今天对话背后有一个有趣的故事。 So there's a funny story behind today's dialogue.
我的朋友斯宾塞告诉我，在他的健身房有一位新教牧师练习柔 术，他在他的YouTube频道上制作了关于我的视频。 My friend Spencer told me there was a Protestant minister who does jujitsu at his gym, and he made videos about me on his YouTube channel.
我看了一些视频，觉得很不错，所以我请斯宾塞帮我要到这位牧师的联系方式。 And I watched some of them and I thought they were pretty good, so I asked Spencer to get the minister's contact information.
我给他发了邮件说：「嘿，我何不去你的健身房？ I emailed him and I said, "Hey, why don't I come down to your gym?
我们可以一起练习几轮，然后在你的频道上进行对话。」于是我去了，我们练习了几轮 ，玩得很开心，然后我去了他的基督会教会，讨论了公教会和基督会关于救恩的观点。 We could do a few rolls together and then we could do a dialogue on your channel." So I went down, we got a few rolls in, uh, had a good time, and then I went to his church, which is the Church of Christ, to have a dialogue about the Catholic view of salvation and the Church of Christ view of salvation.
最后特别着重讨论了洗礼的问题，在这方面我们有很多共识，但仍有重要的分歧。 And it ended up having a particular emphasis on the issue of baptism, where we have actually a lot of agreement, but still important disagreements.
我希望你们会觉得今天的节目很有启发性。 So I hope you find today's episode really edifying.
我还要特别感谢所有的赞助人和支持者，帮助我们 达到了重新设计工作室来进行这类访谈的目标。 I also want to say I'm really grateful to everyone, our patrons and our supporters who helped us reach our goal of redesigning the studio to do these kinds of interviews here.
我们很快就要开始重新设计我们的工作室了。 We're gonna start work on that very soon to redesign our studio.
但如果你想帮助资助我们的移动工作室，因为还有一些我很想邀 请的嘉宾无法来这里，但我希望能去找他们进行专业的访谈。 But if you wanna help fund our mobile studio, because there's still some guests I would love to have who can't come here, but I would like to be able to go to them and have professional interviews.
而且有些嘉宾，在某些州或城市，甚至是国家，如果他们都住在同 一个地方，我去采访三四个人会比让三四个人飞来这里更容易。 And there's some guests where there are certain states or cities or even countries where it would be easier for me to go interview three or four people than try to fly three or four people to come out here if they all live in the same place.
所以我希望你们能支持我们的移动工作室来进行这类访谈。 So I'd love for you to support our mobile studio to do these kinds of interviews.
点击下方描述中的链接。 Click the link in the description below.
非常感谢你们所有的支持。 But thank you guys so much for all your support.
我们很快就要重新设计工作室来进行面对面的对话了。 We're gonna be redesigning the studio soon to have in-person dialogues.
说完这些，这是我与基督会牧师马可·阿罗约关于救恩的讨论，特别强调了洗礼的问题。 And with that said, here is my discussion with Church of Christ minister Marco Arroyo on the issue of salvation, with a particular emphasis on baptism.
当我听你谈论公教会和唯一真实的教会时，很多这些东西—— A lot of this stuff, when I hear you talk about Catholicism and like the one true church-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
耶稣建立的教会，我们有时会用类似的方式谈论耶稣的教会的 原则，以及它不应该分裂成这么多不同的神学观点，但是—— that Jesus established, we kind of, like, speak the same way sometimes about, like, the principle behind the idea of Jesus's church and how it wasn't meant to be branched off into all these different theological viewpoints, but-
对。 Right.
…… ...
在基督里应该有神学和教义的合一。 unity in theology and in doctrine is supposed to be in Christ.
所以，呃，也许我们也可以谈谈这个。 And so, uh, maybe we can talk about that too.
好的。 Sure.
总之，长话短说，我和这个女孩还有一些基督会的成 员进行了一年的圣经学习，然后我最终接受了洗礼。 But anyway, so long story short, I had, like, a year's worth of Bible studies with this, uh, girl and some members of Churches of Christ, and then I was eventually baptized.
但我这一生已经受过三次洗礼了。 But I've been baptized three times in my life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我小时候在公教会受洗。 I was baptized in the Catholic Church as a baby.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我父亲那边的家人都是虔诚的公教徒。 My dad's side of the family, very Catholic.
然后我在五旬节教会受洗，当时只是认为我已经是基督徒了，这只是基督徒应该做的好事。 And then I was baptized in the Pentecostal Church, just believing it was like I was already a Christian, just a good thing that Christians should do.
后来当我和基督会的一位成员学习时，我真的相信我需要受洗。 And then I really believed that I needed to be baptized when I was studying with a member of the Church of Christ.
我真的相信那时我正在成为一个基督徒。 I really believed that at that time, um, I was becoming a Christian.
呃，在那之前我对洗礼的理解，特别是在我第二次受洗时，跟圣经所教导的洗礼不一样。 Uh, that before then with my ideas about baptism, um, e- especially in my second baptism, um, that it just wasn't what the Bible teaches about baptism.
所以我觉得需要再受一次洗。 And so I felt the need to be baptized one more time.
所以我—— So I'm-
这就是基督会的有趣之处，因为当我们思考洗礼 时，实际上有四种可能的观点，分为两个问题。 And that's what's interesting a little bit about Church of Christ 'cause when we think about baptism, there's really four possible views divided on two questions.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
洗礼能拯救人吗？ Does baptism save?
它能使我们灵性重生吗？ Does it spiritually regenerate us?
我们应该给婴儿施洗吗？ And should we baptize infants?
比如说，你可以说，是的，洗礼确实…… So for example, you could say, yeah, baptism, uh, does...
你说洗礼不能拯救。 You say baptism doesn't save.
是的。 Yeah.
假设你不相信洗礼重生。 Let's say you don't believe in baptism regeneration.
那么很多人称之为信徒洗礼。 Then many, like, call it credobaptist.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，这些信徒洗礼者。 Uh, the, the credobaptists.
他们说，好的，我们…… These say, okay, we...
洗礼不能拯救，我们也不给婴儿施洗。 Baptism doesn't save and we don't baptize infants.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
然后你会看到其他新教徒说：「是的，洗礼不能拯救，但这是一个盟约的记号 ，所以我们要给婴儿施洗。」所以一些新教徒会把它作为进入盟约的记号—— Then you'll have other Protestants who will say, "Yeah, baptism doesn't save, but it's a covenant sign, so we're gonna baptize infants." So some Protestants will do that as a, as a sign of entering the covenant-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
即使洗礼不能拯救。 even though baptism doesn't save.
这是一种观点。 Then so that's one side of it.
另一种观点是洗礼能拯救所以我们给婴儿施洗—— Then the other side would be baptism does save and so we baptize infants-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
这包括公教会、路德会、圣公会。 which would be Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans.
最后一种是洗礼能拯救，但我们不给婴儿施洗，这就是基督会。 And then the last quadrant would be baptism does save, but we don't baptize infants, which is Church of Christ.
嘿，各位。 Hey, guys.
就是这样。 There you go.
很有趣。 It's funny.
我在看你和加文·奥特伦德的对话。 I was watching your conversation with, uh, uh, Gavin Ortlund.
当时你说：「我不知道。」然后他说：「基督会。」然后你说：「哦，对，没错。」 At the time you were like, "I don't know." And he was like, "Churches of Christ." And then you were like, "Oh yeah, that's true."
是的。 Yeah.
这总是那四个…… That's always the four...
在说到最后一个象限时，我就像：「那就是…… At the end of the quadrants, I'm like, "That would be...
哦，对。」 Oh yeah."
是的。 Yeah.
那就是最后一部分。 That would be the last part.
当我看到那个视频时，我想做一个搞笑的编辑，就像把那段剪 出来，然后我说：「是的，基督会也是。」然后就是我…… I thought about when I saw that video making a silly little edit, like taking that and then me like, "Yeah, Churches of Christ too." And then just me being like...
完全是。 Totally.
为我们的对话做准备。 Preparation for our conversation.
是的。 Yes.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
觉得那会是有趣的宣传材料。 Thought that'd be funny promo material.
但我想说，你有没有和某个相信洗礼是必要的、能拯 救人的，但不给婴儿施洗的人进行过这样的对话？ But I was gonna say, have you ever spoken to someone, had a dialogue like this with someone who believes that baptism is necessary, that it saves, but they don't baptize infants?
我没有。 I have not.
这将是第一次和人讨论这个观点，因为通常要么是—— This will be a f- this will be a first dialogue with someone on, on that point 'cause usually it's either-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
它能拯救，所以我们相信婴儿洗礼，要么是其他的…… it saves, so we believe in infant baptism, or it's one of the other...
你知道，是其他的观点之一。 You know, it's one of the other ones.
哇。 Wow.
很好。 Cool.
而且大多数时候是那些不相信它能拯救的人。 And most of the time it's for those who don't believe it doesn't save.
十次中有九次是和不给婴儿施洗的人对话。 Nine times out of 10 it's with somebody who doesn't baptize infants.
哇。 Wow.
太好了。 That's so cool.
十次中有九次。 Nine times out of 10.
是的。 Yeah.
作为最后一个象限的代表真是太好了。 That's cool to be the, again, the guy in that final quadrant.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
对。 Right.
好的。 Okay.
那么，呃，我让你说说，嗯，公教会的救恩计划是什么？ So, uh, I'll, I'll let you say, um, what is the Catholic plan of salvation?
假设你有—— You have, let's say-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
这是这种情况。 this is the scenario.
有时会用「外邦罪人」这个词，就是不认识耶稣或其他任何事的人。 Alien sinner is the term that gets used sometimes, doesn't know Jesus or anything like that.
是的。 Yeah.
他说：「特伦特，我想认识耶稣。」你会告诉他什么？ And he goes, "I want to know Jesus, Trent." What do you tell him?
「我想成为基督徒。」 "I want to become a Christian."
我会与他分享福音，福音就是通过耶稣基督的生、死和复活而得救的好消息。 Well, I would share the gospel with him and the gospel is the good news of salvation through the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
要得救，你只需要做三件事。 And so to be saved, you just have to do three things.
你必须悔改，必须接受基督，并保持与基督的联合。 You have to repent, you have to receive Christ, and remain united to Christ.
所以是悔改、接受、保持。 So repent, receive, remain.
不是—— Not-
你的总结很好。 Your liberation is good.
是的。 Yeah.
悔改、接受、保持。 Repent, receive, remain.
这基本上就是这三个步骤。 That's basically the three steps.
不一定按这个顺序，但就是悔改、接受、保持。 Not necessarily in that order, but repent, receive, remain.
比如说，如果是成年人，就像我17岁时受洗。 So if it's an adult, like for example, I was baptized when I was 17 years old.
我在一个相当不信教的家庭长大。 I was raised in a fairly non-religious household.
父亲是犹太人，母亲以前是公教徒，后来成为了基督徒。 Dad's Jewish, mom used to be Catholic, then became Christian.
我父亲也不去犹太教堂。 My dad didn't go to temple or anything like that either.
他就是典型的犹太人，不去教堂或其他任何地方。 He was just your typical Jew, doesn't, doesn't go to temple or anything like that.
所以我在一个非常不信教的家庭长大。 So I was raised in a very non-religious household.
然后我在高中时遇到了一些公教会的青少年。 Then I met Catholic teens when I was in high school.
这让我确信了基督教，然后我做了更多研究来看看我应该加入哪个教派。 It convicted me of Christianity and then I did more research to look at which different denominations should I join.
在这个过程中，我看到，哦，我…… So in doing that, I came to see, oh, I...
公教会是耶稣基督建立的教会。 The, the Catholic Church is the church that Jesus Christ established.
我要成为其中的一部分。 I'm gonna be part of this.
公教这个词只是意味着普世的。 The word Catholic just means universal.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
Kata holos，意思是按照整体。 Kata holos, according to the whole.
要成为其中的一部分。 To be a part of that.
所以如果我对一个刚从街上来的人说：「你想得救吗？」悔改…… So if I said to just someone right off the street, "You want to be saved?" Repent of...
如果你是成年人，像我当时一样，悔改你的罪，接受基督，我们在洗礼中接受圣灵。 If you're an adult, like I was, repent of your sins, receive Christ, and we receive the Holy Spirit, receive that in baptism.
所以你要悔改，凭信心接受基督。 So you would repent, receive Christ in faith.
你知道，我相信耶稣。 You know, I believe in Jesus.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我相信他建立的教会，我会在洗礼中接受圣灵。 I believe in the church that he's established and I would receive the Holy Spirit in baptism.
在受洗的那一刻，你所有的罪都被洗去。 And at the moment of being baptized, all of your sins are washed away.
原罪被…… Original sin, the...
被除去。 is removed.
你成为…… You become...
你从亚当的子女变成神的养子。 You go from being a child of Adam to being an adopted child of God.
在你受洗的那一刻，绝对没有任何东西能阻碍你进入天堂。 And at that very moment you are baptized, uh, there is absolutely nothing to hinder you entering into heaven.
然而，从那时起，会有属灵的争战。 Then from that time on, however, there is a spiritual battle.
有权势和掌权的。 There are powers and principalities.
有诱惑，有魔鬼。 There's temptations, there's the devil.
总有一些事物试图把我们从基督那里拉走，我们是有可能放弃我们的救恩的。 There are things always trying to pull us away from Christ, and it is possible for us to forsake our salvation.
但我不喜欢用「失去救恩」这个词，因为这不像你丢失车钥匙那样。 But I don't like using the word lose salvation 'cause it's like, you don't lose your salvation like you lose your car keys.
不会那样发生。 Just doesn't happen like that.
但你可以做出有意识的行动，你可以放弃它。 But you can make a conscious action, you can forsake it.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
最明显的例子就是背教。 The clearest example would be apostasy.
如果你完全离开信仰，说：「我不…… If you just leave the faith entirely, say, "I don't...
我就是…… I just...
我不再相信了。」 I don't believe anymore."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但即使你说你相信，如果你犯了…… But you can also forsake salvation even if you say you believe, if you engage in an...
如果你犯了重罪，那么你的行为就在表达不同的东西。 If you engage in grave sin, then that's saying with your actions something different.
就像一个男人说：「我爱我的妻子」，但如果他背 叛了他的妻子，他的行为就表明他并不真的爱她。 It's like a man who says, "I love my wife," but if he cheats on his wife, he's saying with his actions he doesn't really love her.
是的。 Yeah.
如果他这样做了，他就必须与他的妻子和好。 And so if he does that, he has to reconcile with his wife.
他必须寻求宽恕。 He has to seek forgiveness.
如果我们犯了重罪，圣经明确表示并非所有的罪都同 等严重，我想基督徒普遍都相信这一点，有一些…… If we commit a grave sin, and the Bible's clear that not all sins are of equal weight and I think Christians generally believe this, there are some...
我们每天都在犯罪。 We all sin every day.
雅各说我们都会犯小错。 James says we all make small mistakes.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们都在许多小事上跌倒，雅各书3:2。 Uh, we all stumble many small ways, James 3:2.
但确实有一些罪与基督徒的生活是不相容的。 But there are certainly some sins that are incompatible with the Christian life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，重罪比如，你知道，堕胎、色情、淫乱。 Uh, grave sins like, you know, um, abortion, uh, pornography, uh, fornication.
呃，这些是重罪，犯这些罪会使我们与神隔绝。 Uh, there, there are grave sins and that to engage in these things separates us from God.
如果我们犯了这些重罪，就拿我刚才举例的通奸来说—— And if we do these grave things, so you just take even just like adultery as-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
我之前举的例子…… an example I gave earlier....
我们会寻求与神和好。 we was- we would seek reconciliation with God.
所以作为公教徒，如果你犯了大罪，你会通过教会的圣职人员寻求与神和好。 So as a Catholic, if you commit mortal sin, you would seek reconciliation with God through a minister of the Church.
所以要在最初得救，你要去找教会的圣职人员，接受洗礼。 So to be saved in the first instant, you go to a minister of the Church, you receive baptism.
如果你堕落了，如果你通过行为拒绝神，你要去找教 会的圣职人员，一位祭司，进行告解圣事并认罪。 If you fall away, if you reject God through your actions, you approach a minister of the Church, a priest, do the sacraments of confession and confess your sins.
他代表基督，通过他，神赦免我们的罪。 And he stands on the person of Christ, and through him, God forgives our sins.
从洗礼开始，就没有什么工作要做了。 And so then moving forward, it's just from baptism, there is no work.
要得救你唯一要做的，没有什么工作，只是不要在大罪的状态下死去。 The only work you must do to be saved, there's no work, just don't die in a state of mortal sin.
不要在反抗神的状态下死去。 Don't die in a state of rebellion against God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这意味着不要做我们不该做的恶事，同时也要履行作为基督徒的义务。 So that means don't do evil we ought not do, but also fulfill the obligations you have as a Christian.
比如，神命令我们在主日敬拜他。 So for example, God commands us to worship Him on Sundays.
你不能在主日睡懒觉说：「嗯，你知道，神并不真的在意。」 You can't just sleep in on Sundays and say, "Well, you know, God doesn't- doesn't really care."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
不，这是给我们的义务。 No, that's an obligation given to us.
早期教会从使徒那里领受了这个，我们要在主日和规定的圣日敬拜神。 The early church received this from the apostles that we are to worship God on Sundays and holy days of obligation.
比如，我认识一些基督徒不庆祝圣诞节，因为他们说：「嗯，圣经里没有——」 So for example, I've known some Christians who don't celebrate Christmas because they say, "Well, it's not in the Bible-"
嗯。 Hm.
「…… "...
要庆祝圣诞节。 to celebrate Christmas.
你知道，如果圣诞节在星期二，我就不用去教会。」你知道，所以这—— You know, if Christmas happens to be on a Tuesday, I don't have to go to church." You know, so it's- ...
当它恰好落在星期天时总是很有趣。 it- it is always funny when it happens to fall on a Sunday.
是的。 Yeah.
有人会说：「嗯，为什么我要去？ Somebody will be like, "Well, why do I got to go?
我刚刚星期天才去过」，因为是圣诞节。 I just went on Sunday," because it's Christmas.
这—— It-
当它落在星期天时会怎样？ What happens when it falls on a Sunday?
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
嗯，我想—— Well, I think-
那一定很难。 That must be rough.
我——嗯，我想——嗯，如果它落在——如果它落在星期天，就是一次完成两个。 I- Well, I think- well, if it falls- if it falls on a Sunday, it's a two for one.
你庆祝—— You celebrate-
啊。 Ah.
…… ...
你的主日义务—— your- your Sunday obligation-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
和庆祝基督诞生的义务。 and the- the obligation to celebrate Christ's nativity.
如果它恰好落在…… It's more if it happens to fall...
呃，我想是一两年前，也许是去年，它在星期一。 Uh, well, I think it was a year or two ago, maybe it was last year, it was- it was on a Monday.
所以你—— So you- ...
你星期天去，然后星期一去。 you go on Sunday and then you go on Monday.
是的。 Yeah.
所以不是—— So not-
不是连续两天。 Not two days in a row.
是的。 Yeah.
不是连续两天。 Not two days in a row.
你看2000年前的基督徒—— You look at Christians 2,000 years ago-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
他们会觉得我们今天太娇气了。 they think we're such cream puff today.
主啊，那是多久以前？ How long ago, Lord?
是的，所以我要说的是悔改、接受和保持。 Yeah, so what I would say is that it's repent, receive, and remain.
