- start: 0.14
  end: 0.699
  speaker: casey
  en: Hey, everyone.
  zh: 大家好。
- start: 0.699
  end: 2.659
  speaker: casey
  en: Welcome or welcome back to Truth Unites.
  zh: 欢迎来到「真理使人合一」，不管是新来的还是老朋友。
- start: 2.659
  end: 8.06
  speaker: casey
  en: Truth Unites is a place for theology and apologetics done in an irenic way, which means aiming for peace.
  zh: 「真理使人合一」是一个以和平为目标，进行神学和护教工作的平台。
- start: 8.06
  end: 10.759
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'm really excited to be talking with Trent Horn.
  zh: 我很高兴能和特伦特·霍恩对话。
- start: 10.759
  end: 12.219
  speaker: casey
  en: We're gonna talk about baptism.
  zh: 我们要谈论洗礼。
- start: 12.219
  end: 17.219
  speaker: casey
  en: Trent is a Catholic apologist and speaker and author of many books.
  zh: 特伦特是一位公教会的护教者、演说家和多本著作的作者。
- start: 17.219
  end: 18.979
  speaker: casey
  en: So, Trent, thanks for doing this.
  zh: 特伦特，感谢你参与这次对话。
- start: 18.979
  end: 19.619
  speaker: casey
  en: How you doing today?
  zh: 今天感觉如何？
- start: 19.619
  end: 21.379
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm doing well.
  zh: 我感觉很好。
- start: 21.379
  end: 27.799
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's really cool to be able to finally dialogue with you in person, because I mean, I've seen a lot of your work.
  zh: 能够终于和你面对面对话真是太好了，因为我看过你很多的作品。
- start: 27.799
  end: 29.939
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I've engaged some of your work on my channel.
  zh: 我在我的频道上讨论过你的一些作品。
- start: 29.939
  end: 32.96
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You've engaged some of my work on your channel.
  zh: 你也在你的频道上讨论过我的一些作品。
- start: 32.96
  end: 34.779
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so, I, I...
  zh: 所以，我，我……
- start: 34.779
  end: 35.739
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Which I think is great.
  zh: 我觉得这很好。
- start: 35.739
  end: 44.939
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I'm also a big fan of people just being able to sit down across from one another, even if it's virtual, to hash out their theological differences.
  zh: 但我也很赞赏人们能够面对面坐下来，即使是通过网络，来讨论他们的神学分歧。
- start: 44.939
  end: 49.739
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And that's something I always really appreciate about the work that you do, because there are...
  zh: 这是我一直很欣赏你所做工作的一点，因为有……
- start: 49.739
  end: 63.159
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Frankly, I have a hard time both with non-Catholic and Catholic speakers who make pretty big theological claims, but then aren't willing to back them up in dialogue with others.
  zh: 坦白说，我对那些非公教和公教的演说者都感到困扰，他们提出重大的神学主张，却不愿意在对话中为这些主张辩护。
- start: 63.159
  end: 66.039
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I'm always appreciative to see people who are willing to do that.
  zh: 所以我一直很感激看到愿意这样做的人。
- start: 66.239
  end: 66.839
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, totally.
  zh: 是的，完全同意。
- start: 66.839
  end: 67.079
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 67.079
  end: 74.179
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, dialogue is helpful, especially when it's done in a spirit where we're truly trying to understand the other side and not in a triumphalist way.
  zh: 是的，对话是有帮助的，特别是当我们真诚地试图理解对方，而不是以胜利者的姿态进行对话时。
- start: 74.179
  end: 77.599
  speaker: casey
  en: And I know that this conversation will be like that, so I'm really excited for this.
  zh: 我知道这次对话会是这样的，所以我真的很期待。
- start: 77.599
  end: 80.979
  speaker: casey
  en: So, maybe I'll just share the backlog that brings us to this video-
  zh: 所以，也许我先分享一下是什么背景促成了这个视频——
- start: 80.979
  end: 80.999
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 80.999
  end: 87.279
  speaker: casey
  en: in case someone has clicked up on it and doesn't have any prior awareness.
  zh: 以防有人点进来看却不了解之前的情况。
- start: 87.279
  end: 96.679
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I had put out a video offering some responses to common arguments for baptismal regeneration, and then you offered a video response to that.
  zh: 我发布了一个视频，回应了一些关于洗礼重生的常见论点，然后你对那个视频做了回应。
- start: 96.679
  end: 98.979
  speaker: casey
  en: I offered a video response to your video.
  zh: 我又对你的视频做了回应。
- start: 98.979
  end: 101.579
  speaker: casey
  en: So, like you say, it's good to find that we're actually connecting.
  zh: 就像你说的，很高兴我们能真正地交流。
- start: 101.579
  end: 101.819
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Oh, I...
  zh: 哦，我……
- start: 101.819
  end: 102.499
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I have a...
  zh: 好吧，我有一个……
- start: 102.499
  end: 103.339
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, I have a rule.
  zh: 是的，我有一个规则。
- start: 103.339
  end: 107.219
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So yeah, you did a response to my response.
  zh: 是的，你对我的回应做了回应。
- start: 107.219
  end: 108.259
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and it was...
  zh: 而且是……
- start: 108.259
  end: 110.319
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You offered actually a series of questions.
  zh: 你提出了一系列问题。
- start: 110.319
  end: 111.219
  speaker: casey
  en: Exactly.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 111.219
  end: 115.279
  speaker: casey
  en: So there were six questions in there that basically I thought a good frame.
  zh: 里面有六个问题，我认为是一个很好的框架。
- start: 115.279
  end: 123.219
  speaker: casey
  en: Now, I'm fine if we go onto rabbit trails, but I thought a good at least effort or starting point would be just to kind of work through some of those questions.
  zh: 我们当然可以讨论其他话题，但我觉得至少可以先尝试讨论这些问题作为开始。
- start: 123.219
  end: 128.139
  speaker: casey
  en: But I also mentioned it might be good to start with definitions.
  zh: 但我也提到，从定义开始可能会更好。
- start: 128.139
  end: 128.219
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 128.219
  end: 136.739
  speaker: casey
  en: I've found that it can save us time later on if we just very clearly explain what do we mean when we use a word like regeneration or a word like baptism.
  zh: 我发现如果我们能清楚地解释当我们使用「重生」或「洗礼」这样的词时是什么意思，可以为我们后面节省时间。
- start: 136.739
  end: 141.419
  speaker: casey
  en: And I just want to say one quick thing before we dive in, and that's for viewers of my channel.
  zh: 在我们开始之前，我想对我的频道观众说一件事。
- start: 141.419
  end: 143.939
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm gonna be taking the month of May...
  zh: 我要在五月份……
- start: 143.939
  end: 147.219
  speaker: casey
  en: So, we're recording this toward the end of April 2022.
  zh: 我们现在是在2022年4月底录制。
- start: 147.219
  end: 150.879
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm going to be taking the month of May off, completely off from YouTube.
  zh: 我要在五月份完全离开YouTube休息一个月。
- start: 150.879
  end: 156.639
  speaker: casey
  en: So, this will be my last video for a month, and then I'll have a live stream on June 3rd, a Q&A.
  zh: 所以，这将是我一个月内的最后一个视频，然后我会在6月3日进行一场问答直播。
- start: 156.639
  end: 160.499
  speaker: casey
  en: So, just so people know if they don't see videos, that's why, and I'll be back in June.
  zh: 所以，如果大家看不到视频，这就是原因，我会在六月回来。
- start: 160.499
  end: 164.619
  speaker: casey
  en: And don't forget to subscribe to the channel and like the video and share this.
  zh: 别忘了订阅频道，点赞视频并分享。
- start: 164.619
  end: 165.999
  speaker: casey
  en: That will be helpful for both of us too.
  zh: 这对我们两个都会有帮助。
- start: 165.999
  end: 170.519
  speaker: casey
  en: So, do you want to go first on maybe just giving a definition of what you mean by...
  zh: 你想先开始定义
- start: 170.519
  end: 173.899
  speaker: casey
  en: with the words baptism or regeneration or either of those words separately?
  zh: 你对「洗礼」或「重生」这些词的理解，或者分别谈谈这两个词？
- start: 173.899
  end: 175.439
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 175.439
  end: 178.219
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I think the general idea here is that baptism...
  zh: 我想这里的基本概念是洗礼
- start: 178.219
  end: 182.459
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I guess I should start with regeneration, because that's the more fundamental concept.
  zh: 我想我应该先从重生开始，因为这是更基本的概念。
- start: 182.459
  end: 202.279
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, by regeneration, I would mean the moment when an individual becomes an adopted son or daughter of God and is given sanctifying grace to cleanse them from original sin and from any personal sins they may have committed.
  zh: 对我来说，重生是指一个人成为神的养子或养女的那一刻，并获得使人成圣的恩典，洗净他们的原罪和他们可能犯下的任何本罪。
- start: 202.279
  end: 221.739
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, regeneration is just when you go from spiritual death to spiritual life, from being alienated from God to being spiritually adopted by God, and the stain of original sin is removed and any punishments related to sin, temporal or eternal, are removed in regeneration.
  zh: 所以，重生就是从灵性的死亡转向灵性的生命，从与神疏离到被神在灵性上收养，原罪的污点被除去，与罪相关的惩罚，无论是今世的还是永恒的，都在重生中被除去。
- start: 221.739
  end: 233.059
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And the sacrament that confers that would be baptism, baptism being the use of water and the baptismal formula to do as a church intends, to cleanse someone of sin.
  zh: 而赐予这些的圣事就是洗礼，洗礼是使用水和洗礼程式，按照教会的意向来洗净人的罪。
- start: 233.059
  end: 234.019
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I guess that...
  zh: 所以，我想……
- start: 234.019
  end: 235.399
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's all thrown out there, I guess.
  zh: 这些就是我要说的。
- start: 235.399
  end: 236.159
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 236.159
  end: 236.879
  speaker: casey
  en: No, that's helpful.
  zh: 这很有帮助。
- start: 236.879
  end: 239.419
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'll just share my definitions.
  zh: 我也来分享我的定义。
- start: 239.419
  end: 246.299
  speaker: casey
  en: Again, I found this helpful because sometimes people assume that I have a lower view of baptism than I do because I'm a Baptist minister.
  zh: 我发现这很有帮助，因为有时人们会因为我是浸信会牧师就认为我对洗礼的看法比实际更轻视。
- start: 246.299
  end: 248.099
  speaker: casey
  en: But I would define...
  zh: 但我会这样定义……
- start: 248.099
  end: 250.559
  speaker: casey
  en: And I think my definition here will speak to that.
  zh: 我想我的定义会说明这一点。
- start: 250.559
  end: 259.939
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I would define regeneration as the initial act of being made alive to God, when one passes from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life.
  zh: 我会将重生定义为使人在神面前活过来的最初行动，当一个人从灵性死亡的状态转向灵性生命的状态。
- start: 259.939
  end: 269.879
  speaker: casey
  en: And if people would like to define regeneration as a process, then I would simply say that could work, but I would just say, "Well, this is when the process starts." Okay?
  zh: 如果有人想把重生定义为一个过程，那也可以，但我只会说：「好的，这就是过程开始的时候。」
- start: 269.879
  end: 274.719
  speaker: casey
  en: So this is when you go from a state of spiritual death to spiritual life.
  zh: 所以这是你从灵性死亡的状态转向灵性生命的时候。
- start: 274.719
  end: 282.859
  speaker: casey
  en: For baptism, I actually find article 27 of the 39 articles of the Anglican Church to be a helpful statement.
  zh: 对于洗礼，我觉得圣公会三十九条信纲的第27条是一个很有帮助的陈述。
- start: 282.859
  end: 284.179
  speaker: casey
  en: But I, I...
  zh: 但我，我……
- start: 284.179
  end: 286.899
  speaker: casey
  en: Just to be brief, I'll just say two things.
  zh: 简单来说，我只说两点。
- start: 286.899
  end: 290.919
  speaker: casey
  en: One is I do understand baptism to be more than just a symbol.
  zh: 第一，我确实认为洗礼不仅仅是一个象征。
- start: 290.919
  end: 299.839
  speaker: casey
  en: Sometimes Baptist views are characterized in this way where it's the options are either baptism or regeneration, or it's just a sign.
  zh: 有时浸信会的观点被描述为要么是洗礼带来重生，要么就只是一个记号。
- start: 299.839
  end: 304.919
  speaker: casey
  en: And I would want to make clear that I understand baptism to give grace.
  zh: 我想明确表示，我理解洗礼是赐予恩典的。
- start: 304.919
  end: 308.279
  speaker: casey
  en: I understand God to be the one working through baptism.
  zh: 我理解是神通过洗礼在工作。
- start: 308.279
  end: 311.519
  speaker: casey
  en: I've gone on and on about this in other videos.
  zh: 我在其他视频中已经详细讨论过这个问题。
- start: 311.519
  end: 319.219
  speaker: casey
  en: So, just to summarize, I've used the language of sign and seal, common in the reform tradition for what God is doing in baptism.
  zh: 总的来说，我用改革宗传统中常见的「记号和印证」这样的语言来描述神在洗礼中所做的事。
- start: 319.219
  end: 324.999
  speaker: casey
  en: What I would say is I just don't understand it to be the cause of regeneration.
  zh: 我要说的是，我只是不认为它是重生的原因。
- start: 324.999
  end: 328.099
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't understand it to be what makes someone alive to God.
  zh: 我不认为它是使人在神面前活过来的原因。
- start: 328.099
  end: 330.799
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'll just say one word about metonymy.
  zh: 我要简单说一下转喻。
- start: 330.799
  end: 336.859
  speaker: casey
  en: This is the word I've used to describe, you know, then how do we understand it when the scriptures speak of baptism as saving?
  zh: 这是我用来解释我们如何理解圣经说洗礼能救人的词。
- start: 336.859
  end: 340.559
  speaker: casey
  en: And I would say it's kind of like when we say the blood of Jesus saves.
  zh: 我会说这就像我们说耶稣的血能救人一样。
- start: 340.559
  end: 343.179
  speaker: casey
  en: We don't mean the blood as distinct from the flesh.
  zh: 我们不是说血与肉分开来说。
- start: 343.179
  end: 354.919
  speaker: casey
  en: Similarly, when we say baptism saves, we don't mean baptism as distinct from those events that lead up to it, but we mean baptism in its symbolic and kind of representative character.
  zh: 同样，当我们说洗礼能救人时，我们不是说洗礼与导致它的事件分开，而是指洗礼在其象征性和代表性的特征中的意义。
- start: 354.919
  end: 358.999
  speaker: casey
  en: Kind of like I've used the metaphor of a coronation service for a monarch.
  zh: 就像我用过君主加冕仪式的比喻。
- start: 358.999
  end: 369.039
  speaker: casey
  en: This is not technically the cause of when they become the monarch, but it's the kind of formal, visible, public expression of that and can be spoken of as such.
  zh: 这在技术上并不是他们成为君主的原因，但它是那个时刻的正式、可见、公开的表达，可以这样来说。
- start: 369.039
  end: 371.879
  speaker: casey
  en: So though all that is just to try to clarify what my view is.
  zh: 所以这些都是为了说明我的观点。
- start: 371.879
  end: 374.239
  speaker: casey
  en: So, the first question we were gonna talk-
  zh: 所以，我们要讨论的第一个问题——
- start: 374.239
  end: 374.739
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Oh, could I get just-
  zh: 我能请你——
- start: 374.739
  end: 374.999
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes, please.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 374.999
  end: 375.019
  speaker: casey
  en: Go ahead.
  zh: 请说。
- start: 375.019
  end: 375.019
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 375.019
  end: 376.419
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: a quick clarification on your view?
  zh: 简单澄清一下你的观点？
- start: 376.419
  end: 390.259
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I know these words mean different things to different people, but under your view, does baptism justify, sanctify, or maybe a combination of both?
  zh: 我知道这些词对不同的人有不同的含义，但在你的观点中，洗礼是使人称义，使人成圣，还是两者都有？
- start: 390.259
  end: 393.479
  speaker: casey
  en: I understand justification.
  zh: 我理解称义。
- start: 393.479
  end: 399.739
  speaker: casey
  en: I use that in a typical Protestant sense to be that initial act of being declared righteous in God's sight.
  zh: 我用典型的新教意义来理解，就是在神面前被宣告为义的最初行动。
- start: 399.739
  end: 401.939
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I wouldn't say that baptism justifies.
  zh: 所以，我不会说洗礼使人称义。
- start: 401.939
  end: 402.259
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 402.259
  end: 409.319
  speaker: casey
  en: I would say that we can speak of God communicating grace through baptism, which would include forgiveness.
  zh: 我会说我们可以说神通过洗礼传递恩典，这包括赦罪。
- start: 409.319
  end: 412.639
  speaker: casey
  en: So, there's ongoing forgiveness in the Christian life.
  zh: 所以，在基督徒的生命中有持续的赦罪。
- start: 412.639
  end: 419.559
  speaker: casey
  en: But I follow typical Protestant language in thinking of the word justification per se is that initial-
  zh: 但我遵循典型的新教用语，认为称义这个词本身是指那个最初的——
- start: 419.559
  end: 419.799
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 419.799
  end: 420.099
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 420.099
  end: 423.179
  speaker: casey
  en: transfer of status legally before God.
  zh: 在神面前法律地位的转变。
- start: 423.179
  end: 426.159
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, maybe it might fall under what we might call s-...
  zh: 所以，也许它更属于我们所说的成……
- start: 426.159
  end: 428.219
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because you talk about a communicating grace, do-
  zh: 因为你说到传递恩典，是不是——
- start: 428.219
  end: 431.339
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: being more than a symbol, would that be more like sanctifying?
  zh: 更像是成圣？
- start: 431.339
  end: 434.119
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes, it would be in that bucket.
  zh: 是的，它属于那个范畴。
- start: 434.119
  end: 435.099
  speaker: casey
  en: And you know the...
  zh: 你知道那个……
- start: 435.099
  end: 436.639
  speaker: casey
  en: I think I mentioned article 27.
  zh: 我想我提到过第27条。
- start: 436.639
  end: 441.619
  speaker: casey
  en: It talks about grace is increased, you know, through prayer unto God.
  zh: 它说到恩典是通过向神祷告而增加的。
- start: 441.619
  end: 442.579
  speaker: casey
  en: So, e-
  zh: 所以，呃——
- start: 442.579
  end: 445.039
  speaker: casey
  en: and I want to clarify too, I don't think that that's automatic.
  zh: 我也想说明，我不认为这是自动的。
- start: 445.039
  end: 450.599
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't think that this just, you know, anytime you baptize someone, automatically it's like this spiritual boost.
  zh: 我不认为每次给人施洗，就自动像是一个属灵的提升。
- start: 450.599
  end: 456.239
  speaker: casey
  en: I think that does depend upon receiving the sacrament worthily, which I would understand as by faith.
  zh: 我认为这确实取决于是否配得地领受圣事，我理解这就是通过信心。
- start: 456.239
  end: 461.539
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, that would mean your view would preclude infant or pedobaptism.
  zh: 那么你的观点就排除了婴儿洗礼或幼儿洗礼。
- start: 461.539
  end: 465.399
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't believe in pedobaptism.
  zh: 我不相信幼儿洗礼。
- start: 465.399
  end: 467.019
  speaker: casey
  en: That's really on other grounds.
  zh: 这实际上是基于其他理由。
- start: 467.019
  end: 468.079
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not like I...
  zh: 这不是说我……
- start: 468.079
  end: 472.779
  speaker: casey
  en: because of my view of the meaning of baptism, therefore I reject infant baptism.
  zh: 因为我对洗礼含义的理解而拒绝婴儿洗礼。
- start: 472.779
  end: 484.313
  speaker: casey
  en: But it is true theologically that, basically for ecclesiological reasons or reasons having to do with the doctrine of the church, I don't think the infant-...
  zh: 但从神学角度来说，基本上是出于教会论的原因，或是与教会教义有关的原因，我不认为婴儿……
- start: 484.313
  end: 490.433
  speaker: casey
  en: children of one or more Christian parents are to be considered members of the church from birth.
  zh: 一个或多个基督徒父母的孩子从出生就应该被视为教会的成员。
- start: 490.433
  end: 492.754
  speaker: casey
  en: I just don't see that ecclesiology, so.
  zh: 我就是不认同这种教会论。
- start: 492.754
  end: 494.553
  speaker: casey
  en: So, yes, I mean, that would be...
  zh: 所以，是的，我的意思是，那会是……
- start: 494.553
  end: 499.773
  speaker: casey
  en: And that actually is an interesting thing that I don't know if we'll get into is the relation of these two differences.
  zh: 这实际上是一个有趣的问题，我不知道我们是否会讨论这两种差异之间的关系。
- start: 499.773
  end: 514.013
  speaker: casey
  en: The question of meaning, which gets into baptismal regeneration, and the question of the subjects, which gets into credo baptism versus pedobaptism 'cause it's, you know, those are separate, but they affect one another, so it's kind of interesting.
  zh: 意义的问题涉及洗礼重生，而受洗对象的问题涉及信徒洗礼与幼儿洗礼，因为你知道，这些是分开的，但它们相互影响，所以很有趣。
- start: 514.013
  end: 519.493
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I find often what in many cases, 'cause really there are, I see kind of three views.
  zh: 我经常发现在很多情况下，因为实际上有三种观点。
- start: 519.493
  end: 529.553
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: One would be, well, I would say, I don't know anyone who believes in baptismal regeneration who doesn't also believe in pedobaptism.
  zh: 我要说，我不知道有任何相信洗礼重生却不相信幼儿洗礼的人。
- start: 529.553
  end: 532.274
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, let me try to refocus.
  zh: 好，让我试着重新聚焦。
- start: 532.274
  end: 541.733
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know, because I think most traditional proponents of baptismal regeneration see this as the cause of salvation, and so they would also apply that to infants.
  zh: 我不知道，因为我认为大多数传统的洗礼重生支持者认为这是救恩的原因，所以他们也会将其应用于婴儿。
- start: 541.733
  end: 562.673
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Then among those who do not believe in baptismal regeneration, some would be credo Baptists, others would be pedobaptists in seeing, well, while baptism does not regenerate you, it's a fitting thing to do to make someone a member of the people of God or there's other reasons that are given.
  zh: 然后在那些不相信洗礼重生的人中，有些是信徒洗礼者，其他人是幼儿洗礼者，他们认为虽然洗礼不会使你重生，但让某人成为神的子民是合适的，或者还有其他原因。
- start: 562.673
  end: 565.614
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I don't know if this makes sense to you, but I kinda see three views.
  zh: 所以我不知道这对你来说是否有意义，但我看到三种观点。
- start: 565.614
  end: 575.673
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Baptismal regeneration usually tied to pedobaptism, those who don't believe in baptismal regeneration, but are divided over pedobaptism versus credo baptism, if that makes sense.
  zh: 洗礼重生通常与幼儿洗礼相关，那些不相信洗礼重生的人，在幼儿洗礼和信徒洗礼上有分歧，如果这说得通的话。
- start: 575.673
  end: 576.913
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, it makes sense.
  zh: 是的，这说得通。
- start: 576.913
  end: 581.573
  speaker: casey
  en: I see four views, so if you kinda do two lines like this, you got...
  zh: 我看到四种观点，如果你这样画两条线，你就得到……
- start: 581.573
  end: 584.253
  speaker: casey
  en: You do have the Churches of Christ.
  zh: 你确实有基督会。
- start: 584.253
  end: 586.534
  speaker: casey
  en: Now some of them will not like...
  zh: 现在他们中有些人不会喜欢……
- start: 586.534
  end: 590.633
  speaker: casey
  en: So they'd be a credo Baptist plus baptismal regeneration.
  zh: 所以他们会是信徒洗礼加上洗礼重生。
- start: 590.633
  end: 591.873
  speaker: casey
  en: So they'd be a fourth example.
  zh: 所以他们是第四个例子。
- start: 591.873
  end: 591.893
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 591.893
  end: 592.954
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I guess, yeah, they'd be the fourth.
  zh: 是的，他们是第四个。
- start: 592.954
  end: 593.413
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, that's right.
  zh: 是的，没错。
- start: 593.413
  end: 594.033
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 594.033
  end: 594.554
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay, go ahead.
  zh: 好的，请继续。
- start: 594.554
  end: 594.653
  speaker: casey
  en: Sorry.
  zh: 抱歉。
- start: 594.653
  end: 595.253
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Then it all works.
  zh: 然后就都说得通了。
- start: 595.253
  end: 596.713
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You fill out the whole square, yeah.
  zh: 是的，你填满了整个方框。
- start: 596.713
  end: 597.373
  speaker: casey
  en: Right, yeah.
  zh: 对，是的。
- start: 597.373
  end: 600.433
  speaker: casey
  en: And it's interesting 'cause you can be all different, but I think you're right, you know.
  zh: 这很有趣，因为你可以有所有不同的观点，但我认为你说得对。
- start: 600.433
  end: 605.753
  speaker: casey
  en: Usually, it tends to be baptismal regeneration plus infant baptism.
  zh: 通常，它倾向于是洗礼重生加上婴儿洗礼。
- start: 605.753
  end: 606.873
  speaker: casey
  en: That's more common.
  zh: 这更常见。
- start: 606.873
  end: 606.893
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 606.893
  end: 609.793
  speaker: casey
  en: And then among the credo Baptists, it's more common not to affirm.
  zh: 而在信徒洗礼者中，更常见的是不认同。
- start: 609.793
  end: 610.813
  speaker: casey
  en: So that'll
  zh: 所以那会
- start: 610.813
  end: 612.393
  speaker: casey
  en: Maybe we can get into that here, but so let me...
  zh: 也许我们可以在这里讨论，但让我……
- start: 612.393
  end: 615.293
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'll try not to talk too much, I promise.
  zh: 我保证我会尽量不说太多。
- start: 615.293
  end: 618.673
  speaker: casey
  en: I'll try to give you the last word on most of these things.
  zh: 我会尽量让你在大多数问题上有最后发言权。
- start: 618.673
  end: 626.593
  speaker: casey
  en: But, 'cause I've already kind of put out these questions on my video, but so the first question I put out was, does baptism save Cornelius?
  zh: 因为我已经在我的视频中提出了这些问题，但第一个问题是，洗礼是否拯救了哥尼流？
- start: 626.593
  end: 635.053
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'll just explain it in that, you know, we were talking about Acts 10, and how it looks like Cornelius is regenerated and speaking in tongues prior to his baptism.
  zh: 我来解释一下，你知道，我们在谈论使徒行传第10章，看起来哥尼流在受洗之前就重生了并说方言。
- start: 635.053
  end: 640.713
  speaker: casey
  en: And then the question comes up, is this an exception or is this more of the pattern, and those kinds of things.
  zh: 然后问题就来了，这是一个例外还是更像是一种模式，诸如此类的问题。
- start: 640.713
  end: 649.593
  speaker: casey
  en: Now either way, whether it's an exception or more of the norm, we need to understand does First Peter 3:21 apply in such a circumstance.
  zh: 无论是例外还是常态，我们都需要理解彼得前书3:21是否适用于这种情况。
- start: 649.593
  end: 654.573
  speaker: casey
  en: Even if it's a very rare exception, can we say that baptism saves Cornelius?
  zh: 即使是非常罕见的例外，我们能说洗礼拯救了哥尼流吗？
- start: 654.573
  end: 657.013
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'm just curious for your thoughts about that.
  zh: 我很想听听你的想法。
- start: 657.013
  end: 658.153
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 658.153
  end: 662.753
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So in that case, I would say that this is an exception.
  zh: 在那种情况下，我会说这是一个例外。
- start: 662.753
  end: 671.633
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I would say that Cornelius was spiritually regenerated prior to receiving baptism, and there was an important point in that happening.
