哦，这太不可思议了。 Oh, this is incredible.
欢迎，抹大拉人大教堂。 Welcome, Cathedral to Magdelene.
嗨，我是马特。 Hey, I'm Matt.
这是「十分钟圣经时间」。 This is the 10-Minute Bible Hour.
无论你是否对基督教感兴趣，我敢打赌你一定听说过罗马天主教和新教。 And whether you're into the whole Christianity thing or not, I bet you've heard of Roman Catholicism and Protestantism.
这是基督教信仰的两种不同表达形式。 These are two different expressions of Christian faith.
它们在历史上算是三大主要基督教派别中的两个。 They're kind of two of the three really big ones historically.
而新教是一个大约有500年历史的信仰表达形式，它源自罗马天主教。 And Protestantism is about a 500-year-old expression that was born out of Roman Catholicism.
当时一些神学问题正在酝酿，人们对这些问题展开辩论。 Some Theological issues were percolating and people were debating them.
最终，这两个群体决定，我们在这里做的是不同的事情。 And ultimately, these two groups ended up deciding, we're just doing different things here.
我们的想法不同。 We think different stuff.
于是就有了这种分道扬镳。 And there's this parting of ways.
所以像路德宗、循道宗、浸信会，这些都是不同类型的新教徒。 So like your Lutherans, your Methodists, your Baptists, these are all different types of Protestants.
而罗马天主教则继续保持一种单一的整体形式。 Whereas Roman Catholicism continues to be kind of a singular monolithic thing.
我一直与罗马天主教徒保持着很好的关系。 I've always had pretty good relationships with Roman Catholics.
我一直对罗马天主教抱有相当高的敬意，但前几天我突然意识到，我所了解的关 于罗马天主教的几乎一切都是由其他新教徒教给我的、告诉我的、向我解释的。 I've always had pretty high regard for Roman Catholicism, but it occurred to me the other day that pretty much everything I know about Roman Catholicism has been taught to me, told to me, explained to me by other Protestants.
但是，你知道，在某种程度上，去听听罗马天主教徒的想法，通过与一位真正的罗 马天主教徒在一座真正的罗马天主教堂中交谈来了解他们的所作所为，这会很酷。 But, you know, at some point, it'd be pretty cool to go and hear what Roman Catholics think and see what they do by talking to an actual Roman Catholic in an actual Roman Catholic church.
所以，我联系了一大批不同的教堂，其中有一个回复了我，那就是盐 湖城的抹大拉人大教堂，实际上这正是我暗自希望能回复我的地方。 So, I put out feelers with a whole bunch of different churches, and one got back to me called the Cathedral of the Magdelene in Salt Lake City, which is actually secretly who I was really hoping would get back to me.
他们很友善地接受了来自互联网的一个陌生新教徒 ，并邀请我带着摄像机去那里看看会发生什么。 And they were kind enough to take a flyer on some Protestant stranger from the Internet and invite me there with a camera to see what happens.
所以我去了，我与马丁·迪亚兹神父会面，然后，这就是发生的事情。 So I went, I met with Father Martin Diaz, and, well, here's what happened.
你好。 Hello.
迪亚兹神父？ Father Diaz?
嗨！我说得对吗？ Hi! Am I saying that right?
是的。 Yes.
「神父」是正确的称呼吗？ Father is the correct title?
那是正确的称呼。 That's the correct title.
好的。 All right.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我是马特·惠特曼。 I'm Matt Whitman.
很高兴见到你，先生。 Nice to meet you, sir.
马特，很高兴见到你。 Matt, great to meet you.
我进来的时候一无所知。 I'm walking in here clueless.
我有数不清的东西要学。 I have a billion things to learn.
当我走进来时，我看到的第一件事是你们教堂的正面与我的教堂的正面看起来很不一样。 And the first thing that I see as I walk up is that the front of your church looks a lot different than the front of my church.
你能给我讲解一下这意味着什么吗？ Can you just walk me through what this means?
这被称为门楣浮雕。 This is called a tympanum.
好的。 Okay.
当然，那里有十字架。 And, of course, the crucifix there.
前面是耶稣。 And you have Jesus in front.
这是耶稣，大祭司，或者说是耶稣基督，君王。 And this is Jesus, the high priest, or Jesus Christ, the king.
当然，这个概念是你被基督欢迎。 The idea, of course, is that you're being welcomed by Christ.
基督坐在世界之上，因此进入基督，他是普世的救恩。 Christ is sitting on top of the world, and so that coming into Christ, who is the universal salvation.
那些是不是像巴黎圣母院风格的正宗石像鬼？ Are those, like, straight-up Notre Dame-style gargoyles up there?
它们现在其实是假的。 They're actually fake now.
哦，是吗？ Oh, they are?
所以它们已经严重损坏了。 So they deteriorated so much.
从1909年到1993年我们进行修复时，它们 被拆下来，用混凝土重新制作，然后再装回去。 from 1909 to 1993 when we did the restoration, that they were taken down and fashioned out of concrete and then put back up.
所以它们不再具有石像鬼的功能。 So they do not work as gargoyles.
石像鬼是排水管。 Gargoyles are downspouts.
是的，或者它们看起来像那样，像鹰头狮或者一些石像鬼甚至看起来有点像恶魔。 Yeah, or they can look like that, like griffins and like some of the gargoyles that can even look kind of like demonic.
是的，为了驱邪，有点像吓跑邪恶的东西。 Yeah, to keep away the evil, kind of scare off the evil.
好的，所以那有点像欧洲民间传说之类的遗留物。 Okay, so that's kind of a leftover from like European folklore and stuff like that.
嗯，我很高兴你们保留了它们，因为它们确实令人惊叹。 Well, I'm glad you stuck with it because they're incredible.
好的，所以我正在看的这个彩色玻璃窗... Okay, so this stained glass window up here that I'm looking at...
玫瑰窗。 The rose window.
它被称为玫瑰窗。 It is called the rose window.
