- start: 8.707
  end: 20.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But what I want to do right now as we pick back up is continue looking at our evidence from the Bible for the existence of purgatory.
  zh: 但现在我想继续探讨圣经中关于炼狱存在的证据。
- start: 20.97
  end: 58.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Our first set of data showed that it is at least biblically reasonable for the existence of purgatory in light of the fact that a soul can die with defilement but yet still be in God's friendship, namely the guilt of venial sin, a sin not unto death, as St. John testified to in 1 John 5:16-17. Knowing that nothing of defilement can enter into the glory of Heaven, that defilement on the saved soul has to be taken care of.
  zh: 我们的第一组数据表明，炼狱的存在在圣经中至少是合理的，因为一个灵魂可能带着污秽而死，但仍然与神保持友谊，也就是小罪的罪责，一种不至于死的罪，正如约翰在约壹5:16-17中所见证的。我们知道任何污秽都不能进入天堂的荣耀，因此得救灵魂上的污秽必须被清除。
- start: 58.344
  end: 66.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: As we mentioned, whether it happens instantaneously at the judgment seat of Christ or it is a process, we simply do not know; the Church has not defined that.
  zh: 如我们所提到的，这是在基督审判台前瞬间发生还是一个过程，我们并不知道，教会也没有对此下定义。
- start: 68.52
  end: 93.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, before we move to the second set of data, another way to see how it’s at least biblically reasonable is very briefly pondering the Jewish understanding of the existence of Sheol, what we normally refer to as Sheol, coming from the Hebrew, or Hades, coming from the Greek, simply meaning the abode of the dead.
  zh: 现在，在我们转向第二组数据之前，另一个看到它在圣经中至少是合理的方式，就是简单思考一下犹太人对阴间存在的理解，我们通常称之为阴间，来自希伯来语，或称冥府，来自希腊语，简单来说就是死人的居所。
- start: 93.984
  end: 99.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In the abode of the dead, you had souls experiencing eternal torment and punishment, namely hell.
  zh: 在死人的居所中，有些灵魂经历永恒的折磨和惩罚，也就是地狱。
- start: 100.054
  end: 120.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But in that same abode, in the afterlife, you also had, before the ascension of Christ, souls existing in a state of natural bliss, in a state of waiting anticipation for Heaven, namely the righteous souls of the Old Testament.
  zh: 但在同一个居所，在来世中，在基督升天之前，也有灵魂存在于一种自然福乐的状态，一种等待盼望天堂的状态，也就是旧约中义人的灵魂。
- start: 121.363
  end: 127.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: According to our tradition, Adam and Eve would have repented, and in the Eastern part of the Church, they are referred to as Saint Adam and Saint Eve.
  zh: 根据我们的传统，亚当和夏娃已经悔改，在东方教会中，他们被称为圣亚当和圣夏娃。
- start: 127.988
  end: 141.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But you know, Abraham, Moses, and David, and all those Old Testament heroes, when they died, they died in friendship with God and faith, in anticipation of the coming Messiah.
  zh: 但你知道，亚伯拉罕、摩西、大卫和所有那些旧约英雄，当他们死的时候，都是在与神的友谊和信心中死去，期待着弥赛亚的到来。
- start: 141.415
  end: 152.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, they were not existing in the beatific vision, precisely because the beatific vision was closed off to humanity due to the original sin of Adam and Eve.
  zh: 然而，他们并不存在于真福直观中，正是因为真福直观由于亚当和夏娃的原罪对人类关闭了。
- start: 153.038
  end: 162.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, the righteous souls of the Old Testament, witnessed to by the author of Hebrews in Hebrews chapter 11, give us a litany of those Old Testament heroes.
  zh: 因此，希伯来书作者在希伯来书第11章中见证的旧约义人的灵魂，给我们列举了那些旧约英雄。
- start: 162.821
  end: 167.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They were in a state of existence in the afterlife, neither Heaven nor Hell.
  zh: 他们在来世处于一种既非天堂也非地狱的存在状态。
- start: 169.274
  end: 181.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Although the Church would not say that is purgatory—the Church wouldn't go that far—nevertheless, it does show the reasonableness of the existence of purgatory.
  zh: 虽然教会不会说那就是炼狱——教会不会做出这样的论断——但这确实显示了炼狱存在的合理性。
- start: 181.323
  end: 198.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It can serve as a building block in dialoguing with our Protestant brothers and sisters and saying, Look, here’s a state of existence in the afterlife that’s neither Heaven nor Hell, a state of waiting in anticipation very similar to our understanding of purgatory.
  zh: 这可以作为与我们新教弟兄姐妹对话的基础，说：看，这里有一种来世的存在状态，既非天堂也非地狱，一种等待期盼的状态，与我们对炼狱的理解非常相似。
- start: 198.391
  end: 199.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it is at least biblically reasonable.
  zh: 所以这在圣经中至少是合理的。
- start: 199.992
  end: 222.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now we move to our second set of data from the Bible, and that is there are three biblical passages that I want us to reflect upon that seem to indicate a purifying state of existence after death, a purifying state of existence for a soul that’s saved, even after death.
  zh: 现在我们转向圣经中的第二组数据，这就是我想让我们思考的三段圣经经文，它们似乎表明死后存在一种净化的状态，即使在死后，得救的灵魂也要经历一种净化的存在状态。
- start: 222.945
  end: 226.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Hence, we call that final purification purgatory.
  zh: 因此，我们称这最后的净化为炼狱。
- start: 226.048
  end: 238.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: These are the biblical passages that the Church, in her tradition, in the pope's writings, and in the early Church Fathers, have always referred to as a biblical basis for the doctrine of purgatory.
  zh: 这些圣经经文一直被教会在其圣传中、在教宗的著作中、在早期教父们的著作中引用，作为炼狱教义的圣经基础。
- start: 238.219
  end: 259.654
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in its section on purgatory (paragraphs 1030 to 1032), cites these biblical passages, in particular 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 and Matthew 12:32. So these passages have been used by the Church in her magisterial teaching.
  zh: 甚至《公教会教理》在其关于炼狱的部分（第1030至1032段）也引用了这些圣经经文，特别是林前3:11-15和太12:32。因此这些经文已被教会在其训导中使用。
- start: 259.654
  end: 267.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So let's take a look at these passages and see what we can extract from them and if they reveal purgatory to us.
  zh: 让我们来看看这些经文，看看我们能从中得出什么，以及它们是否向我们揭示了炼狱。
- start: 267.459
  end: 281.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Our first and most important text is 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. Here’s what St. Paul writes: For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.'
  zh: 我们的第一个也是最重要的经文是林前3:11-15。保罗是这样写的：因为那已经立好的根基就是耶稣基督，此外没有人能立别的根基。
- start: 281.244
  end: 299.794
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man's work will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
  zh: 若有人用金、银、宝石、草木、禾秸在这根基上建造，各人的工程必然显露，因为那日子要将它表明出来，有火发现，这火要试验各人的工程怎样。
- start: 299.794
  end: 307.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Verse 14: If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.'
  zh: 人在那根基上所建造的工程若存得住，他就要得赏赐。
- start: 307.418
  end: 318.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
  zh: 人的工程若被烧了，他就要受亏损，自己却要得救，虽然得救乃像从火里经过的一样。
- start: 318.722
  end: 331.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now I have five steps of exegesis here, five steps we can walk through to sort of explain how this passage is revealing purgatory as understood and taught by the Catholic Church.
  zh: 现在我有五个解经步骤，我们可以通过这五个步骤来解释这段经文如何揭示了公教会所理解和教导的炼狱。
- start: 331.429
  end: 337.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Step one: Paul is referring to a purgation of sins, first and foremost.'
  zh: 第一步：保罗首先指的是对罪的净化。
- start: 337.754
  end: 338.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How do we know?
  zh: 我们如何知道？
- start: 338.534
  end: 348.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, I think our clue is the image of the wood, hay, and straw being burned up in the fire.
  zh: 我认为我们的线索是草木、禾秸在火中被烧毁的图像。
- start: 349.517
  end: 353.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There is a purging of bad works.
  zh: 这是对坏行为的净化。
- start: 353.941
  end: 355.262
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How do we know this refers to bad works?
  zh: 我们如何知道这指的是坏行为？
- start: 355.262
  end: 366.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, it’s obvious from the text that the gold, precious stones, and silver represent the good works compared to the wood, hay, and straw, which represent the bad works.
  zh: 从经文中很明显可以看出，金、宝石和银代表好行为，而草木、禾秸则代表坏行为。
- start: 366.971
  end: 377.52
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Recall how St. Paul says the fire will test the works to see of what sort or what kind they will be.
  zh: 记住保罗是如何说火要试验这些工程，看它们是什么样的。
- start: 377.96
  end: 381.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, what’s going to survive the purifying fire?
  zh: 那么，什么能在净化的火中存留？
- start: 381.321
  end: 386.183
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The gold, silver, and precious stones—those are good kinds of work.
  zh: 金、银和宝石——这些是好的工程。
- start: 386.263
  end: 389.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What will not survive the purifying fire?
  zh: 什么在净化的火中不能存留？
- start: 389.824
  end: 391.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What will be burned up?
  zh: 什么会被烧毁？
- start: 391.505
  end: 393.845
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The wood, the hay, and the straw.
  zh: 草木、禾秸。
- start: 394.106
  end: 404.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Throughout our tradition, the wood, the hay, and the straw are seen as images representing the lesser faults, those venial sins in the soul.
  zh: 在我们的传统中，草木、禾秸一直被视为代表较小过错的象征，就是灵魂中的小罪。
- start: 404.496
  end: 411.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So there is indeed a purgation of sins that St. Paul is referring to here.
  zh: 所以保罗在这里确实指的是对罪的净化。
- start: 411.516
  end: 418.461
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Second step: The purgation of sins, I would argue, occurs after death.'
  zh: 第二步：我认为，这种罪的净化是在死后发生的。
- start: 419.082
  end: 435.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Paul is not referring to a purgation of sins, a fire of this life, a trial or a testing of this life to see of what sort or what type of work it is, but a fire or a purification in the afterlife, after death.
  zh: 保罗所指的不是今生的罪的净化，不是今生的火，不是今生的试炼或考验来看工程是什么样的，而是死后、来世的火或净化。
- start: 435.395
  end: 443.6
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Namely, it’s the day of judgment, which according to Hebrews 9:27, comes after death.
  zh: 也就是说，这是审判的日子，根据来9:27，这是在死后发生的。
- start: 443.6
  end: 449.924
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The author of Hebrews writes, It is appointed for every man to die once, then the judgment.
  zh: 希伯来书的作者写道，按着定命，人人都有一死，死后且有审判。
- start: 450.045
  end: 454.727
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What are our clues that St. Paul is referring to the day of judgment here?
  zh: 有什么线索表明保罗在这里指的是审判的日子？
- start: 454.848
  end: 458.59
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That is, after death, after the soul leaves this life.
  zh: 也就是说，在死后，在灵魂离开今生之后。
- start: 459.028
  end: 463.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, the first clue is St. Paul’s usage of the day.
  zh: 第一个线索是保罗对「那日子」一词的使用。
- start: 463.511
  end: 474.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Recall how St. Paul mentioned that the day will disclose what sort of works these are.
  zh: 记住保罗是如何提到那日子要显明这些工程是什么样的。
- start: 474.218
  end: 485.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, that Greek word for the day is hemera, and St. Paul uses that particular Greek word as opposed to eight other Greek words for day.
  zh: 现在，「那日子」的希腊文是hemera，保罗使用这个特定的希腊词，而不是其他八个表示「日子」的希腊词。
- start: 485.565
  end: 492.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The significance of hemera, the day, is used elsewhere in the Bible in reference to the day of judgment.
  zh: 这个hemera，「那日子」的重要性，在圣经其他地方是用来指审判的日子。
- start: 492.651
  end: 503.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: For example, in Matthew 12:36, Jesus, in talking about the day of judgment, states that we will be judged according to every word that we say.
  zh: 例如，在太12:36中，耶稣在谈到审判的日子时说，我们说的每句话都要受审判。
- start: 503.5
  end: 504.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 504.461
  end: 507.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The day of judgment—there is hemera.
  zh: 审判的日子——这就是hemera。
- start: 507.863
  end: 519.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So when St. Paul talks about the day that will disclose it, it can be argued that he’s referring to the day of judgment, standing before the judgment seat of Christ, which, remember, comes after death.
