Transcript

So there's a funny story behind today's dialogue.

My friend Spencer told me there was a Protestant minister who does jujitsu at his gym, and he made videos about me on his YouTube channel.

And I watched some of them and I thought they were pretty good, so I asked Spencer to get the minister's contact information.

I emailed him and I said, "Hey, why don't I come down to your gym?

We could do a few rolls together and then we could do a dialogue on your channel." So I went down, we got a few rolls in, uh, had a good time, and then I went to his church, which is the Church of Christ, to have a dialogue about the Catholic view of salvation and the Church of Christ view of salvation.

And it ended up having a particular emphasis on the issue of baptism, where we have actually a lot of agreement, but still important disagreements.

So I hope you find today's episode really edifying.

I also want to say I'm really grateful to everyone, our patrons and our supporters who helped us reach our goal of redesigning the studio to do these kinds of interviews here.

We're gonna start work on that very soon to redesign our studio.

But if you wanna help fund our mobile studio, because there's still some guests I would love to have who can't come here, but I would like to be able to go to them and have professional interviews.

And there's some guests where there are certain states or cities or even countries where it would be easier for me to go interview three or four people than try to fly three or four people to come out here if they all live in the same place.

So I'd love for you to support our mobile studio to do these kinds of interviews.

Click the link in the description below.

But thank you guys so much for all your support.

We're gonna be redesigning the studio soon to have in-person dialogues.

And with that said, here is my discussion with Church of Christ minister Marco Arroyo on the issue of salvation, with a particular emphasis on baptism.

A lot of this stuff, when I hear you talk about Catholicism and like the one true church-

Yeah.

...

that Jesus established, we kind of, like, speak the same way sometimes about, like, the principle behind the idea of Jesus's church and how it wasn't meant to be branched off into all these different theological viewpoints, but-

Right.

...

unity in theology and in doctrine is supposed to be in Christ.

And so, uh, maybe we can talk about that too.

Sure.

But anyway, so long story short, I had, like, a year's worth of Bible studies with this, uh, girl and some members of Churches of Christ, and then I was eventually baptized.

But I've been baptized three times in my life.

Mm-hmm.

I was baptized in the Catholic Church as a baby.

Mm-hmm.

My dad's side of the family, very Catholic.

And then I was baptized in the Pentecostal Church, just believing it was like I was already a Christian, just a good thing that Christians should do.

And then I really believed that I needed to be baptized when I was studying with a member of the Church of Christ.

I really believed that at that time, um, I was becoming a Christian.

Uh, that before then with my ideas about baptism, um, e- especially in my second baptism, um, that it just wasn't what the Bible teaches about baptism.

And so I felt the need to be baptized one more time.

So I'm-

And that's what's interesting a little bit about Church of Christ 'cause when we think about baptism, there's really four possible views divided on two questions.

Mm-hmm.

Does baptism save?

Does it spiritually regenerate us?

And should we baptize infants?

So for example, you could say, yeah, baptism, uh, does...

You say baptism doesn't save.

Yeah.

Let's say you don't believe in baptism regeneration.

Then many, like, call it credobaptist.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, the, the credobaptists.

These say, okay, we...

Baptism doesn't save and we don't baptize infants.

Mm-hmm.

Then you'll have other Protestants who will say, "Yeah, baptism doesn't save, but it's a covenant sign, so we're gonna baptize infants." So some Protestants will do that as a, as a sign of entering the covenant-

Yeah.

...

even though baptism doesn't save.

Then so that's one side of it.

Then the other side would be baptism does save and so we baptize infants-

Mm-hmm.

...

which would be Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans.

And then the last quadrant would be baptism does save, but we don't baptize infants, which is Church of Christ.

Hey, guys.

There you go.

It's funny.

I was watching your conversation with, uh, uh, Gavin Ortlund.

At the time you were like, "I don't know." And he was like, "Churches of Christ." And then you were like, "Oh yeah, that's true."

Yeah.

That's always the four...

At the end of the quadrants, I'm like, "That would be...

Oh yeah."

Yeah.

That would be the last part.

I thought about when I saw that video making a silly little edit, like taking that and then me like, "Yeah, Churches of Christ too." And then just me being like...

Totally.

Totally.

Preparation for our conversation.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Thought that'd be funny promo material.

But I was gonna say, have you ever spoken to someone, had a dialogue like this with someone who believes that baptism is necessary, that it saves, but they don't baptize infants?

I have not.

This will be a f- this will be a first dialogue with someone on, on that point 'cause usually it's either-

Yeah.

...

it saves, so we believe in infant baptism, or it's one of the other...

You know, it's one of the other ones.

Wow.

Cool.

And most of the time it's for those who don't believe it doesn't save.

Nine times out of 10 it's with somebody who doesn't baptize infants.

Wow.

That's so cool.

Nine times out of 10.

Yeah.

That's cool to be the, again, the guy in that final quadrant.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right.

Okay.

So, uh, I'll, I'll let you say, um, what is the Catholic plan of salvation?

You have, let's say-

Yeah.

...

this is the scenario.

Alien sinner is the term that gets used sometimes, doesn't know Jesus or anything like that.

Yeah.

And he goes, "I want to know Jesus, Trent." What do you tell him?

"I want to become a Christian."

Well, I would share the gospel with him and the gospel is the good news of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

And so to be saved, you just have to do three things.

You have to repent, you have to receive Christ, and remain united to Christ.

So repent, receive, remain.

Not-

Your liberation is good.

Yeah.

Repent, receive, remain.

That's basically the three steps.

Not necessarily in that order, but repent, receive, remain.

So if it's an adult, like for example, I was baptized when I was 17 years old.

I was raised in a fairly non-religious household.

Dad's Jewish, mom used to be Catholic, then became Christian.

My dad didn't go to temple or anything like that either.

He was just your typical Jew, doesn't, doesn't go to temple or anything like that.

So I was raised in a very non-religious household.

Then I met Catholic teens when I was in high school.

It convicted me of Christianity and then I did more research to look at which different denominations should I join.

So in doing that, I came to see, oh, I...

The, the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus Christ established.

I'm gonna be part of this.

The word Catholic just means universal.

Mm-hmm.

Kata holos, according to the whole.

To be a part of that.

So if I said to just someone right off the street, "You want to be saved?" Repent of...

If you're an adult, like I was, repent of your sins, receive Christ, and we receive the Holy Spirit, receive that in baptism.

So you would repent, receive Christ in faith.

You know, I believe in Jesus.

Mm-hmm.

I believe in the church that he's established and I would receive the Holy Spirit in baptism.

And at the moment of being baptized, all of your sins are washed away.

Original sin, the...

is removed.

You become...

You go from being a child of Adam to being an adopted child of God.

And at that very moment you are baptized, uh, there is absolutely nothing to hinder you entering into heaven.

Then from that time on, however, there is a spiritual battle.

There are powers and principalities.

There's temptations, there's the devil.

There are things always trying to pull us away from Christ, and it is possible for us to forsake our salvation.

But I don't like using the word lose salvation 'cause it's like, you don't lose your salvation like you lose your car keys.

Just doesn't happen like that.

But you can make a conscious action, you can forsake it.

Mm-hmm.

The clearest example would be apostasy.

If you just leave the faith entirely, say, "I don't...

I just...

I don't believe anymore."

Mm-hmm.

But you can also forsake salvation even if you say you believe, if you engage in an...

If you engage in grave sin, then that's saying with your actions something different.

It's like a man who says, "I love my wife," but if he cheats on his wife, he's saying with his actions he doesn't really love her.

Yeah.

And so if he does that, he has to reconcile with his wife.

He has to seek forgiveness.

If we commit a grave sin, and the Bible's clear that not all sins are of equal weight and I think Christians generally believe this, there are some...

We all sin every day.

James says we all make small mistakes.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, we all stumble many small ways, James 3:2.

But there are certainly some sins that are incompatible with the Christian life.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, grave sins like, you know, um, abortion, uh, pornography, uh, fornication.

Uh, there, there are grave sins and that to engage in these things separates us from God.

And if we do these grave things, so you just take even just like adultery as-

Mm-hmm.

...

an example I gave earlier....

we was- we would seek reconciliation with God.

So as a Catholic, if you commit mortal sin, you would seek reconciliation with God through a minister of the Church.

So to be saved in the first instant, you go to a minister of the Church, you receive baptism.

If you fall away, if you reject God through your actions, you approach a minister of the Church, a priest, do the sacraments of confession and confess your sins.

And he stands on the person of Christ, and through him, God forgives our sins.

And so then moving forward, it's just from baptism, there is no work.

The only work you must do to be saved, there's no work, just don't die in a state of mortal sin.

Don't die in a state of rebellion against God.

Mm-hmm.

So that means don't do evil we ought not do, but also fulfill the obligations you have as a Christian.

So for example, God commands us to worship Him on Sundays.

You can't just sleep in on Sundays and say, "Well, you know, God doesn't- doesn't really care."

Mm-hmm.

No, that's an obligation given to us.

The early church received this from the apostles that we are to worship God on Sundays and holy days of obligation.

So for example, I've known some Christians who don't celebrate Christmas because they say, "Well, it's not in the Bible-"

Hm.

"...

to celebrate Christmas.

You know, if Christmas happens to be on a Tuesday, I don't have to go to church." You know, so it's- ...

it- it is always funny when it happens to fall on a Sunday.

Yeah.

Somebody will be like, "Well, why do I got to go?

I just went on Sunday," because it's Christmas.

It-

What happens when it falls on a Sunday?

Oh, yeah.

Well, I think-

That must be rough.

I- Well, I think- well, if it falls- if it falls on a Sunday, it's a two for one.

You celebrate-

Ah.

...

your- your Sunday obligation-

Yeah.

...

and the- the obligation to celebrate Christ's nativity.

It's more if it happens to fall...

Uh, well, I think it was a year or two ago, maybe it was last year, it was- it was on a Monday.

So you- ...

you go on Sunday and then you go on Monday.