它就像巴黎圣母院的一样。 It's like Notre Dame.
是的。 Yes.
如果它们是圆形的，它们都被称为玫瑰窗。 They're all called rose windows if they're round.
哦！是的，所以是圆形的玫瑰花瓣。 Oh! Yes, so the round rose petal.
而且它的概念就是玫瑰花瓣。 And the idea of that is the rose petal.
所以这就是为什么它被称为玫瑰窗。 So that's why it's called a rose window.
看，我已经开始学到东西了。 See, I'm already learning things.
我以为它只是一个特殊的昵称，就像是这个地方特有的独特东西。 I thought it was just like some special nickname that was like the special unique thing for just this one place.
像玫瑰色或者什么的，但不是。 Like rose color or something, but no.
看，这就是为什么你要提问。 See, this is why you ask questions.
我猜你必须有一个建筑能够支撑那么大的，你知道 ，那种尺寸的开放空间，以容纳那种彩色玻璃。 I guess you have to have a building that can support that big of an, you know, that size of an open space in order to accommodate that kind of stained glass.
对。 Right.
里面也有彩色玻璃吗？ Is there stained glass inside too?
是的。 Yes.
我们可以去四处看看吗？ Can we go poke around?
当然。 Sure.
好的，我们走吧。 All right, let's do it.
我们走。 Let's go.
欢迎，抹大拉人大教堂。 Welcome Cathedral to Magdelene.
欢迎。 Welcome.
太壮观了。 Be stunning.
顶部是天使，下面是这里的地面，底部是大地。 Angels at the top and down here the ground and the earth here at the bottom.
建造这个花了多长时间？ How long did it take to make this?
所以建造这座大教堂花了10年时间。 So it took 10 years to build the cathedral.
它始建于1899年，完工于1909年。我该从哪里开始呢？ It was started in 1899 and was completed in 1909. Where do I even start?
这里有太多的图像内容。 There's so much going on in here in terms of imagery.
也许你可以先带我了解一下这些彩色玻璃，它们代表什么，以及它们背后的故事。 Maybe you could just walk me through the stained glass and what these represent and the story behind them to start with.
我们从哪里开始讲解这个呢？ Where do we start with this thing?
侧面的窗户是玫瑰经的奥秘。 The side windows are the mysteries of the rosary.
所以它从天使与马利亚、马利亚拜访伊丽莎白、马利亚和约瑟、耶稣 的诞生、在圣殿中的奉献礼开始，然后是12岁的耶稣在圣殿中。 So it starts with the angel with Mary, Mary going to Elizabeth, Mary and Joseph, the birth of Jesus, the presentation in the temple, and then Jesus at 12 years old in the temple.
在这一侧，然后是玫瑰经中三个不在圣经中的奥秘。 On this side, then, the three mysteries of the Rosary that are not in the Bible.
这个奥秘是圣灵降临在使徒身上，五旬节。 This mystery is the Holy Spirit coming upon the Apostles, the Pentecost.
然后是最后两个，马利亚被接升天，以及马利亚被加冕为天地之后。 And then the last two, Mary taken into heaven, and Mary crowned as Queen of Heaven and Earth.
所以这就是玫瑰经的奥秘。 So that's the mysteries of the Rosary.
还有玫瑰窗，再次强调，玫瑰窗在这种大教堂中是经典的设计。 And the rose window, again, rose windows are classical in this kind of a cathedral.
中心是圣西西莉亚，她以音乐著称。 In the center is St. Cecilia, and she is known for music.
所以她被描绘成拿着一种初级的风琴，因为那里是风琴阁楼所在的位置。 So she's depicted with kind of a rudimentary organ because that's where the organ loft is.
所以圣西西莉亚是音乐的守护圣人，这就是为什么她在那里的原因。 So St. Cecilia is the patron saint of music and that's why she's in there.
我在学习东西。 I'm learning stuff.
福斗士乐队有一张专辑或一首歌叫《圣西西莉亚 》，我之前完全不知道他们为什么选这个名字。 The Foo Fighters have an album or a song called St. Cecilia and I had no idea how they pick on that.
现在我明白了。 Now I get it.
我从你们的玫瑰窗中学到了关于摇滚音乐的知识。 I'm learning things about rock music from your rose window.
如果你愿意，可以说这种杰作就在于行动中。 Kind of the masterpiece, if you will, is in the act.
所以耶稣具有神性，百分之百神性，百分之百人性。 So Jesus is Divine, 100% divine, 100% human.
所以是大地、人类和神性。 So it's earth, humankind, and divinity.
是天空、天堂和大地汇聚在一起。 It's the sky, the heavens, and the earth coming together.
你正在进入神圣空间，在那里，即使我们脚踏大地，也能触及天堂。 You're entering sacred space, which is where you, even though we're grounded on earth, are touching heaven.
所以对我们来说，圣餐是三个事件合而为一。 So for us, the Eucharist is three events in one.
它是最后的晚餐。 So it's the Last Supper.
所以每一台弥撒都是最后的晚餐。 So every mass is the Last Supper.
每一台弥撒都在当下，每一台弥撒都是天上的盛宴。 Every Mass is in the present moment, and every Mass is the banquet in heaven.
你说那个词「是」，带着极大的强调。 You're saying that word, is, with tremendous emphasis.
确实如此。 It is.
只有一个事件。 There's only one event.
只有一次献祭。 There's only one sacrifice.
它不是那个事件的重复。 It's not a repetition of that event.
它不是追忆。 It's not a recollection.
它是那个事件的超时间版本。 It's an atemporal version of that event.
它就是最后的晚餐。 It is the Last Supper.
只有一次献祭。 There's only one sacrifice.
你看到我这个新教徒的大脑在努力理解吗？ Do you see my Protestant brain trying to wrap it?
对。 Right.
所以是十字架。 So it's the cross.
他只为所有人死了一次。 He only died once for all.
一次而永远。 Once for all.
