我相信我们正在与斯科特·汉恩博士直播。 I believe we're live here with Dr. Scott Hahn.
斯科特·汉恩博士是史都本维方济各大学迈克尔·斯坎伦神父圣经神学和新福传教授。 Dr. Scott Hahn is the Father Michael Scanlon Professor of Biblical Theology and the New Evangelization at the Franciscan University of Steubenville.
他是圣保罗中心的创始人和主席，这是一个致力于 教导公教徒从教会的核心去阅读圣经的使徒事工。 He's the founder and president of the St. Paul Center, an apostolate dedicated to teaching Catholics to read Scripture from the heart of the Church.
汉恩博士与金伯利结婚已经40年了。 Dr. Hahn has been married to Kimberly for 40 years.
他们有六个孩子，19个孙子孙女，他们的两个儿子目前正在史都本维教区接受祭司培训。 They have six kids, 19 grandkids, and two of their sons are currently in priestly formation with the Diocese of Steubenville.
我相信他们中至少有一个人现在是过渡执事，对吗？ I believe at least one of them is a transitional deacon right now, isn't that right?
是的，杰里迈亚。 Yep, Jeremiah.
太棒了！ Awesome!
他是40多本畅销书和学术著作的作者和编辑。 He's the author and editor of over 40 popular and academic books.
汉恩博士的作品包括畅销书《罗马甜蜜的家》、《羔羊的晚 餐》和《万福圣母》，观看这个的每个人都知道这些书。 Dr. Hahn's works include best-selling titles Rome's Sweet Home, The Lamb's Supper, and Hail Holy Queen, which everyone that's watching this knows those books.
他最近出版的书名为《期待死亡：基督徒理解的死亡与身体复活》。 His most recent release is titled Hope to Die: The Christian Meaning of Death and the Resurrection of the Body.
那么，哪个更难，养育六个孩子还是写40本书？ So what was harder, raising six kids or writing 40 books?
哦，养育六个孩子无疑是我一生中最令人沮丧的经历，也是最令人满足的经历。 Oh, raising six kids has been by far and away the single most frustrating experience of my life and the single most fulfilling.
哦，天啊，回答得好，汉恩博士。 Oh my goodness, good answer, Dr. Hahn.
我想直接进入正题。 I want to jump right into it.
我们有一些问题，关于你是如何发现拉丁弥撒的，以及为什么你用拉丁弥撒培养你的家庭。 We have some questions about how you discovered the Latin Mass and why you raised your family with the Latin Mass.
你介意我们直接进入问题吗？ Do you mind if we just jump right into the questions?
直接开始吧，卡梅伦，顺便说一句，谢谢你的邀请。 Jump right in, Cameron, and by the way, thank you for the invitation.
和你在一起很高兴。 It's a joy to be with you.
哦，非常感谢！ Oh, thank you so much!
首先，很多人都想知道，汉恩博士是如何发现传统拉丁弥撒的？ So first, so many people are wondering, how did Dr. Scott Hahn discover the Traditional Latin Mass?
嗯，这要追溯到很久以前，大约30年前。 Well, it goes back a long time, 30 years or so.
我了解梵二前的形式以及新礼仪。 I was aware of the pre-conciliar form as well as the Novus Ordo.
但是，你知道，我在1986年加入了教会，所以在我最初的大 约五年内，我体验了拉丁弥撒，也就是现在所知的特殊形式。 But, you know, I came into the Church in 1986, and so within my first five years or so, I experienced the Latin Mass, the Extraordinary Form as it's known now.
我和一个好朋友霍华德·沃尔什在纽约市，金伯利也和我在一起。 I was in New York City with a good friend, Howard Walsh, and Kimberly was with me.
在我演讲结束时，他问我是否愿意和他一起去圣雅妮参加拉丁弥撒。 He asked me at the end of my presentations if I would like to join him for the Latin Mass at St. Agnes.
我没有意识到从我们所在的地方到那里大约需要45分钟。 I didn't realize it was about 45 minutes from where we were.
我说当然，然后我告诉金伯利我们要去参加我们的第一次拉丁弥撒。 I said sure, and then I let Kimberly know we were going to our first Latin Mass.
当然，事后我意识到我应该先问过她的。 I realized, of course, in retrospect, I should have asked her first.
所以我们到了那里，那里很忙，当我们到达小堂，教堂时，我基本上不知道我不知道什么。 So we got there, and it was busy, and when we got to the chapel, the church, I basically didn't know what I didn't know.
所以我观察着，我立即意识到了差异，超越性，敬畏和崇敬的感 觉，还有金伯利的配偶烦躁感，因为她加入教会还不到两年。 And so I watched and I observed, and I was immediately aware of the difference, the transcendence, the sense of awe and reverence, and also the sense of spousal irritation on the part of Kimberly because she had been in the Church less than two years.
她生来就是福音派的。 She had been born and raised evangelical.
我从小到青少年时期都是一种名义上的自由派长老会信徒，所以我更习惯于尝试，踏入未 知，比如成为公教徒，这对她来说是不可想象的，就像在80年代中期叛逃到苏联一样。 I had been born and raised sort of nominal liberal Presbyterian until my teenage years, and so I was much more accustomed to kind of experimenting, just stepping out into the unknown, like becoming Catholic, which had been unthinkable for her, any more than defecting to the Soviet Union in the mid-'80s.
所以这对我来说很难，因为这对她来说很难。 And so it was hard for me because it was hard for her.
这对我来说也很难，因为它是如此不寻常，如此不同。 It was also hard for me because it was so unusual, it was so different.
但让我退一步说，因为我认为我在某种程度上已经为这种差异做好了准备。 But let me take a step back because I think I was somewhat prepared for the difference.
我进入公教会的旅程的一部分是花很多时间在二手书店里，积累了很多二手公教书籍。 Part of my journey into the Catholic Church was to spend a lot of time in used bookstores and to accumulate a lot of used Catholic books.
所以我一直在研究弥撒，同时，我从未参加过弥撒，但我拿起了一本圣约瑟弥撒经书，它 可以追溯到梵二之前。在我参加弥撒之前，我会翻阅那些页面，祈祷，只是感受到弥撒是 多么充满圣经内容，多么超越，多么强调神的圣洁，以一种非常以神为中心的方式。 And so I had been studying the Mass, and at the same time, I'd never gone to one, but I picked up a St. Joseph Missal, which goes way back before Vatican II. And before I'd ever gone to Mass, I would go through those pages and pray the prayers and just get a sense of how scripturally saturated the Mass was, how transcendent, how much it was emphasizing the holiness of God in a very God-centered way.
然而同时，它是如此的三位一体。 And yet at the same time, it was so Trinitarian.
它非常关注圣父、圣子和圣灵。 It was so much about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
所以我翻阅那些页面几十次，所以我能够在霍华德的帮助下稍微跟上正在发生的事情。 And so I went through those pages dozens and dozens of times, and so I was able to follow along slightly with Howard's assistance in terms of what was going on.
我能感觉到我所预期的圣约瑟弥撒经书页面与纽约市圣雅妮的拉丁弥撒之间的匹配。 And I could sense the match that I had anticipated between the pages of the St. Joseph Missal on the one hand and the Latin Mass at St. Agnes in New York City on the other.
不过，我还要说，谜题的另一部分是，当我在80年代中期在密尔 沃基马奎特大学地下小堂参加我的第一次弥撒时，那是新礼仪，我 并没有通过查看圣约瑟弥撒经书或其他任何东西来真正准备好。 I'd also say this, though: another piece of the puzzle was that when I had gone to my first Mass back in the mid-'80s in Milwaukee in the basement chapel at Marquette, it was the Novus Ordo, and I hadn't really been prepared for that by looking at the St. Joseph Missal or anything else.
所以当时打动我的，当然是他们开始吟唱阿格努斯·戴，除去世界罪孽的神的羔羊的方式。 And so what struck me at that point was, of course, the way they began to intone the Agnus Dei, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.
我还从阅读殉道者游斯丁关于二世纪古代礼仪的清单中注意到， 我在那个工作日中午在地下小堂经历的弥撒与我从殉道者游斯丁 对古代礼仪的描述中所读到的内容大部分有着完美的对应关系。 And I'd also noticed from my reading of St. Justin Martyr's checklist of what the ancient liturgy was in the second century what a perfect correspondence there was for the most part between what I had experienced that weekday at a noon Mass in a basement chapel and what I'd been reading about from St. Justin Martyr's description of the ancient liturgy.
所以对我来说，这就像是一个神圣的混合物。 And so for me, it was something like a holy hodgepodge.
我认为还有一个合适的组成部分是我对约的研究，发现约不主要 是一份文件，而是一个圣事，耶稣只在他设立圣餐时谈到新约。 One other component that I think also fits is my study of the covenant and discovering that the covenant is not primarily a document but a sacrament, that Jesus only speaks of the new covenant when he's instituted the Eucharist.
然后他没有迅速补充说，「把这记下来以纪念我」，而是说「你们要这样做」。 And then he doesn't quickly add, Write this in remembrance of me, but Do this.
