哇，好的，神父。 Wow, all right, Father.
所以，你知道，我最近说过这将是一次小教堂的参观，对吧？ So, you know, recently I said that this was going to be a tour of the chapel, right?
但你告诉我这个词有点太西方拉丁的感觉。 But you told me that that's a bit too Latin of a word.
那么，我们应该怎么称呼这种空间呢？ So, what do we call this kind of space?
实际上，我们称之为通常所说的教会。 We call it, actually, what commonly is referred to maybe as the Church.
我们称之为圣殿，因为我们仍然强调教会是我们自己；是基督的身体，而不是一座建筑。 We call it the Temple because we're still emphasizing the fact that the Church is us; it's the Body of Christ, not a building.
所以，为了区分，我们使用圣殿这个词，因为它在某种程度上是神的居所。 So, to kind of designate, we use the word Temple because that's kind of the dwelling place of God in a way.
当然，也因为我们也是圣灵的圣殿。 Also, because we're also the Temple of the Holy Spirit, of course.
当我们带你参观这个美丽的空间时，你会注意到的 一件事，特别是在至圣所，它的设置很像会幕。 And one of the things you'll notice as we get to show you this beautiful space, especially in the Holy of Holies, it's very much set up kind of like the Tent of the Meeting.
我想你可以说，我们那里有很多与《出埃及记》中原始会幕相类似的东西。 There's a lot of analogous, I suppose you could say, things with the original tent in Exodus that we have back there.
当然。 Sure.
假设有人第一次参加圣体礼，对吧？ And let's say somebody is going to Divine Liturgy for the first time, right?
首先，什么是圣体礼？ First off, what is Divine Liturgy?
你们在这里称之为弥撒，还是叫什么？ Do you guys call it Mass here, or what do you call it?
对，当然，你知道你们称之为弥撒是源自拉丁语的结束语，对吧？ Right, of course, you know that you call it Mass from the ending in Latin, right?
Et Omnis Est. Et Omnis Est.
我们不这么说；我们也不使用拉丁语，对吧？ We don't say it; we don't use Latin either, right?
所以，呃，不，我们称之为圣体礼。 So, uh, no, we call it Divine Liturgy.
我们从一开始就是这么称呼的。 We've called that from the beginning.
当然，你知道你们也称之为礼仪；只是不那么常用，是常见的用法，对吧？ Of course, you know you guys call it Liturgy too; it's just not the common, it's common of usage, right?
所以，希腊语中的Liturgia实际上意味着为人民所做的工作。 So, Liturgia in Greek means really the work for the people.
通常，你会听到它被翻译为人民的工作，但我认为我听过的更好的翻译是 为人民所做的工作，因为它实际上是神为我们工作并将自己给予我们。 Oftentimes, you hear it translated as the work of the people, but I think a better translation that I've heard is work for the people because it's really God working for us and giving Himself to us.
当然，然后我们也在工作。 And, of course, we're then working too.
我想我们东方教会使用的这个重要词汇叫做协同效应， 它来自希腊语sunergon，意思是一起工作。 I guess this great word that we use in the Eastern Church called synergy comes from the Greek sunergon, to work with.
所以这是我们与神一起工作以达到我们自己的成圣。 So it's us working with God to our own sanctification.
所以我们非常强调的一件事，也是东西方之间的区 别，不是本质上的差异，因为我们有相同的圣事。 And so one of the things that we very much stress, and really kind of the difference is oftentimes between East and West, isn't so much a difference in kind because we have all the same sacraments.
当然，我们用不同的词来称呼它们，因为我们使 用希腊语或者，你知道，源自希腊语的词汇。 We call them a different word, of course, because we use Greek or, you know, derived from Greek.
这是重点强调的差异。 It's a difference in emphasis.
所以其中一件事，特别是当我们看这些圣像和不同的 东西时，是这种强调，即礼仪不是回忆过去的事件。 And so one of the things, especially as we look at the icons and the different things, is this emphasis that liturgy doesn't remember past events.
当然，拉丁教会对此也有相同的看法，但事实上，礼仪真正做的是使其临在。 Of course, the Latin Church would believe the same thing about this, but the fact that really what liturgy does is make present.
所以通过参与礼仪，你实际上是临在于神的救恩计划的所有奥秘中，临在于神与天使和 圣人为我们所做的一切奥秘中，这些当然都由圣像来代表，我相信我们会谈到这一点。 So by being in liturgy, you're actually being present to all of the mysteries of the divine economy, all of the mysteries of what God has done for us with the angels and the saints, which, of course, are represented by the icons, which I'm sure we'll talk about.
所以这就是进入圣殿的包围感，这种包围不仅仅是美丽 的事物，而是真正沉浸在这些事物所代表的东西中。 So that's this enveloping by coming into the temple, this enveloping not only in, you know, beautiful things, but it's really embellishment in the things that those things represent.
当然，圣像使那些被代表的人临在，然后，但在礼仪中，神的救恩计划的临在 使我们参与其中，向往天上的礼仪，那唯一的天上礼仪，羔羊的婚宴，对吧？ Of course, the icons make present those who they represent, and then, but then also within the liturgy, the making present of the divine economy so that we participate in that, looking in the heavenly liturgy, the one heavenly liturgy, the wedding feast of the Lamb, right?
那么假设我走进来，对吧，而圣体礼还没开始。 So let's say that I'm walking in, right, and Divine Liturgy hasn't started yet.
也许有一些祈祷正在进行。 Maybe there's some prayers going on.
你知道，通常公教徒，或者我应该说拉丁公教徒，他们会 取圣水，然后画十字架或者屈膝，然后坐下并安静等待。 You know, often Catholics, or Latin Catholics I should say, they'll get the holy water and they'll make the sign of the cross or they'll genuflect and then sit down and appease.
但一般来说，当有人进入圣殿并准备坐下或安顿下来时，他们会先做什么？ But what's generally the first thing that someone would do when they're entering into the temple and they're getting ready to sit down or get settled?
他们会先去看什么？ What's the first thing that they would go to and look at?
所以第一件事，显然当我们进来时你会注意到的第一件事，你看到这 个我们称之为门廊的小空间，拉丁教堂有多个，它代表世界，对吧？ So the first thing, well obviously the first thing you notice when we come in, you see this little space back here we call the narthex, which Latin churches have multiple, which represents the world, right?
而且它有点拥挤。 And it's kind of cramped.
是的，那是古时候慕道者和忏悔者待的地方。 Yeah, that's where the catechumens and penitents stayed of old.
哦对，然后当你越过那个门槛，你就进入彼得的教堂。 Oh right, and then when you enter across that threshold, you enter the church in the park of Peter.
天花板升高；现在你进入了教堂中基督的身体，也就是教堂的中殿。 The ceilings go up; now you're within the body of Christ during the church, the nave.
所以当你进来时，显然墙边有座椅。 And so then as you would come in, obviously there's pews against the walls.
那些座椅是给需要坐下的人准备的。 Those pews are for folks that need to sit.
否则，在东方教会中表示尊敬的姿势是站立祈祷。 Otherwise, the position of standing and reverence in the East is the position of reverence in the East is standing in prayer.
所以再次强调，就像我们说的，有重点的差异，但我们也必须考虑到这些教会，这 些信仰的使徒表达形式，在它们被创立、发展和成长的文化背景下的文化差异。 So again, what like we said, there's difference in emphasis, but we also have to take into account the cultural differences where these churches, these apostolic expressions of the faith, were founded and developed and grew up in that culture where that happened.
文化理解：尊敬意味着什么？ The cultural understanding: what does reverence mean?
我们如何表示尊敬？ How do we show reverence?
我们如何表示忏悔？ How do we show penitence?
我们如何表达这些不同的事情在拉丁西方是不同的，那里 源自罗马牧首区，而在其他四个东方牧首区也是不同的。 How do we show these different things are different in the Latin West, where it grew out of the patriarchate of Rome, and in the other four Eastern patriarchates it was different.
所以我们没有座椅，因为我们站立。 So we don't have pews because we stand.
我们不屈膝；我们通常不跪下，特别是在复活节期间，对吧？ We don't genuflect; we generally don't kneel, especially during the Paschal season, right?
在祝圣时不跪下，因为对我们来说，跪下是一种忏悔行为，而不是一种尊敬的行为。 There is no kneeling at the consecration because for us, kneeling is a penitential act, not an act of reverence.
所以对我们来说，站立和鞠躬是一种尊敬的行为；亲吻是一种尊敬的行为，但不是跪下。 So for us, standing and bowing is an act of reverence; kissing is an act of reverence, but not kneeling.
事实上，尼西亚会议禁止在光明周跪下，因为那时太喜乐了，不适合跪下；我们应该站立。 In fact, the Council of Nicaea forbade kneeling during Bright Week because it's too joyous to be kneeling; we're supposed to be standing.
所以这是一个差异，与西方不同的事情。 So that's a difference, a different thing than the West.
不是说我们不尊敬；只是尊敬以不同的方式表现。 It's not that we're being irreverent; it's just reverence is shown in a different way.
所以你进来，当然你进入中殿。 So you come in, you walk in, you walk in, of course you come into the nave.
你会注意到的第一件事是我们称之为四脚台的东西，它实际上是下面的这个祭台。 The first thing that you'll notice is what we call the tetrapod, which is actually this altar that's below.
因为我们处于复活节期间，从圣周五开始，我们实际上建 立了这个坟墓，在圣周五晚上我们实际上有一个圣像。 Because we're in the Easter season, beginning on Good and Holy Friday, we actually erect this tomb that on Good and Holy Friday night we actually have an icon.
它有布料衬底，但它是基督遗体的圣像，我们用它绕教堂做三次埋葬游行 ，然后带来并将他的遗体放在坟墓中，它一直放在那里直到复活节早晨。 It's on a fabric backing, but it's an icon of the corpse of Christ that we do a burial procession with around the church three times and then bring and lay his corpse in the tomb, and it stayed there until Easter morning.
然后它被移走，放在我们称之为圣桌的祭台上。 And then it's removed and put on the altar we call the Holy Table.
在圣桌上，在一切之下，礼仪一直在基督遗体的这个圣像上举行，直到升天节。 On the Holy Table, underneath everything, the liturgy has been celebrated on this icon of Christ's corpse now until the Ascension.
首先在升天节，他离开；他升天。 First in the Ascension, he goes away; he ascends.
所以这就是为什么这样构造这里。 So that's why this is trying to structure it here.
但你会进来，拜占庭公教徒会做的是进来，在四脚台上通常是那个季节的庆节圣 像，我们称之为基督降地狱的复活节圣像，基督将亚当从坟墓或冥府中拉出来。 But you would come in, what a Byzantine Catholic would do is come in, and on the tetrapod is usually the icon of the feast of that season, the icon of Easter that we call the Harrowing of Hell, Christ pulling Adam up out of the tomb, or out of Hades.