而最后的晚餐是十字架的无血献祭。 And the Last Supper is the unbloody sacrifice of the cross.
太迷人了。 Fascinating.
所以这是我的身体，这是我的血，在十字架上献出。 So this is my body, this is my blood, which is offered on the cross.
是他的身体和血救赎了我们。 It's his body and blood that redeems us.
他的死亡。 His death.
所以每次我们举行弥撒，天堂和大地就融合在一起，无论你是在抹 大拉人大教堂，还是，你知道，在一个…所以这都是一台弥撒。 And so every time we have Mass, Heaven and Earth come together, whether you're in the Cathedral of the Madeleine or, you know, in a... So it's all one mass.
这都是一台弥撒。 It's all one mass.
好的。 Okay.
都是一个事件。 All one event.
但它超出了我们的… But it's outside of our...
所以我们把世界抛在脑后。 So we left the world behind.
我们超越了时间和空间。 We left time and space.
我们把我们的世界留在外面。 We left our world outside.
无论我们是在这个空间，还是在柬埔寨或非洲的某个村庄， 或者任何其他国家，都是同样的天堂和大地融合在一起。 And whether we're in this space or we're in a village someplace in Cambodia or Africa or whatever country that would be, it's the same heaven and earth coming together.
所以我们的建筑和艺术，有助于描绘这一点。 And so our architecture and art, Help to depict that.
是的。 Yeah.
帮助我们理解这一点。 Help us to understand that.
但这不是必需的。 But it's not necessary.
这有道理吗？ Does that make sense?
是的。 Yeah.
我想和你一起彻底深入了解其中的机制。 I want to go all the way down the rabbit hole with you on the mechanics of that.
也许当我们坐下来时，我可以更多地向你请教这是如何发生的。 Maybe when we sit down, I can pick your brain more about how that happens.
所以这是一座十字形教堂。 So this is a cruciform church.
好的。 Okay.
对吧？ Right?
所以你在那里有十字架，然后这是一个十字架。 So you've got the crucifix up there, and then this is a crucifix.
所以这个中的祭坛，这是这个教堂的建筑特点，不是说祭坛必须在这里。 So the altar in this, so this is architectural for this church, not, the altar doesn't have to be here.
但在这种建筑中，祭坛就在心脏的位置。 But in this architecture, the altar is where the heart is.
所以神从他心中倾注的爱来自祭坛。 So the pouring out of God's love from his heart comes from the altar.
所以这是恩典的礼物从祭坛流出。 So this is the gifts of grace flow from the altar.
而在心脏后面是头部。 And behind the heart is the head.
在大教堂中，使大教堂成为大教堂的是座椅，主教座椅。 In the cathedral, what makes the cathedral to be a cathedral is the chair, the cathedral.
每个教区都有一座拥有主教座椅的大教堂。 Every diocese has a cathedral with a cathedral.
但不是每个教会都有。 But not every church.
不是每个教会都有，只有大教堂才有。 Not every church, just cathedrals.
每个教区都有一个。 There's one in every diocese.
好的。 Okay.
所以那是我们盐湖城教区的主教座椅。 And so that's our chair for the diocese of Salt Lake City.
谁坐在那把椅子上？ Who sits in that chair?
那是专属于我们教区主教的。 So that's uniquely the bishop of our diocese.
那是他独有的座椅。 That's his chair, uniquely.
所以这座椅放在头部位置，因为我们教区的首领是主教。 So the chair sits at the head because the head of our diocese is the bishop.
那么他每周都在这里举行弥撒吗？ So does he celebrate Mass weekly here?
他经常在这里吗？ Is he around a lot?
这究竟是怎么运作的？ How does that even work?
嗯，幸运的是他不经常在这里。 Well, luckily he's not around a lot.
不，忘了我说的吧。 No. Forget that.
所以他不是每个星期日都在这里，但很多星期日都在，还有我们举行的特别庆典时也会来。 So he's here not every Sunday, but a lot of Sundays, and then the special celebrations that we have.
那么他在这里时是他主持那些礼仪，还是你来主持？ So does he conduct those services when he's here, or do you?
不，他来主持。 No, he does.
好的。 Okay.
上面看起来像欧洲的纹章。 It looks like a European coat of arms up above.
没错。 Correct.
这代表什么？ What does this mean?
所以…每个纹章都是为了从地区或个人中提取一些特点。 So... Each coat of arms is meant to pull something out of the area or the person.
这个纹章是一个三部分的纹章，反映了他的身份。 This coat of arms is a three-part coat of arms coming out of who he is.
下面的格言会随着主教的不同而改变。 And the saying underneath the motto changes from bishop to bishop.
看起来有很多变动的部分。 It seems like there's a lot of moving parts.
你从这里教导吗？ Do you teach from here?
经文是从讲道台宣读的。 The scripture is read from the anvil.
只有经文… Only scripture...
和讲道、讲经是从那里进行的。 and sermons, homilies are given from there.
我们从讲台的桌子上领受神的道。 We feed on the word of God from the table of the ambo.
ambo是什么意思？ What does ambo mean?
讲坛。 Pulpit.
它只是意味着站立处。 It just means stand.
是希腊语或拉丁语中的某个华丽词汇。 Some fancy word in either Greek or Latin.
这听起来不错。 That sounds good to me.
我不确定。 I don't know.
所以我们谈论圣餐的两张桌子。 So we talk about the two tables of the Eucharist.
你回到使徒行传。 You go back to Acts of the Apostles.
他们做了什么？ What did they do?
当他们聚集擘饼时… When they met for the breaking of the bread...
他们诵读经文，当然对他们来说就是我们现在称为旧约的希伯来经文。 They read the scriptures, which of course for them was what we call the Old Testament, the Hebrew scriptures.
他们诵读经文并擘饼。 They read from the scriptures and the breaking of the bread.
所以每台弥撒都是诵读经文，擘饼。 So every mass is reading the scripture, breaking the bread.
