teleportation, and by teleportation, one could hypothetically swap objects between different locations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2273
    nanos: 859000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2288
    nanos: 299000000
  text: If these phenomena turned out to be real and if God allowed it, uh, it would be possible to swap the consecrated elements for human flesh and blood from a distant location, and that could produce the reported effect.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2288
    nanos: 299000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2293
    nanos: 119000000
  text: Are there other claimed psychic abilities that can produce the same effect?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2293
    nanos: 119000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2298
    nanos: 499000000
  text: The only other one that comes to mind is psychokinesis or mind over matter.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2298
    nanos: 499000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2306
    nanos: 679000000
  text: In this case, a psychokinetic person would need to consciously or unconsciously manipulate the elements so that there was a permanent change in them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2306
    nanos: 679000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2318
    nanos: 999000000
  text: Exactly how that would work would itself involve a difficult set of questions, and I only mention it for the sake of completely mapping out the possible hypothetical explanations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2319
    nanos: 859000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2323
    nanos: 919000000
  text: Do you think any of these non-supernatural paranormal explanations have any merit?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2323
    nanos: 919000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2325
    nanos: 619000000
  text: No, I don't.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2325
    nanos: 619000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2335
    nanos: 979000000
  text: Uh, in the first place, as far as I'm aware, there have been no cases of apportation or asportation documented under tightly controlled laboratory conditions.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2335
    nanos: 979000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2340
    nanos: 639000000
  text: Instead, physical mediums claiming these abilities have been exposed as frauds.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2340
    nanos: 639000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2359
    nanos: 559000000
  text: And while there are parapsychological studies supporting the existence of psychokinesis, they don't involve the kind of psychokinesis needed to molecularly transform one substance into another, much less do they deal with the thorny metaphysical questions that would be involved in things like consecrated elements.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2359
    nanos: 559000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2368
    nanos: 59000000
  text: Furthermore, as I often say on Mysterious World, every phenomenon needs to be taken at face value until we have evidence otherwise.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2368
    nanos: 59000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2384
    nanos: 279000000
  text: So Eucharistic miracle reports present the events as supernatural ones, so if Eucharistic miracles involve anything unusual, they should be understood as supernatural until we have evidence otherwise, and we don't have such evidence.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2384
    nanos: 279000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2390
    nanos: 139000000
  text: So I don't think that we need to devote further attention to hypothetical paranormal explanations.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2390
    nanos: 139000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2393
    nanos: 799000000
  text: Then let's look at possible natural explanations.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2393
    nanos: 799000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2396
    nanos: 99000000
  text: What might be involved here?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2396
    nanos: 99000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2417
    nanos: 599000000
  text: 'In the cases we''re considering, which all involve objects that can be scientifically studied, we''re not dealing with accounts that could be chalked up to rumor, legends, mental illness or misperceptions, so there are only two remaining natural explanations that could be involved: misidentifications and hoaxes.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2417
    nanos: 599000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2423
    nanos: 319000000
  text: How could misidentification be involved, and how would that differ from misperception?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2423
    nanos: 319000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2439
    nanos: 59000000
  text: In a case of misperception, someone would falsely perceive a phenomenon, like seeing something under poor viewing conditions, such as in the distance, in the dark, or only for a brief moment, resulting in an erroneous sensory perception.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2439
    nanos: 59000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2449
    nanos: 899000000
  text: But that wouldn't apply in these cases where the relevant objects have been observed in good viewing conditions, up close, in full light, and over a long period of time.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2449
    nanos: 899000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2452
    nanos: 279000000
  text: So there's no misperception here.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2452
    nanos: 279000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2458
    nanos: 939000000
  text: These objects genuinely look like they're flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean they've been correctly identified.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2458
    nanos: 939000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2467
    nanos: 479000000
  text: They might look like flesh and blood, but this might be misidentification involving something else that looks like flesh and blood.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2467
    nanos: 479000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2469
    nanos: 859000000
  text: What kind of thing might that be?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2469
    nanos: 859000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2476
    nanos: 119000000
  text: One possibility is a bacterium known as Serratia marcescens.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2476
    nanos: 119000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2480
    nanos: 139000000
  text: Uh, this bacteria was discovered in 1819.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2480
    nanos: 139000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2488
    nanos: 219000000
  text: It is red in color, and it can grow on wheat, meaning it could grow on hosts and make them look like they're bleeding.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2488
    nanos: 219000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2498
    nanos: 679000000
  text: As a result, it's been proposed as a possible natural explanation for hosts that appear to bleed, and this may be the explanation for some reports.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2498
    nanos: 679000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2504
    nanos: 19000000
  text: Do you think it could be responsible for any of the reports Dr. Serafini covered in his book?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2504
    nanos: 19000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2516
    nanos: 359000000
  text: No, because all of these were examined under microscopes, and the presence of a rod-shaped bacterium like Serratia marcescens, uh, would have been immediately obvious.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2516
    nanos: 359000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2524
    nanos: 459000000
  text: Uh, not only did the scientists involved not see this rod-shaped bacterium, they reported seeing human cells.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2524
    nanos: 459000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2530
    nanos: 799000000
  text: So despite the appeals of skeptics to this bacterium, it won't explain the cases that we're examining.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2530
    nanos: 799000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2536
    nanos: 59000000
  text: What does that leave us with as a natural explanation for the cases we're looking at?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2536
    nanos: 199000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2538
    nanos: 699000000