抱歉，有时候如果是夏季的一般时期，对吧，在五旬节后的主日，如 果那个主日没有特定的庆节，这就会像圣路加，教堂的守护圣人。 Sorry, sometimes it can be, if it's a more general time of the summer, right, in the Sundays after Pentecost, if there's no specific feast associated with that Sunday, this would be like St. Luke, the patron of the church.
所以你会上前，你会画十字架并宣誓。 So you'd come up, you'd make the sign of the cross and the vow.
画十字架和宣誓，在你心里，你会说，「神啊，怜悯我这个罪人。」 The sign of the cross and the vow, in your mind, you'd be saying, Oh God, be merciful to me, a sinner.
「神啊，怜悯我这个罪人。」 Oh God, be merciful to me, a sinner.
然后你会亲吻圣像，然后，「神啊，怜悯我这个罪人。」 And then you'd kiss the icon, and then, Oh God, be merciful to me, a sinner.
我在欧洲学到的一种变化是，当你亲吻圣像时，你还要把额头放在上面， 作为一种对神说我想要像这样的方式；我想要顺服或者我想要像这样。 One of the variations that I learned in Europe is that you also then put your forehead, when you kiss the icon, you have to put your forehead on it as a way of like saying to God that I want to be like this; I want to be submissive or I want to be like this.
我们在任何圣像上都不做的一件事是亲吻面部，因为我们知道谁亲吻了耶稣的脸。 One of the things that we never do in any of the icons is kiss the face because we know who kissed Jesus' face.
我不想像他那样。 I don't want to be like him.
这真的很酷；实际上有木制教堂，这些在乌克兰和斯洛 伐克的小村庄里的小木制教堂是不用金属钉子建造的。 And it's really cool; there's actually wooden churches, these little small wooden built churches in these small villages in Ukraine and Slovakia that are built without metal nails.
一切都是木头，他们这样做的原因是因为耶稣是用钢铁，用金属钉在十字架上的。 Everything's wood, and the reason they did it is because Jesus was nailed to the cross with steel, with metal.
是的，为了不接近那样的情况，他们用全木制的 钉子而不是尖钉或金属钉子建造他们的教堂。 Yeah, so as to not be even close to that, they build their churches with all wooden pegs rather than spikes or metal nails.
每一件事都充满意义、细节和丰富性。 Every single thing is filled with meaning and detail and richness.
总是让我惊讶的一件事，我几次来这里参加圣体礼 ，我总是注意到圣像适合庆节日或者当时的节日。 One thing that always amazes me, and there were a few times that I've come to Divine Liturgy here, I always noticed that the icon was suited for the feast day or whatever it was.
所以我想知道，首先，如果你要估计的话，你认为教堂内有多少圣像？ So I'm wondering, first off, how many icons, if you had to do an estimate, do you think you have just in the church itself?
哦哇，是的，大概50或60，也许100。好的，到那时候，你知道，我们有，正如 你所看到的，我们有3、6、7、12、15。你知道，墙上有20或30个这样的。 Oh wow, yeah, probably 50 or 60, maybe 100. Okay, by the time that, you know, we have, as you can see, we have 3, 6, 7, 12, 15. You know, there's 20 or 30 of these on the walls.
然后沿着后面，我们有那些在上层的。 Then along the back, we have those ones that are on this upper level.
我们有基督和诞神女，马利亚，神的母亲的12个主要庆节，对吧？ We have the 12 major feasts of Christ and the Theotokos, Mary, the Mother of God, right?
Theotokos在希腊语中意为神的生育者；这就是为什么我们使用这个名字。 Theotokos means God-bearer in Greek; that's why we use that name.
所以这些是主要的圣像，然后拿下来放在这里。 And so those are the principal icons that then come down and are placed here.
当然，在圣像屏的第二排上面，我们也有同样的东西，对吧？ And then, of course, we have the same thing on the second upper row of the icon screen, right?
那些是主要的圣像，然后是其他的圣像，每个圣像都有特定原 因放在特定位置，如果你想知道，我们当然可以谈论这个。 Those are the principal icons, and then the other ones, which each icon is there in a specific place for a specific reason, which we can sure talk about if you'd like.
嗯，你知道，现在网上的一个热门话题是关于圣像敬奉的问题。 Yeah, well, you know, right now one hot topic online has been the subject of icon veneration.
这很有趣，因为，你知道，你可能会惊讶地听到这个，但第二次尼西亚会议实际上已经成 为一个，我猜，现在很流行的会议，因为人们正在讨论关于圣像敬奉的决定是否有效。 And it's interesting because, you know, you might be surprised to hear this, but Nicaea II has actually become a very, I guess, viral council right now because people are talking about whether or not it was a valid decision regarding icon veneration.
显然，我们刚才看到，你知道，你敬奉圣像。 And obviously, we just saw, you know, you venerate an icon.
我想听听你的看法，作为一个东方公教徒，作为一个敬奉圣像的 人，即使对我这个拉丁公教徒来说，但特别是对你来说，因为圣 像是教会本身和教会生活的重要部分，为什么你们敬奉圣像？ And I guess hearing it from you, right, as an Eastern Catholic, as someone who venerates icons, even for me as a Latin Catholic, but especially for you because icons are such a big part of the Church itself and the life of the Church, why do you venerate icons?
这为什么是可以的？ How is it okay?
这些是有些人可能会有的问题。 These are some questions that somebody might have.
当然，我认为这种争议的来源，如果你读《出埃及记》19和20 章，那里关于冒犯的说法是第二条诫命，不可有任何雕刻的偶像。 Sure, well, and I think that where it kind of flows from, if you read Exodus 19 and 20, where offense claims to be the second, the second commandment is to not have any graven images.
当然，然后神又告诉他们制作基路伯和那些东西，所以这显然是有限定的，对吧？ Of course, then God goes to tell them to make cherubim and those stuff, so that's qualified, obviously, right?
所以在第二次尼西亚会议之前，东罗马帝国的皇帝们对圣像持这种 看法，圣像破坏者们进去摧毁，把所有这些圣像从教堂中撕毁。 And so in that time before Second Nicaea, the emperors of the Holy Roman Empire of the East, right, felt that way about icons, and the iconoclasts went in and destroyed, tore all these icons out of the church.
然而，当会议召开并讨论这个问题时，这真正重要的部分是，这些 不仅仅是漂亮的图画，也不仅仅是神圣艺术；它们是礼仪物品。 When the council convened and talked about it, though, and this is what's really an important part, is that these aren't just pretty pictures, and they aren't just sacred art; they're liturgical objects.
所以它们进入敬拜。 So they enter into worship.
一，二，它们确实是绘制的启示，但它们不仅仅是我的估计。 One, two, they really are painted revelation, but they aren't just simply my estimation.
我可以坐下来说，我想画一个基督降地狱的圣像。 I could sit down and go, I want to paint an icon of the heroine of hell.
我就开始画。 I just start at it.
不，每一个细节都有关于它应该如何放置在那里的规定 ，因为这不是我对它的解释；这是我以某种方式绘画。 No, every one of those things is detailed about how that's supposed to be placed in there because it's not my interpretation of it; it's me painting in a way.
这就像我坐下来复制一样。 It would be like if I sat down to copy.
如果你看本笃会的修士们写作，抄写圣经，他们不会说 ，嗯，你知道，我不喜欢这个词，就放入自己的东西。 If you take the monks of, you know, the Benedictine monks writing, copying the Scriptures, they were going to go, Well, you know, I don't like this word, put in their own thing.
那可能是一个注释，但无论如何，他们都在努力保持准确。 That might be a glossary, but anyway, they're trying to be accurate.
这就是它的意义所在。 That's what that's about.
但实际上，最终，圣像的问题归结为道成肉身的问题。 But really, ultimately, what the question of icons comes down to is the question of the Incarnation.
因为如果神的儿子，三位一体的第二位格，那位具有神性的圣子，取了人性 ，将人性归于自己并行走在我们中间，那么他，圣子，就在物质的本性中。 Because if the Son of God, the second person of the Blessed Trinity, the Son who has divine nature, took on a human nature, assumed a human nature to Himself and walked among us, then He, the Son, was in a material nature.
如果是那样，你可以看见他，你可以触摸他，你可以像我和你说话一样 与他说话，这意味着我可以给你拍照或者我可以画你的肖像，对吧？ And if that, you could see Him, you could touch Him, you could speak to Him as I'm speaking to you, which means I can take a picture of you or I can paint a portrait of you, right?
现在，如果我这样做，我不仅仅是在画某人的人性，因为你不画人性；你画的是人，对吧？ Now, if I did that, I wouldn't just be painting someone's human nature because you don't paint human nature; you paint people, right?
所以如果你想要一个类比，我认为这就证实了第二次尼西亚会议的有效性， 只是因为伦理学家，因为真正关于圣像的问题，是关于聂斯托里的问题。 So if you want an analogy, which I think then validates Second Nicaea, just because of ethicists, because really what the question over icons is, is a question over Nestorius.
因为聂斯托里基本上说马利亚不是诞神女；他说她 是基督之母，试图回避她孕育了他神性的事实。 Because what Nestorius basically said is that Mary wasn't the God-bearer, Theotokos; he said she was a Christotokos, trying to wiggle out of the fact that she bore His divinity.
但逻辑上的人性问题是，对吧，如果你接受这种基督之母的想法，你会怎么做？ But the logical human problem was, right, then what you do if you accept this kind of Christotokos idea?
那么你在同一个肉体中有一个神性位格和一个人性位格，就像我喜欢说的，对吧？ Then you have a divine person and a human person, as I like to say, in the same meat bag, right?
嗯，那就像我；就像你。 Well, that's like me; that's like you.
你有三位一体住在你里面。 You have the Blessed Trinity living within you.
这是两个位格。 It's two persons.
我们不宣认两个；迦克墩会议没有宣认两个位格；他宣认一个位格有两种本性。 We don't profess two; Chalcedon didn't profess two persons; he professed one person of two natures.
所以这里是同样的道理。 So it's the same thing here.
如果我画基督的形象，我不是在画他的人性，因为如果你问，那是谁？ If I paint Christ's image, I'm not painting His human nature because if you ask, Who is that?
嗯，那是圣子；那是神。 Well, that's the Son; that's God.
就像马利亚没有生出一个人性；女人不生人性；她们生的是位格。 Just like Mary didn't give birth to a human nature; women don't give birth to human nature; they give birth to persons.
所以我喜欢问人们，我经常这样做，耶稣是一个人性位格吗？ So I like to ask people, I've done this a lot, is Jesus a human person?
你无法相信有多少人会说，是的，他就是。 You cannot believe the number of people who are like, Yes, here he is.
不，他是一个有两种本性的神性位格，如果你说他 是一个人性位格，那么你立即就成了聂斯托里派。 No, he's a divine person of two natures, and if you say he's a human person, then immediately you're a Nestorian.