所以醒悟并意识到新约，新约圣经，在它开始成为一份文件之前很久就 是一个圣事，并在文件中找到这一点是一个相当大且强烈的顿悟时刻。 And so to wake up and realize that the new covenant, the New Testament, was a sacrament long before it started to become a document, and to find that in the document was something of a Eureka moment that was not very small but quite large and intense.
我还要说：当你读圣经时，意识到摩西五经中关于礼 仪的内容远比关于经济或政治立法的内容多得多。 I would also say this: that realizing that when you read the Bible, there's so much more about the liturgy in the Pentateuch than there is about economic or political legislation.
所以认识到在我自己的传统中，礼仪是边缘的，而在圣经中，它始 终是核心，无论你是作为12个支派在摩西带领下聚集在西奈山， 还是与所有支派和外邦朝圣者一起聚集在锡安山和所罗门圣殿。 And so to recognize that in my own tradition, liturgy was peripheral, whereas in Scripture, it was front and center all the time, whether you were gathered as 12 tribes at Mount Sinai under Moses or whether you gathered at Mount Zion and Solomon's Temple with all the tribes and the Gentile pilgrims too.
大祭司在祭坛上的祭献始终是主要事件。 The sacrifice by the high priest at the altar was always the main event.
所以，你知道，我就像一个侦探在查看所有线索。 And so, you know, I was a detective looking at all the clues.
我也在一种浪漫中坠入爱河；这就是我在《罗马甜蜜的家》中描述的方式。 I was also falling in love in a sort of romance; that's how I describe it in Rome's Sweet Home.
但也有一些真正可怕的事情，因为，你知道，我正在踏入未知 ，而且不仅仅是一步；它就像是10、20、30、40步。 But there was also something really scary because, you know, I was stepping out into the unknown, and it wasn't just one step; it was like 10, 20, 30, 40 steps.
当我们离开纽约圣雅妮的那次拉丁弥撒时，我记得听到自己有点向金 伯利承诺，我们不会很快或频繁地回去，因为这对她来说太震惊了。 And when we left that Latin Mass at St. Agnes in New York, I remember hearing myself kind of promise Kimberly that we wouldn't go back anytime soon or with frequency because it was so jarring for her.
我没有做任何事情来准备她，所以这对她来说是一种创伤。 I hadn't done anything to prepare her, and so it was something of a trauma.
我想以初步的方式说的最后一件事是，当你在圣经和活的传统中与神的 话语搏斗，并认识到约的概念的中心性时，它远比神圣契约要多得多。 The last thing I want to say just up front in a preliminary sort of way is that when you grapple with the word of God in Sacred Scripture and living tradition, and you come to recognize the centrality of the notion of covenant, it's something so much more than a sacred contract.
它真的是一种神圣的亲属关系纽带，将三位一体，圣父、圣子和圣灵与 神的母亲，与人子，神的儿子，与圣约瑟，圣家和整个教会联合起来。 It really is a sacred kinship bond uniting the Trinity, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit with the Mother of God, with the Son of Man, the Son of God, with St. Joseph, the Holy Family, and the whole Church.
我的意思是，这就像是一个超级强化的大家庭。 I mean, it's like an extended family on steroids.
但你也在教父的著作中发现了这个我们翻译为迁就，神的迁就的概念。 But you also discover in the writings of the Fathers this notion that we translate as accommodation, divine accommodation.
希腊教父使用了这个术语；它是一个复合词。 The Greek Fathers used the term; it's a compound.
它包括神的两个行动：俯身到我们的卑微中，无论他要俯得多低。 It consists of two actions on the part of God stooping down to us in our lowliness, no matter how low he has to go.
神的慈悲之爱最终会到达马槽，十字架上，你知道，圣盘上，我的舌头上。 The merciful love of God will end up in a manger, on a cross, you know, on a patent, on my tongue.
神，以他的谦卑，我的意思是，我会说这是比喻或类比，但神会不管要俯身多低都会 去寻找他迷失的孩子，他的浪子和浪女，无论以什么方式都会向他们传达他的爱。 God, in his humility, I mean, I would say that's metaphorical or analogical, but God will stoop however low he has to go to find his wayward children, his prodigal sons and daughters, who communicates his love to them in whatever terms it will take.
但总卡塔巴西斯的第二部分不仅是神的屈尊，卡塔巴西斯，还有神的提升，阿纳巴西斯。 But the second part of sum catabasis is not only divine condescension, catabasis, but divine elevation, anabasis.
也就是说，他想带我们到他自己圣洁的高度，与我们分 享他的荣耀，就像他与天使和所有圣徒所做的那样。 That is, he wants to take us to the heights of his own holiness and share his glory with us like he has with the angels and all of the saints.
而你称之为普通经验的就是为人父母。 And what you call this an ordinary experience is parenting.
这就是父母所做的。 That's what parents do.
父亲会俯身到婴儿的摇篮，把他抱起来，擦他的鼻子，换尿布，母亲也会这样做。 A father will stoop down into the baby's crib and scoop him up and wipe his nose and change the diapers, and the mother will too.
当然，养育孩子的全部意义就是培养他们，使他们充满你的价 值观，然后这些价值观成为他们自己的价值观和其他一切。 And then, of course, the whole point of raising children is to raise them up so that they're filled with your values and they become their values and all of the rest.
我之所以这样说，是因为回顾我自己对公教礼仪的经历，包括新礼仪和特殊形式，我 真的能看到本笃教宗在《司祭的照顾》中的用意，因为这不像是两种不同的弥撒。 And I say this because in looking back on my own experience of the Catholic liturgy, both the Novus Ordo as well as the Extraordinary Form, I can really see what Pope Benedict was about in Samorum Pontificum because it isn't like two different Masses.
你知道，一个是特殊形式，另一个是常规形式。 You know, one is the Extraordinary Form and the other is the Ordinary Form.
在这个后公会议的情况下，我认为我们可以看到总卡塔巴西斯的一部分，即在新礼 仪中，神俯身到处于危机中的后公会议文化，疯狂世俗化的西方文明，他设计了一 种弥撒，有点像我们想要的，我们应得的，考虑到我们已经如此彻底地世俗化了。 And in this post-conciliar situation, I think we can see a slice of sum catabasis that in the Novus Ordo, God stoops down to a post-conciliar culture in crisis, Western civilization gone crazy in secularization, and he's devised a Mass sort of like what we want, what we deserve, given the fact that we have become so thoroughly secularized.
但这种形式能够找到像我这样刚成为公教徒的人，向我展示一 些如果我只是踏入教宗隆重大弥撒我可能无法识别的事物。 But one that can find a guy like me in the cradle as a brand-new Catholic and show me things that I might not otherwise be able to recognize if I just step foot into a pontifical solemn high Mass.
另一方面，我也发现了这种阿纳巴西斯的概念，即神想要像父亲一样提升我 们，使我们分享他自己的圣洁和荣耀，这就是我在特殊形式中发现重音有所 转移的地方，在那里你有那种巨大的敬畏感、超越感和崇敬感，以及奥秘， 你知道，就是对一位超越所有认知的奇妙神的巨大奥秘感，然而同时他又如 此深刻地爱我们，以至于他把自己的儿子作为生命之粮赐给我们。 On the other hand, I also discovered that this notion of anabasis, that God wants to raise us up as a Father and elevate us to share his own holiness and glory, and that is where I find the accent mark kind of shifting in the Extraordinary Form, where you have that tremendous sense of awe, transcendence, and reverence, and the mystery, and tremendous, you know, just the sense of the tremendous mystery of an awesome God who is beyond all knowing and yet at the same time is so profoundly in love with us that he gives his own Son as bread to us as the Bread of Life.
所以我希望这一整堆东西能有些意义，因为对我来说，这确实就像拿着 碎片，试图弄清楚这里的拼图是什么，而没有一个可以参考的图画。 And so I hope that whole jumble of things makes some sense because for me it really was like taking pieces and trying to figure out what is the puzzle here without really a picture to go on.
所以在我自己的祈祷反思和为我们的时间做准备时， 这些是浮现在我脑海中的一些主要想法，卡梅伦。 And so in my own prayerful reflection and preparation for our time, these were some of the main thoughts that came to me, Cameron.
是的，我也有过类似的经历。 Yeah, I had a similar experience.
我妻子第一次去参加拉丁弥撒，我很喜欢。 My wife going to Latin Mass for the first time, I loved it.
我心想，我可以在弥撒中祈祷；那里有如此多的安静。 I was like, I can pray at the Mass; there's so much silence.
这太棒了！ This is wonderful!
但是很多人的经历就像是，这与周一到周六的一切都如此陌生。 But there are many people's experiences that are just like, it's so alien to everything from Monday through Saturday.
我觉得这不是真的适合他们，但需要时间。 I feel like it's not really for them, but it takes time.
那么，从那一刻起，你的感受如何？ So, what was it like for you from that point?
什么最终引领你和金伯利回到拉丁弥撒？ What led you and Kimberly then back to the Latin Mass eventually?