Yeah.

So not-

Not two days in a row.

Yeah.

Not two days in a row.

You look at Christians 2,000 years ago-

Yeah.

...

they think we're such cream puff today.

How long ago, Lord?

Yeah, so what I would say is that it's repent, receive, and remain.

Yeah.

So you can make- make it simple or if you say, "Well, what exactly do I have to do?" You could enumerate, "Here's all..." Like, if I were to enumerate, some people will say the Catholic plan of salvation, "Oh, it's so complex."

Mm-hmm.

But really, if you like ha- like if you had to explain to someone and they said, "Like I want to be saved." You say, "Well, believe in Jesus, Romans 10:9, confess with your lips." And they say, "Oh, okay." And then they continue to let's say be an OnlyFans model and do pornography.

You'd say, "Whoa, wait, wait, wait, you can't keep doing that."

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, "Well, okay, well, can I, uh, you know, c- can I do this, for example, this other grave sin?" "Well, okay, not that.

These are- these are things, these are actions that are incompatible with Christian life."

Yeah.

Or if they say, you know, "Okay, great, I'm saved, I never have to go to church again." Well, hold on.

If you're really saved-

Yeah.

...

you would be part of a local community.

So that's what I would call the enumeration problem, that the Catholic plan of salvation can be summarized, repent, receive, remain.

And so you may say, "Well, what do you mean by all of that?" Okay, let me enumerate it.

Yeah.

But I do believe Protestants have to do the same thing, they're just gonna describe it a little differently.

Yeah, definitely.

So yeah, if you were to ask me what the plan of salvation is, I was just talking with Caleb about this, uh, that, um, that a lot of people in Churches of Christ will say it's like five things you gotta do.

And, uh, the- the origin of this was very interesting, uh, that Caleb was just telling me about-

Mm-hmm.

...

that Walter Scott, uh, would say to children, he- it- this was like a memory device for children, that it was hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized.

Mm-hmm.

There's five things you gotta do and then he would have children tell that to their parents.

Again, shout out to Caleb, smart guy.

Yeah, yeah.

But, um, that's what he would do.

And so a lot of people in Churches of Christ, that's how they put it, but you could also condense that down a little bit, um, very similarly, which is you could just say, uh, someone, um...

You know, you really- you could boil it down to like belief, repenting, and baptism essentially.

So when you said, uh, receive Christ, that was belief and baptism?

Yeah.

Okay.

So, well, for an adult.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we do have to have faith in Christ.

We have to, uh, make an act of faith where we're commanded to believe God is one, God is a trinity.

We have to...

And that's interesting here, I think many Protestants might say, "Oh, you just have to believe in Jesus." But then once again, you drill down deeper.

Well, can you deny the Trinity?

Yeah.

Oh, well, you have to believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are- are equal and that they're distinct persons.

And then you were telling me as- as you do it in the classes upstairs-

Yeah.

...

you're doing a class on the Godhead and how that can get complicated.

Yeah.

Yeah, it did.

Yeah.

So it- it- it's funny people will say, "Oh, Catholic is so complicated." But once again, it isn't just believing in Jesus- ...

because we'd say you can't believe-

Yeah.

...

in heresy.

Mm-hmm.

You have to be a true Christian, you can't reject the Trinity, for example.

So I would say repent, receive, so for an adult to believe in Jesus Christ, believe in his church, believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but then to receive the Holy Spirit and receive God's sanctifying grace.

So what Catholics believe is that being saved is not merely a legal declaration.

It's not merely a judge saying, "Not guilty." Now God does make a declaration.

Mm-hmm.

There are forensic aspects to it, similar to how when God created the world, he said, "Let there be light."

Mm.

He made this declaration, then there actually was light.

So we would say that when God- we- we become saved through baptism, our souls really are changed.

We become new creations in Christ.

Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, and that's why it is never repeated.

Indelible?

Uh, indelible in the sense it can't be erased.

Okay.

So the sacraments we believe-

Whoo.

...

that they l- so for example, if you receive the grace of confession, you go to God, you confess your sins, you can go to confession again if you commit another grave sin in your life.

Mm-hmm.

But three sacraments, baptism, confirmation, so receiving the oils of confirmation to strengthen you as a Christian, and holy orders, like becoming a priest, those leave an unchanging mark on the soul.

So once you are baptized...

So for you, you- you will always be a Catholic.

Mm-hmm.

That baptism was- was valid.

I mean, you might have different theology and views about that-

Yeah.

...

but we would s- so for example, if you were to become Catholic, you would not be rebaptized.

Okay.

You would- you would receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, for example, to be in full communion, but if it was determined, there's a record you received a valid baptism.

So we would say, like for an infant, like I said, repent, receive, remain.

It would just be more receive, repent, remain.

So they re- when an infant receives baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit.

Mm-hmm.

They are a Christian.

There is absolutely 100% no doubt about their salvation.

Yeah.

So i- interesting that w- when infants in the early church, if an infant were to die after baptism, the- the church bells would continuously ring for their funerals because it was treated as almost a mini canonization, that there is absolutely 100% no doubt-

Mm-hmm.

...

this child who's- who has been baptized, uh, is in heaven.

Yeah.

And so i- and so it's very interesting that you see even in the ancient Christian catacombs, you'll see inscriptions asking for children who had died.

And of course, 2,000 years ago in the catacombs, this is a time when half of all children died before the age of five.

You had- ...

there was a 50% - 50% mortality rate.

You- only half of all people made it past the age of five 'cause of disease and harsh conditions.

So in the catacombs there are many examples of Christians asking, uh, my Palos, please pray for me.

He is one year and three months.

Mm-hmm.

And the idea is that when these children were baptized, th- there was absolute assurance that they were in heaven praying for their parents who were- who were on Earth.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's how they, you know-

Wow.

...

viewed it and sought for their intercession because there was no doubt these young children assuredly were in heaven.

So can you- can you trace like in your circumstance being baptized-

Yeah.

...

when you were 17, can you- i- in that situation, can you find or track or point out the moment where you were justified, the moment of justification?

Yes.

I w- I would say it was...

So we would say justification and sanctification are really two ways of describing the same thing-

Mm-hmm.

...

because we believe-

Interesting.

So Calvinists are different there, right?

Very much so.

Yeah.

Very much so.

And in fact, the distinction of justification and sanctification really was born more out of the Protestant Reformation.

When you look to the early church fathers, they were really considered-...

the same way of describing things.

Yeah.

Basically, it's synonymous.

Yeah.

So if justification makes you right with God and sanctification makes you holy, well, what makes us right with God is that we become holy.

Mm-hmm.

We become, we become holy as God is holy.

So we, I would say that there was a moment where I received the gift of faith-

Mm-hmm.

...

when I came to believe Jesus is God, before I was baptized.

That's something I didn't merit.

Mm-hmm.

It just came into my heart through study and reflection, and I recognized Jesus as Lord, and then I wanted to seek baptism.

That it was at the moment that I was baptized that I was justified, that I went from being...

Now, if I were to have died before receiving baptism, the church has a very long tradition of something called the baptism of desire-

Mm-hmm.

...

that if someone says, "You know, I wanna be a Christian and I believe in Jesus and I want baptism," and you get hit by a bus, or 2,000 years ago, hit by a chariot-

Yeah.

...

uh, this is a very long tradition in the church, that those people were still buried in Christian cemeteries because it was recognized that they were...

The term we use is a catechumen, one who is seeking-

Yeah.

...

to be baptized.

And we would recognize that because they desired baptism, God is able to provide the graces of baptism to them, knowing that they're going to die before they receive it.

Yeah.

So for-

We've got something similar like that, by the way.

Yeah.

Uh, that sometimes an example of, like, Abraham is pointed out, that-

Right.

...

God sees the action with Abraham and Isaac in the sacrifice as, "Okay, he's going to do it.

I know he's going to do it."

Right.

And so he sees that differently.

Like, it's, you know, the old thing is, uh, the hypothetical that gets thrown out is, like, someone's about to go get baptized, but they slip and fall, they hit their head and they die or something like that.

And we would call that baptism of desire.

Okay.

And there's very, uh, long recognition of that in the church's history.

Uh, so there I would say that I had the gift of faith and I sought baptism.

And when I was baptized...

And what's great about this is that this...

We do believe salvation is a process, not a moment.

But there is an initial moment when you go from being a child of Adam, someone who is in original sin, someone who by their natural powers can never merit heaven.

There's nothing special about you to merit it.

Mm-hmm.

That from there, the waters of baptism wash away sin.

You are born again, as John 3:5 says.

And you receive, you receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38.

That's so similar.

Exactly.

So similar.

Yeah.

So we, so we would say that, that that is...

That would be the mom- that was the moment of initial justification.

So as Catholics, like for example, we might quote James chapter two, when it says, "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone." The church is very...

The church, the Council of Tre- not my show, but the 16th century Catholic-

CIO.

Yeah.

The, um, the ecumenical council held in the wake of the Protestant Reformation, that verse in James, "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone," it is only si- uh, excuse me.

It is only cited in the council to describe works we do in cooperation with the grace of God after baptism.

Mm.

That when we do good work...

So Ephesians 2:10, for ex-

Yeah.

Ephesians 2:8-10.

People will take that and say, "Oh, you know, we're saved by grace.

It's not of any works."

Yeah.

"We were...

They're works that were prepared for us."

They try to use that against you.

Yeah.

Like, as much as they try to use it against religion.

Right.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Because what we would say is, "Well, no, we agree." Like, when I-

I don't have a problem with that passage.

Yeah.

And neither did Martin Luther, 'cause Luther believed that baptism saves.

And Luther said, "Yes, baptism saves us." Ephesians 2:8-9, "We are not saved by works." All that shows is that baptism is not a work.

That-

Yeah, exactly.

It just shows then that, you know, we are not saved by works.

We are saved by baptism.

So some Protestants will take from that argument, therefore, we are not saved by baptism.