这就是你搞错的地方。 That's where you lose it.
所以在以弗所，他在当时仍然存在的某种亚略主义中被定罪，现 在关于第二次尼西亚会议中的这些图像真的发生着同样的事情。 So Ephesus, where he was condemned in the kind of whole still Arian kind of thing that was going on, really the same thing is happening now about these images in Second Nicaea.
所以第二次尼西亚会议真正讨论的不是我们是否可以敬奉这些 东西；它真正是关于希望他们理解这是关于道成肉身的问题。 So really what Second Nicaea was about wasn't about can we venerate these things; it was really about hopefully they understood that it was about the Incarnation.
所以如果这确实代表耶稣，那么，嗯，我应该怎么对待它？ So if this does represent Jesus, then, well, what should I do with it?
那么我可以尊敬它，因为我不是在敬拜或尊敬木头和颜料；那将是偶像崇拜。 Then I can reverence it because I'm not worshipping or reverencing wood and paint; that would be idolatry.
但我所尊敬的是它所代表的东西，通过礼仪，我们给予它 的祝福，使它临在，不是像圣餐那样实质性的，对吧？ But what I'm reverencing is that which it represents, which by the liturgical, the blessing that we give it, makes present, not substantially like Eucharist, right?
这现在不是基督降地狱，但木头的实质并没有消失。 This isn't now the harrowing of hell, but the substance of the wood is gone.
但在某种程度上，你听到这个词「窗户」，对吧？ But in a way, you hear this word window, right?
因为这里的人在另一边；有东西在我们之间，但他们对我来说是临 在的，就像即使我这里有有机玻璃，你对我来说也是临在的一样。 Because the people here are on the other side; there is something that is between us, but they're present to me like you would be present to me even if I were to have plexiglass here.
在某种程度上，你在这个东西的另一边，但你仍然对我来说是临在的。 In a way, you're on this other side of this thing, but you're still present to me.
这真的是我们在这里看到的。 That's really what we see here.
而美妙的事情是，这是一个展示这一点的很好的圣像。 And the beautiful thing, this is a great icon to show this.
如果你注意到，背景比前景高是有点奇怪的，对吧？ If you notice, it's kind of weird that the background is higher than the foreground, right?
这是故意的。 That's on purpose.
它使这些东西看起来有点奇怪，因为你不会，当你去纳尔逊-阿特金斯艺术博物馆， 你看到一幅风景画，当然，你会看进画中，因为路在前面更宽，然后消失，对吧？ It makes these things look kind of odd because you don't, when you go down to the Nelson-Atkins Art Museum and you see a painting of a landscape, and of course, you look into the painting because the road is wider at the front and disappears, right?
所以艺术家称之为消失点，画的消失点是在画中，对吧？ So the artists call that the vanishing point, and the vanishing point of the painting is in the painting, right?
因为你在看进画中。 Because you're looking into the painting.
圣像，则相反。 Icons, it's the opposite.
这就是为什么背面比前面大，因为圣像的消失点不在圣像中；是你。 That's why the back is bigger than the front, because the vanishing point of the icon isn't in the icon; it's you.
哦，是的，好的，所以是圣像通过那个消失点——也就是你——在看着你，对吧？ Oh, yeah, okay, so it's the icon looking at you by that vanishing point being you, right?
因为这更大；前景更小。 Because this is bigger; the foreground is smaller.
所以实际上是消失点令人难以置信。 So it's actually the vanishing point that's incredible.
如果你看所有其他的圣像，你会发现背景都比前景大，以显示和指示圣像的现实。 And if you look at all the other icons, you'll see that the backgrounds are all bigger than the foreground in order to show and indicate that reality of what the icon is.
你可以说是得救的。 You could say saved.
是的，哇，太不可思议了。 Yeah, wow, that's incredible.
所以，说到圣殿中的圣像，我特别想看看就在我们上方的那一个。 So, speaking of the icons that are in the temples, I want to look in particular at the one that's right above us.
当然。 Sure.
所以，你知道，我以前去过东正教大教堂；我去过东正教教堂并参观过，我注意到在整 个，比如说，东方建筑，东方基督教建筑中，总是有这个基督的形象就在天花板上。 So, you know, I've gone to Orthodox cathedrals before; I've gone to Orthodox churches and visited them, and I've noticed that throughout, let's say, Eastern architecture, Eastern Christian architecture, there's always this image of Christ right at the ceiling.
所以，我的意思是，首先，你怎么称呼那个形象？ So, I mean, first off, what do you call that image?
我们称之为全能者，好吗？ We call it the Pantocrator, okay?
对吧？ Right?
所以基本上这是一个希腊术语，意思是全能者。 And so basically that's a Greek term that means the Almighty.
你可以看到耶稣总是左手拿着圣经，福音书，然后他右手祝福。 You can see that it's Jesus always holding the Scriptures, the Gospel, in His left hand, and then He's blessing with His right.
耶稣总是被描绘成穿着红色内袍，这表示神性，穿着蓝色外袍，这表示人性。 Jesus is always portrayed with a red inner tunic, which is indicative of divinity, clothed in a blue tunic, which is indicative of humanity.
所以如果你看正确书写或绘制的诞神女的圣像，是相反的，因为她是人，被人性覆盖。 So if you look at icons properly written or painted of the Theotokos, it's opposite because she was human, covered in humanity.
你可以看到她下面是蓝色的；你甚至可以看到她手臂上的那个小袖口。 You can see she has the blue underneath; you can even see her in the little cuff that she's got on her arm there.
但如果你看她的图像，你会看到蓝色在红色下面，因 为她是人，但基本上被神性覆盖，就像圣灵一样。 But if you see images of her, you'll see that it's blue underneath red because she was human, but basically covered in divinity like the Holy Spirit.
这就是我对此的想法。 That's what I thought about that.
那里的字母是希腊语；看起来像I和C和X和C的 是希腊字母，基本上是耶稣的首字母和尾字母。 The letters there are Greek; what looks like an I and a C and an X and a C are Greek letters that basically are the first and last letters of Jesus.
希腊语没有像拉丁语那样的J，而且结尾的西格玛， 希腊语单词结尾的S，看起来像一个带小尾巴的C。 Greek doesn't have a J like Latin, and the sigma at the end, the S at the end of the word in Greek, looks like a C with a little tail.
所以很多时候人们说那是I-C X-E；其实不是。 So a lot of times people say that's I-C X-E; it's not.
那些是S，所以是Iota Sigma，耶稣。 Those are S's, so it's Iota Sigma Iesus.
然后X在英语中被音译为K，对吧，那是另一个S。但耶稣基督，其他字母看起来像 O，W，和可能是H或N。再次，希腊语代表Ho-On，被翻译为「那位是」。 And then the X is transliterated as K, right, in English, and that's another S. But Jesus Christos, the other letters look like an O, a W, and maybe an H or an N. Again, Greek stands for Ho-On, which is translated the one who is.
所以如果当摩西在《出埃及记》中问神，你的名字是什么？ So if when Moses asked God in Exodus, What is your name?
如果神说希腊语，如果你看七十士译本，他会说 Ego Mi Ho-On，我是那位是的。 if God spoke Greek, if you look at the Septuagint version, He would have said Ego Mi Ho-On, I am the one who is.
所以他名字周围的那三个字母，他的杏仁光圈，总是表示他的神性。 So those three letters around His name, His mandorla, always are indicating His divinity.
现在他的祝福，他手的姿势，如果你看其他圣像，特别 是主教或祭司的，他们经常以这种祝福的手势持手。 Now His blessing, the way He's holding His hand, if you look at other icons, especially of bishops or priests, they're often holding their hands in that sign of blessing.
如果你观察任何在圣体礼中祝福的祭司，他们也是这样做；他们这样持手。 And if you watch any priest that blesses during the Divine Liturgy, they do the same; they hold their hand.
我们不会手抽筋；那不是这样的。 We don't get a hand cramp; that's not what that is.
所以我们以这种独特的方式持手，我想你可以这么说。 So we hold our hand in this kind of funky way, I guess you could say.
但实际上，如果你看，它是Iota Sigma Chi Sigma，好吗？ But actually what it is, if you look, it's Iota Sigma Chi Sigma, okay?
所以我们是奉主的名祝福，对吧，通过我们的手形成那些确切的字母。 So we are blessing in the name of the Lord, right, by forming those exact letters with our hand when we do it.
哇，太不可思议了！ Wow, that's incredible!
是的，然后我想看看你在墙上的其他圣像，也许，你 知道，有时你会在拉丁教堂看到苦路十四站，对吧？ Yeah, and then I guess looking at the other icons that you have around on the walls, maybe, you know, sometimes you'll see in a Latin church the Stations of the Cross, right?
在这里的墙上，我们有什么，比如说，彩色玻璃窗？ On the walls here, what do we have, let's say, in terms of the stained glass windows, for example?
这是圣诞，让我们看看，继续。 This is Nativity, and let's see, moving on.
是的，所以自从我们重新统一以来，我们教会面临的挑战之一——我们特 定的教会来自乌克兰西部、斯洛伐克东部、匈牙利北部和罗马尼亚北部— —它在乌日哥罗德联盟中与罗马重新联合，现在已经400多年了。 Yeah, so one of the things that has been a challenge for our church since we reunited—so our particular church comes from the western part of Ukraine, eastern part of Slovakia, northern Hungary, and northern Romania—and it came back in union with Rome at the Union of Uzhhorod, now 400 and some years ago.
在这样做的过程中，发生的是我们试图证明我们是公教徒，经常发 现我们采纳了罗马公教会的做法融入我们的，以某种方式融合。 In doing so, what happened was that we, trying to prove that we were Catholics, often found that we took up Roman Catholic practices into ours, kind of melded in a way.
它们确实融合了，你知道，带进了其他不适当的、不是我们传统一部分的东西。 They did meld, you know, brought other things in that were inappropriate and not part of our tradition.
其中之一就是，我以前见过像我们这样的教堂有苦路十四站。 One of those being, I've seen churches like ours before that have like the Stations of the Cross.
对吧？ Right?
嗯，那不是我们的传统。 Well, that's not our tradition.
不幸的是，这个教堂的彩色玻璃窗——我不确定它们是什么时候安装的。 Unfortunately, the stained glass windows in this church—I'm not sure when they were installed.
这座建筑是1920年的。如果它们来自那个时代 ，我不会感到惊讶——它们非常罗马公教风格。 This building is from 1920. I wouldn't be surprised if they were from that time—are very Roman Catholic.
对，是的。 Right, yeah.
所以，例如，关于三位一体的那个，我们永远不会展示神的形象，对吧？ So, for example, over the one of the Blessed Trinity, we would never show God's authority, right?
那是你能想象到的最大的圣像禁忌。 That's the biggest iconographic no-no you could ever imagine.
没有任何圣像展示圣父。 No icon ever shows the Father.