  zh: 所以当保罗谈到要显明的那日子时，可以说他指的是审判的日子，站在基督审判台前，记住，这是在死后发生的。
- start: 519.858
  end: 530.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The second clue that St. Paul is talking about the day of judgment is the motif of receiving recompense for works or deeds.
  zh: 保罗在谈论审判日的第二个线索是关于因行为或作为得到报应的主题。
- start: 530.564
  end: 539.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Notice how he says that for those good works, you’re going to receive a reward, and for those bad works—wood, hay, straw—burned up in the fire, you’re going to suffer loss.
  zh: 注意他是如何说的，对于那些好的工程，你会得到赏赐，而对于那些坏的工程——草木、禾秸——在火中被烧毁，你会受亏损。
- start: 539.569
  end: 544.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s this motif of receiving recompense for what is done, both good and bad.
  zh: 这里有一个主题，就是对所行的善恶都要得到报应。
- start: 545.734
  end: 558.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That same motif or theme is found elsewhere in St. Paul’s writings, specifically in 2 Corinthians 5:10, in reference to standing before the judgment seat of Christ.
  zh: 这同样的主题在保罗的其他著作中也能找到，特别是在林后5:10中，提到要站在基督的审判台前。
- start: 558.864
  end: 568.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: When St. Paul says we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ, we will receive a reward according to what we have done in the body, whether good or evil.
  zh: 当保罗说我们要站在基督的审判台前时，我们要按着本身所行的，或善或恶受报。
- start: 569.464
  end: 575.508
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, St. Paul, elsewhere, when he's talking about receiving recompense for deeds, is referring to the judgment seat of Christ.
  zh: 所以，保罗在其他地方谈到因行为得报应时，指的是基督的审判台。
- start: 575.508
  end: 581.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It's the day of judgment; it wouldn't necessarily be the final judgment, as it could also be the particular judgment.
  zh: 这是审判的日子；不一定是最后的审判，也可能是个别审判。
- start: 582.872
  end: 592.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Paul is writing about this same motif here in 1 Corinthians 3, receiving recompense for deeds, whether good or bad.
  zh: 保罗在林前3章中写的是同样的主题，就是因所行的善恶得报应。
- start: 592.358
  end: 600.742
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So apparently, the day that he’s talking about is the day of judgment, which, according to Hebrews 9:27, once again comes when?
  zh: 所以显然，他所说的那日子就是审判的日子，根据来9:27，这是在什么时候？
- start: 601.042
  end: 602.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: After death.
  zh: 在死后。
- start: 602.463
  end: 616.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'So notice so far: St. Paul is discussing a purgation of sins, a purification of the soul that is in the afterlife, that’s after death.'
  zh: 所以到目前为止请注意：保罗在讨论一种罪的净化，一种在来世、在死后发生的灵魂净化。
- start: 617.747
  end: 622.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Now this leads us to step three: It can''t be Heaven.'
  zh: 现在这带我们到第三步：这不可能是天堂。
- start: 622.199
  end: 623.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Sorry about the PowerPoint; it messed up there.
  zh: 抱歉PowerPoint出了问题。
- start: 623.94
  end: 625.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It can't be Heaven.
  zh: 这不可能是天堂。
- start: 625.141
  end: 625.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 626.602
  end: 631.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because there are sins present on the soul, right?
  zh: 因为灵魂上还有罪，对吧？
- start: 631.786
  end: 637.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The soul that’s going through the final purification has the guilt of venial sin, represented by the wood, hay, and straw.
  zh: 正在经历最后净化的灵魂带有小罪的罪责，这由草木、禾秸所代表。
- start: 637.931
  end: 639.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Can sin exist in Heaven?
  zh: 罪能存在于天堂吗？
- start: 640.419
  end: 645.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No. So, if the soul has sin on it, it can't be Heaven.
  zh: 不能。所以，如果灵魂上有罪，这就不可能是天堂。
- start: 645.221
  end: 650.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Furthermore, it can't be Heaven because the soul is suffering loss.
  zh: 而且，这不可能是天堂，因为灵魂正在受亏损。
- start: 651.063
  end: 652.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Is there any suffering in Heaven?
  zh: 天堂里有任何痛苦吗？
- start: 652.624
  end: 653.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Absolutely not.
  zh: 绝对没有。
- start: 653.844
  end: 655.404
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thank God!
  zh: 感谢神！
- start: 656.145
  end: 659.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it can't be Heaven for those reasons.
  zh: 所以基于这些原因，这不可能是天堂。
- start: 659.706
  end: 664.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'This leads us to step four of our exegesis: It can''t be hell either.'
  zh: 这带我们到解经的第四步：这也不可能是地狱。
- start: 665.544
  end: 668.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why can't it be hell?
  zh: 为什么不可能是地狱？
- start: 668.488
  end: 671.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because, if you remember, what does St. Paul say?
  zh: 因为，如果你记得，保罗是怎么说的？
- start: 671.773
  end: 677.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He shall be saved, though as through fire.
  zh: 他要得救，虽然得救乃像从火里经过的一样。
- start: 678.487
  end: 679.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He shall be saved.
  zh: 他要得救。
- start: 679.547
  end: 698.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Greek word there for saved is sozo, which many theologians affirm is a particular Greek word used in the New Testament in reference to salvation, like in reference to God—not merely an earthly salvation, such as being saved from my earthly enemies or being saved from some sort of political oppression.
  zh: 这里「得救」的希腊文是sozo，许多神学家确认这是新约中专门用来指向救恩的希腊词，就像指向神那样——不仅仅是指地上的拯救，比如从地上的敌人中得救或从某种政治压迫中得救。
- start: 698.792
  end: 703.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It refers to salvation in relation to one's standing before God.
  zh: 它指的是关乎一个人在神面前地位的救恩。
- start: 703.713
  end: 714.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, we have a purgation of sins, possibly at the day of judgment in the afterlife, that's neither Heaven nor hell.
  zh: 所以，我们看到一种罪的净化，可能发生在来世的审判日，这既不是天堂也不是地狱。
- start: 714.4
  end: 716.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why can't it be hell if they’re being saved?
  zh: 如果他们要得救，为什么这不可能是地狱？
- start: 716.782
  end: 718.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because you can't be saved from hell, right?
  zh: 因为你不可能从地狱中得救，对吧？
- start: 718.823
  end: 726.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Contrary to what some theologians and some Christian communities believe, hell, my dear friends, is everlasting.
  zh: 亲爱的朋友们，与一些神学家和一些基督教团体的信念相反，地狱是永恒的。
- start: 726.346
  end: 729.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The souls in hell cannot get out of hell.
  zh: 在地狱里的灵魂不能从地狱中出来。
- start: 729.748
  end: 735.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So here we have a purification after death of a saved soul, right?
  zh: 所以在这里我们看到一个得救灵魂在死后的净化，对吧？
- start: 735.951
  end: 738.833
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s going to Heaven, but it’s not Heaven and it’s not hell.
  zh: 它要去天堂，但它既不是天堂也不是地狱。
- start: 738.833
  end: 739.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is it?
  zh: 这是什么？
- start: 740.994
  end: 744.015
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We call it purgatory, right?
  zh: 我们称之为炼狱，对吧？
- start: 744.436
  end: 745.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Interesting, huh?
  zh: 很有趣，是吧？
- start: 745.697
  end: 747.437
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, there’s a funny little story.
  zh: 现在，有一个有趣的小故事。
- start: 747.437
  end: 761.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: One of my mentors, Tim Staples, a nationally known apologist and evangelist, and a good friend of mine, tells this story in his talks on purgatory about how he was debating a Protestant pastor one time on a radio show.
  zh: 我的一位导师，提姆·斯泰普尔斯，一位全国知名的护教者和传道人，也是我的好朋友，在他关于炼狱的讲座中讲述了这个故事，是关于他曾经在一个广播节目中与一位新教牧师辩论。
- start: 761.858
  end: 769.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They were talking about purgatory, and Mr. Staples led this Protestant pastor through these same steps of exegesis.
  zh: 他们在讨论炼狱，斯泰普尔斯先生带领这位新教牧师经历了这些相同的解经步骤。
- start: 769.024
  end: 771.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: By the way, he got it from St. Augustine.
  zh: 顺便说一下，他是从奥古斯丁那里学到的。
- start: 771.506
  end: 775.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Augustine does the same thing when he’s arguing for the biblical evidence of purgatory.
  zh: 奥古斯丁在论证炼狱的圣经证据时也是这样做的。
- start: 775.729
  end: 776.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay?
  zh: 明白吗？
- start: 776.229
  end: 780.952
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'The same steps of exegesis: final purification in the afterlife; can’t be Heaven, can’t be hell.'
  zh: 同样的解经步骤：来世的最后净化；不可能是天堂，不可能是地狱。
- start: 780.952
  end: 785.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, Mr. Staples led the Protestant pastor through this exegesis, and they went to a break.
  zh: 所以，斯泰普尔斯先生带领这位新教牧师完成了这个解经，然后他们休息了一下。
- start: 787.414
  end: 794.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Tim Staples tells the story about how the Protestant pastor leans over and says, You know, Tim, something to this extent: I see your reasoning.'
  zh: 提姆·斯泰普尔斯讲述了这位新教牧师是如何倾身过来说：你知道，提姆，大致是这样说的：我理解你的推理。
- start: 794.397
  end: 799.078
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s a final purification in the afterlife; it can’t be Heaven; it can’t be hell.
  zh: 这是来世的最后净化；不可能是天堂；不可能是地狱。
- start: 799.078
  end: 803.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But I’m just not ready to call it purgatory.
  zh: 但我还没有准备好称它为炼狱。
- start: 805.134
  end: 813.279
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: To which Mr. Staples replies something to the extent of, Brother, and Mr. Staples was a former Baptist and Pentecostal Assemblies of God.
  zh: 对此斯泰普尔斯先生回答说，大致是这样说的，弟兄，而斯泰普尔斯先生曾经是浸信会和神召会的信徒。
- start: 813.279
  end: 820.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He said, Brother, you can call a rose by any name you want, but a rose is still a rose.
  zh: 他说，弟兄，你可以用任何名字称呼玫瑰，但玫瑰依然是玫瑰。
- start: 821.003
  end: 832.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'You can call it whatever you want, but it’s still purgatory as defined and understood by the Catholic Church: a final purification of those souls going to Heaven, right?'
  zh: 你可以随意称呼它，但它仍然是公教会所定义和理解的炼狱：那些要去天堂的灵魂的最后净化，对吧？
- start: 833.058
  end: 850.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s neither Heaven nor hell, a state of existence in the afterlife neither Heaven nor hell, where the saved soul, the elect, experiences a final purification of life, the guilt of lesser faults, the defilement that’s on the soul, but yet the soul is still in friendship with God.
  zh: 这既不是天堂也不是地狱，是来世中一种既非天堂也非地狱的存在状态，在那里得救的灵魂，蒙拣选的人，经历生命的最后净化，小过的罪责，灵魂上的污秽，但灵魂仍然与神保持友谊。
- start: 850.796
  end: 867.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'St. Paul teaches us the reality of purgatory here in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. So, step five: I think we can conclude St. Paul is speaking about a state of existence in the afterlife that is neither Heaven nor hell, where the soul experiences a purification of defilement.'
  zh: 保罗在林前3:11-15中教导我们炼狱的实在性。所以，第五步：我认为我们可以得出结论，保罗在谈论来世中一种既非天堂也非地狱的存在状态，在那里灵魂经历污秽的净化。
- start: 867.564
  end: 872.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, that’s the essential passage.
  zh: 这就是这段关键的经文。
- start: 872.136
  end: 873.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Let’s move on to a couple more.
  zh: 让我们继续看几段。
- start: 873.757
  end: 884.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We come to Matthew chapter 5, verses 25 through 26, and many apologists and theologians will look to this passage as a biblical example for the reality of purgatory.
  zh: 我们来看太5:25-26，许多护教者和神学家都将这段经文视为炼狱实在性的圣经例证。
- start: 884.663
  end: 899.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Here’s what Jesus says: Make friends quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison.'
  zh: 耶稣是这样说的：你同告你的对头还在路上，就赶紧与他和息，恐怕他把你送给审判官，审判官交付衙役，你就下在监里。
- start: 899.552
  end: 907.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Surely, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.
  zh: 我实在告诉你，若有一文钱没有还清，你断不能从那里出来。
- start: 908.157
  end: 914.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, the question is, how does this passage reveal the Catholic understanding or the reality of purgatory?