嗯，我去的次数比她多得多，而且当她去的时候，她仍然承认对安静感到挣扎。 Well, I go much more than she goes, and when she does go, she still admittedly struggles with the silence.
因为在我们的堂区，即使是周日弥撒也是没有麦克 风的低弥撒；你几乎听不到神父在祈祷时的声音。 Because at our parish, even the Sunday Mass is a low Mass without a microphone; you can barely hear Father as he is, you know, praying.
我们也有特殊形式；我们也有面向东方的新礼仪，有很多拉丁语和很多圣咏。 We also have the Extraordinary; we also have the Novus Ordo ad orientum with a whole lot of Latin and a whole lot of chant.
她在唱诗班，她对额我略圣咏的了解比我对复音圣乐的了解要好得多。 She is in the choir, and she knows Gregorian chant a whole lot better than me in sacred polyphony as well.
在过去30年的大部分时间里，自从我们在史都本维 的圣彼得堂，我们也一直在祭台栏杆处领受圣餐。 For most of the last 30 years since we've been at St. Peter's in Steubenville, we've also been receiving Holy Communion at the altar rail.
所以我们有你所说的传统堂区，因此我们以一种非常传统的方式体验 新礼仪，我们也大部分时间以一种非常低调的方式体验拉丁弥撒。 So we have what you would call a traditional parish, and so we experience the Novus Ordo in a very traditional way, and we also experience the Latin Mass in a very low way for the most part.
通常，低弥撒在周日中午举行，我和我最小的儿子在那里，他对此了如指掌。 Typically, the low Mass is there at noon on Sunday, and I am there with my youngest son, who knows it like the back of his hand.
除了圣咏，他还了解拜占庭礼仪和拜占庭圣咏， 他曾去过由修会近30年前创立的大贵格利。 Along with chant, he also knows the Byzantine liturgy and Byzantine chant, having gone to Gregory the Great that had been founded by the fraternity almost 30 years ago.
但我确实倾向于更频繁地在周日去我们堂区的中午弥撒，正是因为我在第一次弥撒中 发现的，我在《羔羊的晚餐》一书中写到的，天地合一的感觉，但它们并不混淆。 But I do tend to go more frequently to the noon Mass at our parish on Sunday precisely because what I discovered at my first Mass that I wrote about in the book The Lamb's Supper is the sense that heaven and earth are united, but they're not confused.
你知道，天使和圣人下来加入我们，你知道，普通的，你知道，公教堂区 教友，坐在长椅上的普通教友，无论他是否知道周围有天使，你知道。 You know, the angels and the saints come down and join us, you know, ordinary, you know, Catholic parishioners, Joe's six-pack in the pew, whether he knows there are angels around him or not, you know.
所以我们区分天地，以显示它们如何合一，但它们并不混淆。 And so we distinguish heaven and earth in order to show how they're united, but they're not confused.
我喜欢遄达弥撒的是它如何让我安于自己的位置，作为一个卑微的平信徒，作 为一个皈依者，作为一个受造物，作为一个仆人，作为神的养子，作为一个仍 在地上的人，但通过信仰我可以看到天堂的临在：天使和圣人，神的荣耀，三 位一体，我们的大祭司基督复活的、成神的身体、血液、灵魂和神性。 What I like about the Tridentine Mass is how it puts me in my place as a lowly layperson, as a convert, as a creature, as a servant, as an adopted son of God, as someone who is still on earth, but by faith I can see heaven is present: the angels and saints, the glory of God, the Holy Trinity, the resurrected, divinized body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ our High Priest.
我的意思是，所有这些都真实地存在，但所有这些 都真的是看不见的，你知道，这真的很让人谦卑。 I mean, all of this is really present, but all of this is really invisible, you know, and it's just humbling.
这非常令人谦卑。 It's very humbling.
它提醒我，我在灵性上是多么盲目，多么无力，多么贫乏和可怜，但我又多么有特权，不 再是孤儿，而是在神的家庭中唱歌，你知道，咏唱，但也在大部分时间里静静地祈祷。 It reminds me of how spiritually blind I am, how lame I am, how needy and poor I am, and yet how privileged I am, no longer as an orphan but now in the family of God to sing, you know, to chant, but also to pray quietly for most of the hour.
这是我得出的一个区别；我没有与专业礼仪学家讨论过这个。 It's a distinction I have drawn; I haven't run this by professional liturgiologists.
我通常倾向于避开他们。 I usually tend to avoid them.
但是，你知道，我过去总是听说积极参与是梵二的这个重要强调，通常是所 有16个文件，但特别是在神圣宪章，《礼仪宪章》，《至圣会议》中。 But, you know, I used to always hear about active participation as this signal emphasis in, you know, Vatican II, generally all 16 documents, but especially on the Sacred Constitution, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy, Sacrosanctum Concilium.
但这里有一个区别，因为当我更仔细地看拉丁文时，我 认为比起积极参与，实际参与是对拉丁文更好的翻译。 But there's a distinction because when I look more closely at the Latin, I think a better translation of the Latin than active participation is actual participation.
我认为我们通常会假设，你知道，有什么区别呢？ I think we usually assume that, you know, what's the difference?
嗯，积极参与意味着站起来，跪下，你知道，坐下 再站起来，而且你在两种形式中显然都会这样做。 Well, active participation means standing up, kneeling, getting, you know, sitting and standing up, and you do that in both forms, obviously.
但我认为，实际参与更多是一种灵性活动。 But actual participation, I think, is more of a spiritual activity.
在许多这些周日中午的低弥撒中，对我实现的是这个：如果你谦卑自己，他就会高举你。 What is actualized for me on many of these Sunday noon low Masses is this: if you humble yourself, he will exalt you.
我觉得，你知道，我被遄达弥撒所谦卑。 I feel like, you know, I am humbled by the Tridentine Mass.
我因它而蒙恩。 I am graced by it.
我被邀请去祈祷。 I am invited to prayer.
这是一种沉默，但这是一种非常实现的沉默。 It's a silence, but it's a very actualized silence.
那些神圣的奥秘是如此真实，但甚至同样多或更多，它们是实在的。 The sacred mysteries that are so true, but even just as much or more, they're real.
这就是我觉得自己正在接触的东西。 That's what I feel like I'm being put in touch with.
我的意思是，几乎就像，你知道，你可以伸手触摸它们。 I mean, almost like, you know, you could reach out and touch them.
神父，背对着我们，你知道，在我们堂区的新礼仪中朝外，以及其他的，你知道， 它只是提醒我，他作为一名祭司代表我们，并且，你知道，他像我一样面向天堂。 The priest, with his back toward us, you know, out-orienting in the Novus Ordo at our parish, as well as the other, you know, it just reminds me that he represents us as a priest, and, you know, he is facing heaven as I am.
这些神圣元素在那里真的有一种很酷的融合，也是对《司祭的 照顾》的一个很酷的确认，也就是说，这些不是分歧的传统。 There's just a really cool convergence there of these sacred elements and also a really cool confirmation of Samorum Pontificum, that is, that these are not divergent traditions.
这些不是分歧的敬拜方式；这些是融合的。 These are not divergent ways of worship; these are convergent.
我认为我们可以在未来的岁月和几十年中越来越多地实现这种融合，使 我们真的能够按照圣灵所渴望的方式在我们的敬拜中有更多的重聚。 I think we can actualize that convergence more and more in the years and the decades to come so that we really can have more of a reunion in our worship the way the Holy Spirit desires.
你附近有一个堂区，在那里常规形式是面向东方举行的，还有祭台栏杆，这令人难以置信。 It's incredible that you have a parish near you where the Ordinary Form is celebrated ad orientem with an altar rail.
你用拉丁文咏唱弥撒的常规部分。 You're chanting the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin.
我从未去过新礼仪堂区。 I have never been at a Novus Ordo parish.
我不知道是否有任何观看的人曾经去过一个这些事情都是真实的新礼仪堂区。 I don't know if anyone watching has ever been at a Novus Ordo parish where those things are true.
那太棒了！ That's wonderful!
想象一下如果整个教会都是这样的。 Imagine if the whole Church was like that.
是的，所有对此的回应，这是一件很棒的事情。 Yeah, and all the responses to it, it's a wonderful thing.
好的，所以我们在史都本维星球上被宠坏了。 Okay, so we are spoiled here on Planet Steubenville.
不过，我还想说，我在主业会的经历非常相似，我们有新礼仪 ，通常是拉丁文，我们通常在前面的跪垫上领受，你知道。 I would also say this, though, that my experience in Opus Dei is very similar, that we have the Novus Ordo, and usually in Latin, and we usually receive, you know, on a kneeler up front.
我记得，也许我不应该说这个，但现在已经太晚了。 I remember, maybe I shouldn't say this, but it's too late now.
大约25年前，在我成为公教徒的最初十年左右，我仍然有点像大多数移 民一样带着口音说话，我怀疑我对出生就是公教徒的人来说仍然如此。 It was about 25 years ago, within the first decade or so of my being Catholic, and I was still sort of speaking with an accent like most immigrants, and I suspect I still do to cradle Catholics.