如果我们要表示三位一体，我们有三位天使会见亚伯拉罕的圣像，对吧？ If we're going to indicate the Trinity, we have an icon of the three angels that met Abraham, right?
所以那就像，我看到那个就说，哦！所以那个，是 的，同样的科斯塔林多斯真的不符合我们的传统。 So that is like, I saw that and went, Oh! So that, yeah, the same Costarindos really aren't fitting to our tradition.
这里的圣像，再次强调，表示圣人和天上众军与我们一起敬拜神的临在。 The icons here, again, are indicative of the presence of the saints and the heavenly hosts that are here with us worshiping God.
所以，你知道，无论是什么堂区，这里对它们没有严格规定。 And so, you know, whatever the parish, there's no like prescription here about them.
现在，圣像屏是有规定的；那些必须在特定房间里。 Now, the icon screens are prescribed; those have to be in certain rooms.
建筑周围的那些，你知道，当然这里总是有全能者的图像。 The ones around the building, you know, and of course you have the Pantocrator always here.
但你在任何特定教堂的墙壁周围发现的东西，真的取决于 那个特定的，那个特定的，你知道，谁设计它和谁做它。 But what you find around the walls of any given church is really up to that particular, that particular, you know, who designed it and who did it.
有时候，我的意思是，如果你真的，你知道，东正教有这些美丽的地方，就像每一平方英寸 都是，我的意思是，那只是，当然，我们是一个小社区，所以我们没有完全做到这一点。 Sometimes, I mean, if you really, you know, the Orthodox have these beautiful places where just like every square inch is, I mean, that's just, of course, we're a small community, so we don't quite have that.
你还需要能做那种工作的圣像画师，对吧？ You have to have iconographers that can do that too, right?
这不容易。 Which is not easy.
但是，是的，所以这里外面真的没有规定。 But yeah, so out here really isn't prescribed.
所以可能最好的起点是这里的主要四个圣像，对吧？ So probably the best place to start is the main four icons here, right?
所以你总是在南边找到耶稣。 So you always find Jesus to the south.
所以我们总是面向东方。 So we're always facing east.
任何拜占庭教堂不朝东的话；我们可以称之为礼仪东方。 Any Byzantine church is not facing east; we can call it liturgical east.
不，我们应该面向东方。 No, we should be facing east.
为什么？ Why?
因为那是耶稣升起的地方。 Because that's where Jesus rises.
我们面向复活的主。 We're facing the risen Lord.
所以在南边，我们总是有基督。 So to the south, we have always Christ.
再次，我们谈到那些字母等等。 Again, we talked about those letters and whatnot.
他通常拿着打开的福音书，有某种经文。 He usually is holding the Gospel open with some kind of scripture.
对于这一个，是关于世界的光。 For this one, it's on the light of the world.
然后我们有我们称之为皇门的，这些门实际上是可以打开的。 Then we have what we call the royal doors, which these doors actually open.
我一会儿会谈谈上面有什么。 I'll talk about what's on there in a minute.
所以然后在北边，我们有诞神女，几乎从不，我想有一个圣像她是单独显示的。 And so then to the north, we have the Theotokos, and almost never, I think there's one icon where she's shown alone.
她总是与基督一起显示。 She's always shown with Christ.
再次，你可以看到她有蓝色，对吧？ And again, you can see that she's got the blue, right?
蓝色表示那是她被神性覆盖的人性，对吧？ The blue indicating that that's her humanity covered in divinity, right?
然后还有，你可以看到这些小星星。 And then also, you can see these little stars.
这里在她肩膀上有第三个，显然被基督覆盖了，这表明她在之前、期间和之后都是童贞女。 There's a third one over here on her shoulder that's obviously covered by Christ, and that is indicating that she's a virgin before, during, and after.
总之，这是她永久童贞的标志。 Anyway, it's the sign of her perpetual virginity.
所以那两个圣像，你进去的每个教堂都会有。 So then those two icons, every church you go into would have those.
然后那里最远的大圣像，那实际上是圣尼古拉。 Then the furthest large icon down there, that's actually St. Nicholas.
好的，原版的，对吧？ Okay, the original, right?
我们看待他的方式与圣诞老人有点不同。 We look at him a little bit differently than Santa Claus.
是的，是的，是的。 Yeah, yeah, yeah.
但他实际上是拜占庭公教徒的主保圣人，所以是拜占庭公教会的。 But he's actually the patron saint of Byzantine Catholics, so the Byzantine Catholic Church.
所以那是最大的，我猜，我该怎么说，无论是什么东方教会在那里的结构的主保圣人。 So that's the patron of like the largest, I guess, how would I say, structure of whatever Eastern church goes there.
所以如果你进入俄罗斯东正教教堂，那将是圣弗拉基米尔。 So like if you went into a Russian Orthodox church, that'd be St. Vladimir.
圣弗拉基米尔，好的。 St. Vladimir, okay.
然后一直到另一边，再次，最右边的主要圣像，通常情况 下，这是一个非典型的，但那通常是教堂的主保圣人。 And so then all the way to the other side, again, the major icon to the far right, that's typically, this is an atypical one, but that is typically the patron of the church.
所以那应该是圣路加，对吧？ So that should be St. Luke, right?
这个教堂最初不叫圣路加。 This church was not named St. Luke originally.
我想它是圣约瑟。 I think it was St. Joseph.
它多次易手，但那实际上是施洗约翰，他是我们主教区的主保圣人。 It changed hands on numerous occasions, but that's actually St. John the Forerunner, and he is our eparchy patron.
所以它很合适。 So it fits.
我的意思是，他是我们主教区的主保圣人，主教区是教区的希腊词。 I mean, he's a patron of our eparchy, which is the Greek word for diocese.
好的，是的，就是这样。 Okay, yeah, there we go.
我正打算问这个。 I'm just going to ask about that.
是的，就是这样。 Yeah, there we go.
然后在皇门上，再次强调，这些门目前是关闭的。 And then on the royal doors, again, these doors at the moment are closed.
它们在圣体礼的特定时间会打开。 They do open during particular times during the divine liturgy.
你有圣母领报，对吧？ You have the Annunciation, right?
所以你那里有大天使加百列和诞神女。 So you have the Archangel Gabriel and the Theotokos there.
再次，你能更好地看到蓝色和红色对比的更好迹象。 Again, the better sign of you see the blue and red contrast better.
然后是四位福音书作者。 And then the four evangelists.
然后是门。 Then there's doors.
然后我们也称这些为执事门。 Then also we call these deacon's doors.
我们称它们为执事门，因为它们是人们进出圣所的主要入口。 We call them deacon's doors because they are the main entrances of the way people get in and out of the holy place, the sanctuary.
在那些上面，总是有圣像。 And on those, there's always icons.
而且因为希腊语中的angelos意思是使者，而执事基本上是从天上来站 在前面，带领大家向神祷告的人，因为他带领我们祈祷的许多连祷和祷告。 And because the word angelos in Greek means messenger, and the deacon is the one who comes basically from heaven to stand in front and lead everybody in prayer to God because he leads a lot of the litanies and the prayers that we pray.
你通常或典型地在门上要么有天使作为他的标志，要么有实际的执事。 You usually or typically on the doors either have angels for his indication or actual deacons.
是的，对吧？ Yeah, right?
所以你可以有，你知道，圣罗曼诺，你可以有圣斯蒂芬，你知道，任何那些人。 So you could have, you know, St. Romanos, you could have St. Stephen, you know, any of those guys.
然后通常在这里，我们又有十二个主要的庆节。 And then usually here again, we have the twelve principal feast.
上面的下一排是诞神女和基督的十二个主要庆节。 The next row up is the twelve principal feasts of the Theotokos and Christ.
中间是神秘晚餐，即最后的晚餐。 On the center is the mystical supper, the Last Supper.
这可以有变化。 That can vary.
有时它被称为迪斯（Dies），上面有基督与他的母亲坐在宝座上。 Sometimes it's called the Dies, that has Christ on the throne with his mother.
然后你看到他旁边的另一个人。 And then you see this other person next to him.
每个人总是认为那是神学家约翰。 Everybody always thinks it's John the Theologian.
实际上是施洗约翰。 It's actually the Forerunner.
所以我们经常描绘马利亚，诞神女，和施洗约翰与耶稣在一起， 而不是马利亚和约翰，我们称他为神学家约翰，福音书的作者。 So oftentimes we depict Mary, the Theotokos, and the Forerunner with Jesus rather than Mary and John, who we call John the Theologian, the writer of the Gospel.
当你说施洗约翰，对于可能想知道的人来说，这意 味着施洗约翰，施洗者约翰，也就是众所周知的。 When you say John the Forerunner, that means, for people who might be wondering, John the Baptist, John the Baptizer, otherwise known.
是的，因为再次，有趣的是，再次这在强调上有点不同。 Yeah, because again, interestingly enough, again it's a little bit different in emphasis.
我是拜占庭教会的皈依者。 I'm a convert to the Byzantine Church.
我作为一个年轻人，在一个社交型的新教家庭中长大。 I was, as a young man, grew up in kind of a social Protestant home.
这有点，无论如何，就是这样。 It was kind of, anyway, it was what it was.
我有一次皈依经历，成为了罗马公教徒。 I had a conversion experience, became Roman Catholic.
我做了几年的罗马公教徒，然后成为了拜占庭教徒。 I was Roman Catholic for a number of years and then became Byzantine.
我从来没有听说过除了施洗约翰以外的名称，而我们很 少说施洗约翰；我们只是强调他是先行者这一事实。 I never heard anything but John the Baptist, and we rarely say John the Baptist; we just emphasize the fact that the Forerunner.
为什么？ Why?
因为那是交给他的使命，他在玛拉基书和以赛亚书中履行了这个使命。 Because that was the ministry given to him that he fulfilled in Malachi and Isaiah.
他自己说，对吧，我就是那个要预备主道路的人。 He himself says, right, I'm the one that's in order to prepare the way of the Lord.
所以，是的，我们非常敬奉他。 And so, yeah, we venerate him a lot.
我的意思是，他对我们来说是一位非常重要的圣人，远远超过，远远超 过，再次，在我们的教会中的强调远远超过我在罗马教会中所经历的。 I mean, he's a very important saint to us, much more than, much more, again, much more emphasis in our Church than what I experienced in the Roman Church.
所以我们庆祝他的诞辰，我们庆祝他每次被斩首，然后 他们三次发现他的头，每次找到他的头都有一个庆节。 So we celebrate his Nativity, we celebrate every time he's beheaded, and then they found his head three times at a feast for every time he found his head.
所以我们那里有各种各样的东西，所以我想也许如果我们可 以移到屏幕后面，除非你想说关于这里的任何其他事情。 So we've got all kinds of stuff there, so I guess maybe if we can move behind the screen, unless there's anything else you want to say about anything here.