是的。 Yeah.
所以你可以把它简化，或者如果你说：「好吧，我到底要做什么？」你可以列举：「这 是所有……」比如，如果我要列举，有些人会说公教会的救恩计划「哦，太复杂了。」 So you can make- make it simple or if you say, "Well, what exactly do I have to do?" You could enumerate, "Here's all..." Like, if I were to enumerate, some people will say the Catholic plan of salvation, "Oh, it's so complex."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但实际上，如果你要向某人解释，他们说：「我想得救。」你说：「好 ，相信耶稣，罗马书10:9，用嘴承认。」然后他们说：「哦，好的 。」然后他们继续，比如说做OnlyFans模特和拍色情内容。 But really, if you like ha- like if you had to explain to someone and they said, "Like I want to be saved." You say, "Well, believe in Jesus, Romans 10:9, confess with your lips." And they say, "Oh, okay." And then they continue to let's say be an OnlyFans model and do pornography.
你会说：「哇，等等，等等，你不能继续这样做。」 You'd say, "Whoa, wait, wait, wait, you can't keep doing that."
是的。 Yeah.
然后，「好吧，那么，我能，呃，你知道，我能做这个吗， 比如说，这个其他的重罪？」「嗯，好吧，那个也不行。 And, "Well, okay, well, can I, uh, you know, c- can I do this, for example, this other grave sin?" "Well, okay, not that.
这些是——这些是事情，这些行为与基督徒的生活不相容。」 These are- these are things, these are actions that are incompatible with Christian life."
是的。 Yeah.
或者如果他们说：「好的，太好了，我得救了，我再也不用去教会了。」等等。 Or if they say, you know, "Okay, great, I'm saved, I never have to go to church again." Well, hold on.
如果你真的得救了—— If you're really saved-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你会成为当地教会团契的一部分。 you would be part of a local community.
所以这就是我所说的列举问题，公教会的救恩计划可以概括为悔改、接受、保持。 So that's what I would call the enumeration problem, that the Catholic plan of salvation can be summarized, repent, receive, remain.
所以你可能会说：「好吧，你说的这些是什么意思？」好，让我来列举。 And so you may say, "Well, what do you mean by all of that?" Okay, let me enumerate it.
是的。 Yeah.
但我确实相信新教徒也必须做同样的事，他们只是会用稍微不同的方式来描述。 But I do believe Protestants have to do the same thing, they're just gonna describe it a little differently.
是的，当然。 Yeah, definitely.
所以是的，如果你问我救恩计划是什么，我刚刚和凯勒布谈 论过这个，呃，很多基督会的人会说有五件事你必须做。 So yeah, if you were to ask me what the plan of salvation is, I was just talking with Caleb about this, uh, that, um, that a lot of people in Churches of Christ will say it's like five things you gotta do.
而且，呃，这个起源很有趣，呃，凯勒布刚刚告诉我—— And, uh, the- the origin of this was very interesting, uh, that Caleb was just telling me about-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
沃尔特·斯科特会对孩子们说，他——这是给孩子 们的记忆方法，就是听、信、悔改、认信、受洗。 that Walter Scott, uh, would say to children, he- it- this was like a memory device for children, that it was hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你必须做这五件事，然后他会让孩子们告诉他们的父母。 There's five things you gotta do and then he would have children tell that to their parents.
再次感谢凯勒布，聪明的家伙。 Again, shout out to Caleb, smart guy.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
但是，嗯，这就是他会做的。 But, um, that's what he would do.
所以很多基督会的人都是这样说的，但你也可以把它简化 一点，嗯，很类似，就是你可以说，呃，某人，嗯…… And so a lot of people in Churches of Christ, that's how they put it, but you could also condense that down a little bit, um, very similarly, which is you could just say, uh, someone, um...
你知道，你真的——你可以把它归结为相信、悔改和洗礼。 You know, you really- you could boil it down to like belief, repenting, and baptism essentially.
所以当你说接受基督时，那是指相信和洗礼？ So when you said, uh, receive Christ, that was belief and baptism?
是的。 Yeah.
好的。 Okay.
对成年人来说是这样。 So, well, for an adult.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
所以我们必须对基督有信心。 So we do have to have faith in Christ.
我们必须做出信心的行动，我们被命令相信神是独一的，神是三位一体的。 We have to, uh, make an act of faith where we're commanded to believe God is one, God is a trinity.
我们必须…… We have to...
这很有趣，我想很多新教徒可能会说：「哦，你只需要相信耶稣。」但是一旦你深入探讨。 And that's interesting here, I think many Protestants might say, "Oh, you just have to believe in Jesus." But then once again, you drill down deeper.
好，你能否认三位一体吗？ Well, can you deny the Trinity?
是的。 Yeah.
哦，你必须相信圣父、圣子和圣灵是平等的，他们是不同的位格。 Oh, well, you have to believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are- are equal and that they're distinct persons.
然后你告诉我你在楼上的课程中—— And then you were telling me as- as you do it in the classes upstairs-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你在讲神性的课程，以及它如何变得复杂。 you're doing a class on the Godhead and how that can get complicated.
是的。 Yeah.
是的，确实如此。 Yeah, it did.
是的。 Yeah.
所以很有趣，人们会说：「哦，公教太复杂了。」但是再说一次，这不仅仅是相信耶稣—— So it- it- it's funny people will say, "Oh, Catholic is so complicated." But once again, it isn't just believing in Jesus- ...
因为我们会说你不能相信—— because we'd say you can't believe-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
异端。 in heresy.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你必须是真正的基督徒，你不能否认三位一体，比如说。 You have to be a true Christian, you can't reject the Trinity, for example.
所以我会说悔改、接受，对于成年人来说就是相信耶稣基督，相信他 的教会，相信圣父、圣子和圣灵，然后接受圣灵和神的成圣恩典。 So I would say repent, receive, so for an adult to believe in Jesus Christ, believe in his church, believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, but then to receive the Holy Spirit and receive God's sanctifying grace.
所以公教徒相信得救不仅仅是一个法律上的宣告。 So what Catholics believe is that being saved is not merely a legal declaration.
不仅仅是法官说：「无罪。」现在神确实做出宣告。 It's not merely a judge saying, "Not guilty." Now God does make a declaration.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这里有法律方面的因素，类似于当神创造世界时，他说：「要有光。」 There are forensic aspects to it, similar to how when God created the world, he said, "Let there be light."
嗯。 Mm.
他做出这个宣告，然后真的有了光。 He made this declaration, then there actually was light.
所以我们会说，当神——我们通过洗礼得救时，我们的灵魂真的改变了。 So we would say that when God- we- we become saved through baptism, our souls really are changed.
我们在基督里成为新造的人。 We become new creations in Christ.
洗礼在灵魂上留下不可磨灭的印记，这就是为什么它永远不会重复。 Baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul, and that's why it is never repeated.
不可磨灭？ Indelible?
呃，不可磨灭的意思是不能被抹去。 Uh, indelible in the sense it can't be erased.
好的。 Okay.
所以我们相信圣事—— So the sacraments we believe-
呼。 Whoo.
…… ...
它们——比如说，如果你领受了告解的恩典，你去到神面前，认 你的罪，如果你在生命中又犯了另一个重罪，你可以再去告解。 that they l- so for example, if you receive the grace of confession, you go to God, you confess your sins, you can go to confession again if you commit another grave sin in your life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但是三个圣事，洗礼、坚振——就是接受坚振油膏来加强你作为基督徒 的力量，还有圣秩，比如成为祭司，这些在灵魂上留下永恒的印记。 But three sacraments, baptism, confirmation, so receiving the oils of confirmation to strengthen you as a Christian, and holy orders, like becoming a priest, those leave an unchanging mark on the soul.
所以一旦你受洗…… So once you are baptized...
所以对你来说，你——你永远都是公教徒。 So for you, you- you will always be a Catholic.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
那个洗礼是——是有效的。 That baptism was- was valid.
我的意思是，你可能对此有不同的神学观点和看法—— I mean, you might have different theology and views about that-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
但我们会说——所以比如说，如果你要成为公教徒，你不会重新受洗。 but we would s- so for example, if you were to become Catholic, you would not be rebaptized.
好的。 Okay.
你会——你会接受坚振圣事，比如说，来完全共融 ，但如果确定有记录表明你接受了有效的洗礼。 You would- you would receive the Sacrament of Confirmation, for example, to be in full communion, but if it was determined, there's a record you received a valid baptism.
所以我们会说，对于婴儿来说，就像我说的，悔改、接受、保持。 So we would say, like for an infant, like I said, repent, receive, remain.
只是会变成接受、悔改、保持。 It would just be more receive, repent, remain.
所以他们——当婴儿接受洗礼时，他们接受圣灵。 So they re- when an infant receives baptism, they receive the Holy Spirit.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
他们是基督徒。 They are a Christian.
对他们的救恩绝对100%没有疑问。 There is absolutely 100% no doubt about their salvation.
是的。 Yeah.
所以很有趣，在早期教会，如果一个婴儿在受洗后死去，教堂的钟会持续敲 响，因为这几乎被视为一个小型的册封圣人，绝对100%没有疑问—— So i- interesting that w- when infants in the early church, if an infant were to die after baptism, the- the church bells would continuously ring for their funerals because it was treated as almost a mini canonization, that there is absolutely 100% no doubt-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
这个受过洗的孩子在天堂。 this child who's- who has been baptized, uh, is in heaven.
是的。 Yeah.
所以很有趣的是，你甚至可以在古代基督教地下墓穴中看到为死去的孩子祈求的碑文。 And so i- and so it's very interesting that you see even in the ancient Christian catacombs, you'll see inscriptions asking for children who had died.
当然，2000年前在地下墓穴的时代，这是一个半数儿童在五岁前就夭折的时期。 And of course, 2,000 years ago in the catacombs, this is a time when half of all children died before the age of five.
你有—— You had- ...
当时有50%的死亡率。 there was a 50% - 50% mortality rate.
你——只有一半的人能活过五岁，因为疾病和恶劣的环境。 You- only half of all people made it past the age of five 'cause of disease and harsh conditions.
所以在地下墓穴中有很多基督徒祈求的例子，呃，我的帕洛斯，请为我祷告。 So in the catacombs there are many examples of Christians asking, uh, my Palos, please pray for me.
他一岁零三个月。 He is one year and three months.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这个想法是，当这些孩子受洗后，他们绝对确信这些孩子在天堂为他们在世上的父母祷告。 And the idea is that when these children were baptized, th- there was absolute assurance that they were in heaven praying for their parents who were- who were on Earth.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以这就是他们，你知道—— And so that's how they, you know-
哇。 Wow.
…… ...
他们是这样看待的，并寻求他们的代祷，因为毫无疑问这些小孩子确实在天堂。 viewed it and sought for their intercession because there was no doubt these young children assuredly were in heaven.
那么你能——你能追溯你受洗的情况—— So can you- can you trace like in your circumstance being baptized-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
当你17岁时，你能——在那种情况下，你能找到 或追踪或指出你被称义的那一刻，称义的时刻吗？ when you were 17, can you- i- in that situation, can you find or track or point out the moment where you were justified, the moment of justification?
是的。 Yes.
我会——我会说那是…… I w- I would say it was...
所以我们会说称义和成圣实际上是描述同一件事的两种方式—— So we would say justification and sanctification are really two ways of describing the same thing-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
因为我们相信—— because we believe-
有趣。 Interesting.
所以加尔文派在这点上不同，对吧？ So Calvinists are different there, right?
确实非常不同。 Very much so.
是的。 Yeah.
确实非常不同。 Very much so.
事实上，称义和成圣的区分实际上更多是源于新教改革。 And in fact, the distinction of justification and sanctification really was born more out of the Protestant Reformation.
当你看早期教父们的著作，他们真的认为—— When you look to the early church fathers, they were really considered-...
是描述同一件事的方式。 the same way of describing things.
是的。 Yeah.
基本上是同义的。 Basically, it's synonymous.
是的。 Yeah.
所以如果称义使你与神和好，成圣使你成为圣洁 ，那么，使我们与神和好的就是我们成为圣洁。 So if justification makes you right with God and sanctification makes you holy, well, what makes us right with God is that we become holy.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们成为，我们成为圣洁，如同神是圣洁的。 We become, we become holy as God is holy.
所以我们，我会说有一个时刻我接受了信心的恩赐—— So we, I would say that there was a moment where I received the gift of faith-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
当我开始相信耶稣是神的时候，在我受洗之前。 when I came to believe Jesus is God, before I was baptized.
那是我不配得的。 That's something I didn't merit.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
它只是通过学习和思考进入我的心，我认出耶稣是主，然后我想寻求洗礼。 It just came into my heart through study and reflection, and I recognized Jesus as Lord, and then I wanted to seek baptism.
就是在我受洗的那一刻我被称义，我从…… That it was at the moment that I was baptized that I was justified, that I went from being...
现在，如果我在接受洗礼之前就死了，教会有一个很长的传统叫做意愿洗礼—— Now, if I were to have died before receiving baptism, the church has a very long tradition of something called the baptism of desire-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
如果有人说：「你知道，我想成为基督徒，我相信耶稣，我想受洗 」，然后你被公共汽车撞了，或者2000年前，被马车撞了—— that if someone says, "You know, I wanna be a Christian and I believe in Jesus and I want baptism," and you get hit by a bus, or 2,000 years ago, hit by a chariot-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
呃，这是教会的一个很长的传统，这些人仍然被 埋葬在基督教墓地，因为人们认识到他们是…… uh, this is a very long tradition in the church, that those people were still buried in Christian cemeteries because it was recognized that they were...
我们用的术语是慕道者，一个正在寻求—— The term we use is a catechumen, one who is seeking-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
要受洗的人。 to be baptized.
我们认为因为他们渴望受洗，神能够赐给他们洗礼 的恩典，因为知道他们会在接受洗礼之前死去。 And we would recognize that because they desired baptism, God is able to provide the graces of baptism to them, knowing that they're going to die before they receive it.
是的。 Yeah.
所以对于—— So for-
顺便说一下，我们也有类似的东西。 We've got something similar like that, by the way.
是的。 Yeah.
呃，有时会指出亚伯拉罕的例子，就是—— Uh, that sometimes an example of, like, Abraham is pointed out, that-
对。 Right.
…… ...
神看亚伯拉罕和以撒献祭的行动时说：「好，他会去做。 God sees the action with Abraham and Isaac in the sacrifice as, "Okay, he's going to do it.
我知道他会去做。」 I know he's going to do it."
对。 Right.
所以他看待这件事的方式不同。 And so he sees that differently.
就像，你知道，那个老例子是，呃，有人正要去受洗， 但他们滑倒了，撞到了头，然后死了或类似的情况。 Like, it's, you know, the old thing is, uh, the hypothetical that gets thrown out is, like, someone's about to go get baptized, but they slip and fall, they hit their head and they die or something like that.
我们会称之为意愿洗礼。 And we would call that baptism of desire.
好的。 Okay.
这在教会历史中有很长的认可。 And there's very, uh, long recognition of that in the church's history.
呃，所以在那里我会说我有了信心的恩赐，我寻求洗礼。 Uh, so there I would say that I had the gift of faith and I sought baptism.
当我受洗时…… And when I was baptized...
这件事的伟大之处在于…… And what's great about this is that this...
我们确实相信救恩是一个过程，而不是一个时刻。 We do believe salvation is a process, not a moment.
但是有一个最初的时刻，你从亚当的子女，一个带着原 罪的人，一个靠自己的能力永远不能配得天堂的人。 But there is an initial moment when you go from being a child of Adam, someone who is in original sin, someone who by their natural powers can never merit heaven.
你没有什么特别之处配得它。 There's nothing special about you to merit it.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
从那里开始，洗礼的水洗去罪。 That from there, the waters of baptism wash away sin.
你重生了，就像约翰福音3:5所说的。 You are born again, as John 3:5 says.
你接受，你接受圣灵，使徒行传2:38。 And you receive, you receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38.
这太相似了。 That's so similar.
确实。 Exactly.
太相似了。 So similar.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我们，所以我们会说，那就是…… So we, so we would say that, that that is...
那就是最初称义的时刻。 That would be the mom- that was the moment of initial justification.
所以作为公教徒，比如说，我们可能会引用雅各书第二章，当 它说：「人称义是因着行为，不是单因着信。」教会很…… So as Catholics, like for example, we might quote James chapter two, when it says, "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone." The church is very...
教会，特兰特会议——不是我的节目，而是16世纪的公教会—— The church, the Council of Tre- not my show, but the 16th century Catholic-
公会。 CIO.
是的。 Yeah.
那个，嗯，在新教改革之后举行的大公会议，雅各书中的那节经文 ，「人称义是因着行为，不是单因着信」，它只是——呃，抱歉。 The, um, the ecumenical council held in the wake of the Protestant Reformation, that verse in James, "A man is justified by works and not by faith alone," it is only si- uh, excuse me.
它在会议中只被用来描述我们在受洗后与神的恩典合作所做的工作。 It is only cited in the council to describe works we do in cooperation with the grace of God after baptism.
嗯。 Mm.
当我们做善工时…… That when we do good work...
所以以弗所书2:10，比如—— So Ephesians 2:10, for ex-
是的。 Yeah.
以弗所书2:8-10。 Ephesians 2:8-10.
人们会拿着那个说：「哦，你知道，我们是靠恩典得救。 People will take that and say, "Oh, you know, we're saved by grace.
不是出于任何行为。」 It's not of any works."
是的。 Yeah.
「我们是…… "We were...
这些是为我们预备的工作。」 They're works that were prepared for us."
他们试图用这个来反对你。 They try to use that against you.
是的。 Yeah.
就像，他们尽可能地用它来反对宗教。 Like, as much as they try to use it against religion.
对。 Right.
确实。 Exactly.
是的。 Yeah.
因为我们会说：「嗯，不，我们同意。」就像，当我—— Because what we would say is, "Well, no, we agree." Like, when I-
我对那段经文没有问题。 I don't have a problem with that passage.
是的。 Yeah.
马丁·路德也没有问题，因为路德相信洗礼能拯救。 And neither did Martin Luther, 'cause Luther believed that baptism saves.
路德说：「是的，洗礼拯救我们。」以弗所书2:8-9， 「我们得救不是因着行为。」这只是表明洗礼不是行为。 And Luther said, "Yes, baptism saves us." Ephesians 2:8-9, "We are not saved by works." All that shows is that baptism is not a work.
那—— That-
是的，确实。 Yeah, exactly.
这只是表明，你知道，我们不是靠行为得救。 It just shows then that, you know, we are not saved by works.
我们是靠洗礼得救。 We are saved by baptism.
所以一些新教徒会从那个论点得出结论，因此，我们不是靠洗礼得救。 So some Protestants will take from that argument, therefore, we are not saved by baptism.
是的。 Yeah.
呃，他们会说：「不，不，我们不是靠行为得救。 Uh, and they would say, "No, no, we're not saved by works.
洗礼拯救，因此洗礼不是行为。」它只是我们接受的东西。 Baptism saves, therefore baptism is not a work." It is just something that we receive.
否则，如果你把它说成：「嗯，这是你做的事，这是你为得救而 做的事」，按照这个定义，每个新教徒都相信基于行为的救恩。 Otherwise, if, if you put it as, "Well, it's something you do, it's something you do to be saved," by that definition, every Protestant believes in works-based salvation.
是的。 Yeah.