那么如果这是你们在每台弥撒中所做的，而每台弥撒 都是相同的，那么每个人总是一起领受共融，圣餐。 So then if that's what you do in every mass and every mass is the same, then everyone is always taking communion, the Eucharist, together.
是的。 Yes.
所以我们合而为一，正如耶稣所说，愿他们都合而为一，像父与我合而为一。 So we are at one, as Jesus says, may they all be one as the Father and I are one.
所以在共融中，我们是合一的。 So in communion, we are one.
因为它是一个圣事，它实现了它所表达的内容。 Because it's a sacrament, it does what it says it does.
它有一个超越你现实的实体。 It has a reality that's beyond your reality.
它使你合一。 It makes you one.
这几乎就像是在翻译两种语言… It's almost like translating two languages from...
所有我一生中所接触的语言，你知道，新教的象征主义观念，我们认为，你知 道，这是一个独立的事物，我们纪念的是我们视为十字架上的一个单一事件。 all of the language that I've been raised around my whole life and in, you know, the Protestant notion of symbolism, that we are, you know, this is a separate thing and we're commemorating an event that we would view as a singular event at the cross.
所以这很迷人。 And so it's fascinating.
它在挑战我，我欣赏那个单一事件的普遍性的想法，因为，当然，十字架是一个事件。 It's pushing me and I appreciate the idea of the universality of that singular event because, well, of course the cross was one event.
我只是从未真正想过圣餐也同样是一个单一事件。 I've just never really thought about the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist being a singular event as well.
你是从这里服侍的吗？ Do you serve from here?
从任何祭坛。 From any altar.
所以弥撒的第一部分，我们在开始时有座椅做祈祷。 And so the first part of the Mass, we have the chair for the prayers at the beginning.
然后是经文、讲道讲经。 Then the scriptures, the sermon homily.
然后我们进入第二部分，即圣餐。 Then we move into the second part, which is the Eucharist.
所以饼和酒是在祭坛上准备的。 So the bread and wine is prepared on the altar.
通常我们会举行饼和酒的游行仪式。 Usually we have a procession with the bread and wine.
然后是圣餐祷告，祝圣祷告，做耶稣在最后晚餐上所做的事。 And then the Eucharistic prayer, the consecratory prayer, doing what Jesus did at the Last Supper.
这是我的身体。 This is my body.
这是我的血。 This is my blood.
所以这一切都在祭坛上进行。 So that all takes place on the altar.
然后那部分结束了。 And then that part is over.
我们进入共融部分，从主祷文开始。 We move into the communion part, which starts with the Lord's Prayer.
在我们的礼仪中也有平安的交换。 There's an exchange of peace that we do also in our rite.
然后从祭坛上，我们把圣餐带给人们。 And then from the altar, we take communion to the people.
这是，所以我们应该做的是人们应该来到祭坛领受圣餐。 And this is, so what we're supposed to be doing is that the people are supposed to come to the altar to receive communion.
就像你会到家里的餐桌前一样。 Like you would come to the table at home.
你坐在桌边吃饭。 You sit down at the table to eat.
所以他们应该是来的。 So they're supposed to be coming.
所以游行的理念是你来到祭坛前吃饭。 So the idea of the procession is that you're coming to eat at the altar.
所以他们在这里中间排队。 So they line up right down the middle here.
他们排队，但当然他们不会走到祭坛前，因为，你知道，只是出于后勤考虑。 They line up, but of course they don't come up to the altar because it's, you know, just logistically.
但那是过去当你有祭坛栏杆时，人们从祭坛栏杆领受圣餐。 But that was in the past when you had an altar rail around where people took communion from the altar rail.
栏杆是祭坛的延伸。 The rail was an extension of the altar.
所以他们排队前进因为这是祭坛的呼召。 So they come in procession because it's an altar call.
再次，那个词语的意思有点不同。 Again, that language means something a little different.
这是祭坛的呼召。 It's an altar call.
所以如果你相信耶稣，如果耶稣是你的救主，如果你想领受耶稣的身体和血，就上前来。 So if you believe in Jesus, if Jesus is your Savior, if you want to receive the body and blood of Jesus, come on up.
那就是我们会那样说的方式。 That's what we'll say it that way.
所以一个未经坚振礼的新教徒可以领圣餐吗？ So a non-confirmed Protestant could take communion?
不。所以如果你相信并且已经接受了坚振礼。 No. So if you believe and you've been confirmed.
而且，是的，你签署了天主教教义，你可以来。 And, yeah, you signed a Catholic doctrine, you can come in.
好的，好的，我很高兴。 All right, all right, I'm glad.
因为就是那个。 Because it's that one.
我并不是想贪心。 I wasn't trying to get greedy.
不，不，因为那是那种合一性。 No, no, because it was that oneness.
如果我们要成为全部，如果大家都是一体的，那么我们在教义上也需要合一。 If we're going to be all, if it's everybody one, then we all doctrinally need to be one.
好的。 Okay.
好的，所以有，我必须承认，可能有一些人已经接受了初领圣体。 Okay, so there's, I must admit, there's probably some people that have received First Communion.
一些真正狡猾的人。 Some really sneaky ones.
我们在圣体龛中保存圣体。 And we preserved the Blessed Sacrament in a tabernacle.
哦，这就是这个吗？ Oh, is that what this is?
就在这后面。 Which is behind here.
我们可以去… We can go...
让我给你看圣体龛。 Let me show you the tabernacle.
是的，我很想看看。 Yeah, I'd love to see it.
所以这里的圣体龛是我们存放圣体的地方。 So the tabernacle here is where we keep the blessed sacrament.
我们有一盏灯让人们知道。 We have a light that lets people know.
它是剩余的圣餐。 And it's the communion that's left over.
你不能逆转已经是基督的身体和血的实体变化吗？ And you can't untransubstantiate what is already the body and blood of Christ?
你不能逆转实体变化。 You cannot untransubstantiate.
所以一旦它成为圣餐，它就是圣餐。 So once it's the Eucharist, it is the Eucharist.