嗯，也许人们很多时候看到的一个区别是我们的十字架看起来有点不同。 Well, maybe the one difference a lot of times people see is that our cross looks a little bit different.
这里是它的一个表现，对吧？ Here's a representation of that, right?
所以我们有，通常你会看到这个倾斜的下横杆作为十字架的一部分。 So we have, usually you'll see this lower bar that's at an angle for a cross.
我们没有带有实际尸体的十字架；我们可能有带有耶稣 尸体的图像的十字架，但不像你们习惯的那种身体。 We don't have crucifixes that have actual corpses on there; we might have crosses that have an icon painted of Jesus' corpse, but not like a body like what you guys are used to.
实际上，唯一的区别是这是标题牌所在的地方，这是他的手臂所在的地方，这是脚踏板。 And really, the only difference is that this is the titulus where the title was, this is where his arms were, and this is the footrest.
关于为什么它是倾斜的，有一些传统原因。 And there are some traditional reasons of why it's angled.
一个是指向上升的好盗贼，另一个盗贼下降——这种正义的事情。 One is pointing at the good thief that's going up, and the other thief that went down—this kind of justice kind of thing.
但实际上，最终，它只是他的脚踏板的一个指示物。 But really, in the end, it just simply is an indicator of his footrest.
如果你去东欧，拜占庭公教徒会把它做成平行的；东正教徒会把他们的做成倾斜的。 If you go to Eastern Europe, Byzantine Catholics make that parallel; the Orthodox make theirs angled.
这真的很有趣。 It's really interesting.
那是你总能辨别你是否在乌克兰，那是东正教教堂还是公 教堂的方式之一——这第三横杆是平行的还是倾斜的？ That's one of the ways you can always tell if you're in, like, Ukraine, if that's an Orthodox church or a Catholic church—is this third bar parallel or angled?
就像斯洛伐克国旗上，如果你看斯洛伐克的国旗，有三条平行横杆。 Like on the Slovakian flag, if you look at the flag of Slovakia, there are three parallel bars.
那里的人大多是公教徒。 They're largely Catholic there.
所以，嗯，这个区域，一般来说，所以你知道，你知道，圣母通常会在这里。 So, well, this area here, just in general, so you know where, you know, Lady will be here usually.
然后你有——你会称这个为圣所吗？ And then you have the—would you call this the sanctuary?
这种区域，就整个范围，你知道吗？ This kind of area, just the whole expanse, you know?
是的，所以我们称这个，这里有一个台阶。 Yeah, so we call this, there's a step up.
我们没有多个台阶；我们有这一个，通常被称为副祭坛（solea）。 We don't have multiple steps up; we have this one that can be called the solea, typically.
所以当执事通常上来做，我们做祈祷时，我们通常来，我 们待在副祭坛上，除非我们正在通过人群做一个入口。 And so when the deacon typically comes up to do, and we do prayers, we usually come, we stay on the solea unless we're doing an entrance through the people.
人们不会上到台阶上；那是一种公平投票，但可以在那后面的任何地方。 The people don't come up onto the step; that's kind of fair voting, but can be anywhere kind of behind that.
然后从圣像屏的另一侧，我们称之为圣所，圣地，再次，圣像屏不是为了把人 们挡在外面，而是它要划分什么是世界上的教会或在世界上的教会和天堂。 And then from the icon screen on the other side of what we would call that the sanctuary, the holy place, again, the icon screen isn't there to keep people out, but what it is to do is it delineates what is kind of the Church of the world or in the world and heaven.
所以，当然，在天堂里，天上的人，众军，天使和圣人都在俯视世界上的人，对吧？ And so, of course, in heaven, the heavenly people, the hosts, and the angels and the saints are looking upon those in the world, right?
你可能称之为战斗中的教会，对吧？ You might call it the Church Militant, right?
我想你可以说，凯旋的教会正在俯视聚集的战斗中的教会，与他 们一起祈祷，为他们祈祷，通过圣灵的能力在圣子中敬拜圣父。 The Church Triumphant, I suppose you could say, is looking upon the Church Militant gathered to pray with them, to pray for them, to worship the Father in the Son by the power of the Holy Spirit.
所以这不太像一堵墙，一个障碍，而是一个接口。 So this isn't so much like a wall, a block, but an interface.
这是一个划分，表明这真的是天堂，而外面不是。 It's a delineation that this is really heaven, and out here is not.
但我们要做的，对吧，作为圣体礼的一部分，我们实际上拿起福音 书，从圣所出来，然后走到人们那里，再回来，然后进入那里。 But what we're going to do, right, and part of the divine liturgy, we actually take the Gospel and we come out of the sanctuary, and then we walk out to the people, come back up, and then we enter into there.
我默默祈祷的祷告，人们听不到的，我默默地说，让我们 的入口成为圣天使的入口，来庆祝我们荣耀你的良善。 And the prayer that I pray silently, people don't hear it, that I say silently is that, Make this our entrance an entrance of holy angels to celebrate of us that glorify in your goodness.
所以我们这样做实际上是表明现在我们将进入天堂。 So really what we're indicating by doing that is now we're going to enter heaven.
然后我们当然也拿着面包和酒出来，并做另一个入口，把它带回圣桌。 And we also then, of course, come out with the bread and the wine and make another entrance to bring that back to the holy table.
所以这是一种从神那里发出并回到神那里的柏拉图式的发散。 So it's this kind of Platonic emanation from God and return to God.
但它所做的是表明在礼仪中，因为我们将参与羔羊的婚宴，那唯一的圣体礼， 我们不是把礼仪分割成这些不同的位置，而是实际上进入那唯一的天上礼仪。 But what it's doing is it's indicating that in the liturgy, because we're going to participate in the wedding feast of the Lamb, the one divine liturgy, we aren't chopping up the liturgy into these different locations, but we're actually entering into the one heavenly liturgy.
这是真的，这些动作不仅仅是实用的；它们在试图表明实际发 生的事情的意义上是神学的，也就是我们真的在进入天堂。 That that's true, these movements aren't just practical; they're theological in the sense of trying to indicate what's actually happening, which is we really are entering heaven.
通过这样做，我们得以敬拜神，然后以某种方式，我们最终 会带着圣餐出来，神从那里来，在圣餐中将自己给予我们。 And by doing that, then we get to worship God, and then in a way, we're going to end up coming back out with communion that God comes from there then to give us Himself in holy communion.
我注意到在拉丁建筑中，一般来说，在传统的拉丁建筑中，你有很多向上指的点，对吧？ I noticed that in Latin architecture, generally speaking, in traditional Latin architecture, you have a lot of points that point upwards, right?
我在某处听说，这个想法是这些角度应该是引导或显示你的祈祷正在上升到天堂，对吧？ And I heard somewhere that the idea was that these angles are supposed to be directing or showing that your prayers are going up to heaven, right?
而很多东方建筑是把天堂带给你，就像天堂正下来看你，看见你。 Whereas a lot of Eastern architecture is bringing heaven to you, like heaven is coming down to look upon you, to see you.
这是一种公平的方式来概括这一点吗？ Is that a fair way to kind of maybe summarize that?
我认为那种圆弧是正确的，然后当然我们使用大量的香。 I think it is right that kind of rounded arc, and then of course we use lots of incense.
是的，当然你知道，我们甚至通过我们周围祈祷的祷告来表明这一点。 Yes, and of course you know that, and we indicate that even by, you know, the prayers that we pray around.
对吧？ Is that right?
这香，根据诗篇，当然在希伯来编号中是诗篇140，141， 在希腊编号中是140，关于我们的祈祷像香一样上升的事实。 This incense, according to Psalms, of course Psalm 140, 141 in the Hebrew numbering, 140 in the Greek numbering, about the fact that our prayers rise like incense.
所以它真的是，香不仅是一种圣化的东西，而且也表示圣徒的祈祷在神的宝座前上升。 And so it really is, incense is not only like a sanctifying kind of thing, but it's also indicating the prayers of the saints rising before the throne of God.
所以我们经常这样做来表明，继续把我们引向那个 想法，我们真的在神的同在中，没有这种分离。 So we do that a lot to indicate, continue to draw us to that idea that we really are in the presence of God, that there isn't this separation.
我认为我们必须非常小心，因为作为公教徒，我们很容易陷入斯蒂 芬神父，一位东正教神父，一本极好的书《无处不在》所说的，我 们可能最终会创造一个两层的宇宙：神在上面，我们在下面。 I think we have to be very careful because as Catholics we can really get easily caught up into what Father Stephen, an Orthodox priest, a fantastic book called Everywhere Present makes, that we can kind of end up making a two-story universe: God's up there and we're down here.
我总是问我的人，我就像，你知道，神在哪里？ And I ask my people all the time, I'm like, you know, where's God?
嗯，如果你说上面，那么中国的人会怎么说？ Well, if you say up, well then what do the people in China say?
因为他们指向相反的方向，对吧？ Because they point in the opposite direction, right?
所以神不在上面；他在我里面。 So God isn't up; He's in me.
神同在的主要地方是你，我。 The primary place of God's presence is you, me.
我们是圣灵的圣殿，对吧？ We're the temple of the Holy Spirit, right?
甚至连圣体龛，我们称之为圣体柜（archiforium）。 And even the tabernacle, we call it an archiforium.
圣体柜意味着面包，即使他在那里同在。 Archiforium means bread, even though He's present there.
但那种同在只是为了他在我里面的同在而设的。 But that presence is only ordered to His presence in me.
它不仅仅是为了同在而同在。 It isn't just presence for its own sake.
将会有一天，圣餐作为圣事将会消失，因为我们将 看见他并认识他，正如约翰福音17:3所说。 There'll be a day that the Eucharist will go away as a sacrament because we'll see Him and know Him, as John 17:3 says.
是的，正是如此。 Yeah, exactly.
永生就是：你认识唯一的真神和他所差来的耶稣基督。 Eternal life is this: you know, the one true God and Him, Jesus Christ, whom He sent.
所以这种互动和这种合一和这种聚集，总是强调神不在上面；他在这里。 So this interaction and this oneness and this bringing together, always emphasizing that God's not up there; He's here.
他在每一件事物中。 He's in everything.
圣事的世界观不仅仅是在水、油、面包和祭司的赦罪话语中 有这七个场合，而是我们在物质事物中与他互动的地方。 The sacramental worldview isn't just that there's these seven occasions in water and oil and bread and the words of a priest in absolution, but that's where we interact with Him in material things.
但每一种物质事物，因为起初所有物质事物都应该充满他的同在，对吧？ But every material thing, because in the beginning all material things were supposed to be shot through with His presence, right?
神显。 The theophany.
是堕落遮蔽了这一点，对吧？ And it was the fall that obscured that, right?
所以我们甚至为我们的神显节祈祷，这不是—— 你们庆祝主显节，就是东方三博士来访的节日。 So we even pray a prayer for our theophany, which is not—you guys celebrate Epiphany, which is the Magi.