你做的事。 Something you do.
当我说「主啊，我爱你」时，我做了什么吗？ Do I do something when I say, "I love you, Lord.
我相信你」，当我听福音时，当我思考它时—— I believe in you," when I listened to the gospel, when I thought about it-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
当我宣告信仰时？ when I profess faith?
任何…… Any...
你总可以把我们做的任何事描述为人的行为。 You could always describe anything we do as a human action.
是的。 Yeah.
或者耶稣说：「信神所差来的，这就是神的工。」 Or Jesus said, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
对。 Right.
约翰福音6:29。 John 6:29.
是的。 Yeah.
所以信心是行为吗？ So is belief a work?
嗯，它不是…… Well, it's not...
它不仅仅是人的行为。 It is not a merely human work.
是的。 Yeah.
它是我们做的工作，只是因为神的恩典使它成为可能—— It is a work that we do only because God's grace makes it possible-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
我们与那恩典合作。 and we cooperate with that grace.
我们选择允许神…… We choose to allow God...
所以我要说的是，人没有能力配得天堂。 So what I would say is that a human being has no ability to merit heaven.
我们不能做任何事来赚取天堂，但我们可以做一些事来失去资格。 There's nothing we can do to earn heaven, but there are things we can do to de-merit.
我们可以做一些事来赚取地狱。 There's things we can do to earn hell.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们可以靠行为走向地狱。 We can work our way to hell.
你不能靠行为进天堂。 You can't work your way to heaven.
罪的工价乃是死。 Wages of sin is death.
是的。 Yeah.
约翰福音6:23。 John 6:23.
是的。 Yeah.
所以当雅各书2:24谈到我们因行为称义，不是因着信心时 ，它谈的是我们在受洗后所做的工作如何真正地讨神喜悦。 So when, when James 2:24 talks about we are justified by works and not by faith, it's talking about how the works we do after baptism genuinely please God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以在做这些事时，它使我们变得更圣洁。 And so in doing that, it makes us become holier.
这增加了我们的称义。 It increases our justification.
所以我的朋友吉米·埃金给出了这个关于称义的比喻。 So my friend Jimmy Akin gives this analogy for justification.
想象一道光。 Consider a light.
一道光可以有两种品质。 So a light can have two qualities.
光可以有它的纯度和它的亮度。 The light can be its purity and its radiance.
所以你可能有一道非常白、非常纯净的光，但它非常暗淡。 So you could have a light that is very, very white and pure, but it's very, very dim.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
或者你可能有一道非常明亮但不是很白的光。 Or you could have a very radiant light that's not very white.
它有点偏橙色或偏红色。 It's kind of orange-ish or reddish.
它有点像脏光。 It's kind of a dirty light.
所以我们相信当我们受洗时，我们接受了基督的纯净之光。 So we believe that when we are baptized, we receive the pure light of Christ.
这是纯粹的称义。 It's, it's pure justification.
我们无法增加那个。 There's nothing we can do to increase that.
这就是我们在洗礼中接受的基督的称义。 There's just a justification of Christ that we receive in baptism.
然而，这在我们生命中的光辉—— However, the radiance of that in our lives-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
呃，这在我们所行的圣洁中有多明显，这光辉可以增加或减少。 uh, wha- how much that is evident in that, in the holiness that we do, that radiance of it can increase or decrease.
就像耶稣说：「让你们的光照在人前。」 Similar to when Jesus says, "Let your light shine before men."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你知道，或者你所做的工作。 You know, or the works that you do.
或者神在罗马书第二章中谈到那些因行为得赏赐的人，耶稣甚至 用希腊词misthos来说那些行善的人会得到工价或赏赐。 Or how God, you know, in Romans chapter two, talking about those who will be rewarded for their works, that Jesus even uses the Greek word misthos to talk about those who do good works will receive a wage or a reward.
所以这里的想法是，在受洗之后，我们所做的工作，神因此喜悦。 So the idea here is that after baptism, the works we do, God is pleased by them.
神不是必须付给我们。 God doesn't have to pay us.
他不是必须赏赐我们。 He doesn't have to reward us.
所以这不是我们赚取的工价。 So it's not a wage we earn.
这只是因为他是我们在天上的父，他说：「我爱你。」就 像当我的孩子做了好事，我让他们做什么，他们就去做。 It's just the fact that He's our father in heaven and He has said, "I love you." It's like when my kids do something good and I ask them to do something and they do it.
我会奖励他们。 I'll reward them.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我在法律上不是必须这样做。 I don't have to legally.
但这是因为我向他们许诺，我是他们的父亲，我爱他们。 But it's because I made a promise to them and I'm their father and I love them.
是的。 Yeah.
因为如果我严格按照工作的价值付给他们—— Because if I paid them based strictly on the value of the work- ...
他们才四岁。 they're four.
这不会值什么。 It's not gonna be worth anything.
是的。 Yeah.
但对我来说这很有价值，因为他们是我的孩子。 But it's worth something to me because they're my children.
就像，如果其他四岁的孩子想让我付钱，我会说：「那太糟糕了。」 Like, if some other four-year-old tried to get me to pay for something, I'd say, "That's terrible."
是的。 Yeah.
我有时会谈到这个，就像，呃，当你的孩子给你带回家那个通心粉相框—— I talk about this sometimes that, like, uh, when your kid brings you home the macaroni frame thing-
是的。 Yes.
…… ...
客观来说，它很糟糕。 objectively, it sucks.
是的。 Yeah.
它不好看。 It's not nice.
是的。 Yeah.
但对你来说它如此美丽，你爱它，你为此鼓掌，你很…… But it's so beautiful to you and you love it and you applaud them for it and you're so...
是的，你为此高兴。 Yeah, you're happy about it.
这就是我们对受洗后所做的工作的看法。 And that's what we believe then about works that are done after baptism.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
它们…… They...
在受洗后，你不需要做任何善工来得救。 There are no good works you do to be saved after baptism.
不是说你必须…… It's not like you have to...
我必须救济这么多穷人或者我必须做这么多善事。 I have to feed this many poor people or I have to do this many good deeds.
是的。 Yeah.
那，那太可怕了。 That, that would be awful.
想着「我必须做任意数量的善事」，这将是一个如此谨小慎微的噩梦。 That would be such a scrupulous nightmare to think, "I have to do an arbitrary number of good deeds."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但当我们做圣洁的工作时，这本质上，实际上，就像我们的武术或举重，不管是什么—— But when we do do works of holiness, it's essentially, in fact, our, you know, martial arts or weightlifting, whatever it may be-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
这本质上是属灵的举重，因为我们生活在一个世界…… it's essentially spiritual weightlifting, because we live in a world...
我是说，保罗对哥林多人说撒但是这世界的神。 I mean, Paul said over to the Corinthians and says that Satan is the god of this world.
你知道，我们，我们真的处在属灵的危险中。 You know, we are, we are really in spiritual danger.
他不能违背我们的意愿把我们从神那里拉走。 He can't pull us away from God against our will.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但他能，他能诱惑我们自由选择跟随他。 But he can, he can tempt us to freely choose to follow him.
是的。 Yeah.
你让我想起改革宗人士对约翰福音第10章的误用，耶稣说： 「谁也不能从我手里把他们夺去。」他并没有说任何关于—— You're, you're reminding me of the, the misuse by reformed people in John 10 there, where Jesus said, "No one can snatch them out of my hand." He's not saying anything about whether or not-
对。 Right.
…… ...
信徒是否能离开耶稣的事，只是说第三方不能介入。 a believer could depart from Jesus, just that a third party can't come in.
确实。 Exactly.
魔鬼不能把你拖走，让你又踢又叫 The devil can't drag you, kicking and screaming
对。 Right.
或者人们说：「你知道，我的羊听我的声音。 Or people say, "You know, my sheep hear my voice.
那是…… That's...
他们也跟着我。」 And they follow me."
是的。 Yeah.
这绝对正确。 That's absolutely right.
但问题是，谁选择继续做羊？ But the question is, who chooses to remain a sheep?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这是…… It's...
当你看这些应许时，比如「我的羊听我的声音，他们也跟着我 」，嗯——有一个，呃，戴尔，呃，他的名字是戴尔·穆迪。 When you look at a lot of those promises, like, "My sheep hear my voice and they follow me," um-There was a, uh, Dale, er, his name was Dale Moody.
他是一个浸信会信徒，实际上他写过这个，他开始否定你不能失去救恩的观点。 He was, he was a Baptist who was actually writing on this, who came to reject the idea you couldn't lose your salvation.
他有一整本书讲这个主题。 He has a whole, whole book on the subject.
他指出这些应许总是用现在时态。 And he points out these promises are always in the present tense.
圣经没有说：「任何曾经相信我的人——」 It doesn't say in scripture, "Anyone who believed in me-"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
「…… "...
永远不会堕落，或者会，会听我的。 shall never fall away, or will, will listen to me.
相信我的人。」 He who believes me."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
「跟随我的人。」这些应许是给那些目前跟随耶稣基督的人的。 "He who follows me." That the promises are for those who are the current followers of Jesus Christ.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这是个很好的观点。 That's a great point.
所以这就是为什么当我们谈论，你知道，这些我们做的工作时 ，在受洗后得救唯一要做的就是不要在大罪的状态下死去。 So that's why when we're talking about, you know, these kinds of works that we do, the only work one must do after baptism to be saved is to not die in a state of grave sin.
只要不在大罪的状态下死去。 Just don't die in a state of grave sin.
我们可以看看我们的灵魂说：「好的，有些事我做了，这些是小过 」，我们称之为小罪，就是，就是，我们每天做的那些不足之处。 And we can look in our souls and say, "Okay, there's some things I do, these are minor offenses," what we would call venial sin, the, the, the things we do every day where we fall short.
但我想每个基督徒内心深处都知道有一些严重违反十诫的事，你会说：「哇 ，那真的很糟糕。」比如，我们不会请求神赦免我们每天犯的每一个罪。 But I think every Christian knows deep down there's some serious violations of the Ten Commandments you'd say, "Wow, that was really bad." For example, we don't ask God to forgive every individual sin we commit during the day.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
那我们什么时候才能做事？ When would we get anything done?
你知道吗？ You know?
是的。 Yeah.
但有一些严重的罪我们会觉得：「哦，我需要请求神赦免这个。」 But there are some serious sins we feel like, "Oh, I need to ask God forgiveness for this."
是的，百分之百。 Yes, 100%.
所以我们要说的就是不要在拒绝请求那种赦免的状态下死去。 And so what we would say is just don't die in a state of refusing to ask for that forgiveness.
所以不要，不要停留，不要做坏事并停留在坏的状态中，也不要拒绝 做好事，比如在主日在教会团契中敬拜神，或在圣餐中领受耶稣。 And so don't, don't remain, don't do the bad things and stay in the bad state, and don't refuse to do the good things, like worshiping God on Sunday in the community at church, or receiving Jesus in the Eucharist.
事实上，公教会只要求你每年领受一次圣餐。 In fact, the Catholic Church only obliges you to receive the Eucharist once a year.
嗯。 Hmm.
你只是—— You just-
真的吗？ Really?
嗯，有些，我是说，世界上有些地方没有那么多，没有多少机会接触到祭司， 或者有人可能处于大罪状态，没有，你知道，觉得他们不能接近，呃，圣事。 Well, there's, I mean, there's some part, places around the world where there aren't as many, much access to priests, or someone could be in a state of mortal sin, not have, you know, not feel like they can approach, uh, the sacrament.
但是，所以虽然你必须每个主日敬拜神，呃，你只需要每年领受一次圣餐。 But, so while you have to worship God every Sunday, uh, you only have to receive the Eucharist once a year.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但你确实…… But you do...
但我们相信因为—— But we believe that because-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
约翰福音第6章，耶稣很清楚地说：「你们若不吃 我的肉，不喝我的血，就没有生命在你们里面。」 John 6, Jesus is very clear, "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life within you."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以我们就像最早的基督徒那样理解，耶稣，他是逾越节的羔羊，你知道，他，他死了，你 知道，他的腿没有折断，他是无瑕疵的男性，他，你知道，他作为新的逾越节羔羊死了。 And so we take that just as the very first Christians did, that Jesus, he is the Passover lamb, you know, he, he died, you know, his legs are not broken, he's a male without blemish, he, you know, he died as the new Passover lamb.
所以旧的逾越节羔羊死了然后被吃掉。 So the old Passover lamb dies and then is eaten.
我们相信基督为我们的罪而死所以死亡越过我们，他也以饼和酒的形式被领受。 We believe that Christ dies for our sins so death passes over us, and he is also received under the form of bread and wine.
所以这是公教会救恩计划的一个很重要的部分，一直都是。 And so that's a very important part of the Catholic plan of salvation, and it has been.
最早的基督徒认识到，你知道，圣餐的重要性，这就是为什么—— The very first Christians recognized the, you know, the importance of the Eucharist, and that's why-
很有趣。 Very interesting.
是的。 Yeah.
好的。 Okay.
好，那，那实际上是一个很好的转折点。 Well, that, that's actually a good point to transition here.
嗯，在我们花了，呃，足够的时间，呃，批评加 尔文派和其他所有否认洗礼必要性的人之后—— Um, after, now that we've spent, uh, a good enough time, uh, dunking on the Calvinists and everyone else, uh, who denied that baptism is necessary-
是的。 Yes.
…… ...
嗯，我，我认为我们现在最大的分歧点是在谁需要洗礼这个问题上。 um, I, I think our biggest point of divergence now here is when it comes to who needs baptism.
而且，这就是变得奇怪的地方。 And with, this is where it gets weird.
是的。 Yeah.
语言变得奇怪因为—— The language gets weird because-
是的，确实如此。 Yes, it does.
…… ...
我们都会说洗礼拯救。 we would both say baptism saves.
是的。 Yeah.
洗礼拯救，但你会给每个人施洗，嗯，我，每个——就年龄而言。 Baptism saves, but you would baptize everybody, well, I, everyo- as far as age goes.
呃，而我——我只会给我认为有责任能力的人施洗或者—— Uh, and w- I would only baptize people who I would say are accountable or-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
负责任的年龄，这也很奇怪。 age of accountability, which that's weird too.
我很高兴能得到，嗯，既得到你的观点—— And I'm very happy about getting, um, both getting your perspective-
是的，当然。 Yeah, sure.
…… ...
也能被稍微盘问一下这个问题。 but also getting cross-examined a little bit about this.
当然，是的。 Sure, yeah.
因为我自己对这些事情也有疑问。 Because there, there are questions I have myself about all this stuff.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
而且，很多人都说：「呃，你确定你想要，呃，和，呃，特伦特·霍恩谈话」之类的。 And, and a lot of people were like, "Uh, are you sure you want to, uh, talk to, uh, Trent Horn" or something like that.
我说：「伙计，我不……」再说，就像我—— I'm like, "Dude, I don't..." Again, like I-
是的，没问题。 Yeah, that's fine.
…… ...
嗯，当我是五旬节派的时候所在的教会，那种五旬节派的教 会，嗯，当我真的确信，呃，那种真理，你知道，我不…… um, the church that I was part of when I was part of Pentecostal, that Pentecostal kind of church, um, when I really was convinced that, uh, the truth of like, you know, I don't...
呃，呃，是的，关于很多事情，比如我不认为罪 人的祷告在圣经里，我完全不认为那是有效的。 U- uh, well yeah, about a lot of stuff, like I don't think the sinner's prayer is in the Bible and I don't think that's valid at all.
有——有其他新教徒也认识到这一点并这样说。 Ther- there are other Protestants who have, who have recognized that and say that.
而且，而且—— And, and-
我没有注意到，而且有一点远离那个的趋势。 I haven't noticed it, and there's a little bit of a trend away from that.
我，我想甚至雷·康福特，呃，你知道，那个，那个，那个主道，呃，你知道…… I, I think even Ray Comfort, uh, you know, the, the, the w- Way of the Master, uh, you know...
雷总是说什么，雷总是…… What, what does, what does Ray always...
他总是说，呃，「你是说谎者吗？ Who he always says, uh, "Are you a liar?
你是小偷吗？」「所有的十诫。」你知道。 Are you a thief?" "All the Ten Commandments." You know.
呃，我，我喜欢雷。 Uh, I, I love Ray.
嗯，我，我邀请过他—— Well, I've, I've asked him-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
来我的节目但他，他一直在拒绝，但是—— to be on my show and he's, he's kept declining, but-
啊。 Ah.
…… ...
也许有一天。 maybe one day.
也许有一天。 Maybe one day.
嗯，但我想他也不，不喜欢—— Um, but I think he also doesn't, doesn't prefer-
好的。 Okay.
…… ...
罪人的祷告，所以是的。 the sinner's prayer either, so yeah.
是的，所以当我意识到那不在圣经里时，我…… Yeah, so when I realized that wasn't in the Bible, I was...
然后，然后我看到了一条更好的道路，我相信圣经教导如何成为基督徒，当我开始和基督会 的成员一起学习时，我想：「好吧，这个转变会很糟糕，但这是，这是对的。」而且—— And, and then I saw a, a much better path and what I believe the Bible teaches on how to become a Christian, when I started studying with members of the Church of Christ, I thought, "Well, this is gonna suck, this transition, but it's, it's what's right." And-
是的。 Yeah.
我只是不害怕，呃，真理。 I'm just not scared of, uh, the truth.
我不知道为什么人们，嗯…… I don't know why people, um...
呃，有些人不会做事是因为害怕被审视或者他们—— Uh, there's some people that wouldn't do stuff because of the scrutiny of it or they're-
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
…… ...
会有人…… gonna have people...
我不知道，这只是不困扰我。 I don't know, it just doesn't bother me.
我不害怕它。 I'm not scared of it.
所以我很高兴能…… So I'm happy to get...
我想让你对我进行一些盘问—— And I want you to kind of cross-examine me-
好的，让我们聊聊。 Yeah, let's chat.
…… ...
稍后对这个问题进行一些讨论。 a little bit about it in a little bit.
所以，嗯，对你来说给婴儿施洗的基本，嗯，基本原因是什么？ So, um, what is the basic, um, the basic reason for baptizing infants for you?
给婴儿施洗的基本原因和我们给每个人施洗的原因是一样的。 The basic reason for baptizing infants is the same reason we would baptize every single human being.
是的。 Yeah.
就是我们生来就带着原罪。 That we are born in a state of original sin.
所以这不是我们实际犯下的罪。 So this is not an actual sin that we have committed.
这是缺乏神的恩典。 It is a deprivation of God's grace.
所以我们会说亚当和夏娃，他们有超自然的恩赐， 呃，赐给他们，就是他们与神和谐相处的事实。 So we would say that Adam and Eve, they had preternatural gifts, uh, given to them, the fact that they lived in friendship and harmony with God.
这些恩赐本应使他们免于死亡，比如说，免于疾病的痛苦，呃 ，他们与神和谐相处并拥有这些恩赐，这恩典，这神的恩赐。 And so those gifts would have prevented them from dying, for example, from suffering from disease, uh, and they lived in friendship with God and had these gifts, this grace, this gift of God.
但因为他们的叛逆和拒绝神，他们失去了那些超自然的恩赐。 But because of their rebellion and rejection of God, they lost those preternatural gifts.
他们失去了那特殊的恩典和与神的友谊，他们无法将其传给他们的后代。 They lost that special grace and friendship with God, and they were unable to pass that on to their descendants.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以当圣经谈到亚当的罪和我们，你知道，我们与 亚当的关系时，这就是在这里描述的，那个…… And so when the Bible speaks about Adam's sin and about us, you know, our relationship to Adam, that's what's being described here, that that...