  text: Essentially, it would leave us with hoaxes.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2538
    nanos: 699000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2577
    nanos: 686000000
  text: Uh, given the vast 2,000-year length of time involved and the vast number of Christians in the world, including the two billion alive today, frauds involving Eucharistic miracles undoubtedly have been committed by various individuals in history for reasons including fame, profit, mental illness and simply pranking others.But the question is whether the scientific evidence supports the idea of hoaxes in these five cases, because no matter how many cases are explained by natural means, all it takes is one case that can't be explained this way to prove the reality of a phenomenon.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2577
    nanos: 686000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2588
    nanos: 505000000
  text: All you need is one genuinely alien UFO, or one genuine Bigfoot encounter, or one genuine Eucharistic miracle, and you've shown that the phenomenon is real.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2588
    nanos: 505000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2601
    nanos: 485000000
  text: If you were a skeptical materialist, someone who didn't believe that miracles were possible, and you were going to propose fraud as an explanation for these cases, what aspects of them would you focus on?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2601
    nanos: 485000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2606
    nanos: 725000000
  text: I'd focus on what's known as prov- provenance or chain of custody.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2606
    nanos: 725000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2613
    nanos: 805000000
  text: Uh, that is, I'd focus on what happened to the elements before and during the period of scientific examination.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2613
    nanos: 805000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2619
    nanos: 945000000
  text: Provenance is a concept that often comes up in fields like art and archeology.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2619
    nanos: 945000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2625
    nanos: 585000000
  text: It can be important to know the history of an artifact in order to establish whether or not it's genuine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2625
    nanos: 585000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2638
    nanos: 826000000
  text: For example, suppose that you're an archeologist at a dig in Egypt, and while you're excavating a site, your ground-penetrating radar indicates that there is a hidden chamber 10 feet underground.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2638
    nanos: 826000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2642
    nanos: 745000000
  text: So, you get your diggers to work at making a 10-foot hole in the earth.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2642
    nanos: 745000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2651
    nanos: 65000000
  text: The earth is densely packed and obviously hasn't been disturbed since ancient times, and then you get down to the hidden chamber and open it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2651
    nanos: 65000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2654
    nanos: 825000000
  text: And inside, you find a statuette of an Egyptian god.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2654
    nanos: 825000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2658
    nanos: 645000000
  text: Let's say Thoth, the ibis-headed god of the moon and writing.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2658
    nanos: 645000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2684
    nanos: 765000000
  text: You found this statuette in what archeologists call in situ, a Latin phrase meaning at the site of discovery, and since you dug through 10 feet of earth that hadn't been disturbed in centuries, there's no realistic chance that an antiquities forger managed to plant the statuette here, so you have very high confidence that it's a genuine ancient Egyptian artifact.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2684
    nanos: 765000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2690
    nanos: 465000000
  text: But now suppose that you're taking a break from your dig and you're going out to lunch in Cairo.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2690
    nanos: 465000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2692
    nanos: 825000000
  text: On your way to the restaurant...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2692
    nanos: 825000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2696
    nanos: 125000000
  text: and by the way, I've been to restaurants in Cairo.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2696
    nanos: 125000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2699
    nanos: 325000000
  text: Use hand sanitizer.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2699
    nanos: 325000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2700
    nanos: 406000000
  text: I'm just saying.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2700
    nanos: 406000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2707
    nanos: 745000000
  text: Um, in any event, on your way to the restaurant, you pass an antique dealer shop and decide to take a look.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2707
    nanos: 745000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2716
    nanos: 245000000
  text: Inside the shop, you discover that he also has a statuette of Thoth, and it looks a lot like the one you just dug up.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2716
    nanos: 245000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2724
    nanos: 426000000
  text: But you can't be as confident that it's a genuine artifact, because the antiquities market has lots of frauds on it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2724
    nanos: 426000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2735
    nanos: 405000000
  text: Uh, antiquities forgers regularly make fake copies of ancient artifacts so they can get money, and the statuette you're looking at in the shop could be such a fake.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2735
    nanos: 405000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2740
    nanos: 565000000
  text: There are ways experts can try to detect such fakes, but it isn't always easy.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2740
    nanos: 565000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2745
    nanos: 565000000
  text: Sometimes antiquities forgers are so good, they can slip things past experts.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2745
    nanos: 565000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2753
    nanos: 25000000
  text: And the key reason that you can't be confident of the statuette in the shop is that you didn't find it in situ.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2753
    nanos: 25000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2754
    nanos: 705000000
  text: It's not at the original site.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2754
    nanos: 705000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2757
    nanos: 785000000
  text: It's in a shop, and you don't know how it got there.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2757
    nanos: 785000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2765
    nanos: 845000000
  text: You don't know its provenance or chain of custody, how it allegedly got from the site of discovery to the shop where you're seeing it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2765
    nanos: 845000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2778
    nanos: 505000000
  text: The same thing can happen in the art world, where it can be very important to know the history of a painting and who owned it over the years in order to establish that it's not a recent creation by an art forger.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2778
    nanos: 505000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2786
    nanos: 365000000
  text: And of course, the same thing applies in the legal world with, with the chain of custody of evidence being important in criminal trials.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2786
    nanos: 365000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2787
    nanos: 425000000
  text: Exactly.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2787
    nanos: 425000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2792
    nanos: 345000000
  text: That's why the police try to rigorously document the collection of evidence at the scene of a crime.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2792
    nanos: 345000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2794
    nanos: 425000000
  text: They photograph it first.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2794
    nanos: 425000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2798
    nanos: 225000000
