Transcript

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.

God our Father, we just approach you as sons and daughters, in the name of your Son, Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

We just want to thank you for the gift of life.

We thank you for the gift of faith that we have dwelling within our souls by virtue of our baptism.

That faith which allows us to believe in you and everything that you have revealed to us, including the dogma of purgatory.

We ask that your spirit of truth may guide and lead us tonight to enlighten our mind, to empower our will.

as we meditate upon this mystery of faith.

And so we pray, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.

Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Amen.

St. Joseph, pray for us.

In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Amen.

Okay, so the doctrine of purgatory.

This is a very hot topic when it comes especially to, you know, no pun intended.

That was pretty good.

It's a hot topic, especially when it comes to Catholic and Protestant dialogues.

I will never forget there was a time back in Louisiana when I was working for a convenience store, a corporation in the state of Louisiana, and I used to do inventory and cash auditing for these stores.

And one time I was behind the counter counting the cash, right?

And I heard this guy come up to the counter and say, His products there, and I forget exactly what he said, but he said something that allowed me to conclude he was a Christian.

He was witnessing to his Christian faith, and at the time I was the young and zealous Catholic Christian, you know, talking to everybody about Jesus, and so when he ran, I ran around the counter, not to imply that I'm not that anymore, okay?

Hopefully I'm not.

Hopefully I'm still living for the Lord.

So I ran around the counter and I stopped him in the parking lot.

You know, and I just wanted to shake his hand and just affirm him in his Christian faith and thank him for being a witness to Christianity and to our Lord.

And so I shake his hand and he says, so where do you worship?

And at the time, it was at St. Michael's Catholic Church in Crowley.

And the minute I said Catholic, boy, the first thing that came out of his mouth was a question about purgatory.

Purgatory, that's a doctrine of men, and it takes away from the cross of Christ.

And we dialogued for about five minutes, and of course he was going back to work across the street.

He was just taking a break from his job.

But I found it interesting.

that just in this little bitty dialogue, the first topic that comes up, it wasn't, oh, well, thank you, you know, I'm glad you're a Christian too.

It was nothing of that nature, just purgatory.

So apparently that's a hot-button issue for our Protestant brothers and sisters.

So this talk is directed at first, that particular audience, our Protestant brothers and sisters, But secondly, for us who are Catholics here, the majority of us are indeed Catholics, for us to know how to explain the doctrine of purgatory, in particular to our Protestant brothers and sisters, but also simply for ourselves, so that we can get a clear understanding of what the Church teaches about this topic of purgatory.

Okay?

So, I've divided tonight's talk into four major parts.

Our first part will simply be the Church's teaching on the reality of Purgatory.

That will be sort of our catechetical part of tonight's talk.

Looking at nine catechetical points about the topic of Purgatory, drawing from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and a few other magisterial texts.

Secondly, we'll look at the biblical evidence for purgatory, and that'll be the crux of tonight's talk.

We will probably pause in the middle of that section of the talk to take our break this evening.

And so we'll just simply look at three sets of data that we have from the Bible that sort of establishes the biblical basis for the doctrine of purgatory.

And in our third part for tonight's talk, we'll answer a few common objections that often arise from our Protestant brothers and sisters and offer an explanation or an answer to those objections or just common questions that are asked.

And then finally, we'll look at the evidence from the early church fathers.

And look at a few quotes from some of those Christians from the early centuries of Christianity and see what they had to say about this Catholic understanding of the reality of purgatory.

So, let's dive right in.

With part number one, the church's teaching on the reality of purgatory.

As I mentioned, there are nine catechetical points that I want us to walk through coming from the catechism about purgatory.

The first catechetical point has to do with the definition of purgatory.

In paragraph 1031, 1030 to 1031, basically what we find is that the Catechism defines purgatory as the final purification of the elect after death.

the final purification of the elect after death.

Here's what the Catechism states, paragraph 1030, quote, ...all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified or indeed assured of their salvation.