因为圣经说我们，「不因父母的罪惩罚儿女。」 Because the Bible says that we, "You do not punish children for the sins of their parents."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以原罪不是神因亚当所做的惩罚我们，而是亚当本质上在惩罚我们—— So original sin is not God punishing us for what Adam did, it's Adam essentially punishing us-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
通过他自己的决定。 through his own decision.
这就像一个人中了彩票，他的后代本可以衣食无忧，但后来他 为了得到更多钱而作弊，被抓住了，不得不放弃所有的奖金。 It would be like if a man won the lottery and his descendants are gonna be set for life, but then he cheats to try to get more money and then he's caught and has to forfeit all of his ear- his winnings.
这样做，他的子——他的后代现在因此受苦，但这不是他们的错。 In doing that, his chil- his descendants now suffer because of that, but not through any fault.
是的。 Yeah.
但只是因为他们本可以，他们本可以得到财富但现在却得到了，嗯，缺乏，所以—— But just because they could have been, they could have received riches but instead now they receive, um, a lack of it, so-
他们本是富孩子，现在是穷孩子。 They were rich kids, now they're poor kids.
确实。 Exactly.
所以当亚当和夏娃与神和好时，我们是富足的。 And so when Adam and Eve were in God's friendship, we were rich.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但当他们拒绝时，我们在灵性上变得贫穷。 But then when they rejected, we became spiritually poor.
好的。 Okay.
所以因为这个，这影响了每一个人，每一个人，呃，除了蒙福的童贞马利亚。 And so because of that, that's afflicted every single human being, every human being, uh, with the exception of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
这是一个我们可以另外讨论的问题。 That's a separate bearing issue we can always get into.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但是每个人都因此受到原罪的影响。 But tho- but every human being is afflicted with original sin because of that.
所以原罪的解药就是洗礼。 And so the antidote then to original sin is baptism.
当我们接受洗礼时，我们接受圣灵，我们接受神的成圣恩 典，我们不再是亚当的儿女，我们成为神的养子养女。 When we receive baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit, we receive God's sanctifying grace, we are no longer children of Adam, we become adopted sons and daughters of God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
没有什么能改变这一点。 And nothing can ever undo that.
无论你犯了多么可怕的罪都不需要重新受洗。 No horrible sin you commit ever requires you to be rebaptized.
不可——不可磨灭的印记。 Indel- indelibly marked.
是的，确——确实。 Yeah, u- exactly.
它在灵魂上留下不可磨灭的印记。 It leaves an indelible mark on the soul.
所以我们只是说如果洗——彼得前书3:21，如果洗 礼是拯救我们的，而我们会说每一个人，包括婴儿—— And so we would just say that if bap- that 1 Peter 3:21, if baptism is what saves us, and we would say every single human being, including infants-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
都需要救恩，因为你不能靠自己的功德上天堂， 因为每个人都需要救恩，每个人都应该受洗。 stand in need of salvation, because you cannot get to heaven on your own human merits, because every human being stands in need of salvation, every human being ought to be baptized.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以这就是，这就是教会2000年来所教导的。 And so that's, that's what the Church has taught, yeah, for 2,000 years.
好的。 Okay.
嗯，所以基本上是第二步，就像…… Um, so is basically the second step in, like...
因为就像我们从亚当那里得到的最温和的答案可能是，我们得 到了堕落，就像这个世界，我们得到了罪被引入的世界—— 'Cause like the softest form of the answer of like what we get from Adam is probably, we get the fallen, like the world, we get the world where sin is introduced-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
诸如此类的事情。 and stuff like that.
我想这可能是人们说我们从亚当那里得到什么的最温和的说法，对吧？ I think that's probably the softest form of where people say what we get from Adam, right?
对。 Right.
我们基本上只是得到了一个罪存在的世界—— We just get the world where sin exists, basically-
没错。 That's right.
…… ...
还有苦难和死亡之类的事情。 and suffering and death and stuff like that.
所以这就像第二步，就是，不仅仅是世界，而是我们也是，我们不…… So this is like the second step, which is, it's not just the world, but it's us as well, that we don't...
我们生来就没有，呃，恩典的特权—— We're not born with, uh, grace privilege-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
我想在某种意义上是这样。 I guess in a sense.
虽——虽然我要说的是死亡—— Al- although what I would say is that death-...
在堕落之前就存在。 existed before the fall.
所以我—— So I-
哦，对。 Oh, right.
对。 Right.
因为我会说—— 'Cause I would say-
对的，我忘了这个。 That's right, I forgot about this.
是的。 Yeah.
我会说死亡存——我认为很明显当亚当和夏娃发明沙拉时就有某种死亡。 I would say that death ex- and I think it's very clear there was some kind of death whenever Adam and Eve invented the salad.
是的。 Yeah.
神说：「拿这些绿叶——」 That God says, "Take these green leaves-"
。 .
「…… "...
来吃。」它们，它们在你的消化系统里不会持续很久。 and eat." They're, they're not gonna last long in your digestive system.
呃，所以是有死亡，但从堕落而来的死亡是人的死亡。 Uh, so there was death, but the death that came about from the fall was human death.
因为缺乏这些神的恩赐，人的身体变得可朽坏，人性改变了。 That by the lacking these gifts of God, the human body became corruptible, human nature changed.
现在，洗礼并不能完全消除人性的改变。 Now, baptism doesn't fully undo the change in human nature.
我们不会变得刀枪不入—— We don't become invulnerable-
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
…… ...
但它确实恢复了我们的灵魂。 but it does restore our souls.
所以，这基本上就是你论证亚当之前就有死亡的方式吗？ So, is that how basically how you would argue for the presence of death before Adam?
是的。 Yes.
因为你知道，像肯·哈姆这样的人—— 'Cause like, you know, there's guys like Ken Ham who-
你在那里吗？ Were you there?
你6000年前在那里吗？ Were you there 6,000 years ago?
是的。 Yeah.
肯·哈姆会说，这——这是基本论点，嗯，必须是六个字面的 日子，因为否则你就会有亚当之前，亚当堕落之前的死亡。 Ken Ham would be like, th- that's the basic argument that, um, that it has to be six literal days because therefore you would have death before Adam, before Adam's fall.
是的。 Yeah.
这是其中一个论点。 That's one of the arguments.
但没有理由相信保罗在罗马书第5章中谈到的死亡，和那里提到的，只是…… But there's no reason to believe that the death that, what Paul is talking about in Romans 5 and what's being referred to there, is only...
是所有的死亡—— is all death-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
而不是仅仅是人的死亡。 rather than just human death.
有趣。 Interesting.
那是…… That it was...
是人类接受了—— It was human beings that received-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
接受了神特别的恩典。 that received the special grace of God.
而且，而且—— And, and-
公教徒可以相信他们想相信的—— And Catholics can believe what they want-
哦，是的，是的。 Oh, yeah, yeah.
…… ...
就这方面而言，对吧？ as, as far as that, right?
是的。 Yeah.
公教徒可以自由选择相信年轻地球创造论。 The Catholics are free to believe in young earth creationism.
有些公教徒相信地球不到10,000年。 There are Catholics who believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
是的。 Yeah.
有些公教徒，呃…… There are Catholics, uh...
乔治·勒梅特神父，他是一位公教会的蒙席，一位祭 司，他本质上发现了现在所称的大，大爆炸理论。 Father Georges Lemaître, he was a Catholic monsignor, a priest, who essentially discovered what was now called the big, Big Bang Theory.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
他称之为原始原子，认为宇宙从一个点开始然后—— He called it the primeval atom, the idea that the universe began from a single point and-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
膨胀。 expanded.
是另一位物理学家，弗雷德·霍伊尔，他是一个自然—— 不是自然神论者，他是一个无神论者，他嘲笑这个理论。 It was another physicist, Fred Hoyle, who was a De- not a Deist, he was an atheist, and he made fun of the theory.
。 .
因为他不喜欢一个公教会祭司说有一个开始。 Because he didn't like a Catholic priest saying there was a beginning.
他认为宇宙是永恒的。 He thought the universe was eternal.
哦，好的，好的。 Oh, okay, okay.
所以他说这只是勒梅特神父的大爆炸理论。 And so he said this is just that Big Bang Theory of Father Lemaître.
真的吗？ Really?
所以迷因总是赢。 So the memes always win.
是的。 Yeah.
迷因总是赢。 The memes always win.
是的，确实。 Yeah, exactly.
所以他就那样称呼它，这个名字就保留下来了。 So then so he called it that and the name stuck.
他实际上最后成为了一个自然神论者，基于宇宙中的设计。 He ended up becoming a deist actually, based on the design in the universe.
他没有成为基督徒，但霍伊尔开始相信有一位神。 He didn't become Christian, but Hoyle came to believe there was a God.
他不能想象这一切发生时没有，没有设计。 He couldn't think that all of this happened without, without design.
好的。 Okay.
呃，所以是的。 Uh, so yeah.
所以公教徒可以自由选择相信任何一种。 So Catholics are free to believe either thing.
在伽利略审判期间，有一位枢机主教，凯撒·巴罗尼乌斯，他曾经说过，呃，那个…… There was a cardinal during the trial of Galileo, Caesar Baronius, who once said, uh, that...
哦，是不是…… Oh, was it...
是他吗？ It was him?
不，不是古斯。 No, it wasn't Gus.
是他。 It was him.
「圣经教导我们如何去天堂，而不是天体如何运行。」你知道吗？ "The Bible teaches us how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go." You know?
哇。 Wow.
所以你是自由的，你可以自由选择相信任何一种。 So it's like you're free, you're free to believe either.
是的。 Yeah.
但是，但是我确实相信特别是在洗礼方面，它是必要 的，为了解除临到亚当所有后裔的属灵死亡的诅咒。 But, but I do believe when it comes to baptism especially, that it's necessary to undo the curse of spiritual death that came to all of Adam's descendants.
好的。 Okay.
而且我们所有人都需要这个。 And that all of us stand in need of that.
有趣。 Interesting.
是的。 Yeah.
那——那让我着迷。 Th- that fascinates me.
嗯，那让我着迷。 Um, that fascinates me.
所以，呃，给我的，给我的论点打个分吧。 So, uh, grade my, grade my arguments a little bit then.
当然，好的。 Sure, yeah.
或者，呃，稍微批评一下。 Or, uh, critique them a little bit.
。 .
所以基本上我会说，呃，神知道，呃…… So basically I would say that, uh, God knows, uh...
神——神知道孩子生来就有这种，呃，道德上的无知，无能。 S- God knows that children are born with this, uh, moral ignorance, incapability.
我认为在旧约中有足够多的段落，神似乎至少想要在审判中越过他们，因为…… And I think that there's enough passages for me in the Old Testament where God seems to, at the very least, desire to pass over them in judgment because of...
因为那是他们的状态。 because that's their state.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
而且，嗯，我，我不知道这个论点有多可靠，但是，你知道， 就像你，你可能听过申命记第1章的段落，「他们不知善恶。 And, um, I, I don't know how solid this argument is, but, you know, like you, you probably hear the passages like the Deuteronomy 1, "They don't know good from evil.
他们要进入应许之地，不是你们这些实际上叛逆的人——」 They're going to enter into the promised land, not the rest of you who actually did rebel-"
对。 Right.
「…… "...
反抗神。」呃，就像在约拿书第4章，约拿书的最后一节，嗯，他 说，你知道，「有十二万多不能分辨左右手的人，并有许多牲畜。 against God." Uh, like in Jonah 4, the very last verse of Jonah, um, there he says, you know, "There's 120,000 persons who don't know their right hand from their left and much livestock.
我岂能不爱惜呢？」我想，呃，我以前以为尼尼微有 12万人，但我想那是指，你知道，小孩子和婴儿。 Shouldn't I have pity on them?" And I think, uh, I used to think that there was 120,000 people in Nineveh, but I think that's in reference to, you know, little children and babies.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
嗯，但我不知道。 Um, but I don't know.
我想我在圣经中看到这个模式—— I think I see this pattern in scripture-
对。 Right.
…… ...
神想在审判中越过他们，因为他们不应该受到和其他人一样的愤怒。 where God wants to pass over them in judgment because they don't deserve the same wrath as everyone else.
也许这是我脑子里的一个稻草人，但似乎，就像，婴儿洗礼的想法，呃， 把婴儿和每个非，每个非基督徒都归为一类，我不知道神是否这样做。 And maybe this is a, a straw man that I have in my head, but it seems that, like, the idea of infant ba- baptism, uh, lumps infants and every non, every non-Christian together in a way that I don't know that God does.
所以我要说的是这里有一个，一个我同意的理解核心。 So what I would say is there is a, a kernel of understanding here that I agree with.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，所以在教理问答中—— Uh, so in the Catechism-
我先从核心开始。 I'll start with the kernel.
是的。 Yeah.
那很好。 That's good.
公教会的教理问答—— The Catechism of the-
。 .
…… ...
公教会教理问答第1257段说，救恩来自圣事，特别是洗礼，但神不受圣事的约束。 Catholic Church, paragraph 1257, it says that salvation comes from the sacraments, specifically baptism, but that God is not bound by the sacraments.
所以神可以自由地用任何方式拯救人。 So God is free to save people however God wants to.
好的。 Okay.
呃，所以说，嗯，神不能…… Uh, so to say that, well, God cannot...
比如说，没有受洗的人，呃，绝对不能得救，嗯，神可以选择拯救他想拯救的任何人。 Someone who is not baptized, uh, for example, definitely cannot be saved, well, God can choose to save whoever he wants.
是的。 Yeah.
呃，类似于某人，比如说他们生在一个从未听说 过耶稣的时代和地方，像一个美洲原住民—— Uh, similar to someone who, let's say they were born in a time and place where they could have never heard of Jesus, like a Native American-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
在500年的美国—— in the year 500 in the United States-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
或者，或者类似的情况，呃，从未听说过基督的人。 or, or something like that, uh, who had never heard of Christ.
呃，他们会因为他们无法控制的事情而被定罪吗？ Uh, are they damned because of something they had no control over?
有些基督徒会说：「是的，这是神的选择。」他们 有更排他的神学观点说：「是的，他们，他们…… And some Christians will say, "Yes, God chose that." And they have more of an exclusivist theology say, "Yeah, they, they're...
他们是罪人，神宣告了这个，你知道，赞美神。」其他…… They are a sinner and God declared this and, you know, praise be to God." Other...
但是许多其他基督徒会持包容的观点。 Many other Christians though would hold to an inclusivist view.
呃，当然这就是我所持的观点，这是公教会所持的观点，呃，这也是圣经所教导的。 Uh, and of course that's what I hold to, it's what the Catholic Church holds to, uh, and it's what the Bible teaches.
你知道，比如在罗马书第2章，保罗说那些没有律法写在石版上的人 ，就是，犹太人，十诫，他谈到外邦人如何有律法写在他们心里。 You know, in Romans 2, for example, Paul says that those who do not have the law written on stone, which would be the, the Jews, the Ten Commandments, he talks about how the gentiles have the law written on their hearts.
他们的良心要么控告他们，要么为他们辩护。 And by their conscience they will either be accused or excused.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以神能根据人的无知来审判人。 So God is able to judge people based on their ignorance.
你知道，他们，你知道，他们的无知是否不是他们的错，还是他们选 择保持无知说：「是的，我本可以了解耶稣，但我不想处理这些。 You know, were, you know, were they ignorant through no fault of their own or did they choose to remain in ignorance saying, "Yeah, I could have learned about Jesus, but I don't want to deal with all of that.
那太麻烦了。」那，那就是我们所说的可克服的无知，你可以克服的无知—— That's too much trouble." That, that's the difference we would call between vincible ignorance, ignorance you could overcome-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
如果你选择这样做，和不可——不可克服的无知，你不可能克服的无知之间的区别。 if you chose to, and ignor- invincible ignorance, ignorance you could not possibly have overcome.
好的。 Okay.
所以这确实有点联系到…… So it does tie in a little bit with...
就像有时候…… Like sometimes...
我，我想你也明白这个。 I, I think you get this too.
呃，有时人们会说洗礼不是必要的，因为，十字架上的强盗。 Uh, sometimes people will say baptism is not necessary because of the, the thief on the cross.
对。 Right.
这有无数的问题。 And there's a million problems with that.
第一，这不仅不是新约，呃，他们所处的新约，而且—— Number one, not only is it not new covenant, uh, instru- new covenant that they were under, but-
对。 Right.
…… ...
即使洗礼是必需的，我也不会成为那个说：「耶稣决定仅 用话语拯救那个人。」然后说：「嘿，耶稣，你不能…… even if baptism were required, I'm not gonna be the guy that goes, "Jesus decided to save that guy by word alone." And go, "Hey, Jesus, you can't...
你不能打破规则。」 You can't break the rules."
这太自以为是了。 It's very presumptive.
是的。 Yeah.
因为我们在这里看到的是神超越常规方式的非常的怜悯—— Because what we're seeing here would be an act of God's extraordinary mercy beyond the ordinary means-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
他给我们的。 he gave us.
我是谁，竟敢告诉耶稣：「你不能打破规则，耶稣」？ Who am I to tell Jesus, "You can't break the rules, Jesus"?
对。 Right.
所以如果神…… So if God...
仅仅因为神能通过非常方式行事，并不给我们忽视常规方式的权利。 Just because God can act via extraordinary means does not give us the right to neglect the ordinary means.
是的。 Yeah.
所以比如说，一个……的事实 So for example, the fact that an...
如果一个婴儿能不需要对基督的信心就上天堂…… if an infant can go to heaven without faith in Christ...
现在有一些新教徒相信婴儿可以有信心，那是另一个要讨论的主题。 Now there are some Protestants who believe infants can have faith, that's a different subject to get into.
但你不—— But you don't-
但是，呃，不，我不会…… But, uh, no, I would not...
我，我不会说他们有我们所…… I, I would not say that they have what we...
我们所定义的那种信心，呃，那种—— what we would define as faith in the sense of, uh, kind of-
你和我可以有的那种。 The kind that you and I could have.
是的，我们可以有的那种。 Yeah, that we can have.
对神的信任的行为，行为。 The act, act of trust in God.
呃，所以仅仅因为婴儿可以上天堂即使他们不相信耶稣，并 不意味着：「哦，我不必相信耶稣因为他们可以上天堂。」 Uh, so just because a infant can go to heaven even though they don't believe in Jesus doesn't mean, "Oh, I don't have to believe in Jesus 'cause they can go to heaven."
是的。 Yeah.
那是非常的。 That's extraordinary.
神已经给了我们常规的方式。 God has given us the ordinary means.
所以从公教会关于洗礼和婴儿的观点来看，我会说是的，对所有人来说…… So from the Catholic perspective on baptism and infants then, I would say yes, for all people there...
神已经给了…… God has given...
使他们有可能得救。 made it possible for them to be saved.
因为神爱所有人，他想要所有人得救，所以他使每个人都有可能得救。 Because God loves all people, he wants all people to be saved, so he has made it possible for every single person to be saved.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
神会根据他们所得到的来审判他们，什么，什么—— And God will judge them based on what they were given, what, what-
好的。 Okay.
…… ...
他们得到了什么启示的方式。 what means of revelation they were given.
那是—— That's-
你把它当作确定性吗？ Do you treat it like a certainty?