  text: They try to avoid contaminating it at the scene.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2798
    nanos: 225000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2799
    nanos: 465000000
  text: They bag it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2799
    nanos: 465000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2802
    nanos: 325000000
  text: They make a log of the evidence and who has it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2802
    nanos: 325000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2808
    nanos: 325000000
  text: They may even videotape the collection procedure, and then they store it in a secure room.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2808
    nanos: 325000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2815
    nanos: 365000000
  text: They document everyone who has access to this room, and then they turn it over to a qualified forensics lab.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2815
    nanos: 365000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2828
    nanos: 45000000
  text: Even then, the chain of custody is still documented, because there can be laboratory shenanigans in which evidence is contaminated or accidentally or deliberately altered, so they try to be really careful.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2828
    nanos: 45000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2834
    nanos: 425000000
  text: And if attorneys can impeach the chain of custody, they may be able to get their clients declared innocent.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2834
    nanos: 425000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2843
    nanos: 505000000
  text: How, if you were a skeptical materialist, would you use this to impeach the chain of custody of the five Eucharistic miracles we're considering?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2843
    nanos: 505000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2847
    nanos: 345000000
  text: I would argue that we don't have perfect chains of custody on them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2847
    nanos: 345000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2850
    nanos: 25000000
  text: The worst is the Lanciano miracle.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2850
    nanos: 25000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2854
    nanos: 305000000
  text: In that case, we don't know the when, how, and who of it all.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2854
    nanos: 305000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2862
    nanos: 965000000
  text: The miracle allegedly occurred in the 700s, but the earliest document describing its history is from 900 years later.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2862
    nanos: 965000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 645000000
  text: And from an evidential perspective, that's a terrible record of its provenance.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2867
    nanos: 645000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2878
    nanos: 285000000
  text: Uh, all we really have is the physical artifact itself, and we can't place a lot of confidence in an account written 900 years later with no intervening documentation.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2878
    nanos: 285000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2889
    nanos: 965000000
  text: So, even if the scientific tests show that this is human tissue, how do we know someone didn't just get some human tissue in the early Middle Ages and pass it off as a Eucharistic miracle?
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2889
    nanos: 965000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2892
    nanos: 645000000
  text: What about the later cases?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2892
    nanos: 645000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2894
    nanos: 765000000
  text: Do they have better chains of custody?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2894
    nanos: 765000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2905
    nanos: 725000000
  text: From one perspective, yes, uh, because in these cases, we have contemporary documentation of how the relics were collected, uh, who had custody of them, and so forth.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2905
    nanos: 725000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2911
    nanos: 945000000
  text: However, even after they were collected, they weren't always stored in super secure conditions.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2911
    nanos: 945000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2948
    nanos: 571000000
  text: Uh, often they were initially stored in a tabernacle in a parish, and tabernacles are locked to prevent desecration of the Eucharist.But there's often more than one key to a tabernacle, so especially in cases where the host initially appeared normal and then changed appearance in the tabernacle while they were trying to dissolve it in water, how do we know a nun or a priest who had a key didn't unlock the tabernacle, then dropped some human tissue into the water, making people think a Eucharistic miracle had occurred when no one was looking?
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2948
    nanos: 571000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2952
    nanos: 591000000
  text: Doesn't the same thing apply to evidence in crime cases?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2952
    nanos: 591000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2961
    nanos: 592000000
  text: Police evidence lockers also have keys, so we can't rule out the possibility that someone with a key got into the evidence locker and tampered with or planted evidence.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 2961
    nanos: 592000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2968
    nanos: 611000000
  text: That's correct, and yet the courts don't automatically throw out evidence just because this is a hypothetical possibility.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2968
    nanos: 611000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2983
    nanos: 51000000
  text: It's one thing if you have reason to think a particular police department or police official is corrupt and would deliberately tamper with evidence, but at some point, you have to trust people whose job it is to be trustworthy.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2983
    nanos: 51000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2990
    nanos: 191000000
  text: So unless you can impeach a particular office or officer, courts still honor the evidence the police have.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2990
    nanos: 191000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2994
    nanos: 391000000
  text: The same standard needs to be applied in the case of Eucharistic miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2994
    nanos: 391000000
  end_time:
    secs: 2998
    nanos: 231000000
  text: Like the police, priests and nuns are supposed to be trustworthy.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 2998
    nanos: 231000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3002
    nanos: 411000000
  text: Uh, like the police, they aren't always trustworthy, but it's part of their job.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3002
    nanos: 411000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3017
    nanos: 531000000
  text: And so unless you have evidence impeaching a particular priest or nun who had custody, then I think we need to take them at their word and give the, give credence to the claim that the reported Eucharistic miracle hasn't been tampered with since it was collected.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3017
    nanos: 611000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3021
    nanos: 711000000
  text: What about cases where the miracle occurred during mass?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3021
    nanos: 711000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3026
    nanos: 131000000
  text: In those cases, the miracle happened immediately, not while locked away from public view.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3026
    nanos: 131000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3030
    nanos: 131000000
  text: Instead, if it was at a typical parish mass, it may have happened in front of hundreds of people.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3030
    nanos: 131000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3033
    nanos: 691000000
  text: There are a couple of reasons for caution here.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3033
    nanos: 691000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3043
    nanos: 151000000
  text: First, stage magicians use sleight-of-hand techniques to make objects seem to appear and disappear in front of hundreds of people a- all the time.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3043
    nanos: 151000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3052
    nanos: 531000000