  zh: 所以，问题是，这段经文如何揭示公教会对炼狱的理解或炼狱的实在性？
- start: 914.982
  end: 917.423
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, I have four steps of exegesis here.
  zh: 好，我这里有四个解经步骤。
- start: 917.423
  end: 930.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The first step is that Jesus emphasizes the principle of repayment, which would seem to correspond with the Catholic Church's teaching about the temporal punishment due for sin, right?
  zh: 第一步是耶稣强调偿还的原则，这似乎与公教会关于罪的暂时性惩罚的教导相对应，对吧？
- start: 930.168
  end: 941.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Making reparation, satisfying for, and making atonement for that temporal punishment, or making the payment that man can pay.
  zh: 为那暂时性的惩罚做补赎、满足和赎罪，或是做人所能做的偿还。
- start: 941.172
  end: 944.155
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Obviously, only God can pay for the eternal price, right?
  zh: 显然，只有神能付永恒的代价，对吧？
- start: 944.155
  end: 946.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The infinite gap.
  zh: 那无限的鸿沟。
- start: 946.497
  end: 951.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Only God can cross the infinite chasm and wipe away the eternal consequence of sin.
  zh: 只有神能跨越无限的鸿沟，抹去罪的永恒后果。
- start: 951.421
  end: 956.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But because man did something in sin, man must do something to repair for that sin.
  zh: 但因为人在罪中做了某事，人必须做些什么来弥补那罪。
- start: 956.946
  end: 960.409
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Jesus does what man can’t, but man does what he can.
  zh: 耶稣做人做不到的，但人要做他能做的。
- start: 960.409
  end: 964.352
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s where the temporal punishment comes in—paying back for sin.
  zh: 这就是暂时性惩罚的意义所在——为罪偿还。
- start: 964.352
  end: 973.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, Jesus seems to be emphasizing this principle of repayment for sin, which would coincide with the Catholic idea of temporal punishment.
  zh: 所以，耶稣似乎在强调这种为罪偿还的原则，这与公教会关于暂时性惩罚的观念相符。
- start: 975.062
  end: 978.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Step two, and the clue there obviously is the prison.
  zh: 第二步，这里明显的线索是监狱。
- start: 978.425
  end: 980.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You're in prison; it’s a holding, it’s a detaining place.
  zh: 你在监狱里，这是一个拘留的地方，一个关押的地方。
- start: 980.987
  end: 984.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You’re paying back by paying the last penny.
  zh: 你要还清最后一文钱来偿还。
- start: 984.591
  end: 994.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Now, step two: The punishment that Jesus speaks of here is not eternal but temporary in nature.'
  zh: 现在，第二步：耶稣在这里说的惩罚本质上不是永恒的而是暂时的。
- start: 994.201
  end: 995.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How so?
  zh: 怎么说？
- start: 995.221
  end: 996.081
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What are our clues?
  zh: 我们有什么线索？
- start: 996.081
  end: 1001.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Number one: As the English translation says, the penny—in Greek, it’s kondrantes.'
  zh: 第一：正如英文翻译所说，这一文钱——在希腊文中是kondrantes。
- start: 1001.103
  end: 1024.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Kondrantes, as you see there on your handout, is spelled K-O-D-R-A-N-T-E-S. Now, from what I understand, a kondrantes is literally worth less than 2% of a denarius, which was a day's wage for the agricultural laborer in ancient times—worth less than 2%. Of a day's wage.
  zh: Kondrantes，如你在讲义上看到的，拼写是K-O-D-R-A-N-T-E-S。据我所知，一个kondrantes的实际价值不到一个得拿利的2%，而一个得拿利是古代农业劳动者一天的工资——不到一天工资的2%。
- start: 1024.932
  end: 1032.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So this price to pay is something that is payable; it’s feasible, it’s doable.
  zh: 所以这个要付的代价是可以支付的，是可行的，是做得到的。
- start: 1032.576
  end: 1042.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s not like the other parables where Jesus speaks of detainment and prison and paying back, where the amounts are so extraordinary that you cannot even accrue them in your lifetime, right?
  zh: 这不像耶稣在其他比喻中谈到的拘留、监禁和偿还，那里的金额大得惊人，你一生都积累不到，对吧？
- start: 1043.621
  end: 1045.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That would indicate eternal punishment.
  zh: 那就表明是永恒的惩罚。
- start: 1045.282
  end: 1049.424
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But this price to pay is doable; it is feasible.
  zh: 但这个要付的代价是做得到的，是可行的。
- start: 1050.19
  end: 1065.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The second clue, as one apologist points out, Jimmy Akin, a senior apologist for Catholic Answers in San Diego, emphasizes the fact that the sin Jesus is talking about here seems to be primarily a sin against a human being.
  zh: 第二个线索，正如一位护教者指出的，圣地亚哥公教答疑处的资深护教者吉米·埃金强调，耶稣在这里谈到的罪似乎主要是针对人的罪。
- start: 1065.368
  end: 1078.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'If you sin against your brother, so he follows this line of reasoning: by sinning against a finite being, the repayment or the punishment for that sin will be finite.'
  zh: 如果你得罪你的弟兄，他就按这个推理：得罪一个有限的存在，那罪的偿还或惩罚也将是有限的。
- start: 1078.481
  end: 1085.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You’re supposed to sin against the infinite being, God, requiring infinite value, right?
  zh: 相比之下，得罪那无限的存在，神，就需要无限的价值，对吧？
- start: 1085.427
  end: 1087.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thus, infinite eternal punishment.
  zh: 因此就是无限永恒的惩罚。
- start: 1087.549
  end: 1094.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But this is finite sin against a finite being, indicating finite punishment.
  zh: 但这是对有限存在的有限的罪，表明是有限的惩罚。
- start: 1094.496
  end: 1100.502
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So if it’s a finite punishment, then that would indicate that it’s payable, right?
  zh: 所以如果是有限的惩罚，那就表明是可以偿还的，对吧？
- start: 1100.502
  end: 1112.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You can repay the price for the punishment, and thus for the sin you should say, and get out of the prison that Jesus is speaking of.
  zh: 你可以偿还惩罚的代价，因此也就是为罪偿还，可以说，并从耶稣所说的监狱中出来。
- start: 1112.264
  end: 1126.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So we have the principle of repayment for sin, we have detainment—that is, a holding place—and then an amount that is payable, indicating a temporary punishment, not eternal.
  zh: 所以我们有为罪偿还的原则，我们有拘留——就是一个关押的地方——然后是一个可以偿还的数额，表明这是暂时的惩罚，不是永恒的。
- start: 1126.711
  end: 1140.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Step three: I would argue that the punishment Jesus is speaking of here is, once again, as we did in 1 Corinthians 3, after death—a punishment or a prison not in this life, but in the afterlife.'
  zh: 第三步：我认为耶稣在这里说的惩罚是，再一次，就像我们在林前3章所看到的，是在死后——不是今生的惩罚或监狱，而是来世的。
- start: 1140.576
  end: 1141.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How so?
  zh: 怎么说？
- start: 1141.036
  end: 1144.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, our first clue is the Greek word that’s used for prison.
  zh: 好，我们的第一个线索是用来表示监狱的希腊词。
- start: 1144.878
  end: 1175.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Interestingly enough, the Greek word used for prison here is phouleke, which is the same Greek word that St. Peter uses in reference to Jesus going down to preach to the spirits in prison when he descends into the abode of the dead to preach to those righteous souls of the Old Testament in 1 Peter 3:18-19, as well as in 1 Peter 4:19 when St. Peter talks about Jesus going to preach to the spirits in prison.
  zh: 有趣的是，这里用来表示监狱的希腊词是phouleke，这与彼得在彼前3:18-19中提到耶稣下去向在监狱中的灵传道，当他降到死人的居所向那些旧约的义人传道时所用的希腊词相同，也与彼前4:19中彼得谈到耶稣去向在监狱中的灵传道时所用的词相同。
- start: 1175.558
  end: 1178.06
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Greek word there is phouleke.
  zh: 那里的希腊词是phouleke。
- start: 1178.601
  end: 1188.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So the fact that phouleke is used here in Jesus' teaching seems to indicate this is some sort of holding place, right, for souls in the afterlife.
  zh: 所以耶稣的教导中使用phouleke这个词似乎表明这是来世中某种灵魂的关押之处，对吧？
- start: 1188.815
  end: 1201.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The second clue that Jesus is referring to the afterlife is the context—the context in which Jesus gives us this teaching about a prison and repaying for sin, right?
  zh: 耶稣指的是来世的第二个线索是上下文——耶稣给我们关于监狱和为罪偿还的教导的上下文，对吧？
- start: 1201.554
  end: 1209.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This temporal punishment is in the context of Jesus' teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, which is all about the afterlife.
  zh: 这种暂时性的惩罚是在耶稣登山宝训的教导中提到的，而登山宝训都是关于来世的。
- start: 1209.296
  end: 1214.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Think about it: in Matthew 5, verses 3-12, what does Jesus teach us about?'
  zh: 想想看：在太5:3-12中，耶稣教导我们什么？
- start: 1214.438
  end: 1216.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Beatitudes.
  zh: 八福。
- start: 1216.899
  end: 1219.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is the ultimate goal of the Beatitudes?
  zh: 八福的最终目标是什么？
- start: 1219.66
  end: 1221.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Kingdom of Heaven.
  zh: 天国。
- start: 1221.36
  end: 1224.781
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So He’s talking about things of the nature of salvation, right?
  zh: 所以他在谈论关乎救恩本质的事，对吧？
- start: 1226.021
  end: 1235.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In verse 20, Jesus talks about your righteousness needing to exceed that of the Pharisees in order to go to Heaven, so He’s discussing salvation.
  zh: 在第20节，耶稣说你们的义必须胜过法利赛人的义才能进天国，所以他在讨论救恩。
- start: 1235.184
  end: 1242.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In verse 22, He speaks of going to hell for being angry at your brother.
  zh: 在第22节，他说为向弟兄动怒就要下地狱。
- start: 1243.386
  end: 1246.567
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In verses 27-28, what is Jesus talking about?
  zh: 在27-28节，耶稣在说什么？
- start: 1246.567
  end: 1251.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If any man lusts after a woman, he has already committed adultery with her in his heart, right?
  zh: 若有人看见妇女就动淫念，这人心里已经与她犯奸淫了，对吧？
- start: 1251.028
  end: 1253.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So He’s talking about things of eternal importance.
  zh: 所以他在谈论具有永恒重要性的事。
- start: 1253.829
  end: 1262.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Then in chapter 6, verses 1 and 19, Jesus talks about the treasures of Heaven that the Father has in store for us.
  zh: 然后在第6章第1节和第19节，耶稣谈到天父为我们存留的天上的财宝。
- start: 1263.031
  end: 1277.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So all of the context of this teaching from Jesus on repaying and paying for our punishment in the prison is within the context of salvation—Heaven, hell, things of eternal importance, things of the afterlife.
  zh: 所以耶稣关于在监狱中偿还和为我们的惩罚付代价的这些教导的整个上下文都是在救恩的背景下——天堂、地狱、具有永恒重要性的事、来世的事。
- start: 1277.275
  end: 1289.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And right smack dab in the middle is this teaching about a prison—phouleke—and repaying, paying the penny for our sin.
  zh: 而正好在中间是这个关于监狱——phouleke——和偿还、为我们的罪付出一文钱的教导。
- start: 1289.721
  end: 1298.726
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it would seem to indicate that Jesus is talking about a punishment that is not of this life but in the afterlife, right?
  zh: 所以这似乎表明耶稣谈论的不是今生的惩罚，而是来世的惩罚，对吧？
- start: 1299.046
  end: 1311.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So we look at this, we gather the information, and we say, Hmm, Jesus is talking about punishment, a form of temporal punishment, the principle of repayment, paying for one’s sin.
  zh: 所以我们看这段，我们收集信息，然后说，嗯，耶稣在谈论惩罚，一种暂时性的惩罚，偿还的原则，为人的罪付出代价。
- start: 1311.48
  end: 1319.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And that payment for sin is not eternal, but it’s temporary—it's a temporary payment for sin that seems to be in the afterlife.
  zh: 而且这种为罪付出的代价不是永恒的，而是暂时的——这是一种似乎在来世的暂时性的罪的偿还。
- start: 1319.529
  end: 1321.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It can’t be Heaven, right?
  zh: 这不可能是天堂，对吧？
- start: 1322.366
  end: 1329.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because there’s no sin in Heaven, and Heaven is not a prison; it’s not a holding place waiting to go somewhere else.