那是，那是下一步。 That's, that's the next step.
好的。 Okay.
所以然而，仅仅因为有可能，并不意味着那是确定的或甚至是可能的。 So however, just because there is a possibility, it does not mean that's a certainty or even a probability.
所以下一个问题就变成了，我们如何确保对人类 来说，它超越了仅仅的可能性而成为确定性？ So the next question becomes, how do we make sure that for human beings it goes beyond just a mere possibility to a certainty?
从第一世纪开始，答案就很清楚，就是洗礼。 And the answer to that is clear from the first century onward, is baptism.
洗礼给了我们那种确定性。 Baptism is what gives us that certainty.
或者至少是积极寻求洗礼的人—— Or at the very least someone actively seeking baptism-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
像意愿洗礼。 Like baptism of desire.
但洗礼是，是给予那种确定性的。 But baptism is, is what gives that certainty.
所以我会说我对待所有人…… So I would say that I treat all people......
婴儿或远方国家的非基督徒成年人都一样，就是所有人都有可能…… infants or non-Christian adults in a far off country the same, in that there is a possibility for all...
他们中的任何人都可能得救。 any of them to be saved.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
他们中的任何人都有可能得救。 There's a possibility for any of them to be saved.
但要把这从可能性提升到确定性，然而，呃，那需要洗礼。 But to raise that from possibility to certainty, however, uh, that would require baptism.
所以教会，比如说，当涉及到未受洗的婴儿时，教会教导说我们没有从神那里得到 启示说他们一定得救，但我们可以基于你描述的许多事情有一个充满希望的信任。 So the church, for example, says when it comes to unbaptized infants, w- the church teaches that we do not have a revelation from God that they are definitely saved, but we can have a hopeful trust based on many of the things that you've described.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们可以有一个充满希望的信心，但不是确定性。 We can have a hopeful confidence, but not a certainty.
但是再说一次，仅仅因为神可以在那里非常地介入，我们知道神给我们的常规方式。 But so once again, just because God can intervene extraordinarily there, we know the ordinary means that God gave us.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，我要说，呃，对于…… Uh, and I would say that, uh, for...
对于婴儿来说，说他们一定会上天堂，我会说：「好，这样说的理由是什么？」 如果我们说是因为他们没有犯错，好吧，现在我们只是在诉诸他们的人的功德。 that for infants to say, to say that they definitely will go to heaven, I would say, "Well, what is the reason for that?" If we say it's because they haven't committed wrongdoing, well, now we're just appealing to their human merits.
而没有人的功德能达到天堂。 And no human merit can attain heaven.
如果我们说是因为神不会像审判其他人那样审判他们，我们开始预——如 果我们确定地这样说，一个人必须小心地确定地推测神会或不会做什么。 If we say it's because God is not going to judge them like he judges others, we're starting to pre- If we say that with certainty, one must be careful to presume with certainty what God will or won't do.
呃，我只愿意基于神已经明确启示的来做这样的推测。 Uh, I'm only willing to do that based on what God has definitively revealed.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
如果我们得出结论，哦，好吧，神不会审判婴儿。 If we arrive at that, oh, well, God won't judge infants.
他不会审判他们。 He's not going to judge them.
他会拯救他们。 He's going to save them.
我会说，你怎么知道？ I would say, how do you know that?
如果我们只是基于神的怜悯和这个来进行逻辑论证—— And if we're just getting there by logical arguments based on God's mercy and based on this-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
走那种间接的路线，间接地说神一定会做X，这是非常非常危险的。 very, very dangerous to go that indirect route, indirect route to say God will definitely do X.
好的。 Okay.
只有当神说他一定会做X时，我才会说神一定会做X。 I'm only gonna say God definitely does X when God says he's gonna definitely do X.
是的。 Yeah.
那是，那是我的立场。 That's, that's where I would come from.
好，让我给你论点的第二面。 Well, let me give you the second side of the argument.
当然。 Sure.
我论点的第二部分。 The second part of my argument.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
我想有，有，有两件事，呃，我能够把它们联系起来。 I think that there's, there's, there's two things that, uh, that I've been able to put together.
第一，我看到神有这种一贯的愿望，想要在审判中越过 婴儿，你知道，就像在旧约中对未受割礼的民族那样。 That one, I see that God has this consistent desire to want to pass over in judgment on infants in, you know, on n- nations with uncircumcision in the Old Testament, let's say.
嗯，但同时也对于…… Um, but also though at the same time for...
当我看那些应得愤怒的事，我们谈到应得神的愤怒或应得—— when I look at the things that merit wrath, we talked about meriting God's wrath or meriting-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
呃，死亡，嗯，就像在罗马书中…… uh, death, um, like in Romans...
嗯，你谈到了罗马书第2章，还有罗马书1、2 、3章，当那里控告，呃，外邦人和犹太人时。 Well, you talked about Romans 2 a little bit and Romans 1, 2, and 3, when there's that indictment of, uh, of the Gentiles and the Jews.
对。 Right.
嗯，似乎所有应得愤怒的事，我不知道其中任何一个怎么适用于婴儿。 Um, it seems like everything that merits wrath, I don't know how any of that applies to infants.
我只是…… I just...
我认为这里有一种空虚和缺乏，如果…… I think that there's like an emptiness and a lack of what i- if...
当我读圣经时，我很难看到神说：「这是婴儿的问题。」 I just struggle seeing when I read scripture of God saying, "Here's the problem that infants have."
嗯。 Hmm.
就像在旧约的审判中，神说：「这是问题，我想让婴儿免于这个。」 Like in judgment in the Old Testament, God says, "Here's the problem, and I want infants to be spared from this."
对。 Right.
就像，你知道，比如约书亚和征服，嗯，这是一件事。 Like, you know, with Joshua and the conquest, for example, um, this is one thing.
哦，我不会—— Oh, I won't-
嗯—— Well-
我不会说得太超前。 I won't get too ahead of myself.
当然。 Sure.
因为，呃，有那个…… Because, uh, there's like the...
我不知道你是否曾处理过神对婴儿这样做的道德问题。 I don't know if you've ever dealt with like the morality of God doing that on infants.
我猜他们可以得救，留下空间让那个发生，但是—— I guess the can be saved and leaving the room for that works, but-
嗯，在征服的叙述中—— Well, in the, the conquest narrative-
是的，让我们现在谈谈这个。 Yeah, let's talk about that now.
嗯，征服的叙述确实谈到，给出了杀死老幼的命令。 Well, the conquest narratives do talk, give commands about slaying young and old.
是的。 Yeah.
但是，但这对神意味着什么如果—— But, but what does that mean about God if-
不留，不留一个有气息的。 Leave, leave none that breathes.
是的，但这就是我的意思。 Yeah, but that's what I mean.
如果…… If...
如果这些婴儿从未有机会，比如说——这对神意味着什么？ What does that mean about God if, if these babies that never stood a chance, let's say-
对。 Right.
…… ...
他们只是完全依靠希望神会这样做的怜悯？ they're just all at the, at completely at the mercy of hopefully God will do this?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
现在你是在说…… Now are you talk...
等等，你是在说—— Wait, are you talking about-
我—— I-
这对神意味着什么，关于在约书亚记中给出的命令还是关于他们死后的救恩？ What does it mean about God about the commands given in Joshua or about their salvation after death?
关于他们死后的救恩。 About their salvation after death.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
基于神所命令的杀戮。 Based off of the killing that God was commanding.
哦，好的。 Oh, okay.
所以这有点不同，但有些相关，因为神知道每天要么导致要么允许婴儿死亡—— So that's a little bit different, but it's somewhat related because God knows either causes or allows the deaths of infants every day-
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
在全世界，远比约书亚的征服要多得多。 all, all over the world, far more than just in the, the conquest of Joshua.
呃—— Uh-
我，我是说在规定中—— I, I mean like in the prescription of-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
征服的规定，比如杀死男人、女人、老人和年轻人。 of the conquest, like kill men, women, old and young.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
嗯，如果这些带着原罪出生的婴儿，感觉他们从未有过机会。 Um, if these babies that are born with original sin, it just feels like they never stood a chance.
嗯，但我…… Well, but I...
对，但我想然后人会把问题追溯得更远说，神欠任何人天堂吗？ Right, but I guess then one would take the question back further and say, does God owe anyone heaven?
是的。 Yeah.
事实上，中世纪的神学家们，他们，他们也在与这同样的问题搏斗。 And in fact, the medieval theologians, they, they wrestled with this same question.
他们想出来解决这个矛盾的概念就是地狱边缘的概念。 And the concept they came up to resolve the tension was the concept of limbo.
所以那个方式…… So the way that...
因为他们有，同样的——他们，他们有和你一样的担忧。 'Cause they had the, the same re- They, they had the same concern you have.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
就是，好吧，神会做什么？ Which is, okay, well, what does God do?
神不欠任何人天堂。 God doesn't owe heaven to anybody.
你不能，你不能像老板宝——像想象一个能说话的宝贝老板那样站在神面前。 You can't, you can't stand before God like the boss ba- Like imagine a boss baby who can talk.
是的。 Yeah.
像是：「我一生从未做错任何事。」「你必须让我进去。」神不必让任何人进天堂。 Be like, "I never did anything wrong my whole life." "You have to let me in." God doesn't have to let anybody into heaven.
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
即使是婴儿。 Even a baby.
他不喜欢…… He doesn't like...
说神必须让一个人进入他的领域，这不是这样运作的。 To say God has to let a human into his domain, that's not how it works.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
所以神不欠任何人天堂…… So God doesn't owe heaven to any...
神不欠他的任何受造物永恒的福乐。 God doesn't owe eternal bliss to any of his creatures.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
那纯粹是一个恩赐。 That is purely a gift.
他以任何方式、形状或形式都不欠这个。 He does not owe it in any way, shape or form.
所以中世纪的神学家们，嗯，奥古斯丁派真的在挣扎说：「 好的，是的，神不欠这些孩子天堂，但他们没有做任何…… And so the medieval theologians, well, Augustinian were really struggling with saying, "Okay, yeah, God doesn't owe heaven to these children, but they haven't done any...
他们没有犯大罪。」他们没有犯…… They haven't committed a mortal sin." They haven't committed a...
呃，他们可能带着原罪死去，但他们没有犯大罪。 Uh, they may have died in original sin, but they didn't commit a mortal sin.
他们没有犯实际的罪。 They didn't commit actual sin.
所以他们想出的解决方案是地狱边缘。 And so the resolution they came up with is limbo.
地狱边缘不是一个与天堂和地狱分开的地方。 Limbo is not a separate place from heaven and hell.
地狱边缘来自拉丁词limbus，意思是边缘或边界。 Limbo comes in the Latin word limbus, which means edge or border.
这个想法就是lim- limbus或地狱边缘 是地狱的外围，但它是一个完美自然幸福的地方。 And it's just the idea is that lim- limbus or limbo was the outer rim of hell, but it was a place of perfect natural happiness.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以它是一个…… So it's a...
这是一个你不受苦的地方，事实上你完全自然地幸福，但你没有经历真福直观。 It was a place where you, you didn't suffer, and in fact you were perfectly naturally happy, but you did not experience the beatific vision.
你没有与神同住的超自然幸福，你只有无尽的完美幸福。 You didn't have the supernatural happiness of dwelling with God, you just had unending perfect happiness.
多有趣。 How interesting.
所以这就是他们解决的方式。 And so that was how they resolved.
所以当人们说：「哦，他们相信婴儿下地狱，」 嗯，外围边界是你不受苦但也不经历神的地方。 So when people said, "Oh, they believe babies went to hell," well, the outer border where, where you don't suffer but you don't experience God.
我对地狱边缘唯一知道的就是《盗梦空间》，《盗梦空间》对地狱边缘的描绘。 The only thing I've known about limbo is Inception, Inception's rendering of limbo.
「如果你在这个梦中死去，你会最终在地狱边缘。」你会永远在那里。 "You'll end up in limbo if you die in this dream." You'll be there forever.
我，「该……」所以那…… I'm, "Fu-..." So that...
所以这就是地狱边缘背后的想法—— So that was the idea behind limbo-
有趣。 Interesting.
…… ...
就是…… was that...
是为了解决你在这里讨论的这个矛盾。 Was to resolve the very tension you're discussing here.
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
呃，但地狱边缘却没有被…… Uh, and limbo however has not been...
教会从未把它无误地定义为你必须相信的教义。 It was never infallibly defined by the church as a dogma you must believe.
嗯哼。 Uh-huh.
这是神学家们提出的解决这个问题的一个方案。 It was one that theologians propose as a solution to this problem.
如果你选择的话，你仍然可以相信它。 And it's one you can still believe if you choose to.
教会还没有解决会发生什么。 The church hasn't resolved what happens.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但我会说现在在教会训导权和其神学发展中更普遍的答案是 一个充满希望的信任，但对未受洗的婴儿不是确定的确信。 But I would say the more popular answer now among the magisterium and developing in its theology is a hopeful trust, but not a definite certainty for unbaptized infants.
好，不要偏离太远，呃，从，呃，从这部分—— Well, without straying too much, uh, from, uh, from this part of it-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
嗯，你会说什么…… um, what would you say...
嗯，地狱边缘的想法…… Um, what does the idea of limbo...
嗯，我该如何正确地表达这个？ Well, how do I word this rightly?
嗯，我不—— Well, I don't-
就像，它是不是像一个…… Like, is it like a...
是不是他们推理出来的，说：「我认为一个这样的地 方一定存在因为这种情况？」你明白我的意思吗？ Is it something that they reasoned towards in saying, "I think a s- a place like this must exist because of this situation?" You know what I mean?
是的。 Yeah.
它，它是他们试图调和神的公义与神圣启示中关于救恩的内容的一种方式。 It, it was a way of them trying to resolve God's justice with what's been given in divine revelation with salvation.
所以他们认为，就像，必然必须有…… So they think, like, by necessity there must be...
就像丹尼斯·普雷格说的那样，呃，「如果神是公义 的，那么一定有来世。」他并不真的觉得他有—— Like it's kind of like how Dennis Prager goes, uh, "If God is just, then there must be an afterlife." He doesn't really feel like he has-
对。 Right.
…… ...
在圣经中有任何来世的例子，但这是一个逻辑结论。 any example of the afterlife in scripture, but it's a logical conclusion.
而且，现在关于愤怒的论点，嗯，我不认为这能让你完全得出，好吧，如果…… And, and now the argument though about wrath, um, I don't think that gets you all the way to, well, if it...
我们不必给婴儿施洗因为他们一定会上天堂。 We don't have to baptize babies because they're definitely going to go to heaven.
充其量，这个论点只能表明他们不会下地狱。 At best, the argument would only show that they're not going to hell.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
因为你可能会说，好吧，神在他的怜悯中，这些死去的孩子， 呃，你可能会说比如他们要么去地狱边缘，在那里他们可能得 到完美的自然幸福，或者神可能simply不给他们永生。 Because you might say, okay, well God in his mercy, these children who have died, uh, you might say for example either they go to limbo, which is they might get perfect natural happiness, or God may simply not give them eternal life.
他们只有一次生命。 They've only had one life.
他们不会受苦。 They won't suffer.
这是湮灭论的立场。 That's the annihilationist position.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以有人可能会说：「好吧，我相信这些婴儿，你知道，他们 从未犯罪，所以他们不会下地狱，但神不会使他们复活。」 So someone could say, "Well, I believe these babies, you know, they never committed a sin, so they're not gonna go to hell, but God is not going to resurrect them."
是的。 Yeah.
在最后。 At the end.
他们只是不再存在。 They just cease to exist.
他们，他们只会不再存在。 They, they will just cease to exist.
所以他们不会为他们所做的任何事受苦。 So they will not suffer for anything they've done.
然而，他们不会上天堂因为他们没有什么配得天堂。 However, they won't go to heaven because there's nothing about them that merits heaven.
呃，所以我们不能那样说。 Uh, so we can't say that.
所以我会说关于神的公义和愤怒降临的地方的论点，它 不能让你得出结论，哦，好吧，婴儿一定会上天堂。 So I would say that the argument about God's justice and where wrath is inflicted, it does not get you to the conclusion, oh, well, babies will definitely go to heaven.
相反，我认为唯一安全的说法是，好吧，神说过洗礼拯救。 Rather, I think the only safe bet for that is to say, well, God has said baptism saves.
它拯救我们脱离原罪。 It saves us from original sin.
这是为每个人准备的。 It is meant for everyone.
就像在早期教会，比如说，没有…… Like in the early church, for example, there's no...
早期教会关于婴儿洗礼的唯一争论—— The only debate over infant baptism in the early church-...
是，有些人说：「嗯，你应该在婴儿出生八天后给他们施洗——」 was, there were some people who said, "Well, you should baptize infants eight days after they're born-"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
「…… "...
因为洗礼取代了割礼，而割礼是在八天后进行的。」 because baptism replaces circumcision, and circumcision happened eight days later."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
当然那是，那只是为了婴儿的健康原因。 Of course that was, that was just for health reasons, for babies.
对。 Right.
那个，血液凝固的事情。 The, the blood clotting thing.
确实。 Exactly.
是的。 Yeah.
而且，而且所以，呃，早期基督徒说：「不，不，不。 And, and so what, uh, the early Christians said was, "No, no, no.
呃，那是，它取代了它。」但因为古代世界婴儿死亡率如 此之高，他们认为不，应该在婴儿一出生就给他们施洗。 Uh, that was, it replaces it." But because infant mortality rates were so high in the ancient world, they believed no, baptize babies as soon as they are born.
早期教会倾向于发生的唯一其他滥用是因为补赎，就像当你为罪道歉，你知道， 为罪忧伤，你想要弥补你所做的，嗯，早期教会的罪的补赎有时可能很严厉。 The only other abuse that tended to happen in the early church was because penances, like when you apologize for, you know, sorrowful for sin, you want to make up for what you've done, um, penances for sin in the early church sometimes could be severe.
所以有些人试图钻系统的空子—— So some people tried to game the system-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
就是等到快死的时候才受洗。 by just waiting to be baptized right before they die.
是的。 Yeah.
这违背了神恩典的整个精神和给予我们的—— And that goes against the entire spirit of God's grace and what's being given to us- ...
在圣事中。 in the sacraments.
是的。 Yeah.
但通常当涉及到婴儿时，呃，这里的想法是没有争——争论只是不要等八天。 But typically when it came to infants, uh, the idea here was no D- Debate was just don't wait eight days.
尽快给他们施洗。 Baptize them as soon as you can.
我是说，我们的孩子，我们的第三个孩子，意外地在家里出生。 I mean, our child, our third child, was born unintentionally at home.
这是在新冠疫情期间。 So this was during COVID.
哦天啊。 Oh man.
我们当时—— And we were-
多么艰难的时期生孩子啊。 What a rough time to have a kid.
是的。 Yes.
这是在新冠疫情期间，2020年9月。 This was during COVID, September 2020.
我们在等待，呃，所以我们在家里等待。 And we were waiting, uh, so we were waiting at home.
我就像，「哦，」我们真的不想去医院。 I was just like, "Oh," we really didn't want to go into the hospital.
是的。 Yeah.
呃，我们计划去，但我们就像，「哦，我不知道。」 所以我们，我们不想在那里待的比必要的时间更长。 Uh, we were planning to go, but we were just like, "Oh, I don't know." And so we, we didn't want to be there as longer than we had to.
然后分娩就突然来了。 And then the labor just caught up with us.