我们实际上在圣诞节主日读东方三博士的福音。 We actually read the Gospel of Magi on the Sunday of Christmas.
所以对我们来说，神显节是关于基督的洗礼，但事实是 神进入约旦河水，通过这样做，他净化了约旦河水。 So for us, theophany is about the baptism of Christ, but it's the fact that God entered the water of the Jordan, and in doing so, He purified the water of the Jordan.
换句话说，因为洗礼水，祭司在其中的祝福，通过 圣灵的能力，那水成为它本来应该成为的样子。 In other words, because of the baptismal water, the blessing of the priest in that, by the power of the Holy Spirit, that water becomes what it was always meant to be.
它不仅仅是像在水上贴上某种东西那样祝福它， 而是水实际上成为了堕落之前它本来的样子。 It doesn't just bless it like there's this kind of something slapped on top of water, but the water actually becomes what it was prior to the fall.
它成为这种赐生命的东西，通过它给予我们神，就像其他一切事物本应做的那样。 It becomes this life-giving thing that gives us God through it, like everything else was supposed to do.
所以这就像基督，他的救赎工作不仅仅是把人提升到他自己那里，而是在救赎整个创造。 So it's like Christ, His redemptive work didn't just lift up men to Himself, but it's redeeming all of creation.
在某种程度上，它正在带回那些在撒但权下，在死亡 权下的东西，这个本应充满生命的物质世界，对吧？ In a way, it's bringing back what was under the power of Satan, under the power of death, this material world that was supposed to be full of life, right?
它已经通过基督恢复了，对吧？ And it's been restored through Christ, right?
所以是道成肉身，对吧？ So the Incarnation, right?
十字架的工作，复活，所有那些，不仅仅是为了人，尽管，你知道，那是主要的 事情，因为我们是，我猜，创造的祭司，如果你愿意这么说的话，是最高点。 The work of the Cross, the Resurrection, all that, it's not just for people, although, you know, that is the main thing because we are, I guess, the priests of creation, with a high point, if you will.
阿们，对吧？ Amen, right?
但然后通过那个，他也关心其他生物和其余的物质世界。 But then through that, He also cares about other living things and the rest of the material world.
物质世界不是我们试图逃离和憎恨的东西或类似的东西。 The material world is not something we're trying to escape from and hate or something like that.
没错，你会发现这两个人对此有很宇宙性的看法， 亚当和夏娃，因为我们既是非物质的又是物质的。 Exactly, and you'll find that these two are very cosmic about that, Adam and Eve, because of the fact that we're immaterial and material.
他们主要是，你知道，被设立为祭司，在他们自己身上会聚集宇宙万物。 They were primarily, you know, constituted as priests that in themselves would gather up the cosmic.
我们使用这个希腊词，微观宇宙，对吧？ We use this Greek word, microcosmos, right?
在他们里面的小宇宙，他们要在一个伟大的圣餐中接受神的所有创造，并将其奉献回给神。 The small universe that in them they were to take up all of God's creation in one great Eucharist and offer it back to God.
而他们拒绝了，然后，拒绝成为那样，神不得不通过他自己 的大祭司职分来恢复那个，像麦基洗德，麦基洗德的主。 And they refused, and then, refusing to be that, then God had to restore that through the high priesthood of Himself, like Melchizedek, the Lord of Melchizedek.
然后，通过基督的大祭司职分，万物都更新了。 And then, through Christ's high priesthood, all things are made new.
就像我们指出的，七十士译本圣经的前两个希腊词是en arche。 Like we make the point, the first two words of the Septuagint Bible in Greek is en arche.
约翰福音的前两个词是en arche。 The first two words of the Gospel of John are en arche.
约翰在这里强调一点，对吧？ John's making a point here, right?
在道成肉身中，万物都更新了。 That in the Incarnation, all things were made new.
这种恢复不仅仅是我们，而是神不在某个遥远的地方，而是，就 像我们在对圣灵的祷告中说的，像你的创造者，本尼创造者。 And this restoration is not just us, but it's that God isn't up there somewhere, but He's, as we say in our prayer to the Holy Spirit, like your creator, Benny creator.
我们有这个我们称之为天上的纯洁。 We have this that we call heavenly clean.
我们说无处不在的同在并充满万物，就像阿奎那说的，对吧？ We say everywhere presence and filling all things, like Aquinas says, right?
神同在的力量。 God's power of presence.
那么，神父，我确实有一个问题。 And, well, Father, so I do have a question.
是的，我们能看到另一边吗，或者那种感觉，不，没关系？ Yeah, are we able to see on the other side, or is that kind of like, no, that's okay?
好的，是的，我们要做的是，嗯，我认为这里重要的一点是这个后面的地方 不是对任何人都完全开放的，我们仍然保留并试图维持一种神圣性的概念。 Okay, yeah, what we'll do is, well, one thing that I think is important to note here is the fact that this place back here isn't just wide open for anybody to traipse through, that we have still retained and tried to maintain an idea of sacredness.
所以，即使像圣爵和所有神圣的东西，圣桌本身，是的，是的，是的，划分了那个。 And so, even like the chalice and all of the holy things, the holy table itself, yeah, yeah, yeah, delineates that.
所以，是的，我们可以回去，但不是任何人都可以去那里或没有我的许可或祝 福就去那里，因为这是，再次，这种感觉不是为了排斥而是为了表明不同性。 So, yeah, we can go back, but it isn't like anybody just goes back there or anybody goes back there without my permission or blessing, because there's this, again, it's this sense not to be exclusionary but to indicate otherness.
记住，圣洁不仅仅是道德正直；圣洁是不同性，神不是我们，不像我们是我们那样，关于他 有如此宏伟荣耀的事物，我们必须通过我们在其周围的行为来尊崇，我想你可以这么说。 And remember, holy isn't just moral rectitude; holiness is otherness, and it's that God isn't us, isn't us like we are us, and that there's something so magnificently glorious about Him that we have to honor that by the way we act around it, I guess you could say.
所以，是的，东方和西方之间的差异之一是，因为无论如何新礼中的祭 司，对吧，面向人民，我们不是。是的，所以对我们来说，建筑中最神 圣的地方是在皇门和桌子前面之间，除了祭司之外没有人越过那里。 So, yeah, one of the differences between the East and the West, where because of the priest in the Novus Ordo anyway, right, faces the people, we don't. Yes, so for us, the holiest place in the building is in between the royal doors and the front of the table, and nobody except the priest crosses that.
执事不会；如果他们要到我的另一边，他们实际上会出去，绕着圣桌到另一边。 The deacons don't; if they're going to come to the other side of me, they actually go out and around the holy table to the other side.
但你可以看到，就像，我记得一开始我告诉过你关于会幕的事。 But you can see, like, I remember in the beginning I told you about the Tent of the Meeting.
所以，我们有献祭坛；你可以看到我们有至圣所。 So, we have the altar of sacrifice; you can see we have the Holy of Holies.
这是圣体龛，Artiforium是我们在希腊语中称呼它的名字。 This is the tabernacle, Artiforium is what we call it in Greek.
我们有一个七枝灯台，对吧？ We have a seven-branched candlestick, right?
我们有，你可以说，香坛，对吧？ We have, you might say, the altar of incense, right?
所以，我们在某种程度上有所有这些方面，这些我们称为 ripidia的礼仪扇子，你可以看到这些的圣像。 So, we kind of have all of these aspects, these liturgical fans we call ripidia, and you can see there's icons of these.
它们实际上是撒拉弗，对吧？ They're actually seraphim, right?
因为如果我们记得以赛亚书，它说他们有六个翅膀，很多眼睛，对吧？ Because if we remember from Isaiah, it says that they had six wings, many eyes, right?
两个遮盖他们的脚，两个遮盖他们的脸，用两个他们飞翔。 Two covered their feet, and two covered their face, and with two they fly.
所以，在此期间，你甚至可以在这上面看到，这实际上是执事的ripidia。 And so, during, you can even see it on this, this is actually a deacon's ripidia.
你可以看到那是斯拉夫语。 You can see that's in Sivanic.
Shvat, Shvat, Shvat意思是圣哉，圣哉，圣哉。 Shvat, Shvat, Shvat means holy, holy, holy.
在祝圣礼物的部分过程中，执事实际上站着并在礼物上挥动这个，祝 圣它们，表明天军的临在，因为我们现在通过那个入口在天堂中。 And during part of the consecration of the gifts, the deacon actually stands and waves this over the gifts, consecrating them, indicating the presence of the heavenly host, because we're now in heaven through that entrance.
再次，现在我们在天堂，天军在那里见证并在面包和酒的转变中在场。 Again, now we're in heaven, and the heavenly hosts are there to witness and be there in the transformation of the bread and wine.
所以说到这里的诞神女圣像，我注意到在很多，如果我没记错的话，很多东 方教堂，就像当你真正到达教堂的最后面，对吧，或者它最东边的部分，可 能在那上面，你通常会看到圣母张开双手，然后基督作为孩子也在那里。 So speaking about the icons in the Theotokos back here, I noticed that in a lot of, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of Eastern churches, like when you get really to the way back of the church, right, or the eastern-most portion of it, maybe up there, you usually see the Blessed Mother with her hands spread out and then the Christ as a child there too.
那么这里的这个圣像是什么？ So what is this icon here?
它的意义是什么？ What's the meaning of it?
这里发生了什么？ What's going on here?
对，所以那被称为Plakiterá，对吧？ Right, so that's called the Plakiterá, right?
基本上是一个希腊术语，表示她的子宫像地球一样宽广，像宇宙一样宽广，对吧？ And it's basically a Greek term that her womb is as wide as the earth, as wide as the universe, right?
因为在她里面，对吧，她怀抱着基督，这就是指示， 对吧，他在她里面，所以她的子宫像天空一样宽广。 Because within her, right, she carried Christ, and that's the indicator, right, is that he is within her, and so that her womb is as wide as the heavens.
在那里她处于为我们所有人祈祷的姿势。 And there she's in this position of praying for all of us.
在这个特定的地方，你可以看到三颗星，两颗在她的肩膀上，一颗在她的头上。 And here you can see in this particular, you can see the three stars, two on her shoulders and one on her head.
那是对她永久童贞的宣告。 That's the declaration of her perpetual virginity.
然后这里的圣像，它们可以有所不同。 And then the icons back here, they can vary.
我们有一个，再次，神秘晚餐的，基督赐予圣餐。 We have one, again, of the Mystical Supper, Christ giving the Eucharist.
这里我们有以撒的献祭，或亚伯拉罕献以撒。 This we have the sacrifice of Isaac, or the offering of Isaac, Abraham.
然后我们有麦基洗德在创世记12章中献上饼和酒，他的祭司职分是基督的，正如我们在 希伯来书中所读到的，我们知道这祭司职分不是来自亚伦的祭司职分，而是先于它的。 And then we have Melchizedek offering the bread and wine in Genesis 12, whose Christ priesthood, as we've read in the Book of Hebrews, we know whose priesthood comes from not from this Aaronic priesthood, but the one that predates it.