  text: If you're a stage magician, that's part of your job, and so even when hundreds of people are watching, it doesn't rule out fraud due to sleight of hand.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3052
    nanos: 531000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3060
    nanos: 631000000
  text: However, secondly and more importantly, the moment of the miracle isn't typically witnessed by hundreds of people.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3060
    nanos: 631000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3066
    nanos: 691000000
  text: At mass, people are all going about their business with their eyes pointed in lots of different directions.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3066
    nanos: 691000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3076
    nanos: 311000000
  text: What happens in this type of case is that usually nobody reports seeing the moment that the change in the host or chalice takes place.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3076
    nanos: 311000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3086
    nanos: 811000000
  text: Instead, someone, usually one person, looks down and sees something strange, like a host that has begun to bleed or a piece of flesh they thought had been a host.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3086
    nanos: 811000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3096
    nanos: 211000000
  text: Then this is brought to the attention of the priest who's celebrating mass, it gets hailed as a miracle or possible miracle, and they put it in the tabernacle.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3096
    nanos: 211000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3107
    nanos: 571000000
  text: This means that we have one initial witness to something strange, and that witness often doesn't claim to have seen the moment of transformation.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3107
    nanos: 571000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3130
    nanos: 111000000
  text: Consequently, from a skeptical viewpoint, we can't rule out that someone, either the witness or someone else, didn't do something surreptitious to make it look like a miracle had happened, like substituting a piece of flesh, substituting a host that they had previously squirted blood on, or even squirting blood on it at the moment using sleight of hand.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3130
    nanos: 111000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3134
    nanos: 391000000
  text: But you can't simply assert that this is what happened in these cases.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3134
    nanos: 391000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3135
    nanos: 951000000
  text: Wouldn't you need evidence to make that claim?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3135
    nanos: 951000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3143
    nanos: 711000000
  text: It's true that a skeptic cannot simply assert that fraud must have been involved in a particular case.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3143
    nanos: 711000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3183
    nanos: 611000000
  text: However, if we're talking about just a handful of cases, and if the most likely natural explanation for something is fraud, then in light of the fact that natural explanations are more common for unusual phenomena than paranormal or supernatural ones, it can be reasonable to propose fraud and say, "We're only looking at a small number of cases here, and since natural explanations are the most common, I think these most likely have a natural cause, and the most likely natural cause is fraud, so I propose that's what happened in these cases." And I think one can rationally make such a proposal.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3183
    nanos: 611000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3193
    nanos: 751000000
  text: What one couldn't rationally do is assert such a proposal if there is other evidence that makes it unlikely.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3193
    nanos: 751000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3199
    nanos: 591000000
  text: Then let's have you stop pretending to be a skeptical materialist and look at the other side of the issue.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3199
    nanos: 591000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3204
    nanos: 291000000
  text: Is there evidence that would make the fraud prop- pro- proposal unlikely?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3204
    nanos: 291000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3209
    nanos: 551000000
  text: Considering the other side of the equation, I think there are several arguments that one can make.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3209
    nanos: 551000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3218
    nanos: 351000000
  text: Uh, the first one involves the commonalities that the scientific studies have turned up when the relics have been examined in laboratory settings.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3218
    nanos: 351000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3223
    nanos: 831000000
  text: Um, on this argument, it isn't any one case that disproves fraud.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3223
    nanos: 831000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3230
    nanos: 451000000
  text: Instead, it's all five taken together, uh, that display qualities that make fraud unlikely.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3230
    nanos: 451000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3239
    nanos: 351000000
  text: For example, let's look at a hypothetical scenario, and I, I wanna make it clear up front that this is a hypothetical scenario, not one that we have scientific proof of.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3239
    nanos: 351000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3261
    nanos: 631000000
  text: But suppose, uh, for purposes of making the concept clear, suppose we ran DNA tests on the relics of all five cases, from Lanciano in the 700s to Legnica in 2013, and suppose that it turned out that all of the relics had the exact same genetic code, meaning that they came from the same individual.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3261
    nanos: 631000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3299
    nanos: 837000000
  text: It is unlikely in the extreme, uh, astronomically unlikely, that fraudsters across the world in different years would be able to both get and then fraudulently plant biological material with the DNA of the same person in all five events.Uh, that's especially unlikely in the Lanciano case, because even though we don't have a chain of custody going back to the 700s, we do have a chain of custody that goes back at least four centuries, and nobody living four centuries ago would've had the same DNA as someone living today.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3299
    nanos: 837000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3313
    nanos: 737000000
  text: So, as this illustration makes clear, the scientific study of the five cases could reveal commonalities among them, like them all having the same DNA, that would make fraud very, very unlikely.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3313
    nanos: 737000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3317
    nanos: 777000000
  text: You see, that's a hypothetical case to illustrate the concept.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3317
    nanos: 777000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3321
    nanos: 397000000
  text: So, we don't have that kind of DNA- DNA evidence.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3321
    nanos: 397000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3322
    nanos: 257000000
  text: Why not?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3322
    nanos: 277000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3325
    nanos: 657000000
  text: In the case of Lanciano, it's because the last...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3325
    nanos: 657000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3341
    nanos: 277000000
  text: It was last studied in the 1980s, when modern DNA sequencing didn't exist, and in the case of Sokolka, in 2008, despite the fact that DNA testing did exist at the time, they strangely didn't do it, and ran other tests instead.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3341
    nanos: 277000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3356
    nanos: 917000000
  text: In the case of the other three, uh, Buenos Aires, Tixtla, and Legnica, they did do DNA testing, but they weren't able to establish results from Buenos Aires and Tixtla, and they only got partial results from Legnica.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3356
    nanos: 917000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3363
    nanos: 557000000
  text: So, no, we don't have the ability to compare the DNA of the miracles and see if they came from the same individual.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3363