Yeah.

Uh, and they would say, "No, no, we're not saved by works.

Baptism saves, therefore baptism is not a work." It is just something that we receive.

Otherwise, if, if you put it as, "Well, it's something you do, it's something you do to be saved," by that definition, every Protestant believes in works-based salvation.

Yeah.

Something you do.

Do I do something when I say, "I love you, Lord.

I believe in you," when I listened to the gospel, when I thought about it-

Yeah.

...

when I profess faith?

Any...

You could always describe anything we do as a human action.

Yeah.

Or Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

Right.

John 6:29.

Yeah.

So is belief a work?

Well, it's not...

It is not a merely human work.

Yeah.

It is a work that we do only because God's grace makes it possible-

Mm-hmm.

...

and we cooperate with that grace.

We choose to allow God...

So what I would say is that a human being has no ability to merit heaven.

There's nothing we can do to earn heaven, but there are things we can do to de-merit.

There's things we can do to earn hell.

Mm-hmm.

We can work our way to hell.

You can't work your way to heaven.

Wages of sin is death.

Yeah.

John 6:23.

Yeah.

So when, when James 2:24 talks about we are justified by works and not by faith, it's talking about how the works we do after baptism genuinely please God.

Mm-hmm.

And so in doing that, it makes us become holier.

It increases our justification.

So my friend Jimmy Akin gives this analogy for justification.

Consider a light.

So a light can have two qualities.

The light can be its purity and its radiance.

So you could have a light that is very, very white and pure, but it's very, very dim.

Mm-hmm.

Or you could have a very radiant light that's not very white.

It's kind of orange-ish or reddish.

It's kind of a dirty light.

So we believe that when we are baptized, we receive the pure light of Christ.

It's, it's pure justification.

There's nothing we can do to increase that.

There's just a justification of Christ that we receive in baptism.

However, the radiance of that in our lives-

Mm-hmm.

...

uh, wha- how much that is evident in that, in the holiness that we do, that radiance of it can increase or decrease.

Similar to when Jesus says, "Let your light shine before men."

Mm-hmm.

You know, or the works that you do.

Or how God, you know, in Romans chapter two, talking about those who will be rewarded for their works, that Jesus even uses the Greek word misthos to talk about those who do good works will receive a wage or a reward.

So the idea here is that after baptism, the works we do, God is pleased by them.

God doesn't have to pay us.

He doesn't have to reward us.

So it's not a wage we earn.

It's just the fact that He's our father in heaven and He has said, "I love you." It's like when my kids do something good and I ask them to do something and they do it.

I'll reward them.

Mm-hmm.

I don't have to legally.

But it's because I made a promise to them and I'm their father and I love them.

Yeah.

Because if I paid them based strictly on the value of the work- ...

they're four.

It's not gonna be worth anything.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's worth something to me because they're my children.

Like, if some other four-year-old tried to get me to pay for something, I'd say, "That's terrible."

Yeah.

Yeah.

I talk about this sometimes that, like, uh, when your kid brings you home the macaroni frame thing-

Yes.

...

objectively, it sucks.

Yeah.

It's not nice.

Yeah.

But it's so beautiful to you and you love it and you applaud them for it and you're so...

Yeah, you're happy about it.

And that's what we believe then about works that are done after baptism.

Mm-hmm.

They...

There are no good works you do to be saved after baptism.

It's not like you have to...

I have to feed this many poor people or I have to do this many good deeds.

Yeah.

That, that would be awful.

That would be such a scrupulous nightmare to think, "I have to do an arbitrary number of good deeds."

Mm-hmm.

But when we do do works of holiness, it's essentially, in fact, our, you know, martial arts or weightlifting, whatever it may be-

Yeah.

...

it's essentially spiritual weightlifting, because we live in a world...

I mean, Paul said over to the Corinthians and says that Satan is the god of this world.

You know, we are, we are really in spiritual danger.

He can't pull us away from God against our will.

Mm-hmm.

But he can, he can tempt us to freely choose to follow him.

Yeah.

You're, you're reminding me of the, the misuse by reformed people in John 10 there, where Jesus said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand." He's not saying anything about whether or not-

Right.

...

a believer could depart from Jesus, just that a third party can't come in.

Exactly.

The devil can't drag you, kicking and screaming

Right.

Or people say, "You know, my sheep hear my voice.

That's...

And they follow me."

Yeah.

That's absolutely right.

But the question is, who chooses to remain a sheep?

Mm-hmm.

It's...

When you look at a lot of those promises, like, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me," um-There was a, uh, Dale, er, his name was Dale Moody.

He was, he was a Baptist who was actually writing on this, who came to reject the idea you couldn't lose your salvation.

He has a whole, whole book on the subject.

And he points out these promises are always in the present tense.

It doesn't say in scripture, "Anyone who believed in me-"

Mm-hmm.

"...

shall never fall away, or will, will listen to me.

He who believes me."

Mm-hmm.

"He who follows me." That the promises are for those who are the current followers of Jesus Christ.

Mm-hmm.

That's a great point.

So that's why when we're talking about, you know, these kinds of works that we do, the only work one must do after baptism to be saved is to not die in a state of grave sin.

Just don't die in a state of grave sin.

And we can look in our souls and say, "Okay, there's some things I do, these are minor offenses," what we would call venial sin, the, the, the things we do every day where we fall short.

But I think every Christian knows deep down there's some serious violations of the Ten Commandments you'd say, "Wow, that was really bad." For example, we don't ask God to forgive every individual sin we commit during the day.

Mm-hmm.

When would we get anything done?

You know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But there are some serious sins we feel like, "Oh, I need to ask God forgiveness for this."

Yes, 100%.

And so what we would say is just don't die in a state of refusing to ask for that forgiveness.

And so don't, don't remain, don't do the bad things and stay in the bad state, and don't refuse to do the good things, like worshiping God on Sunday in the community at church, or receiving Jesus in the Eucharist.

In fact, the Catholic Church only obliges you to receive the Eucharist once a year.

Hmm.

You just-

Really?

Well, there's, I mean, there's some part, places around the world where there aren't as many, much access to priests, or someone could be in a state of mortal sin, not have, you know, not feel like they can approach, uh, the sacrament.

But, so while you have to worship God every Sunday, uh, you only have to receive the Eucharist once a year.

Mm-hmm.

But you do...

But we believe that because-

Mm-hmm.

...

John 6, Jesus is very clear, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you."

Mm-hmm.

And so we take that just as the very first Christians did, that Jesus, he is the Passover lamb, you know, he, he died, you know, his legs are not broken, he's a male without blemish, he, you know, he died as the new Passover lamb.

So the old Passover lamb dies and then is eaten.

We believe that Christ dies for our sins so death passes over us, and he is also received under the form of bread and wine.

And so that's a very important part of the Catholic plan of salvation, and it has been.

The very first Christians recognized the, you know, the importance of the Eucharist, and that's why-

Very interesting.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that, that's actually a good point to transition here.

Um, after, now that we've spent, uh, a good enough time, uh, dunking on the Calvinists and everyone else, uh, who denied that baptism is necessary-

Yes.

...

um, I, I think our biggest point of divergence now here is when it comes to who needs baptism.

And with, this is where it gets weird.

Yeah.

The language gets weird because-

Yes, it does.

...

we would both say baptism saves.

Yeah.

Baptism saves, but you would baptize everybody, well, I, everyo- as far as age goes.

Uh, and w- I would only baptize people who I would say are accountable or-

Mm-hmm.

...

age of accountability, which that's weird too.

And I'm very happy about getting, um, both getting your perspective-

Yeah, sure.

...

but also getting cross-examined a little bit about this.

Sure, yeah.

Because there, there are questions I have myself about all this stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And, and a lot of people were like, "Uh, are you sure you want to, uh, talk to, uh, Trent Horn" or something like that.

I'm like, "Dude, I don't..." Again, like I-

Yeah, that's fine.

...

um, the church that I was part of when I was part of Pentecostal, that Pentecostal kind of church, um, when I really was convinced that, uh, the truth of like, you know, I don't...

U- uh, well yeah, about a lot of stuff, like I don't think the sinner's prayer is in the Bible and I don't think that's valid at all.

Ther- there are other Protestants who have, who have recognized that and say that.

And, and-

I haven't noticed it, and there's a little bit of a trend away from that.

I, I think even Ray Comfort, uh, you know, the, the, the w- Way of the Master, uh, you know...

What, what does, what does Ray always...

Who he always says, uh, "Are you a liar?

Are you a thief?" "All the Ten Commandments." You know.

Uh, I, I love Ray.

Well, I've, I've asked him-

Yeah.

...

to be on my show and he's, he's kept declining, but-

Ah.

...

maybe one day.

Maybe one day.

Um, but I think he also doesn't, doesn't prefer-

Okay.

...

the sinner's prayer either, so yeah.

Yeah, so when I realized that wasn't in the Bible, I was...

And, and then I saw a, a much better path and what I believe the Bible teaches on how to become a Christian, when I started studying with members of the Church of Christ, I thought, "Well, this is gonna suck, this transition, but it's, it's what's right." And-

Yeah.

I'm just not scared of, uh, the truth.

I don't know why people, um...

Uh, there's some people that wouldn't do stuff because of the scrutiny of it or they're-

Yeah, yeah.

...

gonna have people...

I don't know, it just doesn't bother me.

I'm not scared of it.

So I'm happy to get...

And I want you to kind of cross-examine me-

Yeah, let's chat.

...

a little bit about it in a little bit.

So, um, what is the basic, um, the basic reason for baptizing infants for you?

The basic reason for baptizing infants is the same reason we would baptize every single human being.

Yeah.

That we are born in a state of original sin.

So this is not an actual sin that we have committed.

It is a deprivation of God's grace.

So we would say that Adam and Eve, they had preternatural gifts, uh, given to them, the fact that they lived in friendship and harmony with God.

And so those gifts would have prevented them from dying, for example, from suffering from disease, uh, and they lived in friendship with God and had these gifts, this grace, this gift of God.