But after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.

Then in paragraph 1031, the Catechism states, ...the Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect.

Okay, now that little brief synopsis of the doctrine of purgatory is loaded and it's packed and we're going to try to unpack it as we go throughout tonight's talk with the other catechetical points.

But I just want to start with the definition.

A final purification of the elect after death.

Okay?

That's all that the catechism gives us.

Now let's proceed to unpack that and see what does that mean.

This leads us to catechetical point number two.

which has to do with the object of the purification.

In other words, what is purified in the afterlife?

You know, well, we say the soul, but what is the soul being purified of in the afterlife?

Well, basically, the purification of purgatory consists of two things.

It consists of the removal of the guilt of venial sin and The temporal punishment that's due for sin.

The remaining temporal punishment due for sin.

Now, once again, that's loaded right there because we're talking about two other elements of the mysteries of our faith.

Temporal punishment due for sin.

We're talking about venial and mortal sin.

We're going to get to those things as we go through tonight's talk.

But right now, I just want to emphasize that the two things that are purified in the final purification after death we call purgatory is the removal of the guilt of venial sin and or the remaining temporary punishment due for sin.

In paragraph 1031, the Catechism states the following in reference to the guilt of venial sin being removed.

The Catechism states all who die in God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified.

Pause right there.

If we die in God's grace and friendship, that means we're saved, right?

We're guaranteed heaven.

But the Catechism mentions how a soul can die in friendship with God and in His grace, but...

Well, the answer to that question is the guilt of venial sin.

As we understand, as our faith teaches us, venial sin does not destroy God's grace in the soul, but it simply weakens it, and it makes us imperfect, right?

So when the Catechism refers to those dying in God's grace and friendship, but yet still being imperfectly purified, that's what the Church is referring to, the guilt of venial sin.

Then, the Catechism goes on to quote Pope St. Gregory the Great in the late 6th century.

I have to make sure I got my century right there.

In the late 6th century, Pope Gregory the Great says the following, ...as for certain lesser faults...

We must believe that before the final judgment, there is a purifying fire.

Okay?

Now, I want to emphasize the lesser faults.

What is Pope St. Gregory the Great referring to here?

Venial sin.

So notice how purgatory...

And when we're talking about purifying fire, we'll get to that.

And the nature of fire, and is it real, is it just metaphor, and all of this good stuff, we'll get to that later on in tonight's talk.

But I want to emphasize here the lesser faults.

This is what purgatory is dealing with.

The guilt of venial sin.

Because venial sin makes us imperfect, although...

We still remain in God's friendship and God's grace.

That is what the final purification is dealing with.

The guilt of venial sin.

Now, as I stated...

The final purification is also purifying the soul of any remaining temporal punishment due for sin.

That temporal punishment due for sin is taken care of in this final purification we call purgatory.

And the Catechism addresses this particular aspect.

of the final purification, in paragraph 1472 on through 1473. But I'm just going to share with you paragraph 1472. Here's what the Catechism states, quote, ...sin has a double consequence.

Grave sin, that is mortal sin, and what the church means is mortal sin meaning that grave serious offense against God that when committed with full knowledge and full consent, destroys God's friendship, destroys grace or charity in the soul, okay?

So, grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the eternal punishment of sin.

And obviously the church is referring to hell there, right?

So notice the first, eternal punishment.

On the other hand, it continues...

On the other hand, every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death in the state called purgatory.

So notice that when we sin, two-fold consequence.

There's the eternal consequence, eternal punishment, but every sin, whether it's mortal or venial, is going to cause some sort of unhealthy attachment to something of the created order.

Whether it be something external to us, like a created good or material possession, or even ourselves, right?

An unhealthy attachment to ourselves, a disordered self-love.

And that unhealthy attachment is what is being purified in the final purification.

That is, if we die with venial sin, that venial sin causing an unhealthy attachment to created goods, that unhealthy attachment must be purified, either in this life or in the next, in this state we call purification.