我有那种福音派的方言。 I have that evangelical dialect.
但我记得有一位非常具有争议性的神父神学家，不便透露姓名，愿神使他的灵魂安息。 But I remember there was a very controversial priest-theologian who will go unnamed, God rest his soul.
他是中西部一所非常著名的公教大学神学系的主 任，在几乎所有事情上他肯定更倾向于左派。 He was the chair of the Department of Theology at a very prominent Midwestern Catholic university, and he was definitely more left-leaning on almost everything.
他接受了采访，谈及他所看到的今天教会危机的根源，我没有记住那个清单，但我被清单 中的元素所震撼，因为在他识别的事物中有传统主义者、灵恩派、皈依的神职人员、护教 者、像EWTN和史都本维这样的地方，然后他迅速补充道，哦，是的，还有主业会。 He was interviewed as to what he saw as the sources of crises in the Church today, and I didn't commit the list to memory, but I was struck by the elements in the list because among the things he identified were traditionalists, charismatics, convert clergy, apologists, places like EWTN and Steubenville, and then he quickly added, Oh yeah, and Opus Dei.
我想，检查，检查，检查，好吧，我猜我一定是头号公敌，你知道吗？ And I'm thinking, check, check, check, okay, I guess I must be public enemy number one, you know?
但我也觉得，等一下，你知道，这不就是成为公教徒的意义吗？ But I also felt like, wait a minute, you know, isn't that what it means to be Catholic?
这不就是停止成为宗派的意义吗？ Isn't that what it means to cease to be sectarian?
所以你必须选择A、B、C、D或E？事实上， 我是一个公教徒，所以它有点像F，以上所有。 So you've got to choose A, B, C, D, or E? When in fact, I'm a Catholic, and so it's sort of like F, all of the above.
你知道，我是遄达派，我信奉三位一体，你知道，我们的第一位教宗说方言。 You know, I'm a Tridentine, I'm a Trinitarian, you know, our first Pope spoke in tongues.
这不是规范的，但它也不像看起来那么奇怪。 It's not normative, but it's not, you know, as strange as it seems.
我显然不是来这里吹嘘灵恩派的，但我要说，圣灵确实说话，那些有耳可听的 人能听到圣灵向众教会所说的话，借用启示录第2和第3章礼仪中的一个熟悉 短语。我真的相信，作为三位一体的信徒，我们必须对圣灵持开放态度，并认 识到圣灵在梵二召开之前很久就已经大有能力地吹拂，更不用说结束之后了。 And I'm not here, obviously, to blow a charismatic trumpet, but I would say that the Holy Spirit speaks, and those who have ears to hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches, to borrow a familiar phrase in the liturgy of the Apocalypse in Revelation 2 and 3. I really believe what we've got to do as Trinitarians is be open to the Holy Spirit and recognize that the Holy Spirit was blowing powerfully long before Vatican II was even called, much less ended.
事实上，它在梵一和遄达会议之前就吹拂着，一直可以追溯到第一个五旬节。 In fact, it was blowing before Vatican I and the Council of Trent, going all the way back to the first Pentecost.
我必须承认，我发现所有这些真正公教事物的融合比我许多倾向于选择 A或D或E或，你知道，那种事情的公教朋友更自然或超自然地自然。 I must admit that I find the kind of convergence of all of these things that are truly Catholic to be more natural or supernaturally natural than many of my Catholic friends who tend to kind of choose A or D or E or, you know, that sort of thing.
但我要说，在史都本维星球上，你有赞美和敬拜。 But I would say this, that here on Planet Steubenville, you have praise and worship.
你有自由创造一种福音派公教次文化，装备公教徒走出去，以一种喜乐的热忱与我们文化中 的世俗主义接触，我认为这在某些方面是一种比单纯诉诸公会议前传统更好的进攻策略。 You have a freedom to create an evangelical Catholic subculture that equips Catholics to go out and engage the secularism in our culture with a joyful zeal that I think in some ways is a better offensive strategy than simply appealing to the pre-conciliar tradition.
对我来说，两者兼而有之，因为我在特殊形式中经历了圣灵的能力，程度与在新礼仪中一 样多，甚至可能更多，当然比任何赞美节日中都多，尽管我从未参加过其中的任何一个。 For me, it's both and because I have experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in the extraordinary form every bit as much, and maybe more than in the Novus Ordo, and certainly than in any festival of praise, although I've never attended one of them.
但我想呼吁停止所有党派分裂。 But I want to call for a cease and desist to all of the partisan divisions.
我在这所大学已经30年了，我也会拿到《余民》并每周阅读它。 I've been here at the university for 30 years, and I also get the Remnant and read it every week.
所以我发现，正如以色列有12个支派，有时这些支派会进入兄弟间的竞争和紧张关系， 然而，由于它是至高者的约民，这是一种看似威胁统一性的多样性，但最终，我认为公教 会的多样性是如此部落间的，以至于12个支派加深了多样性；它们增强了多样性。 And so I just find that just as there were 12 tribes in Israel, and at times those tribes would sometimes enter into fraternal rivalry and tension, nevertheless, inasmuch as it is the covenant people of the Most High, it's a diversity that might seem to threaten unity, but in the end, I think the diversity of the Catholic Church is so intertribal that 12 tribes deepen the diversity; they enhance the diversity.
这就是多样性万岁！ It's vive la différence!
我说这些并不是要，你知道，相对化传统，因为我确实认为我们需要以强有力的方式 重新发现活的传统，永远不要将梵二与梵一和遄达会议以及所有先前的大公会议分开 解读，恢复连续性的诠释学，颠覆这种断裂和不连续性的诠释学，不仅推进本笃十六 世教宗的使命和愿景，而且还要认识到，你知道，教宗不是教会的头；基督才是。 And I'm not saying this to kind of, you know, relativize the tradition, because I do think that we are in the need of rediscovering the living tradition in a powerful way and never to interpret Vatican II apart from Vatican I and the Council of Trent and all of the previous ecumenical councils as well, to restore a hermeneutic of continuity, to subvert this hermeneutic of rupture and discontinuity, to not only advance the mission and the vision of Pope Benedict XVI, but also to recognize that, you know, the Pope is not the head of the Church; Christ is.
而教宗是基督的代理人。 And the Pope is the Vicar of Christ.
所以我认为，我们越有基督的心意，我们就越会与基督同形，并认识到他如 何仍然在每个时代适应每种文化，俯身到我们自己文化的卑微和堕落中，同 时通过圣灵的力量，他希望将我们提升到他自己的圣洁和荣耀的高度。 And so the more we, I think, the more we have the mind of Christ, the more we will be conformed to Christ and recognize how He still accommodates Himself in every age to every culture, stooping down to us in our own cultural lowliness and debasement, at the same time by the power of the Spirit, He wishes to raise us up to the heights of His own holiness and glory.
我真正欣赏传统拉丁弥撒的一点是它所展示的神的超越性。 One thing I really appreciate about the Traditional Latin Mass is this otherness of God that it kind of shows.
就像你提到的，礼仪不应该如此世俗，以至于我们忘记了神的超越性。 Like you were mentioning, the liturgy shouldn't be so worldly that we forget the otherness of God.
我发现神的超越性、敬拜的高度之间有一种美丽的平衡——他在他的宝座上。 I find a beautiful balance between the otherness of God, the height of worship—He's on His throne.
从某种意义上说，我与耶稣一起在神的右边。 I'm, in a sense, at the right hand of God there with Jesus.
但随后你有圣餐，你几乎需要神的那种超越性的存在，才能真 正欣赏神的屈尊，天堂在某种意义上溢出，我得以接纳他。 But then you have Holy Communion, and you almost need that otherness of God to be present to really appreciate this condescension of God, that heaven, in a sense, spills over and I get to receive Him.
我可以对此发表评论吗？ Can I just comment on that?
因为我在想，卡梅伦，若望保禄在他的最后一部通谕《圣体教会》（Ecclesia d e Eucharistia）中所说的，他呼吁公教徒更新和培养他所称的圣体惊叹。 Because I'm thinking, Cameron, of what John Paul said in his last encyclical, The Church of the Eucharist, Ecclesia de Eucharistia, where he called for Catholics to renew and cultivate what he called Eucharistic amazement.
我认为有时我们几乎有责任使自己对已经变得太过熟悉的事物陌生化。 I think it's almost incumbent upon us at times to defamiliarize ourselves with the things that have become almost too familiar.
这不是因为熟悉会滋生轻蔑，因为对神圣的事物它不会这样，但熟悉在 某种意义上可以实例化常规，帮助我们，而我们需要摆脱这种状态。 And not because familiarity breeds contempt, because it doesn't do that with things that are sacred, but familiarity can, in a certain sense, instantiate the routine and help us, and we need to get out of that.
所以退一步思考，认识到，好的，我们宣认的是什么？ And so to step back and to recognize, okay, what is it we profess?