  zh: 因为天堂里没有罪，而且天堂不是监狱，不是等待去别处的关押之地。
- start: 1329.776
  end: 1332.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And it can’t be hell because, guess what?
  zh: 而且也不可能是地狱，你猜为什么？
- start: 1332.459
  end: 1334.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You ain't getting out of hell.
  zh: 你不可能从地狱里出来。
- start: 1334.522
  end: 1337.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You aren't going to be able to pay the price to get out of hell.
  zh: 你不可能付出代价从地狱里出来。
- start: 1337.566
  end: 1339.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So what is Jesus referring to?
  zh: 那么耶稣指的是什么？
- start: 1339.487
  end: 1366.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Many theologians and many apologists will suggest that Jesus is referring to the existence of purgatory here—a state of existence in the afterlife where a soul is finally purified, making reparation for sins that have already been forgiven but nevertheless, on their way to Heaven, getting out of the holding place eventually.
  zh: 许多神学家和护教者会说耶稣在这里指的是炼狱的存在——一种来世的存在状态，在那里灵魂得到最后的净化，为已经被赦免的罪做出补赎，但最终在去往天堂的路上，会从这个关押之处出来。
- start: 1366.242
  end: 1386.373
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Finally, we come to Matthew 12, verse 32. We are all familiar with this particular text where Jesus says, And whoever says a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, neither in this age nor in the age to come.
  zh: 最后，我们来看太12:32。我们都熟悉这段特别的经文，耶稣说：凡说话干犯人子的，还可得赦免；惟独说话干犯圣灵的，今世来世总不得赦免。
- start: 1387.199
  end: 1393.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, any man who sins against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this age or in the age to come.
  zh: 所以，任何人犯亵渎圣灵的罪，无论今世来世都不得赦免。
- start: 1393.981
  end: 1402.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Pope St. Gregory the Great, in the late 6th century, actually referred to this biblical passage as support for the existence of purgatory.
  zh: 实际上，六世纪末的大贵格利教宗引用这段圣经作为炼狱存在的支持。
- start: 1403.044
  end: 1410.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He, along with many other theologians throughout the centuries of Christianity, has argued this in a kind of four-step process.
  zh: 他和许多世纪以来的其他神学家一样，通过一个四步过程来论证这一点。
- start: 1410.148
  end: 1426.661
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Number one: The age that Jesus was referring to, “the age to come,” can be referred to or considered as the afterlife because the Greek word for age here is aeon, which is used elsewhere in Scripture in reference to after death, the afterlife, the age to come, right?'
  zh: 第一：耶稣所说的「来世」可以被理解为来世，因为这里「世」的希腊词是aeon，在圣经其他地方用来指死后、来世、将来的世代，对吧？
- start: 1426.702
  end: 1428.043
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So He's referring to the afterlife.
  zh: 所以他指的是来世。
- start: 1428.043
  end: 1430.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Step two: It can''t be Heaven.'
  zh: 第二步：这不可能是天堂。
- start: 1430.865
  end: 1431.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 1431.826
  end: 1435.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because notice the implication of Jesus' statement.
  zh: 因为注意耶稣这句话的含义。
- start: 1436.009
  end: 1441.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the age to come.
  zh: 这暗示有些罪在来世可以得到赦免。
- start: 1442.013
  end: 1448.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Remember, Jesus said the sin against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven in this age nor in the age to come.
  zh: 记住，耶稣说亵渎圣灵的罪今世来世都不得赦免。
- start: 1448.277
  end: 1449.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, wait a minute, Jesus.
  zh: 等一下，耶稣。
- start: 1449.458
  end: 1451.259
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Are there some sins that can be forgiven?
  zh: 是否有些罪是可以得到赦免的？
- start: 1454.622
  end: 1461.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Jesus' statement hints at the possibility of some sins—not the sin against the Holy Spirit, but some sins can be forgiven.
  zh: 耶稣的话暗示有些罪——不是亵渎圣灵的罪，而是其他一些罪——是可以得到赦免的。
- start: 1461.743
  end: 1463.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, what is the sin against the Holy Spirit?
  zh: 那么，什么是亵渎圣灵的罪？
- start: 1463.264
  end: 1464.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s another question for another time.
  zh: 这是另一个时候要讨论的问题。
- start: 1464.844
  end: 1470.705
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Let’s just move forward: There are some sins that can be forgiven in the afterlife.'
  zh: 让我们继续：有些罪在来世是可以得到赦免的。
- start: 1470.705
  end: 1477.766
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it can't be Heaven because no soul with sins in the afterlife is going to be existing in Heaven.
  zh: 所以这不可能是天堂，因为在来世没有带着罪的灵魂能存在于天堂。
- start: 1477.766
  end: 1480.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Step three: It can''t be hell, right?'
  zh: 第三步：这不可能是地狱，对吧？
- start: 1480.867
  end: 1483.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Because Jesus implies that the sin is going to be what?
  zh: 因为耶稣暗示这罪会怎样？
- start: 1483.88
  end: 1484.86
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Forgiven.
  zh: 被赦免。
- start: 1484.94
  end: 1486.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it can’t be hell.
  zh: 所以这不可能是地狱。
- start: 1486.401
  end: 1488.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Therefore, step four: What is it?'
  zh: 因此，第四步：这是什么？
- start: 1488.542
  end: 1490.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I think it’s purgatory, right?
  zh: 我认为这是炼狱，对吧？
- start: 1490.643
  end: 1494.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: As Pope St. Gregory the Great affirmed, as well as many theologians.
  zh: 正如大贵格利教宗和许多神学家所确认的。
- start: 1494.904
  end: 1501.867
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, in light of these biblical passages, we can see that the Bible supports this; the Bible teaches it.
  zh: 所以，根据这些圣经章节，我们可以看到圣经支持这一点，圣经教导这一点。
- start: 1501.867
  end: 1517.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Catholic Church has always taught this reality in the afterlife, where a saved soul—the elect—are finally purified of any guilt of venial sin that remains or any temporal punishment due for sin that is remaining.
  zh: 公教会一直教导这个来世的实在，在那里得救的灵魂——蒙拣选的人——最终被洁净，除去所有残留的小罪的罪责或任何剩余的暂时性罪罚。
- start: 1517.83
  end: 1520.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, Matthew 5:25-26, and Matthew 12:32 are three essential biblical texts.
  zh: 所以林前3:11-15、太5:25-26和太12:32是三段重要的圣经经文。
- start: 1520.271
  end: 1539.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, our third set of data for the biblical evidence for purgatory is the Jewish and Christian practice of praying for the dead, right?
  zh: 现在，我们关于炼狱的圣经证据的第三组数据是犹太人和基督徒为死者祈祷的做法，对吧？
- start: 1539.836
  end: 1545.04
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'And this relates to a separate question that’s often asked: Where in the Bible does it say to pray for the dead?'
  zh: 这与一个经常被问到的独立问题有关：圣经在哪里说要为死者祈祷？
- start: 1545.04
  end: 1545.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 1545.68
  end: 1551.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So that question is intrinsically related and associated with the question of purgatory.
  zh: 所以这个问题本质上与炼狱的问题有关和相连。
- start: 1551.044
  end: 1555.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'But think about it: if you’re praying for the dead, right?'
  zh: 但想想看：如果你在为死者祈祷，对吧？
- start: 1555.442
  end: 1561.104
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If you’re praying that your dead loved ones who have deceased will be purified, what does that imply?
  zh: 如果你在祈祷你已故的亲人得到净化，这暗示什么？
- start: 1561.104
  end: 1568.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That they’re neither in Heaven nor in hell, because your prayers for the souls in Heaven are not going to be effectual.
  zh: 这暗示他们既不在天堂也不在地狱，因为你为在天堂的灵魂祈祷是不会有效的。
- start: 1568.407
  end: 1573.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s no point in praying for them; it’s actually contrary to reason to pray for the souls in Heaven because they don't need your prayers.
  zh: 为他们祈祷没有意义；为天堂里的灵魂祈祷实际上是违背理性的，因为他们不需要你的祈祷。
- start: 1573.889
  end: 1576.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You can't pray for the souls in hell because they aren’t getting out.
  zh: 你不能为地狱里的灵魂祈祷，因为他们不可能出来。
- start: 1577.37
  end: 1594.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And so, if we can prove or show that both Jews and Christians pray for the dead, then that would imply their understanding of what we call purgatory—a state of existence in the afterlife where a saved soul is purified.
  zh: 因此，如果我们能证明或表明犹太人和基督徒都为死者祈祷，那就意味着他们理解我们所说的炼狱——一个得救灵魂在来世被净化的存在状态。
- start: 1594.394
  end: 1596.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Let’s start with the Jewish practice.
  zh: 让我们从犹太人的做法开始。
- start: 1596.474
  end: 1603.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This comes from 2 Maccabees chapter 12, verses 40 and 44 through 45 in particular.
  zh: 这来自玛加伯下12章，特别是第40节和第44至45节。
- start: 1603.018
  end: 1628.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Obviously, there’s a whole context there, but I’m just going to highlight verses 40 and 44 through 45. And this recounts how Judas Maccabeus, after the major battle driving out Antiochus Epiphanes IV, who was corrupting Jerusalem by putting up pagan idols within the Jerusalem Temple, and Judas Maccabeus and a group of Jewish brethren drive him out, right?
  zh: 显然，这里有完整的上下文，但我只想强调第40节和第44至45节。这里讲述了犹大·马加伯在一场重大战役之后如何驱逐安提阿古四世，后者通过在耶路撒冷圣殿中设立异教偶像来败坏耶路撒冷，而犹大·马加伯和一群犹太弟兄把他赶出去，对吧？
- start: 1628.84
  end: 1655.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'They reclaim the Temple, and then you have the re-consecration of the Temple, etc. Within that context, here’s what we read: Verse 40: Then under the tunic of every one of the dead, they found sacred tokens of the idols of Jamnia, which would be something akin to modern-day superstitions, like a baseball player carrying a rabbit''s foot in his back pocket or wearing something for superstitious reasons.'
  zh: 他们收复了圣殿，然后重新奉献圣殿等等。在这个背景下，我们读到：第40节：在每个死者的内衣下面，他们发现了雅木尼亚偶像的圣物，这类似于现代的迷信，就像棒球运动员出于迷信在后口袋里带着兔子脚或穿戴某些东西。
- start: 1656.599
  end: 1659.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Idols of Jamnia—superstitious stuff, right?
  zh: 雅木尼亚的偶像——迷信的东西，对吧？
- start: 1661.383
  end: 1670.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Verse 44: For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead.'
  zh: 第44节：若没有指望死人复活，为死人祈祷便是多余和愚昧的。
- start: 1670.432
  end: 1680.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Verse 45: But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.'
  zh: 第45节：他既然想到那些虔诚去世的人所存留的美好赏报，这就是圣洁和虔诚的想法。
- start: 1680.721
  end: 1686.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Therefore, he made atonement for the dead that they might be delivered from their sin.
  zh: 因此，他为死者赎罪，使他们可以从罪中得释放。
- start: 1687.746
  end: 1701.395
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So here in this Jewish text, we have Jewish people, Judas Maccabeus in particular, praying for his deceased comrades, his deceased soldiers, in order that they may be what?
  zh: 所以在这段犹太经文中，我们看到犹太人，特别是犹大·马加伯，为他已故的同伴，他已故的士兵祈祷，为了什么？
- start: 1701.475
  end: 1703.376
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Delivered from sin.
  zh: 从罪中得释放。
- start: 1703.516
  end: 1713.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He understands that the sin they committed was a lesser fault—a sin, nevertheless, but not serious enough to send them to hell, because he wouldn’t be praying for them if that were the case.
  zh: 他明白他们所犯的罪是较小的过错——虽然是罪，但还不足以让他们下地狱，因为如果是那样的话，他就不会为他们祈祷了。
- start: 1713.98
  end: 1722.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So he understands that these souls could be existing in the afterlife and still not be delivered from their sins, so he prays for them.
  zh: 所以他明白这些灵魂可能存在于来世却仍未从罪中得释放，所以他为他们祈祷。
- start: 1722.783
  end: 1729.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, our Protestant brothers and sisters may say, Oh, but that's Carlo—that's 2 Maccabees.
  zh: 现在，我们的新教弟兄姐妹可能会说，哦，但那是卡洛——那是玛加伯下。
- start: 1729.148
  end: 1731.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: My friend, I ain’t got that one in my Bible!