    nanos: 557000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3369
    nanos: 37000000
  text: Why weren't they able to get usable DNA results from the samples they did test?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3369
    nanos: 37000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3371
    nanos: 777000000
  text: There are several potential reasons.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3371
    nanos: 777000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3376
    nanos: 477000000
  text: One is that DNA technology has been, uh, rapidly developing.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3376
    nanos: 477000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3383
    nanos: 257000000
  text: It's better now than it was in the 1990s, but Buenos Aires was tested in the 1990s.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3383
    nanos: 257000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3391
    nanos: 497000000
  text: Also, the scientists were only allowed to take very small samples, and doing that makes it harder to develop a useful DNA profile.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3391
    nanos: 497000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3397
    nanos: 717000000
  text: You can tell basic things, like this is human DNA, but you can't profile an individual.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3397
    nanos: 717000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3407
    nanos: 837000000
  text: And finally, the relics of the reported miracles were not stored under scientific laboratory conditions, and DNA degrades over time if you don't take care of it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3407
    nanos: 837000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3420
    nanos: 977000000
  text: Uh, in these cases, the relics were stored at room temperature without preservative agents, and in improper storage media, such as distilled water, in one case, and distilled water causes cells to burst.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3420
    nanos: 977000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3429
    nanos: 737000000
  text: Um, as a result of these factors, the DNA was too degraded for them to build a genetic profile of a single individual.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3429
    nanos: 737000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3433
    nanos: 297000000
  text: Then let's talk about what the tests did find.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3433
    nanos: 297000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3437
    nanos: 377000000
  text: What did they find when they looked at the blood associated with these relics?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3437
    nanos: 377000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3456
    nanos: 777000000
  text: It's unfortunate that they didn't run identical tests in each case, meaning we can't directly compare all five cases on each test, but they isolated blood in three of the cases, uh, Lanciano, Buenos Aires, and Tixtla, and in each case, it turned out to be human blood.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3456
    nanos: 777000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3459
    nanos: 737000000
  text: So, whoever these samples came from, they were human.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3459
    nanos: 737000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3466
    nanos: 377000000
  text: Also, in two cases, Lanciano and Tixtla, they were able to determine the blood type.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3466
    nanos: 377000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3474
    nanos: 737000000
  text: There are four general blood types, type O blood, type A blood, type B blood, and type AB blood.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3474
    nanos: 737000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3482
    nanos: 557000000
  text: Of these, type AB is the rarest, with only about 5% or 1 in 20 people having it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3482
    nanos: 557000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3487
    nanos: 437000000
  text: Both Lanciano and Tixtla involved AB blood.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3487
    nanos: 437000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3497
    nanos: 497000000
  text: The odds of that happening by random chance, if you picked two random people outta the world, would be 20 times 20, or 1 in 400.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3497
    nanos: 497000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3508
    nanos: 697000000
  text: Even if you set aside the earlier sample on the ground that it must have some blood type, the odds that the second would have the same type of blood would only be 5%, or 1 in 20.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3508
    nanos: 697000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3516
    nanos: 317000000
  text: So, regardless of how you wanna look at it, the odds of this being due to random chance are low, either 1 in 20 or 1 in 400.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3516
    nanos: 317000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3521
    nanos: 897000000
  text: Uh, that would count as evidence in favor of the miraculous as opposed to hoaxes.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3522
    nanos: 857000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3528
    nanos: 397000000
  text: In addition to the four major blood groups, there's also whether someone's blood is Rh-positive or Rh-negative.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3528
    nanos: 397000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3530
    nanos: 917000000
  text: Did they find anything out in this regard?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3530
    nanos: 917000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3540
    nanos: 197000000
  text: In 2010, there was a test on the Tixtla blood that revealed it was Rh-negative, and AB-negative is the rarest blood type in the world.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3540
    nanos: 197000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3545
    nanos: 757000000
  text: Only 0.5%, or 1 in 200 people, has that.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3545
    nanos: 757000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3551
    nanos: 637000000
  text: Unfortunately, they only did this in the case of Tixtla, so we don't have anything to compare it with.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3551
    nanos: 637000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3555
    nanos: 317000000
  text: It wasn't just blood that was involved in these incidents, though.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3555
    nanos: 317000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3559
    nanos: 957000000
  text: In Lanciano's case, a host reportedly turned into a piece of solid tissue.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3559
    nanos: 957000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3561
    nanos: 937000000
  text: What'd they find when they studied that?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3561
    nanos: 957000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3564
    nanos: 337000000
  text: They found out it was made of heart muscle.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3564
    nanos: 337000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3570
    nanos: 317000000
  text: In fact, it was a cross-section of the human heart, and that's part of why it's got a big hole in the middle of it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3570
    nanos: 317000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3587
    nanos: 377000000
  text: And here's where things get stranger, because it turns out that it looks like heart muscle tissue was found in the other four cases as well, even the ones that they tried to dissolve, um...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3587
    nanos: 377000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3592
    nanos: 157000000
  text: Where they tried to dissolve a dirty host in water, and it grew what looked like a blood clot.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3592
    nanos: 157000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3607
    nanos: 137000000
  text: It wasn't a blood clot, but contained heart muscle tissue, and that's really interesting, because it poses further challenges to the hoax hypothesis, because heart muscle tissue isn't easy to get.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3607
    nanos: 137000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3609
    nanos: 977000000
  text: Uh, you have to cut a person open to get it.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3609
    nanos: 977000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3616
    nanos: 497000000
  text: So why, if these were due to hoaxes, would it be heart muscle tissue in all five cases?