然后在这个侧祭坛上，在那边圣爵所在的地方，我们称这个为预备祭坛。 And then over this side altar, over to the side there where the chalice is, we call this the altar of preparation.
在这里我们在礼仪之前准备面包和酒。 And here we prepare the bread and wine prior to the liturgy.
通常有一个圣像，我们称这个为基督极度谦卑的圣像。 And usually there's an icon of, we call this the icon of extreme humility of Christ.
他双手交叠着他受难的所有工具，他的头完全臣服于他的父亲，低下头。 He's got his hands folded with all of the tools of his crucifixion, his head bowed in complete submission to his Father.
然后是圣诞的圣像。 And then the icon of the Nativity.
然后我们有屈梭多模和巴西流，这是两个，基本上是我们庆祝的两种礼仪。 And then we have John Chrysostom and Basil, which is the two, basically the two liturgies that we celebrate.
献礼祷文，圣餐祷文，是被撰写或编辑或组合或扩展的。 The Anaphora, the Eucharistic prayers, were written or edited or put together or expanded.
有一些编辑和一些历史的东西，要么是由圣巴西流大帝或屈梭多模完成的。 There's some editing and there's some historical stuff either by St. Basil the Great or John Chrysostom.
所以很有趣，即使是圣体礼和我们的一些动作，以及很多动作和很多方案仍然 遵循5、6世纪在圣索菲亚大教堂中所做的，特别是当主教庆祝等级礼仪时。 And so it's interesting, even the Divine Liturgy and some of our movements, and a lot of the movements and a lot of the scheme still follows what was done in the Hagia Sophia in the 5th, 6th century, especially when the bishop is celebrating hierarchical liturgy.
他所做的一些事情仍然暗示了5世纪在君士坦丁堡发生的事情。 Some of the things that he does still allude to what was going on in Constantinople in the 5th century.
那两个人都是大约那个时期的，他们的礼仪被传下来了。 Both of those guys were about that time, and their liturgies were handed down.
当然，礼仪是有机发展的；它不是死的，它是活的。 Of course, liturgy develops organically; it's not dead, it's alive.
所以在我们庆祝它的1500年中，已经有了适当的修改和成长。 So there's been appropriate modifications and growths over the 1500 years that we've been celebrating it.
是的，非常美丽。 Yeah, very beautiful.
所以我们通常在斋戒主日期间和在超级主要庆节如圣诞节、复活节、神显节之前的个别礼仪 中庆祝巴西流麦克雷的礼仪，然后是典型的主日礼仪或我们在一周内其他时间庆祝的礼仪。 So we celebrate the Liturgy of Basil McRae typically during the Sundays of the Fast and individual liturgies prior to the super major feasts like Christmas, Pascha, Theophany, and then the typical Sunday liturgy or other times during the week we celebrate.
让我在这里问你可能最后两个问题，然后我们可以再次开始移动。 Let me ask you maybe two last questions back here, and then we can start moving on again.
一个是，我注意到圣爵非常巨大。 One is, I noticed that the chalice is just humongous.
这是拜占庭礼仪的典型特征，有一个大圣爵吗？ Is that typical of a Byzantine liturgy to have a large chalice?
因为我知道罗马的通常小一点；它们不那么大。 Because I know the Roman ones are typically a bit smaller; they're not quite as large.
然后我的另一个问题是，显然在东方教会你们使用发酵面包，而西方使用无酵扁面包。 And then the other question I have is, obviously in the East you use leavened bread, whereas the West uses unleavened flat bread.
我想知道，为什么会有这种差异？ I was wondering, like, you know, why is there that difference?
这背后有什么历史？ What's the history behind that?
你知道，两个大问题。 You know, two big questions.
当然，当然。 Sure, sure.
是的，我们分发圣餐的一部分是我们确实使用发酵面包，我们稍后会谈 到这个，它被放在这个上面，看起来有点像蛋糕盘，但这被称为圣盘。 Yeah, well, part of our distribution of Holy Communion is the fact we do use leavened bread, which we'll talk about in a second, which has been placed on this, which looks kind of like a cake plate, but this is called a discos.
它被准备和切割，同时祈祷以赛亚受难歌的这些美丽祷文。 It's prepared and cut, praying these beautiful prayers of the suffering song of Isaiah.
所以我实际上是在祈祷这些祷文，就像被牵到宰杀之地的羔羊，然后我切下部分。 So I'm actually praying these prayers of like a lamb that led to the slaughter, and then I cut part of it.
其中一个甚至是士兵用枪刺他的肋旁，实际上用礼仪长 矛刺了圣餐，也就是所谓的羔羊，实际上是中心部分。 One of them is even a soldier pierced his side with a lance and actually stabbed the Eucharist, what's called the lamb, actually the center part, with a liturgical lance, actually.
然后血和水流出来，他作见证，他的见证是真实的。 And then blood and water flowed out, and he was born witness, and his witness was true.
那就是我们向圣爵中加入酒和水的时候。 And that's when we add the wine and the water to the chalice.
所以这很美，你知道，用以赛亚书来准备这个面包做献祭，通过这些献祭的动作，我猜。 So it's just beautiful, you know, using Isaiah to prepare this bread for the sacrifice by going through these sacrificial movements, I guess.
然后在祝圣之后，当到了圣餐时间，有一个擘饼礼。 And then after the consecration, when it's time for Communion, there is a fraction rite.
我们把面包掰开，这个羔羊，也就是这块方形的面包。 We break the bread apart, this lamb, which is this square piece of the bread.
有趣的是，然后当然我们把一些放回圣爵中，因为身体 和血分离，他的死亡，身体和血重新结合，他的生命。 What's interesting is, and then of course we return some of it to the chalice because body and blood separated, his death, body and blood reunited, his life.
然后神职人员从那四块中的一块领圣餐，但其他两块实际上是在 礼仪期间在圣桌上切碎，然后放入装有祝圣过的酒的圣爵中。 And then the clergy commune from one of those four pieces, but then the other two are cut up actually at the holy table during liturgy and then placed into the chalice that has the consecrated wine.
所以参加礼仪的每个人都从同一个羔羊领受。 So everybody at liturgy receives from the one lamb.
我们不像使用储备圣体或其他什么，然后我们用勺子给予它。 There's not like reserve posts or anything that we use, and then we give it on a spoon.
所以宝贵的身体进入宝贵的血中，然后圣餐是我们用勺子给你。 So the precious body goes into the precious blood, then Communion is that we give it to you on a spoon.
所以，这样的美是，然后我甚至默默地说一个祷告，你听不到我说的， 看哪，这触碰嘴唇将带走你的罪孽，洁净你的罪，这是以赛亚书6章的 引用，当撒拉弗，对吧，当以赛亚在圣殿中看见神的异象时，对吧？ And so, and the beauty of that is, and then I even say a prayer silently that you don't hear me say, that behold, this is touched lips will take away your iniquities and cleanse your sins, which is a quote of Isaiah 6 when the seraph, right, when Isaiah had his vision of God in the temple, right?
他说：「祸哉，我灭亡了！因为我是嘴唇不洁的人。」 And he said, Oh, woe is me, I'm a man of unclean lips.
撒拉弗带着钳子去香坛，夹起一块炭，来洁净他的嘴唇。 And the seraph goes to the altar of incense with these tongs, grabs a coal, comes and purifies his lips.
我们用于这个勺子的希腊词与以赛亚书中钳子的希腊词相同。 The word in Greek that we use for this spoon is the same as the tongs in Greek, Isaiah.
它是一个libidah，所以你吃火，也就是洁净你的圣餐炭火。 It's a libidah, so you eat fire, which is the Eucharistic coal that purifies you.
这就是通过称它为，它真正被称为libidah所表明的。 And that's what's indicated by calling it, it's really called a libidah.
你知道，使用发酵面包的一些原因，有实际的原因。 And you know, some of the use of leavened bread, there's, you know, practical reasons.
我们不那么强调它是逾越节晚餐，因为有，你知道，它似乎不是，有很 多神学讨论是，耶稣在逾越节所做的是逾越节晚餐，还是别的什么？ We don't emphasize so much that it's a Passover meal because there are, you know, it didn't seem, there's been, you know, a lot of theological discussion was, was what Jesus did at the Passover, the Passover meal, or was it something else?
对，对。 Right, right.
有趣的是，如果你读圣经，它说在除酵节期间，无酵饼的希腊词是azymes。 And it's interesting if you read in the Scriptures, it says during the Feast of Unleavened Bread, that Greek word for unleavened bread is azymes.
那是一个特定的术语，它说在azymes节期间，耶稣拿起artos。 That's like a specific term, and it says at the Feast of azymes, Jesus took artos.
嗯，artos是发酵面包。 Well, artos is leavened bread.
哦，好的，是的。 Oh, okay, yeah.
对，所以那只是面包，对吧？ Right, so that's just bread, right?
发酵的面包。 Bread that's leavened.
所以根据圣经，耶稣没有拿azymes，而是说他拿了artos。 So Jesus, by the Scriptures, didn't take azymes and say He took the partos.
所以我猜在某种程度上有圣经依据，但也有象征意 义，因为我们不强调逾越节，我们不试图看它。 And so I guess there's scriptural justification in some way, but also it's kind of symbolic too in that because we don't emphasize the Passover, we aren't trying to look at it.
我们理解，我的意思是，我们称这些为trapost as，所以不是说我们不认为耶稣是逾越节的羔羊。 We understand, I mean, we call these trapostas, so it's not like we don't think that Jesus is the Passover Lamb.
这不是我说的，而是圣餐不是，你知道，在某些方面如此直接地基于逾越节晚餐。 That's not what I'm saying, but that the Eucharistic meal isn't, you know, based on the Passover meal in some ways so directly.
所以对我们来说，对吧，事情是发酵面包是活的。 So for us, right, the thing is that leavened bread is alive.
所以这个面包是活的，事实上，在礼仪的结束部分，我们实际上在祝 圣之后，在我们把人们的圣餐部分放入圣爵之前，我们加入沸水。 So this bread is alive, and in fact, during one part of the liturgy towards the end, we actually, after the consecration, before we place the people's communion parts into the chalice, we add boiling hot water.
所以当你上前领受圣餐时，它又是温的，因为死的东西是冷的；活的东西是温的，对吧？ So when you come up to receive communion, it's warm again because dead things are cold; alive things are warm, right?
所以这是一个象征，也是一种口感的东西，但它确实是表明这是活的事实的指标。 So it's a symbolic, it's also a palatability kind of thing, but it really is an indicator of the fact that this is alive.
它不仅仅是死的。 It's not just dead.