  zh: 所以我会说哥尼流在接受洗礼之前就已经在灵性上重生了，这样发生是有重要原因的。
- start: 671.633
  end: 682.073
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think the language I used in my reply to you is I called it a boundary case, and I think that's actually fitting because the dispute here was about the boundary of the Kingdom of God.
  zh: 我想我在回复你时用的语言是，我称之为边界案例，我认为这实际上很恰当，因为这里的争议是关于神国的边界。
- start: 682.073
  end: 686.373
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Does one have to become a Jew first in order to become a Christian?
  zh: 一个人是否必须先成为犹太人才能成为基督徒？
- start: 686.373
  end: 699.153
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And this was to break into the Kingdom of God to say, "No, you, the Gentiles do not have to become Jews first." And to make that really clear, Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit and is spiritually regenerated prior to baptism.
  zh: 这是要打破神国的界限，说：「不，你们外邦人不必先成为犹太人。」为了让这一点非常清楚，哥尼流在受洗之前就领受了圣灵并在灵性上重生了。
- start: 699.153
  end: 700.593
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So if I had...
  zh: 所以如果我……
- start: 700.593
  end: 717.553
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But how I fit in the big picture, and we can go back and forth on this, is I would say baptism did not save Cornelius just as faith in the risen divine Christ did not save Dismas, AKA the good thief on the cross.
  zh: 但我如何把它放在大局中，我们可以来回讨论这个问题，我会说洗礼并没有拯救哥尼流，就像对复活的神圣基督的信心并没有拯救迪斯马斯，也就是十字架上的好盗贼。
- start: 717.553
  end: 723.013
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, which tradition Catholic theology traditionally his name is Saint Dismas.
  zh: 所以，在公教传统神学中，他的名字传统上是圣迪斯马斯。
- start: 723.013
  end: 736.613
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I think that in any view when you have a normative view about what is it that saves us, baptism, faith, whatever it may be, you're going to have exceptions that you have to wrestle with.
  zh: 所以我认为在任何观点中，当你对什么拯救我们有一个规范性的观点时，无论是洗礼、信心，还是其他什么，你都会遇到必须处理的例外。
- start: 736.613
  end: 740.053
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So Cornelius would be an exception to the rule for baptism.
  zh: 所以哥尼流对洗礼规则来说是一个例外。
- start: 740.053
  end: 745.013
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'd also say that Dismas is an exception for the rule of salvation by faith.
  zh: 我也会说迪斯马斯对信心得救的规则来说是一个例外。
- start: 745.013
  end: 756.333
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because here, it's very clear Jesus says, "Today you will be with me in paradise," but I find very little or no evidence that Dismas believed that Jesus was divine.
  zh: 因为在这里，耶稣很清楚地说：「今日你要同我在乐园里了」，但我发现很少或没有证据表明迪斯马斯相信耶稣是神。
- start: 756.333
  end: 758.433
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He certainly hadn't risen from the dead yet.
  zh: 他当然还没有从死里复活。
- start: 758.433
  end: 760.153
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yet he was saved.
  zh: 但他还是得救了。
- start: 760.153
  end: 763.733
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I don't think that would nullify the general requirement of faith to be saved.
  zh: 但我不认为这会否定得救所需的信心这一普遍要求。
- start: 763.733
  end: 767.273
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Similar with Cornelius.
  zh: 哥尼流的情况也是如此。
- start: 767.273
  end: 784.873
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so, yeah, so the way I look at it is that Cornelius is the only example I've seen in Acts where the Holy Spirit is received before baptism, and the reason here as Peter argues in Acts Chapter 11 is that this shows that the Gentiles are fitting recipients of baptism.
  zh: 所以，是的，我看待它的方式是，哥尼流是我在使徒行传中看到的唯一一个在受洗前领受圣灵的例子，正如彼得在使徒行传第11章所论证的，这里的原因是表明外邦人是适合接受洗礼的。
- start: 784.873
  end: 786.433
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I guess that's how I would look at it.
  zh: 所以我想这就是我的看法。
- start: 786.433
  end: 791.593
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I would say baptism did not save Cornelius, but that doesn't nullify the general rule.
  zh: 我会说洗礼并没有拯救哥尼流，但这并不否定一般规则。
- start: 791.593
  end: 791.613
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 791.613
  end: 792.893
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I guess that's my thought.
  zh: 这就是我的想法。
- start: 792.893
  end: 796.993
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, and that makes sense, and I think that's a fine position to take in terms of...
  zh: 是的，这说得通，我认为这是一个很好的立场……
- start: 796.993
  end: 802.913
  speaker: casey
  en: That's just what I'm interested in is if we see it as an exception, 'cause I know we differ on whether it's an exception or a borderline case or not.
  zh: 这就是我感兴趣的，如果我们把它看作一个例外，因为我知道我们在是否把它看作例外或边界案例上有分歧。
- start: 802.913
  end: 816.633
  speaker: casey
  en: I think I pointed out that I see this is actually kind of consistent with how baptism is functioning in Acts where it just doesn't look like you ever have the spirit poured out or any fruits of regeneration at the time of baptism.
  zh: 我认为我指出过，我看这实际上是与洗礼在使徒行传中的功能一致的，在那里你从来没有看到圣灵在洗礼时浇灌或有任何重生的果子。
- start: 816.633
  end: 819.893
  speaker: casey
  en: But either way, we've got to find a way to say...
  zh: 但无论如何，我们都必须找到一种方式来说……
- start: 819.893
  end: 823.253
  speaker: casey
  en: "'Cause the reason this is interesting to me is that there will..."
  zh: 因为这对我来说很有趣的原因是……
- start: 823.253
  end: 836.153
  speaker: casey
  en: I think baptism can be spoken of as salvific even if it's not the cause of salvation 'cause I would be fine with saying baptism saved Cornelius, and I would just mean that in the way that I think that I understand baptism more generally.
  zh: 我认为即使洗礼不是救恩的原因，也可以说它具有救恩的性质，因为我会同意说洗礼拯救了哥尼流，我只是用我更普遍理解洗礼的方式来理解这一点。
- start: 836.153
  end: 840.453
  speaker: casey
  en: But it sounds like you're saying, okay, it's just an exception, and that makes sense and that I can see that.
  zh: 但听起来你是在说，好的，这只是一个例外，这说得通，我能理解。
- start: 840.453
  end: 845.673
  speaker: casey
  en: Now I do want to say on the thief, I don't think the thief is an exception to salvation by faith.
  zh: 现在我要说说那个盗贼，我不认为盗贼是信心得救的一个例外。
- start: 845.673
  end: 847.113
  speaker: casey
  en: I think he has faith.
  zh: 我认为他有信心。
- start: 847.113
  end: 851.133
  speaker: casey
  en: He may not have faith in the divinity of Christ, though I don't think we could actually know that.
  zh: 他可能没有对基督神性的信心，虽然我认为我们实际上无法知道这一点。
- start: 851.133
  end: 852.233
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, he seems to...
  zh: 我的意思是，他似乎……
- start: 852.233
  end: 859.933
  speaker: casey
  en: The very fact that he's asking him for salvation, he says, "This man has done nothing wrong," he has some awareness of who Christ is.
  zh: 他请求救恩这个事实本身，他说「这个人没有作过一件不好的事」，他对基督是谁有某种认识。
- start: 859.933
  end: 865.053
  speaker: casey
  en: But I would say salvation by faith doesn't necessarily mean faith in the divinity of Christ, right?
  zh: 但我要说信心得救并不一定意味着对基督神性的信心，对吧？
- start: 865.053
  end: 870.013
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, I'd say Abraham had faith, but he lived way before the incarnation.
  zh: 我的意思是，我会说亚伯拉罕有信心，但他活在道成肉身之前很久。
- start: 870.013
  end: 874.133
  speaker: casey
  en: So I don't see that as an exception, but I would grant there are other cases that are exceptions.
  zh: 所以我不认为那是一个例外，但我承认有其他的例外情况。
- start: 874.133
  end: 877.673
  speaker: casey
  en: So I would grant that God can save infants, for example.
  zh: 所以我承认神可以拯救婴儿，例如。
- start: 877.673
  end: 880.093
  speaker: casey
  en: That's something we might get into as well.
  zh: 这也是我们可能会讨论的。
- start: 880.093
  end: 881.313
  speaker: casey
  en: Go ahead.
  zh: 请说。
- start: 881.313
  end: 897.633
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I think you would say that within the new covenant economy that we have now, when you say salvation by faith, I think you would say that that would include belief in Jesus' divinity and resurrection.
  zh: 但我认为你会说在我们现在的新约经济中，当你说信心得救时，我认为你会说这包括相信耶稣的神性和复活。
- start: 897.633
  end: 907.013
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, for example, I don't think you would consider the faith that Jehovah's Witnesses have in Jesus to be the sufficient kind or the kind of faith you're talking about.
  zh: 比如，我不认为你会认为耶和华见证人对耶稣的信心是足够的或是你所说的那种信心。
- start: 907.013
  end: 907.913
  speaker: casey
  en: Correct.
  zh: 正确。
- start: 907.913
  end: 921.753
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right, so what I'm saying is that when I look at Dismas, I mean, it's possible his faith, even if it was, even if Jesus was more than just a prophet, it might be at the level of what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe about Jesus.
  zh: 对，所以我要说的是，当我看迪斯马斯时，我的意思是，即使他的信心，即使耶稣不仅仅是一个先知，也可能只是在耶和华见证人对耶稣的信仰水平。
- start: 921.753
  end: 930.213
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Dismas saw that Jesus was this highest creation of God sent to us to have faith in.
  zh: 迪斯马斯看到耶稣是神最高的创造，被差遣到我们这里来让我们相信。
- start: 930.213
  end: 939.213
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't think we're gonna find Chalcedonian christology there, but that's okay because that was under the old covenant economy before the resurrection.
  zh: 我认为我们在那里找不到迦克墩的基督论，但这没关系，因为那是在复活前的旧约经济下。
- start: 939.213
  end: 942.773
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Once again, I think both sides will have exceptions they have to deal with.
  zh: 再说一次，我认为双方都会有需要处理的例外情况。
- start: 942.773
  end: 943.613
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 943.613
  end: 947.433
  speaker: casey
  en: I worry about it, you know, we've talked a lot about arguments from silence.
  zh: 我担心，你知道，我们谈了很多从沉默中推论的论证。
- start: 947.433
  end: 956.353
  speaker: casey
  en: I worry about an argument from silence in the conclusion that the thief didn't understand the divinity of Christ because I just don't know how we could know that.
  zh: 我担心从沉默中推论出盗贼不理解基督的神性，因为我不知道我们怎么能知道这一点。
- start: 956.353
  end: 960.453
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, we, everything that we know about him comes in, like, four verses.
  zh: 我的意思是，我们对他的所有了解都来自大约四节经文。
- start: 960.453
  end: 973.483
  speaker: casey
  en: And he does say, you know, right before then, people are saying, "Isn't this man the Messiah?" So that's right out in there, is Jesus the Messiah, and then he also says, "When you come in your kingdom."
  zh: 而且他确实说，你知道，就在那之前，人们在说：「这个人不是弥赛亚吗？」所以这就摆在那里，耶稣是不是弥赛亚，然后他还说：「你来临你的国的时候。」
- start: 973.483
  end: 973.644
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 973.644
  end: 979.364
  speaker: casey
  en: Now, I think it's totally plausible that that could indicate a kind of Daniel 7 awareness.
  zh: 现在，我认为这完全可能表明他对但以理书第7章有某种认识。
- start: 979.364
  end: 982.003
  speaker: casey
  en: Of course, maybe not fully fleshed out, but-
  zh: 当然，可能没有完全展开，但是——
- start: 982.003
  end: 982.383
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 982.383
  end: 986.463
  speaker: casey
  en: So I don't know whether his views on the divinity of...
  zh: 所以我不知道他对神性的看法……
- start: 986.463
  end: 987.903
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't think I can speak to that.
  zh: 我认为我不能对此发表意见。
- start: 987.903
  end: 994.843
  speaker: casey
  en: But I'm happy to just acknowledge the more general point, that whatever we think is the cause of salvation, I think both of us could say there are exceptions to that.
  zh: 但我很乐意承认更普遍的观点，无论我们认为什么是救恩的原因，我认为我们两个都可以说存在例外。
- start: 994.843
  end: 995.103
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 995.103
  end: 996.103
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah-
  zh: 是的——
- start: 996.103
  end: 996.144
  speaker: casey
  en: "-"
  zh: ——
- start: 996.144
  end: 1022.663
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And, but I think it's also important, and I think you brought this up in your reply a little bit, that I do believe Cornelius is a true genuine exception because while there are other cases where, in Acts, the Holy Spirit is received, there is a description of the Holy Spirit being received apart from baptism, like with, in Acts 19 or Acts 8, like, Philip baptizes, Philip being a deacon, but then, who is it?
  zh: 而且，但我认为这也很重要，我想你在你的回复中也提到了这一点，我确实相信哥尼流是一个真正的例外，因为虽然在使徒行传中还有其他情况下圣灵被领受，有描述在洗礼之外领受圣灵的情况，比如在使徒行传19章或使徒行传8章，腓利施洗，腓利是执事，但然后是谁呢？
- start: 1022.663
  end: 1031.423
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: John and Peter maybe going and laying on hands, to r- for the Holy Spirit to fall on people who had been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
  zh: 可能是约翰和彼得去按手，让圣灵降在那些已经奉主耶稣的名受洗的人身上。
- start: 1031.423
  end: 1037.063
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Understanding what those passages do not show that they...
  zh: 理解这些经文并不表明他们……
- start: 1037.063
  end: 1043.164
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They do not say the Holy Spirit was not given in baptism, but in Catholic theology, we would say the Holy Spirit is given...
  zh: 他们并没有说圣灵不是在洗礼中赐下的，但在公教神学中，我们会说圣灵是……
- start: 1043.164
  end: 1047.224
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "There are three sacraments of initiation: baptism, confirmation, and communion."
  zh: 有三个入门圣事：洗礼、坚振和圣餐。
- start: 1047.224
  end: 1055.243
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So there, we would see the tradition of the laying on of hands or confirmation as bringing the fullness of initiation.
  zh: 所以在那里，我们会看到按手或坚振的传统是带来入门的完满。
- start: 1055.243
  end: 1063.043
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it's only the case with Cornelius where we have a description of the Holy Spirit be- temporally prior to baptism.
  zh: 但只有在哥尼流的情况下，我们看到圣灵在时间上先于洗礼的描述。
- start: 1063.043
  end: 1064.743
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Everywhere else, it's always after.
  zh: 在其他所有地方，都是在之后。
- start: 1064.743
  end: 1066.084
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1066.084
  end: 1070.183
  speaker: casey
  en: And that gets to my where I define regeneration, is if you have some kind of process.
  zh: 这就涉及到我如何定义重生，如果你有某种过程的话。
- start: 1070.183
  end: 1074.063
  speaker: casey
  en: When I, what I mean to oppose my view to is the start.
  zh: 当我说要反对我的观点时，指的是开始的时候。
- start: 1074.063
  end: 1083.903
  speaker: casey
  en: This is where it, you, in other words, what I'm intending to say I don't think this is correct is that baptism is when one comes spiritually alive to God.
  zh: 换句话说，我想说我认为不正确的是，洗礼就是一个人在神面前灵性活过来的时候。
- start: 1083.903
  end: 1089.884
  speaker: casey
  en: So we can maybe work through some of these cases and kind of kick it around, but let me ask you this, because-
  zh: 所以我们也许可以研究这些案例并讨论一下，但让我问你这个，因为
- start: 1089.884
  end: 1090.323
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1090.323
  end: 1090.544
  speaker: casey
  en: We
  zh: 我们
- start: 1090.544
  end: 1095.003
  speaker: casey
  en: So if we're saying there's exceptions, here, I mean, let me start with a real practical question.
  zh: 所以如果我们说有例外，在这里，我的意思是，让我从一个实际的问题开始。
- start: 1095.003
  end: 1099.503
  speaker: casey
  en: This is another question I asked, is, what do you think I should interpret from-
  zh: 这是我问的另一个问题，就是，你认为我应该如何理解——
- start: 1099.503
  end: 1100.603
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Jumping ahead.
  zh: 先往前跳。
- start: 1100.603
  end: 1102.083
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I was excited about this question.
  zh: 我对这个问题很兴奋。
- start: 1102.083
  end: 1102.663
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I wanted to get...
  zh: 我想得到……
- start: 1102.663
  end: 1104.023
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Now we're getting to it.
  zh: 现在我们说到这个了。
- start: 1104.023
  end: 1104.103
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1104.103
  end: 1106.303
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, this is, yeah, and me too, 'cause it's so practical.
  zh: 是的，我也是，因为这很实际。
- start: 1106.303
  end: 1111.643
  speaker: casey
  en: It's like I see a lot of Corneliuses in my ministry, and just in my life.
  zh: 就像我在我的事工中，在我的生活中看到很多像哥尼流这样的人。
- start: 1111.643
  end: 1121.543
  speaker: casey
  en: And I see a lot that, like, as an example, you know, someone is into witchcraft, okay?
  zh: 我看到很多这样的例子，比如说，有人在从事巫术，好吗？
- start: 1121.543
  end: 1122.863
  speaker: casey
  en: They hear the Gospel.
  zh: 他们听到福音。
- start: 1122.863
  end: 1124.003
  speaker: casey
  en: They
  zh: 他们
- start: 1124.003
  end: 1126.083
  speaker: casey
  en: God quickens their heart, awakens their heart.
  zh: 神使他们的心苏醒，唤醒他们的心。
- start: 1126.083
  end: 1128.503
  speaker: casey
  en: They are thoroughly convicted by the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 他们被圣灵完全说服。
- start: 1128.503
  end: 1129.743
  speaker: casey
  en: They realize this is wrong.
  zh: 他们意识到这是错的。
- start: 1129.743
  end: 1131.443
  speaker: casey
  en: They exercise faith in Christ.
  zh: 他们在基督里操练信心。
- start: 1131.443
  end: 1132.303
  speaker: casey
  en: They turn away from that.
  zh: 他们远离那些。
- start: 1132.303
  end: 1133.563
  speaker: casey
  en: They get rid of that completely.
  zh: 他们完全摆脱那些。
- start: 1133.563
  end: 1135.283
  speaker: casey
  en: Their life is completely transformed.
  zh: 他们的生命完全改变了。
- start: 1135.283
  end: 1137.163
  speaker: casey
  en: Now they're in a catechetical process.
  zh: 现在他们在要理学习的过程中。
- start: 1137.163
  end: 1138.703
  speaker: casey
  en: Let's say it's six months long.
  zh: 假设这个过程有六个月长。
- start: 1138.703
  end: 1143.543
  speaker: casey
  en: They give all the fruits of regeneration in the catechetical process.
  zh: 他们在要理学习过程中显出所有重生的果子。
- start: 1143.543
  end: 1145.443
  speaker: casey
  en: Of course it's not an infallible judgment.
  zh: 当然这不是一个绝对无误的判断。
- start: 1145.443
  end: 1146.663
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't know their heart for sure.
  zh: 我不能确定他们的心。
- start: 1146.663
  end: 1153.963
  speaker: casey
  en: But how many times do I have to see this before I start to conclude it doesn't look like the baptism is the cause of regeneration?
  zh: 但我要看到多少次这样的情况才能开始得出结论，看起来洗礼不是重生的原因？
- start: 1153.963
  end: 1160.543
  speaker: casey
  en: It just looks like that starts at faith, and is sort of sealed and publicly expressed at baptism.
  zh: 看起来这是从信心开始的，而在洗礼时被印证并公开表达。
- start: 1160.543
  end: 1161.503
  speaker: casey
  en: So how
  zh: 所以如何
- start: 1161.503
  end: 1163.943
  speaker: casey
  en: What are your thoughts about that comment/observation?
  zh: 你对这个评论观察有什么想法？
- start: 1163.943
  end: 1165.323
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1165.323
  end: 1166.803
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I have a few thoughts on this.
  zh: 我对此有一些想法。
- start: 1166.803
  end: 1175.263
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: First, I agree with you, that especially in the case of adults, faith will precede baptism.
  zh: 首先，我同意你的观点，特别是在成年人的情况下，信心会在洗礼之前。
- start: 1175.263
  end: 1182.843
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And even in infant baptism, faith precedes in the sense that the parents seek faith for the child because they have faith.
  zh: 甚至在婴儿洗礼中，信心也是在先的，因为父母因着他们的信心为孩子寻求信心。
- start: 1182.843
  end: 1189.083
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I agree with you that there's a process and the Holy Spirit is at work in people.
  zh: 所以，我同意你的观点，这是一个过程，圣灵在人里面工作。
- start: 1189.083
  end: 1194.583
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "So in Catholic theology, we distinguish between two kinds of grace: actual grace and sanctifying grace."
  zh: 所以在公教神学中，我们区分两种恩典：实际恩典和使人成圣的恩典。
- start: 1194.583
  end: 1201.963
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, actual grace would be God moving the person towards seeking His sanctifying grace.
  zh: 所以，实际恩典就是神推动人寻求他使人成圣的恩典。
- start: 1201.963
  end: 1211.043
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So this might be the case, like when I was 17 years old, God moving me to seriously consider that Jesus is Lord, and seeking to be baptized in the Catholic faith.
  zh: 这可能就像我17岁时的情况，神推动我认真思考耶稣是主，并寻求在公教信仰中受洗。
- start: 1211.043
  end: 1218.023
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: that, I didn't do that on my own while I was spiritually dead, but God moved me towards that.
  zh: 我在灵性死亡的时候不能靠自己做到这一点，而是神推动我朝这个方向走。
- start: 1218.023
  end: 1220.523
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So it's kind of like a spiritual kick in the pants.
  zh: 所以这就像是一种属灵的推动。
- start: 1220.523
  end: 1221.163
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's a good way to...
  zh: 这是一个很好的方式……
- start: 1221.163
  end: 1223.563
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think Karl Keating, the founder of Catholic Answers, called it that.
  zh: 我想公教答案的创始人卡尔·基廷就是这么称呼它的。
- start: 1223.563
  end: 1224.503
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's not...
  zh: 这不是……
- start: 1224.503
  end: 1227.243
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It doesn't regenerate you, but it's a spiritual kick in the pants.
  zh: 它不会使你重生，但它是一种属灵的推动。
- start: 1227.243
  end: 1241.223
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The similar thing in Catholics, we believe that if you've lost the grace of justification through mortal sin, God may give you a spiritual kick in the pants, actual grace, to return to Him through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, to seek forgiveness from God.
  zh: 类似的，在公教中，我们相信如果你通过大罪失去了称义的恩典，神可能会给你一个属灵的推动，实际的恩典，让你通过和好圣事回到他那里，寻求神的宽恕。
- start: 1241.223
  end: 1247.663
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I do believe that there's a work of grace there, but it's not necessarily regeneration.
  zh: 所以我确实相信那里有恩典的工作，但不一定是重生。
- start: 1247.663
  end: 1260.483
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm skeptical that we would always be able to have a correspondence between spiritual regeneration and visible behavior.
  zh: 我怀疑我们是否总能在属灵重生和可见的行为之间建立对应关系。
- start: 1260.483
  end: 1261.323
  speaker: casey
  en: Hm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1261.323
  end: 1264.723
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think that what's going on here is that there's...
  zh: 我认为这里发生的是……
- start: 1264.723
  end: 1265.803
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's complicated.
  zh: 这很复杂。
- start: 1265.803
  end: 1270.283
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's a lot of different explanations, and I think we have to sit...
  zh: 有很多不同的解释，我认为我们必须……
- start: 1270.283
  end: 1273.563
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We have to allow those, because they also explain a lot of other things.
  zh: 我们必须接受这些，因为它们也解释了很多其他事情。
- start: 1273.563
  end: 1277.303
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So one would be the actual grace working in the person's life.
  zh: 所以一个是实际恩典在人生命中的工作。
- start: 1277.303
  end: 1296.343
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The other thing may be a natural or a psychological explanation, that the person, through their natural means, apprehends a great good, the Gospel, and so they experience a change in their behavior, the virtues of temperance, prudence, justice, fortitude.
  zh: 另一个可能是自然的或心理的解释，就是这个人通过他们的自然方式，领会到一个巨大的善，就是福音，所以他们在行为上经历改变，在节制、谨慎、公义、刚毅这些美德上。
- start: 1296.343
  end: 1297.223
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The natural virtues.
  zh: 这些自然的美德。
- start: 1297.223
  end: 1303.003
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Even faith, hope, and love are better carried out, that you recognize this.
  zh: 甚至信心、盼望和爱也更好地表现出来，你能认识到这一点。
- start: 1303.003
  end: 1307.923
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so it causes a natural change in your own virtues.
  zh: 所以它在你自己的美德中造成了自然的改变。
- start: 1307.923
  end: 1310.663
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think that these explanations are...
  zh: 我认为这些解释是……
- start: 1310.663
  end: 1314.043
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We need to really include them, because they help account for a lot of other things.
  zh: 我们真的需要包括这些，因为它们帮助解释了很多其他事情。
- start: 1314.043
  end: 1317.183
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And again, I guess here would be a few examples.
  zh: 再说一次，我想这里有几个例子。
- start: 1317.183
  end: 1325.703
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: One would be, you know, people might say to both of us, "Hey, Gavin and Trent, like, my friend got baptized in the Mormon Church."
  zh: 比如说，你知道，人们可能会对我们两个说：「嘿，加文和特伦特，比如说，我的朋友在摩门教会受洗了。」
- start: 1325.703
  end: 1325.723
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1325.723
  end: 1326.723
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And look at him.
  zh: 看看他。
- start: 1326.723
  end: 1330.983
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He's so nice, and he's just... And Mormons are super-duper nice people.
  zh: 他很好，他就是……而且摩门教徒都是超级好的人。
- start: 1330.983
  end: 1334.103
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But you and I both agree that they're not Christians.
  zh: 但你我都同意他们不是基督徒。
- start: 1334.103
  end: 1337.783
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So it's like, they could say to us, "Well, what do you...
  zh: 所以，他们可能会对我们说：「那么，你……」
- start: 1337.783
  end: 1351.083
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know, Gavin, how do you explain when I see all these people getting baptized and just the amazing change in their, you know, in their dispositions, in their faith, in their charity? I'm like, so I think there's a lot of natural psychological explanations that are going on there.
  zh: 你知道，加文，当我看到所有这些人受洗，他们的性情、信心、爱心都有惊人的改变时，你怎么解释？我觉得这里有很多自然的心理解释。
- start: 1351.083
  end: 1362.103
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Another example might be, and I guess this will relate to whether someone believes their salvation can be lost, 'cause I don't know your exact position on this, or Calvinism, which I do want to ask you about.
  zh: 另一个例子可能是，我想这会涉及到一个人是否相信他们的救恩可能失去，因为我不知道你在这个问题上的确切立场，或者加尔文主义，这是我想问你的。
- start: 1362.103
  end: 1369.363
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I was reading an article from Pew Research last year saying that 20%...
  zh: 我去年读到皮尤研究中心的一篇文章说20%……
- start: 1369.363
  end: 1370.843
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So it's not just you know
  zh: 所以这不仅仅是你知道
- start: 1370.843
  end: 1382.983
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I know you said, "Well, it may not be infallible." I'm not even sure it's a reliable judgment of spiritual regeneration, because I think Pew said that 20% of Americans are former Christians.
  zh: 我知道你说：「好吧，这可能不是无误的。」我甚至不确定这是对属灵重生的可靠判断，因为我想皮尤说20%的美国人是前基督徒。
- start: 1382.983
  end: 1386.383
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: How many of those were legitimate Christians for the first place?
  zh: 其中有多少人一开始就是真正的基督徒？
- start: 1386.383
  end: 1388.703
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know, but I'm sure a fair number.
  zh: 我不知道，但我确信有相当多的人。
- start: 1388.703
  end: 1391.623
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it co- So it seems like there's a lot of...