这发生在那里？ Which happens there?
那里。 There.
所以一旦你说了祷告，它就是耶稣。 So once you say the prayer, it is Jesus.
所以这里面的都是祷告后的。 So what is in here is all post-prayer.
而且都是祷告后的。 And it's all post-prayer.
所以我们在这里保存它并使用它。 So we preserve that in here and we use it.
然后几个世纪以来，人们说，嗯，你知道，如果我相信那 是那边的耶稣，那么我相信这里有耶稣，我要来祈祷。 And then over the centuries, people said, well, you know, if I believe that was Jesus over there, then I believe there's Jesus here and I'm going to come and pray.
那么，我要到哪里来祈祷？ Well, where am I going to come and pray?
在空荡荡的建筑物里祈祷？ Pray in an empty building?
不，我要来祈祷，然后我要点燃一支蜡烛，然后 ，你知道，现在2000年后，我们在这里。 No, I'm going to come and pray, and then I'm going to light a candle, and then, you know, and now 2,000 years later, here we are.
所以这在罗马天主教神学中，这是基督临在的一部分。 So this is, in Roman Catholic theology, this is part of the presence of Christ.
对，对。 Right, right.
在这个教会中，它在这里，再次，因为它属于，我的意思是 ，在某种程度上，你会说头部就在这个十字形中，你知道。 And in this church, it's here, again, because it belongs, I mean, in a way, you would say that the head is right here in this cruciform, you know.
所以再次，一切都是基督。 So again, so everything is Christ.
基督是祭坛。 Christ is the altar.
基督是人民。 Christ is the people.
基督是圣餐。 Christ is the Eucharist.
一切。 Everything.
一切都说它是耶稣。 Everything says it's Jesus.
你把所有这些联系起来，比任何人解释得都要好。 You're connecting the dots with all of that for me better than anybody ever has.
所以谢谢你的耐心。 So thank you for your patience.
不客气。 You're welcome.
对于我这些五年级水平的问题。 With my fifth grade level questions here.
这里还有其他引起我注意的东西。 There's something else that stands out to me back here.
那是一个圣髑匣。 So that's a reliquary.
我有点怀疑它可能是。 I kind of suspected it might be.
所以那是一个圣髑匣。 So that's a reliquary.
而圣髑匣是一种… And a reliquary is as something...
基于圣人的东西。 based on a saint.
好的。 Okay.
所以我们说那是圣抹大拉马利亚的圣髑，她是我们教会的守护圣人。 So what we say is that that is a relic of St. Mary Magdalene, who is the patron saint of our church.
抹大拉人大教堂是抹大拉马利亚。 Cathedral of the Madeleine is Mary Magdalene.
里面有一些几千年前的东西？ There's something a couple thousand years old in there?
是的。 Yeah.
所以是一小块骨头碎片，这就是我们所知道的全部。 So a little tiny bone fragment, and that's all we know.
好的。 Okay.
我的意思是，我们只是… I mean, we only...
有那个，并且相信那就是那个。 have that and it's believed that that's that.
而那被藏在… And that's tucked away in the...
藏在，你知道，百合花徽章后面。 Tucked away in the, you know, behind the fleur-de-lis.
好的，明白了。 Okay, all right.
然后抹大拉马利亚，当然，是在十字架脚下的。 And then Mary Magdalene, of course, is at the foot of the cross.
所以抹大拉马利亚在教会中出现三四次。 So Mary Magdalene appears three or four times in the church.
这是一个提醒还是有一个属灵的实际？ Is this a reminder or is there a spiritual reality?
这是一个提醒，我们是相连的。 It's a reminder that we're connected.
我们与我们的守护圣人相连。 We're connected to our patron saint.
而且恰好我们的守护圣人认识耶稣。 And it just turns out that our patron saint knew Jesus.
尽管她是得胜教会的一部分，那个圣髑，是否意味着她的临在方式与基督的临在相同？ Even though she's a part of the church triumphant, that relic, does that mean that she is present in the same way that Christ is present?
哦，不，完全不是。 Oh, no, not at all.
所以不会更多，她会像任何其他信徒一样。 So no more, she would be, Like any other believer.
所以只是敬重这是耶稣。 So it's just reverence that this is Jesus.
所以她在这里。 So she is here.
她被纪念。 She is remembered.
对。 Right.
好的。 Okay.
对。 Right.
这只是为了建立一种联系。 And it's just meant to make a connection.
而且大多数人可能甚至不知道那是圣抹大拉马利亚的圣髑。 And most people probably don't even know that that's a relic of St. Mary Magdalene.
这被称为圣油柜。 This is called the Ambry.
圣油柜。 Ambry.
好的。 Okay.
所以每个教会都有一个圣油柜，这是存放圣油的地方。 So every church has an Ambry, which is where the holy oils, are kept.
所以这些是油，这些瓮实际上每年都被祝福，里面的油是由主教祝福的。 So these are the oils, the urns that are actually blessed every year by the, the oil inside is blessed by the bishop.
这位主教？ This bishop?
这位主教。 This bishop.
好的。 Okay.
这油是从哪里来的？ And where does the oil come from?
它是由什么制成的？ What's it made of?
它是橄榄油。 It's olive oil.
橄榄油，然后圣油膏中加入了香脂香料。 Olive oil and then the chrism has a balsam perfume in it.
所以它们都是同一种油。 So it's all the same oil.
是否有某种属灵的转变或交流正在发生？ Is there some sort of spiritual transformation or transaction that's occurring?
祝福是针对每种油的特定情况。 The blessing is is for each oil in particular.
好的。 Okay.
病人用的油是一种医治的祝福。 The oil for the sick is a healing blessing.
慕道者用的油，意思是那些将要进入教会的人，是一 种，嗯，慕道者的油是一种属灵的驱除邪恶的祝福。 The oil of the catechumens, meaning those who are coming into the church, is a, well, catechumens are kind of a spiritual kind of get out the evil blessing.
