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您正在收听吉米·阿金的神秘世界第220集， 我们从信仰和理性的双重视角探讨神秘现象。 You're listening to Episode 220 of Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World, where we look at mysteries from the twin perspectives of faith and reason.
本集我们将讨论圣餐神迹。 In this episode, we're talking about Eucharistic miracles.
我是多姆·贝蒂内利，今天和我一起的是吉米·阿金。 I'm Dom Bettinelli, and joining me today is Jimmy Akin.
嗨，吉米。 Hey, Jimmy.
你好，多姆。 Howdy, Dom.
几个世纪以来，人们报告目睹了与圣餐有关的神迹，耶稣宣称圣餐是他的身体和血。 For centuries, people have reported witnessing miracles involving the Holy Eucharist, which Jesus declared to be his body and blood.
有时，人们报告圣餐似乎变成了肉和血。 Sometimes, they report the Eucharist appearing to turn into flesh and blood.
这些报告的真相是什么？ What's the truth about these reports?
我们应该如何看待它们？它们是真正的神迹吗？ What should we make of them, and do they represent genuine miracles?
这正是我们在本集吉米·阿金的神秘世界中要讨论的内容。 That's what we'll be talking about on this episode of Jimmy Akin's Mysterious World.
那么，吉米，首先，这是一集由赞助人请求的节目，对吧？ So, Jimmy, to begin, this is a patron-requested episode, right?
是的。 Yes.
我们有一位非常慷慨的赞助人，名叫蒂姆·范·梅古姆， 他想听关于圣餐神迹的内容，所以今天我们就来谈这个。 We had a, uh, very generous patron named Tim Van Megum who, uh, wanted to hear about Eucharistic miracles, and so that's what we're talking about today.
谢谢你，蒂姆。 Thank you, Tim.
那么，你想怎么开始今天的神秘话题？ So, how do you wanna begin today's mystery?
先谈谈什么是圣餐和圣餐神迹。 By talking about what the Eucharist and Eucharistic miracles are.
对公教会和许多其他基督教团体的人来说，圣餐这个词很熟悉，但在某些团体中则不然。 For people in the Catholic community, and many other Christian communities, the word Eucharist will be familiar, but in some communities, it won't be.
作为一个新教徒长大，我从没听过这个词，也不知道它是什么意思，但其实挺容易解释的。 Uh, growing up as a Protestant, I never heard the term, and I wouldn't have known what it meant, but it's fairly easy to explain.
它来自希腊语 eucharistia，意思是感恩。 It comes from the Greek word eucharistia, which means thanksgiving.
福音书表明，在最后的晚餐上，耶稣在祝谢饼和酒后宣称它们是 他的身体和血，因此耶稣的感恩祷告最终成为整个礼仪的名称。 Uh, the Gospels indicate that, at the Last Supper, Jesus gave thanks over the bread and wine before declaring them to be his body and blood, and so the thanksgiving that Jesus gave over them eventually became the name for the whole rite.
耶稣的感恩祷告，也就是 eucharistia，给了我们主的晚餐的名称——圣餐。 Uh, Jesus' thanksgiving, or eucharistia, thus gave us the name Eucharist for the Lord's Supper.
圣餐既可以指整个庆典，也可以专指被祝圣的饼和酒。 The Eucharist can refer either to the celebration as a whole, or it can refer specifically to the consecrated elements.
那什么是圣餐神迹呢？ And then what's a Eucharistic miracle?
基本上，圣餐神迹是指与圣餐有关的任何神迹，这里首先要提到最重要 的，就是基督在圣餐里的临在，因为他曾说饼和酒是他的身体和血。 Basically, a Eucharistic miracle is any miracle that occurs in connection with the Eucharist, and here we need to mention the big one first, the presence of Christ in the Eucharist, because he said that the elements are his body and blood.
「这是我的身体。 "This is my body.
这是我的血。」关于最后的晚餐和新约其他经文都强调了这 一点，历史上绝大多数基督徒都明白耶稣说的是真实的。 This is my blood." Uh, the passages on the Last Supper and other passages in the New Testament stress this fact, and the vast majority of Christians throughout world history have understood that Jesus meant what he said.
这些饼和酒不再只是普通的饼和酒，就像祝圣之前那样。 Uh, the elements aren't simply bread and wine anymore, like they were before the consecration.
在祝圣时，它们变成了他的身体和血，正如他说的那样。 At the consecration, they become his body and blood, just like he said.
这种信仰不仅为公教徒所共有，也为东正教、东方正教、亚述东方教 会以及新教中的许多团体所接受，包括路德宗、圣公会和卫理公会。 This belief is shared not only by Catholics, but also by Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, the Assyrian Church of the East, and large groups in the Protestant community, including Lutherans, Anglicans, and Methodists.
这些教会合起来代表了当今世界上绝大多数基督徒，实际上只有新教中 相对少数的团体拒绝这一点，认为祝圣的饼和酒只是基督身体的象征。 Together, these bodies represent a large majority of Christians in the world today, and it's actually only a comparatively small number of groups in the Protestant community that reject this and hold that the consecrated elements are only symbols of Christ's body.
无论是历史上还是今天，绝大多数基督徒都教导基督在圣餐中的真实临在。 Uh, both historically and today, a large majority of Christians teach the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
我们说的是多少基督徒呢？ Uh, how many Christians are we talking about?
有多大的多数呢？ How, how large of a majority?
我没有做过精确计算，但仅公教徒就占世界基督徒的多数，超过50%。 I haven't done the exact math, but Catholics alone are a majority of Christians in the world, more than 50%.
再加上各种东方基督教会，大约达到75%。 Uh, add to them the various Eastern Christian churches, and you're up to around 75%.
再加上相信真实临在的新教团体，可能达到85%左右，所以今天世界上 大约85%，甚至更多的基督徒属于教导基督在圣餐中真实临在的教会。 With the Protestant communities that believe in the real presence, you're probably up to around 85%, so something like 85, maybe a little more, percent of the Christians in the world today belong to churches that teach the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist.
只有在过去500年里，新教的某些部分才出现了大量否 认真实临在的教会成员，甚至今天，这仍然是相当少数。 It's only been in the last 500 years in certain segments of the Protestant community that there's been a significant number of Christians belonging to communions that denied the real presence, and, uh, even today, that's quite a small minority of them.
所有教导真实临在的团体都以相同方式理解吗？ Do all the groups that teach the real presence understand it the same way?
不。 No.
他们对基督如何真实临在圣餐有不同的理解，但都同意在礼仪中 ，基督确实真实地临在于饼和酒中，所以它们不再只是饼和酒。 There are differences of understanding among them on exactly how Christ is really present in the Eucharist, but they agree that, in the service, Christ really and truly does become present in the elements, so they're not just bread and wine.
这是凭神的能力和应许发生的，所以无论你如何理解，真实临在 都是一个神迹，这使它客观上成为第一个也是最大的圣餐神迹。 And this is something that happens by God's power and promise, so however you understand it, the real presence would be a miracle, and that makes it objectively the first and greatest Eucharistic miracle.
那为什么人们在说圣餐神迹时，不会想到每一次圣餐礼呢？ Then why don't people think of every single Eucharist when they use the term Eucharistic miracle?
因为这不是一个显而易见的神迹。 Because it's not an obvious miracle.
这里有…… There are...
祝圣时饼和酒没有明显的变化。 There's no visible change in the elements at the consecration.
这是一种隐藏的神迹，我们知道是神所为，因为耶稣说过，但对我们的感官来说并不明显。 It's a kind of hidden miracle, something we know God has done because Jesus said so, but not something that's obvious to our senses.
我们通常用神迹这个词来指那些感官明显能察觉的事物。 Um, we normally use the word miracle to refer to things that are obvious to the senses.
事实上，拉丁词 miraculum 意为奇观或令人惊奇 的事物，通常与神明显、公开的作为相关，而非隐藏的作为。 In fact, the Latin word miraculum means wonder or marvel, something that causes wonder or astonishment, and that tends to be associated with overt, obvious acts of God rather than God's hidden acts.
例如，如果有人归向神，那是神隐藏的恩典在他心里 的作为，从客观上讲，每一次归信都是一个神迹。 Uh, for example, if someone is converted to God, then that's accomplished by the action of God's hidden grace in his heart, and in an objective sense, every conversion is a miracle.
但归信经常发生，神的作为对感官并不明显，所以我们不会自动把归信看作神迹。 But conversions happen regularly, and the action of God is not obvious to the senses, so we don't automatically think of conversions as miracles.
相反，当我们想到神迹时，往往想到罕见的、非凡的事件，神以更明显 的方式行动，比如人们瞬间治愈致命疾病，盲人突然恢复视力，聋人恢 复听力，或圣人悬浮于空中。同样，圣餐神迹这个词通常用来指超出圣 餐礼正常情况的非凡事件，神的作为更明显，能引起惊奇和敬畏。 Instead, when we think of miracles, we tend to think of rare, extraordinary happenings where God acts in a more obvious way, like when people are instantly healed of a fatal disease or when the blind suddenly get their sight back or the deaf their hearing or when a saint levitates off the ground.In the same way, the term Eucharistic miracle tends to be used for extraordinary events that go beyond what normally happens in the Eucharist, events where God's action is more obvious and can cause wonder and amazement.
这些事件中发生了什么？ What happens in these incidents?
神的作为在圣餐神迹中如何显现？ How does God's action manifest in Eucharistic miracles?
没有唯一的方式。 There isn't just a single way.
大多数人今天想到的圣餐神迹，可能是祝圣的饼和酒出现可见 变化，比如圣饼呈现肉的样子，圣杯中的酒呈现血的样子。 Uh, probably the kind of Eucharistic miracles that most people think of today are the ones where there's a visible transformation in the consecrated elements, like the host taking on the appearance of flesh, or the chalice taking on the appearance of blood, um, the contents of the chalice.
这也是我们本集主要关注的圣餐神迹类型。 This is the kind of Eucharistic miracle that we will primarily focus on in this episode.
不过，历史上还有其他与圣餐有关的神迹被报告过。 Uh, but there have been other kinds of miracles reported in connection with the Eucharist in history.
还有哪些其他类型的圣餐神迹呢？ What are some examples of other kinds of Eucharistic miracles?
有些确实涉及饼和酒的可见变化，但并不是说圣饼看起来像肉，圣杯里的内容看起来像血。 Well, some do involve a visible transformation of the elements, but not so that the host looks like f- flesh and the contents of the chalice look like blood.
另一种圣餐神迹是圣饼似乎流血。 Another kind of Eucharistic miracle involves a host that appears to bleed.
圣饼仍然看起来像一块饼，但似乎流血，有时变红，有时有血滴从上 面流下，有时是在有人试图亵渎圣饼之后发生，有时则是自发出现。 So the host continues to look like a host, a piece of bread, but it appears to bleed, uh, sometimes becoming red, sometimes with drops of blood flowing from it, uh, sometimes after someone has attempted to desecrate the host, and sometimes it just happens on its own.
还有一种涉及饼和酒外观变化的圣餐神迹是，它们不再看起来 像饼和酒，而是显现出基督圣婴，也就是耶稣小时候的样子。 Another kind of Eucharistic miracle that has been reported that involves a visible change of the elements is where they cease to look like bread and wine, and in their place people will see the Christ child, Jesus himself as a small child.
那在这些情况下会发生什么？ What happens in those cases?
基督圣婴会一直显现吗，还是会发生别的事情？ Does the Christ child just continue to appear or does something else happen?
通常，基督圣婴的显现只持续很短时间，之后饼和酒又恢复成普通的样子。 Typically, the Christ child's appearance only lasts a short time, and afterwards the elements revert to the normal appearances of bread and wine.
其他涉及外观变化的圣餐神迹有时也会这样。 That also sometimes happens with other Eucharis- other Eucharistic miracles that involve a change of appearance.
当圣饼和圣杯里的内容变成肉和血的样子时，有时会恢复成饼 和酒的样子，有时则会保持肉和血的样子甚至持续几个世纪。 Uh, when the host and the contents of the chalice change to look like flesh and blood, they sometimes go back to looking like bread and wine, and sometimes they remain looking like flesh and blood even for centuries.
同样，如果圣饼似乎流血，它可能会恢复成普通饼的样子，也可能不会。 Uh, similarly, if a host appears to bleed, it may go back to looking like ordinary bread or it may not.
所有圣餐神迹都涉及饼和酒的可见变化吗？ Do all Eucharistic miracles involve a visible transformation of the elements?
不，有些涉及其他方面，比如谁来主持圣餐，圣餐元素的保存，以及圣餐元素的表现。 No, some involve other things such as, um, who administers the elements, the survival of the elements, and the behavior of the elements.
那我们来逐一看看这些情况。 Then let's look at each of these.
有哪些关于谁主持圣餐的圣餐神迹被报告过？ What Eucharistic miracles have been reported in connection with who administered the elements?