  zh: 但是看起来有很多……
- start: 1391.623
  end: 1396.723
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's all these. It seems like there's a lot of people who manifest these fruits, but then maybe fall away again.
  zh: 有所有这些。看起来有很多人显出这些果子，但后来可能又离开了。
- start: 1396.723
  end: 1397.823
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I don't know.
  zh: 所以我不知道。
- start: 1397.823
  end: 1398.943
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I threw out a lot out there.
  zh: 我说了很多。
- start: 1398.943
  end: 1400.123
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You can throw a lot back at me.
  zh: 你可以反过来说很多。
- start: 1400.123
  end: 1402.963
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But that's kind of what I think of when I hear this practical concern.
  zh: 但这就是我听到这个实际问题时的想法。
- start: 1402.963
  end: 1404.043
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, yeah, okay.
  zh: 是的，是的，好的。
- start: 1404.043
  end: 1404.603
  speaker: casey
  en: That's helpful.
  zh: 这很有帮助。
- start: 1404.603
  end: 1414.923
  speaker: casey
  en: So, let me give a name to the person in the scenario I mentioned about being drawn out of witchcraft, just for convenience.
  zh: 所以，让我给我提到的那个从巫术中被拉出来的人一个名字，只是为了方便。
- start: 1414.923
  end: 1419.003
  speaker: casey
  en: So let's call that person John, just hypothetically for discussion purposes.
  zh: 所以让我们叫那个人约翰，只是为了讨论的目的假设一下。
- start: 1419.003
  end: 1433.243
  speaker: casey
  en: So if we've got John and Cornelius, if I'm understanding correctly, you're saying Cornelius, it wasn't just a spiritual kick in the pants, it was true regeneration, but with John, it's not necessarily regeneration, it's more of a kick in the pants.
  zh: 所以如果我们有约翰和哥尼流，如果我理解正确的话，你是说哥尼流，这不仅仅是一个属灵的推动，而是真正的重生，但对约翰来说，这不一定是重生，更多的是一个推动。
- start: 1433.243
  end: 1438.083
  speaker: casey
  en: It's more of, you know, God's working in some way, or it could be natural psychological things.
  zh: 更多的是，你知道，神以某种方式工作，或者可能是自然的心理因素。
- start: 1438.083
  end: 1444.003
  speaker: casey
  en: But so, so if I'm understanding, these are different scenarios for you?
  zh: 但是，所以如果我理解的话，这些对你来说是不同的场景？
- start: 1444.003
  end: 1449.963
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yes, I would say so, because in Scripture, we get an explicit description of what happened.
  zh: 是的，我会这么说，因为在圣经中，我们得到了明确的描述。
- start: 1449.963
  end: 1458.249
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We have the Word of God saying that the Holy Spirit fell upon people like it did at Pentecost. We also have Cornelius speaking in tongues, for example.
  zh: 我们有神的话说圣灵降在人身上，就像在五旬节一样。我们也有哥尼流说方言的例子。
- start: 1458.249
  end: 1458.929
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1458.929
  end: 1458.95
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 1458.95
  end: 1464.53
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think you would agree that speaking in tongues is not necessary to show you've been regenerated.
  zh: 我想你会同意说方言不是显示你已经重生的必要条件。
- start: 1464.53
  end: 1464.809
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 1464.809
  end: 1466.949
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it was the example in the Cornelius case.
  zh: 但这是哥尼流案例中的例子。
- start: 1466.949
  end: 1467.229
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 1467.229
  end: 1467.63
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1467.63
  end: 1472.989
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I would just give two quick thoughts and then I'll let you speak to this any further if you want to, and we can keep moving.
  zh: 好，我只想给出两个简短的想法，然后如果你想的话，我让你继续说，我们可以继续讨论。
- start: 1472.989
  end: 1478.129
  speaker: casey
  en: One is that when I mean spiritual fruit, I am not meaning...
  zh: 第一是当我说属灵的果子时，我不是指……
- start: 1478.129
  end: 1482.009
  speaker: casey
  en: And this came up in my debate with Patrick Ramsey, Father Patrick, a little bit.
  zh: 这在我与帕特里克·拉姆齐神父的辩论中也提到过一点。
- start: 1482.009
  end: 1482.71
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1483.169
  end: 1492.21
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm meaning that word as I understand it in the New Testament, and that would be spiritual life and virtue in response to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
  zh: 我用这个词的意思是我在新约中理解的，那就是对耶稣基督福音的回应中的属灵生命和美德。
- start: 1492.21
  end: 1493.43
  speaker: casey
  en: So this is not...
  zh: 所以这不是……
- start: 1493.43
  end: 1493.949
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, he...
  zh: 你知道，他……
- start: 1493.949
  end: 1499.029
  speaker: casey
  en: We were talking there about Buddhist positive experiences, and you've mentioned Mormons having a change.
  zh: 我们在那里谈论佛教徒的积极经历，你也提到摩门教徒的改变。
- start: 1499.029
  end: 1499.509
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 1499.509
  end: 1502.009
  speaker: casey
  en: That wouldn't classify as what I mean by spiritual fruit.
  zh: 那不能归类为我所说的属灵果子。
- start: 1502.009
  end: 1509.389
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm thinking of people who, in response to the triune God through faith in Jesus Christ, their life is morally renovated.
  zh: 我想的是那些通过对耶稣基督的信心回应三位一体的神，他们的生命在道德上得到更新的人。
- start: 1509.389
  end: 1512.75
  speaker: casey
  en: And I have seen people where they're speaking in tongues.
  zh: 我也见过说方言的人。
- start: 1512.75
  end: 1513.809
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't require that.
  zh: 我不要求这个。
- start: 1513.809
  end: 1514.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Gotcha.
  zh: 明白了。
- start: 1514.029
  end: 1528.349
  speaker: casey
  en: But that does happen, where at faith rather than at baptism they are fully engaged with the Holy Spirit such that a kick in the pants, I mean, it, it...
  zh: 但这确实发生了，在信心而不是在洗礼的时候，他们完全与圣灵联系，以至于一个推动，我的意思是，它……
- start: 1528.349
  end: 1530.15
  speaker: casey
  en: I really can't accept that.
  zh: 我真的不能接受这个。
- start: 1530.15
  end: 1541.869
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't think these people I know in the catechetical process leading up to their baptism are merely, you know, sort of the Spirit's working in them but they're not regenerated yet.
  zh: 我不认为我认识的这些在要理学习过程中准备受洗的人仅仅是，你知道，圣灵在他们里面工作但他们还没有重生。
- start: 1541.869
  end: 1547.629
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's why I define regeneration as that initial being made alive to God.
  zh: 这就是为什么我把重生定义为最初在神面前活过来。
- start: 1547.629
  end: 1551.629
  speaker: casey
  en: And so, you know, and one final thing is on-
  zh: 所以，你知道，最后一件事是关于——
- start: 1552.23
  end: 1552.27
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1552.27
  end: 1552.27
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 1552.27
  end: 1560.069
  speaker: casey
  en: Matthew 7, I think Jesus does actually command us to make judgements from spiritual fruit to spiritual tree.
  zh: 马太福音第7章，我认为耶稣确实命令我们从属灵的果子判断属灵的树。
- start: 1560.069
  end: 1565.709
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, he says, "By their fruits, you will recognize them," with reference to false prophets.
  zh: 你知道，他说：「凭着他们的果子，就可以认出他们来」，这是指假先知。
- start: 1565.709
  end: 1568.969
  speaker: casey
  en: And he says, you know, "The good tree cannot produce bad fruit.
  zh: 他说：「好树不能结坏果子。」
- start: 1568.969
  end: 1585.009
  speaker: casey
  en: The bad tree cannot produce good fruit. It seems to me that his intention in teaching us to do that is that, while the judgments are not infallible, we can make reasonable judgments that the positive spiritual fruit indicates a positive spiritual tree, so to speak.
  zh: 坏树不能结好果子。在我看来，他教导我们这样做的意图是，虽然判断不是无误的，但我们可以做出合理的判断，可以说积极的属灵果子表明一棵积极的属灵树。
- start: 1585.009
  end: 1585.309
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1585.309
  end: 1585.989
  speaker: casey
  en: So I'll let you...
  zh: 所以我让你……
- start: 1585.989
  end: 1587.049
  speaker: casey
  en: If you have any final thoughts on this.
  zh: 如果你对此有任何最后的想法。
- start: 1587.049
  end: 1587.61
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, yeah.
  zh: 好的，是的。
- start: 1587.61
  end: 1590.389
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I wanna drill down just a tiny bit more.
  zh: 我想再深入一点点。
- start: 1590.389
  end: 1594.009
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So like when I hear fruit, we have to be careful what we're saying so we're not ambiguous.
  zh: 所以当我听到果子时，我们必须小心我们说的话，不要含糊不清。
- start: 1594.009
  end: 1599.67
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like traditionally in Galatians, the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, self-control.
  zh: 就像加拉太书中传统上说的，圣灵的果子是仁爱、喜乐、和平、忍耐、恩慈、温柔、节制。
- start: 1599.67
  end: 1610.61
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You admit that we can see those things in counter- in false gospels, like those purely natural virtues we see them in Buddhism, Mormonism.
  zh: 你承认我们可以在假福音中看到这些东西，就像我们在佛教、摩门教中看到的那些纯粹的自然美德。
- start: 1610.61
  end: 1611.75
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Are-
  zh: 是——
- start: 1611.75
  end: 1611.849
  speaker: casey
  en: Well-
  zh: 好——
- start: 1611.849
  end: 1612.43
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So let me
  zh: 所以让我
- start: 1612.43
  end: 1613.289
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm trying to understand.
  zh: 我试图理解。
- start: 1613.289
  end: 1613.75
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You're saying...
  zh: 你是说……
- start: 1613.75
  end: 1622.049
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Are you saying it's those behaviors in response to the authentic gospel, not just those behaviors in response to something else?
  zh: 你是说这些行为是对真实福音的回应，而不仅仅是对其他事物的回应？
- start: 1622.049
  end: 1622.889
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1622.889
  end: 1623.449
  speaker: casey
  en: That's right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 1623.449
  end: 1624.11
  speaker: casey
  en: I, and I...
  zh: 我，而且我……
- start: 1624.11
  end: 1624.289
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1624.289
  end: 1625.389
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm happy to clarify.
  zh: 我很乐意澄清。
- start: 1625.389
  end: 1625.59
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1625.59
  end: 1632.669
  speaker: casey
  en: In other words, I think that non-Christians can be loving and can be patient in a generic sense because of common grace.
  zh: 换句话说，我认为非基督徒因着普遍恩典也可以有爱心，在一般意义上也可以有耐心。
- start: 1632.669
  end: 1633.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1633.029
  end: 1639.409
  speaker: casey
  en: But when I talk about spiritual fruit, I'm envisioning these virtues truly cultivated by the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 但当我谈论属灵的果子时，我指的是这些真正由圣灵培养的美德。
- start: 1639.409
  end: 1640.969
  speaker: casey
  en: That's just how I'm using that language.
  zh: 这就是我使用这种语言的方式。
- start: 1640.969
  end: 1642.149
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1642.149
  end: 1644.809
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I guess for me that if I can see both...
  zh: 我想对我来说，如果我能看到两者……
- start: 1644.809
  end: 1655.009
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The question is so we have virtues, love, joy, peace, patience, the fruits, and also the certain beliefs.
  zh: 问题是我们有美德，爱、喜乐、和平、忍耐，这些果子，还有某些信仰。
- start: 1655.009
  end: 1662.569
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So for example, a Mormon will not believe in the Trinity, but someone you baptized believes in the Trinity and has these particular fruits.
  zh: 比如说，摩门教徒不相信三位一体，但你施洗的人相信三位一体，并有这些特定的果子。
- start: 1662.569
  end: 1667.769
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I would say that the behaviors, the natural psychological will go in both cases.
  zh: 所以我会说，这些行为，自然的心理在两种情况下都会存在。
- start: 1667.769
  end: 1669.449
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: For the...
  zh: 对于……
- start: 1669.449
  end: 1687.789
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I just worry that this is almost like begging the question, or assuming and saying, "Well, I'm talking about how do we explain these fruits in response to this particular gospel that is presented." I would say well, you know, of course they're gonna have a more fervent belief in something that they've already started believing in, in a conversion experience.
  zh: 我只是担心这几乎像是在预设问题，或者假设并说：「好吧，我在谈论我们如何解释这些果子是对所呈现的这个特定福音的回应。」我会说，你知道，当然他们会对他们在归信经历中已经开始相信的事物有更热切的信仰。
- start: 1687.789
  end: 1690.089
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But the other concern I have is...
  zh: 但我的另一个担忧是……
- start: 1690.089
  end: 1691.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Now, I'm curious to get your...
  zh: 现在，我很想知道你的……
- start: 1691.029
  end: 1692.069
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because I looked online.
  zh: 因为我在网上查过。
- start: 1692.069
  end: 1695.869
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's always weird to try to snoop out someone's theological beliefs online.
  zh: 试图在网上窥探某人的神学信仰总是很奇怪。
- start: 1695.869
  end: 1701.289
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: What is your view of Calvinism exactly?
  zh: 你对加尔文主义的确切看法是什么？
- start: 1701.289
  end: 1706.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like are you a Calvinist or not five points or you don't want to say or
  zh: 比如你是加尔文主义者还是不是五要点，或者你不想说或者
- start: 1706.029
  end: 1706.229
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1706.229
  end: 1706.409
  speaker: casey
  en: No.
  zh: 不。
- start: 1706.409
  end: 1710.809
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm a Calvinist and I've addressed that in some of my videos, but not many.
  zh: 我是加尔文主义者，我在一些视频中提到过这一点，但不多。
- start: 1710.809
  end: 1715.129
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm happy to talk about that, although I worry it might pull us a little bit off of baptism.
  zh: 我很乐意谈论这个，虽然我担心这可能会让我们稍微偏离洗礼的话题。
- start: 1715.129
  end: 1716.329
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'll try to keep a...
  zh: 我会试着保持……
- start: 1716.329
  end: 1719.389
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I promise, Your Honor, that the line of questioning is relevant.
  zh: 法官大人，我保证这条问题线索是相关的。
- start: 1719.389
  end: 1723.209
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, 'cause I saw you did a post once.
  zh: 是的，因为我看到你曾经发过一个帖子。
- start: 1723.209
  end: 1724.589
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You were asking about limited atonement.
  zh: 你在问有限的救赎。
- start: 1724.589
  end: 1725.409
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I didn't know if you...
  zh: 我不知道你是否……
- start: 1725.409
  end: 1727.189
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: if that meant you didn't believe in it or not.
  zh: 如果那意味着你不相信它还是怎样。
- start: 1727.189
  end: 1728.189
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh.
  zh: 哦。
- start: 1728.189
  end: 1729.369
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh.
  zh: 哦。
- start: 1729.369
  end: 1730.149
  speaker: casey
  en: No.
  zh: 不。
- start: 1730.149
  end: 1732.189
  speaker: casey
  en: I affirm all five points, so-
  zh: 我认同所有五点，所以——
- start: 1732.189
  end: 1732.409
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1732.409
  end: 1732.449
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1732.449
  end: 1733.909
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm trying to think of what that would have been.
  zh: 我在试图想那是什么。
- start: 1733.909
  end: 1736.909
  speaker: casey
  en: I might have just been posing a question about it or something.
  zh: 我可能只是在提出一个关于它的问题或什么的。
- start: 1736.909
  end: 1737.169
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1737.169
  end: 1737.389
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1737.389
  end: 1737.629
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I see.
  zh: 我明白了。
- start: 1737.629
  end: 1740.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "'Cause it was phrased almost as if you were asking others."
  zh: 因为它的措辞几乎像是你在问别人。
- start: 1740.489
  end: 1741.189
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1741.189
  end: 1741.789
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because
  zh: 因为
- start: 1741.789
  end: 1742.849
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So this is interesting.
  zh: 所以这很有趣。
- start: 1742.849
  end: 1744.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1744.489
  end: 1745.349
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, this is...
  zh: 好，这是……
- start: 1745.349
  end: 1746.789
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Oh, this is very interesting.
  zh: 哦，这非常有趣。
- start: 1746.789
  end: 1747.409
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: This will be helpful.
  zh: 这会有帮助的。
- start: 1747.409
  end: 1751.609
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So because then there is a concern...
  zh: 所以因为这里有一个担忧……
- start: 1751.609
  end: 1762.589
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't think it's like as rare as one may make it out to be to see someone really flourish, an adult, after conversion.
  zh: 我不认为看到一个成年人在归信后真正茁壮成长是像人们说的那样罕见。
- start: 1762.589
  end: 1764.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They receive the faith, they're baptized.
  zh: 他们接受信仰，他们受洗。
- start: 1764.489
  end: 1769.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know, you see the face, "Oh, look at this person with spiritual fruit." And then, you know, they...
  zh: 你知道，你看到那张脸，「哦，看这个人有属灵的果子。」然后，你知道，他们……
- start: 1769.489
  end: 1779.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Either they are an apostate or I guess the other concern I would have is, what do we do with someone who becomes kind of like a mediocre Christian?
  zh: 要么他们是叛教者，要么我想我另一个担忧是，我们如何对待那些成为平庸的基督徒的人？
- start: 1779.489
  end: 1786.269
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like they remain spiritually regenerated, but they live just kind of a mediocre life.
  zh: 就像他们仍然在灵性上重生了，但他们只是过着平庸的生活。
- start: 1786.269
  end: 1789.249
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like people hardly know they're Christian, but they're not apostates, right?
  zh: 就像人们几乎不知道他们是基督徒，但他们不是叛教者，对吧？
- start: 1789.249
  end: 1789.949
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They're, but they're...
  zh: 他们是，但他们是……
- start: 1789.949
  end: 1794.689
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think that's a very common individual, which is going about your day Christian.
  zh: 我认为这是一个很常见的个体，就是过着日常生活的基督徒。
- start: 1794.689
  end: 1795.429
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 1795.429
  end: 1796.309
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like they're just kind of
  zh: 就像他们只是有点
- start: 1796.309
  end: 1799.289
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They're not really on fire, but they're mediocre Christians.
  zh: 他们并不是真的很火热，但他们是平庸的基督徒。
- start: 1799.289
  end: 1799.489
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1799.489
  end: 1802.809
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So they regenerate, but they don't have those fruits any more.
  zh: 所以他们重生了，但他们不再有那些果子了。
- start: 1802.809
  end: 1804.729
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But they're still regenerate.
  zh: 但他们仍然是重生的。
- start: 1804.729
  end: 1809.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So that's why I have a hard time seeing that there's always gonna be a one-to-one correspondence.
  zh: 所以这就是为什么我很难看到总会有一对一的对应关系。
- start: 1809.029
  end: 1809.649
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I see re-
  zh: 我看到重——
- start: 1809.649
  end: 1818.849
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: To me, the sign of regeneration is just gonna be what I would say God has told us the sign will be, and that will be the sacrament of baptism.
  zh: 对我来说，重生的记号就是我要说神告诉我们的记号，那就是洗礼圣事。
- start: 1818.849
  end: 1819.889
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But
  zh: 但是
- start: 1819.889
  end: 1820.189
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1820.189
  end: 1829.069
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Do you see how that factors in with the concern that if we have a decent number of people who seem to be regenerate but then fall away, like it's not a really ...
  zh: 你看到这如何与这个担忧相关，如果我们有相当数量的人看起来重生了但后来离开了，就像这不是真的……
- start: 1829.989
  end: 1830.649
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh, I see.
  zh: 哦，我明白了。
- start: 1830.649
  end: 1830.809
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 1830.809
  end: 1832.709
  speaker: casey
  en: I think I'm tracking with what you're saying.
  zh: 我想我明白你在说什么。
- start: 1832.709
  end: 1834.649
  speaker: casey
  en: And I would agree with you that it...
  zh: 我同意你说的……
- start: 1834.649
  end: 1841.989
  speaker: casey
  en: This is a general sort of concern and question.
  zh: 这是一个普遍的担忧和问题。
- start: 1841.989
  end: 1843.849
  speaker: casey
  en: And the...
  zh: 而且……
- start: 1843.849
  end: 1849.069
  speaker: casey
  en: Kind of the way salvation plays out, it is messy, so you use the language of one-for-one correspondence.
  zh: 救恩展现的方式是混乱的，所以你用一对一对应的语言。
- start: 1849.069
  end: 1850.049
  speaker: casey
  en: I wouldn't say that.
  zh: 我不会那么说。
- start: 1850.049
  end: 1850.689
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 1850.689
  end: 1865.209
  speaker: casey
  en: It's tough to say about any specific person infallibly, but I think what I'd come back to is when you see someone, you know, a 180, okay, they go from the witchcraft to the speaking in tongues-
  zh: 对任何特定的人做出无误的判断都很难，但我想说的是当你看到某人，你知道，180度转变，好的，他们从巫术转向说方言——
- start: 1865.209
  end: 1865.469
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1865.469
  end: 1865.509
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 1865.509
  end: 1868.049
  speaker: casey
  en: why not see them like Cornelius?
  zh: 为什么不把他们看作像哥尼流？
- start: 1868.049
  end: 1873.769
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, if God can do an exception there, and I think there's other exceptions in the Book of Acts too.
  zh: 你知道，如果神在那里可以做一个例外，我认为在使徒行传中也有其他例外。
- start: 1873.769
  end: 1877.389
  speaker: casey
  en: In fact, I don't ever see it's baptism that someone comes alive to God.
  zh: 事实上，我从未看到是洗礼使人在神面前活过来。
- start: 1877.389
  end: 1883.369
  speaker: casey
  en: But just from that one alone, you know, why not see these as exceptions?
  zh: 但仅从那一个来看，你知道，为什么不把这些看作例外？
- start: 1883.369
  end: 1894.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I would just say I don't have enough, I don't have enough data, that only God would have that data because what if I do that and then in five years she's back in the witches' coven?
  zh: 我只想说我没有足够的，我没有足够的数据，只有神才有那些数据，因为如果我这样做，然后五年后她又回到女巫集会怎么办？
- start: 1894.489
  end: 1895.349
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know?
  zh: 你知道吗？
- start: 1895.349
  end: 1896.449
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And then it becomes...
  zh: 然后它就变成了……
- start: 1896.449
  end: 1896.969
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And we
  zh: 而我们
- start: 1896.969
  end: 1897.269
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I...
  zh: 而我……
- start: 1897.269
  end: 1901.969
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know, and I agree with you that I think many people do stay, but to me it's not like, oh, it's...
  zh: 你知道，我同意你的观点，我认为很多人确实留下来了，但对我来说这不像是，哦，这是……
- start: 1901.969
  end: 1902.789
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That this...
  zh: 这个……
- start: 1902.789
  end: 1905.209
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's not that it's not infallible.
  zh: 这不是说它不是无误的。
- start: 1905.209
  end: 1912.509
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I question whether this approach to gauging spiritual regeneration is even reliable.
  zh: 我质疑这种衡量属灵重生的方法是否可靠。
- start: 1912.509
  end: 1916.489
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But while we were on the Calvinism thing, I wanted to ask you-
  zh: 但当我们谈论加尔文主义时，我想问你——
- start: 1916.489
  end: 1916.509
  speaker: casey
  en: Wait.
  zh: 等等。
- start: 1916.509
  end: 1916.709
  speaker: casey
  en: Hold on.
  zh: 等一下。
- start: 1916.709
  end: 1917.029
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sorry.
  zh: 抱歉。
- start: 1917.029
  end: 1917.389
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Go ahead.
  zh: 请说。
- start: 1917.389
  end: 1918.909
  speaker: casey
  en: Just on that real quick, 'cause Calvin...
  zh: 就这个很快说一下，因为加尔文……
- start: 1918.909
  end: 1922.949
  speaker: casey
  en: I really think Calvinism is kind of a bigger animal to
  zh: 我真的认为加尔文主义是一个更大的话题
- start: 1922.949
  end: 1923.049
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It,
  zh: 它，
- start: 1923.049
  end: 1923.089
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: No.
  zh: 不。
- start: 1923.089
  end: 1923.129
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: No.
  zh: 不。
- start: 1923.129
  end: 1923.569
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I agree.
  zh: 我同意。
- start: 1923.569
  end: 1926.649
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It was on your thing about metonymy.
  zh: 是关于你说的转喻。
- start: 1926.689
  end: 1926.969
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 1926.969
  end: 1927.689
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1927.689
  end: 1928.789
  speaker: casey
  en: I was just gonna say the one...
  zh: 我只是想说那一个……
- start: 1928.789
  end: 1930.549
  speaker: casey
  en: My one quick observation is it seems like-
  zh: 我的一个快速观察是，看起来像——
- start: 1930.549
  end: 1930.629
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 1930.629
  end: 1930.769
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Go ahead.
  zh: 请说。
- start: 1930.769
  end: 1930.769
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 1930.769
  end: 1935.429
  speaker: casey
  en: Peter does make the judgment in Acts 10 that these people have received the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 彼得确实在使徒行传第10章中判断这些人已经领受了圣灵。
- start: 1935.429
  end: 1938.452
  speaker: casey
  en: I would think that, you know, Peter's-...
  zh: 我认为，你知道，彼得的——
- start: 1938.452
  end: 1941.751
  speaker: casey
  en: inference, like the Matthew 7, spiritual fruit, spiritual tree.
  zh: 推论，就像马太福音第7章，属灵的果子，属灵的树。
- start: 1941.751
  end: 1949.292
  speaker: casey
  en: The inference from speaking in tongues to they've received the Holy Spirit is the kind of inference that seems reasonable.
  zh: 从说方言推论到他们领受了圣灵，这种推论似乎是合理的。
- start: 1949.292
  end: 1951.811
  speaker: casey
  en: Not infallible but reasonable.
  zh: 不是无误的但是合理的。
- start: 1951.811
  end: 1952.371
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 1952.371
  end: 1952.991
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1952.991
  end: 1953.971
  speaker: casey
  en: So just a thought there.
  zh: 所以只是一个想法。
- start: 1953.971
  end: 1954.192
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't
  zh: 我不
- start: 1954.192
  end: 1955.271
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm sorry to interrupt you.
  zh: 抱歉打断你。
- start: 1955.271
  end: 1955.511
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: No, no.
  zh: 不，不。
- start: 1955.511
  end: 1955.951
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You're fine.
  zh: 没关系。
- start: 1955.951
  end: 1959.951
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because what you were saying about metonymy-
  zh: 因为你说的关于转喻——
- start: 1959.951
  end: 1960.092
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 1960.092
  end: 1965.311
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I guess this would play more, since you are a five-point Calvinist, this would play more into your position.
  zh: 我猜这会更多地发挥作用，因为你是五要点加尔文主义者，这会更符合你的立场。
- start: 1965.311
  end: 1977.952
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "'Cause I think there's many other Protestants who might agree with you on that baptism is not what regenerates us, but not hold the view of regeneration that I find common in Calvinism."
  zh: 因为我认为有许多其他新教徒可能同意你说洗礼不是使我们重生的东西，但不持有我在加尔文主义中常见的重生观点。
- start: 1977.952
  end: 1988.191
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because my understanding from many Calvinists is that regeneration occurs the moment before a person makes an act of faith, that a per-...
  zh: 因为我从许多加尔文主义者那里理解到，重生发生在一个人做出信心行动之前的那一刻，那一个人……
- start: 1988.191
  end: 1988.951
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, okay.
  zh: 好吧，好的。
- start: 1988.951
  end: 1990.731
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You can correct me if I'm wrong here.
  zh: 如果我说错了，你可以纠正我。
- start: 1990.731
  end: 1995.691
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: My, my understanding is that regeneration is something that God does.
  zh: 我的理解是重生是神所做的事。
- start: 1995.691
  end: 2003.691
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He unconditionally elects certain individuals, regenerates them, and that act then causes them to make an act of faith.