  zh: 我的朋友，我的圣经里没有这卷书！
- start: 1732.05
  end: 1734.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You have it in yours, but it ain’t in mine, which is true.
  zh: 你们的圣经里有，但我的里面没有，这是事实。
- start: 1735.333
  end: 1746.762
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 2 Maccabees is not in our Protestant brothers’ and sisters’ Bibles, along with six other books that Martin Luther rejected at the advent of the Protestant Reformation that had been there for 1,500 years.
  zh: 玛加伯下不在我们新教弟兄姐妹的圣经里，连同其他六卷书一起，是路德在宗教改革开始时拒绝的，尽管这些书已经存在了1500年。
- start: 1747.543
  end: 1756.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Nevertheless, it is not in the Bible of our Protestant friends, so they will reject this passage and say, Yep, not worthy of consideration.
  zh: 无论如何，它不在我们新教朋友的圣经里，所以他们会拒绝这段经文并说，是的，不值得考虑。
- start: 1756.787
  end: 1778.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, even though they may not accept it as inspired—which, of course, is unfortunate because it is inspired word of God—they must still acknowledge it as historical testimony of the practice and belief of the Jews right around 1 BC in the first century of Judaism.
  zh: 然而，即使他们可能不接受它是默示的——当然这很遗憾，因为它是神默示的话——他们仍然必须承认它是公元前1世纪左右犹太教第一世纪时期犹太人实践和信仰的历史见证。
- start: 1779.221
  end: 1784.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it does serve as a historical witness of what Jews believed.
  zh: 所以它确实作为犹太人信仰的历史见证。
- start: 1784.683
  end: 1790.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They believed in a state of existence in the afterlife where souls could be purified from the guilt of sin.
  zh: 他们相信在来世有一种存在状态，灵魂可以在那里从罪责中得到净化。
- start: 1791.065
  end: 1793.006
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So what about the Christian Church?
  zh: 那么基督教会呢？
- start: 1793.186
  end: 1795.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Is there any evidence in the New Testament?
  zh: 新约中有任何证据吗？
- start: 1795.487
  end: 1808.51
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, it might not be as explicit as 2 Maccabees 12, but I do think we find it in 1 Timothy 1:16-18. Here’s what St. Paul writes.
  zh: 好吧，它可能不像玛加伯下12章那样明确，但我认为我们在提前1:16-18中找到了它。这是保罗所写的。
- start: 1808.51
  end: 1811.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Notice that St. Paul says—I have three steps of exegesis here.
  zh: 注意保罗说——我这里有三个解经步骤。
- start: 1811.291
  end: 1841.641
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Number one: The biblical context implies that Onesiphorus, or Onesiphorus, however you want to pronounce him, is a dead guy.'
  zh: 第一：圣经上下文暗示阿尼色弗，或者不管你怎么发音，是一个已故的人。
- start: 1841.641
  end: 1849.092
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Folks, Onesiphorus—the context implies that Onesiphorus is dead at the time Paul was penning the letter.
  zh: 各位，阿尼色弗——上下文暗示当保罗写这封信时阿尼色弗已经去世了。
- start: 1849.512
  end: 1850.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is our clue?
  zh: 我们的线索是什么？
- start: 1851.013
  end: 1855.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, notice he says the household of Onesiphorus, right?
  zh: 注意，他说阿尼色弗的家，对吧？
- start: 1855.794
  end: 1867.058
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, this is 2 Timothy 1. If you go to 2 Timothy 4:19, which is the context, it further affirms what I’m trying to suggest.
  zh: 现在，这是提后1章。如果你看提后4:19，这个上下文进一步证实了我想说的。
- start: 1867.058
  end: 1877.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Here’s what he writes in 2 Timothy 4:19: Salute Prisca, Aquila, and the household of Onesiphorus.'
  zh: 这是他在提后4:19写的：问百基拉、亚居拉和阿尼色弗一家的安。
- start: 1878.281
  end: 1889.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Notice he salutes Prisca and Aquila as individual persons.
  zh: 注意他向百基拉和亚居拉是作为个人问安。
- start: 1889.364
  end: 1890.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s right.
  zh: 没错。
- start: 1890.604
  end: 1903.235
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'But notice he refers to the household of Onesiphorus, and then right after that, in verse 20, St. Paul goes to listing individuals again: Erastus remained at Corinth; Trophimus I left sick at Miletus.'
  zh: 但注意他提到阿尼色弗一家，然后紧接着在第20节，保罗又开始列举个人：以拉都在哥林多住下了，特罗非摩病了，我就留他在米利都。
- start: 1903.235
  end: 1908.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So you have an individual, an individual, the household of Onesiphorus, an individual, and another individual.
  zh: 所以你看到一个人，另一个人，阿尼色弗一家，一个人，再一个人。
- start: 1908.361
  end: 1911.264
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Isn’t that interesting in light of the context?
  zh: 从上下文来看，这不是很有意思吗？
- start: 1911.544
  end: 1915.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This implies that Onesiphorus is dead, folks.
  zh: 各位，这暗示阿尼色弗已经去世了。
- start: 1915.727
  end: 1919.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s why he’s referring to the household of Onesiphorus.
  zh: 这就是为什么他提到阿尼色弗一家。
- start: 1919.87
  end: 1928.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'So our first step: the biblical context suggests that Onesiphorus was dead at the time Paul is penning the letter.'
  zh: 所以我们的第一步：圣经上下文表明当保罗写这封信时阿尼色弗已经去世了。
- start: 1928.316
  end: 1930.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Step two: What does he pray?'
  zh: 第二步：他祈祷什么？
- start: 1930.358
  end: 1936.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He prays that Onesiphorus would find mercy from the Lord on that day.
  zh: 他祈祷阿尼色弗在那日可以从主那里得怜悯。
- start: 1936.542
  end: 1943.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, as we already looked at earlier in other passages of St. Paul, what does the day refer to?
  zh: 现在，正如我们之前在保罗的其他经文中看到的，那日指的是什么？
- start: 1943.549
  end: 1950.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The day of judgment, folks, which comes, once again, according to Hebrews 9:27, after death.
  zh: 各位，是审判之日，根据来9:27，这是在死后到来。
- start: 1953.427
  end: 1963.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'So we put these details together: St. Paul is praying that Onesiphorus, who’s a dead guy, would find mercy from the Lord on the day of judgment.'
  zh: 所以我们把这些细节放在一起：保罗在为已故的阿尼色弗祈祷，愿他在审判之日从主那里得怜悯。
- start: 1963.855
  end: 1968.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Whether he’s referring to the general judgment or the particular judgment doesn’t really matter.
  zh: 他指的是普遍审判还是个别审判并不重要。
- start: 1968.518
  end: 1972.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: A soul receiving the mercy of God after life?
  zh: 一个灵魂在死后接受神的怜悯？
- start: 1972.581
  end: 1983.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Hmm, sounds a lot like praying for the dead, which implies the existence of a final purification of the elect in the afterlife.
  zh: 嗯，这听起来很像为死者祈祷，这暗示着选民在来世有最后的净化。
- start: 1983.792
  end: 1993.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So many have looked to 2 Timothy 1:18-19 and 2 Peter 4:19-20, where St. Paul prays for the dead.
  zh: 所以很多人看到提后1:18-19和彼后4:19-20，在那里保罗为死者祈祷。
- start: 1994.019
  end: 2003.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We have a Jewish testimony and a Christian testimony to this practice of praying for the dead—something that we as Catholics have been doing for the past 2,000 years, right?
  zh: 我们有犹太人的见证和基督徒的见证，证明这种为死者祈祷的做法——这是我们作为公教徒在过去2000年一直在做的事，对吧？
- start: 2004.024
  end: 2008.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, now, and still to this day—did you say the Jews?
  zh: 好的，现在，直到今天——你说犹太人？
- start: 2009.326
  end: 2011.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Yeah, indeed, indeed, indeed, yes!
  zh: 是的，确实，确实，确实，是的！
- start: 2011.307
  end: 2014.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This is something that is still performed.
  zh: 这是仍然在进行的事。
- start: 2015.829
  end: 2016.329
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What did you say?
  zh: 你说什么？
- start: 2016.329
  end: 2017.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Pray for the Father?
  zh: 为天父祈祷？
- start: 2018.91
  end: 2025.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: All right, now we come to the third part of tonight's talk, and we’ll try to run through these very quickly here, as time is winding down.
  zh: 好的，现在我们来到今晚讲话的第三部分，由于时间不多了，我们会尽量快速地讲完这些。
- start: 2025.995
  end: 2028.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That is answering a few common objections.
  zh: 那就是回答一些常见的反对意见。
- start: 2028.536
  end: 2046.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'The first objection that normally arises when we’re talking to our Protestant brothers and sisters goes as follows: the Catholic doctrine of purgatory implies that a person who has accepted Christ and who has been saved—right?—entered'
  zh: 当我们与新教弟兄姐妹交谈时，通常出现的第一个反对意见如下：公教会关于炼狱的教义暗示一个已经接受基督并得救的人——对吧？——进入了
- start: 2046.723
  end: 2051.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: into a saving relationship with Jesus is not totally purified.
  zh: 与耶稣建立了得救关系却没有完全得到净化。
- start: 2051.864
  end: 2060.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'I mean, that’s what the Catholic doctrine of purgatory implies: that a saved soul is not yet perfectly purified, as the Catechism states.'
  zh: 我的意思是，这就是公教会炼狱教义所暗示的：正如《公教会教理》所说，一个得救的灵魂还没有完全得到净化。
- start: 2061.127
  end: 2070.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Some will argue, you know, if that soul is not perfectly purified and has to be purified through suffering and works of love, etc.,
  zh: 有人会说，你知道，如果那个灵魂没有完全得到净化，还必须通过苦难和爱的工作等来净化，
- start: 2070.877
  end: 2074.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: doesn’t that take away from the power of the cross of Christ?
  zh: 这不是削弱了基督十字架的能力吗？
- start: 2075.021
  end: 2088.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I mean, doesn’t that say or doesn’t that imply that the redemption of Jesus Christ on the cross that He won for us is not sufficient and not powerful enough to totally purify us?
  zh: 我的意思是，这不是在说或暗示耶稣基督在十字架上为我们赢得的救赎不够充分，不够有力来完全净化我们吗？
- start: 2088.855
  end: 2095.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If you’re saying you’re saved but you’ve still got to be purified, well, that seems to imply Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was insufficient.
  zh: 如果你说你已经得救但仍然需要被净化，好吧，这似乎暗示耶稣在十字架上的牺牲是不够的。
- start: 2096.022
  end: 2098.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Can you feel the weight of that objection?
  zh: 你能感受到这个反对意见的分量吗？
- start: 2098.905
  end: 2106.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I could see, on the surface, that it would seem, due to a misunderstanding, to take away from the cross of Christ.
  zh: 我能看到，表面上看，由于误解，这似乎是在削弱基督的十字架。
- start: 2106.412
  end: 2107.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So how do we answer that?
  zh: 那么我们如何回答这个问题？
- start: 2107.893
  end: 2120.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, the first step by which we can answer this objection is by distinguishing what we refer to as the objective level of redemption and the subjective level of redemption.
  zh: 好吧，我们回答这个反对意见的第一步是区分我们所说的客观层面的救赎和主观层面的救赎。
- start: 2121.002
  end: 2129.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Jesus' suffering on the cross is sufficient for redemption on an objective level.