通常，在弥撒中，或者在东方基督教圈子里常称为圣餐 礼，圣餐是由普通人，通常是祭司，分发给信徒的。 Ordinarily, in the Mass, or the Divine Liturgy as it's often called in Eastern Christian circles, communion is given to the faithful by a normal human being, usually a priest.
不过，也有报告说圣餐是由天使以更非凡的方式分发的。 However, there are reports of communion being given in a more extraordinary form by an angel.
例如，法蒂玛的三位瞻仰者露西亚、雅辛塔和弗朗西斯科就报告过这种情况。 For example, this was reported by the three Fatima seers, uh, Lucia, Jacinta, and Francisco.
我们在第40集谈过法蒂玛圣母显现，在第64和65集专门谈过法蒂玛的第三个秘密。 We talked about the Fatima apparitions of the Virgin Mary in episode 40, and we specifically talked about the third secret of Fatima in episode 64 and 65.
这些圣母显现发生在1917年的葡萄牙，但这三个孩子之前还报告过其他超自然经历。 Uh, these apparitions of the Virgin Mary took place in Portugal in 1917, but the three children reported earlier supernatural experiences that had occurred beforehand.
在她关于这些事件的第二部回忆录中，露西亚修女报告说，1916年，也就 是圣母显现的前一年，葡萄牙的守护天使显现给三个孩子，教他们一首祷告。 In her second memoir of the events, Sister Lucia reported that in 1916, the year before the Marian apparitions, the Guardian Angel of Portugal appeared to the three children and taught them a prayer.
同年晚些时候，三个孩子一起念这祷告，露西亚修女报告说…… Then, later the same year, the three children were saying the prayer together, and Sister Lucia reports...
「我不知道我们重复了多少次这祷告，忽然一道奇异的光照在我们身上。 "I don't know how many times we had repeated this prayer when an extraordinary light shone upon us.
我们跳起来看发生了什么，看到天使。 We sprang up to see what was happening and beheld the angel.
他左手拿着一个圣杯，圣饼悬浮在杯上方，有几滴血滴落入圣杯中。 He was holding a chalice in his left hand with the host suspended above it, from which some drops of blood fell into the chalice.
天使让圣杯悬浮在空中，跪在我们旁边。」 Leaving the chalice suspended in the air, the angel knelt down beside us."
天使随后与他们三人一起念了三遍新的祷告，然后…… The angel then said a new prayer with them three times, and then...
「他站起来，手中拿着圣杯和圣饼。 "Rising, he took the chalice and the host in his hands.
他把圣饼给了我，把圣杯中的血分给雅辛塔和弗朗西斯科，同时说：‘拿 去喝吧，这是耶稣基督的身体和血，因忘恩负义的人们而受极大侮辱。 He gave the sacred host to me and shared the blood from the chalice between Jacinta and Francisco, saying as he did so, 'Take and drink the body and blood of Jesus Christ, horribly outraged by ungrateful men.
为他们的罪行赎罪，安慰你的神。’他再次俯伏在地 ，与我们一起重复了三遍同样的祷告，然后消失了。 Make reparation for their crimes and console your God.' Once again, he prostrated on the ground and repeated with us three times more the same prayer and then disappeared.
我们长时间保持这个姿势，一遍又一遍地重复这些话。 We remained a long time in this position, repeating the same words over and over again.
最后我们站起来时，发现天已经黑了，是时候回家了。」 When at last we stood up, we noticed that it was already dark and therefore time to return home."
所以在这次遭遇中，天使给了三个孩子圣餐，尽管圣餐通常是由 人类执事，通常是祭司分发的，而且这并不是唯一的类似报告。 So in this encounter, the angel gave Holy Communion to the three children despite the fact that communion is normally given by a human minister, typically a priest, and this is not the only report like this.
例如，圣方济各·科瓦尔斯卡报告说她不止一次从天使那里领受圣餐。 Uh, for example, Saint Faustina Kowalska reported receiving Holy Communion from an angel more than once.
人们可以讨论这类经历是单纯的异象还是实际发生的，但 圣人们确实报告过从天使而非人类执事那里领受圣餐。 Um, one can discuss whether experiences like this were simply visions or whether they happened physically, but saints have reported receiving the Eucharist from an angel rather than a human minister.
你说过有些圣餐神迹涉及圣餐元素的保存。 You said that some Eucharistic miracles involve the survival of the Eucharistic elements.
你具体指的是什么？ What were you thinking about here?
主要有两种情况。 Primarily two situations.
第一种是祝圣的饼和酒随着时间的保存。 Uh, first there's the survival of the consecrated elements over time.
随着时间推移，自然物质会腐烂、变质，不再保持原样。 With time, you'd expect natural elements to corrupt, decay and cease looking like themselves.
你知道，面包会发霉、分解，酒会蒸发。 You know, bread gets moldy and disintegrates, and wine evaporates.
如果圣餐元素只是普通的饼和酒，你也会预期它们会发生这些变化。 Uh, if the Eucharistic elements were nothing more than normal bread and wine, you'd expect that to happen to them too.
但有报告说这种情况没有发生。特别是，有些圣饼据说即使经过几个世纪也没有腐坏。 But there are cases where this is reported not to happen.Uh, "In particular, there are cases where hosts are reported not to have been corrupted even after a period of centuries.
第二种神迹是圣餐元素在通常会毁坏它们的情况下依然保存下来。 Uh, a second kind of miracle in this class involves the survival of the elements not through time, but through situations that would ordinarily destroy them.
例如，烧一块面包，无论是发酵的还是无酵的，通常都会变成灰烬。 For example, if you burned a piece of bread, whether leavened or unleavened, it would be expected to be reduced to ashes.
但有报告说祝圣的圣饼在火灾和其他本应毁坏它的情 况下依然保存下来，因此这些也被视为圣餐神迹。 But there are reports of the consecrated host surviving fires and other situations that would be expected to destroy it, and so these also have been considered Eucharistic miracles."
你还提到过涉及圣餐元素表现的圣餐神迹。 "You also mentioned Eucharistic miracles in which the behavior of the elements was involved.
你具体指的是什么？ What were you thinking about here?"
主要是两件事。 "Uh, principally, I was thinking about two things.
首先，圣餐神迹可能涉及祝圣元素以可见的方式表现出异常行为。 First, uh, Eucharistic miracles may involve unusual behavior of the consecrated elements in a visible way.
例如，普通的饼和酒不会自发悬浮在它们所在的表面上，但历史上有多 次报告说祝圣的圣饼或圣杯正是这样，有时会在空中停留很长时间。 Uh, for example, normal bread and wine don't spontaneously levitate above the surfaces they're located on, but there are multiple reports in history of the consecrated host or the chalice doing exactly that, uh, sometimes remaining in the air for an extended period.
其次，圣餐元素可能以另一种特殊方式表现。 And second, uh, the Eucharistic elements may behave in another exceptional way.
有报告说有人能够仅靠圣餐维持生命，持续很长时间，有时甚至几十年。 There are reports of individuals being able to subsist on nothing but the Eucharist for extended periods of time, sometimes lasting decades.
这代表了非凡的禁食期，即使每天领受圣餐，也无 法提供足够的热量让人没有其他食物就活几十年。 Um, these would represent extraordinary fasting periods, and even receiving the Eucharist daily would not provide enough calories to allow a person to survive for decades without other food."
如果这是对一些不同类型圣餐神迹的概述，圣餐神迹只在公教基督徒中报告吗？ "If that's a survey of some of the different types of Eucharistic miracles that have been reported, are Eucharistic miracles reported only among Catholic Christians?"
不，报告的范围更广。 "No, they're reported more broadly than that.
例如，东正教会也有报告。 Uh, for example, they've been reported in Eastern Orthodox Churches.
事实上，正如我们将在本集末尾听到的，斯拉耶布尼克中甚至 有一节，斯拉耶布尼克是东正教类似罗马弥撒经书的礼仪书， 里面包含了如果圣餐神迹在礼拜中发生时该如何处理的指示。 In fact, as we'll hear towards the end of the episode, there's even a section in the Slajebnik, which is a sort of Orthodox equivalent of the Roman Missal and contains instructions for the Eucharistic liturgy, that deals with what to do if a Eucharistic miracle occurs during the service.
我还知道圣公会有一则报告。 I also know of a report in the Anglican Church.
事实上，这个报告来自阿肯色州罗杰斯的基督圣体圣公会教堂，就在我长大的地方附近。 In fact, it came from, uh, Corpus Christi Anglican Church in Rogers, Arkansas, right near where I grew up.
2017年，他们在那里举行了一场教区大会弥撒，报告了一起圣餐神迹。 In 2017, they were holding a synodal mass there, and one Eucharistic miracle was reported.
据杰森·赖斯神父说，在祝圣词刚念完后，圣杯正上方出现了一个天上的圣饼形象。 According to Reverend Father Jason Rice, an image of a heavenly host appeared directly over the chalice immediately after the words of consecration.
事实上，有这件事发生的照片，照片中确实看起来圣杯上方有一 个发光的圣饼，虽然这张图像是否有自然解释是另一个话题。 In fact, there's a photograph of this occurring, and it does look like there is a glowing host above the chalice, though whether this image has a natural explanation is a separate subject.
不过重点是，圣餐神迹在基督教其他团体中也有报告。 However, the point is that Eucharistic miracles are reported in other parts of the Christian community."
过去两千年里，有许多关于圣餐神迹的报告。 "Over the last 2,000 years, there have been numerous reports of Eucharistic miracles occurring.
我们应该相信所有这些报告都是真正的神迹吗？ Should we believe all of the reports involved genuine miracles?"
不。 "No.
两千年是很长的时间，如今世界上有二十亿基督徒，他们大多数属于教导真实临在的教会。 2,000 years is a long time, and today, there are two billion Christians in the world, most of whom belong to churches that teach the real presence.
在这么长时间和这么多人中，肯定会有许多报告并非真正的神迹。 In all that time, with all those people, there are bound to be numerous reports that do not involve genuine miracles.
毫无疑问，许多有自然的解释。 Uh, undoubtedly, many have natural explanations.
它们可能基于谣言、传说、骗局、误解、误认和精神疾病。 They may be based on rumors, legends, hoaxes, misperceptions, misidentifications, and mental illness.
例如，我一看到阿肯色州罗杰斯事件的照片，立刻想到一个可能的自然解释。 For example, a possible natural explanation for the Rogers, Arkansas case immediately occurred to me upon looking at the photograph of the event.
如果我调查这起事件，我会问的一个问题是，这个图像是否可能是普通光 线从圣杯杯碗反射上来，由于圣杯和天花板上的灯具意外对齐而产生的。 In this particular case, one of the questions I would ask if I was investigating the case is whether the image could have been produced by ordinary light reflecting up from the bowl of the chalice due to an accidental alignment between the chalice and one of the overhead ceiling lamps.
这种误解在任何团体中都有可能发生，因此公教会不会自动认可每一则圣餐神迹的报告。 Um, that kind of misperception can happen in any community, and as a result, the Catholic Church doesn't automatically sign off on every report of a Eucharistic miracle."
教会有调查圣餐神迹的方法吗？ "Does the church have a way of investigating Eucharistic miracles?"
有的，通常由当地主教负责监督他教区内超自然现象的调查。 "Yes, uh, typically it's the responsibility of the local bishop to oversee the investigation of reports of the supernatural in his diocese.
这也适用于私人启示，正如我们在第84集中讨论的。 That applies to private revelations, as we discussed in episode 84.
它也涉及恶魔附身的报告，嗯，它…… It reports to demonic possessions, uh, it in...
他也调查恶魔附身的报告，正如我们在第188集中讨论的，神迹报告也是如此。 uh, he also investigates reports of demonic possessions, as we discussed in episode 188, and the same thing happens with reports of miracles.
所以，当地主教是教区的首席超自然调查员，但他通常不会亲自调查。 So, the local bishop is kind of the chief supernatural investigator of his diocese, only he typically doesn't do the investigations himself.
相反，在每个案例中，他通常会委派一组专家来调查情况。 Instead, in each of these cases, he usually appo- appoints a group of experts to look into the situation.
根据案件性质，这些专家可能包括医生、科学家、神学家和其他专家，且总有神父参与。 Depending on the nature of the case, these experts can include medical doctors, scientists, theologians, other experts, and there are always priests involved.
就像非宗教的超自然调查一样，专家们应先寻找 并排除报告的自然解释，才得出超自然的结论。 And, like in non-religious investigations of the paranormal, the experts are supposed to look for and eliminate natural explanations for the reports before concluding the cause is supernatural.
专家们提交报告后，主教会做出处理决定。 Once the experts have given him their reports, the bishop then makes a judgment about what to do.
如果是恶魔附身，他会授权驱魔，但出于隐私原因不会公开宣布。 In the case of a demonic possession, he would authorize an exorcism, but there wouldn't be a public announcement of this fact for privacy reasons.