然——然后突然我们在卧室里，孩子就要出生了。 A- And suddenly we're in our bedroom and here comes the baby.
我们打着911电话，我—— And we have 911 on the phone and I-
婴儿改变了节奏。 Baby shifted gears.
他，他直接出来了。 He, he comes right out.
就像真的40—— It was like literally 40-
哇。 Whoa.
就像40秒的分娩。 It was like 40 seconds of labor.
你接生了你的孩子？ You delivered your child?
我，我在他的出生证明上。 I, I am on his birth certificate.
在接生人那里写的是我的名字。 Says under who delivered it is my name.
哇。 Whoa.
所以我，就是我，接住了他，如果我担心了几秒钟他没有任何动静。 So I, it was just me, caught him, and if I was worried for like a few seconds he didn't do anything.
是的。 Yeah.
然后他清醒了，开始哭了，然后我们把他递过去。 And then he's alert and he starts crying and then we pass him off.
然后我在想：「好的，我要剪脐带。」所以我就像：「好的，我该怎么……」我完全 慌乱了，就像我，我开始解开，我要用我的鞋带来绑，我要拿一把牛排刀倒上酒精。 And then I was thinking, "Okay, I want to cut the umbilical cord." So I'm like, "Okay, what do I..." And I'm all like frazzled and like I'm, I was starting to undo like, I'll use my shoelace to tie and I'll get a steak knife and pour alcohol on it.
是的。 Yeah.
不会吧。 No way.
但是，但是救护人员就在那时出现了，就在我要 那样做的时候，他们给了我工具来，来剪脐带。 And, but then the, the paramedics showed up right at that moment when I was about to do that, and they gave me the stuff to, to cut the cord.
哇。 Wow.
嗯，你知道那件事真正有趣的是什么吗？ Um, you know what's really funny about that?
什么？ What?
关于我们的美国医疗系统。 About our American healthcare system.
然后我们上了救护车，呃，那是——那是一次非常昂贵的去医院的救护车之旅。 Then we got in the ambulance, uh, and they j- it w- so it was a very expensive ambulance ride to the hospital.
是的。 Yeah.
然后他们向我们收取了分娩和接生的费用。 And then they charged us for labor and delivery of the baby.
不会吧。 No way.
我们打电话给医院，我说：「为什么你们要向我们收取分娩和接生的费用？ And we called the hospital and I said, "Why are you charging us for labor and delivery?
我们在家里接生的。」他们说：「哦，让——我们重新计算。」他们重新计算 了，给了我们同样的账单，但他们收取了在救护车上分娩和接生胎盘的费用。 We delivered the baby at home." And they said, "Oh, let- we'll rerun that." They reran it, they gave us the same bill, but they charged us for labor and delivery of the placenta in the ambulance.
哇。 Wow.
是的。 Yeah.
那太惊人了。 That's amazing.
他们总能找到收费的方法。 They always find a way to get you.
但是，我做好了准备。 But what, I was prepared.
如果他有危险，如果看起来他发青或有什么危险，我就要当场给他施洗。 If he was in danger, if it looked like he was blue or something was in danger, I was gonna baptize him right then and there.
哇。 Wow.
就在那时那地进行紧急洗礼。 Right then and there as an emergency baptism.
事实上，教会教导因为神想要每个人都受洗，通常应该由祭司或执事来做。 In fact, the church teaches because God wants everyone to be baptized, normally it should be a priest or a deacon.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但它说任何人都可以做。 But it says anybody can do it.
甚至一个，甚至一个无神论者。 Even an, even an atheist.
是的。 Yeah.
所以你有两个无神论者—— So you have two atheists-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
一个说：「我想成为基督徒，」然后他心脏病发作，说：「我一直 想受洗，」他的无神论朋友可以说：「好的，我，我要给你施洗。 and one's like, "I want to be Christian," and he has a heart attack, like, "I always wanted to be baptized," his atheist friend can say, "Okay, I'm, I'm gonna baptize you.
我要做基督徒试图用这个做的事。」他知道是奉父、子、圣灵的名， 他说对了话，他只是说：「我想做基督徒，教会用这个做的事。」 I'm gonna do what Christians try to do with this." And he knows it's in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, and he does the right words, and he just says, "I want to do what Christians, the church does with this."
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我们认为那，那是有效的。 We treat that, that would be valid.
好的。 Okay.
因为神想要每——每个人。 Because God wants e- everybody.
所以我想这就是我看待婴儿问题的方式，是的，他们在道德上不负责因为他们没有犯 原罪，因为他们没有犯实际的罪，但神不欠天——神只欠那些他应许天堂的人天堂。 So I think that's where I would look at it when it comes to infants that, yes, they're not morally accountable because they don't commit original sin, because they don't commit actual sin, but God doesn't owe hea- The, God only owes heaven to those he has promised heaven to.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
他只欠天堂，不是因为任何高于他的法律，而是因为 他做出的应许，他，他不能，他用这些约束自己。 He only owes heaven, not by any law above him, but by the promises he makes that he, he can't, he binds himself by.
他只欠那些他应许天堂的人天堂。 He only owes heaven to the people he's promised heaven to.
他应许天堂给那些接受他的成圣恩典，接受他的生命，并且不离弃他的人。 And he's promised heaven to those who receive his sanctifying grace, receive his life, and don't forsake him.
所以他，他告诉我们那来自，他给我们的生命，是通过洗礼来到我们这里的。 And so he, and he's told us that comes, that life he gives us, it comes to us through baptism.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以这很有趣。 So it's interesting.
所以我们确实同意我们，我们，它拯救我们，我们通过洗礼接受神的生命。 So we do agree on that we, we, it saves us, we receive God's life through baptism.
但我会说天堂的应许只是给那些从他那里接受了那生命的人。 But I would say that the promise of heaven is only for those who have received that life from him.
虽然神能非常地拯救那些没有以那种方式接受他恩典的人，我们不能擅自假定那个。 While God can extraordinarily save people who didn't receive his grace in that way, we must not presume upon that.
好的。 Okay.
是的，因为基本上我的想法是如果神的愤怒是这列正在行驶的火车， 当神决定耶稣再来，愤怒临到那些不认识神，不顺服福音的人—— Yeah, 'cause basically my idea is if God's wrath is this train that is on its way, and when God has decided for Jesus to come again and wrath comes to those who did not know God, did not obey the gospel-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
呃，就像帖撒罗尼迦后书说的，呃，那时，那时它基本上碾过每个人。 uh, like Second Thessalonians says, uh, that's when it, that's when it runs everybody over basically.
呃，这是一个听起来有点傻的比喻，但是—— Uh, it's a kind of a silly sounding illustration, but-
对。 Right.
…… ...
我看自己的方式，我过去在轨道上，那是我想要生活的 地方，然后我接受了神的恩典，我就不再在那里了。 the way I see like myself, I used to be on the tracks, that's where I wanted to live life, and then I received God's grace and I was no longer there.
嗯，但我只是把婴儿看作，或婴儿作为—— Um, but I just see babies as, or infants as-
对。 Right.
…… ...
就像他们从未在轨道上，因为上轨道—— like they were never on the tracks, because getting on the tracks-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你把自己放在那里。 you place yourself there.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以，但是，我，我看到我们可能会说神可以非常地拯救他们 或者，你知道，也许他们不在轨道上，但他们也不会在天堂。 And so, but, I, I see how we could have maybe say that like God could extraordinarily save them or, you know, maybe they're not on the tracks, but they're also not gonna be in heaven.
他们不会受到愤怒—— They won't receive wrath-
一旦火车过去了。 Once the train is gone.
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
但他们不会接受真福，完美的超自然幸福。 but they won't receive beatification, perfect supernatural happiness.
这个论点不能导致他们肯定会接受那个。 The argument doesn't lead that they will assuredly receive that.
只有与洗礼相关的应许会，会是，嗯，会与那个相连。 Only the promises associated to baptism would, would be, um, would be connected to that.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
我想神学家们，至少古典神学家们，会说，呃，我知道本笃十六世讨 论过这个，像神的愤怒这样的词，我们必须小心不要把神人格化。 I think also theologians, at least classical theologians, would say, uh, I know Pope Benedict XVI discusses this, that phrases like God's wrath, we have to be careful not to anthropomorphize God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以我们会说，比如说，古典传统认为神就是完 美的存在本身，所以神不会对我们做出反应。 So we would say, for example, the classical tradition is that God is just perfect being itself, so God doesn't react to us.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
神是全知的，全能的，无所不在的。 God is all knowing, all powerful, all present.
他的全部生命都在一个完美的永恒时刻中。 All of his life is in one perfect timeless moment.
这是关于神的时间性的古典观点。 That's the classical view of God's temporality.
所以神不会对我们做出反应，因为，你知道，他不是—— And so God doesn't react to us because, you know, he's not-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你知道，他，他是全知的和完美的。 you know, he's, he's omniscient and perfect.
本笃谈到神的愤怒的描述不是描述神对我们做什么，而 是我们做什么，而是我们对我们与神的关系做什么。 And Benedict talked about how descriptions of God's wrath are a way not of describing what God does to us, but what we do, but what we do to our relationship with God.
当我们远离神时，本质上，那就是他的愤怒。 That when we move away from God, that is essentially, that's his wrath.
所以当我们看到圣经中很多关于神的描述时，我们必须小心。 So when we see a lot of descriptions of God in the Bible, we have to be careful.
很容易把它们人格化。 It's very easy to anthropomorphize them.
就是说，你知道，哦，神有一个实际的…… That to say, you know, oh, well does God have a actual...
父神有字面意义上的右手和背面吗？ Does the Father have a literal right hand and a backside?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
而且，呃，你知道，他真的为做这些事后悔吗？ And, uh, you know, did he actually repent of doing these things?
就像他后悔造了人类吗？ Like was he sorry he made human beings?
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
那听起来不太像全知。 Like that doesn't sound very omniscient.
是的。 Yeah.
所以我们会说像神的愤怒这样的其他表达更多地指的是离弃神的人会发生什么。 So we would say that other expressions like the wrath of God refer more to what happens to people who forsake God.
事实上，我真的喜欢的一个东方的，神学观点是来世的想法，嗯…… In fact, an Eastern view of, of theology that I really like is the idea that in the afterlife, um...
这在东正教或东方公教会中比在西方更普遍，但这个想法是在 来世，我们都经历神，但那些与神友好的人，这是一个很…… And this is more amongst like Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholics than in the West, but it's the idea that in the afterlife, we all experience God, but those who are in God's friendship, this is a very...
这是可能的最好感觉。 It's the best feeling possible.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这是纯粹的福乐。 It's pure bliss.
但对那些与神分离而死的人，那些不与神友好的人 ，那些没有神的成圣恩典的人，在周围是痛苦的。 But for those who die apart from God, who are not in friendship with God, who do not have God's sanctifying grace, it is misery to be around.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以就像，比如说，如果，嗯，你的手，如果我的手是热的 ，你的手是温的，我握着它们，你的手在我手中感觉很好。 So it's like, for example, if, um, your hand, if my hands are hot and your hands are lukewarm and I hold them, your hands feel good in my hands.
但如果你的手冰冷，我的手很热，我握着它们，感觉很痛苦。 But if your hands are ice cold and my hands are hot and I hold them, it feels miserable.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
即使我是一样的。 Even though I'm the same.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
你没有准备好那样接受它。 You are not disposed to receive it in that way.
所以我发现这是一个看待来世和信徒会发生什么的有趣方式。 So I find that an interesting way to look at the afterlife and what happens to believers.
这几乎是…… It's almost...
嗯，这很有趣，它真的帮助解决了很多比如地狱是不公正的这种想法。 Well it's interesting, it helps really solve a lot of like the idea of hell is unjust.
是的。 Yeah.
因为我只会说不，每个人死后都接受神。 'Cause I would just say no, everybody after death receives God.
这一点都不不公正。 It's not unjust at all.
但那些信靠神的人，他们享受那种接受因为他们是神的朋友。 But those who have trusted in God, they enjoy that reception 'cause they're friends with God.
但对其他人来说，就像神不需要做任何外在的事来表现愤怒。 But then for other people, like God doesn't have to do anything extrinsic to be wrathful.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
如果你就是不是神的朋友，神的单纯存在就是—— If you are just not God's friend, God's mere presence is-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
是一种痛苦的，是一种痛苦的事情。 is an agonizing, is an agonizing thing.
这有点像，嗯…… It's kind of like, um......
是什么来着？ what was it?
我想是布莱恩·里根。 I think it was Brian Regan.
他做了一个关于在派对上爱比高的人的段子。 He does a bit about people who one-up at parties.
就像，你知道，比如：「我拔了一颗智齿。 It's like, you know, like, "I had a wisdom tooth removed.
我不得不拔了四颗智齿——」「…… I had to have four wisdom teeth removed-" "...
没有手术。」 without surgery."
是的。 Yeah.
你知道。 You know.
或者，嗯，呃，某人，他说：「我希望我能成为宇航员。」他们说：「哦，你们 ，你知道，你们做过那个？」「我在月球上走过。」「试试超过那个吧。」就像 ，有些人，就像如果你去派对，那里有一个很棒的人，会有两种类型的人。 Or, um, uh, someone, he's like, "I wish I could just be an astronaut." They say, "Oh, you guys, you know, you did that?" "I walked on the moon." "Try to one-up that." Like, there are some people, like if you ever go to a party and there is a really awesome person there, there's two types of people.
有些人喜欢和那个很棒的人在一起，他们感到感激，就像：「这太酷了——」 There's people who love being with the awesome person and they feel grateful, like, "This is so cool-"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
「…… "...
和这个人在一起。」然后还有另一种人不能忍受—— with this guy." And then there's another type of person who can't stand-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
他们得到所有的关注而自己没有。 that they're getting all that attention and they aren't.
这让他们发疯。 And it just drives them crazy.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以，呃，我想这是，呃，这是一个很好的比喻，对于那些与神的友谊分 离而死的人，呃，即使，即使他们还没有达到负责任的年龄，他们仍然只 有这些自然的人性气质，他们不能真正以那种超自然的福乐方式接受神。 So, uh, I think there's, uh, that's a good analogy that for people who die apart from God's friendship, uh, even, even if they are before they reach the age of accountability, they still have just these natural human temperaments that they're not able to really receive God in that supernatural blissful way.
总是像：「嗯，那我呢？」 It's always like, "Well, what about me?"
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
如果，我是说，如果有谁是「那我呢？」的话，那就是婴儿。 If, I mean, if anybody is, "What about me?" it's an infant.
是的。 Yeah.
对吧？ Right?
但我确实相信从神学的角度来看，我们可以有一个充满希望的信心。 But I do believe that from a theological perspective, we can have a hopeful confidence.
但仅仅因为我们对事情有充满希望的信心，我们，我们不应该擅自假定。 But just because we have hopeful confidence about things, we, we ought not be presumptive.
好的。 Okay.
所以是的。 So yeah.
我想问你，所以你，总的来说，你对我关于神的观点的批评，我 看到他想在审判中越过他们的模式，我在新约中看到的描述为应 受愤怒的事，似——似乎专门指那些做出选择的人而不是婴儿。 I was gonna ask you then, so you're into, in summary, your criticism of like my point about God, I see patterns of him wanting to pass over them in judgment, and the things that I see described as deserving of wrath in the New Testament, it see- seems to exclusively refer to people who make choices instead of infants.
你的批评基本上是说，好的，我，我，我看到一个模式，确实，但它不够可靠，不够确定？ Is your critique basically that like, okay, I, I, I see a pattern, sure, but it's not solid enough, it's not sure enough?
我们从中所能得到的只是神暂缓惩罚的先例—— All, all we could get from that is that there is a precedent of God withholding punishment-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
基于无知对某些人。 from certain people based on ignorance.
但这不能让你走完剩下的路。 But it doesn't get you the rest of the way.
不是神赐予救恩—— Not God rewarding salvation-
有趣。 Interesting.
…… ...
因为无知。 because of ignorance.
是的。 Yeah.
这就是我看到一些问题的地方，因为你给我举的一些旧约中的例子 只是：「好吧，这些人做错了事，所以我会给他们暂时的惩罚。」 That's where I would see some of the problem there 'cause some of the things you give me an example of in the, in the Old Testament would just be, "Well, these people committed wrongdoing so I will give them a temporal punishment."
是的。 Yeah.
或者，「我会在今生惩罚他们。 Or, "I will g- punish them in this life.
他们会遭受死亡。 They will suffer death.
但这些人没有做错事，所以我不会惩罚他们。」这很公平。 But these people did not do wrongdoing and so I will not punish them." That's fair enough.
但看看地狱，我想有时把它看作不一定是惩罚本身，虽然它是，而是看作后果会有帮助。 But looking then at, at hell, I think sometimes it can be helpful to view it not necessarily as punishment per se, though it is, but to see it as consequence.
这是与神分离的后果。 It's a consequence of being apart from God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以，对不同的人来说都有这种可能，这就是为什么人们为此挣扎。 And so, there is a possibility for that for, for different people and that's why people struggled with that.
就是，呃，一个，如果你与神分离而死，你不能承受永生。 That, uh, one, if you die apart from God, you cannot inherit eternal life.
现在，我们都有永生，对吧？ Now, we all have eternal life, right?
就像在地狱里的人有永生。 Like people in hell have eternal life.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但这不是福乐的。 But it's not blissful.
所以你不能承受与神同在的永生，但也许那里，也许还有别的东西。 So you can't inherit eternal life with God but maybe there, maybe there's something else.
这就是地狱边缘会出现的地方。 That's where limbo w- would come in.
所以我认为你提出的论点，我认为它，它是一个支持包容性观点的好论点。 So I think the argument you're making, I think it, it is a good argument for incl- like the inclusiveness view.
就是神不会诅咒那些不是因为自己的错的人的想法。 The idea that God is not going to damn people who, through no fault of their own.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
然而，当我们应用…… However, when we apply...
所以就像如果我们把它应用到，比如说我们有一群岛民，对吧？ So like if we apply that, for example, to let's say we had a group of islanders, right?
就是，嗯，你知道，像北森蒂内尔，北森蒂内尔人。 Who, um, you know, like the North Sentinel, North Sentinelese.
当然。 Of course.
是的。 Yeah.
所以那些人，就像：「你想去那里，他们会用箭射你的背。」 So the guys, it's like, "You wanna go there, they're gonna get arrows in your back."
是的。 Yeah.
这就像是少数几个失落的部落之一—— And this is like one of the few lost tribes-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
在印度海岸边。 off the coast of India.
呃，你可能会说：「嗯，他们从未认识基督或圣经。 Uh, you might say, "Well, they've never known Christ or the Bible.
呃，神不会把他的愤怒倾倒在他们身上因为他们，他们从未认识基督。」所以有 人可能会说：「好吧，如果这是论点，也许我们根本不应该向他们作见证。」 Uh, God's not going to pour his wrath out on them because they, they've never known Christ." So one could make the argument, "Well, if that's the argument, maybe we shouldn't witness to them at all."
是的。 Yeah.
为什么，为什么我们要给他们机会？ Why, why would we give them a chance?
你让每个人的情况都变得更糟。 You're making it worse for everyone.
我们让他们的情况变得更糟。 We're making it worse for them.
是的。 Yeah.