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3616
    nanos: 497000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3623
    nanos: 557000000
  text: It would be much easier to get tissue from other muscles that don't require you to wrench the chest cavity open.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3623
    nanos: 557000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3630
    nanos: 597000000
  text: Hoaxers would more naturally take the low-hanging fruit and get muscle tissue that was easier to obtain.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3630
    nanos: 597000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3637
    nanos: 137000000
  text: And even if you cut open a cadaver to get some heart muscle tissue, it would still look solid.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3637
    nanos: 137000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3639
    nanos: 877000000
  text: So, why would it look like a blood clot?
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3639
    nanos: 877000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3644
    nanos: 577000000
  text: Um, this is just really strange from the perspective of hoaxing.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3645
    nanos: 735000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3648
    nanos: 835000000
  text: Were there other qualities that the relics had in common?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3648
    nanos: 835000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3650
    nanos: 15000000
  text: Yes.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3650
    nanos: 15000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3661
    nanos: 375000000
  text: In four of the cases, the heart muscle tissue looked like it came from a person who had just suffered severe trauma, not someone who had died peacefully.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3661
    nanos: 375000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3663
    nanos: 896000000
  text: 'Dr. Serafini explains:'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3663
    nanos: 896000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3690
    nanos: 536000000
  text: '"The heart muscle tissues of Buenos Aires, Ixtla, Sokotra, and Legnica all revealed specific pathological signs suggestive of a common and narrow differential diagnosis, a limited number of medical and traumatic conditions that would give rise to the abnormal features seen in these tissues, all linked with extreme physical, emotional, and spiritual suffering in broader, non-medical terms.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3690
    nanos: 536000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3699
    nanos: 575000000
  text: We know that the cardiac tissue identified in these four miracles came from a heart that was experiencing terrible suffering, gripped by wrenching spasms.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3699
    nanos: 575000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3715
    nanos: 595000000
  text: The pathological picture we just described is that of stress-induced cardiomyopathy, which anatomical pathologists have identified for many decades in victims of plane crashes, or murders after violent beating, and in deaths by stroke or suffocation.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3715
    nanos: 595000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3732
    nanos: 355000000
  text: Hence, all those situations in which an otherwise previously healthy heart is exposed for a few minutes, hours, or rarely days, to an extremely strong physical stress, or even just an emotional one, such as the fear or certainty of imminent death."
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3732
    nanos: 355000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3737
    nanos: 656000000
  text: All of that is consistent, of course, with Jesus' passion and his death on the cross.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3737
    nanos: 656000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3742
    nanos: 576000000
  text: So what can we say about Eucharistic miracles from the faith perspective?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3742
    nanos: 576000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3744
    nanos: 976000000
  text: First, why would God do them?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3744
    nanos: 976000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3750
    nanos: 196000000
  text: To strengthen people's faith, which is a reason God commonly does miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3750
    nanos: 196000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3759
    nanos: 896000000
  text: By performing an action that stands out noticeably against the background of natural phenomena, God shows us that He exists and that He intervenes in the world.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3759
    nanos: 896000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3778
    nanos: 75000000
  text: Further, by doing specifically Eucharistic miracles, He strengthens people's faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and in some cases, like when a host has been dropped or desecrated and a mir- and a miracle happens, it can be a reminder of the reverence we need to show the Eucharist, because Christ is really there.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3778
    nanos: 75000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3786
    nanos: 155000000
  text: Earlier, we talked about how Eucharistic miracles are reported in non-Catholic churches, such as among the Eastern Orthodox.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3786
    nanos: 155000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3790
    nanos: 935000000
  text: Why would God do Eucharistic miracles outside the Catholic Church?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3790
    nanos: 935000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3794
    nanos: 235000000
  text: Because non-Catholics need to know these things also.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3794
    nanos: 235000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3797
    nanos: 215000000
  text: Uh, miracles aren't just confined to the Catholic community.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3797
    nanos: 215000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3798
    nanos: 495000000
  text: God loves everybody.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3798
    nanos: 495000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3807
    nanos: 915000000
  text: As Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3807
    nanos: 915000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3812
    nanos: 655000000
  text: So if someone's a non-Catholic and in need of healing, God may heal them.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3812
    nanos: 655000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3816
    nanos: 475000000
  text: And if a Eucharistic miracle will help them, God may do one.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3816
    nanos: 475000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3822
    nanos: 655000000
  text: Sometimes people think that the Eucharist involves a kind of time warp back to Jesus' suffering on the cross.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3822
    nanos: 655000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3828
    nanos: 595000000
  text: The fact that the Eucharistic miracles we've covered suggest a suffering person could support that view.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3828
    nanos: 595000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3830
    nanos: 875000000
  text: Is that how we should understand them?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3830
    nanos: 875000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3832
    nanos: 335000000
  text: No.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3832
    nanos: 335000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3840
    nanos: 175000000
  text: Uh, the church understands that the Eucharist makes Jesus present as he is today, and today, he's in heaven.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3840
    nanos: 175000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3842
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  text: Uh, this has been understood for a long time.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3842
    nanos: 715000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3852
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  text: So for example, uh, Saint Thomas Aquinas understands the Eucharist as making present the body of Jesus, which is currently in heaven, not on the cross.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3852
    nanos: 115000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3859