好的。 Okay.
你会的。 You will.
石像鬼。 The gargoyles.
是的。 Yeah.
然后圣油膏是基督之油，是坚振礼、授职礼的膏油，那是封印和使人形同基督的油。 And then the chrism oil is the Christ oil, is the anointing oil of confirmation, ordination, and that, the sealing and the configuring to Christ oil.
在那油中，当它被祝福时，主教对着油呼气，因为他的灵，就 像基督呼气，我的意思是，神向尘土吹气创造了亚当和夏娃。 And in that oil, when it's blessed, the bishop breathes on the oil because his spirit, like Christ breathed, I mean, God breathed into the dirt and got Adam and Eve.
所以主教向其中呼气，他的灵就住在其中，基督的灵住在那油中，因为他对我们来说是 基督，你知道，如果你愿意这么说的话，他是基督的代理人，是站在基督位置上的人。 So the bishop breathes into it for his spirit then resides, Christ's spirit resides in that oil because he is Christ for us in the sense of, you know, a vicar of Christ, if you will, one who stands in the place of Christ.
所以它是油而不是水，是因为参考了旧约中的膏抹吗？ So is it oil instead of water because of a reference to the Old Testament anointing?
所以当他们膏立一位王时，撒母耳膏立大卫，他 打破盛油的角，将油倒在他头上，就是这样。 So when they anointed a king, Samuel anoints David, he breaks the horn of oil, pours it on top of him, and so that's that.
在雅各书中，叫长老们来，让他们为你祷告，用油膏抹。 In James, call the presbyters, have them pray over you, and anoint it with oil.
这里是另一个圣髑吗？ Is this another relic here?
这是真十字架的圣髑。 This is a relic of the true cross.
所以这是，在天主教神学中，我们有耶稣十字架的很小的碎片。 So this is, in Catholic theology, so we have very small pieces of the cross of Jesus.
所以那是，我们有一个。 So that's, we have one.
所以这会是圣海伦娜在4世纪找回的那个。 So this would be the one recovered by St. Helena in the 4th century.
对，在4世纪。 Right, in the 4th century.
所以他们说那些碎片已经分散到世界各地，我们有一个。 So they say that pieces of that have been spread throughout the world, and we have one.
是的。 Yes.
我的意思是，我内心的历史学家只是想说，嗯，你怎么知道那个，它是怎么运作的？ I mean, the historian in me just wanted to be like, well, how do you know that and how did it work?
我们有一个。 We have one.
所以我们来到这里。 So we come down here.
洗礼池位于十字架脚下有什么意义吗？ Is there significance to the baptismal font being at the foot of the cross?
所以洗礼池是为进入教会的入口。 So the baptismal font is for the entrance into the church.
好的。 Okay.
所以它不一定要在教会的入口处。 So it doesn't have to be here at the entrance of the church.
好的。 Okay.
但我们在1993年的修复中能够... But we were able, in our 1993 restoration...
把洗礼池放在这里，因为它是第一个圣事。 to place the baptismal font here because it's the first sacrament.
所以它是一个入门圣事。 So it's a sacrament of initiation.
那么你如何进入教会？ So how do you get into the church?
你受洗了，对吧？ You were baptized, right?
我从未想过它是按时间顺序的。 I just never thought of it as being chronological.
在你受洗之前，你不是教会的成员。 Before you're baptized, you're not a member of the church.
你不是基督身体的成员，对吗？ You're not a member of the body of Christ, correct?
正确。 Correct.
对吧？ Right?
与其他传统不同？ Different than other traditions?
不，我的意思是，你是个异教徒。 No, I mean, you're a pagan.
你不是基督徒。 You're not a Christian.
这里，我们有我们的告解室。 Here, we have our confessionals.
告诉我关于那个的情况。 Tell me about that.
所以，再次，它们不一定要在它们所在的位置。 So, again, they don't have to be where they are.
但在这个教会中，它们在两侧。 But in this church, they're on either side.
所以，不是每个教会都有一个装饰华丽、木雕的告解室。 So, not every church has an ornate, wood-carved confessional.
我们很幸运。 We're lucky.
好的。 Okay.
在我们的告解室中，有两边。 In our confessional, there are two sides.
所以我不知道。 So I don't know.
我被允许进去吗？ Am I allowed to go in?
你可以进来，只要你是个罪人。 You can come on in, only if you're a sinner.
哦，好的。 Oh, good.
所以在我们的告解室中，祭司坐在一边，人们有一个选择。 So in our confessional, the priest sits on one side, and the people have a choice.
他们可以坐着，面对面交谈，或者跪下通过屏幕匿名说话。 They can sit, talk face-to-face, or kneel and speak anonymously through a screen.
令人惊讶的是，人们会看一眼，打个招呼，然后匿名地跪下。 And surprisingly enough, people will kind of look and say, say hello, and then kneel down anonymously.
哦，真的吗？ Oh, really?
对许多人来说，匿名是，我不是在和这位祭司说话，我是在和神说话。 For many people, the anonymous is, I'm not talking to this priest, I'm talking to God.
祭司只是为神倾听，他们想对神说话，说，好的 ，神，这些是我的罪，这是我需要帮助的地方。 The priest is just listening for God, and they want to talk to God and say, okay, God, these are my sins, and this is where I need help.
其他时候，当人们面对面坐着时，它常常变成更多的对话。 Others, when people sit face-to-face, often it becomes more of a conversation.
这些是我的罪。 These are my sins.
你能给我一些建议和帮助吗？ Can you give me some advice and help?
每次告解需要三分钟，最多五分钟，除非有人真的想要交谈。 And each confession takes three minutes, five at the most, unless someone really wants to talk.
这是一个非常短暂的经历。 It's a very short experience.
进来。 Come in.
我上次告解是什么时候？ When was my last confession?
这些是我的罪。 These are my sins.
这是一个补赎。 Here's a penance.
这是赦免。 Here's the absolution.