我们宣认对三位一体、永恒之道成肉身、逾越奥秘、他的死亡和复活的纪念的信仰， 他在圣周四在圣餐中所设立的，他在受难日在髑髅地所忍受的，他在复活节星期日所 做的，以及复活如何不仅仅是为了使他的遗体复苏，而是为了使他的人性神化。 We profess the belief in the Holy Trinity, in the Incarnation of the Eternal Word, the Paschal Mystery, the memorial of His death and resurrection, what He instituted on Holy Thursday in the Eucharist, what He endured there on Good Friday at Calvary, what He does on Easter Sunday, and how the resurrection is ordered to not just resuscitating His corpse, but divinizing His humanity.
复活确实是为了圣餐，因为我们所领受的是基督复活的身体。 The resurrection is ordered indeed to the Eucharist because it is the resurrected body of Christ that we receive.
所以这里是凡人，他们将地上的物质，面包和酒，转变为永恒的道，成 了肉身的道，永恒三位一体的第二位格的身体、血液、灵魂和神性。 And so here are mere mortal men who are transforming earthly matter, bread and wine, into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of the Eternal Logos, the Word made flesh, the Second Person of the Eternal Trinity.
你好！ Hello!
你知道，我们经常听到自己说，为什么没有更多的人相信？ You know, we often hear ourselves say, why don't more people believe?
真正的问题是，为什么会有人相信呢？ The real question is, why does anybody believe that?
凡人能将地上的物质转变为神人的身体、血液、灵魂和神性，以 圣饼的形式放在我们的舌头上，在圣体龛中让我们敬奉和敬拜？ That mortal men can transform earthly matter into the body, blood, soul, and divinity of the God-man in the form of a wafer on our tongue, in the tabernacle for us to adore and worship?
你知道，真正的奇迹是我们中的任何人都相信。 You know, what is the real wonder is that any of us believe.
我的意思是，这几乎太奇怪了，不像是真的。 I mean, it's almost too weird to be true.
它几乎好得令人难以置信，但它确实是福音的真理。 It's almost too good to be true, except it is the truth of the Gospel.
它是信仰的神圣奥秘的真理。 It is the truth of the sacred mystery of faith.
当我们听到「信德的奥迹」时，我们认识到奥秘的权威。 When we hear mysterium fide, we recognize the authority of mystery.
我们没有任何哲学的、历史的、科学的、逻辑的证明来证明这一切。 We don't have any philosophical, historical, scientific, logical proof of any of this.
信仰的奥秘超出了我们证明的能力。 The mysteries of faith exceed our capacity to prove.
信仰的奥秘不受理性论证的支配，否则它们就不会是信仰的奥秘了。 The mysteries of faith are not subject to rational demonstration, or they wouldn't be mysteries of faith.
我们可以展示相信是多么合理。 We can show how reasonable it is to believe.
我们可以为作出信仰行为提供理性的理由，但我们对之作出信 仰行为的是那些如此超越世界又如此存在于世界的神圣奥秘。 We can provide a rational justification for making the act of faith, but what we make the act of faith to are sacred mysteries that are so out of this world and yet so in this world.
所以神的超越性，你知道，或者如我们通常在传统中所说的， 类比的概念，因为类比指向造物主和受造物之间的相似性。 And so the otherness of God, you know, or as we usually speak of in the tradition, the notion of analogy, because analogy points to the similarity between the Creator and the creature.
神是父亲；我是一个父亲。 God is a Father; I'm a father.
但他比我更是父亲，而不是更少。 But He's more of a Father than I am, not less.
所以我们必须指出不同之处，因为他的父性确实与我的父性有着无法估量的不同。 And so we have to point to the dissimilarity because indeed His fatherhood is inestimably more different than my fatherhood.
所以你必须进入奥秘。 And so you have to then enter into the mystery.
好的，那么神的父性与物理的、肉体的、性的、生殖器官的没有关系。 Okay, then divine fatherhood has nothing to do with the physical, the corporeal, the sexual, the genital.
这是神在成为我们的创造者之前，他永恒是谁的现实。 This is the reality of who God eternally is before He is becoming our Creator.
三位一体是临在的；第二位格已经成为人。 And the Trinity is present; the Second Person has become man.
他现在用他自己神化的人性喂养我们。 He's now feeding us with His own divinized humanity.
你知道，当我们的心燃烧时，我们的大脑应该爆炸。 You know, our brains ought to be exploding as our hearts are combusting.
我要说，这在特殊形式中以稍微更高的频率和强度临到我，在那里我能够冥想和默观 ，使自己对神圣奥秘陌生化，然后凝视这一切，说，哦，天哪，这是地上的天堂。 And I would say that this comes to me with slightly greater frequency and intensity in the extraordinary form, where I'm able to meditate and contemplate and defamiliarize myself with the sacred mysteries, and then stare at this and say, oh my goodness, this is heaven on earth.
这是神性进入人性。 This is divinity entering humanity.
这是永恒进入时间。 This is eternity entering time.
旧皮袋承受不了新酒。 The old wineskins can't bear the new wine.
这太令人惊叹了。 It is so amazing.
是的，太棒了！ Yes, wonderful!
我确信你知道，你先前提到的，我们中的任何人相信这一点真是令人惊叹。 And I'm sure you know, you mentioned earlier it's amazing any of us believe this.
但你不会说31%的公教徒相信真实临在不是一个全垒打。 But you wouldn't say 31% of Catholics believing in the Real Presence isn't a home run.
你知道，我们都应该相信这一点。 You know, we should all believe this.
我也听你在其他地方说过，我想这是在马特·弗 雷德的节目上，信仰是被感染的多于被教导的。 And I've heard you also say elsewhere, that I think this is on Matt Fred's show, that the faith is more caught than taught.
我们纪录片的战斗口号是「祈祷规则即信仰规则」（Le x Orandi, Lex Credendi）。 And our battle cry here for our documentary is Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi.
如果人们能够认识到，看到，那些将耶稣视为圣体之王的礼仪，它会逐渐影响下去。 That if people could just recognize, see, liturgy that treats Jesus like a Eucharistic King, it's going to trickle down.
它是被感染的，对吧？ It's caught, right?
对，你知道，顺便说一下，我想说，你知道，在节目开始前我们一直 在讨论139分钟有一个硬性的结束时间。实际上比这个更灵活。 Right, you know, by the way, I want to say that, you know, we have been discussing before the show began that there was a hard and fast ending at 139. It's softer than that.
好的，如果你愿意的话，让我们再继续五到十分钟。 Okay, so let's go another five or ten, if you would be so gracious.
是的，既然如此，我们就做两个小时吧。 Yeah, let's just go two hours while we're at it.
嗯，你提到了关于马特·弗雷德的事情。 Well, you mentioned that thing about Matt Fred.
那是什么来着？ What was it again?
你说信仰是被感染的多于被教导的。 You said that faith is more caught than taught.
是的，祈祷规则，敬拜规则，信仰规则。 Yeah, lex arundi, lex verandi, lex credendi.
还有生活规则，对吧？ And lex vivendi too, right?
因为当我们活出信仰时，我们使它更具传染力。 Because when we live the faith, we make it more contagious.
我要说，信仰法则源自于敬拜法则，耶稣说「你们要 这样做」，先于他说「把这记下来」，你知道吗？ And I would say that the law of faith is derived from the law of worship that Jesus says, Do this, before he says, Write this, you know?
所以，你知道，祈祷法则，敬拜法则，祈祷规则，你知道吗？ And so, you know, the law of prayer, the law of worship, the lex orandi, you know?
然后，当然，我们知道我们所信的，但事实上，圣餐甚至先于信经而存在。 And then, of course, we know what we believe, but in fact, the Eucharist even precedes the Creed.
但基督的生命、他的死亡和复活某种程度上是所有这一切的框架。 But the life of Christ and his death and resurrection is sort of the frame in which all of this.
我为什么要说这个？ Why am I saying this?
因为我确信，如果我们活出圣餐圣事的恩典，如果我们活出一台弥撒 的恩典，我的意思是，这听起来可能很陈词滥调，但一台弥撒中有足 够的恩典，即使是常规形式，也能将罪人转变为圣人，并皈依世界。 Because I'm convinced that if we live the grace of the sacrament of the Holy Eucharist, if we live the grace of one Mass, I mean, it's going to sound cliché, but there's enough grace in one Mass, even if it's the ordinary form, to transform sinners into saints and to convert the world.
所以我们必须更多地汲取它。 And so we've got to tap into it more.
但我也要说，这对所有七件圣事都是真实的。 But I would also say that this is true for all seven sacraments.
几年前我写了一本书，名为《第一社会：婚姻圣事与社会秩序的恢复》，其中我引用了一位 杰出的耶稣会神学家在我第一学期，我在马凯特的博士课程的第一门课中随口说的一句话。 I wrote a book a couple of years ago called The First Society: The Sacrament of Matrimony and the Restoration of the Social Order, where I referenced a throwaway line that was tossed out by a brilliant Jesuit theologian in my first semester, my first course in the doctoral program there at Marquette.