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的受难在客观层面上足以完成救赎。
- start: 2129.125
  end: 2141.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In other words, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross has redeemed the world and humanity, reuniting humanity back to God, which was a relationship broken by the original fall of Adam and Eve.
  zh: 换句话说，耶稣在十字架上的牺牲已经救赎了世界和人类，使人类重新与神联合，这种关系曾因亚当和夏娃的原罪而破裂。
- start: 2141.213
  end: 2154.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So on an objective level, independent of your belief or my belief, objectively, the world and humanity has been redeemed through the blood of Jesus on the cross, reuniting humanity back to God.
  zh: 所以在客观层面上，不管你的信仰或我的信仰如何，客观上，世界和人类已经通过耶稣在十字架上的宝血得到救赎，使人类重新与神联合。
- start: 2154.002
  end: 2174.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Further, on an objective level, Jesus' death on the cross has merited the possibility of my individual salvation or redemption, so that I, Carlo, can possibly be saved from my sins due to the merits of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
  zh: 此外，在客观层面上，耶稣在十字架上的死为我个人的救恩或救赎赢得了可能性，这样我，卡洛，就可能因耶稣在十字架上牺牲的功德而从我的罪中得救。
- start: 2175.356
  end: 2175.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: All right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 2175.356
  end: 2181.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'So that’s on an objective level: Jesus'' death on the cross is sufficient for redemption.'
  zh: 所以这是在客观层面上：耶稣在十字架上的死足以完成救赎。
- start: 2182.282
  end: 2197.494
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, the merits of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross have to be applied to my individual soul, which has to do with the subjective level of redemption.
  zh: 然而，耶稣在十字架上牺牲的功德必须应用到我个人的灵魂上，这涉及到主观层面的救赎。
- start: 2197.755
  end: 2201.718
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Bible witnesses to this; even our Protestant brothers and sisters would believe this.
  zh: 圣经为此作见证；即使我们的新教弟兄姐妹也会相信这一点。
- start: 2201.718
  end: 2205.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You know, just because Jesus died on the cross doesn’t mean everybody’s going to Heaven, right?
  zh: 你知道，仅仅因为耶稣死在十字架上并不意味着每个人都会上天堂，对吧？
- start: 2205.501
  end: 2208.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s a subjective element—a part of man.
  zh: 这里有一个主观因素——人的部分。
- start: 2208.804
  end: 2213.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How are the merits of Jesus on the cross applied to the soul on the subjective level?
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的功德如何在主观层面上应用到灵魂上？
- start: 2213.828
  end: 2218.712
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Well, as our Protestant friends would be more than happy to affirm: belief or faith.'
  zh: 好吧，正如我们的新教朋友会很乐意确认的：相信或信心。
- start: 2218.852
  end: 2221.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Famous passage, John 3:16, right?
  zh: 著名的经文，约3:16，对吧？
- start: 2221.073
  end: 2227.794
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but shall have eternal life.
  zh: 神爱世人，甚至将他的独生子赐给他们，叫一切信他的，不至灭亡，反得永生。
- start: 2227.894
  end: 2230.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So belief or faith is absolutely necessary.
  zh: 所以信仰或信心是绝对必要的。
- start: 2230.935
  end: 2237.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Through faith, the merits of Christ on the cross are subjectively applied to my individual soul.
  zh: 通过信心，基督在十字架上的功德主观上应用到我个人的灵魂上。
- start: 2237.477
  end: 2247.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Would somebody say, Well, wait a minute, Carlo, if you’ve got to believe to be saved, doesn’t that take away from the sufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross?
  zh: 有人会说，等一下，卡洛，如果你必须相信才能得救，这不是削弱了耶稣在十字架上的死的充分性吗？
- start: 2247.459
  end: 2249.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Absolutely not, right?
  zh: 当然不是，对吧？
- start: 2249.58
  end: 2253.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So you see how those merits have to be applied through faith.
  zh: 所以你看到这些功德必须通过信心来应用。
- start: 2253.261
  end: 2260.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Paul even teaches us that the merits of Christ's sacrifice on the cross are applied to us through suffering.
  zh: 保罗甚至教导我们，基督在十字架上牺牲的功德是通过苦难应用到我们身上的。
- start: 2260.603
  end: 2274.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He teaches in Colossians 1:24, Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh, I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the Church.
  zh: 他在西1:24教导说：现在我为你们受苦，倒觉欢乐，并且为基督的身体，就是为教会，要在我肉身上补满基督患难的缺欠。
- start: 2274.847
  end: 2281.413
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Wait a minute, Paul, you complete what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ?
  zh: 等一下，保罗，你要补满基督患难的缺欠？
- start: 2282.055
  end: 2288.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Are you saying that Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is insufficient for my salvation?
  zh: 你是在说耶稣在十字架上的牺牲对我的救恩来说是不够的吗？
- start: 2289.264
  end: 2290.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Is that what Paul is saying?
  zh: 这是保罗的意思吗？
- start: 2290.784
  end: 2295.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No, Paul is not referring to the objective level of redemption.
  zh: 不，保罗不是在指客观层面的救赎。
- start: 2295.866
  end: 2297.367
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is Paul referring to?
  zh: 保罗指的是什么？
- start: 2297.367
  end: 2299.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The subjective level.
  zh: 主观层面。
- start: 2299.507
  end: 2314.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Paul is teaching us that through suffering, my friends, the merits of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross can be applied to my soul, and it is in that sense that he talks about making up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.
  zh: 朋友们，保罗教导我们，通过苦难，耶稣在十字架上牺牲的功德可以应用到我的灵魂上，正是在这个意义上他谈到补满基督患难的缺欠。
- start: 2314.372
  end: 2316.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is lacking in the sufferings of Christ?
  zh: 基督的患难中缺少什么？
- start: 2316.113
  end: 2326.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Not the objectivity of His death on the cross, but the subjective application and making that up—satisfying that for the sake of the whole body.
  zh: 不是他在十字架上的死的客观性，而是主观的应用和补满——为了整个身体的缘故而满足这一点。
- start: 2326.487
  end: 2328.847
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So notice there’s redemptive suffering here.
  zh: 所以注意这里有救赎性的苦难。
- start: 2329.028
  end: 2330.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Paul suffers for the sake of what?
  zh: 保罗为了什么而受苦？
- start: 2330.788
  end: 2332.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The body—the Church.
  zh: 身体——教会。
- start: 2332.148
  end: 2335.549
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Through my suffering, united to Christ, I can affect your soul.
  zh: 通过我的苦难，与基督联合，我能影响你的灵魂。
- start: 2335.889
  end: 2339.27
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So you see the communion of saints built into that theology.
  zh: 所以你看到圣徒相通建立在那个神学之中。
- start: 2339.27
  end: 2346.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You see the idea of redemptive suffering—that suffering can have purpose and meaning according to Christian revelation.
  zh: 你看到救赎性苦难的概念——根据基督教启示，苦难可以有目的和意义。
- start: 2346.171
  end: 2354.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We also know from the teaching of St. Paul that baptism applies the objective merits won for us by Jesus on the cross.
  zh: 我们从保罗的教导中也知道，洗礼使耶稣在十字架上为我们赢得的客观功德得以应用。
- start: 2354.617
  end: 2364.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In Romans 6:3-4, St. Paul says, Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
  zh: 在罗6:3-4，保罗说：岂不知我们这受洗归入基督耶稣的人，是受洗归入他的死吗？
- start: 2364.063
  end: 2372.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We were buried therefore with Him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
  zh: 所以我们藉着洗礼归入死，和他一同埋葬，原是叫我们一举一动有新生的样式，像基督藉着父的荣耀从死里复活一样。
- start: 2373.048
  end: 2380.015
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Notice, according to St. Paul, in order to die to the old man and rise in Christ with the resurrected life—which is what?
  zh: 注意，根据保罗的说法，为了向旧人死去并在基督里以复活的生命复活——这是什么？
- start: 2380.015
  end: 2384.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross—it’s through baptism.
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的死的功德的应用——是通过洗礼。
- start: 2384.88
  end: 2395.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So we see that on an objective level, Jesus' death on the cross is sufficient, but those merits have to be applied on a subjective level.
  zh: 所以我们看到在客观层面上，耶稣在十字架上的死是充分的，但这些功德必须在主观层面上得到应用。
- start: 2395.85
  end: 2405.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'This leads us to step two: the application of the merits of Christ''s death on the cross to the soul is a process, friends.'
  zh: 这带我们到第二步：朋友们，基督在十字架上的死的功德应用到灵魂上是一个过程。
- start: 2405.478
  end: 2414.785
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s not a one-time deal, but the application to the soul is a process that we go through in stages.
  zh: 这不是一次性的事，而是我们分阶段经历的一个应用到灵魂的过程。
- start: 2414.805
  end: 2425.015
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s an initial stage where the merits of Christ's cross are applied to the soul in the sacrament of baptism, and you’re entering into that covenantal relationship with God the Father, right?
  zh: 有一个初始阶段，基督十字架的功德在洗礼圣事中应用到灵魂上，你进入了与圣父的约的关系，对吧？
- start: 2425.015
  end: 2425.916
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And the Son of the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 以及圣子和圣灵。
- start: 2425.916
  end: 2427.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You’re saved!
  zh: 你得救了！
- start: 2427.097
  end: 2430.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You’re a saved one; your soul is purified.
  zh: 你是得救的人；你的灵魂得到净化。
- start: 2430.12
  end: 2433.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But the application continues.
  zh: 但这应用仍在继续。
- start: 2433.883
  end: 2438.367
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The subjective level of redemption continues in a process throughout our life.
  zh: 救赎的主观层面在我们的一生中继续进行。
- start: 2438.427
  end: 2442.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We might even refer to it as a process of sanctification.
  zh: 我们甚至可以称之为成圣的过程。
- start: 2442.431
  end: 2455.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s salvation, where you enter into a saving relationship with Christ—friendship with Christ—but the soul has to be sanctified, has to go through a process of sanctification throughout one’s life.
  zh: 有得救，就是你进入与基督的救恩关系——与基督的友谊——但灵魂必须被圣化，必须在一生中经历成圣的过程。
- start: 2455.361
  end: 2457.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And the Bible testifies to this.
  zh: 圣经为此作见证。
- start: 2459.682
  end: 2468.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I am sure that He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
  zh: 我深信那在你们心里动了善工的，必成全这工，直到耶稣基督的日子。
- start: 2468.249
  end: 2470.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Beginning a good work?
  zh: 开始了善工？
- start: 2470.03
  end: 2473.973
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Sounds like the initial stage of justification or redemption or salvation.
  zh: 听起来像是称义或救赎或得救的初始阶段。
- start: 2474.173
  end: 2476.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But bringing that good work to what?
  zh: 但要把那善工带到什么地步？
- start: 2476.855
  end: 2477.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Completion.
  zh: 完全。
- start: 2477.656
  end: 2481.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Notice there’s some not yet there, right?
  zh: 注意还有一些尚未达到的，对吧？
- start: 2481.379
  end: 2493.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: There’s a presence; it’s present, but it’s not completely perfected yet—the process of sanctification, of bringing the good work to perfection.
  zh: 有一个同在；它存在，但还没有完全成全——这是成圣的过程，把善工带向完全。
- start: 2493.654
  end: 2504.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In 2 Corinthians 7:1, St. Paul writes, Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, and make holiness perfect in the fear of God.
  zh: 在林后7:1，保罗写道：亲爱的弟兄啊，我们既有这等应许，就当洁净自己，除去身体灵魂一切的污秽，敬畏神，得以成圣。
- start: 2504.956
  end: 2510.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Note the theme of cleansing the spirit—making that holiness perfect.
  zh: 注意洁净灵魂的主题——使圣洁完全。
- start: 2510.893
  end: 2513.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, wait a minute, Paul; I thought you were already holy.
  zh: 等一下，保罗；我以为你已经是圣洁的了。
- start: 2513.476
  end: 2514.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Weren’t you saved?
  zh: 你不是已经得救了吗？
- start: 2514.237
  end: 2519.022
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Weren’t you believing, as our Protestant brothers and sisters say, a born-again Christian?
  zh: 正如我们的新教弟兄姐妹所说，你不是一个重生的基督徒吗？
- start: 2519.022
  end: 2521.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: As Catholics, we might say a born-again Christian because guess what?
  zh: 作为公教徒，我们可能会说一个重生的基督徒，因为你猜怎么着？
- start: 2521.325
  end: 2522.505
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He was baptized!
  zh: 他受过洗礼！
- start: 2522.706
  end: 2523.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Amen?
  zh: 阿们？
- start: 2523.387
  end: 2523.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Catholics?
  zh: 公教徒们？
- start: 2523.908
  end: 2524.388
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Amen.
  zh: 阿们。
- start: 2524.388
  end: 2527.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, baptism is our rebirth.
  zh: 好的，洗礼是我们的重生。
- start: 2527.291
  end: 2530.872
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But Paul is a born-again Christian; he is in a saving relationship with God.
  zh: 但保罗是一个重生的基督徒；他与神有得救的关系。
- start: 2530.872
  end: 2535.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He is an hagioi, a holy one—a little s saint, right?
  zh: 他是一个圣徒，一个圣洁的人——一个小写的圣徒，对吧？
- start: 2535.273
  end: 2540.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But yet, he mentions that the holiness is not yet perfected.
  zh: 但是，他提到圣洁还没有完全。
- start: 2540.274
  end: 2550.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This is pointing to the Catholic understanding of the process of sanctification—the application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross continually being applied to the soul.