我为我的罪感到抱歉。 I'm sorry for my sins.
赦免。 Absolution.
祝福。 Blessing.
什么是补赎？ What is a penance?
所以补赎是你做的某事，表明你是真诚的。 So the penance is something that you do that kind of says you were sincere.
好的，所以像停止做我正在做的坏事？ Okay, so like stopping doing the bad thing I was doing?
嗯，它通常像是诵念一遍主祷文，祈祷一次主祷 文，祈祷一次圣母经，也许祈祷一串玫瑰经。 Well, it's usually like saying an Our Father, praying an Our Father, praying a Hail Mary, praying maybe a decade of the Rosary.
我太无知了。 I'm so ignorant.
那些是什么？ What are those?
所以圣母经？ So the Hail Mary?
是的，或者主祷文。 Yeah, or the Our Father.
主祷文。 The Lord's Prayer.
好的。 Okay.
所以我们很抱歉。 So we're sorry.
我想，什么？ I thought, what?
你不知道主祷文吗？ You don't know the Our Father?
实际上，我知道那个。 I do know that one, actually.
所以我总是说，祈祷一次主祷文和一次圣母经。 So I always say, pray one Our Father and one Hail Mary.
圣母经是来自天使的祷告。 Hail Mary is the prayer that comes from the angel.
万福马利亚，充满恩宠，主与你同在。 Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with you.
天使加百列。 Angel Gabriel.
然后最后一部分是至圣马利亚，神的母亲，现在和我们临终时，为我们罪人祈祷。 And then the last part is Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.
所以它只是请求马利亚，现在和我们临终时为我们祈祷。 So it's just asking Mary, pray for us now at the hour of our death.
所以医治的圣事，人们一年去告解一次，一年两次，一个月一次。 So sacrament of healing, people go to confession once a year, twice a year, once a month.
所以每个人对时间周期都有不同的风格。 So just everyone has a different kind of style for kind of time period.
在Netflix的《夜魔侠》中，这是我关于告解的主要信 息来源，他们似乎总是以「距离你上次告解有多久了」开始。 On Netflix's Daredevil, which is my main source of information about confession, it seems like they always open with how long has it been since your last confession.
那是真的吗？ Is that real?
你会那样做吗？ Do you do that?
所以你会那样做。 So you do that.
为什么你要那样做？ And why do you do it?
我们可以走上前。 We can step up.
我们不必站在这里。 We don't have to stand in here.
我认为这真的很整洁。 I think it's really neat.
所以如果你告诉我，距离我上次告解已经一个月了，我错过了两次去教会。 So if you tell me, It's been one month since my last confession, and I missed going to church twice.
所以那是四次中的两次。 So that's two out of four.
好的。 Okay.
但如果你告诉我距离我上次告解已经一年了，我错过了两次周 日的教会，那是52次中的两次。所以这给你提供了背景？ But if you tell me it's been one year since my last confession, and I missed church Sunday twice, that's two out of 52. So it gives you context?
它给了我一个背景。 It gives me a context.
它有助于理解这个人在做什么以及如何，你知道，在某种意义上它没有任何区别 ，你知道，但如果有人说，距离我上次告解已经一年了，我根本没有去过弥撒。 It helps to understand kind of what the person's working on and how, you know, it doesn't make any difference in the sense, you know, But if someone said, I've been a year since my last confession and I've not been to Mass at all.
那是整整一年的量。 That's a whole year's worth.
你知道，如果你愿意，那是一种不同的回应，不同于 有人说距离上次已经一个月了，我没有去过弥撒。 You know, that's a different kind of response, if you will, than if someone says it's been a month and I haven't been to Mass.
所以这是一种急性的，现在正在发生某事。 So this is a kind of an acute, something's going on right now.
是什么阻止你去参加弥撒？ What is it that's preventing you from going to Mass?
所以我怎样才能帮助你更接近神？ So how can I help you get closer to God?
是的，嗯，对你来说，与可能已经离开你们信仰的人一起工作，和与真 正想在他的领域做对的人一起工作，这是一种完全不同的牧养练习。 Yeah, well, it's an entirely different pastoral exercise for you to work with somebody who's maybe kind of walked away from your faith than somebody who really wants to get it right in his venue.
从宽恕的角度来看，它是相同的。 From the forgiveness point of view, it's the same.
神宽恕你。 God forgives you.
无论你做了什么，神都宽恕你。 Whatever you did, God forgives you.
但如果我能帮助你，我需要一个背景来提供某种，温和 的建议或推动，或者，你知道，你有没有这样想过？ But if I can help you, I need a context to offer some kind of, gentle advice or push or, you know, have you thought about it this way?
从...角度来看，这有道理吗？ Does that make sense in terms of...
有道理。 It does.
那是我能理解的事情。 That's something I can relate to.
所以，一个实际问题。 So, a practical question.
是的。 Yes.
如果这是关闭的，人们能在外面听到你吗？ If this is shut, can people hear you out here?
不能。这是一扇厚重的门。 No. It's a heavy door.
有时候你会排队吗？ Do you get a line sometimes?
哦，是的。 Oh, yeah.
我听告解一个小时。 I hear confessions for an hour.
人们排队等候，他们渴望来这里。 People back up and they're eager to be here.
再说一次，为什么人们要排队？ And again, why do people line up?
这是一种信仰的表白。 It's a profession of faith.
是的，这很有趣。 Yeah, it's interesting.
我们走进那里，也许是建筑，也许是环境，也许某些潜意识被巧妙地融入其中。 We stepped in there, and maybe it's the architecture, maybe it's the environment, maybe something subconscious is brilliantly crafted into this.
也许是因为我也是一个基督徒，但我的倾向是，我想关掉这些，关上门，谈一分钟。 Maybe it's the fact that I'm also a Christian, but my inclination was, I want to turn these off and shut the door and talk for a minute.
时不时地，我们会有非天主教徒来坐下并寻求宽恕。 Every once in a while, we get non-Catholics who come and sit and ask for forgiveness.