The Catechism goes on and states, ...this purification frees one from what is called the temporal punishment of sin.

These two punishments, what two punishments?

The eternal punishment and the temporal punishment.

These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, right?

The tyrant God...

The slave master, that's not how we view this idea of punishment.

But, it goes on to say, as following from the very nature of sin.

Close quote.

So the idea is that sin has consequences.

There is an eternal consequence of sin, for grave sin, for mortal sin.

But even for venial sins, there's a temporal consequence as well.

Why?

Because man has sinned, folks, right?

You see, when I sin against God, let's just say, for example, mortal sin.

When I sin against God with a grave sin, that merits eternal punishment.

Separation from God.

I cannot cross that chasm of separation from God.

Only God can repair that through His mercy, through His grace, through the merits of the cross of Christ, right?

So Jesus, in His infinite power, takes care of what I cannot.

The eternal consequence.

Wipes that away through repentance.

But there is a temporal consequence that remains...

for sin.

Why?

Because man has sinned.

I have sinned, and so therefore there is something I must do to repair or make up for sin.

This is where the idea of penance comes into play, right?

When you go to confession, bless me Father for I have sinned, and O Padre absolves you in the name of the Father and Son of the Holy Spirit, and he gives you those prayers to pray as your penance.

Why?

Because Man has sinned, and so there's a temporal consequence.

And when man performs these acts of love or charity or prayers, it's making up for that sin.

It's satisfying the temporal punishment due for sin.

It's purifying the unhealthy attachment to created goods, right?

So this is what the church is referring to by temporal punishment due for sin.

Although the guilt may be removed.

a temporal consequence still remains.

And we have to satisfy that temporal punishment.

We have to make up for that sin in this temporal punishment or this temporal consequence that we're talking about.

And that's what purgatory has to do with.

So purgatory, this final purification of the elect after death, removes the guilt of venial sin that remains on the soul at death who dies in friendship with Christ.

and or purifies the soul from unhealthy attachments to created goods, which is the temporal consequence for sin.

Does that make sense?

And I think the key phrase from the Catechism is when it states, these forms of punishment are not to be conceived as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without.

You bad boy, you, so God's going to punish you, right?

No, the Church is trying to reshape.

Now, are there some who think that?

Are there some who teach that?

Are there some who believe that?

Yes.

But what the church is trying to do is to get us to see that the punishment for sin doesn't come from without, it comes from the very nature of sin.

And so when we sin...

There's a consequence, eternal and temporal.

If it's eternal, only Christ can take care of that.

But we can take care of the temporal by the grace of God, through acts of charity, and as we're going to see, through suffering, etc. So this is what purgatory is dealing with.

Final purification of the guilt or the removal of venial sin, and also satisfying the temporal punishment due for sin.

Okay, catechetical point number three.

Catechetical point number three has to do with the subject of the purification.

In other words, who's in purgatory?

If you're in purgatory, can you go to hell?

Are you guaranteed heaven?

Who's the object of the purification?

Well, only the elect.

Only the elect.

What do I mean by the elect?

The saved ones, right?

Here's what the Catechism states.

Once again, going back to paragraph 1030, the Catechism states, ...all who die in God's grace and friendship...

Hey, if you die in God's grace and friendship, guess what?

You a saved one.

You're saved.

...but still imperfectly purified, or indeed assured of their eternal salvation.

Paragraph 1031, the church gives the name purgatory to the final purification of the elect.

So the souls in purgatory, my dear friends, have eternal security.

They are assured of their salvation.

They know without a doubt they're on their way to the beatific vision.

Now, there are two truths that we can sort of deduce from this.

Number one, purgatory does not affect a chance, folks.

Contrary to common belief.

Not only among our Protestant brothers and sisters, but among our Catholic brothers and sisters as well.

You know, many people...

misconceive this idea and think, well, you know, I don't have to quite live that holy in this life because I can slip into purgatory there and not get my little second chance, right?