好的，神父，让我们回去，好的，我想再问你最后一个问题。 Well, Father, let's head back out, sure, and I want to ask you just one last question.
谢谢。 Thank you.
是的。 Yeah.
所以神父，显然这是一个美丽的教堂或一个美丽 的圣殿，但它不是世界上最大的东西，对吧？ So Father, obviously this is a beautiful church or a beautiful temple, but it's not the biggest thing in the world, right?
这一点也不会减损它的美。 And that doesn't take away from its beauty at all.
我的意思是，每次我来这里，它甚至，我会说，增加了亲密感，我们彼此多么亲近。 I mean, every time I've come here, it's even, I'd say, added to the intimacy, how close we all are.
但你一直在谈论一个搬迁项目，所以我想给你一个机会谈谈正在发生的事情。 But you've been talking about a moving project, and so I want to give you a moment to just talk about what's going on.
为什么你需要搬迁，人们如何能帮助？ Why do you need to move, and how can people help?
谢谢。 Thank you.
是的，所以圣路加的历史方面之一是，长期以来，堂区由一位礼仪罗马公教 会祭司服务，其中一位是本笃会学院的本笃会修士，离这里一小时路程。 Yeah, so one of the historical aspects of St. Luke is for the longest time the parish was serviced by a ritual Roman Catholic priest, one of them being a Benedictine monk at Benedictine College, which is an hour away.
了不起的人，愿神祝福他，他做出了多大的牺牲！ Fantastic man, God bless him, what a sacrifice he made!
但当我们只是拉他出来，试图让他在周日来这里时，很难更多地建立社区。 But that's really hard to build a community more when we're just ragging him out to try to get him here on Sundays.
所以我是第一个，真正的第一个全职，完全专注的，在我没有其 他事情要做的意义上，基本上比堂区历史上大部分时间的祭司。 So I was the first, really the first full-time, fully dedicated, in the sense that I have no other thing to do, priest than basically for most of the history of the parish.
在那段时间，在这个小空间里，我们基本上增加了一倍。 And in that time then, in this little space, we've basically doubled.
我们大约，我们计算过中殿大约800平方英尺左右。 We have about, we've calculated the nave is about 800 square feet or so.
上周日我们这里有77人，太拥挤了，我们需要搬迁，因为我担心的是我们会 变得太大，人们不会来，因为他们在这里太挤了，他们会选择去别的地方。 Last Sunday we had 77 people in here, and it's just so tight that we need to move because what I'm afraid of is that we're going to get so big that people won't come because they're so packed in here that they'll just opt out to go somewhere else.
所以我们需要搬迁。 And so we need to move.
对我们来说这会是什么样子，我们还不太确定。 What that looks like for us, we're not quite sure yet.
我们不想进入太大的地方，因为那样所有的亲密感都会丧 失，然后突然就像把一团明亮燃烧的火分散到地面上。 We don't want to go into something that's massive because then all of the intimacy is lost, and then suddenly it's like taking a fire that's burning brightly and then spreading it out all over the ground.
它就会熄灭。 It's just going to go out.
所以我们一直在寻找房产，我们一直在祈祷。 And so we've been looking at properties, we've been praying.
我们在新冠疫情之后开始。就在新冠疫情之后， 我们作为一个堂区开始按东方方式祈祷诗篇。 We started just after COVID. Just after COVID, we started as a parish praying the Psalter in the East.
我们把诗篇分成20个部分；我们称之为卡提斯玛，人们报名一周祈祷一部分。 We break up the Psalter into 20 blocks; we call it Kathisma, and people signed up to pray that for a week.
所以如果每个人都在祈祷他们报名的部分，教会每周祈祷整本诗篇。 So if everybody's praying what they signed up for, the church prays the entire Psalter weekly.
嗯哼。 Mm-hmm.
在这个讲道中，我们已经这样做了两年，然后每月一次我们祈祷所谓的马勒本。 In this sermon, we've been doing that for two years, and then once a month we pray what's called a Malebon.
它像是礼仪后对圣灵的祈祷服务，祈求指引。 It's like a prayer service after liturgy to the Holy Spirit, praying for guidance.
我们现在已经这样做了两年多一点。 We've been doing that for a little over two years now.
所以我们处于等待的地方，因为我们处于这种鸡和蛋的情况 ，我们太大了不能留在这里，但我们太小了负担不起搬迁。 And so we're in this place of waiting because we're in this kind of chicken and egg kind of thing where we're too big to stay here, but we're too small to afford to move.
所以我们就处于这种困境中。 And so we're just in this kind of quandary.
例如，人们仍在搬到堪萨斯城。 For example, people are still moving to Kansas City.
这是人们来的地方，人们来到这里。 This is a place where people are coming, and people are coming here.
我前几天刚接待了一位女士，一个年轻的家庭，他们从西部搬到这里，准备加入堂区。 I just had a woman the other day, a young family that are moving here from back West and are going to join the parish.
你知道，年轻的家庭，她将要有另一个，她怀孕了，对吧？ You know, young family, she's going to have another, she's expecting, right?
所以圣路加的人口统计的令人惊讶之处在于，我们可能有6 0%以上，也许更多，在45岁以下。所以我们非常年轻。 And so what's amazing about the demographic of St. Luke is we're probably 60 plus percent, maybe more, under 45. So we're very young.
你知道，人们想要在礼仪中真实的敬拜和与基督的相遇。 You know, people want authentic worship and an encounter with Christ in the liturgy.
东方和西方也这样做，我不是说它不做，但在做得好的圣体礼中确实有一种确定的相遇。 The East and the West does it too, I'm not saying it doesn't, but there is a definite encounter in the Divine Liturgy done well.
我想，我希望并祈祷人们来这里并确实遇见基督，因为这就是我们在这里的原因。 And I think, I hope and pray that people come and do encounter Christ here because that's why we're here.
最后一件事。 One last thing.
人们在哪里可以找到捐赠链接，或者他们如何能帮助？ Where can people find the link to donate, or how can they help?
是的，所以我们有一个网站，很符合，就是拜占庭式的和小型的。 Yeah, so we have a website that's kind of fitting, just being Byzantine and being small.
我们在那方面不是很花哨。 We aren't very fancy in that way.
网址是byzantinekc.org， It's byzantinekc.org,
在首页上有一个捐赠按钮，可以带他们到电子捐赠页面。 and right on the landing page there's a donate button that takes them to this electronic giving.
我们的许多罗马公教堂区不是那种不可靠的临时场所；它是一个 稳固、有信誉的地方，你可以确信所有的安全措施都在那里。 Many of our Roman Catholic parishes are not a fly-by-night place; it's a solid, reputable place that you can be sure that all the security is there.
如果你想写支票，如果他们想做类似的事情，他们可以寄过来。 If you wanted to write a check, if they wanted to do something like that, they could send it.
只需查找堂区的地址。 Just look up the address of the parish.
我们也有Facebook页面，可以发送到那里。 We have a Facebook page too, and send it there.
但是，任何有帮助的事情都可以，因为我们规模刚好足 够小，有很多年轻人，而且我们还没有完全建立起来。 But yeah, anything that would be helpful, because we're just small enough and a lot of young people, and we just aren't established.
在我在这里的时间里，到六月就是五年了，我们只需要，是的，我们舒适容纳的人数 大约是40人。我们现在挤了将近80人，即使在那些日子，也不是每个人都来。 In this time I've been here, it'll be five years in June, and we just need to, yeah, in a capacity that we comfortably hold probably 40. We're sticking almost 80, and even on those days, not everybody's here.
所以如果我们所有人和我们接待的客人同时出现， 我们可能会超过100人，这就使情况变得困难。 So if we all showed up at the same time with the number of guests we get, we could be over 100, and that just makes it hard.
我们几乎无法进入；那个人必须推开人群才能通过。 We can hardly make the entrance; that phone has to push people out to get through.
好的，神父，谢谢你的款待和带我参观。 Well, Father, thank you for your hospitality and showing me around.
每次我来这里，我总是很幸运地看到像我这个年 龄的其他年轻人，还有来自各行各业的其他人。 Every time I've come here, I've always been blessed to see like other young people actually around my age and just a bunch of other people too from all different walks of life.
神父，我知道你在这里的事工对人们意义重大，所以我希望 我能通过我的频道，通过我的播客，以某种方式提供帮助。 Father, I know that the ministry you're doing here means a lot to the people, and so I hope that I can, with my channel, with my podcast, help in a way.
所以，谢谢你。 So, thank you.
非常感谢。 Thank you very much.
是的，如果我可以说最后一件事：我们不是一个民族性的团 体，所以你不必是斯洛伐克人或乌克兰人才能来，对吧？ Yeah, if I could say one last thing: we are not an ethnic thing, so you don't have to be a Slovak or Ukrainian to come, right?
我们是公教徒，我们欢迎任何人。 We're Catholic, and we'd love to have anybody.
正如你所看到的，多样性证明了这一点，这很美。 As you've seen, the diversity shows that, which is beautiful.
这就是我们所追求的。 That's what we're shooting for.
在我们结束今天的《知识公教》节目之前，我还有最后一件事要说和分享。 Before we end today's episode of Intellectual Catholicism, I do have one last thing to say and to share.
所以，让我们快速做一下。 And so, let's do that real quick.
嗨，我是迈克尔·李神父。 Hi, I'm Father Michael Lee.
我是密苏里州特纳溪拜占庭公教会圣路加堂的管理员 ，今天我只想呼吁你们为帮助我们的搬迁项目祈祷。 I am the administrator of St. Luke Byzantine Catholic Church in Turner Creek, Missouri, and I just wanted to appeal to you today to pray about helping us in our moving project.
在过去的五年里，我一直是圣路加的管理员，在 这段时间里，我们的规模基本上增加了一倍。 I've been the administrator of St. Luke for the last five years, and in that time, we basically have doubled our size.
我们从一个30多人的会众增长到了近80人，我们正在努力寻找一个新的空间，在 那里我们可以扩展和成长，并向任何想来的人提供这种美丽的使徒传统的公教信仰。 We went from a congregation of kind of the low 30s up almost into the 80s, and we're just really trying to find a new space where we can expand and grow and offer this beautiful apostolic brand of Christianity to anybody that wants to come.
所以我们只是在呼吁你们的帮助。 So we are just appealing for your help.
如果你想参与并帮助我们搬迁和成长，能够拥有这种 独特而美丽的公教表达方式，请访问我们的网站。 If you would like to get in and help us to move and to grow and to be able to have this unique and beautiful expression of Catholicism, please visit our website.
网址是byzantinkc.org， It's byzantinkc.org,
在首页上有一个捐赠按钮，它将带你到另一个网站，你可以在那里进行电子捐赠。 and on the landing page, there's a donate button that will take you to another website that you can donate electronically.
我们真的很感谢你能做的任何事情，我们正在为你祈祷。 We really appreciate anything that you can do, and we're praying for you.
愿神祝福。 God bless.