  zh: 他无条件地拣选某些个人，使他们重生，然后那个行动导致他们做出信心的行动。
- start: 2003.691
  end: 2009.031
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so what you're, the metonymy argument, it sounds like one could say does faith save us?
  zh: 所以你的转喻论点，听起来好像有人可以说信心拯救我们吗？
- start: 2009.031
  end: 2013.951
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And a Calvinist could say, "Well, faith saves us, but really it's God that saves us.
  zh: 而一个加尔文主义者可能会说：「好吧，信心拯救我们，但实际上是神拯救我们。
- start: 2013.951
  end: 2016.051
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Faith isn't the cause of our salvation.
  zh: 信心不是我们得救的原因。
- start: 2016.051
  end: 2021.231
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It flows from the fact that God has chosen us and regenerated us. That's been my understanding.
  zh: 它源于神已经拣选我们并使我们重生这个事实。这是我的理解。
- start: 2021.231
  end: 2025.491
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You can correct me if I'm wrong or if it doesn't apply to your theology.
  zh: 如果我说错了或者这不适用于你的神学，你可以纠正我。
- start: 2025.491
  end: 2026.211
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2026.211
  end: 2026.871
  speaker: casey
  en: This is where...
  zh: 这就是……
- start: 2026.871
  end: 2031.011
  speaker: casey
  en: So Calvinism I do feel is often misunderstood because,
  zh: 所以我确实觉得加尔文主义经常被误解，因为，
- start: 2031.011
  end: 2035.951
  speaker: casey
  en: And trying to get into this might, again, so I'll just speak to it briefly and then-
  zh: 而试图深入这个可能，再次，所以我只是简单说一下然后——
- start: 2035.951
  end: 2035.991
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2035.991
  end: 2037.531
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I won't try to go down this road too much.
  zh: 我不会试图走太远这条路。
- start: 2037.531
  end: 2043.031
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But the metonymous objection you're making, it seemed to go, like it could go in that direction also.
  zh: 但你提出的转喻反对意见，似乎也可以朝那个方向发展。
- start: 2043.031
  end: 2043.611
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2043.611
  end: 2043.991
  speaker: casey
  en: I see.
  zh: 我明白了。
- start: 2043.991
  end: 2044.891
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay, that's interesting.
  zh: 好的，这很有趣。
- start: 2044.891
  end: 2045.131
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2045.131
  end: 2046.031
  speaker: casey
  en: I think the
  zh: 我认为
- start: 2046.031
  end: 2051.291
  speaker: casey
  en: Calvinism doesn't necessarily say that, regeneration is temporally prior to faith.
  zh: 加尔文主义不一定说重生在时间上先于信心。
- start: 2051.291
  end: 2056.751
  speaker: casey
  en: The most of the time it's gonna be kind of a logical priority.
  zh: 大多数时候这是一种逻辑上的优先。
- start: 2056.951
  end: 2057.291
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 2057.291
  end: 2057.311
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2057.311
  end: 2058.071
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Subject got timeless.
  zh: 主题是永恒的。
- start: 2058.071
  end: 2058.351
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2058.351
  end: 2058.931
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 2058.931
  end: 2059.531
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2059.531
  end: 2062.771
  speaker: casey
  en: So, and, you know, so Calvinists, I, I, I...
  zh: 所以，你知道，所以加尔文主义者，我，我，我……
- start: 2062.771
  end: 2072.731
  speaker: casey
  en: My big concern with Calvinism is people misunderstand it as though we're saying God's sovereignty rather than human responsibility, i.e.
  zh: 我对加尔文主义的主要担忧是人们误解它，好像我们在说神的主权而不是人的责任，也就是说
- start: 2072.731
  end: 2075.851
  speaker: casey
  en: in this case faith, and we're just trying to say it's a both/and.
  zh: 在这种情况下是信心，我们只是想说这是两者都有的。
- start: 2075.851
  end: 2093.471
  speaker: casey
  en: We're just trying to say in this mysterious way all of this at the plane of human responsibility, the necessity of faith, is true and valid, but God's sovereignty, just as we see in other aspects of the world, God's sovereignty is mysteriously at work alongside other causes.
  zh: 我们只是想说在这种神秘的方式中，在人的责任层面上的所有这些，信心的必要性，都是真实和有效的，但神的主权，就像我们在世界其他方面看到的那样，神的主权神秘地与其他原因一起工作。
- start: 2093.471
  end: 2094.231
  speaker: casey
  en: And so that's...
  zh: 所以这就是……
- start: 2094.231
  end: 2099.171
  speaker: casey
  en: You haven't done this, but just for people watching, I just hear these descriptions of Calvinism.
  zh: 你没有这样做，但对于观看的人来说，我只是听到这些对加尔文主义的描述。
- start: 2099.171
  end: 2107.671
  speaker: casey
  en: So as though we think God just arbitrarily damns people or that you know you're not saved by faith it's just up to God and things like this.
  zh: 好像我们认为神只是任意地定人的罪，或者你知道你不是因信得救，这只是取决于神，诸如此类的事。
- start: 2107.671
  end: 2109.791
  speaker: casey
  en: And so I'm always trying to clarify those things, but,
  zh: 所以我总是试图澄清这些事情，但是，
- start: 2109.791
  end: 2110.111
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 2110.111
  end: 2118.471
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Would you, because it sounds like you would affirm this statement, baptism saves us but it is not the cause of our salvation?
  zh: 你会不会，因为听起来你会肯定这个说法，洗礼拯救我们但它不是我们得救的原因？
- start: 2118.471
  end: 2120.791
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Have I understood that phrase correctly for you?
  zh: 我对你的这个说法理解正确吗？
- start: 2120.791
  end: 2121.551
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2121.551
  end: 2122.631
  speaker: casey
  en: That's a, that,
  zh: 那是一个，那个，
- start: 2122.631
  end: 2123.131
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2123.131
  end: 2123.631
  speaker: casey
  en: Exactly.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 2123.631
  end: 2127.551
  speaker: casey
  en: A- and then if someone says, "Well, what do you mean baptism saves us and it's not the cause?
  zh: 然后如果有人说：「好吧，你说洗礼拯救我们但它不是原因是什么意思？
- start: 2127.551
  end: 2132.571
  speaker: casey
  en: How does it do it? And that's where I look to the where it's put in 1 Peter 3:21.
  zh: 它是如何做到的？这就是我看彼得前书3:21中所说的地方。
- start: 2132.571
  end: 2134.151
  speaker: casey
  en: It's as an appeal to God.
  zh: 它是向神的祈求。
- start: 2134.151
  end: 2135.571
  speaker: casey
  en: So it's not baptism.
  zh: 所以不是洗礼。
- start: 2135.571
  end: 2136.731
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not the act.
  zh: 不是这个行为。
- start: 2136.731
  end: 2141.871
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not like your sins aren't forgiven and you're not yet regenerated until you get in the water.
  zh: 不是说你的罪还没有被赦免，你还没有重生，直到你进入水中。
- start: 2141.871
  end: 2142.631
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 2142.631
  end: 2146.711
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, it's baptism as the visible expression of this larger reality.
  zh: 你知道，洗礼是这个更大现实的可见表达。
- start: 2146.711
  end: 2154.571
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Would you be willing to make the same proposition, faith saves us but faith is not the cause of our salvation?
  zh: 你愿意做出同样的命题吗，信心拯救我们但信心不是我们得救的原因？
- start: 2155.851
  end: 2160.831
  speaker: casey
  en: It would just depend upon what kind of causation we're talking about.
  zh: 这就要看我们说的是什么样的因果关系了。
- start: 2160.831
  end: 2161.071
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 2161.071
  end: 2170.311
  speaker: casey
  en: "'Cause I actually would say faith is the cause of salvation for most people, but as I say, I think God can save someone apart from faith as in the case of infants, for example."
  zh: 因为我实际上会说信心是大多数人得救的原因，但正如我说的，我认为神可以在没有信心的情况下拯救人，比如婴儿的情况。
- start: 2170.311
  end: 2172.091
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 2172.091
  end: 2172.371
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2172.371
  end: 2175.031
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's interesting here, because when I've read up on...
  zh: 这很有趣，因为当我读到……
- start: 2175.031
  end: 2177.471
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I promise not to go on the rabbit trail too far.
  zh: 我保证不会走得太远。
- start: 2177.471
  end: 2187.011
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like Calvinism and other issues here, other Calvinists have tried to make a big deal that the theological view they have is monergism-
  zh: 像加尔文主义和这里的其他问题，其他加尔文主义者试图强调他们的神学观点是独作论——
- start: 2187.011
  end: 2187.131
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2187.131
  end: 2187.431
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2187.431
  end: 2198.831
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: that it is God alone who saves and anything else that imparts to human beings being a part of salvation is some kind of invalid synergistic system of salvation.
  zh: 就是只有神拯救，任何其他赋予人类成为救恩一部分的东西都是某种无效的协同救恩系统。
- start: 2198.831
  end: 2202.651
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know if you've heard that, those two, how those are used.
  zh: 我不知道你是否听说过这两个，它们是如何使用的。
- start: 2202.651
  end: 2203.091
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Oh, but you're...
  zh: 哦，但你……
- start: 2203.091
  end: 2210.491
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You seem to have said before no man is involved as a cause in some way, maybe a secondary cause, and it's kind of mysterious how that happens.
  zh: 你似乎之前说过没有人以某种方式作为原因参与其中，也许是次要原因，而这是如何发生的有点神秘。
- start: 2210.491
  end: 2211.831
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh, certainly.
  zh: 哦，当然。
- start: 2211.831
  end: 2212.091
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2212.091
  end: 2212.471
  speaker: casey
  en: And I
  zh: 而且我
- start: 2212.471
  end: 2214.331
  speaker: casey
  en: That's my understanding of kind of mainstream...
  zh: 这是我对主流的理解……
- start: 2214.331
  end: 2218.971
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, that you do find more kind of hyper Calvinistic trajectories within the reform tradition.
  zh: 我的意思是，你确实在改革传统中发现更多的超加尔文主义轨迹。
- start: 2218.971
  end: 2224.371
  speaker: casey
  en: But, I mean, that's classic Charles Spurgeon and others who are saying it's a both/and.
  zh: 但是，我的意思是，这是查尔斯·司布真和其他人所说的两者都有。
- start: 2224.371
  end: 2227.731
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not God's sovereignty rather than human choice.
  zh: 这不是神的主权而不是人的选择。
- start: 2227.731
  end: 2229.091
  speaker: casey
  en: It's both.
  zh: 是两者都有。
- start: 2229.091
  end: 2234.391
  speaker: casey
  en: Just like in the book of Proverbs it says the die is cast, that every decision is from the Lord.
  zh: 就像箴言书中说掷骰子，每个决定都是从主来的。
- start: 2234.391
  end: 2241.751
  speaker: casey
  en: And we would say, "Well, that doesn't mean that there, you can't, like, talk about the physical causes." That doesn't mean that it's, like, gravity isn't a cause also.
  zh: 我们会说：「好吧，这并不意味着你不能谈论物理原因。」这并不意味着，比如说，重力不也是一个原因。
- start: 2241.751
  end: 2241.771
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2241.771
  end: 2243.471
  speaker: casey
  en: It's a both/and.
  zh: 是两者都有。
- start: 2243.471
  end: 2243.691
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 2243.691
  end: 2244.511
  speaker: casey
  en: So
  zh: 所以
- start: 2244.511
  end: 2244.751
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2244.751
  end: 2245.531
  speaker: casey
  en: Anyway, we...
  zh: 总之，我们……
- start: 2245.531
  end: 2245.891
  speaker: casey
  en: We'll-
  zh: 我们会——
- start: 2245.891
  end: 2246.291
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2246.291
  end: 2247.471
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We'll have to leave that aside.
  zh: 我们必须把那个放在一边。
- start: 2247.471
  end: 2248.631
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it, to me, I...
  zh: 但对我来说，我……
- start: 2248.631
  end: 2259.071
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It does go down this road when the crux of our disagreement is over the cause of salvation and the word cause can be parsed in so many ways.
  zh: 当我们分歧的核心是关于救恩的原因，而「原因」这个词可以有这么多解释时，确实会走向这条路。
- start: 2259.071
  end: 2262.451
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sometimes it's helpful to compare that in other elements to see what I mean.
  zh: 有时候通过与其他要素比较来看我的意思会有帮助。
- start: 2262.451
  end: 2266.931
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I do believe that it is a primary cause.
  zh: 但我确实相信它是一个主要原因。
- start: 2266.931
  end: 2269.731
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm willing to allow there may be exceptions.
  zh: 我愿意承认可能有例外。
- start: 2269.731
  end: 2271.251
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The only place where...
  zh: 唯一的地方是……
- start: 2271.251
  end: 2278.731
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I mean, well, I'm willing to allow that there could be exceptions in cases where we have baptism of desire, where someone...
  zh: 我的意思是，我愿意承认在我们有渴望洗礼的情况下可能有例外，就是当某人……
- start: 2278.731
  end: 2291.591
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Perhaps it's the case that God in his foreknowledge recognizes some people who desire salvation, that grace is communicated to them because God in his foreknowledge knows they will perish before they receive baptism.
  zh: 也许是神在他的预知中认出一些渴望救恩的人，恩典传递给他们是因为神在他的预知中知道他们会在接受洗礼之前死亡。
- start: 2291.591
  end: 2294.191
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That might be another exception explained.
  zh: 这可能是另一个可以解释的例外。
- start: 2294.191
  end: 2302.311
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Those are like the only cases where I would see it happening because the church recognizes the validity of baptism of desire and baptism of blood, like the early Christian-
  zh: 这些就像是我能看到发生的唯一情况，因为教会承认渴望洗礼和血洗的有效性，就像早期基督徒——
- start: 2302.311
  end: 2302.611
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 2302.611
  end: 2302.631
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 2302.631
  end: 2303.671
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: martyrs who weren't baptized.
  zh: 那些没有受洗的殉道者。
- start: 2303.671
  end: 2310.891
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But otherwise, I would say that the traditional view would be that it is, it is a primary cause.
  zh: 但除此之外，我会说传统观点认为它是一个主要原因。
- start: 2310.891
  end: 2313.811
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Though I will say faith has to be associated with it.
  zh: 虽然我会说信心必须与之相关。
- start: 2313.811
  end: 2319.471
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like if you are baptized against your will as an adult or without your will, it's not salvific.
  zh: 比如如果你作为成年人违背你的意愿或在没有你的意愿的情况下受洗，这不会带来救恩。
- start: 2319.471
  end: 2323.911
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So faith is involved in it but baptism is still a primary cause.
  zh: 所以信心参与其中但洗礼仍然是主要原因。
- start: 2323.911
  end: 2324.731
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 2324.731
  end: 2325.031
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2325.031
  end: 2325.691
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2325.691
  end: 2327.671
  speaker: casey
  en: And okay, well, it's helpful to talk this through.
  zh: 好的，讨论这个很有帮助。
- start: 2327.671
  end: 2333.711
  speaker: casey
  en: I think at the end of the day what I find myself getting to is I just wouldn't know how.
  zh: 我想最终我发现的是我只是不知道怎么做。
- start: 2333.711
  end: 2334.511
  speaker: casey
  en: Like I've, I've
  zh: 就像我，我
- start: 2334.511
  end: 2347.311
  speaker: casey
  en: On any issue, I always try to circle back to it, humble myself before it and say, "Am I willing to change my mind if I can see the other side?" And I also try to imagine if I believed this other view, how would I defend it?
  zh: 在任何问题上，我总是试图回到问题本身，在问题面前谦卑，说：「如果我能看到另一面，我愿意改变我的想法吗？」我也试图想象如果我相信这个其他观点，我会如何为它辩护？
- start: 2347.311
  end: 2350.171
  speaker: casey
  en: And that helps me sympathetically understand it as best as I can.
  zh: 这帮助我尽可能同理地理解它。
- start: 2350.171
  end: 2360.171
  speaker: casey
  en: So at times where I try to do that with baptism of regeneration, the sticking point for me is both in the Book of Acts and in my just common Christian experience.
  zh: 所以当我试图对洗礼重生这样做时，对我来说困难的地方既在使徒行传中，也在我普通的基督徒经历中。
- start: 2360.171
  end: 2362.331
  speaker: casey
  en: And this is just one of my concerns.
  zh: 这只是我的一个担忧。
- start: 2362.331
  end: 2364.211
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not my main argument actually, but
  zh: 这实际上不是我的主要论点，但是
- start: 2364.211
  end: 2364.251
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 2364.251
  end: 2364.351
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2364.351
  end: 2365.831
  speaker: casey
  en: is I just don't...
  zh: 我只是不……
- start: 2365.831
  end: 2367.131
  speaker: casey
  en: wouldn't know, I wouldn't know what to do.
  zh: 不知道，我不知道该怎么做。
- start: 2367.131
  end: 2390.251
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, I can't say to these people in the catechetical process, I can't say to John, "You're not yet regenerated just because, you know, maybe the Holy Spirit's working at you in some way but you're not yet made alive to God." That would just go against everything that I understand in terms of what the Holy Spirit's work in drawing people to salvation is.
  zh: 我的意思是，我不能对这些在要理学习过程中的人说，我不能对约翰说：「你还没有重生，因为，你知道，也许圣灵以某种方式在你身上工作，但你还没有在神面前活过来。」这就违背了我对圣灵在吸引人得救的工作的所有理解。
- start: 2390.251
  end: 2394.911
  speaker: casey
  en: And I don't see it as that crazy of an idea to just think, well, look, we've got two cause...
  zh: 我不认为这是一个疯狂的想法，就是想，好吧，看，我们有两个原因……
- start: 2394.911
  end: 2399.571
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, faith and baptism are both spoken of as causative for salvation.
  zh: 我的意思是，信心和洗礼都被说成是救恩的原因。
- start: 2399.571
  end: 2403.791
  speaker: casey
  en: So we've got two causes here with one effect.
  zh: 所以我们这里有两个原因产生一个效果。
- start: 2403.791
  end: 2404.231
  speaker: casey
  en: And I...
  zh: 而且我……
- start: 2404.231
  end: 2420.081
  speaker: casey
  en: Because of what baptism is as a symbolical and representative event, and I'm not saying that it's just a symbol, but as that, it just doesn't seem at all strange to me to say, "Yeah, you're saved at baptism at faith."
  zh: 因为洗礼作为一个象征性和代表性的事件，我不是说它只是一个象征，但作为那样，对我来说说「是的，你在洗礼时因信得救」一点也不奇怪。
- start: 2420.081
  end: 2423.861
  speaker: casey
  en: and that leads up to baptism where it is kind of formally expressed.
  zh: 这导向洗礼，在那里它得到正式的表达。
- start: 2423.861
  end: 2425.541
  speaker: casey
  en: So I guess I'm just
  zh: 所以我想我只是
- start: 2425.541
  end: 2427.961
  speaker: casey
  en: I said I wouldn't talk too much here, so I'll be quiet.
  zh: 我说过我不会在这里说太多，所以我会保持安静。
- start: 2427.961
  end: 2428.402
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's fine.
  zh: 没关系。
- start: 2428.402
  end: 2430.081
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: No, you're fine, and
  zh: 不，你说得很好，而且
- start: 2430.521
  end: 2432.222
  speaker: casey
  en: That's just my sort of summative kind of like
  zh: 这只是我的一种总结性的想法
- start: 2432.222
  end: 2434.941
  speaker: casey
  en: I wouldn't know what to do with that view, if that makes sense.
  zh: 我不知道该如何处理那种观点，如果这说得通的话。
- start: 2434.941
  end: 2455.641
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, and I think the position that I would take is, you know, like Isaiah 55:8-9, "As high as the heavens are above the earth, so are your ways above mine." I am very hesitant to want to include empirical observations of behavior and correlation to behavior to inform my theology.
  zh: 是的，我认为我会采取的立场是，你知道，就像以赛亚书55:8-9说的：「天怎样高过地，照样我的道路高过你们的道路。」我很不愿意把行为的经验观察和行为的相关性纳入来影响我的神学。
- start: 2455.641
  end: 2461.222
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'd rather have it the other way around, my theology is the framework to interpret the different behaviors that I see.
  zh: 我宁愿反过来，我的神学是解释我所看到的不同行为的框架。
- start: 2461.222
  end: 2484.401
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so seeing that, I would say that the act of spiritual regeneration is something so foreign to me as a redeemed sinner, this is an invisible work of the Spirit in the heart of man, that my primary source of knowledge for how that happens must come from divine revelation.
  zh: 所以看到这一点，我会说属灵重生的行动对我这个蒙救赎的罪人来说是如此陌生，这是圣灵在人心中的无形工作，我对这如何发生的主要知识来源必须来自神的启示。
- start: 2484.401
  end: 2490.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I'm very convinced that scripture and tradition of the magisterium all affirm that it's baptism.
  zh: 我非常确信圣经和教会训导权的传统都肯定是洗礼。
- start: 2490.521
  end: 2490.681
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It
  zh: 它
- start: 2490.681
  end: 2493.081
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: What's interesting, it's kind of funny, I was reading some of the comments.
  zh: 有趣的是，这有点好笑，我在读一些评论。
- start: 2493.081
  end: 2497.221
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And by the way, for people listening on my channel, you all be nice to Gavin, he's a good guy.
  zh: 顺便说一下，对于在我频道上听的人，你们都要对加文好一点，他是个好人。
- start: 2497.221
  end: 2499.381
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I already had my
  zh: 我已经有了我的
- start: 2499.381
  end: 2507.401
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I did a little announcement when I did a video on Cameron Bertuzzi, telling my commenters, "You got to relax a little bit." 'Cause people, you know, get like that.
  zh: 我在做关于卡梅伦·伯图齐的视频时做了一个小声明，告诉我的评论者：「你们要放松一点。」因为人们，你知道，会那样。
- start: 2507.401
  end: 2508.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it was funny, I would see...
  zh: 但这很有趣，我会看到……
- start: 2508.501
  end: 2509.401
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But it goes both ways.
  zh: 但这是双向的。
- start: 2509.401
  end: 2516.141
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sometimes on your channel I'll see people saying things like, "Well, Gavin, Trent won't listen to you, 'cause he's committed to defending Catholicism at all costs."
  zh: 有时在你的频道上我会看到人们说：「好吧，加文，特伦特不会听你的，因为他致力于不惜一切代价捍卫公教。」
- start: 2516.141
  end: 2516.201
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2516.201
  end: 2522.121
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I was like, well, actually, even if I weren't Catholic, I would still believe in baptismal regeneration.
  zh: 我就像，好吧，实际上，即使我不是公教徒，我仍然会相信洗礼重生。
- start: 2522.121
  end: 2527.101
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's kind of funny, it's kind of funny, we should play a game with people, what's your fallback denomination?
  zh: 这有点好笑，这有点好笑，我们应该和人们玩一个游戏，你的后备教派是什么？
- start: 2527.101
  end: 2528.621
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If you weren't X- ...
  zh: 如果你不是X——……
- start: 2528.621
  end: 2529.701
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: what's the next one you would pick?
  zh: 你会选择下一个什么？
- start: 2529.701
  end: 2536.321
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: For me, it would be Eastern Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, then maybe Lutheranism.
  zh: 对我来说，会是东正教、圣公会，然后可能是路德宗。
- start: 2536.321
  end: 2537.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's like what...
  zh: 就像是什么……
- start: 2537.501
  end: 2543.721
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So that'd be a fun review with your people and with others, what's your fallback denomination, if yours turns out to be false?
  zh: 所以这会是一个有趣的与你的人和其他人的讨论，如果你的教派被证明是错的，你的后备教派是什么？
- start: 2543.721
  end: 2547.901
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so for me, a common thread in all of those is that they believe in baptismal regeneration.
  zh: 所以对我来说，所有这些的一个共同点是它们都相信洗礼重生。
- start: 2547.901
  end: 2550.601
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So for me, that's how I would look at it, when I'm...
  zh: 所以对我来说，这就是我看待它的方式，当我……
- start: 2550.601
  end: 2557.981
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So because it's such a foreign thing, the work of God here, I'm heartily convinced that it's a part of divine revelation, and that it's baptism that saves.
  zh: 所以因为这是如此陌生的事情，这里神的工作，我深信这是神圣启示的一部分，是洗礼带来救恩。
- start: 2557.981
  end: 2560.321
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I guess that's how I would put it.
  zh: 所以我想这就是我会这样说的原因。
- start: 2560.321
  end: 2561.561
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, that's fair enough.
  zh: 是的，这很公平。
- start: 2561.561
  end: 2564.381
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, let's go to another question.
  zh: 好，让我们去看另一个问题。
- start: 2564.381
  end: 2569.381
  speaker: casey
  en: One of the ones I put out there was about unbaptized babies who die-
  zh: 我提出的其中一个问题是关于未受洗就死亡的婴儿——
- start: 2569.381
  end: 2569.401
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2569.401
  end: 2569.401
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2569.401
  end: 2572.801
  speaker: casey
  en: and what is their state and the historical record on that.
  zh: 他们的状态是什么，以及这方面的历史记录。
- start: 2572.801
  end: 2578.201
  speaker: casey
  en: And I think I had articulated a concern about selectivity here, where, you know, it's,
  zh: 我想我已经表达了一个关于这里选择性的担忧，你知道，就是，
- start: 2578.201
  end: 2584.641
  speaker: casey
  en: There's an appeal to tradition and an appeal to the consensus of the Fathers and so forth.
  zh: 有对传统的诉求和对教父共识的诉求等等。
- start: 2584.641
  end: 2592.041
  speaker: casey
  en: But on this question, it seems to me that all of us today depart from not universal, but long-standing tradition.
  zh: 但在这个问题上，在我看来我们今天都偏离了不是普遍的，但是长期存在的传统。
- start: 2592.041
  end: 2592.621
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2592.621
  end: 2599.661
  speaker: casey
  en: And to summarize that, I would say it looks to me like from Augustine on, you've got limbo, you know?
  zh: 总结一下，我会说在我看来从奥古斯丁开始，你就有了林布，你知道吗？
- start: 2599.661
  end: 2604.781
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay, so you've got various ideas, people are trying to mitigate the suffering in various ways.
  zh: 好的，所以你有各种想法，人们试图以各种方式减轻痛苦。
- start: 2604.781
  end: 2613.921
  speaker: casey
  en: But I don't see anyone affirming that infants who die apart from baptism get the beatific vision, they get full salvation.
  zh: 但我没有看到任何人肯定未受洗就死亡的婴儿能得到真福直观，得到完全的救恩。
- start: 2613.921
  end: 2614.941
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't see anyone.
  zh: 我没有看到任何人。
- start: 2614.941
  end: 2616.501
  speaker: casey
  en: And so this i-
  zh: 所以这是——
- start: 2616.501
  end: 2621.041
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's consistent with, you know, there was a commission in the early 2000s that,
  zh: 这与，你知道，2000年代初期有一个委员会，
- start: 2621.041
  end: 2622.081
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The ITC, yeah.
  zh: 是的，国际神学委员会。
- start: 2622.081
  end: 2622.381
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2622.381
  end: 2623.261
  speaker: casey
  en: that addressed this.
  zh: 处理了这个问题。
- start: 2623.261
  end: 2626.981
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's kind of consistent with their historical summary as well, I don't think I'm way off on that.
  zh: 这与他们的历史总结也是一致的，我不认为我在这点上有很大偏差。
- start: 2626.981
  end: 2630.161
  speaker: casey
  en: So I guess I just, you know, I do...
  zh: 所以我想我只是，你知道，我确实……
- start: 2630.161
  end: 2632.041
  speaker: casey
  en: Here's the thing, I love the Church Fathers.
  zh: 事情是这样的，我爱教父。
- start: 2632.041
  end: 2633.321
  speaker: casey
  en: I do want...