Absolutely not!

Okay?

And I think this was a fundamental reason that caused this Protestant guy that I was dialoguing with to reject purgatory.

He wasn't rejecting purgatory.

He was rejecting a false idea of purgatory because he thought it was like this second chance theology, right?

No, folks, as the Catholic Church has always taught, as the Bible teaches, when you die, that's it.

Your eternity is sealed.

Your eternity will either be heaven or hell because you either die in friendship with Christ or you don't. If you don't die in friendship with Christ, well then you're eternally separated from Christ, and that state of existence we call hell.

But if you die in friendship with Christ, you're either going to be perfectly purified and go straight into the beatific vision, or you won't be perfectly purified.

And if you're not perfectly purified, well guess what?

There's this final purification.

before entering into the glory of God.

So it's not a second chance.

Second truth that we can deduce, the souls in purgatory are, as the Catechism stated, assured of their salvation, which is a cause for great peace and joy.

You know, there are many Christians today who go around teaching that, you know, we can be assured of our salvation.

Eternal security.

Do you know, brother, that you're saved, right?

1 John 5, verse 13, St. John said, you can know you're saved.

Well, he wasn't talking about an absolute certainty.

He was talking about a confident knowledge, but that's another topic for another time.

But folks...

In this life, we don't have an assurance of our salvation.

We don't know without a doubt that we're going to make it to the end and die in friendship with Christ.

But guess what?

In purgatory, you know.

That's when you can know you're going to heaven.

That's when you're going to have eternal security and be assured of your salvation.

So it's very important for us as Catholics to understand that, especially when talking to our Protestant family members and friends who often have a misconceived idea about this.

This is not second chance.

The souls in purgatory are saved.

They're the elect.

They're assured of salvation.

Their names are written in the book of life.

Amen?

Okay, so can the souls in purgatory eventually at one point in time go to hell?

No, they're assured of their salvation.

Moving on to catechetical point number four, which basically has to do with the weight of the teaching.

In other words, what is the status of this teaching on purgatory?

Is this simply theological opinion where it's up for debate about the existence and the reality of this final purification?

Or is this something of the level of dogma?

And part of our Catholic faith is what the theologians call De Fide, that is, it's of the faith.

Well, the answer is that it's de fide.

The teaching of purgatory is a dogma of our Catholic faith, and therefore has the weight of infallibility.

It's an infallible teaching of our Catholic faith.

The Catechism affirms this in paragraph 1031. When it states, the church formulated her doctrine of faith on purgatory, especially, that means not limited to, but especially at the councils of Florence, which was in 14, around the year 1439, and the council of Trent, which was a three year, I think it was three years, right Father?

1563 to 1565, or 62 to 65, I can't quite remember.

But it's within that general time frame.

Now what's interesting is that the Council of Florence was not the only time when the church spoke definitively on the existence and the reality of purgatory.

The catechism already referenced Pope St. Gregory the Great in the late 6th century when he spoke of the lesser faults needing to be purified before entering into heaven.

We also have a magisterial teaching from Pope Innocent IV in 1254. Then the Second Council of Lyon in 1274 gave a definitive teaching on the existence and the reality of purgatory.

Pope Benedict XII in 1336 would actually definitively speak on the existence and the reality of purgatory.

It was given a formal definition, solemnly defined, particularly at the Council of Florence, and then reaffirmed at the Council of Trent.

So I just want to share with you a text or a quote from the Council of Trent, just to sort of give you an idea or a taste for what Trent was saying.

...since the Catholic Church instructed by the Holy Spirit in conformity with the sacred writings...

So, that's scripture.

...and the ancient tradition of the Fathers...

Sacred tradition.

...in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecumenical synod, has taught that there is a purgatory.

So the Council of Trent is affirming that the reality of purgatory is taught by sacred writings, that is scripture, and it's also taught in our sacred tradition, witnessed by the early church fathers and also the councils, the ecumenical councils preceding Trent.