But because of their rebellion and rejection of God, they lost those preternatural gifts.

They lost that special grace and friendship with God, and they were unable to pass that on to their descendants.

Mm-hmm.

And so when the Bible speaks about Adam's sin and about us, you know, our relationship to Adam, that's what's being described here, that that...

Because the Bible says that we, "You do not punish children for the sins of their parents."

Mm-hmm.

So original sin is not God punishing us for what Adam did, it's Adam essentially punishing us-

Yeah.

...

through his own decision.

It would be like if a man won the lottery and his descendants are gonna be set for life, but then he cheats to try to get more money and then he's caught and has to forfeit all of his ear- his winnings.

In doing that, his chil- his descendants now suffer because of that, but not through any fault.

Yeah.

But just because they could have been, they could have received riches but instead now they receive, um, a lack of it, so-

They were rich kids, now they're poor kids.

Exactly.

And so when Adam and Eve were in God's friendship, we were rich.

Mm-hmm.

But then when they rejected, we became spiritually poor.

Okay.

And so because of that, that's afflicted every single human being, every human being, uh, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

That's a separate bearing issue we can always get into.

Mm-hmm.

But tho- but every human being is afflicted with original sin because of that.

And so the antidote then to original sin is baptism.

When we receive baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive God's sanctifying grace, we are no longer children of Adam, we become adopted sons and daughters of God.

Mm-hmm.

And nothing can ever undo that.

No horrible sin you commit ever requires you to be rebaptized.

Indel- indelibly marked.

Yeah, u- exactly.

It leaves an indelible mark on the soul.

And so we would just say that if bap- that 1 Peter 3:21, if baptism is what saves us, and we would say every single human being, including infants-

Mm-hmm.

...

stand in need of salvation, because you cannot get to heaven on your own human merits, because every human being stands in need of salvation, every human being ought to be baptized.

Mm-hmm.

And so that's, that's what the Church has taught, yeah, for 2,000 years.

Okay.

Um, so is basically the second step in, like...

'Cause like the softest form of the answer of like what we get from Adam is probably, we get the fallen, like the world, we get the world where sin is introduced-

Mm-hmm.

...

and stuff like that.

I think that's probably the softest form of where people say what we get from Adam, right?

Right.

We just get the world where sin exists, basically-

That's right.

...

and suffering and death and stuff like that.

So this is like the second step, which is, it's not just the world, but it's us as well, that we don't...

We're not born with, uh, grace privilege-

Yeah.

...

I guess in a sense.

Al- although what I would say is that death-...

existed before the fall.

So I-

Oh, right.

Right.

'Cause I would say-

That's right, I forgot about this.

Yeah.

I would say that death ex- and I think it's very clear there was some kind of death whenever Adam and Eve invented the salad.

Yeah.

That God says, "Take these green leaves-"

.

"...

and eat." They're, they're not gonna last long in your digestive system.

Uh, so there was death, but the death that came about from the fall was human death.

That by the lacking these gifts of God, the human body became corruptible, human nature changed.

Now, baptism doesn't fully undo the change in human nature.

We don't become invulnerable-

Uh-huh.

...

but it does restore our souls.

So, is that how basically how you would argue for the presence of death before Adam?

Yes.

'Cause like, you know, there's guys like Ken Ham who-

Were you there?

Were you there 6,000 years ago?

Yeah.

Ken Ham would be like, th- that's the basic argument that, um, that it has to be six literal days because therefore you would have death before Adam, before Adam's fall.

Yeah.

That's one of the arguments.

But there's no reason to believe that the death that, what Paul is talking about in Romans 5 and what's being referred to there, is only...

is all death-

Mm-hmm.

...

rather than just human death.

Interesting.

That it was...

It was human beings that received-

Yeah.

...

that received the special grace of God.

And, and-

And Catholics can believe what they want-

Oh, yeah, yeah.

...

as, as far as that, right?

Yeah.

The Catholics are free to believe in young earth creationism.

There are Catholics who believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.

Yeah.

There are Catholics, uh...

Father Georges Lemaître, he was a Catholic monsignor, a priest, who essentially discovered what was now called the big, Big Bang Theory.

Mm-hmm.

He called it the primeval atom, the idea that the universe began from a single point and-

Yeah.

...

expanded.

It was another physicist, Fred Hoyle, who was a De- not a Deist, he was an atheist, and he made fun of the theory.

.

Because he didn't like a Catholic priest saying there was a beginning.

He thought the universe was eternal.

Oh, okay, okay.

And so he said this is just that Big Bang Theory of Father Lemaître.

Really?

So the memes always win.

Yeah.

The memes always win.

Yeah, exactly.

So then so he called it that and the name stuck.

He ended up becoming a deist actually, based on the design in the universe.

He didn't become Christian, but Hoyle came to believe there was a God.

He couldn't think that all of this happened without, without design.

Okay.

Uh, so yeah.

So Catholics are free to believe either thing.

There was a cardinal during the trial of Galileo, Caesar Baronius, who once said, uh, that...

Oh, was it...

It was him?

No, it wasn't Gus.

It was him.

"The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." You know?

Wow.

So it's like you're free, you're free to believe either.

Yeah.

But, but I do believe when it comes to baptism especially, that it's necessary to undo the curse of spiritual death that came to all of Adam's descendants.

Okay.

And that all of us stand in need of that.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Th- that fascinates me.

Um, that fascinates me.

So, uh, grade my, grade my arguments a little bit then.

Sure, yeah.

Or, uh, critique them a little bit.

.

So basically I would say that, uh, God knows, uh...

S- God knows that children are born with this, uh, moral ignorance, incapability.

And I think that there's enough passages for me in the Old Testament where God seems to, at the very least, desire to pass over them in judgment because of...

because that's their state.

Mm-hmm.

And, um, I, I don't know how solid this argument is, but, you know, like you, you probably hear the passages like the Deuteronomy 1, "They don't know good from evil.

They're going to enter into the promised land, not the rest of you who actually did rebel-"

Right.

"...

against God." Uh, like in Jonah 4, the very last verse of Jonah, um, there he says, you know, "There's 120,000 persons who don't know their right hand from their left and much livestock.

Shouldn't I have pity on them?" And I think, uh, I used to think that there was 120,000 people in Nineveh, but I think that's in reference to, you know, little children and babies.

Mm-hmm.

Um, but I don't know.

I think I see this pattern in scripture-

Right.

...

where God wants to pass over them in judgment because they don't deserve the same wrath as everyone else.

And maybe this is a, a straw man that I have in my head, but it seems that, like, the idea of infant ba- baptism, uh, lumps infants and every non, every non-Christian together in a way that I don't know that God does.

So what I would say is there is a, a kernel of understanding here that I agree with.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so in the Catechism-

I'll start with the kernel.

Yeah.

That's good.

The Catechism of the-

.

...

Catholic Church, paragraph 1257, it says that salvation comes from the sacraments, specifically baptism, but that God is not bound by the sacraments.

So God is free to save people however God wants to.

Okay.

Uh, so to say that, well, God cannot...

Someone who is not baptized, uh, for example, definitely cannot be saved, well, God can choose to save whoever he wants.

Yeah.

Uh, similar to someone who, let's say they were born in a time and place where they could have never heard of Jesus, like a Native American-

Mm-hmm.

...

in the year 500 in the United States-

Yeah.

...

or, or something like that, uh, who had never heard of Christ.

Uh, are they damned because of something they had no control over?

And some Christians will say, "Yes, God chose that." And they have more of an exclusivist theology say, "Yeah, they, they're...

They are a sinner and God declared this and, you know, praise be to God." Other...

Many other Christians though would hold to an inclusivist view.

Uh, and of course that's what I hold to, it's what the Catholic Church holds to, uh, and it's what the Bible teaches.

You know, in Romans 2, for example, Paul says that those who do not have the law written on stone, which would be the, the Jews, the Ten Commandments, he talks about how the gentiles have the law written on their hearts.

And by their conscience they will either be accused or excused.

Mm-hmm.

So God is able to judge people based on their ignorance.

You know, were, you know, were they ignorant through no fault of their own or did they choose to remain in ignorance saying, "Yeah, I could have learned about Jesus, but I don't want to deal with all of that.

That's too much trouble." That, that's the difference we would call between vincible ignorance, ignorance you could overcome-

Mm-hmm.

...

if you chose to, and ignor- invincible ignorance, ignorance you could not possibly have overcome.

Okay.

So it does tie in a little bit with...

Like sometimes...

I, I think you get this too.

Uh, sometimes people will say baptism is not necessary because of the, the thief on the cross.

Right.

And there's a million problems with that.

Number one, not only is it not new covenant, uh, instru- new covenant that they were under, but-

Right.

...

even if baptism were required, I'm not gonna be the guy that goes, "Jesus decided to save that guy by word alone." And go, "Hey, Jesus, you can't...

You can't break the rules."

It's very presumptive.

Yeah.

Because what we're seeing here would be an act of God's extraordinary mercy beyond the ordinary means-

Yeah.

...

he gave us.

Who am I to tell Jesus, "You can't break the rules, Jesus"?

Right.

So if God...

Just because God can act via extraordinary means does not give us the right to neglect the ordinary means.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So for example, the fact that an...

if an infant can go to heaven without faith in Christ...

Now there are some Protestants who believe infants can have faith, that's a different subject to get into.

But you don't-

But, uh, no, I would not...

I, I would not say that they have what we...

what we would define as faith in the sense of, uh, kind of-

The kind that you and I could have.

Yeah, that we can have.

The act, act of trust in God.

Uh, so just because a infant can go to heaven even though they don't believe in Jesus doesn't mean, "Oh, I don't have to believe in Jesus 'cause they can go to heaven."

Yeah.

That's extraordinary.

God has given us the ordinary means.

So from the Catholic perspective on baptism and infants then, I would say yes, for all people there...

God has given...

made it possible for them to be saved.