  zh: 我确实想……
- start: 2633.321
  end: 2639.181
  speaker: casey
  en: I don't think it's fair when people accuse me as being, like, a radical individualist who doesn't...
  zh: 我认为当人们指责我是一个激进的个人主义者是不公平的，他不……
- start: 2639.181
  end: 2642.661
  speaker: casey
  en: Who's just kind of making judgments on their own or something like that.
  zh: 就是那种只是自己做判断或类似的事情的人。
- start: 2642.661
  end: 2650.221
  speaker: casey
  en: I understand from a Catholic perspective the concern about if you don't have an authoritative magisterium, you're just functioning on your own and that kind of thing.
  zh: 我从公教的角度理解这种担忧，如果你没有权威的训导权，你就只是在自己行事，诸如此类的事情。
- start: 2650.221
  end: 2655.441
  speaker: casey
  en: But on a question like this, I just believe that there are times where errors come into the tradition.
  zh: 但在这样的问题上，我只是相信有时候错误会进入传统。
- start: 2655.441
  end: 2659.461
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'm curious, how do you think about this in terms of...
  zh: 我很好奇，你如何从这个角度思考……
- start: 2659.461
  end: 2666.581
  speaker: casey
  en: It seems like there's a pretty long-standing tradition here that all of our churches tend to depart from today.
  zh: 看起来这里有一个相当长期的传统，我们所有的教会今天都倾向于偏离它。
- start: 2666.581
  end: 2669.421
  speaker: casey
  en: I know there's not just one view on this within Catholicism.
  zh: 我知道在公教内部对此不只有一种观点。
- start: 2669.421
  end: 2671.741
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2671.741
  end: 2680.301
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And when you brought this up in your reply, I, I'm actually quite sympathetic towards this, this concern that you have.
  zh: 当你在你的回复中提到这一点时，我，我实际上对你的这个担忧很有同感。
- start: 2680.301
  end: 2695.181
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because, yeah, I mean, I appreciated in your original reply, and I tried to speak to this, that it's not wise to just triumphantly throw out your little statement and think that resolves the issue.
  zh: 因为，是的，我的意思是，我很欣赏你最初的回复，我试图说明这一点，仅仅是胜利地抛出你的小声明并认为这解决了问题是不明智的。
- start: 2695.181
  end: 2704.041
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Many of these issues are quite deep and complex, whether it's what scripture means on baptism or the historical record.
  zh: 这些问题中有许多都很深奥和复杂，无论是圣经对洗礼的含义还是历史记录。
- start: 2704.041
  end: 2705.741
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I do think that
  zh: 我确实认为
- start: 2705.741
  end: 2721.821
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I agree with you and the International Theological Commission, that at least from Augustine up until the time of the Reformation, in the West, there was the common doctrine of the Church, it's not an infallible teaching, but a common doctrine held by every theologian was that infants are denied the beatific vision.
  zh: 所以我同意你和国际神学委员会的观点，至少从奥古斯丁到改革时期，在西方，这是教会的共同教义，这不是一个无误的教导，但每个神学家都持有的共同教义是婴儿被否认真福直观。
- start: 2721.821
  end: 2724.241
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: What happens then, there's disagreement about that.
  zh: 然后发生什么，对此有分歧。
- start: 2724.241
  end: 2730.361
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But that they don't have the same beatific vision, place in heaven that we do, seems pretty common.
  zh: 但他们没有和我们一样的真福直观，天堂中的地位，这似乎很普遍。
- start: 2730.361
  end: 2734.781
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, let me see if I can process this all through so I'm not warbling around here.
  zh: 所以，让我看看我是否能把这一切都理清楚，这样我就不会在这里含糊其辞。
- start: 2734.781
  end: 2743.721
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I can see your concern saying, you know, Catholics will say to you and other Baptismal Regenerationists, "Gavin, look, all the Church Fathers uniformly agree on this.
  zh: 我能理解你的担忧，你知道，公教徒会对你和其他洗礼重生论者说：「加文，看，所有教父都一致同意这一点。
- start: 2743.721
  end: 2766.921
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: How can you say no? And your correct response is say, "Yes, but what about other cases where the Fathers agree and we don't agree with them?" Now, for me, I think that does point towards the need for a magisterium to help us understand scripture and help us to understand what sacred traditions are witnessed in the Fathers and what are not.
  zh: 你怎么能说不？而你正确的回应是说：「是的，但其他情况下教父们一致同意而我们不同意的情况又如何？」现在，对我来说，我认为这确实指向了需要一个训导权来帮助我们理解圣经，帮助我们理解在教父中见证了哪些神圣传统，哪些不是。
- start: 2766.921
  end: 2775.281
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: To give you another example, prior to the 11th century, I think every Church Father said that lending money at interest was immoral.
  zh: 给你另一个例子，在11世纪之前，我认为每个教父都说收取利息借钱是不道德的。
- start: 2775.281
  end: 2777.001
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Every single one.
  zh: 每一个人都是。
- start: 2777.001
  end: 2777.181
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2777.181
  end: 2781.581
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And that doesn't start to change among the medieval theologians till like the 11th or 12th centuries.
  zh: 这种观点直到11或12世纪才开始在中世纪神学家中改变。
- start: 2781.581
  end: 2784.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and yet, our understanding of the sin of...
  zh: 然而，我们对……罪的理解
- start: 2784.521
  end: 2789.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They all condemned the sin of usury, and then they identified that with lending at any interest whatsoever.
  zh: 他们都谴责高利贷的罪，然后他们把这与任何收取利息的借贷等同起来。
- start: 2789.501
  end: 2797.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Whereas the Church's understanding of what constitutes the sin of usury has certainly developed since that time.
  zh: 而教会对什么构成高利贷的罪的理解自那时以来肯定有了发展。
- start: 2797.501
  end: 2804.261
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So it wouldn't be the case just 'cause the Fathers condemned something, that does not ipso facto mean it's a part of the deposit of faith.
  zh: 所以不能说仅仅因为教父谴责某事，就自动意味着它是信仰宝库的一部分。
- start: 2804.261
  end: 2806.321
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I think that's a fair point that you raise.
  zh: 所以我认为你提出的这一点很公平。
- start: 2806.321
  end: 2819.761
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's not a slam dunk, but I think it's a big giant red flag waving at us to seriously consider, and then to help us see what is a part of tradition and what isn't.
  zh: 这不是一个板上钉钉的事，但我认为这是一个向我们挥舞的巨大红旗，让我们认真考虑，然后帮助我们看清什么是传统的一部分，什么不是。
- start: 2819.761
  end: 2824.541
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think just as to understand what is affirmed in scripture, there's a need for a magisterium.
  zh: 我认为就像理解圣经中所确认的内容一样，需要一个训导权。
- start: 2824.541
  end: 2828.661
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's also the case with tradition as well.
  zh: 这对传统也是如此。
- start: 2828.661
  end: 2835.461
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, yeah, as I said, I'm sympathetic to it, but I still think, though, that this uniform tradition in the early...
  zh: 所以，是的，就像我说的，我对此表示同情，但我仍然认为，早期的这种统一传统……
- start: 2835.461
  end: 2839.581
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "'Cause even with usury, there's qualification in there in the Fathers and things like that."
  zh: 因为即使是高利贷，在教父们那里也有限定条件之类的东西。
- start: 2839.581
  end: 2845.701
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: To me, its universal status is something at least to be reckoned with.
  zh: 对我来说，它的普遍性至少是需要考虑的。
- start: 2845.701
  end: 2846.861
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, would you...
  zh: 比如，你会……
- start: 2846.861
  end: 2848.761
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I guess, yeah, do you...
  zh: 我想，是的，你……
- start: 2848.761
  end: 2851.941
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Do you have this position,
  zh: 你有这个立场吗，
- start: 2851.941
  end: 2859.721
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Is there any Father, and we'll just cut him off at, you know, Isidore of Seville or whatever, the Church Fathers-
  zh: 有没有任何教父，我们就以塞维利亚的伊西多尔或其他教父为界——
- start: 2859.721
  end: 2860.081
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2860.081
  end: 2860.261
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 2860.261
  end: 2862.801
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: that you would say ex-...
  zh: 你会说明确……
- start: 2862.801
  end: 2876.861
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: '''Cause there could be some where it''s ambiguous, some that deny baptismal regeneration, and say, "Here is this view, but it''s not the case." I don''t know, what are your thoughts on the historical record?'
  zh: 因为可能有一些模糊的地方，有些否认洗礼重生，并说：「这里是这个观点，但事实并非如此。」我不知道，你对历史记录有什么想法？
- start: 2876.861
  end: 2877.981
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2877.981
  end: 2880.581
  speaker: casey
  en: I addressed this a little bit and I'll just summarize.
  zh: 我稍微谈到过这个，我就总结一下。
- start: 2880.581
  end: 2890.301
  speaker: casey
  en: But basically, I think the challenge here is the same with scripture, where it's very difficult, so you've got the sign and you've got the thing signified.
  zh: 但基本上，我认为这里的挑战和圣经一样，很困难，因为你有记号和所表示的事物。
- start: 2890.301
  end: 2890.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2890.521
  end: 2894.661
  speaker: casey
  en: And as with circumcision, one can often stand in for the other.
  zh: 就像割礼一样，一个常常可以代表另一个。
- start: 2894.661
  end: 2907.331
  speaker: casey
  en: And so a lot of times, it's very difficult to tell what the language means. And when I find language like I've located in Justin and Cyril.
  zh: 所以很多时候，很难说清语言的含义。当我在游斯丁和西里尔那里找到的语言。
- start: 2907.331
  end: 2913.531
  speaker: casey
  en: These are two examples I gave where they'll say, may not, you know, they'll say you regenerated in baptism.
  zh: 这是我给出的两个例子，他们会说，可能不是，你知道，他们会说你在洗礼中重生。
- start: 2913.531
  end: 2919.351
  speaker: casey
  en: But, I think they make it pretty clear that the person that that's said of was already regenerated.
  zh: 但是，我认为他们很清楚地表明，他们说的那个人已经重生了。
- start: 2919.351
  end: 2919.571
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2919.571
  end: 2922.251
  speaker: casey
  en: So, you know, they've been made new.
  zh: 所以，你知道，他们已经被更新了。
- start: 2922.251
  end: 2923.411
  speaker: casey
  en: That's Justin's term.
  zh: 这是游斯丁的用语。
- start: 2923.411
  end: 2929.631
  speaker: casey
  en: Cyril says, he's talking about Cornelius as an example, for the necessity of baptism, actually.
  zh: 西里尔说，他实际上是以哥尼流为例，谈论洗礼的必要性。
- start: 2929.631
  end: 2934.671
  speaker: casey
  en: So, he has a very high view of baptism, but he'll say, you know, he was born again at faith.
  zh: 所以，他对洗礼有很高的看法，但他会说，你知道，他在信心时重生了。
- start: 2934.671
  end: 2934.791
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 2934.791
  end: 2936.531
  speaker: casey
  en: So I think...
  zh: 所以我认为……
- start: 2936.531
  end: 2953.711
  speaker: casey
  en: So my answer would be, yeah, I do think that you can see in the fathers this complexity here, and this is why I feel that it's unhelpful, not from you, but when in comments there's this triumphal spirit of kind of like all the church fathers, because as soon as you ask, "Well, what do you mean by baptismal regeneration?"
  zh: 所以我的回答是，是的，我确实认为你可以在教父们中看到这种复杂性，这就是为什么我觉得这是没有帮助的，不是来自你，而是当评论中有这种胜利的精神，好像所有教父都一样，因为一旦你问：「好吧，你说的洗礼重生是什么意思？」
- start: 2953.712
  end: 2954.111
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2954.111
  end: 2959.472
  speaker: casey
  en: This, the, this all the church fathers things starts to get a lot more opaque.
  zh: 这个，这个所有教父的事情开始变得更加模糊。
- start: 2959.472
  end: 2967.391
  speaker: casey
  en: Because I don't think that Justin and Cyril are thinking of the catechumen as just having gotten a kick in the pants.
  zh: 因为我不认为游斯丁和西里尔认为要理学习者只是得到了一个推动。
- start: 2967.391
  end: 2967.551
  speaker: casey
  en: I
  zh: 我
- start: 2967.551
  end: 2970.491
  speaker: casey
  en: They look like they're thinking of them as, no, they've been made new.
  zh: 他们看起来是在想，不，他们已经被更新了。
- start: 2970.491
  end: 2971.911
  speaker: casey
  en: They've been regenerated.
  zh: 他们已经重生了。
- start: 2971.911
  end: 2972.191
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 2972.191
  end: 2974.631
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I, I...
  zh: 所以我，我……
- start: 2974.631
  end: 2994.251
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So it sounds like your position is, well, with some of these fathers, we may not have an explicit rejection of baptismal regeneration, but we got views that seem at least contradictory to that notion, where it might seem like they're affirming it one place, but affirming the opposite or something that might contradict it in another place.
  zh: 所以听起来你的立场是，好吧，对于这些教父中的一些，我们可能没有明确拒绝洗礼重生，但我们得到的观点似乎至少与那个概念相矛盾，他们在一个地方似乎肯定它，但在另一个地方肯定相反的或可能与之矛盾的东西。
- start: 2994.251
  end: 2996.811
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I guess another question I would have...
  zh: 我想我还有另一个问题……
- start: 2996.811
  end: 2997.151
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Look at me.
  zh: 看看我。
- start: 2997.151
  end: 2998.431
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm the one asking questions now.
  zh: 现在是我在问问题了。
- start: 2998.431
  end: 3000.531
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Would you really...
  zh: 你真的会……
- start: 3000.531
  end: 3010.491
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It seems to me that most church historians, like when I read their surveys of early doctrinal history in the early church, J.
  zh: 在我看来，大多数教会历史学家，比如当我读他们对早期教会教义历史的调查时，J.
- start: 3010.491
  end: 3020.551
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Andy Kelly, Everett Ferguson has a great book on baptism in the first five centuries, they all seem to talk about baptismal regeneration.
  zh: 安迪·凯利，埃弗雷特·弗格森有一本关于前五个世纪洗礼的很好的书，他们似乎都谈到洗礼重生。
- start: 3020.551
  end: 3026.271
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They describe it as universal or most church histories seem to find that doctrine.
  zh: 他们把它描述为普遍的，或者大多数教会历史似乎都发现这个教义。
- start: 3026.271
  end: 3032.291
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Is that what you see at least when you're looking at other church history scholars or how people sort out...
  zh: 这是你在看其他教会历史学者或人们如何整理时至少看到的吗……
- start: 3032.291
  end: 3037.051
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, it's agreed there's division in the early church on some things, millennialism, things like that.
  zh: 比如，大家同意早期教会在一些事情上有分歧，千禧年主义之类的。
- start: 3037.051
  end: 3039.551
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: A lot of church history scholars don't see division here.
  zh: 许多教会历史学者在这里看不到分歧。
- start: 3039.551
  end: 3039.811
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Do
  zh: 你
- start: 3039.811
  end: 3041.431
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Would you agree with that assessment of them?
  zh: 你同意他们的这种评估吗？
- start: 3041.431
  end: 3053.951
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes, but I would just put in the qualification of, again, when they talk about baptismal regeneration there, I'm not actually sure that they're targeting baptism as the cause of salvation so that...
  zh: 是的，但我只想加上限定条件，再说一次，当他们在那里谈论洗礼重生时，我实际上不确定他们是否把洗礼作为救恩的原因，所以……
- start: 3053.951
  end: 3055.891
  speaker: casey
  en: You know where you and I would actually differ.
  zh: 你知道你和我实际上在哪里有分歧。
- start: 3055.891
  end: 3056.091
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3056.091
  end: 3057.951
  speaker: casey
  en: Because David Wright is another one.
  zh: 因为大卫·赖特是另一个。
- start: 3057.951
  end: 3063.331
  speaker: casey
  en: So, when I did my dialogues with Jordan Cooper, I read through Wright, Ferguson,
  zh: 所以，当我与乔丹·库珀对话时，我读了赖特、弗格森，
- start: 3063.331
  end: 3070.771
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh, gosh, a few others, some of the other Anglicans, and this is one of the things they're drawing attention to, is so much of this comes down to the linguistics of it.
  zh: 哦，天啊，还有几个其他人，一些其他圣公会的人，这是他们正在关注的事情之一，这很大程度上归结到它的语言学。
- start: 3070.771
  end: 3072.291
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's why I'm trying to keep...
  zh: 这就是为什么我试图保持……
- start: 3072.291
  end: 3077.211
  speaker: casey
  en: Trying to say we should be patient for the complexity of this is, what does baptismal regeneration mean?
  zh: 试图说我们应该对这种复杂性保持耐心，洗礼重生是什么意思？
- start: 3077.211
  end: 3089.891
  speaker: casey
  en: If it means that the catechumen is not yet made new and not yet regenerated until they get in the water, now they're in the water, the Holy Spirit regenerates them, they're out of the water, they're getting dry, now they're regenerate.
  zh: 如果它的意思是要理学习者还没有更新，还没有重生，直到他们进入水中，现在他们在水中，圣灵使他们重生，他们出水，他们变干，现在他们重生了。
- start: 3089.891
  end: 3091.911
  speaker: casey
  en: That's the time at which it happens.
  zh: 这就是它发生的时间。
- start: 3091.911
  end: 3094.751
  speaker: casey
  en: yeah, that just seems...
  zh: 是的，那看起来就像……
- start: 3094.751
  end: 3101.071
  speaker: casey
  en: And so I think what those scholars are summarizing is a more general high realist view of baptism where God is communicating grace.
  zh: 所以我认为那些学者总结的是一个更普遍的对洗礼的高度现实主义观点，即神在传递恩典。
- start: 3101.071
  end: 3105.971
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not necessarily saying that that's where the cause of regeneration, that's where it starts.
  zh: 这不一定是说那就是重生的原因，那就是它开始的地方。
- start: 3105.971
  end: 3108.931
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, I'm thinking of Wright, for example, like the way...
  zh: 我的意思是，我在想赖特，例如，就像那种方式……
- start: 3108.931
  end: 3112.051
  speaker: casey
  en: Oh, George Beasley Murray was the other one.
  zh: 哦，乔治·比斯利·默里是另一个。
- start: 3112.051
  end: 3113.451
  speaker: casey
  en: He's a Protestant Baptist-
  zh: 他是一个新教浸信会——
- start: 3113.451
  end: 3114.111
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Oh, yeah, that's a great one.
  zh: 哦，是的，那是一个很好的例子。
- start: 3114.111
  end: 3114.111
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 3114.111
  end: 3118.171
  speaker: casey
  en: who gets into this and he, you know, ends up having a very high view of baptism.
  zh: 他深入研究这个，你知道，最终对洗礼有很高的看法。
- start: 3118.171
  end: 3122.211
  speaker: casey
  en: But I don't think it would be where you and I would differ, you know, on those questions.
  zh: 但我不认为这会是你和我在那些问题上有分歧的地方。
- start: 3122.211
  end: 3123.551
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 3123.551
  end: 3125.251
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Beasley, I also just
  zh: 比斯利，我也只是
- start: 3125.251
  end: 3125.831
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Let me just
  zh: 让我就
- start: 3125.831
  end: 3126.331
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Hold on.
  zh: 等一下。
- start: 3126.331
  end: 3127.971
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's right here.
  zh: 就在这里。
- start: 3128.731
  end: 3128.851
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 3128.851
  end: 3129.891
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: This is,
  zh: 这是，
- start: 3129.891
  end: 3133.031
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, I've got it right here actually.
  zh: 是的，我这里实际上有它。
- start: 3133.031
  end: 3135.611
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, but he adds a view that's...
  zh: 是的，但他添加了一个观点……
- start: 3135.611
  end: 3139.331
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He admits himself, runs extremely contrary to his own denomination.
  zh: 他自己承认，这与他自己的教派极其相反。
- start: 3139.331
  end: 3145.631
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That he says, he says in the book, that he's really kind of a lone figure and about what it does.
  zh: 他在书中说，他在这方面真的是一个孤立的人物。
- start: 3145.631
  end: 3145.911
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I...
  zh: 但我……
- start: 3145.911
  end: 3152.691
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But when I read others like I think Ferguson and others, in the summaries, not just using the term regeneration, but I...
  zh: 但当我读其他人，比如我认为弗格森和其他人，在总结中，不仅仅是使用重生这个词，但我……
- start: 3152.691
  end: 3153.071
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They'll use...
  zh: 他们会用……
- start: 3153.071
  end: 3164.851
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They'll say, "The fathers associated baptism with forgiveness or remission of sins." And they're talking about baptism itself as that moment of forgiveness.
  zh: 他们会说：「教父们将洗礼与赦罪或罪得赦免联系在一起。」他们谈论洗礼本身就是那个赦罪的时刻。
- start: 3164.851
  end: 3171.431
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, but I see what you're saying though about qualifying the language involved.
  zh: 是的，但我明白你说的关于限定所涉及语言的意思。
- start: 3171.431
  end: 3172.971
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But,
  zh: 但是，
- start: 3172.971
  end: 3172.991
  speaker: casey
  en: And
  zh: 而且
- start: 3172.991
  end: 3173.671
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But in any case...
  zh: 但无论如何……
- start: 3173.671
  end: 3174.571
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, go ahead.
  zh: 是的，请说。
- start: 3174.571
  end: 3180.471
  speaker: casey
  en: And one thing I could acknowledge on my side is you mentioned Beasley Murray's views at odds with his denomination.
  zh: 在我这边我可以承认的一件事是你提到比斯利·默里的观点与他的教派不一致。
- start: 3180.471
  end: 3183.771
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I want to acknowledge that a lot of contemporary Baptists...
  zh: 好吧，我想承认很多当代浸信会……
- start: 3183.771
  end: 3190.331
  speaker: casey
  en: One of the many ways we can be enriched by dialogue with other traditions is we have too low a view of baptism.
  zh: 我们可以通过与其他传统对话而得到丰富的许多方式之一是，我们对洗礼的看法太低了。
- start: 3190.331
  end: 3193.411
  speaker: casey
  en: It's ironic because we're called Baptists.
  zh: 这很讽刺，因为我们被称为浸信会。
- start: 3193.411
  end: 3193.971
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Called Baptists.
  zh: 被称为浸信会。
- start: 3193.971
  end: 3199.351
  speaker: casey
  en: But many modern day Baptists have fallen away even from historic Baptist views.
  zh: 但许多现代浸信会甚至偏离了历史上的浸信会观点。
- start: 3199.351
  end: 3203.311
  speaker: casey
  en: Another interesting book for people to read is Stan Fowler's book, More Than a Symbol.
  zh: 另一本有趣的书是斯坦·福勒的书《不仅仅是象征》。
- start: 3203.311
  end: 3208.111
  speaker: casey
  en: He's canvassing historic Baptist views and is showing it wasn't just a symbol for the historic Baptists.
  zh: 他正在调查历史上的浸信会观点，并显示对历史上的浸信会来说这不仅仅是一个象征。
- start: 3208.111
  end: 3211.751
  speaker: casey
  en: There's all kinds of things that Baptists believe God is doing through baptisms.
  zh: 浸信会相信神通过洗礼做各种各样的事情。
- start: 3211.751
  end: 3225.571
  speaker: casey
  en: So, Baptists need to rediscover our own history as well, 'cause, you know, 300 years ago, Beasley Murray's view wouldn't have been as much at odds with kind of the common street level Baptist practices today.
  zh: 所以，浸信会也需要重新发现我们自己的历史，因为，你知道，300年前，比斯利·默里的观点不会与今天普通街头浸信会的做法有这么大的冲突。
- start: 3225.571
  end: 3239.091
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I was trying to be quick to acknowledge, especially low church evangelical Protestant churches have blind spots and weak areas, and we can be tremendously helped by talking with those of other traditions such as yourself.
  zh: 所以，我试图很快承认，特别是低教会福音派新教教会有盲点和弱点，我们可以通过与像你这样的其他传统的人交谈而得到极大的帮助。
- start: 3239.091
  end: 3259.291
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: W- who would you say then is the first Christian author, maybe it was Reformation, maybe it was somewhat pre-Reformation, that you would point to to say that, yeah, this person is affirming, like, my view on baptism, like, and in their theological writings, like, it's pretty unambiguous?
  zh: 那么你会说谁是第一个基督教作者，也许是改革时期，也许是改革前，你会指出说，是的，这个人肯定，比如，我对洗礼的看法，比如，在他们的神学著作中，比如，这是相当明确的？
- start: 3259.771
  end: 3269.251
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I pointed to Justin Martyr and his language, because he's basically saying baptism is regenerative, but, by the way, you're already regenerated before you get in the water.
  zh: 好吧，我指出了殉道者游斯丁和他的语言，因为他基本上是说洗礼是重生的，但是，顺便说一句，你在进入水中之前就已经重生了。
- start: 3269.251
  end: 3271.431
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's basically what I'm trying to say is
  zh: 这基本上就是我试图说的
- start: 3271.431
  end: 3276.131
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, baptism does save, but it's not like that's when it happens, or that that's...
  zh: 是的，洗礼确实拯救，但不是说那就是它发生的时候，或者那是……
- start: 3276.131
  end: 3279.831
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, you're not regenerated until that time.
  zh: 你知道，你直到那时才重生。
- start: 3279.831
  end: 3281.971
  speaker: casey
  en: Rather it's baptism in its...
  zh: 而是洗礼在其……
- start: 3281.971
  end: 3284.651
  speaker: casey
  en: That, that's the official public expression.
  zh: 那，那是正式的公开表达。
- start: 3284.651
  end: 3286.171
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3286.271
  end: 3286.991
  speaker: casey
  en: So.
  zh: 所以。
- start: 3286.991
  end: 3287.471
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: All righty.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3287.471
  end: 3288.791
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: let's...
  zh: 让我们……
- start: 3288.791
  end: 3290.851
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, actually you were gonna ask me questions, so that's why-
  zh: 好吧，实际上你要问我问题，所以这就是为什么——
- start: 3290.851
  end: 3290.951
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3290.951
  end: 3293.531
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think we covered that well about the,
  zh: 我认为我们很好地讨论了关于，
- start: 3293.531
  end: 3297.511
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The other question is, what do we do when we have a lot of the fathers agreeing on something?
  zh: 另一个问题是，当我们有很多教父在某事上达成一致时，我们该怎么办？
- start: 3297.511
  end: 3300.231
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think it's important for Catholics to understand we're not,
  zh: 我认为对公教徒来说理解我们不是，这很重要，
- start: 3300.231
  end: 3301.431
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Because some Catholics can do this.
  zh: 因为有些公教徒会这样做。
- start: 3301.431
  end: 3304.111
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They can create doctrine of their own making by their own reading of the fathers.
  zh: 他们可以通过自己对教父的解读创造自己的教义。
- start: 3304.111
  end: 3305.251
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They need to be careful with that.
  zh: 他们需要对此小心。
- start: 3305.251
  end: 3308.351
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: that's why the magisterium...
  zh: 这就是为什么训导权……
- start: 3308.351
  end: 3313.771
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The catechism says that sacred tradition is witnessed in the fathers.
  zh: 要理问答说神圣传统在教父中得到见证。
- start: 3313.771
  end: 3322.151
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The writings of the fathers are not identical to sacred tradition, obviously, but they are a witness to it, and so the magisterium helps us to determine when they are witnesses of it.
  zh: 教父的著作显然不等同于神圣传统，但它们是对神圣传统的见证，所以训导权帮助我们确定它们何时是神圣传统的见证。
- start: 3322.151
  end: 3323.171
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的。
- start: 3323.171
  end: 3326.331
  speaker: casey
  en: Let me ask this question.
  zh: 让我问这个问题。
- start: 3326.331
  end: 3327.491
  speaker: casey
  en: This is another one I put out there.