    nanos: 255000000
  text: Now, you could challenge this by pointing out that Aquinas lived before Albert Einstein, so they didn't have the concept of time warps.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3859
    nanos: 255000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3866
    nanos: 915000000
  text: Uh, you could also challenge it and say, "Well, that's just Aquinas' theological opinion," but actually it isn't.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3866
    nanos: 915000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 495000000
  text: It's an actual church teaching.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3868
    nanos: 495000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3879
    nanos: 455000000
  text: Thus, in 1968, Pope Pau- uh, Pope Saint Paul VI wrote a profession of faith called The Credo of the People of God in which it states...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3879
    nanos: 455000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3891
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  text: '"The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord, glorious in heaven, is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the sacrament in the many places on Earth where mass is celebrated."'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3891
    nanos: 495000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3895
    nanos: 615000000
  text: So despite what you hear, the Eucharist doesn't involve a time warp.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3895
    nanos: 715000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3904
    nanos: 615000000
  text: The church teaches that the real presence remains for as long as the elements appear to be bread and wine, but when they no longer look like bread and wine, the real presence ceases.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3904
    nanos: 615000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3910
    nanos: 975000000
  text: In the Eucharistic miracles we've been considering today, the appearance of the elements permanently changes.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3910
    nanos: 975000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3914
    nanos: 55000000
  text: Does that mean that Christ is no longer present?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3914
    nanos: 55000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3918
    nanos: 995000000
  text: So far as I'm aware, the church has no teaching on this and the matter is disputed.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3918
    nanos: 995000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3926
    nanos: 615000000
  text: For example, Saint Thomas Aquinas holds that Christ is still present, even though the elements no longer look like bread and wine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3926
    nanos: 615000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3929
    nanos: 415000000
  text: In the Summa Theologiae, he writes...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3929
    nanos: 415000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3941
    nanos: 735000000
  text: '"While the dimensions of the elements remain the same as before, there is a miraculous change wrought in the other accidents, such as shape, color, and the rest, so that flesh or blood is seen.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3941
    nanos: 735000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3961
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  text: And as was said already, this is not deception, because it is done to represent the truth, namely to show by this miraculous apparition that Christ's body and blood are truly in this sacrament, and thus it is clear that as the dimensions remain, the body of Christ truly remains in this sacrament."
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 3961
    nanos: 595000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3966
    nanos: 615000000
  text: On the other hand, this view is not universally shared in the Christian community.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3966
    nanos: 615000000
  end_time:
    secs: 3974
    nanos: 295000000
  text: For example, in the Orthodox Slajebnik, uh, it contains a section dealing with Eucharistic miracles and it says...
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 3974
    nanos: 295000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4002
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  text: '"If after the consecration of the bread or the wine, a miracle should appear, namely that the appearance of the bread would become that of flesh, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this appearance does not change shortly, meaning if the appearance of bread or wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest commune, for these are not the body and blood of Christ, but simply a miracle from God manifested as a result of disbelief or other cause.'
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4002
    nanos: 735000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4013
    nanos: 629000000
  text: If shortly that which had appeared as flesh should a- again appear to be bread, or in the chalice that which had appeared to be blood should once again appear as wine-""...
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4013
    nanos: 629000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4019
    nanos: 229000000
  text: let him commune with these and so complete the service, for they are the true body and blood of Christ."
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4019
    nanos: 810000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4021
    nanos: 810000000
  text: And Aquinas would agree with the last point.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4021
    nanos: 810000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 409000000
  text: If the appearances revert to those of bread and wine, it was a vision and the real presence was there the whole time.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4028
    nanos: 409000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4031
    nanos: 829000000
  text: What they disagree about is if the change endures.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4031
    nanos: 829000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4039
    nanos: 449000000
  text: Aquinas says that the changed elements do have the real presence on the grounds that the change is made to indicate the real presence.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4039
    nanos: 449000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4047
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  text: But the Slujevnik, uh, says that they no longer have the real presence, presumably on the grounds that they no longer appear to be bread and wine.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4047
    nanos: 990000000
  end_time:
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  text: However, so far as I'm aware, the church has not made a determination on this matter, so you can make up your own mind.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4054
    nanos: 669000000
  end_time:
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    nanos: 490000000
  text: So Jimmy, what's your bottom line on Eucharistic miracles?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4058
    nanos: 509000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4061
    nanos: 389000000
  text: Eucharistic miracles are fascinating to study.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4061
    nanos: 389000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4092
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  text: Uh, the five cases we've examined today are particularly fascinating because of the scientific investigations that have been done of them, and the fact that the, uh, AB blood type of two of them, the fact that all five involve hard-to-obtain heart muscle, and the fact that four of them seem to indicate a distressed heart present challenges to the idea that these five could have been products of hoaxes, giving us reason to think that they could be genuine miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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    nanos: 569000000
  text: Nice.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4094
    nanos: 569000000
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    secs: 4098
    nanos: 169000000
  text: So Jimmy, what further resources can we offer to the listeners and the viewer?
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- start_time:
    secs: 4098
    nanos: 169000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4106
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  text: 'We''ll have a link to, uh, Dr. Franco Serafini''s book, A Cardiologist Examines Jesus: The Stunning Science Behind Eucharistic Miracles.'