我们当时正在讨论理查德·约翰·诺伊豪斯的《赤裸的公共广场》。 We were discussing The Naked Public Square by Richard John Neuhaus.
他当时仍是路德宗信徒。 He was still a Lutheran at that point.
宗教在美国政治的公共领域中应该扮演多大的角色？ And how much of a role does religion have to play in the public square in American politics?
而基思神父只是抛出这样一句话，你知道，如果公教徒仅仅是活 出婚姻圣事的恩典一代人的时间，结果将是一种转变了的文化。 And Father Keith just threw out this line, you know, that if Catholics simply live the grace of the sacrament of matrimony for one generation, the result would be a transformed culture.
结果将是一个基督教的，一个公教的社会。 The result would be a Christian, a Catholic society.
哦，但我离题了，你知道，然后他回到了他的讲稿。 Oh, but I digress, you know, and he went back to his lecture notes.
但我无法放弃那个离题，因为我确信圣事的原则，圣事性的原则，特别是七 件圣事，延伸了道成肉身的奥秘、现实和力量，使得成为肉身的基督不仅仅 是在天上成为肉身，藏在没有人能够对他下手并再次将他钉死的地方。 But I just couldn't leave that digression because I am convinced that the principle of the sacrament, the principle of sacramentality, the seven sacraments in particular, extend the mystery, the reality, the power of the Incarnation so that the incarnate Christ is not just incarnate up in heaven, tucked away where no one can lay hands on him and crucify him again.
但成为肉身的基督是totus Christus，整体的基督。 But the incarnate Christ is the totus Christus, the whole Christ.
他是整个奥体的头。 He is the head of the whole mystical body.
但我们领受基督的身体；我们成为基督的身体。 But we receive the body of Christ; we become the body of Christ.
不仅仅是你能看到和听到的我的嘴和眼睛是我的身体。 More than my mouth and my eyes that you can see and hear are my body.
我的意思是，我的身体是会死的；这些肢体是难以驾驭的。 I mean, my body is mortal; these members are unruly.
但我们作为基督身体的肢体被实现，作为一个奥秘，但作 为一个形而上的现实，构成一种新的创造，三一宇宙。 But we are actualized as members of Christ's body as a mystery, but as a metaphysical reality, and constituting a kind of new creation, the tri-universe.
而且你知道，如果我们只是更多地默想这些奥秘，享受它们，庆祝它们，并以更大 的喜乐和热忱传达它们，你知道，我想起七岁时，我把伯特利公园墓地点着了。 And you know, if we would just contemplate these mysteries more and enjoy them and celebrate them and communicate them with greater joy and zeal, you know, I'm reminded when I was seven years old, I set the Bethel Park Cemetery on fire.
我不知道我的父母知道，但他们后来告诉我他们知道。 I didn't know my parents knew, but they told me later they did.
多年后我妈妈告诉我，「我们一直知道你是个纵火狂。」 And my mom told me years later, We always knew you were a pyromaniac.
我说，「好吧，我现在已经不是了。」 And I'm like, Well, I'm over it now.
她说，「不，你仍然是。」 She says, No, you're not.
「你只是想在灵性上点燃世界。」 You're just wanting to set the world on fire spiritually.
我只是觉得基督想要招募很多人，灵性的、神学的、礼仪的纵火者。 And I just feel like Christ wants to recruit a whole lot of people, spiritual, theological, liturgical pyros.
我的意思是，我们需要允许他点燃我们的心。 I mean, we need to allow him to set our hearts ablaze.
但我们必须点燃这个冰冷、黑暗的世界。 But we've got to set this cold, dark world on fire.
这不是辛辣的宗教修辞。 This isn't spicy hot religious rhetoric.
如果我们在使徒信经中宣认的有一半是真的，这个堕落就像二加二等于四一样。 If half of what we profess is true in the Apostles' Creed, this fall is like two plus two equals four.
所以我们可能会陷入各种礼仪政治和论战中，这 些有它的时间和地点，因为这些事情很重要。 And so we can get bogged down in all kinds of liturgical politics and polemics, and there's a place and a time for that because these things matter.
但还有其他事情重要性不是更少，而是更多。 But there are other things that matter not less, but more.
耶稣流血、死亡并复活以拯救后现代主义者、无神论者、女权主义者，以及黑人、白人和介 于两者之间的所有人，你知道，如果我们想成为圣人，这必须成为一种吞噬一切的热情。 And the fact that Jesus bled and died and rose again to save postmodernists, atheists, feminists, as well as black, white, and everything in between, you know, this has got to become a consuming passion if we want to be saints.
这是我们在地球上的唯一目的。 And that is the only purpose why we're on the planet.
所以我不确定我到底对马特·弗雷德说了什么，但我记得我们两 个人只是进入了一个真正喜乐的时刻，分享这种热忱的意义。 So I'm not sure exactly what I said to Matt Fred, but I remember the two of us just entering into a really joyful time share of this zeal of what it means.
我的意思是，我难以相信我是一个公教徒。 I mean, I can't believe I'm a Catholic.
我被一个人寻找。 I was sought by one.
你知道，保罗在罗马书11章中说，你知道，「那不寻找我的，我叫他们遇见。」 You know, Paul says this in Romans 11, you know, I was found by those who weren't seeking me.
你知道，我被天国的猎犬找到，他点燃了我。 You know, I was found by the hound of heaven, and he set me on fire.
但他没有让那火焰减弱或熄灭。 But he hasn't allowed that blaze to go down or out.
我只是想，有时候，每天早晨，我必须允许他再次点 燃我，因为我醒来时冰冷黑暗，你知道，需要皈依。 And I just think at times, each morning, I have to allow him to set me on fire again because I wake up cold and dark and just, you know, in need of conversion.
但卡梅伦，我只是，是的，我应该闭嘴了。 But Cameron, I just, yeah, I should just shut up.
你知道，这就是我四个月不在教室里时发生的事情。 You know, this is what happens when I'm not in the classroom for four months.
它像熔岩一样积累，你知道，然后它喷发出来， 你知道，通常像消防栓一样，但感觉更像火山。 It gets backed up like so much lava, you know, and then it comes out, you know, usually like a fire hydrant, but it feels more like a volcano.
我可以整天这样做。 I could do this all day.
我们收到了一些问题。 We have some questions that came in.
对于所有提交问题的人，非常感谢。 For everyone out there who submitted questions, thank you so much.
我们没有时间回答所有问题；我们就按照它们到我这里的顺序来处理。 We don't have time to get to all of them; we'll just take them as they come into me.
这是来自阿曼达的问题：汉恩博士在写《羔羊的晚餐》时已经发现了特殊形式吗？ So, this is from Amanda: Had Dr. Hahn already discovered the extraordinary form when he wrote The Lamb's Supper?
这是问题的第一部分。 That's the first part of the question.
是的，我的意思是，我可以真正回答这个问题，阿曼达，通过回到开始。 Yeah, I mean, I could really answer the question, Amanda, by going back to the beginning.
因为，你知道，在我成为公教徒之前，当我积累了大量的公教神学、礼仪 、历史、哲学的书籍时，我已经成为了托马斯主义者，还有其他的身份。 Because, you know, before I became a Catholic, when I was accumulating a vast library of Catholic theology, liturgy, history, philosophy, I'd already become a Thomist and other things too.
所以我正在发现传统，活的传统，那尤其是关于礼仪的。 So I was discovering the tradition, the living tradition, and that was especially about the liturgy.
所以通过那本破旧的圣约瑟弥撒经书，我意识到敬拜的崇敬 、敬畏、奇妙、超越、圣洁，以及它是多么充满圣经内容。 So with that little beat-up copy of the St. Joseph Missal, I realized the reverence, the awe, the wonder, the transcendence, the holiness of worship and how scripturally saturated it is.
你知道，但神，以他的慈悲，在85年末我第一次参加弥撒时适应了我，你 知道，当时是一位耶稣会士主持，你知道，那是在地下小堂的平日弥撒，你 知道，这对我作为一个福音派新教徒来说，你知道，调查起来更容易。 You know, but God, in His mercy, accommodated Himself to me at my first Mass in late '85, you know, when I was a Jesuit who was presiding, you know, and it was in a basement chapel for a weekday Mass, you know, which was easier for me as an evangelical Protestant, you know, investigating.
你知道，但到那时我在理论上知道有这种更长、更传统的 弥撒，可以追溯到遄达，你知道，然后我经历了新礼仪。 You know, but by then I knew in theory that there was this longer, more traditional Mass that went back to Trent, you know, and then I experienced the Novus Ordo.
但对我来说，它从来不是，你知道，非此即彼；而是两者兼顾。 But for me, it was never, you know, either/or; it was both/and.
所以当我在91年在纽约经历第一次三一弥撒时，我已经在知识上为此做 好了准备，我认识到这真的就是我在第一次去弥撒之前就爱上的东西。 And so by the time I did experience the first Trinity Mass in New York in '91, I had been intellectually prepared for that, and I recognized that this is really what it is that I fell in love with before I even went to Mass for the first time.