  zh: 这是我提出的另一个问题。
- start: 3327.491
  end: 3331.111
  speaker: casey
  en: So, this is more specific exegetical question about Hebrews 10:22.
  zh: 所以，这是关于希伯来书10:22更具体的解经问题。
- start: 3331.111
  end: 3331.231
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3331.231
  end: 3332.151
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3332.151
  end: 3332.911
  speaker: casey
  en: So, this came up.
  zh: 所以，这就提出来了。
- start: 3332.911
  end: 3336.211
  speaker: casey
  en: You know that verse says, "Let us draw near to God."
  zh: 你知道那节经文说：「让我们亲近神。」
- start: 3336.211
  end: 3352.231
  speaker: casey
  en: '"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Now, the argument I was making is that the Old Testament has language of water, which refers to a spiritual cleansing.'
  zh: 「我们心中天良的亏欠已经洒去，身体用清水洗净了，就当存着诚心和充足的信心来到神面前。」现在，我提出的论点是旧约有关于水的语言，指的是属灵的洁净。
- start: 3352.231
  end: 3363.831
  speaker: casey
  en: In Ezekiel, for example, and the New Testament picks this up and baptism recalls this language, points to this language, but the language doesn't always strictly refer to the act of baptism.
  zh: 例如在以西结书中，新约采用了这个，洗礼回应这种语言，指向这种语言，但这种语言并不总是严格指洗礼的行为。
- start: 3363.831
  end: 3369.191
  speaker: casey
  en: And I was saying that it looks like that here because this is in the context of perseverance.
  zh: 我说这里看起来是这样，因为这是在坚持的背景下。
- start: 3369.191
  end: 3370.851
  speaker: casey
  en: These are people who are already Christians.
  zh: 这些人已经是基督徒了。
- start: 3370.851
  end: 3374.891
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I wanted to give you a chance if you wanted to interact with that, verse at all.
  zh: 所以，如果你想谈谈那节经文，我想给你一个机会。
- start: 3374.891
  end: 3375.771
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3375.771
  end: 3380.011
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, what I would say here is that this is also a reference to baptism.
  zh: 所以，我要说的是这也是对洗礼的引用。
- start: 3380.011
  end: 3383.911
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: James Brownson, in a 2007 book from Eerdmans, some...
  zh: 詹姆斯·布朗森在2007年厄德曼斯出版社的一本书中，一些……
- start: 3383.911
  end: 3388.698
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think the book is called The Gift of Baptism. He references and compares it to Ephesians...
  zh: 我想这本书叫《洗礼的恩赐》。他引用并比较它与以弗所书……
- start: 3388.698
  end: 3396.077
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: to Ephesians 5:25 and Acts 22:16, talking about baptism having this cleansing element.
  zh: 与以弗所书5:25和使徒行传22:16，谈论洗礼有这种洁净的要素。
- start: 3396.077
  end: 3411.318
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, how I would look at it is that the author of Hebrews is encouraging people to persevere in the faith and drawing on different elements, past and present, in the life of a believer to spur on that perseverance.
  zh: 所以，我会这样看，希伯来书的作者在鼓励人们在信仰中坚持，并从信徒生命中过去和现在的不同要素中汲取力量来促进这种坚持。
- start: 3411.318
  end: 3421.137
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So starting at Hebrews 10:19, we have conf- "Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence, enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus." And so by the crucifixion that happened in the past.
  zh: 所以从希伯来书10:19开始，我们有「所以弟兄们，我们既然因耶稣的血得以坦然进入至圣所。」这是通过过去发生的钉十字架。
- start: 3421.137
  end: 3428.337
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: '"The new and living way which he opened for us through the curtain, through his flesh." So, we have confidence because of the crucifixion that has happened before.'
  zh: 「就是他给我们开了一条又新又活的路，从幔子经过，这幔子就是他的身体。」所以，我们有信心是因为之前发生的钉十字架。
- start: 3428.337
  end: 3441.537
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: '"Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." The verbs there are perfect participles.'
  zh: 「我们心中天良的亏欠已经洒去，身体用清水洗净了，就当存着诚心和充足的信心来到神面前。」那里的动词是完成分词。
- start: 3441.537
  end: 3453.957
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, they are verbs that are functioning as nouns or adjectives, but they are describing an event that is completed in the past that now has an effect on something in the future.
  zh: 所以，它们是作为名词或形容词功能的动词，但它们描述的是过去完成的事件，现在对未来有影响。
- start: 3453.957
  end: 3461.417
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's like if I said, "Having eaten dinner, let us go enjoy our walk on the beach." You know?
  zh: 就像如果我说：「吃完晚饭后，让我们去海滩散步。」你知道吗？
- start: 3461.417
  end: 3468.177
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's something that has happened and because this has happened, this can give us strength and confidence.
  zh: 这是已经发生的事情，因为这已经发生了，这可以给我们力量和信心。
- start: 3468.177
  end: 3480.517
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: In fact, the next verse in 10:23, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful." So there, you know, the confession is something that we made in the past...
  zh: 事实上，下一节10:23说：「也要坚守我们所承认的指望，不至摇动，因为那应许我们的是信实的。」所以在那里，你知道，承认是我们在过去做的事……
- start: 3480.517
  end: 3484.257
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know, you still make, but it's talking about something that we have made before.
  zh: 你知道，你仍然在做，但它说的是我们以前做过的事。
- start: 3484.257
  end: 3488.437
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And then it goes on, "Stir one another up, not neglecting to meet," things like that.
  zh: 然后继续说：「彼此相顾，激发爱心，不可停止聚会」，诸如此类的事。
- start: 3488.437
  end: 3495.857
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I would see that as perseverance rooted in baptismal graces, things that have happened to us that still have effects today.
  zh: 所以，我会把这看作是植根于洗礼恩典的坚持，发生在我们身上的事情仍然在今天产生影响。
- start: 3495.857
  end: 3497.277
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I guess that's how I would look at the passage.
  zh: 所以我想这就是我看这段经文的方式。
- start: 3497.277
  end: 3498.117
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3498.117
  end: 3498.677
  speaker: casey
  en: Fascinating.
  zh: 很有趣。
- start: 3498.677
  end: 3498.957
  speaker: casey
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3498.957
  end: 3500.277
  speaker: casey
  en: So question of clarification.
  zh: 所以需要澄清的问题。
- start: 3500.277
  end: 3513.577
  speaker: casey
  en: So the clause there, "With our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water." Do you see the, "Hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience" also as a past event being recalled?
  zh: 所以那里的从句，「我们心中天良的亏欠已经洒去，身体用清水洗净了。」你是否也把「心中天良的亏欠已经洒去」看作是被回忆的过去事件？
- start: 3513.577
  end: 3517.797
  speaker: casey
  en: Or do you think that this is in concert with drawing near; you're receiving a fresh sprinkling?
  zh: 还是你认为这是与亲近同时发生的；你正在接受新的洒水？
- start: 3517.797
  end: 3520.677
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, well, yeah.
  zh: 好吧，好吧，是的。
- start: 3520.677
  end: 3524.617
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think both sprinkled and washed are the same verb form as a perfect participle.
  zh: 我认为洒去和洗净都是同样的动词形式，都是完成分词。
- start: 3524.617
  end: 3526.737
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I would say that this is...
  zh: 所以，我会说这是……
- start: 3526.737
  end: 3533.117
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That both of them are allusions to baptism, just like going back to the promise that would be in Ezekiel, your hearts...
  zh: 它们都是对洗礼的暗示，就像回到以西结书中的应许，你们的心……
- start: 3533.117
  end: 3536.457
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think the language of sprinkling can be found there.
  zh: 我认为那里可以找到洒水的语言。
- start: 3536.457
  end: 3544.337
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And that was also a mode of baptism in areas that didn't have rivers or a lot of access to water, like desert areas.
  zh: 这也是在没有河流或很少能接触到水的地方的一种洗礼方式，比如沙漠地区。
- start: 3544.337
  end: 3549.917
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I would see both as references to past baptism and the graces of baptism, continuing on.
  zh: 所以我会把两者都看作是对过去洗礼和洗礼恩典的引用，继续下去。
- start: 3549.917
  end: 3550.717
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3550.717
  end: 3551.257
  speaker: casey
  en: Fascinating.
  zh: 很有趣。
- start: 3551.257
  end: 3557.877
  speaker: casey
  en: So the idea of the verse is kind of draw nearer to God in the present, having had this happen in the past?
  zh: 所以这节经文的意思是在现在亲近神，这是基于过去发生的事？
- start: 3557.877
  end: 3558.737
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 3558.857
  end: 3559.237
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3559.237
  end: 3560.037
  speaker: casey
  en: Interesting.
  zh: 有趣。
- start: 3560.037
  end: 3560.237
  speaker: casey
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3560.237
  end: 3561.677
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I'll think a bit on that.
  zh: 好，我会想想这个。
- start: 3561.677
  end: 3563.717
  speaker: casey
  en: That's good to get your take on that.
  zh: 很好能听到你对这个的看法。
- start: 3563.717
  end: 3564.997
  speaker: casey
  en: What about,
  zh: 那么，
- start: 3564.997
  end: 3567.337
  speaker: casey
  en: Here's another specific exegetical question, the,
  zh: 这是另一个具体的解经问题，
- start: 3567.337
  end: 3570.477
  speaker: casey
  en: I want to give you a chance to speak to because I raised it with circumcision.
  zh: 我想给你一个机会谈谈，因为我提出了关于割礼的问题。
- start: 3570.477
  end: 3582.937
  speaker: casey
  en: So I had one of the things I pointed out is that circumcision of the heart and circumcision of the flesh seem to have the same complicated sign-signified relationship where one can stand in for the other.
  zh: 所以我指出的一件事是，心的割礼和肉体的割礼似乎有相同的复杂的符号-所指关系，其中一个可以代表另一个。
- start: 3582.937
  end: 3585.377
  speaker: casey
  en: So I think if I were to say to...
  zh: 所以我想如果我要对……说
- start: 3585.377
  end: 3599.417
  speaker: casey
  en: If I were a Jewish person in the 200s BC, I could say to a Gentile, "Be circumcised, coming to the living God," or, "Be circumcised, having your sins washed away."
  zh: 如果我是公元前200年代的犹太人，我可以对外邦人说：「受割礼，来到永生神面前」，或者「受割礼，洗去你的罪。」
- start: 3599.417
  end: 3599.577
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 3599.577
  end: 3607.157
  speaker: casey
  en: And what I'm saying is, become Jewish, circumcision is the symbol of that, and part of the package of that is salvation.
  zh: 我说的是，成为犹太人，割礼是这个的象征，这个包的一部分是救恩。
- start: 3607.157
  end: 3607.877
  speaker: casey
  en: It's the whole thing.
  zh: 这是整个事情。
- start: 3607.877
  end: 3610.597
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm talking about the whole process.
  zh: 我说的是整个过程。
- start: 3610.597
  end: 3610.957
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 3610.957
  end: 3611.717
  speaker: casey
  en: and then we've...
  zh: 然后我们……
- start: 3611.717
  end: 3621.277
  speaker: casey
  en: And I mentioned Romans 2:29 where Paul is saying, "Circumcision is a matter of the heart by the spirit," and it seems to me like he's teaching us what physical circumcision is.
  zh: 我提到罗马书2:29，保罗在那里说：「真割礼是心里的，在乎灵」，在我看来他是在教导我们什么是身体的割礼。
- start: 3621.277
  end: 3621.937
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3621.937
  end: 3628.517
  speaker: casey
  en: How would you comment upon this connection and tie it into our discussion?
  zh: 你如何评论这个联系，并将它与我们的讨论联系起来？
- start: 3628.517
  end: 3638.737
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: When you said he's teaching us what physical circumcision is, are you saying he's making a reference to the Jewish rite of circumcision or how the language is applied to Christians?
  zh: 当你说他在教导我们什么是身体的割礼时，你是说他在引用犹太人的割礼仪式，还是说这种语言如何应用于基督徒？
- start: 3638.737
  end: 3641.617
  speaker: casey
  en: the former.
  zh: 前者。
- start: 3641.617
  end: 3642.657
  speaker: casey
  en: The first of those two.
  zh: 这两个中的第一个。
- start: 3642.657
  end: 3645.017
  speaker: casey
  en: But, well, both by implication.
  zh: 但是，好吧，通过暗示两者都是。
- start: 3645.017
  end: 3645.037
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3645.037
  end: 3647.377
  speaker: casey
  en: But not just how it's applied to Christians.
  zh: 但不仅仅是它如何应用于基督徒。
- start: 3647.377
  end: 3647.597
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3647.597
  end: 3655.777
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: A- and what I would say is that, you know, in Romans chapter two, you know, Paul is talking about how everyone is convicted under the law.
  zh: 我要说的是，你知道，在罗马书第二章，你知道，保罗在谈论每个人如何在律法下被定罪。
- start: 3655.777
  end: 3658.817
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Everyone stands in need of salvation in Christ, Jew and Gentile.
  zh: 每个人都需要在基督里得救，无论是犹太人还是外邦人。
- start: 3658.817
  end: 3663.257
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Convicts the Gentiles with the arguments from Romans 1.
  zh: 用罗马书第1章的论点定外邦人的罪。
- start: 3663.257
  end: 3664.657
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: no...
  zh: 不……
- start: 3664.657
  end: 3672.137
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Romans 2, though he also holds the Jews accountable, that just being circumcised is not a magic key to get into heaven.
  zh: 罗马书第2章，虽然他也让犹太人负责，仅仅受割礼不是进天堂的魔法钥匙。
- start: 3672.137
  end: 3676.517
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "'Cause there's people who are outwardly circumcised but their hearts have not been..."
  zh: 因为有人外表上受了割礼但他们的心还没有……
- start: 3676.517
  end: 3682.877
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Have not been purified, that the act of circumcision does not have the same effects on the soul.
  zh: 还没有被洁净，割礼的行为对灵魂没有相同的效果。
- start: 3682.877
  end: 3686.537
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: One must also be circumcised of the heart as a matter of that.
  zh: 一个人也必须在心里受割礼。
- start: 3686.537
  end: 3698.537
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I could see how your language might apply there, but that would only show that circumcision as part of the old covenant was deficient in some ways.
  zh: 所以，我能看到你的语言如何适用于那里，但那只能表明作为旧约一部分的割礼在某些方面是有缺陷的。
- start: 3698.537
  end: 3705.237
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And this is prophesied in Ezekiel when God says, "I will take your hearts of stone.
  zh: 这在以西结书中被预言，当神说：「我要除掉你们的石心。
- start: 3705.237
  end: 3707.437
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I will give you living hearts, hearts for me alone.
  zh: 我要赐给你们活心，单单属我的心。
- start: 3707.437
  end: 3720.597
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I will write my law upon your hearts, that there was something that while circumcision was quite helpful in the old covenant to create ethnic boundaries and identities for the Jewish people, it wasn't enough for that spiritual transformative element.
  zh: 我要将我的律法写在你们心上，」这表明虽然割礼在旧约中对创造犹太人的民族界限和身份很有帮助，但对于那种属灵的转化要素来说还不够。
- start: 3720.597
  end: 3721.897
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So in all of...
  zh: 所以在所有的……
- start: 3721.897
  end: 3748.357
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Especially the Pauline corpus, I would see that while the comparison you're making about be saved, the circumcision's a sign or seal accompanying it, I don't think that would apply to baptism because baptism is purposely, in the new covenant, superior to circumcision, in those ways, that baptism really does accomplish what it signifies in cleansing the person of sin, making them an adopted child of God.
  zh: 特别是在保罗文集中，我会看到虽然你做的关于得救的比较，割礼是伴随的记号或印记，我不认为这适用于洗礼，因为洗礼在新约中是有意地优于割礼，在那些方面，洗礼真的完成了它所表示的洗净人的罪，使他们成为神的养子。
- start: 3748.357
  end: 3757.877
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think that that's very clear in the letter to the Colossians, in Colossians chapter two, where you have the comparison with circumcision and baptism.
  zh: 我认为这在歌罗西书，在歌罗西书第二章中非常清楚，那里有割礼和洗礼的比较。
- start: 3757.877
  end: 3772.637
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And Paul's saying in Colossians 2:11-12, "In him also, you were circumcised with the circumcision made without hands by putting off the body of flesh and the circumcision of Christ..." Verse 12 often starts with the word "and", but that's not in the Greek text, "...
  zh: 保罗在歌罗西书2:11-12说：「你们在他里面也受了不是人手所行的割礼，乃是基督使你们脱去肉体情欲的割礼……」第12节经常以「和」字开始，但这在希腊文本中并不存在，「……
- start: 3772.637
  end: 3777.117
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and you were buried with him in baptism." Though I read them, if you take the...
  zh: 你们在洗礼中与他一同埋葬。」虽然我读了它们，如果你采用……
- start: 3777.117
  end: 3787.157
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's no word and in the Greek text, "Putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ, you were buried with him in baptism." So I guess that's how I would look at it, is I can see your...
  zh: 在希腊文本中没有「和」字，「在基督的割礼中脱去肉体，你们在洗礼中与他一同埋葬。」所以我想这就是我会如何看待它，我能看到你的……
- start: 3787.157
  end: 3798.397
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I can see how your description might apply with circumcision, but I see it as kind of deficient, and baptism has a lot of more superior elements in it to what it actually confers upon a person.
  zh: 我能看到你的描述如何可能适用于割礼，但我认为它有点缺陷，而洗礼在它实际赐给一个人的事物上有许多更优越的要素。
- start: 3798.397
  end: 3800.017
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: so I don't think it would...
  zh: 所以我不认为它会……
- start: 3800.017
  end: 3801.097
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It would apply in that case.
  zh: 在那种情况下适用。
- start: 3801.097
  end: 3802.497
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I guess that's how I would kind of look at it.
  zh: 所以我想这就是我会如何看待它。
- start: 3802.497
  end: 3803.117
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3803.117
  end: 3803.477
  speaker: casey
  en: All right.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3803.477
  end: 3803.837
  speaker: casey
  en: Fair enough.
  zh: 很公平。
- start: 3803.837
  end: 3804.117
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3804.117
  end: 3817.277
  speaker: casey
  en: And my sense is, and I've thought about this a lot more since talking with Jordan Cooper, is I do appreciate there's an amplification from Old Testament to New Testament with respect to these signs.
  zh: 我的感觉是，自从与乔丹·库珀谈话以来，我对此想了更多，我确实感激从旧约到新约关于这些记号有一个放大。
- start: 3817.277
  end: 3821.557
  speaker: casey
  en: So I agree baptism is superior to circumcision in various ways.
  zh: 所以我同意洗礼在各个方面都优于割礼。
- start: 3821.557
  end: 3828.397
  speaker: casey
  en: I wouldn't see that as located in this sign-signified relationship.
  zh: 我不会认为这存在于这种符号-所指的关系中。
- start: 3828.397
  end: 3840.377
  speaker: casey
  en: And so when I read a verse like this, I could think people could hammer away at a verse like this to argue for circumcisional regeneration, just in the way people hammer away at 1 Peter 3:21, which-
  zh: 所以当我读这样的经文时，我可以想象人们可以反复强调这样的经文来论证割礼重生，就像人们反复强调彼得前书3:21一样，这——
- start: 3840.377
  end: 3840.917
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Are you talking about...
  zh: 你说的是……
- start: 3840.917
  end: 3842.537
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Are you talking about Romans 2:29?
  zh: 你说的是罗马书2:29吗？
- start: 3842.537
  end: 3843.557
  speaker: casey
  en: Correct.
  zh: 正确。
- start: 3843.557
  end: 3849.537
  speaker: casey
  en: They could just say, "Look, Paul says circumcision is of the heart by the spirit," and they could...
  zh: 他们可以说：「看，保罗说割礼是心里的，在乎灵，」他们可以……
- start: 3849.537
  end: 3852.457
  speaker: casey
  en: You know, and obviously that just doesn't settle things 'cause it then...
  zh: 你知道，显然这并不能解决问题，因为然后……
- start: 3852.457
  end: 3854.197
  speaker: casey
  en: So let me ask you this.
  zh: 所以让我问你这个。
- start: 3854.197
  end: 3854.537
  speaker: casey
  en: Do you
  zh: 你
- start: 3854.537
  end: 3870.757
  speaker: casey
  en: The sentence, "Be circumcised, coming to the living God," can you see linguistically how that's a meaningful statement and how that's at least, at the linguistic level, a possible way to think about sign and things signified?
  zh: 这句话，「受割礼，来到永生神面前」，你能从语言学角度看出这是一个有意义的陈述，以及这至少在语言层面上是一个思考符号和所指事物的可能方式吗？
- start: 3871.087
  end: 3871.327
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3871.327
  end: 3878.067
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So like you're saying there what it means is, it's not that circumcision brings you to the living God-
  zh: 所以就像你说的，它的意思是，不是说割礼带你到永生神面前——
- start: 3878.067
  end: 3878.087
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3878.087
  end: 3882.687
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: but you should be circumcised because that's part of the process that brings you to the living God.
  zh: 但你应该受割礼，因为这是带你到永生神面前的过程的一部分。
- start: 3882.687
  end: 3888.347
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, part of the pro- I would say it's the physical sign of the process having happened.
  zh: 好吧，过程的一部分——我会说这是过程已经发生的物理标志。
- start: 3888.347
  end: 3890.727
  speaker: casey
  en: You know someone's a Jew because there's...
  zh: 你知道某人是犹太人因为有……
- start: 3890.727
  end: 3892.647
  speaker: casey
  en: And just the same with baptism.
  zh: 洗礼也是一样。
- start: 3892.647
  end: 3896.407
  speaker: casey
  en: You know when someone's baptized you just say, "Oh, that person is now a Christian."
  zh: 你知道当某人受洗时你就说：「哦，那个人现在是基督徒了。」
- start: 3896.407
  end: 3900.827
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So Paul's concern is that their heart isn't going along with where other parts of their body are.
  zh: 所以保罗关心的是他们的心没有跟随他们身体其他部分的方向。
- start: 3900.827
  end: 3903.187
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That the heart wasn't carried along with it.
  zh: 心没有随之而行。
- start: 3903.187
  end: 3905.227
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You got that, not, that...
  zh: 你明白了，不是，那……
- start: 3905.227
  end: 3907.307
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The problem is that people are not...
  zh: 问题是人们没有……
- start: 3907.307
  end: 3915.707
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That the physical act of circumcision is not sufficient enough to cause the spiritual effect onto a person's heart.
  zh: 割礼的物理行为不足以对一个人的心产生属灵的效果。
- start: 3915.707
  end: 3915.867
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 3915.867
  end: 3920.187
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so one has to do that as well, along with the sign.
  zh: 所以一个人也必须这样做，伴随着这个记号。
- start: 3920.187
  end: 3926.448
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Then I would say that baptism is superior because it really does cleanse and change our souls, in that effect.
  zh: 然后我会说洗礼是优越的，因为它真的洁净和改变我们的灵魂，在那个效果上。
- start: 3926.448
  end: 3927.627
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: However, it's not...
  zh: 然而，它不是……
- start: 3927.627
  end: 3930.167
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I agree with you that some Catholic...
  zh: 我同意你说的一些公教……
- start: 3930.167
  end: 3932.807
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know if you're trying to defend this view, you have...
  zh: 你知道如果你试图捍卫这个观点，你有……
- start: 3932.807
  end: 3933.927
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's like there's two extremes.
  zh: 这就像有两个极端。
- start: 3933.927
  end: 3937.987
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Your extreme is, it's just a symbol and doesn't communicate grace.
  zh: 你的极端是，它只是一个象征，不传递恩典。
- start: 3937.987
  end: 3942.907
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The other extreme would be hyper ex opere operato.
  zh: 另一个极端是过分强调因着行为本身就生效。
- start: 3942.907
  end: 3948.987
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Once you receive baptism, the graces flow automatically because of the water and what it's done to you.
  zh: 一旦你接受洗礼，恩典就会自动流动，因为水和它对你做的事。
- start: 3948.987
  end: 3966.547
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Whereas Catholic theology recognizes that it's possible for someone to receive baptismal graces but for no spiritual fruit to come from it because a person has not chosen to yield to that or allow the baptismal graces to flourish in their life, that a person has to cooperate with it.
  zh: 而公教神学认识到，有可能有人接受洗礼的恩典但没有产生属灵的果子，因为这个人没有选择顺服或允许洗礼的恩典在他们的生命中茂盛，一个人必须与之合作。
- start: 3966.547
  end: 3969.727
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so faith, there is a part of faith involved in there as well.
  zh: 所以信心，其中也有信心的部分。
- start: 3969.727
  end: 3970.767
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 3970.767
  end: 3974.527
  speaker: casey
  en: That, that's helpful, to segue to my final question.
  zh: 那，那很有帮助，引出我的最后一个问题。
- start: 3974.587
  end: 3975.207
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 3975.207
  end: 3997.687
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'll just say in summary on that, for people watching this, if they're wanting to try to understand, if the word metonymy kind of like, "I don't know what he's talking about." Think about what I'm saying about circumcision, and think about if that were also the way we thought about baptism, that might help people arrive at a clearer understanding, because I am sensitive to the fact that some of these concepts, it is a little tricky to wrap your mind around it.
  zh: 我就总结一下，对于观看这个的人，如果他们想要理解，如果「转喻」这个词让人觉得「我不知道他在说什么」。想想我说的关于割礼的内容，想想如果这也是我们思考洗礼的方式，这可能帮助人们达到更清晰的理解，因为我意识到这些概念中有些确实有点难以理解。
- start: 3997.887
  end: 3998.987
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, yeah, it's a hard...
  zh: 是的，是的，这很难……
- start: 3998.987
  end: 4013.607
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's like if we s- I think I use this in my video, it's like if I say, "The Pentagon told the White House, 'Here's the problems of the defense plan.'" It's like, well, it's not like that building told the other building what happened.
  zh: 就像如果我们——我想我在视频中用过这个，就像如果我说：「五角大楼告诉白宫：『这是防御计划的问题。』」好吧，这不是说那栋建筑告诉另一栋建筑发生了什么。
- start: 4013.607
  end: 4013.827
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 4013.827
  end: 4014.867
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The building represents...
  zh: 这栋建筑代表……
- start: 4014.867
  end: 4017.267
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It was these generals and people that told the President.
  zh: 是这些将军和人告诉了总统。
- start: 4017.267
  end: 4018.807
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and so I see what you're saying.
  zh: 所以我明白你在说什么。
- start: 4018.807
  end: 4025.007
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think your example of the blood of, saved by the blood of Jesus is helpful because we don't literally believe it's only his blood.
  zh: 我认为你举的耶稣的血，因耶稣的血得救的例子很有帮助，因为我们不是字面上相信只是他的血。
- start: 4025.007
  end: 4027.687
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's the death of him as a whole person.
  zh: 是他作为整个人的死。
- start: 4027.687
  end: 4033.207
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: My concern is that with baptism we would need a similar argument that it is...
  zh: 我的担忧是对于洗礼我们需要一个类似的论证，它是……
- start: 4033.207
  end: 4040.367
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Just like as we're just highly confident it's not just the blood, I would need another powerful argument that it's not just baptism I suspect.
  zh: 就像我们非常确信不仅仅是血一样，我怀疑我需要另一个有力的论证证明不仅仅是洗礼。
- start: 4040.367
  end: 4041.567
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But, but I, you're right.
  zh: 但是，但是我，你说得对。
- start: 4041.567
  end: 4042.447
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That is, I, it's...
  zh: 就是说，我，这是……
- start: 4042.447
  end: 4048.467
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I will give you this, it is an ingenious way to look at it that has a lot of explanatory power.
  zh: 我承认这一点，这是一个很有解释力的巧妙看法。
- start: 4048.467
  end: 4049.187
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But you're right.
  zh: 但你说得对。
- start: 4049.187
  end: 4051.567
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: With grammar, it's like, what do I mean by that?