但在私人启示和神迹的情况下，主教可能会公开宣布他的结论，如今 主教通常会事先将结论提交给罗马信理部审批，然后再发布公告。 But in the case of private revelations and miracles, there may well be a public announcement of the bishop's conclusions, and these days, the bishop typically shares his conclusions with the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith in Rome ahead of time to get their approval before making an announcement."
接下来我们将如何看待圣餐神迹？ How will we be looking at Eucharistic miracles going forward today?
我们主要依靠弗兰科·塞拉菲尼的书《一位心脏病专家审视耶稣》。 We'll principally be relying on a book titled A Cardiologist Examines Jesus by Franco Serafini.
顾名思义，他是一位心脏病专家，住在意大利博洛尼亚。 As the book's title indicates, he's a cardiologist and he lives in Bologna, Italy.
他的书回顾了多起曾被科学研究的圣餐神迹，因此是一个特别有用的资料。 Uh, his book is a review of multiple Eucharistic miracles that have been the subject of scientific studies, so it's a particularly useful resource.
我们将简要回顾他书中涉及的五个主要案例，并解释发生了什么。 What we'll do is briefly review the five major cases he covers and explain what happened.
然后在理性与视角环节，我们将看看科学研究对 这些案例的发现，最后从信仰角度做一些总结。 Then in the reason and perspective segment, we'll look at what the scientific studies, uh, found about these cases, and finally, we'll have some closing remarks, uh, from the faith perspective.
那我们来看这五个案例。 Then let's take a look at the five cases.
第一个是什么？ What was the first one?
这是迄今为止最古老的案例，显然发生在意大利兰恰诺的公元700年代。 It's by far the oldest and it apparently took place in the 700s in Lanciano, Italy.
根据1631年写的一份文件…… According to a document written in 1631...
「在这座城市的圣兰恰诺修道院里，大约公元700年，住着一位信心不太坚定的修士， 他每天都怀疑祝圣的圣饼里是否真的有基督的身体，祝圣的酒里是否真的有基督的血。 "In this city, in the convent of Saint Lancianzo, where the monks of Saint Basil lived in about 700 AD, was a monk who, not very steadfast in his faith, lived day by day doubting if the true body of Christ was in the consecrated host, and likewise, if the true blood was in the wine.
不过，他从未被神的恩典和不断的祷告抛弃，持续向神祈求医治他心中的创伤。 Still, never abandoned by divine grace and constant prayer, he kept praying to God that He would heal this wound in his heart.
于是，有一天早晨，在他献祭的过程中，念出最神圣的祝圣词时，他比以 往任何时候都更陷入旧有的怀疑，突然看到饼变成了肉，酒变成了血。 Thus, one morning in the midst of his sacrifice, after uttering the most sacred words of consecration, while more than ever before caught up in his old mistake, he saw the bread turned into flesh and the wine turned into blood.
「看哪，我们最亲爱的基督的肉和血。」听到这话，焦急的人 们虔诚地急忙跑向祭坛，惊恐中泪流满面，开始呼求怜悯。」 'Behold the flesh and the blood of our most beloved Christ.' At these words, the anxious people hastily ran with devotion to the altar and, and terrified, not without overflowing tears, began shouting for mercy."
通常，这样的案例并不太有希望深入研究。 Now, normally, this would not be a very promising case to examine.
我们没有当时的文献记录，现有的主要资料是事件发生900年后写成的。 Um, we don't have contemporary documentation of it, and the key source we do have was written 900 years after the event.
但我们确实拥有报告事件的实物遗物，正如塞拉菲尼博士所说…… But what we do have are the physical relics of the reported event, and as Dr. Serafini states...
「经过几个世纪，毫无腐烂迹象，这本身就是一个神秘的事实，一件双重遗物被交 给我们，由肉质圆形组织组成，颜色暗棕带黄，直径约六厘米，边缘较厚，中间变 薄形成一个大空腔，还有五块体积不等、黄棕色的凝固血块，总重约16克。」 "After many centuries, without undergoing any process of decay, which is evidently in itself a mysterious fact, a double relic has been handed over to us made of a fleshly rounded tissue, dark brown and yellowish in color, about six centimeters in diameter, thicker on the edges and thinning out centrally into a large cavity in the middle, and five solid fragments of unequal volume, yellow-brown color, of clotted blood, weighing t- altogether 16 grams."
在1970和1980年代，负责保管遗物的方济各会决定允许用当时可用的科学技术对 其进行研究，虽然当时还没有发明DNA测序，但这些测试比历史上任何时候都要先进。 And in the 1970s and 1980s, the Franciscans who have custody of the relic decide to, decided to allow scientific studies of it to be done using, of course, the scientific techniques that were available at the time, which did not include DNA sequencing, as that hadn't been invented yet, but they were still better tests than at any prior point in history.
塞拉菲尼博士介绍的第二个报告神迹发生在阿根廷布宜诺斯艾利斯。 The second reported miracle Dr. Serafini covers occurred in Buenos Aires, Argentina.
那个案例发生了什么？ What happened in that case?
这实际上是一组发生在1990年代的五起神迹报告，其中三起发生在19 92年，一起在1994年，一起在1996年，全部发生在同一个堂区。 This case was actually a set of five reported miracles that occurred in the 1990s, three of them in 1992, one in 1994, and one in 1996, and all of them occurred in the same parish.
要理解这些神迹，以及我们后面要讲的其他案例，我们需要了解 教会如何处理祝圣的圣饼和因各种原因不能食用的圣饼碎片。 To understand them, as well as some of the ones we'll later cover, we need to know something about how the church handles consecrated hosts and pieces of hosts that are not edible, for one reason or another.
几个世纪以来，教会的理解是，只要饼和酒的外观还在，基督的真实临在就依然存在。 Going back centuries, it's been the church's understanding that the real presence of Christ remains as long as the appearances of bread and wine remain.
所以即使圣饼变得不可食用，比如掉落弄脏了，真实临在仍然存在。 So even if a host has become inedible, for example, because it's fallen and gotten dirty, the real presence is still there.
因此，当圣饼不能合理食用时，程序是溶解饼和酒的外观。 As a result, when a host can't be reasonably consumed, the procedure is to dissolve the appearances of bread and wine.
这通常是通过将它们溶解在水中完成的。 Uh, this is done by dissolving them in water.
一旦饼和酒的外观不复存在，真实临在也就离开了，水就会被倒入堂区的 圣水槽，这是一种特殊的水槽，通向堂区的祝圣土地，而不是下水道。 And then once the appearances of bread and wine are no longer there, and thus the real presence is, has left, the water is poured into the parish's sacrorium, which is a special kind of sink that leads down into the consecrated soil of the parish rather than into the sewer system.
关于布宜诺斯艾利斯的第一起事件，塞拉菲尼博士报告说…… So, for the first of the Buenos Aires incidents, Dr. Serafini reports...
「1992年5月1日星期五晚上，圣餐义务执事卡洛斯·多 明格斯注意到圣体龛前的祭布上有两块新月形的圣饼碎片。 "On the evening of Friday, May 1st, 1992, Carlos Dominguez, a lay minister of the Eucharist, noticed two crescent-shaped host fragments lying on the corporal in front of the tabernacle.
很可能它们是之前从圣餐盒里掉出来的。 Quite possibly, they could have fallen out of the ciborium earlier on.
他把这事告诉了堂区神父胡安·萨尔瓦多·卡拉巴洛神父，神父让他开始 之前讲过的溶解程序，因为他认为这些圣饼已经不新鲜且不可食用了。 He mentioned it to the parish priest, Father Juan Salvador Caraballo, who told him to begin the pro- dissolving procedure explained before, thinking they were no longer fresh and edible.
于是这两块圣饼碎片被浸泡在一个小陶瓷容器里的水中，随后容器被锁在圣体龛内。 The two host fragments were thus immersed in water in a small ceramic container that was then locked inside the tabernacle.
5月8日早晨，胡安神父第一次检查这个容器时感到非常惊讶。 On the morning of May 8th, Father Juan checked the container for the first time and was astonished.
他把所见告诉了同堂区的其他神父。 He spoke about what he saw with the other priests living in the same parish.
水中形成了三个血块，起初覆盖着白色绒毛，后来消失了。 Three blood clots had formed in the water, initially covered in a white fuzz that later disappeared.
容器壁上有血迹，好像是圣饼本身发生某种爆裂所致。」 There were blood streaks on the walls of the container, as if they had been produced by some sort of explosion of the hosts themselves."
两天后，在两场不同的弥撒中，又发生了两起新事件。 Two days later, at two different masses, two new events took place.
「盛放祝圣圣饼的托盘被血染红，不止一个托盘，而是两个 不同的托盘，一个是铜制的，一个是锡制的鱼形托盘。」 "The patent holding the consecrated host was stained with blood, not just one, but rather two distinct patents, a bronze one and a tin fish-shaped one."
然后是1994年…… Then in 1994...
「1994年7月24日星期天的儿童晨弥撒中，分发圣 餐的义务执事注意到圣餐盒内缘有一滴流动的血滴。」 "At the children's morning mass on Sunday, July 24th, 1994, the lay minister distributing the Eucharist noticed a running drop of blood on the inner rim of the ciborium."
最后是1996年…… And finally, in 1996...
「1996年8月18日星期天晚上7点弥撒圣餐分发结束时，一位信 徒非常尴尬地向主礼神父亚历杭德罗·普泽特反映。」她注意到在十字 架前的烛台底座里藏着一块圣饼，这个烛台至今仍在右侧教堂中殿。 "At the end of the distribution of Holy Communion at the 7:00 PM mass on Sunday, August 18th, 1996, one of the faithful turned to the priest celebrant, Father Alejandro Puzet, with great embarrassment."She had noticed a host hidden in the base of a candlestick in front of the crucifix, which is still to this day in the right-side nave.
亚历杭德罗神父查看后，捡起了这块显然被人以亵渎意图遗弃的圣饼。 Father Alejandro took a look and picked up the host that had been certainly abandoned by someone with desecrating intent.
他曾想自己吃掉它，但它太脏、布满灰尘了。 He thought of consuming it himself, but it was too dirty and dusty.
因此，他请77岁的圣餐义务执事艾玛·费尔南德斯将其浸入水中，并按惯例锁进圣体龛。 Therefore, he asked Emma Fernandez, a 77-year-old lay minister of the Eucharist, to immerse it in water and lock it in the tabernacle according to the usual procedure.
后来，费尔南德斯女士是唯一能接触圣体龛的平信徒，她确实在自己放进去的圆形 玻璃容器里看到奇怪的东西，并在8月26日八天后与普泽特神父讨论了她所见。 Later, Mrs. Fernandez, the only layperson who had access to the tabernacle, indeed saw something strange in the round glass container she had left in, in it, and discussed what she saw with Father Pezet eight days later on August 26th.
普泽特神父立即通知了仁爱华多·格雷厄姆神父，他也注意到圣饼 正在变成别的东西，一种红色的物质，接下来几周还会继续增长。 After immediately involving Father Eduardo Graham, Father Pezet also noticed that the host was transforming into something else, something red in color that was destined to grow in the following weeks.
溶解中的圣饼越来越难以辨认，水中却越来越浑浊，出现了 红色的云状物质和颜色更深、质地像凝固血块的胶状团块。 The dissolving host was less and less distinguishable, although the water was made more and more turbid by a red, cloud-like substance and darker jelly-like clumps whose texture resembled that of clotted blood.
这些疑似血块的表面还出现了颜色更深、类似霉菌的斑点。 Darker mold-like blooms were seen on the surface of these presumed blood clots.
1992年至1996年的所有材料都被收集并拍 照，布宜诺斯艾利斯总教区批准对它们进行调查。 All of the materials from 1992 to 1996 were collected and photographed, and the Archdiocese of Buenos Aires, uh, authorized an investigation of them.
塞拉菲尼博士记录的第三个神迹报告发生在墨西哥的蒂克斯特拉。 The third miracle report Dr. Serafini records took place in Tixtla, Mexico.
那里发生了什么？ What happened there?
2006年10月22日星期天，雷蒙多·雷纳·埃斯特班神父正在主持弥撒。 On Sunday, October 22nd, 2006, Father Raymundo Reina Esteban was celebrating mass.
他被称为雷伊托神父，意为“小雷”，这是个玩笑，因为他身高超过六英尺。 Uh, he was known as Father Rayito, which means Little Ray, and that was a joke because he was over six feet tall.
。 .
但是…… But...
两位修女正在协助分发圣餐。 Two nuns were helping with the distribution of the Eucharist for Holy Communion.
其中一位奥雷莉·马罗昆修女手持装满祝圣圣饼的圣餐 盒时，突然停下并在排队领受的信徒面前脸色苍白。 While holding a ciborium full of consecrated hosts, Sister Aurelie Maroquinn, one of the two, suddenly paused and turned pale in front of the faithful who were queuing up to receive.
几年后，当地报纸《第21日报》刊登了当天事件的 报道，列出了目击者的姓名并报道了他们的采访。 A few years later, the local p-paper, Diario 21, published an account of the events that took place on that day by giving the names of the eyewitnesses and reporting their interviews.