现在我知道有很多人正在观看或将会观看这个，他们可能会感到灰心，因为 他们附近没有一个真正传统的新礼仪堂区，按照应该庆祝的方式庆祝弥撒。 Now I know there's a lot of people watching or who will watch this, and they might be discouraged because they don't have a really traditional Novus Ordo parish near them that's celebrating the Mass as it's supposed to be celebrated.
我认为今天很多公教徒只是疲倦了，他们没有经历 能激发他们或显示你所谈论的神的超越性的礼仪。 I think a lot of Catholics today are just weary, and they don't experience a liturgy that fires them up or that shows the transcendence of God like you're talking about.
所以如果你正在对只听说过拉丁弥撒的人说话，也许他们去过一两次，也许它不适合 我——只是一个还没有真正去参加传统拉丁弥撒的人——你会说什么来邀请他们？ So if you're talking to someone who has only heard about the Latin Mass, maybe they've been once or twice, maybe it's not for me—just someone who hasn't yet gone really to the traditional Latin Mass—what would you say to invite them?
你会说什么来让他们迈过那个门槛？ What would you say to get them through the door?
这是个很好的问题，卡梅伦。 That's a great question, Cameron.
当你问这个问题时，我被拉回到大约一个月前，因为几乎正好是一 个月前，我们的儿子杰里迈亚被史都本维的主教祝圣为过渡执事。 As you were asking it, I was thrown back about a month because it was almost exactly a month ago that our son, Jeremiah, was ordained to the transitional diaconate by the Bishop of Steubenville.
你知道，这是一件大事，尤其是在新冠疫情之后，我们刚刚第一次重新回到正轨。 You know, it's a big thing, especially after COVID, where we're just kind of back in the saddle for the first time.
你知道，那时我们才刚刚回来，我想是从五旬节开始的。 You know, and we've only been back at that point, I think, since Pentecost.
所以我们很紧张，我们有家人从外地赶来。 And so we were nervous, and we were having family come in from out of town.
所以，你知道，会是什么样子呢？ And so, you know, what's it going to be like?
会怎么进行？ How's it going to go?
当我到达堂区，提前几分钟到那里，祈祷，做好准备，你知道，突然我意识到 直到那一刻我一直是，你知道，在一条独木舟上用桨逆流划行，这真的很难。 And when I got to the parish, and I got there a few minutes before, prayed, got ready, you know, suddenly I realized up until that moment I was, you know, in a canoe with a paddle, rowing upstream, and it was just really hard.
这不仅仅是对我，而是对我们所有家人和所有其他经历了 冠状病毒的人，你知道，与圣事保持距离和所有那些。 And it wasn't just for me, but it was for all of our family and everybody else coming through the coronavirus, you know, being, you know, distanced from the sacraments and all of that.
但那是一个真正超自然的恩宠时刻。 But it was a really supernatural moment of grace.
它持续了一个多小时，我突然感觉，你知道，我软弱的肉体 变成了一个被升起的帆，圣灵的风把我吹过整个祝圣弥撒。 It lasted more than an hour, where suddenly I just felt like, you know, my weak flesh became like a sail that was hoisted, and the wind of the Spirit blew me through that entire Mass of ordination.
我被提醒，哇，圣事的客观现实，它们自身的有效性，不取决于我产生 温暖、模糊、神圣的感受，以及感到崇敬和超越性和所有那类东西。 And I was reminded that, wow, the objective reality of the sacraments, their own validity, does not depend upon me conjuring up warm, fuzzy, sacred feelings and feeling reverent and transcendence and all of that sort of thing.
圣灵的风使用圣事不仅带我们度过一天，还带我们进入天堂。 The wind of the Holy Spirit uses the sacraments to carry us not only through the day but into heaven.
所以我要说：在经历了半个多世纪的礼仪争战后，我们都感到的那种疲惫。 And so I would say this: that weariness that we all feel after going through more than a half a century of liturgical warfare.
让我打断一下，表明一下我自己的立场，因为我对礼仪 政治有一种厌恶——事实上，我刻意培养这种厌恶。 And let me just interrupt this to kind of indicate my own position because I have an aversion—in fact, I cultivate an aversion—to liturgical politics.
我真的尽量远离这些。 I really try to stay out of them.
我的一个朋友是这样说的，我喜欢附和他：你知道我真正关心注意或关注的 唯一礼仪滥用是我领受圣餐的方式，因为，主啊，我不配你到我心里来。 A friend of mine puts it this way, and I like to echo him: you know that the only liturgical abuse that I really care to notice or pay attention to is my reception of Holy Communion, because, Lord, I am not worthy to receive you under my roof.
但我要说的是：一方面，我所经历的和我在《羔羊的晚餐》这本书 中所写的是这种压倒性的神的客观性，天上的，天使的，超越的进 入我们自己软弱的人类内在，你知道，有限和无限的相互渗透。 But the thing that I would say is this: that on the one hand, what I experienced and what I wrote into the book called The Lamb's Supper is this overwhelming objectivity of the divine, the heavenly, the angelic, the transcendent entering into our own weak human imminence, you know, and the inner penetration of the finite and the infinite.
这几乎好得令人难以置信，但这就是羔羊的婚宴。 It's almost too good to be true, but it is the marriage supper of the Lamb.
你知道，天使和圣人环绕着我们。 You know, the angels and the saints surround us.
我们进入他们的敬拜，他们的歌曲，他们的祈祷成为我们的，最 特别的是我们分享我们君王大祭司，神的羔羊的那一次祭献。 We enter into their worship, their songs, their prayers become ours, and most especially we share in the one sacrifice of our royal high priest, the Lamb of God.
而且，这再一次，这不仅仅是公教谈话要点。 And this, again, this is more than Catholic talking points.
这不仅仅是传统教义。 This is more than just traditional doctrine.
这是每次都存在的现实，无论我是否知道，无论 我是否分心，无论我是，你知道，半醒状态。 This is the reality that is there every time, whether I know it or not, whether I'm distracted, whether I'm, you know, half awake.
因此，有一个源自这个现实的规范，如果这是在每一台弥撒中发生的现 实，那么这应该如何影响我穿着的方式，我们准备庆祝弥撒的方式，当 涉及到家具，当涉及到祭服，当涉及到音乐，当涉及到使用乳香？ And so there is the norm that flows from the reality that if this is the reality that is occurring in every single Mass, then how should that affect the way I dress, the way we prepare to celebrate the Mass when it comes to the furniture, when it comes to the vestments, when it comes to the music, when it comes to the use of incense?
我的意思是，如果约翰在天堂中看到并描述了乳香，你知道，我们使用它是多么合适，还有 美丽的祭服和所有其他神圣的装饰，只是为了唤起我们的记忆，只是为了说，我们在哪里？ I mean, if John is seeing and describing incense in heaven, you know, how fitting it would be for us to utilize that, as well as beautiful vestments and all of the other holy trappings, just to kind of jog our memory, just to say, where are we?
我们与谁在一起？ Who are we with?
我们在做什么？ What are we doing?
无论我是否知道，这是天使和圣人的天上礼仪。 Whether I know it or not, this is the heavenly liturgy of angels and saints.
所以客观现实应该是规范所有礼仪规范的规范。 And so the objective reality ought to be the norm that norms all of the liturgical norms.
忘掉政治吧。 And just forget politics.
让我们超越争论，你知道，无论它们多么重要。 Let's transcend the debates, you know, as important as they might be.
让我们只关注包围我们的神圣奥秘的压倒性现实，你知道，然后说：主啊，我们疲惫了。 Let's just focus on the overwhelming reality of the sacred mysteries that envelop us, you know, and then say this: Lord, we're weary.
你知道，如果我去参加传统弥撒，出来后，我有时仍然 疲惫，因为这是泪谷，在这之后，我们的流放，对吧？ You know, and if I go to a traditional Mass and I come out, I'm still sometimes weary because this is a valley of tears after this, our exile, right?
所以如果我们去参加最令人惊叹的大弥撒，我们仍然在地球上。 And so if we go to the most amazing high Mass, we're still on earth.
我们还没有到天堂。 We're not yet in heaven.
我认为，它是基于在我们敬拜中真实临在的超越现实而更规范地构建的。 It is, I think, structured more normatively on the basis of the transcendent realities that are really present in our worship.
但如果我们去参加一场令人惊叹、美丽、肃穆的教宗大弥撒，或者我们去参加有 吉他的弥撒，或者我们在战场上，弥撒有效地在吉普车后部举行，你猜怎么着？ But if we're going to an amazing, beautiful, reverent pontifical high Mass, or if we're going to a Mass where there are guitars, or if we're on the battlefield and the Mass is celebrated validly on the back of a Jeep, guess what?
天地合一。 Heaven and earth are united.
天使和圣人都在场。 The angels and the saints are present.