  zh: 对于语法来说，就像，我这样说是什么意思？
- start: 4051.567
  end: 4052.187
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So
  zh: 所以
- start: 4052.187
  end: 4052.627
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的。
- start: 4052.627
  end: 4053.987
  speaker: casey
  en: So hopefully that can help people.
  zh: 所以希望这能帮助人们。
- start: 4053.987
  end: 4058.847
  speaker: casey
  en: But, okay, so the last question is not at all necessarily even where we would...
  zh: 但是，好的，所以最后一个问题不一定是我们会……
- start: 4058.847
  end: 4066.747
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not a challenge ques- more of an interpretation type question of kind of, can you understand the concern of formalism, that I have where the...
  zh: 这不是一个挑战性的问题——更多是一个解释性的问题，就是，你能理解我对形式主义的担忧吗，就是……
- start: 4066.747
  end: 4068.567
  speaker: casey
  en: See, 'cause my perspective on this...
  zh: 看，因为我对此的观点……
- start: 4068.567
  end: 4073.227
  speaker: casey
  en: And then after this I'll ask you what other topics we want to talk about down the road if you want to do any of that too, but.
  zh: 然后在这之后我会问你我们将来想谈论什么其他话题，如果你也想谈的话，但是。
- start: 4073.227
  end: 4073.707
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure, yeah.
  zh: 当然，好的。
- start: 4073.707
  end: 4087.047
  speaker: casey
  en: My honest, sincere heart level concern is something that happens so much that I think the baptismal regeneration traditions can push against.
  zh: 我诚实、真诚的内心担忧是某些经常发生的事情，我认为洗礼重生的传统可能会反对。
- start: 4087.047
  end: 4091.307
  speaker: casey
  en: So I'm not saying this always must happen for anyone who affirms baptismal regeneration.
  zh: 所以我不是说这一定会发生在任何肯定洗礼重生的人身上。
- start: 4091.307
  end: 4098.567
  speaker: casey
  en: But what I just honestly see so much at the street level is a formalism where the focus is put on the rite.
  zh: 但我在实际生活中确实经常看到的是一种形式主义，重点放在仪式上。
- start: 4098.567
  end: 4109.707
  speaker: casey
  en: It's like, "Baptism saved me, so I'm good." And there isn't what you've mentioned, the need for faith, and there isn't this sense of, you know...
  zh: 就像，「洗礼救了我，所以我没问题了。」而没有你提到的，对信心的需要，也没有这种感觉，你知道……
- start: 4109.707
  end: 4114.667
  speaker: casey
  en: "'Cause the whole thing, for me the sacraments, the whole point is to point us to Jesus Christ."
  zh: 因为整件事，对我来说圣事，整个要点是指向耶稣基督。
- start: 4114.667
  end: 4116.467
  speaker: casey
  en: The whole point is to lift...
  zh: 整个要点是提升……
- start: 4116.467
  end: 4120.147
  speaker: casey
  en: You see the water and you think, "That's what Jesus does to us.
  zh: 你看到水就想：「这就是耶稣对我们做的事。
- start: 4120.147
  end: 4128.887
  speaker: casey
  en: He washes our sins away. You are submerged into the dark water, you rise up out of it and you feel, "This is what union with Christ is.
  zh: 他洗去我们的罪。你浸入黑暗的水中，你从中升起，你感觉：「这就是与基督联合。」
- start: 4128.887
  end: 4134.087
  speaker: casey
  en: I've been raised with Christ. And so the whole point is to point our eyes to Jesus Christ.
  zh: 我已经与基督一同复活。所以整个要点是让我们的眼目注视耶稣基督。
- start: 4134.087
  end: 4135.567
  speaker: casey
  en: Do you
  zh: 你
- start: 4135.567
  end: 4141.427
  speaker: casey
  en: Can you understand this, the worry here, of at least at street level practice-
  zh: 你能理解这个，这里的担忧，至少在实际操作层面——
- start: 4141.427
  end: 4141.707
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 4141.707
  end: 4141.727
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 4141.727
  end: 4151.087
  speaker: casey
  en: traditions that think it's baptism that causes regeneration can put so much focus on the rite that if we get stuck there we're not looking from it up to Christ.
  zh: 认为是洗礼导致重生的传统可能过分关注仪式，如果我们停留在那里，我们就没有从中仰望基督。
- start: 4151.087
  end: 4155.427
  speaker: casey
  en: And I'm just curious how you'd think about that concern and if you can see that concern.
  zh: 我只是好奇你如何看待这个担忧，以及你是否能看到这个担忧。
- start: 4155.427
  end: 4161.387
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I can see your concern, but it's not as concerning to me.
  zh: 我能看到你的担忧，但对我来说没那么令人担忧。
- start: 4161.387
  end: 4175.067
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I would agree with you that, for example, somebody who treats baptism, "Yeah, well, let's baptize the baby so Nana is happy" and, "Look, we got them baptized, what else do we have to do?" Especially in the case of infant baptism.
  zh: 所以，我同意你的观点，例如，有人对待洗礼说：「是的，让我们给婴儿施洗让奶奶高兴」和「看，我们给他们施洗了，我们还要做什么？」特别是在婴儿洗礼的情况下。
- start: 4175.067
  end: 4183.907
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Now I, now for me, I am very in favor of it obviously, I'm quite happy that my children are baptized because I know that they're all below the age of reason.
  zh: 现在我，对我来说，我显然非常赞成它，我很高兴我的孩子们受洗了，因为我知道他们都还没有达到有理性的年龄。
- start: 4183.907
  end: 4190.147
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If something were to happen to them, I have absolute complete confidence they're going to heaven, 100%.
  zh: 如果他们发生什么事，我完全确信他们会上天堂，百分之百。
- start: 4190.147
  end: 4192.007
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I'm fine with that.
  zh: 所以我对此没问题。
- start: 4192.007
  end: 4199.007
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But there, if other people could baptize your baby and then you don't instill the faith in them, that's bad, especially since they have the fruits of baptism.
  zh: 但是在那里，如果其他人可以给你的婴儿施洗，然后你不向他们灌输信仰，这是不好的，特别是因为他们有洗礼的果子。
- start: 4199.007
  end: 4204.927
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's why the Catholic Church will not do baptisms unless there is a well-founded hope the child will be raised Catholic.
  zh: 这就是为什么公教会不会施洗，除非有充分的希望这个孩子会被培养成公教徒。
- start: 4204.927
  end: 4212.507
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So like if a priest sees that the parents are just doing it to please Nana, it's postponed until you can see there's that well-founded hope.
  zh: 所以如果一个神父看到父母只是为了让奶奶高兴而这样做，就会推迟，直到你能看到有那种充分的希望。
- start: 4212.507
  end: 4223.227
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I guess some thoughts on here, I believe that Christ wants us to have assurance of salvation but not a false presumption.
  zh: 但我想在这里有一些想法，我相信基督希望我们有得救的确据但不是虚假的自以为是。
- start: 4223.227
  end: 4228.947
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I get where you're concerned that some people could take the rite of baptism and get a false presumption out of it.
  zh: 所以我理解你担心有些人可能会把洗礼仪式当作虚假的自以为是。
- start: 4228.947
  end: 4255.327
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I would say that that same concern that if you hold the five-point Calvinism, if you believe in the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, for example, that just as much, if not more so, could lend itself to the same kind of presumption of saying, like, "Well, I made my act of faith however many years ago and I can't lose my salvation." So, you know, it's fine.
  zh: 但我要说，如果你持五要点加尔文主义，如果你相信圣徒恒忍的教义，例如，这同样，如果不是更多的话，可能会导致同样类型的自以为是，比如说：「好吧，我多少年前做了我的信心行动，我不能失去我的救恩。」所以，你知道，没问题。
- start: 4255.327
  end: 4256.727
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That if there is...
  zh: 如果有……
- start: 4256.727
  end: 4269.287
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If one can believe in perseverance of the saints without cons- well, you know, while dealing with the presumption problem there, I would say the presumption problem is less when it comes to the doctrine of baptism.
  zh: 如果一个人可以相信圣徒恒忍而不——好吧，你知道，在处理那里的自以为是问题时，我会说当涉及到洗礼的教义时，自以为是的问题较少。
- start: 4269.287
  end: 4282.867
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, because what I would say is that, that putting salvation in baptism, I think it walks a good line between, presumption and, lack of...
  zh: 所以，因为我要说的是，把救恩放在洗礼中，我认为它在自以为是和缺乏……之间走了一条好路线。
- start: 4282.867
  end: 4284.487
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and lack of assurance.
  zh: 和缺乏确据之间。
- start: 4284.487
  end: 4290.387
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We don't want presumption, we don't want someone to think they're going to heaven no matter what and I can do whatever I want, doesn't matter anymore really.
  zh: 我们不想要自以为是，我们不想要某人认为无论如何他们都会上天堂，我可以做任何我想做的事，真的不再重要了。
- start: 4290.387
  end: 4293.267
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But, I would also be concerned of...
  zh: 但是，我也会担心……
- start: 4293.267
  end: 4300.427
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I've met people who say, like, "Yeah, you know, I was saved when I was eight years old, 12 years old.
  zh: 我遇到过说这样话的人，比如：「是的，你知道，我在八岁，十二岁时得救了。
- start: 4300.427
  end: 4302.427
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Was I really saved?
  zh: 我真的得救了吗？
- start: 4302.427
  end: 4318.787
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, now, I'm having a crisis of faith and, you know, not everything you believe when you're 10 you believe when you're an adult. And, you know, so I think it makes sense that God would give us sacraments as these objective signs that can be abused to presumption, but I don't think so.
  zh: 比如，现在，我正经历信仰危机，你知道，你在10岁时相信的不是所有事情你在成年时都相信。而且，你知道，所以我认为神给我们圣事作为这些客观的记号是有道理的，这些记号可能被滥用于自以为是，但我不这么认为。
- start: 4318.787
  end: 4326.087
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: At least not nearly as much as what other traditions would hold, especially with perseverance of the saints and things like that.
  zh: 至少不像其他传统所持有的那样多，特别是关于圣徒恒忍和类似的事情。
- start: 4326.087
  end: 4332.467
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I see where the concern could manifest but I don't think it is as concerning as what you might find.
  zh: 所以我看到担忧可能会表现在哪里，但我不认为它像你可能发现的那样令人担忧。
- start: 4332.467
  end: 4336.107
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: The same problem would afflict almost every other denomination of varying stripes.
  zh: 同样的问题几乎会影响到每个不同类型的教派。
- start: 4336.107
  end: 4336.887
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 4336.887
  end: 4338.887
  speaker: casey
  en: Yes, and I want to clarify.
  zh: 是的，我想澄清。
- start: 4338.887
  end: 4341.847
  speaker: casey
  en: The concern is not so much presumption as, as...
  zh: 担忧不是那么多关于自以为是，而是……
- start: 4341.847
  end: 4343.707
  speaker: casey
  en: I think I used the word formalism of...
  zh: 我想我用了形式主义这个词……
- start: 4343.707
  end: 4346.607
  speaker: casey
  en: Or even, we could speak of a ritualism where the-
  zh: 或者甚至，我们可以说一种仪式主义，其中——
- start: 4346.607
  end: 4346.667
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I-
  zh: 我——
- start: 4346.667
  end: 4346.687
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 4346.687
  end: 4352.687
  speaker: casey
  en: object of faith is in baptism, rather than in the God who works through baptism.
  zh: 信心的对象是洗礼，而不是通过洗礼工作的神。
- start: 4352.687
  end: 4353.167
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I see.
  zh: 我明白了。
- start: 4353.167
  end: 4376.061
  speaker: casey
  en: And, you know, I see...Again, it's, I want to be, I always want to be careful to distinguish street-level practice and official theology, because this is one of my frustrations with a lot of the anti-Protestant sentiments one hears now and again in comments and elsewhere, is that common evangelical practice is represented as Protestantism, and it's just not true.
  zh: 而且，你知道，我看到……再说一次，我想要，我总是想要小心地区分实际操作和官方神学，因为这是我对在评论和其他地方时不时听到的许多反新教情绪的一个挫折，就是普通福音派的做法被表示为新教，这根本不是真的。
- start: 4376.061
  end: 4378.082
  speaker: casey
  en: There's so much more to Protestantism.
  zh: 新教还有更多内容。
- start: 4378.082
  end: 4379.261
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's but it is hard.
  zh: 但这确实很难。
- start: 4379.261
  end: 4381.061
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's a very large, moving target.
  zh: 这是一个很大的、移动的目标。
- start: 4381.061
  end: 4384.221
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's not to use inflammatory language.
  zh: 不是要使用煽动性的语言。
- start: 4384.221
  end: 4384.261
  speaker: casey
  en: No.
  zh: 不。
- start: 4384.261
  end: 4387.341
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's I mean like for example I'm hoping...
  zh: 我的意思是比如说我希望……
- start: 4387.341
  end: 4393.381
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I offered to debate Ray Comfort, for example, and hopefully we will do that in the fall.
  zh: 比如说我提出要和雷·康福特辩论，希望我们能在秋天进行。
- start: 4393.381
  end: 4398.461
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I'm sure you guys might have similar views, might also have way divergent views.
  zh: 但我确信你们可能有相似的观点，也可能有很不同的观点。
- start: 4398.461
  end: 4401.301
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I highly doubt his view is as nuanced as yours.
  zh: 我非常怀疑他的观点会像你的一样细致。
- start: 4401.301
  end: 4412.541
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So, I get where you're saying, I guess we always have to tread lightly knowing that there's different strains of belief within Protestantism, I guess.
  zh: 所以，我明白你的意思，我想我们总是要谨慎行事，因为知道新教内部有不同的信仰流派，我想。
- start: 4412.541
  end: 4415.061
  speaker: casey
  en: And, yeah, and I would...
  zh: 而且，是的，我会……
- start: 4415.061
  end: 4428.481
  speaker: casey
  en: an appeal I could make to Catholics summarizing Protestant theology would be one way to, for it not to be a moving target is to look at confessional traditions and just read, you know, quote the confession and say that's the view of this tradition.
  zh: 我可以向公教徒提出的建议是，总结新教神学的一种方式，为了使它不成为一个移动的目标，就是看信仰告白传统，只需阅读，你知道，引用信仰告白并说这是这个传统的观点。
- start: 4428.481
  end: 4438.121
  speaker: casey
  en: Because, in other words, the distinction I'm drawing is not that, you know, all Protestants are similar, we're certainly not, but it's more between street-level practice and official theology.
  zh: 因为，换句话说，我所做的区分不是说，你知道，所有新教徒都相似，我们当然不是，而是更多在于实际操作和官方神学之间的区别。
- start: 4438.121
  end: 4446.601
  speaker: casey
  en: The, you know, if you want to know the official standards for a Presbyterian, you can look them up and read through the Westminster Standards and see this is what they believe.
  zh: 你知道，如果你想知道长老会的官方标准，你可以查找并阅读《威斯敏斯特准则》，看看这就是他们相信的。
- start: 4446.601
  end: 4452.461
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But, I'll tell you, though, what's the hardest for me, and I think why many Catholics have this view if they engage in comments and say these things, is you'll...
  zh: 但是，我告诉你，对我来说最难的，我想这也是为什么许多公教徒如果他们参与评论并说这些事情时会有这种观点，是你会……
- start: 4452.461
  end: 4456.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: when you meet a Protestant friend, you ask them, "Oh, what denomination do you belong to?"
  zh: 当你遇到一个新教朋友，你问他们：「哦，你属于哪个教派？」
- start: 4456.501
  end: 4457.521
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4457.521
  end: 4465.921
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, I could bet three out of five times, a lot of times, they'll say, "Oh, well, I'm non-denominational." Like, it's just, it's probably the biggest denomination out there.
  zh: 就像，我敢打赌五次中有三次，很多时候，他们会说：「哦，好吧，我是无宗派的。」就像，这可能是最大的教派了。
- start: 4465.921
  end: 4467.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's such a common one.
  zh: 这是一个如此普遍的回答。
- start: 4467.521
  end: 4468.201
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 4468.201
  end: 4480.721
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think I could probably say this, that the number of Protestants whose theology is rooted in confessional creeds, I would say that's the minority.
  zh: 我想我可能可以这样说，神学植根于信仰告白的新教徒的数量，我会说那是少数。
- start: 4480.721
  end: 4482.561
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think-
  zh: 我认为——
- start: 4482.561
  end: 4483.681
  speaker: casey
  en: I couldn't agree to that.
  zh: 我不能同意那个。
- start: 4483.681
  end: 4486.521
  speaker: casey
  en: I mean, I grew up in the Presbyterian Church of America.
  zh: 我的意思是，我在美国长老会长大。
- start: 4486.521
  end: 4495.861
  speaker: casey
  en: I remember having my experience in that denomination was such where I'm interacting with others as well.
  zh: 我记得我在那个教派的经历就是这样，我也在与其他人互动。
- start: 4495.861
  end: 4499.121
  speaker: casey
  en: But even if you were right, I mean, the point that I'm making is-
  zh: 但即使你是对的，我的意思是，我要说的重点是——
- start: 4499.121
  end: 4499.281
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 4499.281
  end: 4499.381
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 4499.381
  end: 4503.701
  speaker: casey
  en: then just say I'm criticizing non-denominational Protestants.
  zh: 那就直说我在批评无宗派的新教徒。
- start: 4503.701
  end: 4513.721
  speaker: casey
  en: What I was trying to say, my originating comment was, it's unfair to treat non-denominational Protestantism-
  zh: 我试图说的，我最初的评论是，把无宗派新教——
- start: 4513.721
  end: 4513.821
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 4513.821
  end: 4513.841
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 4513.841
  end: 4515.641
  speaker: casey
  en: as representative of Protestantism.
  zh: 当作新教的代表是不公平的。
- start: 4515.641
  end: 4516.181
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 4516.181
  end: 4526.061
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And that's why it's important, and I think it's important in others who engage in this, and I try to do this as well, when you talk about views, to qualify.
  zh: 这就是为什么这很重要，我认为对其他参与这个的人来说也很重要，我也试图这样做，当你谈论观点时，要加以限定。
- start: 4526.061
  end: 4527.541
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And to say, you know
  zh: 要说，你知道
- start: 4527.541
  end: 4538.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: and usually what you'll have to end up doing is saying something like, "Some Protestants believe X." And so I think you're really just on a lot safer ground if you just say some instead of all.
  zh: 通常你最后不得不说类似这样的话：「一些新教徒相信X。」所以我认为如果你只说一些而不是所有，你就站在更安全的立场上。
- start: 4538.521
  end: 4546.201
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Really the only things that are all are just the things that are not Catholic, like all Protestants don't believe in the papacy, or, you know, things.
  zh: 真正所有新教徒都一致的事情只是那些非公教的事情，比如所有新教徒都不相信教皇制度，或者，你知道，诸如此类的事情。
- start: 4546.201
  end: 4547.681
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Now, I do want to...
  zh: 现在，我确实想……
- start: 4547.681
  end: 4550.161
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I want to make sure I understood you, because this is helpful clarification.
  zh: 我想确保我理解了你的意思，因为这是有帮助的澄清。
- start: 4550.161
  end: 4559.801
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I see what you're saying, and that goes back to my illustration of baptizing for the sake of nah-nah, of just like ritualism, of just like doing this...
  zh: 我明白你在说什么，这回到我举的为了奶奶而施洗的例子，就像仪式主义，就像只是做这个……
- start: 4559.801
  end: 4567.981
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And this is a concern with any kind of liturgical tradition where you have rituals, you fall into ritualism.
  zh: 这是对任何有仪式的礼仪传统的担忧，你有仪式，你就会陷入仪式主义。
- start: 4567.981
  end: 4579.361
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so, you know, I think one extreme is to just get rid of the rituals themselves so you're more focused, you're more deliberate.
  zh: 所以，你知道，我认为一个极端是完全摒弃仪式本身，这样你会更专注，更深思熟虑。
- start: 4579.361
  end: 4582.961
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I think that's kind of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
  zh: 但我认为这有点把婴儿和洗澡水一起倒掉了。
- start: 4582.961
  end: 4589.861
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That I think that God gives us many rituals, we're ritualistic creatures.
  zh: 我认为神给了我们许多仪式，我们是有仪式性的生物。
- start: 4589.861
  end: 4594.341
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: it's easy, like in marriage, you know, the signs of affection you give to a spouse can become ritualistic.
  zh: 这很容易，就像在婚姻中，你知道，你给配偶的爱的表示可能变成仪式化的。
- start: 4594.341
  end: 4597.521
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But that doesn't mean it's wrong to get your wife flowers.
  zh: 但这并不意味着给你的妻子买花是错的。
- start: 4597.521
  end: 4600.101
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You just have to always move the heart with it.
  zh: 你只需要始终让心与之同行。
- start: 4600.101
  end: 4608.601
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so that's why I would say that I see the concern, but it's not enough for me to override the importance of...
  zh: 所以这就是为什么我会说我看到这个担忧，但这对我来说不足以超过……的重要性
- start: 4608.601
  end: 4610.561
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: that the sacraments are not mere rituals.
  zh: 圣事不仅仅是仪式。
- start: 4610.561
  end: 4614.501
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Though we have a bad habit as humans to become ritualistic, we have to watch out for.
  zh: 虽然我们作为人类有变得仪式化的坏习惯，我们必须警惕。
- start: 4614.501
  end: 4615.321
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4615.321
  end: 4616.621
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I'll just say two comments.
  zh: 好，我只说两点评论。
- start: 4616.621
  end: 4620.581
  speaker: casey
  en: One is on, back just rewinding the clock about 90 seconds.
  zh: 第一点是，回到大约90秒前。
- start: 4620.581
  end: 4628.761
  speaker: casey
  en: One thing that as a Protestant I could make the appeal for Catholics to do is instead of summarizing based upon just what you see, read the historic-
  zh: 作为一个新教徒，我可以呼吁公教徒做的一件事是，不要仅仅根据你所看到的来总结，要阅读历史的——
- start: 4628.761
  end: 4629.021
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 4629.021
  end: 4629.041
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 4629.041
  end: 4629.581
  speaker: casey
  en: standards.
  zh: 标准。
- start: 4629.581
  end: 4639.101
  speaker: casey
  en: So quote, if you want to criticize, you know, Presbyterian Church polity, quote the Westminster Standards.
  zh: 所以如果你想批评，你知道，长老会的教会治理，就引用《威斯敏斯特准则》。
- start: 4639.101
  end: 4642.101
  speaker: casey
  en: Or if you want to criticize, you know, whatever it is, just go quote those-
  zh: 或者如果你想批评，你知道，不管是什么，就去引用那些——
- start: 4642.101
  end: 4645.821
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Or London Baptist or, you know, of course it depends.
  zh: 或者伦敦浸信会的，你知道，当然这取决于具体情况。
- start: 4645.821
  end: 4648.241
  speaker: casey
  en: Whatever, whatever tradition, yeah, exactly.
  zh: 不管是什么，不管是什么传统，是的，没错。
- start: 4648.241
  end: 4651.741
  speaker: casey
  en: And that's something I think would be a positive step.
  zh: 我认为这会是一个积极的步骤。
- start: 4651.741
  end: 4657.001
  speaker: casey
  en: Because, you know, the thing is, evangelical Protestantism is really easy to observe.
  zh: 因为，你知道，事情是，福音派新教很容易观察到。
- start: 4657.001
  end: 4658.701
  speaker: casey
  en: It's very large in the United States.
  zh: 它在美国很大。
- start: 4658.701
  end: 4659.321
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 4659.321
  end: 4664.841
  speaker: casey
  en: It's sort of, you know, since the '50s and Billy Graham does his crusades, there's a lot of evangelicals around.
  zh: 它有点，你知道，自从50年代和葛培理做他的布道会以来，周围有很多福音派。
- start: 4664.841
  end: 4671.521
  speaker: casey
  en: So it's re- whenever there's a majority view, it's easy to just observe it and describe it by means of anecdote.
  zh: 所以当有一个主流观点时，很容易就通过轶事来观察和描述它。
- start: 4671.521
  end: 4678.321
  speaker: casey
  en: And I just really think it helps the more that people would quote our confessional documents.
  zh: 我真的认为人们越多引用我们的信仰告白文件就越有帮助。
- start: 4678.321
  end: 4680.781
  speaker: casey
  en: And even evangelicals have those.
  zh: 甚至福音派也有那些。
- start: 4680.781
  end: 4684.301
  speaker: casey
  en: So, the other thing I was gonna say is, oh, de- oh yeah, rituals.
  zh: 所以，我要说的另一件事是，哦，哦是的，仪式。
- start: 4684.301
  end: 4696.521
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, I just wanted to say in agreement with you, rituals are good, and that the difference here is we do have a different view on whether the power is in the ritual in some sense.
  zh: 是的，我只是想说我同意你的观点，仪式是好的，这里的区别是我们对于力量是否在某种意义上存在于仪式中有不同的看法。
- start: 4696.521
  end: 4703.581
  speaker: casey
  en: And so that's why I think that my pastoral concern comes up, is people think that baptism saves.
  zh: 这就是为什么我认为我的牧养关切出现了，是人们认为洗礼能救人。
- start: 4703.581
  end: 4704.601
  speaker: casey
  en: Like when...
  zh: 就像当……
- start: 4704.601
  end: 4717.621
  speaker: casey
  en: so, you know, when an infant is brought to the font and water in the name of the Trinity is put on the infant, they just passed into a state of regeneration, and I don't believe that, but I'm just, you know...
  zh: 所以，你知道，当一个婴儿被带到洗礼盆前，奉三位一体的名给婴儿施水，他们就进入了重生的状态，我不相信这个，但我只是，你知道……
- start: 4717.621
  end: 4720.161
  speaker: casey
  en: it, it's kind of an invitation to see it through my eyes.
  zh: 这是一种邀请，通过我的眼睛来看它。
- start: 4720.161
  end: 4726.761
  speaker: casey
  en: Like if you thought, if you didn't, if you don't think it's enough, can you see how this is going to cause people to downplay the role of faith?
  zh: 就像如果你认为，如果你不认为，如果你不认为这足够，你能看到这会如何导致人们轻视信心的角色吗？
- start: 4726.761
  end: 4732.281
  speaker: casey
  en: And, not that it needs to do that, but that it often does, it seems to me.
  zh: 而且，不是说它必须这样做，但它经常这样做，在我看来是这样。
- start: 4732.281
  end: 4733.061
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 4733.061
  end: 4752.241
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And that's why in the baptismal liturgy, when Catholics go to have their children baptized, they, you know, say, "What do you seek for your child?" "Well, we ask for faith, we ask for baptism." And so we do ask for it in the liturgy, we ask for faith, especially for the child who does not have the gift, does not have faith right now at all.
  zh: 这就是为什么在洗礼礼仪中，当公教徒去给他们的孩子施洗时，他们，你知道，说：「你为你的孩子寻求什么？」「好吧，我们寻求信心，我们寻求洗礼。」所以我们确实在礼仪中寻求它，我们寻求信心，特别是对于现在完全没有这个恩赐，没有信心的孩子。
- start: 4752.241
  end: 4767.301
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And seeing the, and that's why there's so much that happens about, even for an infant there's a prayer of exorcism that is done, because the strong belief that the child is still under the domain of Satan.
  zh: 看到这个，这就是为什么有这么多事情发生，即使对于婴儿也要做驱魔祷告，因为强烈相信孩子仍然在撒旦的统治之下。
- start: 4767.301
  end: 4790.821
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: They're a very cute dominion of Satan, but they still lack that grace and so there's prayer of exorcism to drive away the presence of the evil one, and also the prayers over the godparents and the parents and their sacred roles and responsibilities in bringing to fruition the baptismal graces that have been given to the child.