其中一位是那位修女奥雷莉暂停分发圣餐时站在她面前的女士。 One of them was the woman in front of whom Sister Aurelie had paused her distribution of Holy Communion.
据这位女士回忆，修女含泪回到祭坛，跪下后没有说话，就把圣餐盒给了雷伊托神父看。 According to this woman's recollection, the nun had returned to the altar with teary eyes and had shown the ciborium to Father Rayito after kneeling without uttering a word.
其中一块圣饼沾染了血迹。 One of the hosts was stained with blood.
它质地湿润且易碎，轻轻一碰就掉下一小块。 It had a moist e friable texture, so, so much so that a small fragment had come off it by gently touching it.
雷伊托神父和莱奥波尔多神父迅速交谈，随后雷伊托神父大声 宣布：「这是神迹！」并公开展示了沾有几滴鲜血的圣饼。 Father Rayito and Father Leopoldo quickly talked to one another until Father Rayito loudly spoke out, "This is a miracle!" and publicly showed the host that was stained by a few drops of fresh blood.
他用洪亮的声音开始唱《愿我基督万岁，愿我君王 万岁》，这是一首所有墨西哥人都熟悉的赞美诗。 With his booming voice, he began singing Que Viva Mi Cristo, Que Viva Mi Rey, or long live my Christ, long live my king, a hymn well-known to all Mexicans.
有人鼓掌，也有人哭泣。 There were people who applauded and people who wept.
事后，当地主教批准对该事件进行科学调查。 And afterwards, the local bishop authorized a scientific investigation of the event.
塞拉菲尼博士介绍的第四起事件发生在世界另一端。 The fourth incident Dr. Serafini covered takes us across the world.
这起事件发生了什么？ What happened in this case?
事件发生在波兰索科尔卡，位于该国东部，靠近白俄罗斯边境。 The incident took place in Sokolka, Poland, uh, which is on the east side of the country near the Belarusian border.
事件始于2008年10月12日，事情是这样的。 It began on October 12th, 2008, and here's what happened.
上午8点30分的弥撒由年轻神父菲利普·多德罗夫斯基主持。 The 8:30 morning mass was being celebrated by the young priest, Father Filip Dodrovski.
格热谢克·赫米列维奇神父协助分发圣餐。 He was being helped with the distribution of Holy Communion by Father Grzesiek Chmielewicz.
很可能是他当时不小心掉落了一块祝圣的圣饼。 Most likely, it was he who dropped a consecrated host by mistake at that time.
这起意外事件的经过既奇特又感人。 The series of events involved in the mishap was curious and moving.
目击者对事件细节描述得非常详细。 It was witnessed in great detail.
一位信徒跪在祭坛栏杆旁领受圣餐。 One of the faithful was kneeling at the altar rail to receive Holy Communion.
那位女士一言不发，触摸了格热谢克神父的腿，并用眼神示意祭坛的第一级台阶。 Without uttering a word, that lady touched Father Grzesiek's leg, and with a glance, showed him the first step of the altar.
神父捡起了那块圣饼。 The priest picked up the host.
圣饼很脏，他决定不吃，而是把它浸入祭坛上的银制洗手器皿中的水里。 It was dirty, and he decided not to consume it, but rather to immerse it in water in the vasculum, a silver container used for the cleansing of the hands that was already on the altar.
弥撒结束时，格热谢克神父把装有圣饼的洗手器皿放进了圣体龛。 At the end of mass, Father Grzesiek put the host containing vasculum inside the tabernacle.
当天，堂区神父斯坦尼斯劳斯·高兹亚科主教要么被告知了这 起意外，要么注意到了那个异常存放在圣体龛里的水容器。 On the same day, parish priest, Monsignor Stanislaus Gaudziako, was either informed of the mishap or otherwise simply took notice of the water container that had been unusually stored inside the tabernacle.
于是，他请负责管理蜡烛、圣器和教堂布置的朱莉娅·杜博夫斯基修女，把洗手器皿里 的水倒进一个更大的玻璃瓶，加入水后锁进了只有他们两人有钥匙的圣器室保险箱。 Thus, he asked Sister Julia Dubowski, the parish sacristan looking after candles, sacred vessels, and the overall church decor, to pour the contents of the vasculum into a larger glass vase, adding water to it and locking it in the sacristy safe, whose keys were only kept by the two of them.
次周星期天10月19日上午8点，朱莉娅修女打开保险箱，闻到了一股面包香味。 At 8:00 AM on the following Sunday, October 19th, Sister Julia opened the safe and smelled a bread fragrance.
她以为是圣饼完全溶解后散发的味道，但事实并非如此。 She thought it was from the complete dissolution of the host, but that wasn't the case.
圣饼的一部分尚未溶解，部分被一个坚实的红色凸起污 渍覆盖，形状类似一块一乘一又二分之一厘米的血块。 Part of the host had not yet dissolved and was partially covered by a solid red protruding stain resembling a one-by-one-and-a-half centimeter blood clot.
然而容器中的水依然清澈。 Yet the water in the container had remained clear.
朱莉娅修女立刻打电话给堂区神父斯坦尼斯劳斯和其他神父，他们迅速赶来。 Sister Julia immediately called the parish priest, Father Stanislaus, and the other priests, who rushed over.
他们都感到惊讶和震惊。 All of them were surprised and astonished.
当时他们决定对所发生的事情保持严格的沉默。 At the time, they decided to maintain a strict silence about what had happened.
不过，他们联系了教区，教区再次批准了调查。 However, they contacted the diocese, which, again, authorized an investigation.
这就引出了五个案例中最后一个也是最新的一个，发生在波兰，但在国家的另一边。 That brings us to the final and most recent of the five cases, which also took place in Poland, but on the other side of the nation.
那里发生了什么？ What happened there?
事件发生在一个叫莱格尼察的地方，位于该国西部，靠近 德国和捷克边境，始于2013年圣诞节，距今仅九年。 It occurred in a place called Legnica, which is on the west side of the country near the border w- with Germany and the Czech Republic, and it started on Christmas Day in 2013, just nine years ago.
在这个案例中—— In this case-
五年前在索科尔卡发生的同样事件再次出现。 The same event that happened in Sokolka five years earlier took place again.
一块祝圣的圣饼不小心掉到了地上，更准确地说，是掉在了圣所内的地毯上。 A consecrated host accidentally fell on the ground, more precisely on a carpet, within the sacred space of the sanctuary.
这块圣饼刚刚蘸过祝圣的圣酒，接触地面后变脏了。 It was a host that had just been dipped in the consecrated wine and became dirty upon touching the ground.
神父随后决定像在索科尔卡那样，按照我们已知的程序，把 圣饼放进一个装有自来水的金属圣杯容器中，让它溶解。 The priest then decided, like in Sokolka, to follow the procedure we already know, and he put the host in the container, a metal chalice, with simple tap water for it to dissolve.
圣杯随后被放在圣体龛中保存了几天。 The chalice was then kept in the tabernacle for a few days.
2014年1月5日，社区中最年长的另一位神父检查了圣器，发现一块新月形的圣 饼碎片，大小约为0.5乘1.5厘米，已从无酵饼的其余部分脱落，并开始变红。 On January 5th, 2014, another priest, the eldest in the community, checked the sacred vessel and noticed that a crescent-shaped portion of the host, about one-half c- by one and a half centimeters in size, had detached from the rest of the unleavened bread and was turning red.
教区网站上可以看到一些非常清晰的照片，展示了这一现象的不同阶段。 Some very clear photographs showing the different stages of the phenomenon can be seen on the parish website.
当时的莱格尼察主教斯特凡·齐齐获悉此事，并要求继续观察。 Monsignor Stefan Cyzy, the Bishop of Legnica at the time, was informed, and he requested that the observation be continued.
两周后，圣饼变色的部分仍漂浮在水面上，而其余部分已完全溶解。 After two weeks, the colored portion of the host was still present on the surface of the water, while the rest had completely dissolved.
此时，主教成立了一个由四位专家组成的委员会来监测事件。 At that stage, the bishop set up a committee of four experts to monitor the events.
这就是塞拉菲尼博士书中涉及的案例总结。 So, that's the summary of the cases covered by Dr. Serafini in his book.
这些案例都经过了科学调查，且调查结果已被公布。 Uh, these are the ones that have both had scientific investigations done and in which the results have been published.
可能还有其他案例被下令调查，但要么结果未公布，要么塞拉菲尼博士并不知情。 There may have been others where investigations were ordered, but either the results weren't published or Dr. Serafini didn't know about them.
不过，这为我们从信仰和理性的角度审视圣餐神迹提供了基础。 Nevertheless, this provides us with a basis for looking at Eucharistic miracles from the perspectives of faith and reason.
在进入我们的理论和信仰与理性视角之前，我们想花点时间感谢使本节目成 为可能的赞助人，包括凯西·N、艾伦·P、多琳·M、兰迪·S和科迪。 Before we get to our theories and our faith and reason perspectives, we'd like to take a moment to thank our patrons who make this show possible, including Kathy N., Allen P., Doreen M., Randy S., and Cody.
他们在 sqpn.com/give 的慷慨捐助使我们能 够继续制作吉米·阿金的神秘世界以及星际探索的所有节目。 Their generous donations at sqpn.com/give make it possible for us to continue Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World and all the shows at StarQuest.
您也可以通过访问 sqpn.com/give 加入他们。 You can join them by visiting sqpn.com/give.
吉米·阿金的神秘世界部分得益于赞助商的慷慨支持，包括 Aaron Ferg uson Electric & Automation（网站 aaronv. com），为北佛罗里达和中佛罗里达的自动化和智能家居需求提供终身连接。 Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World is also brought to you in part through the generous support of our sponsors, including Aaron Ferguson Electric & Automation at aaronv.com, A-A-R-O-N v.com, making connections for life for your automation and smart home needs in North and Central Florida.
吉米·阿金的神秘世界还部分由《教理课》赞助，这是由格雷格和詹妮弗 ·威利茨主持的一个充满活力的每周播客，带领大家学习公教会教理。 Jimmy Akins' Mysterious World is also brought to you in part by Catechism Class, a dynamic weekly podcast journey through the catechism of the Catholic Church, by Greg and Jennifer Willits.
它是最棒的读书会、咖啡聊天和信仰学习小组的结合。 It's the best book club, coffee talk, and faith study group all rolled into one.
您可以在任何播客目录中找到它。 Find it in any podcast directory.
那么吉米，有哪些关于圣餐神迹的系列节目？ So Jimmy, what series are there about Eucharistic miracles?
这取决于考虑的是哪种类型的神迹。 Well, it depends on the type of miracle being considered.
本集我们讨论的是饼和酒外观发生变化的圣餐神迹，这里主要分为两类。 In this episode, we are considering Eucharistic miracles where the appearance of the bread and wine changes, and here, there are two principal divisions.
有时，饼和酒只短暂地看起来像别的东西，比如肉 和血，或婴儿耶稣，然后又变回饼和酒的样子。 Sometimes, the elements only briefly look like something else, such as flesh and blood, or the infant Jesus, and then they change back to looking like bread and wine.
如果发生这种情况，可能是有人经历了异象，这就要归 入私人启示范畴，并用评估私人启示的标准来处理。 If that happens, it could be that someone has had a visionary experience, uh, and you'd have to treat that under the heading of private revelation and use the criteria suited to evaluate private revelations.
但在那些情况下，事后没有可供检验的实物，所以本集我们关注 的是外观发生永久变化的圣餐神迹，因此可以进行科学研究。 But in those cases, there's nothing physical to examine afterwards, so in this episode, we're looking at Eucharistic miracles where there was a permanent change of appearance, and thus scientific studies can be done.
这些案例通常有三种解释类型。 There are three general types of explanations that can be involved in these cases.
第一种是自然解释，即实际上没有发生任何异常。 First, there are natural explanations, where it turns out that nothing unusual has actually happened.
第二种是最终解释是超自然的，这种情况下就是发生了神迹。 Second, the ultimate explanation may be supernatural, in which case a miracle has occurred.
第三种可能是非超自然但仍属超常现象的解释，意味着发生了奇怪的事情，但不是神迹。 And third, there could be non-supernatural, but still paranormal explanations, meaning that something strange happened, but it wasn't a miracle.
我们从理性的角度来看一下这些解释。 Let's look at each of these from the reason perspective.
首先谈谈非超自然但仍属超常现象的解释。 First, let's talk about the non-supernatural, but still paranormal explanations.
这些解释可能涉及什么？你认为它们有多大可能性？ What could these involve, and how likely do you think such explanations are?
超自然和超常现象的界限模糊，如何区分取决于你使用的定义。 The border between the supernatural and the paranormal is a fuzzy one, and how to dis- distinguish them depends on the definitions you use.
它们都涉及发生了超出我们西方所认为的自然正常运作范围的事情。 They both involve something happening that is outside of what we, in the West, would consider the ordinary operation of nature.