Because God loves all people, he wants all people to be saved, so he has made it possible for every single person to be saved.

Mm-hmm.

And God will judge them based on what they were given, what, what-

Okay.

...

what means of revelation they were given.

That's-

Do you treat it like a certainty?

That's, that's the next step.

Okay.

So however, just because there is a possibility, it does not mean that's a certainty or even a probability.

So the next question becomes, how do we make sure that for human beings it goes beyond just a mere possibility to a certainty?

And the answer to that is clear from the first century onward, is baptism.

Baptism is what gives us that certainty.

Or at the very least someone actively seeking baptism-

Mm-hmm.

Like baptism of desire.

But baptism is, is what gives that certainty.

So I would say that I treat all people......

infants or non-Christian adults in a far off country the same, in that there is a possibility for all...

any of them to be saved.

Mm-hmm.

There's a possibility for any of them to be saved.

But to raise that from possibility to certainty, however, uh, that would require baptism.

So the church, for example, says when it comes to unbaptized infants, w- the church teaches that we do not have a revelation from God that they are definitely saved, but we can have a hopeful trust based on many of the things that you've described.

Mm-hmm.

We can have a hopeful confidence, but not a certainty.

But so once again, just because God can intervene extraordinarily there, we know the ordinary means that God gave us.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, and I would say that, uh, for...

that for infants to say, to say that they definitely will go to heaven, I would say, "Well, what is the reason for that?" If we say it's because they haven't committed wrongdoing, well, now we're just appealing to their human merits.

And no human merit can attain heaven.

If we say it's because God is not going to judge them like he judges others, we're starting to pre- If we say that with certainty, one must be careful to presume with certainty what God will or won't do.

Uh, I'm only willing to do that based on what God has definitively revealed.

Mm-hmm.

If we arrive at that, oh, well, God won't judge infants.

He's not going to judge them.

He's going to save them.

I would say, how do you know that?

And if we're just getting there by logical arguments based on God's mercy and based on this-

Mm-hmm.

...

very, very dangerous to go that indirect route, indirect route to say God will definitely do X.

Okay.

I'm only gonna say God definitely does X when God says he's gonna definitely do X.

Yeah.

That's, that's where I would come from.

Well, let me give you the second side of the argument.

Sure.

The second part of my argument.

Yeah, yeah.

I think that there's, there's, there's two things that, uh, that I've been able to put together.

That one, I see that God has this consistent desire to want to pass over in judgment on infants in, you know, on n- nations with uncircumcision in the Old Testament, let's say.

Um, but also though at the same time for...

when I look at the things that merit wrath, we talked about meriting God's wrath or meriting-

Mm-hmm.

...

uh, death, um, like in Romans...

Well, you talked about Romans 2 a little bit and Romans 1, 2, and 3, when there's that indictment of, uh, of the Gentiles and the Jews.

Right.

Um, it seems like everything that merits wrath, I don't know how any of that applies to infants.

I just...

I think that there's like an emptiness and a lack of what i- if...

I just struggle seeing when I read scripture of God saying, "Here's the problem that infants have."

Hmm.

Like in judgment in the Old Testament, God says, "Here's the problem, and I want infants to be spared from this."

Right.

Like, you know, with Joshua and the conquest, for example, um, this is one thing.

Oh, I won't-

Well-

I won't get too ahead of myself.

Sure.

Because, uh, there's like the...

I don't know if you've ever dealt with like the morality of God doing that on infants.

I guess the can be saved and leaving the room for that works, but-

Well, in the, the conquest narrative-

Yeah, let's talk about that now.

Well, the conquest narratives do talk, give commands about slaying young and old.

Yeah.

But, but what does that mean about God if-

Leave, leave none that breathes.

Yeah, but that's what I mean.

If...

What does that mean about God if, if these babies that never stood a chance, let's say-

Right.

...

they're just all at the, at completely at the mercy of hopefully God will do this?

Mm-hmm.

Now are you talk...

Wait, are you talking about-

I-

What does it mean about God about the commands given in Joshua or about their salvation after death?

About their salvation after death.

Mm-hmm.

Based off of the killing that God was commanding.

Oh, okay.

So that's a little bit different, but it's somewhat related because God knows either causes or allows the deaths of infants every day-

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

...

all, all over the world, far more than just in the, the conquest of Joshua.

Uh-

I, I mean like in the prescription of-

Yeah.

...

of the conquest, like kill men, women, old and young.

Mm-hmm.

Um, if these babies that are born with original sin, it just feels like they never stood a chance.

Well, but I...

Right, but I guess then one would take the question back further and say, does God owe anyone heaven?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And in fact, the medieval theologians, they, they wrestled with this same question.

And the concept they came up to resolve the tension was the concept of limbo.

So the way that...

'Cause they had the, the same re- They, they had the same concern you have.

Mm-hmm.

Which is, okay, well, what does God do?

God doesn't owe heaven to anybody.

You can't, you can't stand before God like the boss ba- Like imagine a boss baby who can talk.

Yeah.

Be like, "I never did anything wrong my whole life." "You have to let me in." God doesn't have to let anybody into heaven.

Uh-huh.

Even a baby.

He doesn't like...

To say God has to let a human into his domain, that's not how it works.

Yeah, yeah.

So God doesn't owe heaven to any...

God doesn't owe eternal bliss to any of his creatures.

Mm-hmm.

That is purely a gift.

He does not owe it in any way, shape or form.

And so the medieval theologians, well, Augustinian were really struggling with saying, "Okay, yeah, God doesn't owe heaven to these children, but they haven't done any...

They haven't committed a mortal sin." They haven't committed a...

Uh, they may have died in original sin, but they didn't commit a mortal sin.

They didn't commit actual sin.

And so the resolution they came up with is limbo.

Limbo is not a separate place from heaven and hell.

Limbo comes in the Latin word limbus, which means edge or border.

And it's just the idea is that lim- limbus or limbo was the outer rim of hell, but it was a place of perfect natural happiness.

Mm-hmm.

So it's a...

It was a place where you, you didn't suffer, and in fact you were perfectly naturally happy, but you did not experience the beatific vision.

You didn't have the supernatural happiness of dwelling with God, you just had unending perfect happiness.

How interesting.

And so that was how they resolved.

So when people said, "Oh, they believe babies went to hell," well, the outer border where, where you don't suffer but you don't experience God.

The only thing I've known about limbo is Inception, Inception's rendering of limbo.

"You'll end up in limbo if you die in this dream." You'll be there forever.

I'm, "Fu-..." So that...

So that was the idea behind limbo-

Interesting.

...

was that...

Was to resolve the very tension you're discussing here.

Uh-huh.

Uh, and limbo however has not been...

It was never infallibly defined by the church as a dogma you must believe.

Uh-huh.

It was one that theologians propose as a solution to this problem.

And it's one you can still believe if you choose to.

The church hasn't resolved what happens.

Mm-hmm.

But I would say the more popular answer now among the magisterium and developing in its theology is a hopeful trust, but not a definite certainty for unbaptized infants.

Well, without straying too much, uh, from, uh, from this part of it-

Yeah.

...

um, what would you say...

Um, what does the idea of limbo...

Well, how do I word this rightly?

Well, I don't-

Like, is it like a...

Is it something that they reasoned towards in saying, "I think a s- a place like this must exist because of this situation?" You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It, it was a way of them trying to resolve God's justice with what's been given in divine revelation with salvation.

So they think, like, by necessity there must be...

Like it's kind of like how Dennis Prager goes, uh, "If God is just, then there must be an afterlife." He doesn't really feel like he has-

Right.

...

any example of the afterlife in scripture, but it's a logical conclusion.

And, and now the argument though about wrath, um, I don't think that gets you all the way to, well, if it...

We don't have to baptize babies because they're definitely going to go to heaven.

At best, the argument would only show that they're not going to hell.

Mm-hmm.

Because you might say, okay, well God in his mercy, these children who have died, uh, you might say for example either they go to limbo, which is they might get perfect natural happiness, or God may simply not give them eternal life.

They've only had one life.

They won't suffer.

That's the annihilationist position.

Mm-hmm.

So someone could say, "Well, I believe these babies, you know, they never committed a sin, so they're not gonna go to hell, but God is not going to resurrect them."

Yeah.

At the end.

They just cease to exist.

They, they will just cease to exist.

So they will not suffer for anything they've done.

However, they won't go to heaven because there's nothing about them that merits heaven.

Uh, so we can't say that.

So I would say that the argument about God's justice and where wrath is inflicted, it does not get you to the conclusion, oh, well, babies will definitely go to heaven.

Rather, I think the only safe bet for that is to say, well, God has said baptism saves.

It saves us from original sin.

It is meant for everyone.

Like in the early church, for example, there's no...

The only debate over infant baptism in the early church-...

was, there were some people who said, "Well, you should baptize infants eight days after they're born-"

Mm-hmm.

"...

because baptism replaces circumcision, and circumcision happened eight days later."

Mm-hmm.

Of course that was, that was just for health reasons, for babies.

Right.

The, the blood clotting thing.

Exactly.

Yeah.

And, and so what, uh, the early Christians said was, "No, no, no.

Uh, that was, it replaces it." But because infant mortality rates were so high in the ancient world, they believed no, baptize babies as soon as they are born.

The only other abuse that tended to happen in the early church was because penances, like when you apologize for, you know, sorrowful for sin, you want to make up for what you've done, um, penances for sin in the early church sometimes could be severe.

So some people tried to game the system-

Mm-hmm.

...

by just waiting to be baptized right before they die.

Yeah.

And that goes against the entire spirit of God's grace and what's being given to us- ...

in the sacraments.

Yeah.

But typically when it came to infants, uh, the idea here was no D- Debate was just don't wait eight days.

Baptize them as soon as you can.

I mean, our child, our third child, was born unintentionally at home.

So this was during COVID.

Oh man.

And we were-

What a rough time to have a kid.

Yes.

This was during COVID, September 2020.