也许在我离开之前我们可以谈谈这个。 Maybe we can have a conversation about that before I go.
好的。 Yeah.
这基本上就是我们结束参观的地方，但还有很多其他有趣的东西，很遗憾我无法塞 进这个剪辑里，但这里可能是我个人将从这次经历中带走的两件最重要的事情。 That's pretty much where we wrapped up the tour, but there was so much other interesting stuff that I'm sorry I wasn't able to cram into this edit, but here's maybe the two biggest things that I personally am gonna take away from this experience.
第一件事，在几个关键的罗马天主教假设的背景下，罗马 天主教的思想和实践是如此完全连贯，这让我印象深刻。 Thing number one, I was struck by how utterly cohesive Roman Catholic thought and practice is within the context of a few key Roman Catholic assumptions.
对我来说，很容易陷入这样一种常规，我坐在我的小小思想 堡垒回音室里，想象每个想法与我不同的人都是疯狂的。 It is so easy for me to do this routine where I sit over in my little intellectual thought bunker echo chamber and imagine that everybody who thinks things that are different than me is just crazy.
你怎么能相信那样的事情？ How could you believe something like that?
或者我在智力上不诚实。 Or I Intellectually dishonest.
你在那边对自己撒谎。 You're lying to yourself over there.
但这不仅对大多数人来说不是真的，而且对我而言这很刻薄。 But not only is that not true of most people, it's mean on my part.
现在，现实是大多数观点都植根于几个关键假设。 Now, the reality is that most points of view are rooted in a few key assumptions.
然后，无论之后发生什么，都相当自然地从那些关键假设中流出。 And then whatever happens after that flows pretty naturally out of those key assumptions.
这里也一样。 Same thing here.
如果你回答几个关于耶稣与教会关系的关键问题…… If you answer a few key questions about Jesus' relationship with the church...
如果你以某种方式解释几段关键经文，你就会成为天 主教徒，一切都会完全按照它所展现的方式发展。 if you interpret a couple of pivotal passages a certain way, you're just going to be Catholic, and everything's going to play out exactly the way it's played out.
如果你以稍微不同的方式回答它们，你可能会成为新教徒，它 们会以那种方式发展，或者东正教，它们会以那种方式发展。 If you answer them a slightly different way, you're probably going to be Protestant, and they're going to play out that way, or Orthodox, and they'll play out that way.
无论如何，这是一个令人谦卑、有益的关于那个现实的提醒。 Whatever the case, this was a humbling, helpful reminder about that reality.
在这里真正突出的第二件事是，当你观看视频时你可能会 预见到这一点，但最后的告解部分有点穿透了我的防御。 Second thing that really stood out to me here is, and you could probably see this coming as you were watching the video, but the confession bit there at the end kind of got through the armor for me.
我们在那个房间里待得越久，谈论得越多，我就越开始思 考我自己、思考神、思考我是谁以及我与事物的关系。 The longer we were in that room and talking about it, the more I started to think about myself and about God and who I am and where I'm at with things.
我发现自己真的想尝试一下。 And I found myself really wanting to try that out.
所以迪亚兹神父说接受一个非罗马天主教徒的告解是可以的。 And so Father Diaz said it was fine to take confession from a non-Roman Catholic.
所以在摄像机关闭后，我们关上门，我们做了那个。 So after the cameras turned off, we shut the door and we did that.
我知道如果我想，我可以在任何地方、任何时间与神进行那样的对话。 And I know I can have that conversation anywhere, anytime with God if I want to.
但有些不同。 But there was something different.
让迪亚兹神父参与那次谈话，以及我们进行谈话的环境和背景，都非常有力量。 Very powerful about having Father Diaz sit in on that conversation and about the environment and context in which we had the conversation.
所以非常感谢抹大拉人大教堂主办这次活动。 So huge thank you to the Cathedral of the Madeleine for hosting this.
非常感谢迪亚兹神父花时间诚实回答我的问题，即使他怀疑我们可能会有不同意见，或者 可能会让我感到不舒服，他都直截了当地对我说。你还能向别人要求什么呢？最后，如果 你们中的一些人只是观看这个视频，坐在那里说，为什么你没有在那一点上进一步追问他 ，或者为什么他没有在这一点上对你多一点反驳，实际上我们有这次谈话的下半部分。迪 亚兹神父和我进行了一次坐下来的采访，我们涵盖了我刚才提到的许多关键神学差异。 huge thank you to father diaz for the time the honesty answering my questions even when he suspected we might disagree or maybe it would make me uncomfortable he shot straight with me what more can you ask from somebody than that and finally if some of you just watch this video and you're sitting there saying well why didn't you press him further on that or why didn't he push back on you on this point a little bit more we actually have a second half to this conversation father diaz and i did a sit-down interview where we cover a lot of those key theological differences that I referenced just a second ago.
我认为那次谈话真的值得你花时间。 I think that conversation is really worth your time.
它与我们刚才所做的有点不同的风味。 It has a little different flavor than what we just did.
所以如果你想看那个视频，如果你考虑订阅这个频道，我将非常荣幸。现在 ，由于YouTube的运作方式，这是一个两步过程，你必须点击红色的 订阅按钮，还要点击那个小灰色铃铛，否则他们不会在视频发布时通知你。 And so if you want to catch that video, I would be so honored if you would consider subscribing to this channel, which now, because of the way YouTube works, is kind of a two-fold process where you've got to click the red subscribe button and also hit that little gray bell or else they don't let you know when a video comes out.
但如果你考虑这样做，我将非常感激。 But if you would consider doing that, I would be very grateful.
如果不行，也没关系。 If not, it's cool too.
我只是很高兴你在这里，而且你愿意进行这样的对话。 I'm just glad that you're here and that you're up for conversations like this.
我是马特。 I'm Matt.
这是「十分钟圣经时间」。 This is the 10 Minute Bible Hour.
让我们很快再次这样做。 Let's do this again soon.