不过，就我们目前的目的，我会根据人性被认为能做什么和不能做什么来区分这两者。 However, for our present purposes, I'll distinguish between the two, uh, based on what human nature is claimed to be capable of doing and what human nature is not capable of doing.
Super 是拉丁语，意为“超越”，所以如果某 事涉及超出人性能力的能力，那它就是超自然的。 Super is Latin for above, so something would be supernatural if it involves an ability that is above what human nature can do.
因此，如果发生了这样的事，必然涉及神或非人类灵体的作为，比如天使或魔鬼。 So, if it happens, it would have to involve the action of God or a non-human spirit, like an angel or a demon.
然而，para 是希腊语，意为“并列”，超常现象 与正常现象并存，因此它们可能在人性的能力范围内。 However, para is Greek for alongside, and paranormal events occur alongside normal ones, and as such, they can be within the reach of human nature.
人性通常可能做不到某些事情，但在某些情况下可能能做到 ，这种情况就是超常现象，或说是与人性正常行为并列。 Uh, human nature may not normally do certain things, but in certain cases, it might be able to accomplish them, in which case they would be paranormal, or alongside what human nature normally does.
这种人性异常的表现就是所谓的灵能，正如我们在第79集关于宗教、魔法、灵异 现象与科学，以及第105和106集关于圣托马斯·阿奎那与神秘学中讨论的。 Such unusual operations of human nature are what psychic abilities are claimed to be, as we discussed in episode 79 on religion, magic, psychic phenomena, and science, and in episodes 105 and 106 on Saint Thomas Aquinas and the occult.
这并不是说灵能一定存在，但教会博士如圣奥古斯丁和圣托马斯·阿奎那认为它们存在 ——因此我们需要假设性地考虑，是否有此类能力能导致祝圣元素外观的永久变化。 This isn't to say that psychic abilities exist, but doctors of the church, like Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, held that they did-And so we need to consider, just hypothetically, whether any such abilities could be responsible for a permanent change in the appearances of the consecrated elements.
有没有报告过能产生类似效果的灵能？ Have psychic abilities been reported that could produce an effect like this?
有。 Yes.
有时，物质通灵者，也就是能产生物理效应的通 灵者，报告过所谓的“搬运”和“带来”现象。 Uh, sometimes physical mediums, meaning mediums that produce physical effects, have reported what are known as asports and apports.
asport 一词来自拉丁语，意为“带走”，指的 是物体从一个地方消失后出现在另一个地方的现象。 Uh, the word asport comes from Latin roots that mean to carry away from, so an asport occurs when a physical object disappears from one location and reappears in another.
相反，apport 一词来自拉丁语，意为“带 来”，指的是物体通过超常手段突然出现在某地。 By contrast, the word apport comes from a Latin root meaning to bring, so an apport is an object that suddenly appears, uh, having been brought to a location by paranormal means.
这可能意味着物体突然显现，或者是从另一个地方被带来。 This could either mean that it has suddenly materialized or that it's suddenly been brought from another location.
搬运和带来现象可以看作是通常所说的瞬间移动， 通过瞬间移动，理论上可以在不同地点交换物体。 Asportation and apportation, uh, thus can be cases of what would more commonly be called teleportation, and by teleportation, one could hypothetically swap objects between different locations.
如果这些现象是真实的，且神允许的话，就有可能将祝圣元 素与远处的人类肉体和血液交换，从而产生所报告的效果。 If these phenomena turned out to be real and if God allowed it, uh, it would be possible to swap the consecrated elements for human flesh and blood from a distant location, and that could produce the reported effect.
还有其他声称能产生同样效果的灵能吗？ Are there other claimed psychic abilities that can produce the same effect?
我想到的唯一其他灵能是念力，也就是意念控制物质。 The only other one that comes to mind is psychokinesis or mind over matter.
在这种情况下，一个具有念力的人需要有意识或无 意识地操控这些元素，使其发生永久性的变化。 In this case, a psychokinetic person would need to consciously or unconsciously manipulate the elements so that there was a permanent change in them.
这种变化具体如何实现本身就是一系列复杂的问题， 我提到它只是为了完整地勾勒出可能的假设性解释。 Exactly how that would work would itself involve a difficult set of questions, and I only mention it for the sake of completely mapping out the possible hypothetical explanations.
你认为这些非超自然的超常现象解释有道理吗？ Do you think any of these non-supernatural paranormal explanations have any merit?
不，我不这么认为。 No, I don't.
首先，据我所知，在严格控制的实验室条件下，没有记录过搬运或带来现象的案例。 Uh, in the first place, as far as I'm aware, there have been no cases of apportation or asportation documented under tightly controlled laboratory conditions.
相反，那些声称拥有这些能力的物质通灵者多被揭露为骗子。 Instead, physical mediums claiming these abilities have been exposed as frauds.
虽然有超心理学研究支持念力的存在，但这些研究并不涉及能将一种物质分子层面 转变为另一种物质的念力，更不用说处理祝圣元素等涉及的复杂形而上学问题。 And while there are parapsychological studies supporting the existence of psychokinesis, they don't involve the kind of psychokinesis needed to molecularly transform one substance into another, much less do they deal with the thorny metaphysical questions that would be involved in things like consecrated elements.
此外，正如我在《神秘世界》中常说的，每个现象 都应按表面现象接受，除非有证据表明不是如此。 Furthermore, as I often say on Mysterious World, every phenomenon needs to be taken at face value until we have evidence otherwise.
圣餐神迹的报告将这些事件呈现为超自然事件，因此如果圣餐神迹涉及任何 异常，应当理解为超自然，除非有证据表明不是，而我们没有这样的证据。 So Eucharistic miracle reports present the events as supernatural ones, so if Eucharistic miracles involve anything unusual, they should be understood as supernatural until we have evidence otherwise, and we don't have such evidence.
所以我认为我们不需要再花时间关注假设性的超常现象解释。 So I don't think that we need to devote further attention to hypothetical paranormal explanations.
那我们来看可能的自然解释。 Then let's look at possible natural explanations.
这里可能涉及什么？ What might be involved here?
我们考虑的这些案例都涉及可以科学研究的物体，不是谣言、传说 、精神疾病或误解造成的，因此只剩两种自然解释：误认和骗局。 In the cases we're considering, which all involve objects that can be scientifically studied, we're not dealing with accounts that could be chalked up to rumor, legends, mental illness or misperceptions, so there are only two remaining natural explanations that could be involved: misidentifications and hoaxes.
误认如何发生？它又与误解有何不同？ How could misidentification be involved, and how would that differ from misperception?
误解是指在视线不佳的情况下，比如远距离、黑暗或短 暂一瞥时，错误地感知到某种现象，导致感官误判。 In a case of misperception, someone would falsely perceive a phenomenon, like seeing something under poor viewing conditions, such as in the distance, in the dark, or only for a brief moment, resulting in an erroneous sensory perception.
但这些案例中，相关物体是在良好视线、近距离、充 足光线和长时间观察下被看到的，因此不属于误解。 But that wouldn't apply in these cases where the relevant objects have been observed in good viewing conditions, up close, in full light, and over a long period of time.
所以这里不存在误解。 So there's no misperception here.
这些物体确实看起来像肉和血，但这并不意味着它们被正确识别了。 These objects genuinely look like they're flesh and blood, but that doesn't mean they've been correctly identified.
它们可能看起来像肉和血，但可能是误认了其他看起来像肉和血的东西。 They might look like flesh and blood, but this might be misidentification involving something else that looks like flesh and blood.
那可能是什么东西呢？ What kind of thing might that be?
一种可能是名为红色假单胞菌的细菌。 One possibility is a bacterium known as Serratia marcescens.
这种细菌于1819年被发现。 Uh, this bacteria was discovered in 1819.
它呈红色，可以生长在小麦上，这意味着它能生长在圣饼上，使圣饼看起来像在流血。 It is red in color, and it can grow on wheat, meaning it could grow on hosts and make them look like they're bleeding.
因此，它被提出作为圣饼似乎流血的可能自然解释，这也许能解释一些报告。 As a result, it's been proposed as a possible natural explanation for hosts that appear to bleed, and this may be the explanation for some reports.
你认为它能解释塞拉菲尼博士书中提到的任何报告吗？ Do you think it could be responsible for any of the reports Dr. Serafini covered in his book?
不能，因为这些都经过显微镜检查，像红色假单胞菌这样的杆状细菌的存在会立刻显现。 No, because all of these were examined under microscopes, and the presence of a rod-shaped bacterium like Serratia marcescens, uh, would have been immediately obvious.
相关科学家不仅没看到这种杆状细菌，还报告看到了人体细胞。 Uh, not only did the scientists involved not see this rod-shaped bacterium, they reported seeing human cells.
因此，尽管怀疑者提出这种细菌的可能性，但它无法解释我们正在研究的这些案例。 So despite the appeals of skeptics to this bacterium, it won't explain the cases that we're examining.
那么，作为这些案例的自然解释，我们剩下什么？ What does that leave us with as a natural explanation for the cases we're looking at?
本质上，只剩下骗局。 Essentially, it would leave us with hoaxes.
鉴于这长达两千年的时间跨度和世界上众多基督徒，包括今天的二十亿人， 历史上无疑有各种个人因名声、利益、精神疾病或恶作剧而伪造圣餐神迹。 但问题是科学证据是否支持这五个案例是骗局的说法，因为无论多少案例能 用自然方式解释，只要有一个案例无法如此解释，就能证明现象的真实性。 Uh, given the vast 2,000-year length of time involved and the vast number of Christians in the world, including the two billion alive today, frauds involving Eucharistic miracles undoubtedly have been committed by various individuals in history for reasons including fame, profit, mental illness and simply pranking others.But the question is whether the scientific evidence supports the idea of hoaxes in these five cases, because no matter how many cases are explained by natural means, all it takes is one case that can't be explained this way to prove the reality of a phenomenon.
你只需要一个真正的外星飞碟，或一次真正的大脚怪遭遇 ，或一次真正的圣餐神迹，就能证明该现象是真实的。 All you need is one genuinely alien UFO, or one genuine Bigfoot encounter, or one genuine Eucharistic miracle, and you've shown that the phenomenon is real.
如果你是一个怀疑的唯物主义者，不相信神迹可能存在 ，并打算用欺诈来解释这些案例，你会关注哪些方面？ If you were a skeptical materialist, someone who didn't believe that miracles were possible, and you were going to propose fraud as an explanation for these cases, what aspects of them would you focus on?
我会关注所谓的来源或保管链。 I'd focus on what's known as prov- provenance or chain of custody.
也就是说，我会关注这些元素在科学检验前后经历了什么。 Uh, that is, I'd focus on what happened to the elements before and during the period of scientific examination.
来源是艺术和考古等领域常见的概念。 Provenance is a concept that often comes up in fields like art and archeology.
了解文物的历史对于确定其真伪非常重要。 It can be important to know the history of an artifact in order to establish whether or not it's genuine.
比如，假设你是埃及考古学家，在挖掘一个遗址时，地 面穿透雷达显示地下10英尺处有一个隐藏的密室。 For example, suppose that you're an archeologist at a dig in Egypt, and while you're excavating a site, your ground-penetrating radar indicates that there is a hidden chamber 10 feet underground.
于是你让工人挖了一个10英尺深的坑。 So, you get your diggers to work at making a 10-foot hole in the earth.
土壤密实，显然自古以来未被扰动，然后你挖到了隐藏的密室并打开它。 The earth is densely packed and obviously hasn't been disturbed since ancient times, and then you get down to the hidden chamber and open it.
里面你发现了一个埃及神祇的小雕像。 And inside, you find a statuette of an Egyptian god.
比如托特，月亮和文字的鹮头神。 Let's say Thoth, the ibis-headed god of the moon and writing.
你在考古学家称为原址（in situ）的地方发现了这尊雕像， 且你挖掘了10英尺未被扰动的土层，因此几乎不可能有古董伪造者 将雕像栽赃于此，你可以非常有信心地认为它是真正的古埃及文物。 You found this statuette in what archeologists call in situ, a Latin phrase meaning at the site of discovery, and since you dug through 10 feet of earth that hadn't been disturbed in centuries, there's no realistic chance that an antiquities forger managed to plant the statuette here, so you have very high confidence that it's a genuine ancient Egyptian artifact.
但现在假设你挖掘间歇，去开罗吃午饭。 But now suppose that you're taking a break from your dig and you're going out to lunch in Cairo.
在去餐厅的路上…… On your way to the restaurant...
顺便说一句，我去过开罗的餐厅。 and by the way, I've been to restaurants in Cairo.
记得用洗手液。 Use hand sanitizer.
我只是提醒一下。 I'm just saying.
无论如何，在去餐厅的路上，你经过一家古董店，决定进去看看。 Um, in any event, on your way to the restaurant, you pass an antique dealer shop and decide to take a look.
店里你发现他也有一尊托特雕像，看起来和你刚挖出的那个很像。 Inside the shop, you discover that he also has a statuette of Thoth, and it looks a lot like the one you just dug up.