And we were waiting, uh, so we were waiting at home.

I was just like, "Oh," we really didn't want to go into the hospital.

Yeah.

Uh, we were planning to go, but we were just like, "Oh, I don't know." And so we, we didn't want to be there as longer than we had to.

And then the labor just caught up with us.

A- And suddenly we're in our bedroom and here comes the baby.

And we have 911 on the phone and I-

Baby shifted gears.

He, he comes right out.

It was like literally 40-

Whoa.

It was like 40 seconds of labor.

You delivered your child?

I, I am on his birth certificate.

Says under who delivered it is my name.

Whoa.

So I, it was just me, caught him, and if I was worried for like a few seconds he didn't do anything.

Yeah.

And then he's alert and he starts crying and then we pass him off.

And then I was thinking, "Okay, I want to cut the umbilical cord." So I'm like, "Okay, what do I..." And I'm all like frazzled and like I'm, I was starting to undo like, I'll use my shoelace to tie and I'll get a steak knife and pour alcohol on it.

Yeah.

No way.

And, but then the, the paramedics showed up right at that moment when I was about to do that, and they gave me the stuff to, to cut the cord.

Wow.

Um, you know what's really funny about that?

What?

About our American healthcare system.

Then we got in the ambulance, uh, and they j- it w- so it was a very expensive ambulance ride to the hospital.

Yeah.

And then they charged us for labor and delivery of the baby.

No way.

And we called the hospital and I said, "Why are you charging us for labor and delivery?

We delivered the baby at home." And they said, "Oh, let- we'll rerun that." They reran it, they gave us the same bill, but they charged us for labor and delivery of the placenta in the ambulance.

Wow.

Yeah.

That's amazing.

They always find a way to get you.

But what, I was prepared.

If he was in danger, if it looked like he was blue or something was in danger, I was gonna baptize him right then and there.

Wow.

Right then and there as an emergency baptism.

In fact, the church teaches because God wants everyone to be baptized, normally it should be a priest or a deacon.

Mm-hmm.

But it says anybody can do it.

Even an, even an atheist.

Yeah.

So you have two atheists-

Yeah.

...

and one's like, "I want to be Christian," and he has a heart attack, like, "I always wanted to be baptized," his atheist friend can say, "Okay, I'm, I'm gonna baptize you.

I'm gonna do what Christians try to do with this." And he knows it's in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and he does the right words, and he just says, "I want to do what Christians, the church does with this."

Mm-hmm.

We treat that, that would be valid.

Okay.

Because God wants e- everybody.

So I think that's where I would look at it when it comes to infants that, yes, they're not morally accountable because they don't commit original sin, because they don't commit actual sin, but God doesn't owe hea- The, God only owes heaven to those he has promised heaven to.

Mm-hmm.

He only owes heaven, not by any law above him, but by the promises he makes that he, he can't, he binds himself by.

He only owes heaven to the people he's promised heaven to.

And he's promised heaven to those who receive his sanctifying grace, receive his life, and don't forsake him.

And so he, and he's told us that comes, that life he gives us, it comes to us through baptism.

Mm-hmm.

So it's interesting.

So we do agree on that we, we, it saves us, we receive God's life through baptism.

But I would say that the promise of heaven is only for those who have received that life from him.

While God can extraordinarily save people who didn't receive his grace in that way, we must not presume upon that.

Okay.

Yeah, 'cause basically my idea is if God's wrath is this train that is on its way, and when God has decided for Jesus to come again and wrath comes to those who did not know God, did not obey the gospel-

Yeah.

...

uh, like Second Thessalonians says, uh, that's when it, that's when it runs everybody over basically.

Uh, it's a kind of a silly sounding illustration, but-

Right.

...

the way I see like myself, I used to be on the tracks, that's where I wanted to live life, and then I received God's grace and I was no longer there.

Um, but I just see babies as, or infants as-

Right.

...

like they were never on the tracks, because getting on the tracks-

Yeah.

...

you place yourself there.

Mm-hmm.

And so, but, I, I see how we could have maybe say that like God could extraordinarily save them or, you know, maybe they're not on the tracks, but they're also not gonna be in heaven.

They won't receive wrath-

Once the train is gone.

Yeah.

...

but they won't receive beatification, perfect supernatural happiness.

The argument doesn't lead that they will assuredly receive that.

Only the promises associated to baptism would, would be, um, would be connected to that.

Mm-hmm.

I think also theologians, at least classical theologians, would say, uh, I know Pope Benedict XVI discusses this, that phrases like God's wrath, we have to be careful not to anthropomorphize God.

Mm-hmm.

So we would say, for example, the classical tradition is that God is just perfect being itself, so God doesn't react to us.

Mm-hmm.

God is all knowing, all powerful, all present.

All of his life is in one perfect timeless moment.

That's the classical view of God's temporality.

And so God doesn't react to us because, you know, he's not-

Yeah.

...

you know, he's, he's omniscient and perfect.

And Benedict talked about how descriptions of God's wrath are a way not of describing what God does to us, but what we do, but what we do to our relationship with God.

That when we move away from God, that is essentially, that's his wrath.

So when we see a lot of descriptions of God in the Bible, we have to be careful.

It's very easy to anthropomorphize them.

That to say, you know, oh, well does God have a actual...

Does the Father have a literal right hand and a backside?

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, you know, did he actually repent of doing these things?

Like was he sorry he made human beings?

Mm-hmm.

Like that doesn't sound very omniscient.

Yeah.

So we would say that other expressions like the wrath of God refer more to what happens to people who forsake God.

In fact, an Eastern view of, of theology that I really like is the idea that in the afterlife, um...

And this is more amongst like Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholics than in the West, but it's the idea that in the afterlife, we all experience God, but those who are in God's friendship, this is a very...

It's the best feeling possible.

Mm-hmm.

It's pure bliss.

But for those who die apart from God, who are not in friendship with God, who do not have God's sanctifying grace, it is misery to be around.

Mm-hmm.

So it's like, for example, if, um, your hand, if my hands are hot and your hands are lukewarm and I hold them, your hands feel good in my hands.

But if your hands are ice cold and my hands are hot and I hold them, it feels miserable.

Mm-hmm.

Even though I'm the same.

Mm-hmm.

You are not disposed to receive it in that way.

So I find that an interesting way to look at the afterlife and what happens to believers.

It's almost...

Well it's interesting, it helps really solve a lot of like the idea of hell is unjust.

Yeah.

'Cause I would just say no, everybody after death receives God.

It's not unjust at all.

But those who have trusted in God, they enjoy that reception 'cause they're friends with God.

But then for other people, like God doesn't have to do anything extrinsic to be wrathful.

Mm-hmm.

If you are just not God's friend, God's mere presence is-

Yeah.

...

is an agonizing, is an agonizing thing.

It's kind of like, um......

what was it?

I think it was Brian Regan.

He does a bit about people who one-up at parties.

It's like, you know, like, "I had a wisdom tooth removed.

I had to have four wisdom teeth removed-" "...

without surgery."

Yeah.

You know.

Or, um, uh, someone, he's like, "I wish I could just be an astronaut." They say, "Oh, you guys, you know, you did that?" "I walked on the moon." "Try to one-up that." Like, there are some people, like if you ever go to a party and there is a really awesome person there, there's two types of people.

There's people who love being with the awesome person and they feel grateful, like, "This is so cool-"

Mm-hmm.

"...

with this guy." And then there's another type of person who can't stand-

Yeah.

...

that they're getting all that attention and they aren't.

And it just drives them crazy.

Mm-hmm.

So, uh, I think there's, uh, that's a good analogy that for people who die apart from God's friendship, uh, even, even if they are before they reach the age of accountability, they still have just these natural human temperaments that they're not able to really receive God in that supernatural blissful way.

It's always like, "Well, what about me?"

Mm-hmm.

If, I mean, if anybody is, "What about me?" it's an infant.

Yeah.

Right?

But I do believe that from a theological perspective, we can have a hopeful confidence.

But just because we have hopeful confidence about things, we, we ought not be presumptive.

Okay.

So yeah.

I was gonna ask you then, so you're into, in summary, your criticism of like my point about God, I see patterns of him wanting to pass over them in judgment, and the things that I see described as deserving of wrath in the New Testament, it see- seems to exclusively refer to people who make choices instead of infants.

Is your critique basically that like, okay, I, I, I see a pattern, sure, but it's not solid enough, it's not sure enough?

All, all we could get from that is that there is a precedent of God withholding punishment-

Mm-hmm.

...

from certain people based on ignorance.

But it doesn't get you the rest of the way.

Not God rewarding salvation-

Interesting.

...

because of ignorance.

Yeah.

That's where I would see some of the problem there 'cause some of the things you give me an example of in the, in the Old Testament would just be, "Well, these people committed wrongdoing so I will give them a temporal punishment."

Yeah.

Or, "I will g- punish them in this life.

They will suffer death.

But these people did not do wrongdoing and so I will not punish them." That's fair enough.

But looking then at, at hell, I think sometimes it can be helpful to view it not necessarily as punishment per se, though it is, but to see it as consequence.

It's a consequence of being apart from God.

Mm-hmm.

And so, there is a possibility for that for, for different people and that's why people struggled with that.

That, uh, one, if you die apart from God, you cannot inherit eternal life.

Now, we all have eternal life, right?

Like people in hell have eternal life.

Mm-hmm.

But it's not blissful.

So you can't inherit eternal life with God but maybe there, maybe there's something else.

That's where limbo w- would come in.

So I think the argument you're making, I think it, it is a good argument for incl- like the inclusiveness view.

The idea that God is not going to damn people who, through no fault of their own.

Mm-hmm.

However, when we apply...

So like if we apply that, for example, to let's say we had a group of islanders, right?

Who, um, you know, like the North Sentinel, North Sentinelese.

Of course.

Yeah.

So the guys, it's like, "You wanna go there, they're gonna get arrows in your back."

Yeah.

And this is like one of the few lost tribes-

Yeah.