所以你可能会说：「哦，好吧，那么，按照那个逻辑，呃，是的，我们 ，我们让他们的情况变得更糟。」我们会说：「嗯，不，那只是如果它 是保证的话。」所以我们会说：「嗯，这不是他们会得救的保证。 So you might say, "Oh, well then, then by that logic, uh, yeah, we're, we're making it worse for them." We would say, "Well, no, that's only if it's a guarantee." So we'd say, "Well, it's not a guarantee they'll be saved.
我们只是说神会怜悯他们，他会相应地审判他们。 We're just saying that God will have mercy on them and he'll judge them accordingly.
但让他们的得救可能性提高到概率或确定性肯定会很好。」 But it would sure be great for them to raise their possibility of salvation to a probability or, or a certainty."
是的。 Yeah.
所以我会说如果你的论点会，会，允许包容主义，比如对这些原住民和婴儿。 And so I would say then if your argument would, would, allows for inclusivism, for example, for these natives and also for infants.
神不会对那些从未有机会接受福音的婴儿残酷。 God's not going to be cruel to infants who never had a chance to receive the gospel.
但在这两种情况下，它只允许可能性。 But in both cases, it only allows for possibility.
我会说神已经给了我们方法把它提高到概率和确定性。 And I would say that God has given us the means to raise that to probability and certainty.
所以这就是我看到的区别。 So that's where I would see a difference.
所以我必须，我必须进入下一步，试图为他们证明天堂。 So I'd have to, I'd have to go to the next step and try to prove heaven for them.
这很有趣。 That's interesting.
为森蒂内尔人？ For the Sentinelese?
不，不。 No, no.
为，为婴儿。 For, for infants.
是的。 Yeah.
哦，为…… Oh, for...
是的。 Yeah.
而且，而且这就是我要说的，但即使在那里关于不在罪中，我是说，你 有大卫在诗篇中说，你知道，「我是，我是在罪孽中生的，」比如说。 And, and that's where I would say, but even there about not being in sin, I mean, you have David in the Psalms saying, you know, "I was, I was conceived in iniquity," for example.
啊。 Ah.
我对那个有困扰。 I struggle with that one.
看起来那个不是很字面的。 It seems like that one's not very literal.
我不知道。 I don't know.
就像周围的经文，就像他说—— Like the verses around it, like he says-
它们，当它们对我们是个问题时它们从来不是字面的。 They're, they're never literal when they're a problem for us.
嗯，那，那些他说的其他的，比如：「洗净我。」之类的。 Well, the, the other ones where he says, like, "Wash me." And stuff like that.
是的。 Yeah.
对。 Right.
他不是在请求神字面上洗净他。 He's not asking God to literally wash him.
你知道吗？ You know?
呃，看起来在一个，在一个高——高度情绪化的状态下他—— Uh, it seems like in a, in a height- heightened emotional state he's-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这有点像人们说：「我一直都是个，像个糟糕的人。」或类似的话。 It's kind of like people say like, "I've always been a, like a mess up." Or something like that.
就像，不一定。 Like, not necessarily.
你知道，不是这个意思。 You know, not in this sense.
是的。 Yeah.
我不知道。 I don't know.
呃…… Uh...
我想他会否认他是在圣洁中生的。 I think he would deny though that he was conceived in holiness.
是的。 Yeah.
这是肯定的。 That's for sure.
我想问题是如果婴儿是在圣洁中生的，而且我们，圣经 描述他们在达到负责任的年龄之前是独特地圣洁的—— And I think the problem is that if infants were conceived in holiness, and we, and the Bible described them as uniquely holy until they reach the age of accountability-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
你也许能为你的立场找到一个论点。 you could maybe get an argument for your position.
但在圣经中，我想你应该考虑到这一点，根本没有提到负责任的年龄。 But in scripture, I think you ought to conceive this, there isn't mention of the age of accountability at all.
没有。 No.
我想从申命记来的论点—— And I think the, the argument from Deuteronomy-
我想那使它不同。 I think that makes it different.
…… ...
是薄弱的。 is weak.
就像他们那时候的20岁的事有点薄弱。 Like the 20-year-old thing that they did back then is kind of weak.
那个想法，哦…… The idea, oh...
那会很滑稽因为我们大多数人认为是在七岁左右。 That would be hilarious 'cause most of us think of it around the age of seven.
是的。 Yeah.
所以如果你说：「嗯，我相信负责任的年龄就是你20岁的时候。」那会很有趣。 So that'd be funny if you said, "Well, I believe in the age of accountability just once you're 20."
是的。 Yeah.
因为在那之前—— Because before that-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
你，你基本上是个婴儿。 you're, you're basically an infant.
是的。 Yeah.
不。 No.
我，我确实对诗篇51的想法有困扰。 I, I do struggle with the s- the Psalm 51 idea.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
它看起来就像从非字面的，非字面的，然后人们说第五节 是字面的，然后他们又回到非字面的，再次非字面的。 It just seems like it goes like from like non-literal, non-literal, and then people say verse five is literal, then they go back to non-literal, non-literal again.
嗯，我会说他被生在字面上的污秽中这一点甚至不一定是字面的—— Well, I would say it's not even necessarily literal that he's conceived like in literal filth-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
或在子宫中类似的东西，而是在某种道德的不公中。 or something like that in the womb, but rather in some kind of a moral inequity.
我们能不能都同意，它是很情绪化的，所有的？ Can we both agree that, that it's very emotional, all of it?
就像诗篇是的。 Like the Psalms are.
哦，所有的诗篇都是。 Oh, all the Psalms are.
是的。 Yeah.
而且—— And-
这就是为什么我不太依赖诗篇作为证明经文。 And that's why I don't rely on the Psalms as much as proof texts.
是的。 Yeah.
但我要说，而且那——那就是为什么对我来说，我，我不太喜欢证明经文神学—— But I would say, and th- and that's why for me, I, I'm not big on proof text theology-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
总的来说。 in general.
我，我相信教会有一个教导职分，让我们能把所有神圣启 示的数据组合成一个连贯的整体，并为发展提供方法。 I, I believe the church has a teaching office that allows us to assemble all the data of divine revelations into a coherent whole and provide means for, for development.
就像这些关于未受洗婴儿的问题，我想大多数人会说，呃，从 圣经中肯定不清楚那些在相信之前死去的婴儿会自动上天堂。 Like these questions about unbaptized infants, I think most people would say, uh, that it is certainly not clear from scripture that infants who, who die before belief automatically go to heaven.
是的。 Yeah.
大多数人永远不会说：「哦，我有圣经证明他们会上 天堂。」他们大多数人提出一个，一个逻辑论点。 Most people would never say, "Oh, I have a biblical proof they go to heaven." Most of them make a, a logical argument.
我想对我来说，是的，只是，呃，在逻辑上我还没有想到—— I guess for me, yeah, it's just, uh, that logically I haven't come up with-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
地狱边缘，我假设了天堂…… limbo and I've assumed heaven...
我想多想想地狱边缘的想法。 I wanna think about that idea of limbo a little bit more.
那很有趣。 That's interesting.
而且它，它仍然是，它不是教会…… And it's, it is still, it's not one that the church...
它不像中世纪那样是受欢迎的立场。 It's not as f- the favored position as it was saying like the Middle Ages.
是的。 Yeah.
但这就是为什么，所以公教神学理解有教义。 But that's why, so Catholic theology understands that there's dogmas.
神已——教会无误地教导神神圣地启示的事情。 Things that God ha- the church infallibly teaches God divinely revealed this.
是的。 Yeah.
比如基督是神，举个例子。 Like that Christ is God, for example.
基督真实地临在于圣餐中。 Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.
但还有其他事情可能是未解答的问题。 But there are other things where maybe it's an unanswered question.
比如预定论到底是如何运作的？ Like how exactly does predestination work?
这是教会留作开放问题的一个。 That's one where the church leaves as an open question.
是的。 Yeah.
它只是说它不像开放神论者说的那样运作，说神对未来一无所知。 It just says it doesn't work the way open theists say, where God is ignorant to the future.
它也不像一些加尔文派会说的那样运作，带着一个非常严格的双重 预定论观点，或者说神直接意愿某些人下地狱，诸如此类的事。 And it doesn't work the way some Calvinists would say, with a very strict view of double predestination or that God directly wills for certain people to go to hell, things like that.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，但在这之间，教会会说：「嗯，神学家们对如 何阐述有些分歧……」并允许一个开放的问题。 Uh, but between that, the church will say, "Well, theologians kind of disagree about how to articulate..." And allows an open question.
类似于未受洗婴儿的救恩问题。 Similar that with salvation of unbaptized infants.
教会没有一个确定的答案，所以它允许神学家们发展。 The church doesn't have a definitive answer, so it allows theologians to develop.
所以这就是为什么我作为一个公教徒发现教会的训导权，教 会的教导职分如此有帮助，有人会说：「哦，它压制你。 So that's why I find as a Catholic so helpful that a lot of times the Magisterium, the teaching office of the church, somebody will say, "Oh, well it stifles you.
你不能读圣经。 You can't read the Bible.
你不能解释。」完全不是这样。 You can't interpret." Not at all.
圣经神学家，系统的公教神学家总是在探索神学。 Biblical theologians, systematic Catholic theologians are always exploring theology.
但教会给我们有帮助的护栏。 But the church gives us helpful guardrails.
说：「是的，探索这个。 Say, "Yeah, explore this.
不，不要去这里。 Nope, don't go over here.
那是异端。」「不。 That's heresy." "Nope.
不要去这里。 Don't go over here.
那是异端。」但在这里，但是，但在这些护栏内，让我们探索神启示的更多内容。 That's heresy." But in this, but, but within these guardrails, let's explore what God has revealed more.
那很有趣。 That's interesting.
所以…… So...
好的。 Okay.
总结一下，我有一些快速的连发问题—— To wrap up, I got some quick rapid fire questions-
好的，让我们开始吧。 Yes, let's do it.
…… ...
来自Patreon上的一些支持者—— from some of the supporters on Patreon-
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
…… ...
诸如此类的。 and stuff like that.
嗯，呃，再说一次，你的答案不需要…… Um, uh, again, your answers don't have...
呃，你想说多长就说多长，但是—— Uh, make them as long as you want to, but-...
只要以连发的方式思考就行。 just think about it in rapid fire terms.
是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah.
第一个，呃，呃，以西结书18:20，「儿子必不担当父亲的罪孽。」这怎么…… Number one, uh, uh, Ezekiel 18:20, "The son will not bear the guilt of the father." How does...
呃，这是你听到人们提到的经文吗，典型的回答是什么？ Uh, is that a verse that you hear brought up, and what would be the typical answer?
呃，这是，像是断章取义吗？ Uh, is that, like out of context?
呃—— Uh-
哦，好吧，我要说的是那是，那是正确的。 Oh, well, what I would say there is that that is, that is correct.
呃，实际上，哦，有，有一个，在耶利米书中有一个平行的经文，谈到人们，你 知道，试图责备，呃，试图惩罚孩子而不是，你知道，因为他们父亲所做的。 Uh, and actually, oh, there is, there's a, there's a parallel verse in, in Jeremiah that talks about people who, you know, try to blame, uh, try to punish children instead of, you know, for what their fathers have done.
而且，而且他们不应该这样做，因为每个，每个人都应该为自己的罪受惩罚。 And, and they ought not do this, as each, each one should be punished for his own sin.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，它处理的是关于，关于那个——关于葡萄的谚语和关于…… Uh, it deals with the proverb about the, about the sou- something about the grapes and about...
我以后要查一下那个。 I'll have to look that up later.
但它在我的书《难解的话》中。 But it's in my book, Hard Sayings.
好的。 Okay.
我要说的是它——很清楚，呃，神不…… What I would say is that i- it's very clear that, uh, God does not...
神不会因为我祖父犯的罪惩罚我。 God will not punish me for the sins my grandfather has committed.
是的。 Yeah.
你知道，这不是…… You know, it's not...
我在道德上不为他，他可能做过的事负责。 I'm not morally at fault for what he, he may have done.
然而，关于原罪，所以我们不会因为我们祖先的罪 受惩罚，但我们可能承受我们祖先的罪的后果。 However, in relation to original sin, so we're not punished for the sins of our ancestors, but we may suffer the consequences of the sins of our ancestors.
是的，当然。 Yeah, for sure.
而且那…… And that...
我认为那很清楚—— I think that's very clear-
好的。 Okay.
…… ...
在圣经中。 in Scripture.
呃，这是来自布雷登。 Uh, this is from Brayden.
「你认为新教徒对公教徒最大的误解是什么？」 "What do you think is the biggest misunderstanding Protestants have about Catholics?"
新教徒对公教徒最大的误解？ The ma- biggest misunderstanding Protestants have about Catholics?
是的。 Yeah.
我会说是这个想法…… I would say it's the idea...
两件事。 Two things.
一个是我们敬拜马利亚。 One would be that we worship Mary.
呃，我们不把马利亚当作女神敬拜。 Uh, we do not worship Mary as a goddess.
呃，取决于你如何定义敬拜。 Uh, depends how you define worship.
我们会说敬拜意味着献祭—— We would say that worship means to offer sacrifice-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
给某人。 to someone.
呃，我们唯一献的祭是在弥撒中。 Uh, and the only sacrifice we offer is at mass.
我们以饼和酒的形式把圣子献给圣父。 We offer the Son under the form of bread and wine to the Father.
我们唯一能给神的就是神。 The only thing we can give to God is God.
我们把饼和酒作为祭物献上。 We offer the bread and wine as a sacrifice.
我们献上基督，唯一能除去罪的祭物。 We offer Christ, the only sacrifice that takes away sins.
好的。 Okay.
呃，所以我——我们不向马利亚献祭。 Uh, so w- we do not offer sacrifices to Mary.
早期教会中有异端这样做，他们因此被定罪。 There were heretics in the early church that did do that, that were condemned for that.
呃，所以我们，我们尊敬和敬重，呃，神的受造物， 他们是我们圣洁的榜样，在天上为我们祷告的圣徒。 Uh, so we, we honor and venerate, uh, God's creatures who are examples of holiness to us, saints in heaven who pray for us.
呃，所以我们尊敬马利亚因为马利亚自己在路加福音中说：「万代都要称我 有福，因为那有权能的为我做了大事。」我们不把马利亚当作女神敬拜。 Uh, so we honor Mary because Mary herself says in the Gospel of Luke, she says, "All generations will call me blessed for the Mighty One has done great things for me." We do not worship Mary as a goddess.
另一个可能是公教徒相信我们是靠信心和行为得救，而新教徒只靠信心。 The other one might be Catholics believe we're saved by faith and works, and Protestants only by faith.
我想那是一个。 I think that's one.
不。 No.
教理问答第2010段：「救恩的最初时刻，没有什么能配得 ，无论是信心还是行为。」当我受洗时，我不配得那救恩。 Paragraph 2010 of the Catechism, "The initial moment of salvation, nothing can merit it, neither faith nor works." When I was baptized, I didn't merit that salvation.
这完全是一个恩赐。 It was all a gift.
我有的信心是神的恩赐。 The faith I had was a gift from God.
洗礼是一个恩赐。 The baptism was a gift.
我想要受洗的愿望是一个恩赐，我只是没有说不。 My desire to be baptized was a gift that I merely did not say no to.
是的。 Yeah.
我接受了它。 And I accepted it.
所以我会说我们，我们不相信你是靠信心和行为得 救，意思是你必须做任意数量的善事才能上天堂。 So I would say that we, we do not believe you are saved by faith and works in the sense that you have to do an arbitrary number of good deeds to go to heaven.
你只需要在洗礼中接受圣灵，在洗礼中与基督联合， 然后在他的教会中继续顺服基督，不在大罪中死去。 You just have to receive the Holy Spirit in baptism, be united to Christ in baptism, and then remain obedient to Christ in his church and not die in mortal sin.
好的，下一个。 Okay, next one.
呃，这个听起来有点煽动性，但我认识这个布雷登—— Uh, this one sounds a little inflammatory, but I know this guy Brayden-
或者是煽动性的。 Or it's orflamatory .
是的。 Yeah.
我知道。 I know.
哦，对了。 Oh, that's right.
呃，我认识这个人，他不是这个意思，但这就是它听起来的样子。 Uh, I know this guy, and he doesn't mean it this way, but this is how it sounds.
嗯，「如果祭司每周都能通过规定补赎来救赎我，那么无罪生活的动力是什么？」 Um, "What is the incentive to live without sin if a priest can redeem me each week by prescribing a penance?"
好吧，我要说的是补赎不是使你得救赎或赦免你的罪的东西。 Well, what I would say is the penance is not what redeems you or forgives you of sins.
我会说同样的反对意见适用于每一个基督教神学体系。 I would say the same objection applies to every single Christian theological system.
呃，作为一个新教徒，我可以直接去求神赦免，那么我无罪生活的动力在哪里？ Uh, where is the incentive for me to live without sin where as a Protestant I could just go ask God for forgiveness?
就像如果我每次犯了大罪都可以去…… Like if I can always go when I commit a grave sin...
如——如果，如果有人对你说，你知道，「我该怎么办？ S- if, if someone says to you, you know, "What do I do?
我做了这件可怕的事。」你说：「好吧，求神赦免你的，你的罪。」有人可能会 说：「好的，为什么不一直犯罪然后这样做呢？」所以无论你是通过教会的圣职 人员寻求与神和好还是直接接近神，呃，公教徒也可以，可以自由这样做。 I did this horrible thing." You say, "Well, ask God to forgive you of, of your sin." Someone could say, "Okay, why not just sin all the time and do that?" So whether you approach a minister of the church to seek reconciliation with God or you approach God directly, uh, and Catholics are free to, free to do that as well.
他们可以接近祭司，比如说。 They can approach a priest, for example.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但就像神给我们圣职人员带我们进入信仰一样，就像你不能给自己施洗。 But just as God gave us a minister to bring us into the faith, like you can't baptize yourself.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
这很有趣。 It's interesting.
你不能给自己施洗。 You can't baptize yourself.
你必须去找教会的圣职人员。 You have to go to a minister of the church.
我们接近教会的圣职人员来重新建立与神的友谊是合适的。 It's fitting we approach a minister of the church to be reinstated into friendship with God.
呃，所以它不会，它不会造成任何种类的…… Uh, so it doesn't, it doesn't create any sort of...
如果说有什么的话，你必须去找某人这个事实反而创造了不犯罪的动力。 If anything, the fact that you have to go to somebody creates an incentive not to commit sins.
我喜欢看到祭司在告解中说：「基督的位格。」我是说，这很有趣，对吧？ I love seeing a priest in confession saying, "The person of Christ." I mean, it's so funny, right?
就像，就像：「哦，我很尴尬，就像，要把这个 罪告诉祭司。」当然，你可以匿名去找祭司。 Like, be like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed, like, to tell this sin to a priest." And you can go to priests anonymously, of course.
但就像：「我很尴尬要告诉祭司那个。」但然后人们却不尴尬告诉神他们犯的罪。 But it's like, "I'm embarrassed to tell a priest that." But then people aren't embarrassed to tell God the sins they've committed.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
就像，我们不应该…… Like, shouldn't we...
这不应该是我们真正感到尴尬的事吗？ Shouldn't that be what we're really embarrassed about?
是的。 Yeah.
但我认为这很能说明问题，我认为在神的智慧中，给我们这个圣事来显示罪多么严重 ，罪是多么严重，教会想要作为一个充满爱的牧养指导来带我们进入与他的团契。 But I think that it's very telling there, and I think in God's wisdom, giving us this sacrament to show how serious sin, that how serious sin is, that the church wants to be there as a loving pastoral guide to bring us into community with Him.