但你不能像之前那样有信心它是真品，因为古董市场充斥着大量赝品。 But you can't be as confident that it's a genuine artifact, because the antiquities market has lots of frauds on it.
古董伪造者经常制造古文物的假货以牟利，而你在店里看到的雕像可能就是赝品。 Uh, antiquities forgers regularly make fake copies of ancient artifacts so they can get money, and the statuette you're looking at in the shop could be such a fake.
专家有方法鉴别赝品，但这并不总是容易的。 There are ways experts can try to detect such fakes, but it isn't always easy.
有时古董伪造者技艺高超，能骗过专家。 Sometimes antiquities forgers are so good, they can slip things past experts.
你无法对店里的雕像有信心的关键原因是你不是在原址发现它的。 And the key reason that you can't be confident of the statuette in the shop is that you didn't find it in situ.
它不在原始发现地。 It's not at the original site.
它在店里，你不知道它是怎么到那里的。 It's in a shop, and you don't know how it got there.
你不知道它的来源或保管链，也不知道它是如何从发现地到达你看到的这家店的。 You don't know its provenance or chain of custody, how it allegedly got from the site of discovery to the shop where you're seeing it.
艺术界也会发生类似情况，了解一幅画的历史和历年所 有者对于确定它不是艺术伪造者近期作品非常重要。 The same thing can happen in the art world, where it can be very important to know the history of a painting and who owned it over the years in order to establish that it's not a recent creation by an art forger.
当然，法律领域也是如此，证据的保管链在刑事审判中非常重要。 And of course, the same thing applies in the legal world with, with the chain of custody of evidence being important in criminal trials.
没错。 Exactly.
这就是为什么警方会严格记录犯罪现场的证据收集过程。 That's why the police try to rigorously document the collection of evidence at the scene of a crime.
他们会先拍照。 They photograph it first.
他们尽量避免现场污染证据。 They try to avoid contaminating it at the scene.
他们会将证据装袋。 They bag it.
他们会记录证据及其保管人。 They make a log of the evidence and who has it.
他们甚至可能录像收集过程，然后将证据存放在安全室内。 They may even videotape the collection procedure, and then they store it in a secure room.
他们记录所有进入该房间的人员，然后将证据交给合格的法医实验室。 They document everyone who has access to this room, and then they turn it over to a qualified forensics lab.
即使如此，保管链仍被记录，因为实验室可能出现证据 污染或意外、故意篡改的情况，所以他们非常谨慎。 Even then, the chain of custody is still documented, because there can be laboratory shenanigans in which evidence is contaminated or accidentally or deliberately altered, so they try to be really careful.
如果律师能质疑保管链，可能会使当事人被判无罪。 And if attorneys can impeach the chain of custody, they may be able to get their clients declared innocent.
如果你是一个怀疑的唯物主义者，想用这个来质疑我 们正在讨论的五个圣餐神迹的保管链，你会怎么做？ How, if you were a skeptical materialist, would you use this to impeach the chain of custody of the five Eucharistic miracles we're considering?
我会说我们没有这些案例的完美保管链。 I would argue that we don't have perfect chains of custody on them.
最糟糕的是兰恰诺的神迹。 The worst is the Lanciano miracle.
在那个案例中，我们不知道具体的时间、方式和相关人员。 In that case, we don't know the when, how, and who of it all.
据称神迹发生在700年代，但最早描述其历史的文献却是900年后写的。 The miracle allegedly occurred in the 700s, but the earliest document describing its history is from 900 years later.
从证据角度看，这是一份极差的来源记录。 And from an evidential perspective, that's a terrible record of its provenance.
我们真正拥有的只是实物遗物，对于900年后写成 且中间无任何文献的记载，我们不能抱太大信心。 Uh, all we really have is the physical artifact itself, and we can't place a lot of confidence in an account written 900 years later with no intervening documentation.
所以，即使科学测试显示这是人体组织，我们怎么知道有 人没有在中世纪早期拿到一些人体组织冒充圣餐神迹？ So, even if the scientific tests show that this is human tissue, how do we know someone didn't just get some human tissue in the early Middle Ages and pass it off as a Eucharistic miracle?
那后来的案例呢？ What about the later cases?
它们的保管链更好吗？ Do they have better chains of custody?
从某种角度看，是的，因为这些案例有当时的文 献记录，说明遗物如何被收集、由谁保管等等。 From one perspective, yes, uh, because in these cases, we have contemporary documentation of how the relics were collected, uh, who had custody of them, and so forth.
不过，即使收集后，它们也不总是被存放在非常安全的环境中。 However, even after they were collected, they weren't always stored in super secure conditions.
它们通常最初存放在堂区的圣体龛中，圣体龛是锁着的以防止圣餐被亵渎。但圣 体龛通常有不止一把钥匙，尤其是在圣饼最初看起来正常，后来在圣体龛中溶解 时外观发生变化的案例中，我们怎么知道有钥匙的修女或神父没有打开圣体龛， 然后往水里放入人体组织，让人们在无人注意时误以为发生了圣餐神迹？ Uh, often they were initially stored in a tabernacle in a parish, and tabernacles are locked to prevent desecration of the Eucharist.But there's often more than one key to a tabernacle, so especially in cases where the host initially appeared normal and then changed appearance in the tabernacle while they were trying to dissolve it in water, how do we know a nun or a priest who had a key didn't unlock the tabernacle, then dropped some human tissue into the water, making people think a Eucharistic miracle had occurred when no one was looking?
这不也适用于刑事案件中的证据吗？ Doesn't the same thing apply to evidence in crime cases?
警方的证据柜也有钥匙，所以我们不能排除有钥匙的人进入证据柜篡改或栽赃的可能性。 Police evidence lockers also have keys, so we can't rule out the possibility that someone with a key got into the evidence locker and tampered with or planted evidence.
没错，但法院不会仅因为这是个假设的可能性就自动排除证据。 That's correct, and yet the courts don't automatically throw out evidence just because this is a hypothetical possibility.
如果你有理由认为某个警察局或警官腐败，会故意篡改证据，那是另 一回事，但在某种程度上，你必须信任那些职责是值得信赖的人。 It's one thing if you have reason to think a particular police department or police official is corrupt and would deliberately tamper with evidence, but at some point, you have to trust people whose job it is to be trustworthy.
所以除非你能质疑某个机构或官员，否则法院仍会采信警方的证据。 So unless you can impeach a particular office or officer, courts still honor the evidence the police have.
同样的标准也应适用于圣餐神迹的案例。 The same standard needs to be applied in the case of Eucharistic miracles.
像警察一样，神父和修女也应该是值得信赖的。 Like the police, priests and nuns are supposed to be trustworthy.
他们也并非总是值得信赖，但这是他们的职责所在。 Uh, like the police, they aren't always trustworthy, but it's part of their job.
所以除非你有证据质疑某位保管者，否则我认为我们应相信 他们的话，相信自收集以来报告的圣餐神迹没有被篡改。 And so unless you have evidence impeaching a particular priest or nun who had custody, then I think we need to take them at their word and give the, give credence to the claim that the reported Eucharistic miracle hasn't been tampered with since it was collected.
那神迹发生在弥撒期间的案例呢？ What about cases where the miracle occurred during mass?
在那些情况下，神迹是立即发生的，而不是在被锁起来不让公众看到的时候。 In those cases, the miracle happened immediately, not while locked away from public view.
如果是在普通堂区弥撒上，可能是在数百人面前发生的。 Instead, if it was at a typical parish mass, it may have happened in front of hundreds of people.
这里有几个需要谨慎的原因。 There are a couple of reasons for caution here.
首先，舞台魔术师经常用手法让物体在数百人面前显现和消失。 First, stage magicians use sleight-of-hand techniques to make objects seem to appear and disappear in front of hundreds of people a- all the time.
如果你是舞台魔术师，这是你的工作内容，所以即 使有数百人观看，也不能排除手法欺诈的可能。 If you're a stage magician, that's part of your job, and so even when hundreds of people are watching, it doesn't rule out fraud due to sleight of hand.
其次，更重要的是，神迹发生的瞬间通常不会被数百人目睹。 However, secondly and more importantly, the moment of the miracle isn't typically witnessed by hundreds of people.
弥撒中，人们都在忙自己的事情，眼睛看向各个方向。 At mass, people are all going about their business with their eyes pointed in lots of different directions.
这种情况下，通常没人报告看到圣饼或圣杯变化的瞬间。 What happens in this type of case is that usually nobody reports seeing the moment that the change in the host or chalice takes place.
反而是某个人，通常只有一个人，低头看到奇怪的东西 ，比如开始流血的圣饼或他们以为是圣饼的一块肉。 Instead, someone, usually one person, looks down and sees something strange, like a host that has begun to bleed or a piece of flesh they thought had been a host.
然后这被报告给主持弥撒的神父，被称为神迹或可能的神迹，随后被放进圣体龛。 Then this is brought to the attention of the priest who's celebrating mass, it gets hailed as a miracle or possible miracle, and they put it in the tabernacle.
这意味着我们只有一个最初目击者看到奇怪的东 西，而该目击者通常并不声称看到变化的瞬间。 This means that we have one initial witness to something strange, and that witness often doesn't claim to have seen the moment of transformation.
因此，从怀疑的角度看，我们不能排除目击者或其他人暗中做了什么，让它看起来像神 迹发生了，比如替换一块肉，替换一块之前被涂过血的圣饼，甚至用手法当场涂血。 Consequently, from a skeptical viewpoint, we can't rule out that someone, either the witness or someone else, didn't do something surreptitious to make it look like a miracle had happened, like substituting a piece of flesh, substituting a host that they had previously squirted blood on, or even squirting blood on it at the moment using sleight of hand.
但你不能仅凭断言说这些案例就是这样发生的。 But you can't simply assert that this is what happened in these cases.
你不需要证据来支持这种说法吗？ Wouldn't you need evidence to make that claim?
怀疑者不能仅凭断言说某个案例一定涉及欺诈，这是真的。 It's true that a skeptic cannot simply assert that fraud must have been involved in a particular case.
不过，如果我们只谈少数几个案例，而最可能的自然解释是欺诈，鉴于自然解释比超 常或超自然解释更常见，提出欺诈的可能性是合理的，可以说：“我们这里只看少数 案例，既然自然解释最常见，我认为这些案例最可能有自然原因，而最可能的自然原 因是欺诈，所以我提出这就是这些案例的发生原因。”我认为这是理性的提议。 However, if we're talking about just a handful of cases, and if the most likely natural explanation for something is fraud, then in light of the fact that natural explanations are more common for unusual phenomena than paranormal or supernatural ones, it can be reasonable to propose fraud and say, "We're only looking at a small number of cases here, and since natural explanations are the most common, I think these most likely have a natural cause, and the most likely natural cause is fraud, so I propose that's what happened in these cases." And I think one can rationally make such a proposal.
如果有其他证据表明这种可能性不大，那么理性上不能断言这种提议。 What one couldn't rationally do is assert such a proposal if there is other evidence that makes it unlikely.
那么请你停止假装是怀疑的唯物主义者，来看问题的另一面。 Then let's have you stop pretending to be a skeptical materialist and look at the other side of the issue.
有没有证据让欺诈的提议变得不太可能？ Is there evidence that would make the fraud prop- pro- proposal unlikely?
考虑问题的另一面，我认为可以提出几个论点。 Considering the other side of the equation, I think there are several arguments that one can make.
第一个是科学研究在实验室检查遗物时发现的共性。 Uh, the first one involves the commonalities that the scientific studies have turned up when the relics have been examined in laboratory settings.
根据这个论点，不是某一个案例能否定欺诈。 Um, on this argument, it isn't any one case that disproves fraud.
而是这五个案例合起来，表现出使欺诈不太可能的特征。 Instead, it's all five taken together, uh, that display qualities that make fraud unlikely.
比如，我们来看一个假设的情景，我先声明这是假设的情景，并非我们有科学证据证明的。 For example, let's look at a hypothetical scenario, and I, I wanna make it clear up front that this is a hypothetical scenario, not one that we have scientific proof of.
假设，为了说明这个概念，我们对这五个案例的遗物进行了DN A测试，从700年代的兰恰诺到2013年的莱格尼察，结果 发现所有遗物的遗传密码完全相同，意味着它们来自同一个人。 But suppose, uh, for purposes of making the concept clear, suppose we ran DNA tests on the relics of all five cases, from Lanciano in the 700s to Legnica in 2013, and suppose that it turned out that all of the relics had the exact same genetic code, meaning that they came from the same individual.
极其不可能，几乎是天文数字般的不可能，世界各地不同年份的骗子能够获得 并伪造出五起事件中都含有同一个人的生物材料DNA。尤其是在兰恰诺案例 中更不可能，因为虽然我们没有追溯到700年代的保管链，但至少有四个世 纪的保管链记录，而四百年前的人不可能和今天的人拥有相同的DNA。 It is unlikely in the extreme, uh, astronomically unlikely, that fraudsters across the world in different years would be able to both get and then fraudulently plant biological material with the DNA of the same person in all five events.Uh, that's especially unlikely in the Lanciano case, because even though we don't have a chain of custody going back to the 700s, we do have a chain of custody that goes back at least four centuries, and nobody living four centuries ago would've had the same DNA as someone living today.