  zh: 这指向公教会对成圣过程的理解——耶稣在十字架上的死的功德持续地应用到灵魂上。
- start: 2550.316
  end: 2552.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Does that take away from the suffering of Christ?
  zh: 这会削弱基督的受难吗？
- start: 2553.365
  end: 2558.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Does this process of sanctification imply that Jesus' death was insufficient?
  zh: 这个成圣的过程是否暗示耶稣的死是不够的？
- start: 2559.829
  end: 2569.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No! Then finally, St. Peter writes in 1 Peter 1:22, Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere love of the brethren, love one another earnestly from the heart.
  zh: 不！然后最后，彼得在彼前1:22写道：你们既因顺从真理，洁净了自己的心，以致爱弟兄没有虚假，就当从心里彼此切实相爱。
- start: 2569.116
  end: 2575.7
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Obedience to the truth has purified, and love has made love sincere.
  zh: 顺从真理使人得洁净，爱使爱变得真诚。
- start: 2576.3
  end: 2589.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: As the other places in Scripture teach us, as St. Paul says in Romans 6:16, obedience leads to justification—not just a one-time obedience, but a constant confession of faith, as Hebrews 4:14 suggests.
  zh: 正如圣经其他地方教导我们的，如保罗在罗6:16所说，顺从引向称义——不仅仅是一次性的顺从，而是持续不断的信仰告白，如来4:14所示。
- start: 2589.086
  end: 2596.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We constantly confess our love in Christ and obey the truth, constantly purifying our soul.
  zh: 我们不断地在基督里告白我们的爱并顺从真理，不断地洁净我们的灵魂。
- start: 2596.37
  end: 2601.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That doesn't take away from Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.
  zh: 这并不削弱耶稣在十字架上的牺牲。
- start: 2606.864
  end: 2634.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In conclusion, in light of the fact that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross have to be subjectively applied, and that subjective application is a process throughout one’s life in different stages of being sanctified, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory—which implies that a saved soul has to be perfectly purified—doesn't take away from the cross of Christ.
  zh: 总之，鉴于耶稣在十字架上的死的功德必须主观地应用，而这种主观应用是一个人一生中在不同成圣阶段的过程，公教会的炼狱教义——暗示一个得救的灵魂必须完全净化——并不削弱基督的十字架。
- start: 2634.615
  end: 2641.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It does not imply that Jesus' death on the cross is insufficient or not powerful enough to make us holy.
  zh: 这并不意味着耶稣在十字架上的死不够或不够有力使我们成圣。
- start: 2641.981
  end: 2643.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Au contraire!
  zh: 恰恰相反！
- start: 2643.422
  end: 2661.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: On the contrary, it actually witnesses to the power of Jesus' death on the cross because, through the process of sanctification, when my soul is being purified through belief, through suffering, as St. Paul says, or initially through baptism and obedience to the truth through love, guess what?
  zh: 相反，它实际上见证了耶稣在十字架上的死的能力，因为通过成圣的过程，当我的灵魂通过信心，通过苦难（如保罗所说），或最初通过洗礼和通过爱来顺从真理而得到净化时，你猜怎么着？
- start: 2661.711
  end: 2664.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: My soul is being purified by what?
  zh: 我的灵魂是被什么净化的？
- start: 2664.392
  end: 2670.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The merits of Jesus' death on the cross, being applied throughout my life to my soul.
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的死的功德，在我的一生中不断应用到我的灵魂上。
- start: 2670.994
  end: 2675.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, rather than taking away from Jesus' death on the cross, it glorifies Him.
  zh: 所以，这不是削弱耶稣在十字架上的死，而是荣耀他。
- start: 2676.246
  end: 2678.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, I'm out of time here.
  zh: 现在，我的时间到了。
- start: 2679.848
  end: 2690.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Unfortunately, I apologize; I was not able to get to objections two and three, but you see there on your handout, just very briefly, I won’t go into it in detail.
  zh: 很抱歉，我没能讲到第二和第三个反对意见，但你们在讲义上可以看到，我只是很简短地提一下，不会详细讲解。
- start: 2690.993
  end: 2702.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Objection two is very similar to objection one; it's based upon the idea that the divine justice of God has been totally satisfied by the death of Jesus on the cross.
  zh: 第二个反对意见与第一个很相似；它基于神的公义已经完全被耶稣在十字架上的死所满足的观念。
- start: 2705.299
  end: 2712.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He suffered—here's the pitch line—He suffered so that I don't have to suffer.
  zh: 他受苦——这是关键——他受苦是为了让我不必受苦。
- start: 2712.802
  end: 2721.009
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He paid the price of sin, suffering, and death in order that I do not have to pay the price of sin, suffering, and death.
  zh: 他付出了罪、苦难和死亡的代价，为的是让我不必付出罪、苦难和死亡的代价。
- start: 2721.089
  end: 2726.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'So the objection runs as follows: Well, the Catholic doctrine of purgatory says, Well, wait a minute!'
  zh: 所以反对意见是这样的：好吧，公教会的炼狱教义说，等一下！
- start: 2726.114
  end: 2731.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Even though you’re forgiven as a sinner, you’ve still got to suffer a little bit with this temporal punishment stuff.
  zh: 即使你作为罪人得到宽恕，你仍然要承受一些今世的惩罚。
- start: 2731.238
  end: 2735.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, doesn't that imply the insufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross?
  zh: 那么，这不是暗示耶稣在十字架上的死是不够的吗？
- start: 2735.682
  end: 2738.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Didn't He suffer so that I don’t have to suffer?
  zh: 他受苦不是为了让我不必受苦吗？
- start: 2739.546
  end: 2742.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Isn't that what temporal punishment implies?
  zh: 这不就是今世惩罚所暗示的吗？
- start: 2742.731
  end: 2745.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And the answer to that is obviously no.
  zh: 而答案显然是否定的。
- start: 2745.595
  end: 2751.751
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Jesus' death on the cross won for us the forgiveness of the guilt of sin; that’s the objective level.
  zh: 耶稣在十字架上的死为我们赢得了罪责的赦免；这是客观层面。
- start: 2751.751
  end: 2755.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He made it possible for the guilt of sin to be washed away from my soul.
  zh: 他使罪责可以从我的灵魂中被洗净。
- start: 2756.174
  end: 2763.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, that does not negate the fact that temporal punishment still remains even after the sin is forgiven.
  zh: 然而，这并不否认即使罪得赦免后，今世的惩罚仍然存在的事实。
- start: 2763.539
  end: 2763.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 2763.859
  end: 2768.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: As I mentioned before, because man has done something in the offense.
  zh: 如我之前提到的，因为人在冒犯中做了某事。
- start: 2768.922
  end: 2779.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: God takes care of the consequence of sin that man cannot take care of, but man does—and indeed should—play a part in taking care of the temporal consequence.
  zh: 神处理人无法处理的罪的后果，但人确实——而且应该——在处理今世后果中发挥作用。
- start: 2779.631
  end: 2784.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Where in the Bible does it speak of temporal punishment for forgiven sinners?
  zh: 圣经在哪里谈到对已得赦免的罪人的今世惩罚？
- start: 2784.136
  end: 2785.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Check out the Garden of Eden, right?
  zh: 看看伊甸园，对吧？
- start: 2785.898
  end: 2801.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The temporal consequences for the original sin are seen in Genesis 3:16-19. Also, consider the lie about the Promised Land in Numbers 14, verses 20-23. Recall how the 12 spies go into the Promised Land; they come back, and 10 of the 12 say, We can’t take the land.
  zh: 原罪的今世后果可见于创3:16-19。另外，想想民14:20-23中关于应许之地的谎言。回想12个探子如何进入应许之地；他们回来后，12个中的10个说，我们不能占领那地。
- start: 2801.974
  end: 2804.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What happens to all of the Israelites?
  zh: 所有的以色列人怎么样了？
- start: 2804.116
  end: 2805.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They begin murmuring against the Lord.
  zh: 他们开始向主发怨言。
- start: 2805.937
  end: 2809.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You know what Numbers 14:20 states?
  zh: 你知道民14:20说什么吗？
- start: 2809.44
  end: 2812.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The Lord speaks and says, I have pardoned them of their sin.
  zh: 主说话说：「我照着你的话赦免了他们。」
- start: 2812.602
  end: 2815.004
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But what’s the temporal consequence?
  zh: 但今世的后果是什么？
- start: 2815.004
  end: 2819.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They’re going to wander in the desert for 40 years, and that first generation is going to die off.
  zh: 他们要在旷野飘流40年，第一代人都要死去。
- start: 2819.81
  end: 2825.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Only the second generation, 19 and under, will experience the Promised Land and enter into it.
  zh: 只有第二代，19岁及以下的，才会经历并进入应许之地。
- start: 2825.556
  end: 2829.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So there’s a temporal punishment, even though the Lord forgave them of their sin.
  zh: 所以即使主赦免了他们的罪，仍有今世的惩罚。
- start: 2829.741
  end: 2836.959
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thirdly, remember the story of David and his adultery.
  zh: 第三，记得大卫和他的通奸的故事。
- start: 2836.959
  end: 2840.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He repents wholeheartedly—Psalm 51 is the psalm of that repentance.
  zh: 他全心悔改——诗51是那次悔改的诗篇。
- start: 2840.382
  end: 2844.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But as the prophet Nathan tells him, The Lord has forgiven you, David.
  zh: 但正如先知拿单告诉他：「主已赦免你的罪，大卫。」
- start: 2844.305
  end: 2845.306
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But guess what?
  zh: 但你猜怎么着？
- start: 2845.306
  end: 2849.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'You’re going to have a pretty harsh temporal punishment: your son shall die.'
  zh: 你要受到相当严厉的今世惩罚：你的儿子要死。
- start: 2849.029
  end: 2849.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 2849.889
  end: 2853.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Now, that’s not an eternal punishment; that’s a pretty harsh temporal punishment, but nevertheless, it’s temporal.
  zh: 现在，这不是永恒的惩罚；这是相当严厉的今世惩罚，但无论如何，这是今世的。
- start: 2853.552
  end: 2854.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, these examples highlight the concept of temporal punishment that can exist even after sin is forgiven.
  zh: 所以，这些例子突出了即使罪得赦免后仍可能存在今世惩罚的概念。
- start: 2854.493
  end: 2863.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: For a forgiven sinner, Luke 3:8 shows St. John the Baptist saying, Produce fruits worthy of repentance.
  zh: 对于得赦免的罪人，路3:8显示施洗约翰说：「你们要结出果子来，与悔改的心相称。」
- start: 2863.42
  end: 2869.703
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So we repent, we’re forgiven of our sins, but we still have to do something and produce fruits worthy of that.
  zh: 所以我们悔改，我们的罪得赦免，但我们仍然要做一些事并结出与之相称的果子。
- start: 2869.763
  end: 2870.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This ties into the idea of penance.
  zh: 这与补赎的概念相联系。
- start: 2870.983
  end: 2882.448
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: In Luke 12:47-48, remember when Jesus talks about how the one who knows better is going to receive stripes for wrongdoing, right?
  zh: 在路12:47-48，记得耶稣谈到知道得更清楚的人会因做错事受责打，对吧？
- start: 2882.548
  end: 2893.555
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But the one who does not know or is ignorant of the wrongdoing still receives stripes for the wrongdoing—that is, receives punishment—but it’s lesser.
  zh: 但那不知道或对错事无知的人仍会因做错事受责打——就是说，受惩罚——但程度较轻。
- start: 2893.756
  end: 2897.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s a lesser form of punishment than the one who did know.
  zh: 这是比知道的人较轻的惩罚形式。
- start: 2897.339
  end: 2903.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So there seem to be differing degrees of punishment there, possibly very close or akin to temporal punishment.
  zh: 所以那里似乎有不同程度的惩罚，可能非常接近或类似于今世的惩罚。
- start: 2903.965
  end: 2914.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Finally, St. Paul excommunicates the immoral member of the Church in Corinth in 1 Corinthians 5:1-2. Excommunication is a temporal punishment.
  zh: 最后，保罗在林前5:1-2中将哥林多教会中不道德的成员逐出教会。逐出教会是一种今世的惩罚。
- start: 2917.005
  end: 2927.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Remember when the member would repent, according to 2 Corinthians 2, St. Paul readmits him back into fellowship, lifting the ban of excommunication.
  zh: 记得当那成员悔改时，根据林后2，保罗重新接纳他回到团契，解除了逐出教会的禁令。
- start: 2927.029
  end: 2933.832
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But the idea is that there are temporal consequences—there are temporal punishments due for sin, and the Bible makes this clear.