所以我会说这个特别的反对意见，任何体系，神赦罪的任何方式都可能被滥用。 So I would say that this particular objection, any system, any way that God forgives sins can be abused.
你知道：「好吧，为什么不就做一个——为什么不 做一个可怕的人，然后在生命结束时接受耶稣？」 You know, "Well, why not just be a cr- why not be a horrible person, then accept Jesus at the end of my life?"
任何体系都可能被滥用。 Any system can be abused.
是的。 Yeah.
我们必须看神给我们的恩典和救恩的恩赐的正确使用是什么。 We have to look at what is the proper use of the gift of grace and salvation God has given us.
好的。 Okay.
呃，下一个。 Uh, next one.
呃，这是，呃，如——如果，呃，你需要，想要回去看看它的上下文，这——这没问题。 Uh, and this is, uh, i- if, if, uh, you need to, want to go back and look at the context of it, i- it's fine.
你要回答它。 You're gonna have to answer it.
但是，嗯，在罗马书7:9，呃，当保罗说：「我以前没有律法是活着的， 但是诫命来到，罪又活了，我就死了。」呃，有一个问题是，嗯，关于罗马 书7:9，保罗基本上说他在诫命来到之前是活着的，诫命带给他死亡。 But, um, in Romans 7:9, uh, when Paul said, "I was once alive without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died." Uh, there was a question that was, um, about Romans 7:9, where Paul basically says he was alive before the commandment came, which brought death to him.
所以，嗯，这个论点会像，那是在他还是婴儿小孩时从未了解它之前，然 后当有人向他传道，当主的诫命来到时，他就死了因为它暴露了他的罪。 And so, um, the argument would be like, that was before he ever learned about it when he was an infant young child, and then when he was preached to, when the commandment of the Lord came, then he died because it exposed his sin.
是的。 Yeah.
呃，我会说——我看不出那真的只适用于他的，他的…… Uh, I would s- I couldn't see that really applying just to his, his...
关于童年—— about childhood-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
和关于负责任的年龄或童年的天真。 and about like an age of accountability or of childly innocence.
贯穿罗马书的上下文，保罗基本上是在说这个：你 不必成为一个好犹太人才能成为一个好基督徒。 The context running all throughout Romans, what Paul is saying is basically this: you don't have to be a good Jew to be a good Christian.
这是他谈论的第一主题。 That is the number one theme that he is talking about.
所以当谈到信心和行为，我们因信称义而不是因律法的行为—— So when talking about faith and works and we're justified by faith apart from works of the law-
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
…… ...
很多人错误地认为保罗在这里谈论的是我们因信称义而不是因善行。 many people mistakenly believe that what Paul is talking about here is we're justified by faith apart from good deeds.
但这不是保罗真正在谈论的。 But that's not what Paul is really talking about.
现在，他不相信你做善事就能得救，进入救恩。 Now, he doesn't believe you do good deeds to be saved, to enter into salvation.
但他在这里谈论的是…… But what he's talking about here is that...
他特别谈论的是做……的行为 He's talking specifically about doing works of...
就像你可以翻译律法的行为，你可以翻…… Like you can translate works of law, you can trans...
Nomos，律法，它可以说我们因信称义，不是因妥拉的行为。 Nomos, law, it can say we are justified by faith and not works of Torah.
所以这会是更好的理解保罗所说的方式。 So that would be a better way to understand what Paul is saying.
我们因信称义，不是因妥拉的行为。 We're justified by faith and not by works of Torah.
我们不是因遵守十诫而称义，因为它们是妥拉。 We're not justified by following the Ten Commandments because they're the Torah.
嗯。 Hm.
我们仍然必须遵守它们。 We still have to follow them.
你不能作为基督徒就停止遵守它们。 You can't just stop following them as a Christian.
但我——我们没有…… But w- we don't have...
你不必成为一个好犹太人才能成为一个好基督徒。 You don't have to become a good Jew to become a good Christian.
你不必受割礼。 You don't have to be circumcised.
你不必遵守妥拉然后相信耶稣。 You don't have to follow the Torah and then believe in Jesus.
你只需要通过相信耶稣和在洗礼中接受他而得救。 You can just be saved by believing in Jesus and receiving Him through baptism.
保罗在罗马书第6章中明确说明这一点，当他谈 到在洗礼中，他把它比作在基督里死而复活。 And Paul makes that clear in Romans chapter 6, when he talks about how in baptism, he compares that to dying and rising again in Christ.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
所以我会说那里讨论的不是关于童年的天真。 So I would say that what is being discussed there is not about childly innocence.
是妥拉不是给我们救恩的东西。 It's that the Torah is not what gives us salvation.
它是有帮助的指导。 It was the helpful guide.
在加拉太书中，他称它为paidagōgós。 In Galatians, he calls it the paidagōgós.
他称它为带我们到神那里的保姆。 He calls it the babysitter that led us to God.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
但现在基督在这里，妥拉不是给我们救恩的东西。 But now that Christ is here, the Torah is not what gives us salvation.
妥拉中有好的东西。 There are good things in the Torah.
有些事我们仍然应该遵守，像十诫，但你不是因为它们是妥拉而遵守它们—— There are things we should still follow, like the Ten Commandments, but you don't follow them because they are Torah-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
因为它们是旧约的律法。 because they are the Old Testament law.
呃，那不是拯救我们的东西。 Uh, that is not what saves us.
事实上，把它当作拯救我们的东西来遵守，那就是带来死亡的东西。 In fact, to follow it as if it is what saves us, that is what brings death.
保罗在说：「不，带来生命的是耶稣基督。」 Where Paul is saying, "No, what brings life is Jesus Christ."
好的。 Okay.
呃，这个，我也要总结一下。 Uh, this one, I'm gonna summarize it as well.
嗯—— Um-
好的。 All right.
这是你和加文·奥特伦德谈论的关于哥尼流的事，呃，在那里重生…… This is something that you talked about with Gavin Ortlund about Cornelius, uh, being regenerated in that...
在使徒行传10章中在洗礼之前。 in Acts 10 prior to baptism.
是的。 Yeah.
嗯，呃，米切尔在这里指出在使徒行传8章中，你看到撒马利亚人受洗 ，然后他们后来才接受圣灵，呃，在使徒把圣灵的恩赐赐给他们之后。 Um, uh, Mitchell here points out that in Acts 8, you see that the Samaritans were baptized, then they received the Holy Spirit afterward, uh, after they imparted the gift of the Holy Spirit to them, the apostles did.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，所以问题是—— Uh, so the question is-...
呃，你如何证明哥尼流的洗礼不是——哦等等，你如何证明哥尼流的洗礼不是重生的？ uh, how do you justify that Cornelius' baptism was non- oh wait, how do you justify that Cornelius' baptism was non-regenerative?
呃，你怎么，怎么解释——把哥尼流的洗礼解释为一个例外而不使它完全成为另一种洗礼？ Uh, how would you, how would interpret- interpreting Cornelius' baptism as an exception not make it another baptism entirely?
对。 Right.
所以我——我在这里要说的是我们必须看使徒行传第10章到第15章的更大计划 ，在所有这些和进入彼得的异象中，所有这些都导向一个非常重要的时刻，神特别 做出一个例外来解决早期教会的一个关键问题，这就是保罗谈论的信心和行为。 So what- what I would say here is that we have to look at the larger scheme in Acts Chapter 10 going to Acts 15, that in all of this and then going into Peter's vision, that all of this is leading up to a very important moment where God is making an exception specifically to resolve a crucial problem in the early church, which is what Paul's talking about with faith and works.
是的。 Yeah.
那就是外邦人的救恩。 And that would be the salvation of the Gentiles.
最初的想法是，嗯，你知道，这是一件事，这是为犹太人，为选民，要说：「不，这——时 候到了，现在要突破到外邦世界。」显然这对每个人都不清楚，所以我必须在这里做一个特 别的干预来使它非常清楚，这样它就能在启示——你知道，在那个事件中变得清楚，最终在 耶路撒冷会议中无误地教导彼得所接受的这个启示，并使它对整个教会具有约束力。 That originally the idea is, well, you know, this is something, this is for the Jewish people, for the chosen people, to say, "No, this- the time has come now to break out into the Gentile world." And apparently that hasn't been clear to everybody, so I'm gonna have to make a special intervention here to intervene to make that abundantly clear so that it can be made clear in the revel- you know, in that incident, ultimately culminating in the Council of Jerusalem infallibly teaching this revelation that Peter has received and making it binding upon the- upon the whole church.
所以我认为当你看使徒行传时，很多这样的事，当人们谈论洗礼并且他们想停 留在使徒行传中时很有趣，因为很多这样做的人也相信只奉耶稣的名施洗。 So I think a lot of that when you're looking in Acts of the Apostles, it's- it's very interesting when people talk about baptism and they, like, want to stay in Acts, because a lot of people who do that also believe in Jesus only baptism.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
当他们只想停留在那里，他们如此短视地专注于使徒行传…… That when they just want to stay there and they get so myopically focused on the Book of Acts...
我记得有一次我实际上在和一个新教徒对话，他对我说：「如果我们只有，你知道…… I remember once I was having a dialogue with a Protestant, actually, and he said to me, "If we only had, you know...
如果我们只有使徒行传和保罗的书信，我们能拯救人吗？ Could we save people if we only had Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letters?
就像那会足够吗，我们有足够的来拯救人吗？」我会…… Like would that be enough that we have enough to save people?" And I would...
我说：「嗯，不，因为我们不会有洗礼的程式。」那只在马太福音第28章。 and I said, "Well, no, because we wouldn't have the baptismal formula." That's only in Matthew Chapter 28.
你知道吗？ You know?
所以试图，就像，重——你知道，减少……的想法 So the idea of trying to, like, re- you know, reducing...
因为他们在跟我说：「嗯，你能有这个或没有那个吗？」我 ——我——所以我认为看，你知道，整个上下文很重要。 Because they were talking to me about, "Well, could you have this or not have that?" I- I- So I think it's important there to look at, you know, the entire context.
而且也看，比如，坚振圣事，通过按手接受圣灵，比如通过傅油， 看到在早期教会中这作为完成一个人进入信仰的入门也起作用。 And also looking at, like, the Sacrament of Confirmation, of receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, for example, by anointing, seeing that in the early church as fulfilling one's initiation into the faith also comes into play.
所以我——我会说理解哥尼流的例外，它不会创造另一种洗礼，它只 是创造一个独特的时刻，在使徒行传15章的宣告中达到它的完成。 So I- I would say that understanding the exception for Cornelius, it doesn't create another kind of baptism, it just creates a unique moment that reaches its fulfillment in the declaration in Acts 15.
太好了。 Awesome.
呃，最后一个，来自埃里克，你实际上在进来时遇到了他。 Uh, last one, from Eric, who you actually met on the way in here.
啊。 Ah.
嗯，给开始学习基督教护教学的人推荐三本书。 Um, three book recommendations for people starting out in Christian apologetics.
哦。 Ooh.
所以就是在捍卫基督教信仰的基础？ So just in defending the- the basics of the Christian faith?
是的。 Yeah.
神的存在，诸如此类的事情。 Existence of God, things like that.
哦，有，有很多，很多东西。 Oh, so, so many, so many things.
呃，好，我喜欢的一个—— Uh, well, one that I like-
这可能是最难的一个。 This might be the hardest one.
不，不，不，不。 No, no, no, no.
这可能是最难的问题。 This might be the hardest question.
好，一个…… Well, one that...
这——这里有几个我可以——我可以提出来。 Here- here's a few I can- I can throw in there.
所以三个作为开始。 So three just to start off with.
呃，我喜欢的一个他们可能会喜欢的护教学书，它涵盖基督 教护教学，也涵盖一些公教护教学，但它涵盖广泛的问题。 Uh, one that I like that they might enjoy just for apologetics, it covers Christian apologetics, it also covers some Catholic apologetics, but it covers a wide variety of issues.
呃，我的朋友吉米·埃金的书，《每日护教》。 Uh, my friend Jimmy Akin's book, A Daily Defense.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
它就像一个，就像，你知道那些日——像一个翻页日历？ And it's like a, like, you know those cal- like a flip calendar?
是的。 Yeah.
它每天有一个护教论点。 It has one apologetic argument every day.
那很酷。 That is cool.
所以它有366个，我想。 So it's 366, I think.
很酷的计划。 Cool program.
闰年也有一个。 One for leap years also.
你只要读过去，它涵盖神、耶稣、圣经，还有公教。 And you just go through, it covers God, Jesus, the Bible, and also Catholicism.
我认为这是一个很好的开始。 I think it's a nice start.
是的。 Yeah.
这只是以这种方式开始理解护教学的一个很好的开始。 It's just a nice start of just starting to understand apologetics in this way.
呃，我想如果你想更深入，那是一个…… Uh, I think then if you want to go deeper, that is a...
我在试图想一个真正扎实的基督教护教学。 I'm trying to think of a really solid Christian apologetic.
我也不想自私。 I also don't want to be self-serving.
我是说，我可以提到我自己的东西，但我不想那样做。 I mean, I could mention my own stuff, but I don't want to do that.
你的不算—— Yours won't count-
不。 No.
…… ...
如果你提到它们。 if you mention them.
我不能提到它们。 I cannot mention them.
呃，有一个比较高级的，但我想它可能是我最喜欢的关 于无神论的是埃德·费泽的《神存在的五个证明》。 Uh, one that's kind of advanced, but I think it's probably my favorite on atheism is Five Proofs of the Existence of God by Ed Feser.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
呃，它从古典有神论的角度对无神论有很好的批评。 Uh, it has a really great critique of atheism from a classical theistic perspective.
至少，它是一本有点深奥的书，读运动论证，然后他对自然神学的辩护只是其中的两章。 At the very least, it's kind of a heady book, read the Argument from Motion, and then his Defense of Natural Theology is just two chapters in it.
好的。 Okay.
很值得用来回应无神论。 Well worth it to reply to atheism.
而且他在那里还有，呃，其他好的论点，嗯，也是。 And he's got, uh, other good arguments in there, um, as well.
但说到这个，我过去常谈论《布莱克韦尔自然神学指南》，但哇，那是一本砖头书。 But when it comes to that, I used to talk about the Blackwell Companion Natural Theology, but woof, that is a brick of a book.
哦，真的吗？ Oh, really?
呃，但当它…… Uh, but when it...
哦，让我们看看。 Oh, let's see.
其他——其他护教学书籍。 Other- other apologetic books.
哦。 Oh.
呃，好，利科纳和哈伯马斯的《复活的论证》。 Uh, well, Case for the Resurrection by Licona and Habermas.
我认为这是一个很好的入门。 I think it's a nice introduction.
如果你想更深入地了解复活，有，呃，迈克·利 科纳的书，《复活：一个新的历史学方法》。 If you want to go deeper on the resurrection, there is, uh, Mike Licona's book, The Resurrection: A New Historiographical Approach.
500页长。 500 pages long.
如果你想真正深入，加里·哈伯马斯现在有一本——像，一千页关于复活的书。 If you want to go real in depth, Gary Habermas has a- like, a thousand pages out now on the resurrection.
但如果你想轻松开始，如果你想轻松开始—— But if you want to start light, if you want to start light-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
哈伯马斯和利科纳的《复活的论证》，我认为这是 一个很好的，这是一个——这是一个很好的开始。 Case for the Resurrection by Habermas and Licona, I think it's a nice, it's a- it's a nice start there.
呃，但我喜欢《五个证明》。 Uh, but I love Five Proofs.
呃，我认为威廉·莱恩·克雷格的《合理的信仰》也是一本好书。 Uh, I think Reasonable Faith by William Lane Craig is also a good book.
你提到过…… You've mentioned...
那在开始时对你来说是一本形成性的书，对吧？ That was kind of a- a formative one for you in the beginning, right?
是的。 Yeah.
是的，那本。 Yeah, that one.
是的。 Yeah.
威廉·莱恩·克雷格，帮助我成为基督徒的人真的是 ，像，新教徒，像威廉·莱恩·克雷格和J.P. William Lane Craig, people who helped me become Christian were really, like, Protestants, like William Lane Craig and J.P.
莫兰德。 Moreland.
哇。 Wow.
说实话，那就是…… Honestly, that's where...
而且，还有一些公教徒像彼得·克里夫特。 And also, and some Catholics like Peter Kreeft.
但是，嗯…… But, um...
所以我认为那很好。 So I think that that's good.
呃，还有《公教护教学手册》，它大约90%是基督教的。 Uh, also the Catholic Handbook of Apologetics, it's like 90% Christian.
它过去叫《基督教护教学手册》，然后他们在下一版的最后 加了一些公教的内容，所以他们叫它《公教护教学手册》。 It used to be called the Christian Handbook of Apologetics and then they added some Catholic stuff at the end in the next edition, so they called it the Catholic Handbook of Apologetics.
但我认为很多新教徒仍然会喜欢它，它大约90%。 But I think many Protestants would still like it, it's like 90%.
嗯。 Mm-hmm.
好的。 Okay.
只是基督教护教学。 Just Christian apologetics.
太好了。 Awesome.
那是另一本我——我会推荐的好书。 That's another good one I- I'd recommend.
非常感谢你抽出时间。 Thank you so much for taking the time.
这对我来说意味着整个世界，真的。 It means the world to me, seriously.
哦，谢谢你邀请我。 Oh, thanks for having me.
很有趣。 It was fun.
我——非常感谢你，嗯，这给了我很多思考的东西，我很感激。 I- thank you so much, um, it gave me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it.
嗯—— Um-
随时。 Anytime.
而且，呃，好，我会做一个结尾，但这是特伦特· 霍伦，特伦特议会，嗯，他写的书，呃，很好。 And, uh, well, I'll do an outro, but this is Trent Horren, Council of Trent, um, the books he's written, uh, very good.
我——我——它们真的对我是一种祝福，我读过的那些。 I- I- They've really been a blessing to me, the ones that I've read.
而且，呃，让我们看看，公教答案，嗯，是的，专业柔术杀手，破坏者。 And, uh, let's see, Catholic Answers, um, yeah, professional jujitsu killer, destroyer.
不，不。 No, no.
我是…… I am...
不。 No.
我是一个，我是一个四…… I am a, I am a four...
就像，我得到了我的四条杠，花了，大约，三年才到达。 Like, I got my four stripes, it took, like, three years to get to.
所以，就像，我现在到了这个点，就像，我只是对知道所有我不知道的事情感到沮丧—— So, like, I am now at the point where, like, I am just depressed at knowing all the things I don't know-
是的。 Yeah.
…… ...
而且我——我有足够的灵活游戏至少，就像，能和蓝带 们周旋一段不错的时间，然后紫带和以上就只是—— and I- I have enough of a squirrelly game to at least, like, survive with the blue belts for a decent while, and then purple and above it's just- ...
我只是…… I'm just...
我出局了。 I'm out.
所以—— So-
哦，天啊。 Oh, man.
好，非常感谢你。 Well, thank you so much.
是的。 Yeah.
谢谢大家。 Thank you everyone.
再见。 Bye.
很快再和你谈。 Talk to you soon.
是的。 Yeah.
非常感谢大家观看，别忘了给这一集点赞并订阅我们的频道。 Thank you guys so much for watching, and don't forget to like this episode and subscribe to our channel.
再次感谢，希望你有一个蒙福的一天。 Thanks again, and I hope you have a very blessed day.