因此，这个例子清楚地表明，对这五个案例的科学研究可能揭示它 们的共性，比如都拥有相同的DNA，这将使欺诈的可能性极低。 So, as this illustration makes clear, the scientific study of the five cases could reveal commonalities among them, like them all having the same DNA, that would make fraud very, very unlikely.
你看，这是一个用来说明概念的假设案例。 You see, that's a hypothetical case to illustrate the concept.
所以，我们没有那种DNA证据。 So, we don't have that kind of DNA- DNA evidence.
为什么没有？ Why not?
兰恰诺的情况是因为最后一次…… In the case of Lanciano, it's because the last...
它最后一次被研究是在1980年代，当时还没有现代DNA测序 技术；而索科尔卡案例是在2008年，尽管当时已有DNA检测 技术，但他们奇怪地没有做DNA测试，而是做了其他测试。 It was last studied in the 1980s, when modern DNA sequencing didn't exist, and in the case of Sokolka, in 2008, despite the fact that DNA testing did exist at the time, they strangely didn't do it, and ran other tests instead.
至于另外三个案例，布宜诺斯艾利斯、蒂克斯特拉和莱格尼察，他们确实做了DNA 测试，但布宜诺斯艾利斯和蒂克斯特拉未能得出结果，莱格尼察只获得了部分结果。 In the case of the other three, uh, Buenos Aires, Tixtla, and Legnica, they did do DNA testing, but they weren't able to establish results from Buenos Aires and Tixtla, and they only got partial results from Legnica.
所以，我们没有能力比较这些神迹的DNA，看看它们是否来自同一个人。 So, no, we don't have the ability to compare the DNA of the miracles and see if they came from the same individual.
为什么他们无法从测试的样本中获得可用的DNA结果？ Why weren't they able to get usable DNA results from the samples they did test?
有几个可能的原因。 There are several potential reasons.
一个原因是DNA技术一直在快速发展。 One is that DNA technology has been, uh, rapidly developing.
现在的技术比1990年代更先进，但布宜诺斯艾利斯的测试是在1990年代进行的。 It's better now than it was in the 1990s, but Buenos Aires was tested in the 1990s.
此外，科学家们只被允许取非常小的样本，这使得建立有用的DNA谱系更加困难。 Also, the scientists were only allowed to take very small samples, and doing that makes it harder to develop a useful DNA profile.
你可以判断一些基本信息，比如这是人类DNA，但无法确定具体个体。 You can tell basic things, like this is human DNA, but you can't profile an individual.
最后，报告的神迹遗物并未在科学实验室条件下 保存，DNA如果不妥善保存会随时间降解。 And finally, the relics of the reported miracles were not stored under scientific laboratory conditions, and DNA degrades over time if you don't take care of it.
这些遗物在室温下保存，没有防腐剂，有的甚至存放在不 合适的介质中，比如蒸馏水，而蒸馏水会导致细胞破裂。 Uh, in these cases, the relics were stored at room temperature without preservative agents, and in improper storage media, such as distilled water, in one case, and distilled water causes cells to burst.
因此，这些因素导致DNA降解严重，无法建立单一个体的遗传谱系。 Um, as a result of these factors, the DNA was too degraded for them to build a genetic profile of a single individual.
那我们来说说测试发现了什么。 Then let's talk about what the tests did find.
他们在这些遗物相关的血液中发现了什么？ What did they find when they looked at the blood associated with these relics?
遗憾的是，他们没有对每个案例进行相同的测试，这意味着我们无 法直接比较五个案例的每项测试，但他们在兰恰诺、布宜诺斯艾利 斯和蒂克斯特拉三个案例中分离出了血液，且每次都是人血。 It's unfortunate that they didn't run identical tests in each case, meaning we can't directly compare all five cases on each test, but they isolated blood in three of the cases, uh, Lanciano, Buenos Aires, and Tixtla, and in each case, it turned out to be human blood.
所以，无论这些样本来自谁，都是人类的血液。 So, whoever these samples came from, they were human.
此外，在兰恰诺和蒂克斯特拉两个案例中，他们能够确定血型。 Also, in two cases, Lanciano and Tixtla, they were able to determine the blood type.
血型一般分为四种：O型、A型、B型和AB型。 There are four general blood types, type O blood, type A blood, type B blood, and type AB blood.
其中，AB型最罕见，只有约5%，也就是20个人中有1个。 Of these, type AB is the rarest, with only about 5% or 1 in 20 people having it.
兰恰诺和蒂克斯特拉的血液都是AB型。 Both Lanciano and Tixtla involved AB blood.
如果随机从世界上挑选两个人，出现这种情况的概率是20乘以20，也就是1/400。 The odds of that happening by random chance, if you picked two random people outta the world, would be 20 times 20, or 1 in 400.
即使不考虑早期样本必须有血型的事实，第二个 样本血型相同的概率也只有5%，即1/20。 Even if you set aside the earlier sample on the ground that it must have some blood type, the odds that the second would have the same type of blood would only be 5%, or 1 in 20.
所以，无论你怎么看，这种情况是随机发生的概率 都很低，要么是1/20，要么是1/400。 So, regardless of how you wanna look at it, the odds of this being due to random chance are low, either 1 in 20 or 1 in 400.
这可以作为支持神迹而非骗局的证据。 Uh, that would count as evidence in favor of the miraculous as opposed to hoaxes.
除了四大血型外，还有血液是Rh阳性还是Rh阴性的问题。 In addition to the four major blood groups, there's also whether someone's blood is Rh-positive or Rh-negative.
他们在这方面发现了什么吗？ Did they find anything out in this regard?
2010年对蒂克斯特拉血液的测试显示它是R h阴性，而AB阴性是世界上最罕见的血型。 In 2010, there was a test on the Tixtla blood that revealed it was Rh-negative, and AB-negative is the rarest blood type in the world.
只有0.5%，也就是200个人中有1个人拥有这种血型。 Only 0.5%, or 1 in 200 people, has that.
遗憾的是，这项测试只在蒂克斯特拉案例中做过，所以我们没有其他数据可供比较。 Unfortunately, they only did this in the case of Tixtla, so we don't have anything to compare it with.
不过，这些事件中不仅仅涉及血液。 It wasn't just blood that was involved in these incidents, though.
在兰恰诺的案例中，据说圣饼变成了一块实心组织。 In Lanciano's case, a host reportedly turned into a piece of solid tissue.
他们研究后发现了什么？ What'd they find when they studied that?
他们发现它是心肌组织。 They found out it was made of heart muscle.
实际上，它是人体心脏的横截面，这也是它中间有一个大洞的原因之一。 In fact, it was a cross-section of the human heart, and that's part of why it's got a big hole in the middle of it.
更奇怪的是，其他四个案例中似乎也发现了心肌 组织，甚至包括那些他们试图溶解的案例…… And here's where things get stranger, because it turns out that it looks like heart muscle tissue was found in the other four cases as well, even the ones that they tried to dissolve, um...
他们试图将一块脏圣饼溶解在水中，结果出现了类似血块的东西。 Where they tried to dissolve a dirty host in water, and it grew what looked like a blood clot.
那不是血块，而是含有心肌组织，这非常有趣，因为这对骗 局假说提出了更大挑战，心肌组织可不是那么容易获得的。 It wasn't a blood clot, but contained heart muscle tissue, and that's really interesting, because it poses further challenges to the hoax hypothesis, because heart muscle tissue isn't easy to get.
你必须开膛破肚才能得到它。 Uh, you have to cut a person open to get it.
那么，如果这些都是骗局，为什么五个案例中都是心肌组织呢？ So why, if these were due to hoaxes, would it be heart muscle tissue in all five cases?
获取其他肌肉组织要容易得多，不需要撬开胸腔。 It would be much easier to get tissue from other muscles that don't require you to wrench the chest cavity open.
骗子更可能选择容易得到的肌肉组织。 Hoaxers would more naturally take the low-hanging fruit and get muscle tissue that was easier to obtain.
即使你剖开尸体取心肌组织，它看起来也会是实心的。 And even if you cut open a cadaver to get some heart muscle tissue, it would still look solid.
那么，为什么它看起来像血块呢？ So, why would it look like a blood clot?
从骗局的角度看，这真是非常奇怪。 Um, this is just really strange from the perspective of hoaxing.
这些遗物还有其他共同特征吗？ Were there other qualities that the relics had in common?
有的。 Yes.
在四个案例中，心肌组织看起来来自刚经历过严重创伤的人，而不是平静去世的人。 In four of the cases, the heart muscle tissue looked like it came from a person who had just suffered severe trauma, not someone who had died peacefully.
塞拉菲尼博士解释说： Dr. Serafini explains:
「布宜诺斯艾利斯、蒂克斯特拉、索科尔卡和莱格尼察的心肌组织都显示出特定的病理迹象 ，提示一个共同且狭窄的鉴别诊断范围，即少数几种医学和创伤状况会导致这些组织中观察 到的异常特征，这些都与极端的身体、情感和精神痛苦有关，从更广泛的非医学角度来看。 "The heart muscle tissues of Buenos Aires, Ixtla, Sokotra, and Legnica all revealed specific pathological signs suggestive of a common and narrow differential diagnosis, a limited number of medical and traumatic conditions that would give rise to the abnormal features seen in these tissues, all linked with extreme physical, emotional, and spiritual suffering in broader, non-medical terms.
我们知道，这四个神迹中鉴定出的心脏组织来自 一个经历极度痛苦、被剧烈痉挛折磨的心脏。 We know that the cardiac tissue identified in these four miracles came from a heart that was experiencing terrible suffering, gripped by wrenching spasms.
我们刚才描述的病理图像是应激性心肌病，解剖病理学家几十年来在飞机失 事受害者、暴力殴打致死者以及中风或窒息死亡者身上都发现过这种情况。 The pathological picture we just described is that of stress-induced cardiomyopathy, which anatomical pathologists have identified for many decades in victims of plane crashes, or murders after violent beating, and in deaths by stroke or suffocation.
因此，所有这些情况都是指一个原本健康的心脏，在几分钟、几小时，或极少数几天 内，遭受极强的身体压力，甚至仅是情绪压力，比如对即将死亡的恐惧或确定感。」 Hence, all those situations in which an otherwise previously healthy heart is exposed for a few minutes, hours, or rarely days, to an extremely strong physical stress, or even just an emotional one, such as the fear or certainty of imminent death."
这一切当然都与耶稣的受难和他在十字架上的死亡相符。 All of that is consistent, of course, with Jesus' passion and his death on the cross.
那么从信仰的角度来看，我们能说些什么关于圣餐神迹呢？ So what can we say about Eucharistic miracles from the faith perspective?
首先，神为什么要做这些神迹？ First, why would God do them?
为了加强人们的信心，这是神常做神迹的一个原因。 To strengthen people's faith, which is a reason God commonly does miracles.
通过做出在自然现象背景下显著突出的行动，神向我们显示他存在，并且他介入了世界。 By performing an action that stands out noticeably against the background of natural phenomena, God shows us that He exists and that He intervenes in the world.
此外，通过特别做圣餐神迹，他加强人们对基督在圣餐中真实临 在的信心，在某些情况下，比如圣饼被掉落或亵渎时发生神迹， 这也提醒我们应当对圣餐怀有敬畏，因为基督确实临在其中。 Further, by doing specifically Eucharistic miracles, He strengthens people's faith in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and in some cases, like when a host has been dropped or desecrated and a mir- and a miracle happens, it can be a reminder of the reverence we need to show the Eucharist, because Christ is really there.
之前我们谈到圣餐神迹也在非公教会中被报告，比如东正教会。 Earlier, we talked about how Eucharistic miracles are reported in non-Catholic churches, such as among the Eastern Orthodox.
神为什么会在公教会之外做圣餐神迹呢？ Why would God do Eucharistic miracles outside the Catholic Church?
因为非公教徒也需要知道这些事情。 Because non-Catholics need to know these things also.
神迹并不仅限于公教团体。 Uh, miracles aren't just confined to the Catholic community.
神爱所有人。 God loves everybody.
正如耶稣在登山宝训中所说，他使太阳照耀恶人和善人，降雨给义人和不义的人。 As Jesus says in the Sermon on the Mount, he makes the sun rise on the evil and on the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust.
所以如果某人是非公教徒且需要医治，神可能会医治他们。 So if someone's a non-Catholic and in need of healing, God may heal them.
如果圣餐神迹能帮助他们，神也可能做一个。 And if a Eucharistic miracle will help them, God may do one.
有时人们认为圣餐涉及一种时空扭曲，回到耶稣在十字架上的受难。 Sometimes people think that the Eucharist involves a kind of time warp back to Jesus' suffering on the cross.