  zh: 但这个概念是有今世的后果——有因罪而来的今世惩罚，圣经把这一点讲得很清楚。
- start: 2934.052
  end: 2947.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, for the Catholic Church to teach that temporal punishment due for sin remains even after the guilt of sin is forgiven does not imply the insufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross.
  zh: 所以，公教会教导即使罪责得赦免后，因罪而来的今世惩罚仍然存在，这并不意味着耶稣在十字架上的死是不够的。
- start: 2948.024
  end: 2952.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Temporal punishment is a reality according to the Bible.
  zh: 根据圣经，今世的惩罚是一个现实。
- start: 2952.167
  end: 2961.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Now, finally, objection number three: some will say, in 2 Corinthians 5:8, St. Paul says, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.'
  zh: 现在，最后，第三个反对意见：有人会说，在林后5:8，保罗说，离开身体便与主同住。
- start: 2961.414
  end: 2963.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Is that what St. Paul says?
  zh: 这是保罗说的吗？
- start: 2964.304
  end: 2966.965
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So what’s the indication and what’s the implication?
  zh: 那么这表明什么，暗示什么？
- start: 2966.965
  end: 2973.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Well, if to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, there’s no room for purgatory there, right?
  zh: 好吧，如果离开身体就是与主同在，那就没有炼狱的余地了，对吧？
- start: 2973.266
  end: 2976.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If you’re dying in friendship with Christ, what does St. Paul say?
  zh: 如果你在与基督的友谊中死去，保罗说什么？
- start: 2976.547
  end: 2984.789
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He says, We are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
  zh: 他说：我们坦然无惧，是更愿意离开身体与主同住。
- start: 2984.789
  end: 2994.452
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Paul does not say that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, indicating that there would be no room for purgatory.
  zh: 保罗并没有说离开身体就是与主同在，表明没有炼狱的余地。
- start: 2994.652
  end: 3000.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No, he says, I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
  zh: 不，他说，我宁愿离开身体与主同在。
- start: 3000.234
  end: 3005.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He’s not saying if A, then B; he’s saying he desires both A and B, right?
  zh: 他不是在说如果A就B；他是在说他渴望A和B，对吧？
- start: 3005.596
  end: 3007.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: To be present with the Lord—guess what?
  zh: 与主同在——你猜怎么着？
- start: 3007.457
  end: 3010.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s to be absent from the body, and we can be assured of that.
  zh: 那就是离开身体，我们可以确信这一点。
- start: 3011.519
  end: 3016.823
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, to be absent from the body does not necessarily imply you’re present with the Lord.
  zh: 然而，离开身体并不一定意味着你就与主同在。
- start: 3017.004
  end: 3032.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Some will try and use 2 Corinthians 5:8 to negate the Catholic understanding of purgatory, but the argument doesn't hold water because they’re reading into the text something that St. Paul is not saying.
  zh: 有些人会试图用林后5:8来否定公教会对炼狱的理解，但这个论点站不住脚，因为他们在文本中读出了保罗没有说的东西。
- start: 3032.459
  end: 3040.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So these are three common objections that often arise, and hopefully, we have a little bit of information to answer them.
  zh: 所以这些是经常出现的三个常见反对意见，希望我们有一些信息来回答它们。
- start: 3040.084
  end: 3045.628
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Then finally, in part number four, I was going to share with you some quotes from the early Church Fathers.
  zh: 然后最后，在第四部分，我要和你们分享一些早期教父的引言。
- start: 3045.628
  end: 3050.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Clement of Alexandria speaks of the reality of purgatory.
  zh: 亚历山大的圣克莱门特谈到炼狱的现实。
- start: 3050.271
  end: 3081.858
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They all refer to some sort of purifying fire after death, drawing off of St. Paul’s imagery in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. So we have St. Clement of Alexandria in 200 AD, Tertullian in 200 AD, Lactantius—who was an early Christian author and actually a tutor of Constantine’s son—around 240 AD. He lived from 240 to 320, so it would have been in the late 3rd century to the early 4th century when he’s writing about purgatory.
  zh: 他们都提到死后某种净化的火，这源自保罗在林前3:11-15中的意象。所以我们有公元200年的亚历山大的圣克莱门特，公元200年的特土良，公元240年左右的拉克坦提乌斯——他是一位早期基督教作家，实际上是君士坦丁儿子的导师。他生活在公元240年到320年，所以他写关于炼狱的内容是在三世纪末到四世纪初。
- start: 3081.858
  end: 3089.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We also have St. Basil the Great in the late 4th century and St. Gregory of Nyssa in the late 4th century as well.
  zh: 我们还有四世纪末的大圣巴西流和同样在四世纪末的尼撒的圣贵格利。
- start: 3089.488
  end: 3104.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: St. Basil the Great and St. Gregory of Nyssa are two prominent figures from the Eastern Church, and they testify to the existence of this purifying fire after death.
  zh: 大圣巴西流和尼撒的圣贵格利是东方教会的两位重要人物，他们见证了死后这种净化之火的存在。
- start: 3104.14
  end: 3110.123
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s important because there are some differing positions among our Orthodox brothers and sisters.
  zh: 这很重要，因为在我们东正教的弟兄姐妹中有一些不同的立场。
- start: 3110.183
  end: 3119.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Some Orthodox Christians accept the reality of purgatory, although their understanding of it may be a little bit different from how the Church has defined it.
  zh: 一些东正教基督徒接受炼狱的现实，尽管他们对它的理解可能与教会的定义有些不同。
- start: 3119.208
  end: 3133.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Some Orthodox Christians totally reject the existence of purgatory, but that comes with the territory because they have no magisterium to officially define their teaching.
  zh: 一些东正教基督徒完全否认炼狱的存在，但这是可以理解的，因为他们没有训导权来正式定义他们的教导。
- start: 3133.941
  end: 3138.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So you’re going to have varying degrees of belief even among Orthodox Christians.
  zh: 所以即使在东正教基督徒中也会有不同程度的信仰。
- start: 3139.547
  end: 3145.615
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, my dear friends, hopefully, that provides a brief catechetical and apologetical teaching on purgatory.
  zh: 所以，亲爱的朋友们，希望这提供了关于炼狱的简要教理和护教学教导。
- start: 3145.615
  end: 3147.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I hope you learned a thing or three.
  zh: 我希望你们学到了一两三件事。
- start: 3148.059
  end: 3157.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I’ll go ahead and stop right now officially on the teaching and just, very briefly, over the break, the question of indulgences came up.
  zh: 我现在正式结束教导，只是很简短地，在休息时间，大赦的问题被提出来了。
- start: 3157.743
  end: 3159.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: First of all, what is an indulgence?
  zh: 首先，什么是大赦？
- start: 3159.384
  end: 3187.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: An indulgence is basically an act of charity or some form of act or work of mercy that the Church will ascribe to say that if you perform that act of charity under certain conditions, you will remit either some temporal punishment due to sin—we call that a partial indulgence—or this act of charity, under certain conditions, will remit all temporal punishment due for sin.
  zh: 大赦基本上是一种慈善行为或某种形式的慈悲工作，教会规定如果你在某些条件下执行那种慈善行为，你将免除一些因罪而来的今世惩罚——我们称之为限大赦——或者这种慈善行为，在某些条件下，将免除所有因罪而来的今世惩罚。
- start: 3187.853
  end: 3191.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That’s called a plenary indulgence, okay?
  zh: 这被称为全大赦，好吗？
- start: 3191.074
  end: 3192.494
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So that’s what an indulgence is.
  zh: 所以这就是大赦。
- start: 3192.575
  end: 3198.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: An indulgence is the Church saying that this particular act of love can remit temporal punishment due for sin.
  zh: 大赦就是教会说这特定的爱的行为可以免除因罪而来的今世惩罚。
- start: 3198.497
  end: 3199.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: All right?
  zh: 明白吗？
- start: 3199.458
  end: 3201.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Nothing new under the sun for that, right?
  zh: 这没什么新鲜的，对吧？
- start: 3201.819
  end: 3202.399
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是吗？
- start: 3202.399
  end: 3205.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For sin already forgiven—very good qualification!
  zh: 对于已经被赦免的罪——很好的补充说明！
- start: 3205.94
  end: 3208.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: For sin already forgiven.
  zh: 对于已经被赦免的罪。
- start: 3208.0
  end: 3216.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So it’s not a matter of being forgiven of your sin; it’s simply remitting the temporal punishment due for the forgiven sin.
  zh: 所以这不是关于你的罪得赦免的问题；这只是免除已被赦免的罪所应受的今世惩罚。
- start: 3216.102
  end: 3217.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thank you, Father.
  zh: 谢谢你，神父。
- start: 3217.423
  end: 3230.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'The question was: can a plenary indulgence or even a partial indulgence be performed by me on behalf of a soul or the souls in purgatory?'
  zh: 问题是：我能否为炼狱中的一个灵魂或多个灵魂行全大赦或限大赦？
- start: 3230.269
  end: 3232.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And the answer would be yes.
  zh: 答案是可以。
- start: 3232.35
  end: 3235.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This is a practice of Catholics throughout our tradition.
  zh: 这是公教徒在我们的传统中一直以来的做法。
- start: 3235.933
  end: 3246.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: It’s based upon the fundamental idea that my acts of love can affect you in this life and can affect you in the afterlife in your final purification.
  zh: 这基于一个基本观念，即我的爱的行为可以在今生影响你，也可以在来世的最后净化中影响你。
- start: 3246.201
  end: 3247.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Does that make sense?
  zh: 这说得通吗？
- start: 3247.422
  end: 3255.71
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: All right, so it’s a matter based on the doctrine of the communion of saints and the mystical body of Christ—how one member can affect another member.
  zh: 好的，所以这是基于圣徒相通和基督奥体的教义——一个肢体如何能影响另一个肢体。
- start: 3255.71
  end: 3262.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: However, we must make the qualification that you do not know when the indulgence is performed.
  zh: 然而，我们必须说明，你不知道大赦何时生效。
- start: 3262.096
  end: 3273.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You do not know definitively, right, whether that act of love is applied specifically and definitively to that particular soul or not because you really don’t know if that soul’s there or not, right?
  zh: 你不能确定，对吧，那爱的行为是否明确地和最终地应用到那个特定的灵魂上，因为你真的不知道那个灵魂是否在那里，对吧？
- start: 3273.904
  end: 3275.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay?
  zh: 明白吗？
- start: 3275.344
  end: 3286.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'And further, just a little note for plenary indulgences: whenever we perform a plenary indulgence, we really don’t know infallibly or with certitude if we ourselves have obtained it.'
  zh: 而且，关于全大赦还有一点说明：每当我们行全大赦时，我们真的无法无误地或确定地知道我们自己是否获得了它。
- start: 3286.509
  end: 3288.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We can do it with confidence, right?
  zh: 我们可以带着信心去做，对吧？
- start: 3288.73
  end: 3293.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But we really don’t know ourselves infallibly if we have obtained it.
  zh: 但我们真的无法无误地知道我们自己是否获得了它。
- start: 3295.2
  end: 3296.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So just keep praying—right?
  zh: 所以就继续祈祷——对吧？
- start: 3296.842
  end: 3300.724
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So there are a few little miscellaneous details there that are important to know.
  zh: 所以这里有一些重要的零散细节需要知道。
- start: 3300.724
  end: 3310.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: But in light of all of that, it’s still important to say that it is a worthy act of piety that the Church has always upheld for us to practice.
  zh: 但考虑到这一切，仍然重要的是要说，这是一个教会一直支持我们实践的有价值的虔诚行为。
- start: 3310.75
  end: 3316.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And the Church has, Father, isn't it called the Enchiridion of Indulgences or something like that?
  zh: 而且教会有，神父，它不是叫《大赦手册》还是什么吗？
- start: 3320.547
  end: 3327.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I can’t remember the exact term, but yes, there is a book listing all the things that are plenary or partial and all of the conditions necessary, which are quite a few.
  zh: 我记不得确切的名称，但是的，有一本书列出了所有全大赦或限大赦的事项，以及所有必要的条件，这些条件相当多。
- start: 3327.829
  end: 3332.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: A partial indulgence is not too hard to achieve; a plenary indulgence is quite hard.
  zh: 限大赦不太难获得；全大赦相当难。
- start: 3333.132
  end: 3333.412
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay?
  zh: 明白吗？