...

off the coast of India.

Uh, you might say, "Well, they've never known Christ or the Bible.

Uh, God's not going to pour his wrath out on them because they, they've never known Christ." So one could make the argument, "Well, if that's the argument, maybe we shouldn't witness to them at all."

Yeah.

Why, why would we give them a chance?

You're making it worse for everyone.

We're making it worse for them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So you might say, "Oh, well then, then by that logic, uh, yeah, we're, we're making it worse for them." We would say, "Well, no, that's only if it's a guarantee." So we'd say, "Well, it's not a guarantee they'll be saved.

We're just saying that God will have mercy on them and he'll judge them accordingly.

But it would sure be great for them to raise their possibility of salvation to a probability or, or a certainty."

Yeah.

And so I would say then if your argument would, would, allows for inclusivism, for example, for these natives and also for infants.

God's not going to be cruel to infants who never had a chance to receive the gospel.

But in both cases, it only allows for possibility.

And I would say that God has given us the means to raise that to probability and certainty.

So that's where I would see a difference.

So I'd have to, I'd have to go to the next step and try to prove heaven for them.

That's interesting.

For the Sentinelese?

No, no.

For, for infants.

Yeah.

Oh, for...

Yeah.

And, and that's where I would say, but even there about not being in sin, I mean, you have David in the Psalms saying, you know, "I was, I was conceived in iniquity," for example.

Ah.

I struggle with that one.

It seems like that one's not very literal.

I don't know.

Like the verses around it, like he says-

They're, they're never literal when they're a problem for us.

Well, the, the other ones where he says, like, "Wash me." And stuff like that.

Yeah.

Right.

He's not asking God to literally wash him.

You know?

Uh, it seems like in a, in a height- heightened emotional state he's-

Mm-hmm.

It's kind of like people say like, "I've always been a, like a mess up." Or something like that.

Like, not necessarily.

You know, not in this sense.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Uh...

I think he would deny though that he was conceived in holiness.

Yeah.

That's for sure.

And I think the problem is that if infants were conceived in holiness, and we, and the Bible described them as uniquely holy until they reach the age of accountability-

Mm-hmm.

...

you could maybe get an argument for your position.

But in scripture, I think you ought to conceive this, there isn't mention of the age of accountability at all.

No.

And I think the, the argument from Deuteronomy-

I think that makes it different.

...

is weak.

Like the 20-year-old thing that they did back then is kind of weak.

The idea, oh...

That would be hilarious 'cause most of us think of it around the age of seven.

Yeah.

So that'd be funny if you said, "Well, I believe in the age of accountability just once you're 20."

Yeah.

Because before that-

Yeah.

...

you're, you're basically an infant.

Yeah.

No.

I, I do struggle with the s- the Psalm 51 idea.

Yeah, yeah.

It just seems like it goes like from like non-literal, non-literal, and then people say verse five is literal, then they go back to non-literal, non-literal again.

Well, I would say it's not even necessarily literal that he's conceived like in literal filth-

Yeah.

...

or something like that in the womb, but rather in some kind of a moral inequity.

Can we both agree that, that it's very emotional, all of it?

Like the Psalms are.

Oh, all the Psalms are.

Yeah.

And-

And that's why I don't rely on the Psalms as much as proof texts.

Yeah.

But I would say, and th- and that's why for me, I, I'm not big on proof text theology-

Mm-hmm.

...

in general.

I, I believe the church has a teaching office that allows us to assemble all the data of divine revelations into a coherent whole and provide means for, for development.

Like these questions about unbaptized infants, I think most people would say, uh, that it is certainly not clear from scripture that infants who, who die before belief automatically go to heaven.

Yeah.

Most people would never say, "Oh, I have a biblical proof they go to heaven." Most of them make a, a logical argument.

I guess for me, yeah, it's just, uh, that logically I haven't come up with-

Mm-hmm.

...

limbo and I've assumed heaven...

I wanna think about that idea of limbo a little bit more.

That's interesting.

And it's, it is still, it's not one that the church...

It's not as f- the favored position as it was saying like the Middle Ages.

Yeah.

But that's why, so Catholic theology understands that there's dogmas.

Things that God ha- the church infallibly teaches God divinely revealed this.

Yeah.

Like that Christ is God, for example.

Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.

But there are other things where maybe it's an unanswered question.

Like how exactly does predestination work?

That's one where the church leaves as an open question.

Yeah.

It just says it doesn't work the way open theists say, where God is ignorant to the future.

And it doesn't work the way some Calvinists would say, with a very strict view of double predestination or that God directly wills for certain people to go to hell, things like that.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, but between that, the church will say, "Well, theologians kind of disagree about how to articulate..." And allows an open question.

Similar that with salvation of unbaptized infants.

The church doesn't have a definitive answer, so it allows theologians to develop.

So that's why I find as a Catholic so helpful that a lot of times the Magisterium, the teaching office of the church, somebody will say, "Oh, well it stifles you.

You can't read the Bible.

You can't interpret." Not at all.

Biblical theologians, systematic Catholic theologians are always exploring theology.

But the church gives us helpful guardrails.

Say, "Yeah, explore this.

Nope, don't go over here.

That's heresy." "Nope.

Don't go over here.

That's heresy." But in this, but, but within these guardrails, let's explore what God has revealed more.

That's interesting.

So...

Okay.

To wrap up, I got some quick rapid fire questions-

Yes, let's do it.

...

from some of the supporters on Patreon-

Yeah, yeah.

...

and stuff like that.

Um, uh, again, your answers don't have...

Uh, make them as long as you want to, but-...

just think about it in rapid fire terms.

Yeah, yeah.

Number one, uh, uh, Ezekiel 18:20, "The son will not bear the guilt of the father." How does...

Uh, is that a verse that you hear brought up, and what would be the typical answer?

Uh, is that, like out of context?

Uh-

Oh, well, what I would say there is that that is, that is correct.

Uh, and actually, oh, there is, there's a, there's a parallel verse in, in Jeremiah that talks about people who, you know, try to blame, uh, try to punish children instead of, you know, for what their fathers have done.

And, and they ought not do this, as each, each one should be punished for his own sin.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, it deals with the proverb about the, about the sou- something about the grapes and about...

I'll have to look that up later.

But it's in my book, Hard Sayings.

Okay.

What I would say is that i- it's very clear that, uh, God does not...

God will not punish me for the sins my grandfather has committed.

Yeah.

You know, it's not...

I'm not morally at fault for what he, he may have done.

However, in relation to original sin, so we're not punished for the sins of our ancestors, but we may suffer the consequences of the sins of our ancestors.

Yeah, for sure.

And that...

I think that's very clear-

Okay.

...

in Scripture.

Uh, this is from Brayden.

"What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding Protestants have about Catholics?"

The ma- biggest misunderstanding Protestants have about Catholics?

Yeah.

I would say it's the idea...

Two things.

One would be that we worship Mary.

Uh, we do not worship Mary as a goddess.

Uh, depends how you define worship.

We would say that worship means to offer sacrifice-

Mm-hmm.

...

to someone.

Uh, and the only sacrifice we offer is at mass.

We offer the Son under the form of bread and wine to the Father.

The only thing we can give to God is God.

We offer the bread and wine as a sacrifice.

We offer Christ, the only sacrifice that takes away sins.

Okay.

Uh, so w- we do not offer sacrifices to Mary.

There were heretics in the early church that did do that, that were condemned for that.

Uh, so we, we honor and venerate, uh, God's creatures who are examples of holiness to us, saints in heaven who pray for us.

Uh, so we honor Mary because Mary herself says in the Gospel of Luke, she says, "All generations will call me blessed for the Mighty One has done great things for me." We do not worship Mary as a goddess.

I think that's one.

The other one might be Catholics believe we're saved by faith and works, and Protestants only by faith.

No.

Paragraph 2010 of the Catechism, "The initial moment of salvation, nothing can merit it, neither faith nor works." When I was baptized, I didn't merit that salvation.

It was all a gift.

The faith I had was a gift from God.

The baptism was a gift.

My desire to be baptized was a gift that I merely did not say no to.

Yeah.

And I accepted it.

So I would say that we, we do not believe you are saved by faith and works in the sense that you have to do an arbitrary number of good deeds to go to heaven.

You just have to receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, be united to Christ in baptism, and then remain obedient to Christ in his church and not die in mortal sin.

Okay, next one.

Uh, this one sounds a little inflammatory, but I know this guy Brayden-

Or it's orflamatory .

Yeah.

I know.

Oh, that's right.

Uh, I know this guy, and he doesn't mean it this way, but this is how it sounds.

Um, "What is the incentive to live without sin if a priest can redeem me each week by prescribing a penance?"

Well, what I would say is the penance is not what redeems you or forgives you of sins.

I would say the same objection applies to every single Christian theological system.

Uh, where is the incentive for me to live without sin where as a Protestant I could just go ask God for forgiveness?

Like if I can always go when I commit a grave sin...

S- if, if someone says to you, you know, "What do I do?

I did this horrible thing." You say, "Well, ask God to forgive you of, of your sin." Someone could say, "Okay, why not just sin all the time and do that?" So whether you approach a minister of the church to seek reconciliation with God or you approach God directly, uh, and Catholics are free to, free to do that as well.

Mm-hmm.

They can approach a priest, for example.

But just as God gave us a minister to bring us into the faith, like you can't baptize yourself.

Mm-hmm.

It's interesting.

You can't baptize yourself.

You have to go to a minister of the church.

It's fitting we approach a minister of the church to be reinstated into friendship with God.

Uh, so it doesn't, it doesn't create any sort of...

If anything, the fact that you have to go to somebody creates an incentive not to commit sins.

I love seeing a priest in confession saying, "The person of Christ." I mean, it's so funny, right?

Like, be like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed, like, to tell this sin to a priest." And you can go to priests anonymously, of course.

But it's like, "I'm embarrassed to tell a priest that." But then people aren't embarrassed to tell God the sins they've committed.