我们讨论的圣餐神迹中显示有受苦者，这似乎支持了这种看法。 The fact that the Eucharistic miracles we've covered suggest a suffering person could support that view.
我们应该这样理解它们吗？ Is that how we should understand them?
不。 No.
教会认为圣餐使耶稣以他今天的状态临在，而今天他在天上。 Uh, the church understands that the Eucharist makes Jesus present as he is today, and today, he's in heaven.
这已经被理解了很长时间。 Uh, this has been understood for a long time.
例如，圣托马斯·阿奎那认为圣餐使耶稣的身体 临在，这身体现在在天上，而不是在十字架上。 So for example, uh, Saint Thomas Aquinas understands the Eucharist as making present the body of Jesus, which is currently in heaven, not on the cross.
你可以质疑说阿奎那生活在爱因斯坦之前，他们没有时空扭曲的概念。 Now, you could challenge this by pointing out that Aquinas lived before Albert Einstein, so they didn't have the concept of time warps.
你也可以说那只是阿奎那的神学观点，但实际上不是。 Uh, you could also challenge it and say, "Well, that's just Aquinas' theological opinion," but actually it isn't.
这是教会的正式教导。 It's an actual church teaching.
因此，1968年，圣保禄六世教宗写了一篇信仰宣言《神的子民信经》，其中写道…… Thus, in 1968, Pope Pau- uh, Pope Saint Paul VI wrote a profession of faith called The Credo of the People of God in which it states...
「主在天上荣耀的独一无二且不可分割的存在，并非被多 重化，而是通过圣事在地上许多举行弥撒的地方临在。」 "The unique and indivisible existence of the Lord, glorious in heaven, is not multiplied, but is rendered present by the sacrament in the many places on Earth where mass is celebrated."
所以不管你听到什么，圣餐并不涉及时空扭曲。 So despite what you hear, the Eucharist doesn't involve a time warp.
教会教导，只要饼和酒的外观存在，真实临在就存在， 但当它们不再看起来像饼和酒时，真实临在就消失了。 The church teaches that the real presence remains for as long as the elements appear to be bread and wine, but when they no longer look like bread and wine, the real presence ceases.
我们今天讨论的圣餐神迹中，饼和酒的外观是永久改变的。 In the Eucharistic miracles we've been considering today, the appearance of the elements permanently changes.
这是否意味着基督不再临在？ Does that mean that Christ is no longer present?
据我所知，教会对此没有明确教导，这个问题存在争议。 So far as I'm aware, the church has no teaching on this and the matter is disputed.
例如，圣托马斯·阿奎那认为基督仍然临在，尽管饼和酒不再看起来像饼和酒。 For example, Saint Thomas Aquinas holds that Christ is still present, even though the elements no longer look like bread and wine.
他在《神学大全》中写道…… In the Summa Theologiae, he writes...
「当饼和酒的尺寸保持不变时，其他偶性如形状、 颜色等发生了神迹般的变化，以致显现出肉或血。 "While the dimensions of the elements remain the same as before, there is a miraculous change wrought in the other accidents, such as shape, color, and the rest, so that flesh or blood is seen.
正如前面所说，这不是欺骗，因为这是为了表现真理，通过这神迹的显现显示基督的 身体和血确实在这圣事中，因此只要尺寸保持，基督的身体确实留在这圣事中。」 And as was said already, this is not deception, because it is done to represent the truth, namely to show by this miraculous apparition that Christ's body and blood are truly in this sacrament, and thus it is clear that as the dimensions remain, the body of Christ truly remains in this sacrament."
另一方面，这种观点并非基督教界普遍认同。 On the other hand, this view is not universally shared in the Christian community.
例如，在东正教的斯拉耶布尼克礼仪书中，有一节谈到圣餐神迹，内容是…… For example, in the Orthodox Slajebnik, uh, it contains a section dealing with Eucharistic miracles and it says...
「如果祝圣后的饼或酒出现神迹，即饼的外观变成肉，酒的外观变成血，并且这种 外观不会很快改变，也就是说饼或酒的外观没有恢复，而是保持不变，神父绝不应 领圣餐，因为这不是基督的身体和血，只是神因不信或其他原因显现的神迹。 "If after the consecration of the bread or the wine, a miracle should appear, namely that the appearance of the bread would become that of flesh, or the wine appearing as blood, and if this appearance does not change shortly, meaning if the appearance of bread or wine does not return, but remains unchanged, in no way should the priest commune, for these are not the body and blood of Christ, but simply a miracle from God manifested as a result of disbelief or other cause.
如果那曾显为肉的东西很快又变回饼，或圣杯中曾显为血的东西又变回酒——""…… If shortly that which had appeared as flesh should a- again appear to be bread, or in the chalice that which had appeared to be blood should once again appear as wine-""...
让他领受这些圣餐，完成礼仪，因为它们是真正的基督的身体和血。」 let him commune with these and so complete the service, for they are the true body and blood of Christ."
阿奎那也同意最后一点。 And Aquinas would agree with the last point.
如果外观恢复成饼和酒，那就是异象，真实临在一直存在。 If the appearances revert to those of bread and wine, it was a vision and the real presence was there the whole time.
他们不同意的是如果这种变化是持久的。 What they disagree about is if the change endures.
阿奎那认为变化的元素确实有真实临在，因为这种变化是为了表明真实临在。 Aquinas says that the changed elements do have the real presence on the grounds that the change is made to indicate the real presence.
但斯拉耶布尼克认为它们不再有真实临在，可能是因为它们不再看起来像饼和酒。 But the Slujevnik, uh, says that they no longer have the real presence, presumably on the grounds that they no longer appear to be bread and wine.
不过，据我所知，教会尚未对此作出决定，所以你可以自行判断。 However, so far as I'm aware, the church has not made a determination on this matter, so you can make up your own mind.
那么吉米，你对圣餐神迹的最终看法是什么？ So Jimmy, what's your bottom line on Eucharistic miracles?
圣餐神迹非常有趣，值得研究。 Eucharistic miracles are fascinating to study.
我们今天研究的这五个案例尤其引人入胜，因为它们都经过了科学调查，其中两个案例的血 型是AB型，五个案例都涉及难以获得的心肌组织，且其中四个似乎显示出心脏受苦的迹象 ，这对这些案例是骗局的观点提出了挑战，让我们有理由认为它们可能是真正的神迹。 Uh, the five cases we've examined today are particularly fascinating because of the scientific investigations that have been done of them, and the fact that the, uh, AB blood type of two of them, the fact that all five involve hard-to-obtain heart muscle, and the fact that four of them seem to indicate a distressed heart present challenges to the idea that these five could have been products of hoaxes, giving us reason to think that they could be genuine miracles.
不错。 Nice.
那么吉米，我们还能为听众和观众提供哪些资源？ So Jimmy, what further resources can we offer to the listeners and the viewer?
我们会提供弗兰科·塞拉菲尼博士的书《一位心脏病 专家审视耶稣：圣餐神迹背后的惊人科学》的链接。 We'll have a link to, uh, Dr. Franco Serafini's book, A Cardiologist Examines Jesus: The Stunning Science Behind Eucharistic Miracles.
我们还会提供《法蒂玛：露西亚修女亲述》的链接。 We'll also have a link to Fatima in Sister Lucia's Own Words.
还有关于圣餐神迹的文章，以及教会如何调查圣餐神迹的资料。 Uh, also articles on Eucharistic miracles and, uh, how the church investigates Eucharistic miracles.
我们会提供圣托马斯·阿奎那关于圣餐神迹的资料，包括 《神学大全》中的内容，以及斯拉耶布尼克的那段引文。 We'll have information from St. Thomas Aquinas on Eucharistic miracles, including from the Summa Theologiae, as well as that quote from the Slujevnik.
还有关于红色假单胞菌的信息，这是一种能让小麦呈现红色的细菌。 Also, information on ceratium archestins, uh, the vi- the, uh, uh, bacterium that can make wheat look red.
还有按血型划分的世界人口信息，以及保禄六世的《神的子民信经》。 Also, information on world population by blood type, and Paul VI's Credo of the People of God.
非常好。 Very nice.
那么吉米，本周有哪些神秘头条？ So Jimmy, what do we have for mysterious headlines this week?
嗯，我们这周的主题是来自太空的事物，其中之一是190 8年的通古斯事件，我们之前谈过，它发生在6月30日。 Well, uh, we have a things-from-space theme, and so one of the things that has come from space was the 1908 Tunguska event, which we talked about previously, and it happened on June 30th.
现在，6月30日被定为国际小行星日，旨在提高 人们对行星防御小行星、彗星及类似天体的意识。 So now June 30th has been named International Asteroid Day as a way of promoting awareness of the need for planetary defense against asteroids and comets and other things like that.
所以，查看链接，了解有关行星防御需求的最新信息。 So, uh, check out the link and, uh, get, uh, get, get up to speed on, uh, on the need for planetary defense.
此外，美国国会最近举行了不明飞行物听证会，我们并不是唯一关注此事的人。 Also, the US Congress recently had, um, UFO hearings, and we're not the only ones.
巴西参议院也举行了关于他们民众对不明飞行物所了解情况的听证会。 The Brazilian Senate has also now held UFO hearings about what their, uh, people have been able to figure out about UFOs.
你也可以查看那篇文章，了解那边发生了什么。 So, you can check out that article as well and learn what's been happening down there.
为明年的国际小行星日开始准备永远不嫌早，准备好你的横幅，开始装饰吧。 And it's never too early to start planning for your next International Asteroid Day next year, so get your banners and paint 'em.
是的。 Yeah.
所有这些东西。 all the things.
所以，我们很想听听你的想法。 So, uh, w- we would love to hear from you.
你对圣餐神迹有什么看法？ What are your theories about Eucharistic miracles?
你可以通过访问 sqpn.com 或吉米·阿金的神秘世界 Facebook 页面 ，发送邮件至 mysterious@sqpn.com，发推文给 @MYS_Wor ld，加入 StarQuest Discord 社区（sqpn.com/disc ord），或拨打我们的神秘反馈热线 619-738-4515 来告诉我们。 You can let us know by visiting sqpn.com or the Jimmy Akins Mysterious World Facebook page, sending an email to mysterious@sqpn.com, sending a tweet to @MYS_World, or you can join the StarQuest Discord community at sqpn.com/discord, or call our Mysterious Feedback Line at 619-738-4515.
电话号码是 619-738-4515。 That's 619-738-4515.
我要感谢 Oasis Studio Seven 的团队，为《神秘世界》制作的所有视频和动画工作。 And I wanna thank, uh, the folks from Oasis Studio Seven for all the video and animation work they do here on Mysterious World.
如果你有视频剪辑或动画制作需求，务必联系他们。 Uh, if you have any, uh, video editing needs, video animation needs, be sure to check them out.
你可以通过访问我的 YouTube 频道 youtu be.com/jimmyakin 来查看他们的作品。 And you can check out their work by going to my YouTube channel at youtube.com/jimmyakin.
我们收到了很多关于他们为节目带来附加价值的积极反馈。 We've been getting a lot of positive feedback about the, uh, added value that the video work they do brings to the program.
在 YouTube 上的时候，别忘了订阅我的频道。 And while you're at YouTube, be sure and subscribe to my channel.
我正在努力发展频道，非常感谢你点赞、评论、订阅并开启提醒铃铛，这样每当 我发布新视频，无论是《神秘世界》还是其他内容，你都能第一时间收到通知。 I'm trying to grow it, and so I'd really appreciate it if you like, comment, and subscribe, and hit the bell notification so that you always get a new video, uh, notification whenever I have a video out, whether it's Mysterious World or something else.
太棒了。 Excellent.
那么吉米，下次我们要谈什么？ So Jimmy, what are we gonna be talking about next time?
下周，我们将讨论超自然现象中的影子人。 Next week, we're going to be talking about the paranormal phenomenon of shadow people.
人们报告说看到模糊的影子形象，有时是在眼角余光，有时是清晰可见。 Uh, people have been reporting seeing dim, shadowy figures, sometimes out of the corner of their eye, sometimes full-on.
所以我们将探讨影子人的报告、可能的成因以及它们为何出现。 Uh, so we'll be looking at reports of shadow people, what may be responsible for them, and why they appear.
太好了。 Excellent.
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你可以在节目笔记 mysterious.fm/220 中找到我们讨论的吉米资源链接和那些神秘头条的链接。 You'll find links to Jimmy's resources from our discussion and links to those mysterious headlines on our show notes at mysterious.fm/220.
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下次再见，吉米·阿金，感谢你与我们一起解读这个神秘世界。 Until next time, Jimmy Akin, thank you for explaining with us our mysterious world.
谢谢你，多姆。 Thanks, Dom.
我还是多姆·贝蒂内利。 And once again, I'm Dom Bettinelli.
感谢收听星际探索的《吉米·阿金的神秘世界》。 Thank you for listening to Jimmy Akins Mysterious World on StarQuest.