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4106
    nanos: 929000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4111
    nanos: 769000000
  text: We'll also have a link to Fatima in Sister Lucia's Own Words.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4111
    nanos: 769000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4119
    nanos: 989000000
  text: Uh, also articles on Eucharistic miracles and, uh, how the church investigates Eucharistic miracles.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4119
    nanos: 989000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4130
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  text: We'll have information from St. Thomas Aquinas on Eucharistic miracles, including from the Summa Theologiae, as well as that quote from the Slujevnik.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4130
    nanos: 69000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4138
    nanos: 689000000
  text: Also, information on ceratium archestins, uh, the vi- the, uh, uh, bacterium that can make wheat look red.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4138
    nanos: 689000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4146
    nanos: 69000000
  text: Also, information on world population by blood type, and Paul VI's Credo of the People of God.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4146
    nanos: 69000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4147
    nanos: 169000000
  text: Very nice.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4147
    nanos: 169000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4150
    nanos: 129000000
  text: So Jimmy, what do we have for mysterious headlines this week?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4150
    nanos: 129000000
  end_time:
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  text: Well, uh, we have a things-from-space theme, and so one of the things that has come from space was the 1908 Tunguska event, which we talked about previously, and it happened on June 30th.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4167
    nanos: 789000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4180
    nanos: 789000000
  text: So now June 30th has been named International Asteroid Day as a way of promoting awareness of the need for planetary defense against asteroids and comets and other things like that.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4180
    nanos: 789000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4190
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  text: So, uh, check out the link and, uh, get, uh, get, get up to speed on, uh, on the need for planetary defense.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4190
    nanos: 669000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4198
    nanos: 509000000
  text: Also, the US Congress recently had, um, UFO hearings, and we're not the only ones.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4198
    nanos: 509000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4206
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  text: The Brazilian Senate has also now held UFO hearings about what their, uh, people have been able to figure out about UFOs.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4206
    nanos: 349000000
  end_time:
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  text: So, you can check out that article as well and learn what's been happening down there.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4211
    nanos: 49000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4217
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  text: And it's never too early to start planning for your next International Asteroid Day next year, so get your banners and paint 'em.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4217
    nanos: 469000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4217
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  text: Yeah.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4217
    nanos: 489000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4219
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  text: all the things.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4220
    nanos: 509000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4223
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  text: So, uh, w- we would love to hear from you.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4223
    nanos: 369000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4226
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  text: What are your theories about Eucharistic miracles?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4226
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  end_time:
    secs: 4253
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  text: You can let us know by visiting sqpn.com or the Jimmy Akins Mysterious World Facebook page, sending an email to mysterious@sqpn.com, sending a tweet to @MYS_World, or you can join the StarQuest Discord community at sqpn.com/discord, or call our Mysterious Feedback Line at 619-738-4515.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
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  text: That's 619-738-4515.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4257
    nanos: 789000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4265
    nanos: 469000000
  text: And I wanna thank, uh, the folks from Oasis Studio Seven for all the video and animation work they do here on Mysterious World.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4265
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  end_time:
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  text: Uh, if you have any, uh, video editing needs, video animation needs, be sure to check them out.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4271
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  end_time:
    secs: 4278
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  text: And you can check out their work by going to my YouTube channel at youtube.com/jimmyakin.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4278
    nanos: 509000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4284
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  text: We've been getting a lot of positive feedback about the, uh, added value that the video work they do brings to the program.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4284
    nanos: 609000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4288
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  text: And while you're at YouTube, be sure and subscribe to my channel.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4288
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  end_time:
    secs: 4301
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  text: I'm trying to grow it, and so I'd really appreciate it if you like, comment, and subscribe, and hit the bell notification so that you always get a new video, uh, notification whenever I have a video out, whether it's Mysterious World or something else.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4301
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  end_time:
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  text: Excellent.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4302
    nanos: 869000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4305
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  text: So Jimmy, what are we gonna be talking about next time?
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4306
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  end_time:
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  text: Next week, we're going to be talking about the paranormal phenomenon of shadow people.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4311
    nanos: 429000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4319
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  text: Uh, people have been reporting seeing dim, shadowy figures, sometimes out of the corner of their eye, sometimes full-on.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4319
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  end_time:
    secs: 4326
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  text: Uh, so we'll be looking at reports of shadow people, what may be responsible for them, and why they appear.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
    secs: 4326
    nanos: 409000000
  end_time:
    secs: 4327
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  text: Excellent.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4327
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  end_time:
    secs: 4342
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  text: Folks, be sure to follow Jimmy Akins Mysterious World in Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, tune in in your favorite podcast app, or at the YouTube- at youtube.com/jimmyakin, where you should always hit the bell to get notifications.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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  text: You'll find links to Jimmy's resources from our discussion and links to those mysterious headlines on our show notes at mysterious.fm/220.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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  text: And remember, to help us continue to produce the podcast, please visit sqpn.com/give.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4359
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  end_time:
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  text: Jimmy Akins Mysterious World is also brought to you by Fiorvento Law PLLC, now assisting clients with expungements and set-asides of Michigan convictions.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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  text: To learn more, call 231-202-3321, or go to fiorventolaw.com, F-I-O-R-V-E-N-T-O law.com.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Jimmy Akins Mysterious World is also brought to you by delivercontacts.com, offering contact lenses at low prices with free delivery.
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  text: Visit delivercontacts.com.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
    secs: 4392
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  end_time:
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  text: Until next time, Jimmy Akin, thank you for explaining with us our mysterious world.
  speaker: speaker_0
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  text: Thanks, Dom.
  speaker: speaker_1
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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  text: And once again, I'm Dom Bettinelli.
  speaker: speaker_0
- start_time:
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  end_time:
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  text: Thank you for listening to Jimmy Akins Mysterious World on StarQuest.
  speaker: speaker_0