Mm-hmm.

Like, shouldn't we...

Shouldn't that be what we're really embarrassed about?

Yeah.

But I think that it's very telling there, and I think in God's wisdom, giving us this sacrament to show how serious sin, that how serious sin is, that the church wants to be there as a loving pastoral guide to bring us into community with Him.

So I would say that this particular objection, any system, any way that God forgives sins can be abused.

You know, "Well, why not just be a cr- why not be a horrible person, then accept Jesus at the end of my life?"

Yeah.

Any system can be abused.

We have to look at what is the proper use of the gift of grace and salvation God has given us.

Okay.

Uh, next one.

Uh, and this is, uh, i- if, if, uh, you need to, want to go back and look at the context of it, i- it's fine.

You're gonna have to answer it.

But, um, in Romans 7:9, uh, when Paul said, "I was once alive without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." Uh, there was a question that was, um, about Romans 7:9, where Paul basically says he was alive before the commandment came, which brought death to him.

And so, um, the argument would be like, that was before he ever learned about it when he was an infant young child, and then when he was preached to, when the commandment of the Lord came, then he died because it exposed his sin.

Yeah.

Uh, I would s- I couldn't see that really applying just to his, his...

about childhood-

Mm-hmm.

...

and about like an age of accountability or of childly innocence.

The context running all throughout Romans, what Paul is saying is basically this: you don't have to be a good Jew to be a good Christian.

That is the number one theme that he is talking about.

So when talking about faith and works and we're justified by faith apart from works of the law-

Mm-hmm.

...

many people mistakenly believe that what Paul is talking about here is we're justified by faith apart from good deeds.

But that's not what Paul is really talking about.

Now, he doesn't believe you do good deeds to be saved, to enter into salvation.

But what he's talking about here is that...

He's talking specifically about doing works of...

Like you can translate works of law, you can trans...

Nomos, law, it can say we are justified by faith and not works of Torah.

So that would be a better way to understand what Paul is saying.

We're justified by faith and not by works of Torah.

We're not justified by following the Ten Commandments because they're the Torah.

Hm.

We still have to follow them.

You can't just stop following them as a Christian.

But w- we don't have...

You don't have to become a good Jew to become a good Christian.

You don't have to be circumcised.

You don't have to follow the Torah and then believe in Jesus.

You can just be saved by believing in Jesus and receiving Him through baptism.

And Paul makes that clear in Romans chapter 6, when he talks about how in baptism, he compares that to dying and rising again in Christ.

Mm-hmm.

So I would say that what is being discussed there is not about childly innocence.

It's that the Torah is not what gives us salvation.

It was the helpful guide.

In Galatians, he calls it the paidagōgós.

He calls it the babysitter that led us to God.

Mm-hmm.

But now that Christ is here, the Torah is not what gives us salvation.

There are good things in the Torah.

There are things we should still follow, like the Ten Commandments, but you don't follow them because they are Torah-

Yeah.

...

because they are the Old Testament law.

Uh, that is not what saves us.

In fact, to follow it as if it is what saves us, that is what brings death.

Where Paul is saying, "No, what brings life is Jesus Christ."

Okay.

Uh, this one, I'm gonna summarize it as well.

Um-

All right.

This is something that you talked about with Gavin Ortlund about Cornelius, uh, being regenerated in that...

in Acts 10 prior to baptism.

Yeah.

Um, uh, Mitchell here points out that in Acts 8, you see that the Samaritans were baptized, then they received the Holy Spirit afterward, uh, after they imparted the gift of the Holy Spirit to them, the apostles did.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, so the question is-...

uh, how do you justify that Cornelius' baptism was non- oh wait, how do you justify that Cornelius' baptism was non-regenerative?

Uh, how would you, how would interpret- interpreting Cornelius' baptism as an exception not make it another baptism entirely?

Right.

So what- what I would say here is that we have to look at the larger scheme in Acts Chapter 10 going to Acts 15, that in all of this and then going into Peter's vision, that all of this is leading up to a very important moment where God is making an exception specifically to resolve a crucial problem in the early church, which is what Paul's talking about with faith and works.

Yeah.

And that would be the salvation of the Gentiles.

That originally the idea is, well, you know, this is something, this is for the Jewish people, for the chosen people, to say, "No, this- the time has come now to break out into the Gentile world." And apparently that hasn't been clear to everybody, so I'm gonna have to make a special intervention here to intervene to make that abundantly clear so that it can be made clear in the revel- you know, in that incident, ultimately culminating in the Council of Jerusalem infallibly teaching this revelation that Peter has received and making it binding upon the- upon the whole church.

So I think a lot of that when you're looking in Acts of the Apostles, it's- it's very interesting when people talk about baptism and they, like, want to stay in Acts, because a lot of people who do that also believe in Jesus only baptism.

Mm-hmm.

That when they just want to stay there and they get so myopically focused on the Book of Acts...

I remember once I was having a dialogue with a Protestant, actually, and he said to me, "If we only had, you know...

Could we save people if we only had Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letters?

Like would that be enough that we have enough to save people?" And I would...

and I said, "Well, no, because we wouldn't have the baptismal formula." That's only in Matthew Chapter 28.

You know?

So the idea of trying to, like, re- you know, reducing...

Because they were talking to me about, "Well, could you have this or not have that?" I- I- So I think it's important there to look at, you know, the entire context.

And also looking at, like, the Sacrament of Confirmation, of receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, for example, by anointing, seeing that in the early church as fulfilling one's initiation into the faith also comes into play.

So I- I would say that understanding the exception for Cornelius, it doesn't create another kind of baptism, it just creates a unique moment that reaches its fulfillment in the declaration in Acts 15.

Awesome.

Uh, last one, from Eric, who you actually met on the way in here.

Ah.

Um, three book recommendations for people starting out in Christian apologetics.

Ooh.

So just in defending the- the basics of the Christian faith?

Yeah.

Existence of God, things like that.

Oh, so, so many, so many things.

Uh, well, one that I like-

This might be the hardest one.

No, no, no, no.

This might be the hardest question.

Well, one that...

Here- here's a few I can- I can throw in there.

So three just to start off with.

Uh, one that I like that they might enjoy just for apologetics, it covers Christian apologetics, it also covers some Catholic apologetics, but it covers a wide variety of issues.

Uh, my friend Jimmy Akin's book, A Daily Defense.

Mm-hmm.

And it's like a, like, you know those cal- like a flip calendar?

Yeah.

It has one apologetic argument every day.

That is cool.

So it's 366, I think.

Cool program.

One for leap years also.

And you just go through, it covers God, Jesus, the Bible, and also Catholicism.

I think it's a nice start.

Yeah.

It's just a nice start of just starting to understand apologetics in this way.

Uh, I think then if you want to go deeper, that is a...

I'm trying to think of a really solid Christian apologetic.

I also don't want to be self-serving.

I mean, I could mention my own stuff, but I don't want to do that.

Yours won't count-

No.

...

if you mention them.

I cannot mention them.

Uh, one that's kind of advanced, but I think it's probably my favorite on atheism is Five Proofs of the Existence of God by Ed Feser.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, it has a really great critique of atheism from a classical theistic perspective.

At the very least, it's kind of a heady book, read the Argument from Motion, and then his Defense of Natural Theology is just two chapters in it.

Okay.

Well worth it to reply to atheism.

And he's got, uh, other good arguments in there, um, as well.

But when it comes to that, I used to talk about the Blackwell Companion Natural Theology, but woof, that is a brick of a book.

Oh, really?

Uh, but when it...

Oh, let's see.

Other- other apologetic books.

Oh.

Uh, well, Case for the Resurrection by Licona and Habermas.

I think it's a nice introduction.

If you want to go deeper on the resurrection, there is, uh, Mike Licona's book, The Resurrection: A New Historiographical Approach.

500 pages long.

If you want to go real in depth, Gary Habermas has a- like, a thousand pages out now on the resurrection.

But if you want to start light, if you want to start light-

Yeah.

...

Case for the Resurrection by Habermas and Licona, I think it's a nice, it's a- it's a nice start there.

Uh, but I love Five Proofs.

Uh, I think Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig is also a good book.

You've mentioned...

That was kind of a- a formative one for you in the beginning, right?

Yeah.

Yeah, that one.

Yeah.

William Lane Craig, people who helped me become Christian were really, like, Protestants, like William Lane Craig and J.P.

Moreland.

Wow.

Honestly, that's where...

And also, and some Catholics like Peter Kreeft.

But, um...

So I think that that's good.

Uh, also the Catholic Handbook of Apologetics, it's like 90% Christian.

It used to be called the Christian Handbook of Apologetics and then they added some Catholic stuff at the end in the next edition, so they called it the Catholic Handbook of Apologetics.

But I think many Protestants would still like it, it's like 90%.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Just Christian apologetics.

Awesome.

That's another good one I- I'd recommend.

Thank you so much for taking the time.

It means the world to me, seriously.

Oh, thanks for having me.

It was fun.

I- thank you so much, um, it gave me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it.

Um-

Anytime.

And, uh, well, I'll do an outro, but this is Trent Horren, Council of Trent, um, the books he's written, uh, very good.

I- I- They've really been a blessing to me, the ones that I've read.

And, uh, let's see, Catholic Answers, um, yeah, professional jujitsu killer, destroyer.

No, no.

I am...

No.

I am a, I am a four...

Like, I got my four stripes, it took, like, three years to get to.

So, like, I am now at the point where, like, I am just depressed at knowing all the things I don't know-

Yeah.

...

and I- I have enough of a squirrelly game to at least, like, survive with the blue belts for a decent while, and then purple and above it's just- ...

I'm just...

I'm out.

I'm out.

So-

Oh, man.

Well, thank you so much.

Yeah.

Thank you everyone.

Bye.

Talk to you soon.

Yeah.

Thank you guys so much for watching, and don't forget to like this episode and subscribe to our channel.

Thanks again, and I hope you have a very blessed day.