It goes on to state, the Holy Synod commands the bishops that they insist that that the sound doctrine of purgatory, which has been transmitted by the Holy Fathers and Holy Councils, be believed by the faithful of Christ, be maintained, taught, and everywhere preached.

So the Council of Trent is saying it's found in Scripture, it's in sacred tradition, and then there's a binding of all the Christian faithful to believe this mystery of faith.

It falls at the highest level of Catholic teaching, namely dogmatic.

It's a dogma.

It's de fide, and it's infallible.

Now, why do I emphasize that?

Because in my experience, I have encountered many who, for whatever reason, have a false notion that this teaching is merely theological opinion, and that it's not infallible, and that if you, as a Catholic, don't want to believe in it, you don't really have to.

And that's just a misconception.

For whatever reason those individuals have taught that, I don't know.

But I wanted to share with you what our Catholic faith teaches.

That this is a mystery of faith that requires faith in.

We must assent with divine faith.

Okay?

Alright.

Catechetical point number five.

Moving right along.

An interesting topic that many of you, I think, will like to hear.

Purgatory can be bypassed.

Did you know that?

Now why is this important?

That's before I give you the quote from the catechism.

Because there are many, right?

There are many who will say, everybody's going to purgatory.

You're going to purgatory and you're going to suffer.

There are many who teach that, whether you like it or not, right?

Well, actually, no, that's not what the church teaches.

We just stick with the church, right?

The church says it is possible to bypass it.

And here's what the catechism states in paragraph 1472. Conversion, which proceeds from a fervent charity, can attain, I repeat, can attain, that means it's possible, the complete purification of the sinner, in such a way that no punishment would remain.

Did you catch that?

So it's possible that at the moment of death, a soul could have achieved such a complete state of charity in the soul that none of that temporal punishment due to sin would remain.

They would be completely purified.

And if they die completely purified, well then guess what?

They can go straight into the beatific vision.

Now, Is that hard to come by?

Probably so.

Okay?

But it is possible.

And it's something to strive for.

Amen?

It's something to strive for.

Our church constantly exhorts us in this journey of faith to a life of sanctity, a life of holiness, works of charity, works of prayer, uniting our sufferings with the suffering of Christ.

And through all of these means, we can purify the soul.

and work toward, as St. Paul was saying in Philippians 2.12-13, I think it is, work out your salvation with fear and tribbling, working toward that goal of complete perfection in charity, so that if I die in that state, I can go straight into the beatific vision.

So, possibility?

Indeed.

Hard to achieve it?

Hey, what did St. Paul say?

I think it's in Philippians 4.13. St. Paul says, I can do all things, right?

In Christ who strengthens me.

So let's get to work, amen?

I'll preach it to myself.

Catechetical point number six.

Moving right along.

The nature of suffering.

And this is a major sticking point when we're talking about purgatory.

What is the nature of the suffering?

First of all, it's important to point out, purgatory does involve suffering.

That's something that the church teaches, okay?

But the question is, what is the nature of the suffering?

And interestingly enough, this is not where the church has defined anything.

The church teaches suffering is involved, but precisely the nature of it, there's been theological debate.

Now, theologians distinguish between two kinds of suffering, as you see there on your handout.

The poena damni versus the poena sensus.

Poena damni refers to the pain of loss, sensus refers to the pain of sense.

Now what you find in the teachings of the fathers, the teaching of the councils and the popes and their ordinary magisterium, across the board, the poena damni, that is the pain of loss, is the essence of the suffering of purgatory.

That's primary.

That's across the board.

What's up for debate and what's debated is the poena sensus, that is the pain of sense.

So let's just kind of reflect upon the pain of loss just very briefly.

The pain of loss refers to the soul realizing that it will eventually possess the beatific vision.

Because the soul cannot possess it yet.

That deprivation of the beatific vision is the primary cause of the suffering in this final purification.