正如那个规范的客观现实应该引导我们如何准备弥撒，如何着装，我们想要融入什么音乐， 以及其他一切，同样，弥撒的有效性应该帮助我们认识到我们处在一片干旱疲惫的土地上。 And so just as the objective reality of that norm ought to be what guides us in terms of how we prepare for Mass, how we dress, what music we want to incorporate, and everything else, likewise the validity of the Mass ought to help us recognize that we are in a dry and weary land.
即使我们离开拉丁弥撒，它很美丽、令人振奋和所有那些，所以我们都共同感受到 的疲惫，你知道，基于过去50年，基于过去五个月的新冠和，你知道，圣事和社 交距离，你知道，我认为我们应该做的是去到神面前，真正倾诉我们的心声说，神 啊，恕我直言，我爱你，我崇敬你，请不要误解，但你为什么离弃了我们？ Even if we come away from a Latin Mass and it's been beautiful and uplifting and all of that, so the weariness that we all share, you know, on the basis of the last 50 years, on the basis of the last five months of COVID and, you know, sacramental and social distancing, you know, I think what we ought to do is go to God and really vent our hearts and say, God, with all due respect, I love you, I revere you, don't take this the wrong way, but why have you forsaken us?
你知道，为什么你允许我感到如此干燥、干渴，离你如此遥远？ You know, why do you allow me to feel so dry and parched and so far from you?
我们在堂区的地下小堂没有朝拜，你知道，但当我们有的时候， 我常常去到他面前说，你知道，我相信并宣认你的真实临在，但 我需要承认我的实际缺席，因为虽然我在这里，我已经分心了。 We don't have adoration in our basement chapel at our parish, you know, but when we did, I used to go to Him and say, You know, I believe and I profess your real presence, but I need to confess my virtual absence because though I'm here, I'm already distracted.
所以我只是认为，发自一颗真诚、诚实，但谦卑和渴望天堂的心的呼喊，不仅仅 是为了拉丁语，不仅仅是为了乳香，不仅仅是为了1570年或1962年的， 你知道，我们应该满足于任何形式的有效弥撒，因为这已经超过我们应得的。 And so I just think a cry from a heart that is sincere, honest, but humble and hungering for heaven and not just for Latin, not just for incense, not just for the 1570 or the 1962, you know, we ought to be content with a valid Mass in whatever form because it's more than we deserve.
但我们不应该真正满足，直到我们回到天堂的家， 在圣人和天使的共融中注视着我们父亲的面容。 But we ought to not really be content until we're home in heaven, beholding the face of our Father there in the communion of saints and angels.
我认为这就是作为公教徒的意义，这就是成为三 日灵恩派、传统派、所有这些的意义，你知道。 I think this is what it means to be Catholic, and this is what it means to be Tridicostal, Tradi-matic, all of the above, you know.
「乐传」如何？ How about Glad Trad?
是的，没错。 Yeah, exactly.
乐观的传统派。 Glad, Trad.
顺便问一下，这个词是你创造的吗？ Did you coin that term, by the way?
我不知道是谁创造的，但我——你偷的？ I don't know who coined it, but I – you stole it?
我可能偷了。 I might have.
我所知道的是，我的许多自称为「激传」的传统主义朋友实际上是「怒传」。 All I know is that so many of my traditionalist friends who call themselves Rad Trads were really mad Trads.
他们很愤怒，相信我，当人们谈论他们愤怒的事情时，我理解。 They were angry, and believe me, I get it when people are talking about the things that they're angry about.
我想说，暂停！ I want to say, Time out!
我是德国人；你不知道什么是脾气。 I'm German; you don't know what a temper is.
你知道，我的德国同胞们知道。 You know, my fellow Krauts do.
但无论如何，有那么多事情可以愤怒，那么多事情可 以悲伤，那么多事情可以恐惧，然而，不要害怕。 But in any case, there are so many things to be angry about, so many things to be sad about, so many things to be scared about, and yet, be not afraid.
有那么多更大更好的事物，那就是神圣奥秘。 There are so many bigger and better things that are sacred mysteries.
坏消息已经比任何人预期的要糟糕得多，但好消息不仅比 坏消息更大；好消息远远超过我们迄今为止所认识到的。 The bad news has gotten much worse than anybody expected, but the good news is not only greater than the bad news; the good news is immeasurably greater than what we have realized so far.
所以尽可能找到更多的开关，尽可能打开更多的灯，因为公教福音给我们带来更多好消息。 So find as many switches as you can, turn on as many lights as you can, because the Catholic Gospel presents us with more good news.
你知道那十二条构成使徒信经的条款，来自第一世纪，第一代的信仰规则吗？ You know those twelve articles that constitute the Apostles' Creed, the rule of faith from the very first century, the first generation?
我的意思是，那些可能看起来像我们定期宣认的尘土斑斑的石头，但那 些是宝贵的宝石，像大祭司进入神面前时胸牌上佩戴的十二颗宝石。 I mean, those can seem like dusty stones that we profess on a regular basis, but those are precious gems, like the twelve precious gems that the high priest wore on the breastplate of righteousness entering into the presence of God.
我们对神是宝贵的；他对我们尤其宝贵。 We're precious to God; He is especially precious to us.
但这些神圣奥秘是如此强大，它们引发喜乐。 But these sacred mysteries are so powerful, and they elicit joy.
我天性不是乐观主义者；我是悲观主义者。 I'm not an optimist by nature; I'm a pessimist.
但我告诉你公教信仰给我们的是一种超越单纯乐 观主义和更新超自然希望德行的现实主义能力。 But I tell you what Catholic faith gives us is a capacity to be a realist that surpasses mere optimism and renews the supernatural virtue of hope.
神想要更新我们，比我们希望他这样做的还要多。 God wants to renew us more than we want Him to.
神想要转变我们的文化和我们的礼仪，比我们希望他这样做的还要多。 God wants to transform our culture and our liturgy more than we want Him to.
我认为我们越是像感恩的孩子一样谦卑自己，感谢他为我们所经 历的每一台有效的弥撒和所有其他圣事，他就越会向我们显示他 准备好、愿意并且能够转变我们，并使用我们去转变他人。 And I think the more we humble ourselves as grateful children and thank Him for every valid Mass we've ever experienced and all the other sacraments too, the more ready, willing, and able He's going to show us that He is to transform us and to use us to transform others as well.
只是说说，我对这些东西没有强烈的感受。 Just saying, I don't feel strongly about any of this stuff.
令人难以置信。 Incredible.
谢谢你。 Thank you.
我们的时间到了。 We're at the end of our time.
我只想简短宣布一下，我们已经筹集了将近45,000美元。 I just want to give a short announcement that we're almost at $45,000 raised.
我们已经筹集了57%。 We're at 57% raised.
我们有一个匹配捐赠，最高可达10,000美元，截止到周日午 夜，所以我们还有大约6,000美元才能完全利用这个机会。 We have a matching gift for up to $10,000 through Sunday evening at midnight, and so we have about $6,000 left to make complete full use of that.
我们会在节目备注中包含斯科特·汉恩博士的最新著作，所以你可以在那里找到它。 We'll include Dr. Scott Hahn's most recent book in the show notes, so you can find it there.
再次说明，它叫做《期待死亡：基督徒理解的死 亡与身体复活》，作者是斯科特·汉恩博士。 Again, it's called Hope to Die: The Christian Meaning of Death and the Resurrection of the Body by Dr. Scott Hahn.
明天再做这个吧。 Let's do this tomorrow.
我很乐意，我也应该提一下，作为一个脚注或附带说明，《期待 死亡》这本书也谈到了对神圣而崇敬的公教埋葬习俗和传统的恢 复，这些习俗和传统甚至对一些传统主义者来说都已经失传了。 I would love to, I should mention too, just as a footnote or a parenthetical aside, that the book Hope to Die also addresses the retrieval of the sacred and reverent Catholic burial customs and the traditions that are lost even to some traditionalists.
我不针对火化进行辩论，但我说明了教会为什么允许它。 I don't polemicize against cremation, but I show why the Church permits it.
它作为一种让步而容忍火化，但它真正鼓励的是重 新发现神圣的习俗、圣地以及与之相关的一切。 It tolerates it as a concession, but what it really encourages is this rediscovery of the sacred customs and holy ground and everything else that goes with it.
所以，我认为这也是行动胜于言语的一部分，当涉及到传达信仰及其完整性和丰富性时。 And so, I think this is also part of where actions speak louder than words when it comes to communicating the faith and its integrity and plenitude.
是的，你在这方面做了很多采访。 Yeah, and you've done plenty of interviews on that.
我们也会在备注中链接到这些内容，因为你详细讲解了，我认为每个人都应该拿起这本书。 We'll link to those as well in the notes because you go into detail, and I think everyone should pick up this book.
它很精彩。 It's incredible.
所以，斯科特·汉恩博士，再次感谢你，我就不打扰你了。 So, Dr. Scott Hahn, thank you again, and I'll let you go.
感谢你抽出时间。 Thanks for your time.
太棒了。 Incredible.
我们真的很感谢你。 We really appreciate you.
不客气。 You're welcome.
谢谢你。 Thank you.
好的，平安。 All right, peace.