  zh: 他们是撒旦统治下很可爱的人，但他们仍然缺乏那个恩典，所以有驱魔祷告来驱赶邪恶者的存在，也有对教父母和父母的祷告，以及他们在实现已经给予孩子的洗礼恩典方面的神圣角色和责任。
- start: 4790.821
  end: 4791.781
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So,
  zh: 所以，
- start: 4791.781
  end: 4791.941
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4791.941
  end: 4792.341
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You're right.
  zh: 你说得对。
- start: 4792.341
  end: 4802.001
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And so I think that's helpful and I think it's good also for, for other Protestants, and this is something that happens on both sides of any dispute.
  zh: 所以我认为这很有帮助，我认为对其他新教徒来说也很好，这是任何争议双方都会发生的事情。
- start: 4802.001
  end: 4809.241
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's a dispute about an issue, you're concerned about the other side, so you swing the pendulum too far in the other direction.
  zh: 对一个问题有争议，你担心对方，所以你把钟摆摆得太远到另一个方向。
- start: 4809.241
  end: 4812.861
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I think just both sides always have to be aware of when they might be doing that.
  zh: 我认为双方都必须始终意识到他们可能在什么时候这样做。
- start: 4812.861
  end: 4813.761
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4813.761
  end: 4814.661
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, that's a good point.
  zh: 是的，这是个好观点。
- start: 4814.661
  end: 4817.101
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay, let's...
  zh: 好的，让我们……
- start: 4817.101
  end: 4828.121
  speaker: casey
  en: so this has been a really enjoyable conversation and a really interesting one because this is an area where, you know, I'm, we're sort of at the opposite ends of the spectrum as a Baptist and Roman Catholic, so it's fascinating to talk.
  zh: 所以这是一个非常愉快的对话，也是一个非常有趣的对话，因为这是一个领域，你知道，我，我们作为浸信会和罗马公教会处于光谱的两端，所以谈话很有趣。
- start: 4828.121
  end: 4832.961
  speaker: casey
  en: But on other issues, I think people might be curious what else we're gonna talk about.
  zh: 但在其他问题上，我想人们可能好奇我们还要谈什么。
- start: 4832.961
  end: 4836.421
  speaker: casey
  en: I know there's been a lot of questions on here about whether we're doing debates and that kind of thing.
  zh: 我知道这里有很多关于我们是否要进行辩论之类的问题。
- start: 4836.421
  end: 4839.541
  speaker: casey
  en: Do we want to talk at all to finish off here about other topics that-
  zh: 我们要不要在这里谈一谈其他话题——
- start: 4839.541
  end: 4839.861
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 4839.861
  end: 4839.881
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 4839.881
  end: 4842.701
  speaker: casey
  en: we may discuss or debate at the time zone?
  zh: 我们可能在时区讨论或辩论的话题？
- start: 4842.701
  end: 4844.661
  speaker: casey
  en: We don't necessarily need to commit ourselves to anything-
  zh: 我们不一定要承诺任何事情——
- start: 4844.661
  end: 4845.021
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的，是的。
- start: 4845.021
  end: 4851.721
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I mean, there's a lot to talk about and it's just so interesting here, like I always look for things to do, like I'll do rebuttals.
  zh: 好吧，我的意思是，有很多可以谈的，这里就很有趣，就像我总是在寻找要做的事情，比如我会做反驳。
- start: 4851.721
  end: 4862.615
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I mean, it's just fun to be like, "You need to rebut this person, destroy them." Like, I mean, I'll offer, I think it's important for people to see the other position, but I much prefer either formal debates......
  zh: 我的意思是，就像「你需要反驳这个人，摧毁他们」这样很有趣。我的意思是，我会提供，我认为让人们看到另一个立场很重要，但我更喜欢正式辩论……
- start: 4862.615
  end: 4867.775
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: or dialogues like this, and both have their pluses and minuses.
  zh: 或者像这样的对话，两者都有优点和缺点。
- start: 4867.775
  end: 4870.095
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Debates has some pluses, dialogues have pluses.
  zh: 辩论有一些优点，对话有优点。
- start: 4870.095
  end: 4872.635
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So I'd be happy to do a lot more with you.
  zh: 所以我很乐意和你做更多。
- start: 4872.635
  end: 4875.095
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think debate, it's not...
  zh: 我认为辩论，这不是……
- start: 4875.095
  end: 4883.915
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sometimes I have said this, this is not the case with you, there are some personalities I have to put up more guardrails, so I prefer debate to dialogue.
  zh: 有时我说过这个，这不是你的情况，有些人我必须设置更多的护栏，所以我更喜欢辩论而不是对话。
- start: 4883.915
  end: 4884.196
  speaker: casey
  en: Yep.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4884.196
  end: 4888.215
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's just some individuals, it's just not helpful to do dialogue.
  zh: 有些人，进行对话就是没有帮助。
- start: 4888.215
  end: 4888.936
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It just isn't.
  zh: 就是这样。
- start: 4888.936
  end: 4889.215
  speaker: casey
  en: Right.
  zh: 对。
- start: 4889.215
  end: 4891.755
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Debate is just more helpful for people to see both sides.
  zh: 辩论对人们看到双方都更有帮助。
- start: 4891.755
  end: 4905.296
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Now however, even with someone you can dialogue with, sometimes debate is helpful because it allows more of a longer flow of an argument and for people to assess the evidences that are put forward, which sometimes dialogue we can get tempted with rabbit trails.
  zh: 然而现在，即使是与你可以对话的人，有时辩论也是有帮助的，因为它允许更长的论证流程，让人们评估提出的证据，而有时在对话中我们可能会被旁枝末节诱惑。
- start: 4905.296
  end: 4908.215
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We can, it's more informal in the exchange.
  zh: 我们可以，在交流中更不正式。
- start: 4908.215
  end: 4909.755
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So debate or dialogue.
  zh: 所以是辩论还是对话。
- start: 4909.755
  end: 4918.275
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think it's important for Catholics and Protestants to talk about Sola Scriptura and also Apostolic Succession and the Papacy.
  zh: 我认为公教徒和新教徒谈论唯独圣经，以及使徒继承和教皇制度很重要。
- start: 4918.275
  end: 4922.715
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I mean, that's really the low chi of where we end up.
  zh: 我的意思是，这真的是我们最终到达的低点。
- start: 4922.715
  end: 4925.315
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It always kind of gets back to these kind of points.
  zh: 它总是回到这些点上。
- start: 4925.315
  end: 4930.535
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I watched your video a long time ago on relics.
  zh: 我很久以前看过你关于圣物的视频。
- start: 4930.535
  end: 4931.455
  speaker: casey
  en: Hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 4931.455
  end: 4935.715
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I thought about doing a rebuttal, but it might almost just be fun just to have another dialogue.
  zh: 我想过要做一个反驳，但可能只是进行另一次对话会更有趣。
- start: 4935.715
  end: 4939.755
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, you could come up with questions and I could just talk with, like, this.
  zh: 就像，你可以提出问题，我可以就这样谈，像这样。
- start: 4939.755
  end: 4944.995
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think this is a good format for that subject, because I don't even think we disagree, like, that much.
  zh: 我认为这对那个主题来说是一个好的形式，因为我甚至不认为我们有那么大的分歧。
- start: 4944.995
  end: 4945.935
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I thought it was interesting.
  zh: 我觉得这很有趣。
- start: 4945.935
  end: 4959.255
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: "'Cause I'll give you this, because this will be interesting to see your thought, 'cause, well, with the thing with the relics, when I was doing my debate with Steve Christy on the Marian dogmas, we were talking, the veneration of Mary came up."
  zh: 因为我会告诉你这个，因为看你的想法会很有趣，因为，好吧，关于圣物的事，当我和史蒂夫·克里斯蒂就玛利亚教义辩论时，我们在谈论，提到了对玛利亚的敬礼。
- start: 4959.255
  end: 4980.515
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I said, "Well, I can understand how people might be spooked by that." But at the same time, I try to ask Protestants, they once again see things from my perspective, like, to try to relate to me, and I gave an example in the debate, like, "What would you do..." Like, people get spooked by Catholics showing veneration to relics, the bones of the saints, this or that, kneeling, praying, kissing them.
  zh: 我说：「好吧，我能理解人们可能会被那个吓到。」但同时，我试图让新教徒，他们再次从我的角度看事情，试图与我产生共鸣，我在辩论中举了一个例子，比如：「你会怎么做……」比如，人们被公教徒对圣物表示敬礼吓到了，对圣徒的骨头，这个那个，跪拜，祈祷，亲吻它们。
- start: 4980.515
  end: 4983.815
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: What would you do if we found the cross of Christ?
  zh: 如果我们找到了基督的十字架，你会怎么做？
- start: 4983.815
  end: 5004.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Like, we dug it up archeologically and we carbon dated it and we knew, yeah, this is the cross of Christ, and you were before that? And what was interesting is in that debate I said, "Would you probably fall to your knees or weep or kiss the cross in veneration of what our savior achieved, our salvation?" And in the debate, Steve Christy was doing this.
  zh: 就像，我们考古挖掘出来，进行了碳测年，我们知道，是的，这是基督的十字架，你站在它面前？有趣的是在那场辩论中我说：「你可能会跪下或哭泣或亲吻十字架来敬礼我们的救主所成就的，我们的救恩吗？」在辩论中，史蒂夫·克里斯蒂在做这个。
- start: 5004.675
  end: 5005.215
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He's going...
  zh: 他在……
- start: 5005.215
  end: 5009.335
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He was shaking his head dramatically, like, no, he wouldn't.
  zh: 他在戏剧性地摇头，好像，不，他不会。
- start: 5009.335
  end: 5012.615
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And I just thought, I don't think a lot of Protestants would agree with that.
  zh: 我只是想，我不认为很多新教徒会同意那个。
- start: 5012.615
  end: 5013.115
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 5013.115
  end: 5016.875
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think you might have a different, maybe a different take, or see where I'm coming from there.
  zh: 我认为你可能有不同的，也许是不同的看法，或者明白我的观点从何而来。
- start: 5016.875
  end: 5017.775
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, I can...
  zh: 是的，我能……
- start: 5017.775
  end: 5019.095
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, that'd be fun to talk about.
  zh: 是的，谈论那个会很有趣。
- start: 5019.095
  end: 5027.375
  speaker: casey
  en: The relics was one that I never thought I would do a video on, but as I'm reading through Martin Chemnitz and others, yeah, it's just one of those...
  zh: 圣物是我从未想过要做视频的主题之一，但当我读马丁·开姆尼茨和其他人的著作时，是的，它就是那些……
- start: 5027.375
  end: 5030.715
  speaker: casey
  en: It's not like the first thing you think of as a Protestant versus Catholic issue.
  zh: 这不像是你想到的新教对公教问题的第一件事。
- start: 5030.715
  end: 5040.995
  speaker: casey
  en: It feels like it's a little further downstream from other things, but it gets into larger issues like the distinction between veneration and worship, which is really important for some of the things we differ on.
  zh: 感觉它比其他事情更下游一点，但它涉及到更大的问题，比如敬礼和崇拜之间的区别，这对我们有分歧的一些事情真的很重要。
- start: 5040.995
  end: 5041.155
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 5041.155
  end: 5043.855
  speaker: casey
  en: I wanted to say too, I agree with you about dialogues and debates.
  zh: 我也想说，我同意你关于对话和辩论的看法。
- start: 5043.855
  end: 5049.655
  speaker: casey
  en: Sometimes in the comments, people will call for us, "Oh, you should do this, the other." Both have their place.
  zh: 有时在评论中，人们会呼吁我们：「哦，你们应该做这个，做那个。」两者都有它们的位置。
- start: 5049.655
  end: 5049.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5049.675
  end: 5056.875
  speaker: casey
  en: The thing about debates where I actually feel more relaxed in a debate sometimes is that you're guaranteed not to be interrupted.
  zh: 关于辩论的事情，有时我在辩论中实际上感觉更放松，因为你保证不会被打断。
- start: 5056.875
  end: 5058.455
  speaker: casey
  en: Well, I guess it's not a guarantee.
  zh: 好吧，我想这不是保证。
- start: 5058.455
  end: 5059.915
  speaker: casey
  en: Somebody could, yeah.
  zh: 有人可能会，是的。
- start: 5059.915
  end: 5060.835
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Hopefully.
  zh: 希望如此。
- start: 5060.835
  end: 5060.855
  speaker: casey
  en: Hope-
  zh: 希望——
- start: 5060.855
  end: 5063.055
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I have been interrupted in debates.
  zh: 我在辩论中被打断过。
- start: 5063.055
  end: 5064.395
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
  zh: 是的，是的，是的。
- start: 5064.395
  end: 5065.835
  speaker: casey
  en: I can see how that could happen.
  zh: 我能看到那可能会发生。
- start: 5065.835
  end: 5069.195
  speaker: casey
  en: But, it just ensures, kind of, the structure, which is nice.
  zh: 但是，它确实保证了某种结构，这很好。
- start: 5069.195
  end: 5074.235
  speaker: casey
  en: But on the other hand, it's also nice to have less structured things that accomplish a different purpose as well.
  zh: 但另一方面，有一些结构较少的事情也很好，它们也能达到不同的目的。
- start: 5074.235
  end: 5077.795
  speaker: casey
  en: So I'm certainly happy to do further dialogues.
  zh: 所以我当然很乐意进行更多对话。
- start: 5077.795
  end: 5082.155
  speaker: casey
  en: Now, we had talked about doing two debates, one on Sola Scriptura, one on Apostolic Succession.
  zh: 现在，我们谈过要进行两场辩论，一个关于唯独圣经，一个关于使徒继承。
- start: 5082.155
  end: 5090.975
  speaker: casey
  en: My understanding is we're not necessarily doing a Sola Scriptura debate in a live context at this point, based upon your last email about that.
  zh: 根据你最后一封关于这个的邮件，我的理解是我们现在不一定要在现场进行唯独圣经的辩论。
- start: 5090.975
  end: 5091.795
  speaker: casey
  en: Is that accurate?
  zh: 这准确吗？
- start: 5091.795
  end: 5093.255
  speaker: casey
  en: Just so people know what to expect.
  zh: 只是让人们知道要期待什么。
- start: 5093.255
  end: 5093.395
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I
  zh: 好吧，我
- start: 5093.395
  end: 5093.695
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, I don't know.
  zh: 好吧，我不知道。
- start: 5093.695
  end: 5094.375
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Well, we might.
  zh: 好吧，我们可能会。
- start: 5094.375
  end: 5096.015
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I don't know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 5096.015
  end: 5097.695
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's really up in the air.
  zh: 这真的还不确定。
- start: 5097.695
  end: 5105.755
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I really have to probably stop scheduling these things because I love them, but they also take up my calendar and things like that.
  zh: 我可能真的要停止安排这些事情，因为我喜欢它们，但它们也占用了我的日程表之类的。
- start: 5105.755
  end: 5106.755
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I would very much...
  zh: 我非常想……
- start: 5106.755
  end: 5109.995
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I love doing, not just debates, but I like being in person with people.
  zh: 我喜欢做，不仅仅是辩论，我喜欢和人面对面。
- start: 5109.995
  end: 5110.015
  speaker: casey
  en: Mm-hmm.
  zh: 嗯。
- start: 5110.015
  end: 5111.815
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I'm just kind of tired of the...
  zh: 我只是有点厌倦了……
- start: 5111.975
  end: 5112.095
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5112.095
  end: 5114.555
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I just have a lot more fun when I'm across the table as somebody.
  zh: 当我和某人面对面坐在桌子两边时，我会有更多乐趣。
- start: 5114.555
  end: 5118.255
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That's why I loved when I was at Emory University a few weeks ago with Nathan Novis.
  zh: 这就是为什么我几周前在埃默里大学与内森·诺维斯在一起时很喜欢。
- start: 5118.255
  end: 5120.935
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We were in person at the medical school to debate abortion.
  zh: 我们在医学院面对面辩论堕胎。
- start: 5120.935
  end: 5123.775
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Just a whole different feel when I could just be across with the person.
  zh: 当我可以和那个人面对面时，感觉完全不同。
- start: 5123.775
  end: 5123.935
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5123.935
  end: 5125.075
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So you're in California.
  zh: 所以你在加利福尼亚。
- start: 5125.075
  end: 5127.495
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We could either have you come down to Catholic Answers.
  zh: 我们可以让你来公教答案。
- start: 5127.495
  end: 5129.295
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We have a great space there to do debates.
  zh: 我们那里有很好的辩论空间。
- start: 5129.295
  end: 5132.115
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Jimmy debated Bart Ehrman in a great church there.
  zh: 吉米在那里的一个很好的教堂与巴特·厄尔曼辩论。
- start: 5132.115
  end: 5133.355
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It is very well done.
  zh: 做得很好。
- start: 5133.355
  end: 5141.175
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Also, I think it could be fun, 'cause you're up in kind of LA metro area, I think, kind of north of there.
  zh: 而且，我认为这可能会很有趣，因为你在洛杉矶都会区，我想，在那里的北边。
- start: 5141.175
  end: 5141.555
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5141.555
  end: 5145.995
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It'd be cool to do, like, a debate, something like this at Biola.
  zh: 在比奥拉做一场辩论，类似这样的事情会很酷。
- start: 5145.995
  end: 5147.635
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You know we live stream it.
  zh: 你知道我们会直播它。
- start: 5147.635
  end: 5150.175
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think we have some Catholic contacts there and others.
  zh: 我想我们在那里有一些公教的联系人和其他人。
- start: 5150.175
  end: 5158.855
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I would love to do something that's in person, but also has a streaming element to it.
  zh: 我很想做一些面对面的事情，但也有直播的元素。
- start: 5158.855
  end: 5161.515
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: It's just all about the scheduling and finding the time.
  zh: 这就是关于安排和找时间的问题。
- start: 5161.515
  end: 5169.895
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But the reason I picked those two topics was, I do think a lot of these debates between Catholics and Protestants, it boils down to Sola Scriptura.
  zh: 但我选择这两个主题的原因是，我确实认为公教徒和新教徒之间的许多辩论，归根结底是关于唯独圣经。
- start: 5169.895
  end: 5173.115
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Some people might think, well, why not also debate the Papacy?
  zh: 有些人可能会想，好吧，为什么不也辩论教皇制度？
- start: 5173.115
  end: 5174.115
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think there's a place for it.
  zh: 我认为这有它的位置。
- start: 5174.115
  end: 5175.835
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I've appreciated the debates you've done on that.
  zh: 我很欣赏你在这方面做的辩论。
- start: 5175.835
  end: 5177.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I have a...
  zh: 但我有一个……
- start: 5177.675
  end: 5189.495
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: My concern always when I do debates with other traditions is, I don't want to debate something where we're too far apart, where it's like if I try to debate the morality of slavery in the Bible with an atheist.
  zh: 我在与其他传统辩论时总是担心的是，我不想辩论我们差距太大的事情，就像如果我试图与无神论者辩论圣经中奴隶制的道德性。
- start: 5189.495
  end: 5193.995
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If he doesn't even believe in God, it's gonna be really hard to even approach the text in a fair way.
  zh: 如果他甚至不相信神，要公平地接近文本都会非常困难。
- start: 5193.995
  end: 5197.975
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So not, like, not that I'm comparing you to an atheist or anything.
  zh: 所以不是，不是说我在把你比作无神论者或什么的。
- start: 5197.975
  end: 5209.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But I feel like the doctrine of the Papacy becomes much more intelligible if one already believes in the doctrine of Apostolic Succession.
  zh: 但我觉得如果一个人已经相信使徒继承的教义，教皇制度的教义就会变得更容易理解。
- start: 5209.675
  end: 5210.475
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5210.475
  end: 5210.775
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: That-
  zh: 那——
- start: 5210.775
  end: 5217.215
  speaker: casey
  en: And I agree with you that both Sola Scriptura and Apostolic Succession are both kind of nerve centers for our differences.
  zh: 我同意你的观点，唯独圣经和使徒继承都是我们分歧的神经中枢。
- start: 5217.215
  end: 5221.055
  speaker: casey
  en: So, I'm in principle open to doing either or both of those.
  zh: 所以，原则上我愿意做这两个中的任何一个或两个都做。
- start: 5221.055
  end: 5221.175
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yep.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5221.175
  end: 5223.455
  speaker: casey
  en: So people watching this know my schedule, I'm actually going...
  zh: 所以看这个的人知道我的日程，我实际上要……
- start: 5223.455
  end: 5225.195
  speaker: casey
  en: So I'm taking May off over the summer.
  zh: 所以我在夏天休五月份的假。
- start: 5225.195
  end: 5226.435
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm not gonna say yes.
  zh: 我不会说是。
- start: 5226.435
  end: 5233.135
  speaker: casey
  en: I'm not planning on saying yes to any debates or dialogues just because I'm kind of disciplining myself to finish a book project in the fall.
  zh: 我不打算答应任何辩论或对话，只是因为我在约束自己在秋天完成一个书籍项目。
- start: 5233.135
  end: 5236.915
  speaker: casey
  en: And then going forward, what I'll probably try to do, similar to what you said, Trent, of just...
  zh: 然后往前走，我可能会尝试做的，类似于你说的，特伦特，就是……
- start: 5236.915
  end: 5239.795
  speaker: casey
  en: They're fun, but they are consuming.
  zh: 它们很有趣，但它们很耗费精力。
- start: 5239.795
  end: 5243.695
  speaker: casey
  en: And we're having our fifth baby, is due in August, so we're gonna have five babies.
  zh: 而且我们要有第五个孩子了，预产期在八月，所以我们要有五个孩子了。
- start: 5243.695
  end: 5244.935
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Also fall.
  zh: 也是秋天。
- start: 5245.755
  end: 5248.735
  speaker: casey
  en: So if people don't see me for a few years, they'll understand.
  zh: 所以如果人们几年看不到我，他们会理解的。
- start: 5248.735
  end: 5255.095
  speaker: casey
  en: But, so what I'm probably thinking of doing is doing one or maybe two per semester.
  zh: 但是，所以我可能在想的是每学期做一个或者可能两个。
- start: 5255.095
  end: 5257.575
  speaker: casey
  en: So, one or two dialogue debates in the fall, one or two in the spring.
  zh: 所以，秋天一两场对话辩论，春天一两场。
- start: 5257.575
  end: 5261.575
  speaker: casey
  en: But I'll reserve one of those slots if you want to do one of those in the fall.
  zh: 但如果你想在秋天做其中一个，我会保留一个位置。
- start: 5261.575
  end: 5262.295
  speaker: casey
  en: So I'll have-
  zh: 所以我会有——
- start: 5262.295
  end: 5262.495
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5262.495
  end: 5262.515
  speaker: casey
  en: "..."
  zh: ……
- start: 5262.515
  end: 5263.075
  speaker: casey
  en: that as an option.
  zh: 那作为一个选项。
- start: 5263.075
  end: 5264.735
  speaker: casey
  en: We can just keep talking to iron out details.
  zh: 我们可以继续谈来敲定细节。
- start: 5264.735
  end: 5266.555
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I say we do that for Sola Scriptura.
  zh: 我说我们为唯独圣经做那个。
- start: 5266.555
  end: 5270.315
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We keep it in person and I don't know.
  zh: 我们保持面对面，我不知道。
- start: 5270.315
  end: 5271.795
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think we reached out to Comfort.
  zh: 我想我们联系了康福特。
- start: 5271.795
  end: 5275.435
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If he hasn't gotten back to us, then, you know, we'll,
  zh: 如果他还没有回复我们，那么，你知道，我们会，
- start: 5275.435
  end: 5279.555
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah, I'd love to set that up with you, and then maybe in the spring we could do something else.
  zh: 是的，我很想和你安排那个，然后也许在春天我们可以做些别的。
- start: 5279.555
  end: 5284.495
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And as your schedule lightens and you feel up for it, we can also just do these interview dialogues.
  zh: 当你的日程轻松一些，你觉得可以的时候，我们也可以做这些采访对话。
- start: 5284.495
  end: 5290.915
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: You have questions, you ask me, and it's a bit more lighter than, like, a full debate or something.
  zh: 你有问题，你问我，这比完整的辩论之类的要轻松一些。
- start: 5291.115
  end: 5296.055
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah, and I thought of this one as more of an interview because I posed those six questions in my last video.
  zh: 是的，我把这个更多地看作是一个采访，因为我在上一个视频中提出了那六个问题。
- start: 5296.055
  end: 5300.855
  speaker: casey
  en: Going forward, I'll probably just treat it more as just a dialogue, just to back and forth-
  zh: 往前走，我可能会把它更多地当作一个对话，就是来回——
- start: 5300.855
  end: 5300.875
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5300.875
  end: 5300.915
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: Sure.
  zh: 当然。
- start: 5300.915
  end: 5300.915
  speaker: casey
  en: ""
  zh: ""
- start: 5300.915
  end: 5302.475
  speaker: casey
  en: share our views and that kind of thing.
  zh: 分享我们的观点和那类事情。
- start: 5302.475
  end: 5303.315
  speaker: casey
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 5303.315
  end: 5306.195
  speaker: casey
  en: Anything else before we sign off?
  zh: 在我们结束之前还有什么吗？
- start: 5306.195
  end: 5307.795
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: No.
  zh: 没有。
- start: 5307.795
  end: 5318.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I think you've given some good advice to people, and I would definitely encourage them to people who are watching to continue to learn and dive into these various arguments.
  zh: 我认为你给了人们一些好建议，我一定会鼓励那些观看的人继续学习并深入研究这些各种论点。
- start: 5318.675
  end: 5322.215
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: If you want to learn more about what I do, I have my channel, The Council of Trent.
  zh: 如果你想了解更多关于我做的事，我有我的频道，特伦特议会。
- start: 5322.215
  end: 5326.795
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: I have a book on Catholicism called The Case for Catholicism.
  zh: 我有一本关于公教的书叫《公教的论证》。
- start: 5326.795
  end: 5333.535
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: There's a chapter on baptism, though I'll probably be revisiting those topics in the future, you know, with more updates and things like that.
  zh: 有一章是关于洗礼的，虽然我可能会在将来重新讨论这些主题，你知道，有更多更新和类似的事情。
- start: 5333.535
  end: 5338.175
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: But yeah, check that out and then definitely, you know, keep checking out Gavin's channel and all the stuff he's doing.
  zh: 但是是的，看看那个，然后一定要，你知道，继续关注加文的频道和他做的所有事情。
- start: 5338.175
  end: 5338.955
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And his books.
  zh: 还有他的书。
- start: 5338.955
  end: 5341.675
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: He's got some neat books on atheism.
  zh: 他有一些关于无神论的很好的书。
- start: 5341.675
  end: 5345.475
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: And then I wanted to chat with you about your book on theological triage at some point.
  zh: 然后我想在某个时候和你谈谈你关于神学分类的书。
- start: 5345.475
  end: 5347.655
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: What are the essential doctrines and what are not?
  zh: 哪些是基本教义，哪些不是？
- start: 5347.655
  end: 5349.795
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: So we'll figure that out in the years to come.
  zh: 所以我们会在未来几年弄清楚这个。
- start: 5349.795
  end: 5350.415
  speaker: speaker_1
  en: We'll figure it out.
  zh: 我们会弄清楚的。
- start: 5350.415
  end: 5351.015
  speaker: casey
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5351.015
  end: 5352.895
  speaker: casey
  en: Much to do, much to come.
  zh: 要做的很多，要来的也很多。
- start: 5352.895
  end: 5353.675
  speaker: casey
  en: So this is all good.
  zh: 所以这一切都很好。
- start: 5353.675
  end: 5355.715
  speaker: casey
  en: So thank you so much, Trent, for the great dialogue.
  zh: 非常感谢你，特伦特，进行了这么好的对话。
- start: 5355.715
  end: 5357.175
  speaker: casey
  en: And thanks everybody for watching.
  zh: 也感谢大家观看。
- start: 5357.175
  end: 5358.035
  speaker: casey
  en: We'll see you next time.
  zh: 我们下次再见。