The pain of loss.

And because the desire for the beatific vision...

is greater for the souls in purgatory, the suffering is more intense.

Because Aquinas would explain it in the way that the greater your desire for something that you do not possess yet, the greater the suffering for not having it yet, right?

And so many of the theologians reflected upon this, Aquinas included and many other theologians in the Middle Ages, etc.,

And even before that.

They reflect upon this pain of loss and say basically, you know, in this life, we desire heaven.

I desire heaven.

But you know what?

Unfortunately, there are many things of this earthly life that sort of distract us and take our attention away from the beatific vision.

And consequently, that desire lessens.

It's weakened.

That desire is not as great as it will be when I die in friendship with Christ in the state of final purification.

Well, guess what?

I'm free from earthly distractions.

I no longer have earthly distractions, and further, I'm free from all sin.

The soul might have the guilt of venial sin on the soul, but you're in a state far more closer to God than you are here on this earth.

And so consequently, what happens to the desire for the beatific vision?

It increases in the afterlife.

And because the desire for the beatific vision is greater, the suffering is going to be greater due to the deprivation of the beatific vision.

So it's this pain of loss that's the essence of the suffering for the souls in purgatory.

Many often reflect upon the pain also coming from the purification in the sense that the soul has to turn, basically, about the catechism said the soul has to be purified of the what unhealthy attachments to created goods many have reflected upon the pain of purgatory being caused by that movement you might say from going from the unhealthy attachment to being totally attached to God because the wheel has to be turned right the wheel has to be purified of the unhealthy attachment so that it can be totally for the Lord totally attached to God and And think about it just on a natural level in your life right now.

Has there ever been a time in your life where you've been really attached to something and God has called you in whatever form or fashion to detach from that and look more to Him?

Whether it be some form of addiction or whatever it may be, we're attached to something and God calls us to detach and turn to Him.

Is that an easy process?

Very often it's not.

It's quite difficult, right?

To detach.

from something, to turn away from something in this life and to be totally committed to the Lord.

I know I've experienced that in my life, right?

Having to detach from the music scene and the limelight and the vanity and all of that stuff and detach and turn my back to that in a sense to be totally focused on the Lord because that's where He was calling me to go.

There was suffering involved in that detachment from earthly goods.

Well, many have reflected upon the pain of purgatory being that detachment.

That detachment that we're undergoing in the final purification is a cause for suffering.

Now, the other pain that's referred to is the pain of sense.

It's an interesting debate.

Let me just say that the church has not defined it, and so it's up for grabs, and it's up for debate.

There is a common teaching among the scholastics, among the middle-aged theologians, and even within the early church fathers, and even among the popes in the ordinary magisterium, a common teaching that there is a pain of sense.

But the question is, how can a disembodied soul experience sensory pain, like from a material fire of some sort?

If it doesn't have a body to be burned, right, or to experience the material fire, how can the soul experience the or the pain of sense.

There are some interesting arguments that the theologians give on how a disembodied soul can still experience the pain of sense, but it's just a bit too deep for our reflection tonight, and to be frank with you, A bit too deep for this little canog in here, right?

But bottom line is that it's not definitive.

It's up for grabs, okay?

So the church has not defined if purgatory has a material fire and if you're going to suffer from the pain of sense.

Many have argued if you ain't got a body, how are you going to suffer the pain of sense?

We can leave it at that, alright?

But we know for sure that the suffering of purgatory is indeed the pain of loss.

But always remember, as intense as that suffering of purgatory will be, from the pain of loss, the deprivation of the beatific vision, knowing that you go in there, but you can't have it yet.

I don't know about you guys, but when I know I'm going on vacation in two weeks or something, and they ain't here yet, I'm suffering.

Can I get an amen to that one?

I think we can relate to that one.

Similarly, in purgatory, you know you've got the eternal vacation, the eternal rest of the beatific vision, but you just can't have it yet.

That's going to be a cause for suffering, okay?

Alrighty.

Now...

So that concludes our brief reflection on the nature of the suffering of...

Oh yeah, I didn't complete my thought.

Where I was going with that is, when we reflect upon the nature of the suffering of purgatory and how intense it may very well be, we must always temper that with the idea that there is peace, joy, and consolation even in the final purification.

Because those souls in the mystical body of Christ, which we traditionally refer to as what?

The church suffering, right?

Those souls are closer to Jesus Christ than you and me right now.

Because they have died in friendship with Christ, and they were guaranteed of their salvation.

Something that we do not have right now.

And therefore, something that can be a cause of joy and peace for them.

Okay?

So it's an important principle to remember.

Okay.

So let's move to catechetical point number seven.

And that is the duration of purgatory.

Is this something that's going to exist forever?

Or is it temporary?

Well, the purification itself is temporary.

So like the soul going through the purification, it's temporary.

It's eventually going to cease.

and that soul will enter into the beatific vision.

But the reality of purgatory itself, the Church teaches, will no longer exist after the general judgment, after the final judgment.

Here's what Pope Clement VI taught.

He reigned from 1342 to 1352. He states, ...also if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire for a time, notice, for a time, and that as soon as they are cleansed, even before the day of judgment, they may come to the true and eternal beatitude which consists in the vision of God face to face and in love.

So the implication here from Pope Clement VI's statement is that purgatory will cease to exist.

It will no longer be after the Day of Judgment.

So he's referring to purgation, this final purification, up to the Day of Judgment, after which there will no longer be the reality of purgatory.

St. Augustine writes the following, Let purification punishments be counted on only before that last and terrible judgment.

Only before that last and terrible judgment.

What's the implication?

After the general judgment.

After the final judgment, purgatory will no longer exist.

Okay, well the next question is, well, what about time in purgatory, right?

Do the souls experience time as we experience today?

Because, you know, didn't the church used to say if this particular indulgence was performed, you'd get 300 days off of purgatory, right?

So is purgatory time as we experience it today?

No. The existence of purgatory is not the time as we experience it in this life, nor is it the eternal now of God.

Because God alone, in essence, is eternal.

Without beginning, without end.

We have a beginning.

We don't have an end, but we have a beginning.

And so the theologians would refer to the abode of the afterlife, even for the souls in heaven, right now, the souls in purgatory, and even for the angels.

They refer to it as avaternity.

Just a little theological, technical nuance there.

But the idea is this.

The souls in purgatory do not experience physical time as we experience it today in this sort of 24-hour period succession of days.

However, there is still some movement, as we would say according to Aristotelian philosophy, of movement from potency to act.

In other words, potentiality to actuality.

For example, to be frank, going from not being purified to being purified, right?

Not being at the state of holiness necessary for the beatific vision.

So there's still some sort of movement there.

There's still some sort of movement from what we call potency to actuality.

So there's time in that sense.

But it's going to be something far different than the way we experience it in this life.

Physical time, that is, within the space-time continuum.

Right, Mike?

Where are you at, Mike?

Okay, and so there are no days in purgatory.

Now, at this particular point, it's important to make a note about the traditional usage of days in reference to purgatory and indulgences.

As many of you know, in the tradition, many times the church would prescribe a certain act of charity as an indulgence, right?

And the church would attach to that indulgence, say, let's say, 300 days off of your purgatory time, right?

Well, does that imply that the church understood purgatory to be a succession of days?

No. The way the church used the days in reference to purgatory was simply to draw a parallel between this particular act of charity that the church would ascribe to be an indulgence That would be equivalent to 300 days of penance in the ancient church, right?

So, for example, if somebody would commit adultery, and they would have three years of penitential action before being admitted back to the Eucharistic celebration, the table of the Lord, right?

Well, an indulgence could be said three years off of your purgatory time.

What did the church mean by that?

This indulgence, this act of charity, is equivalent to three years worth of penitential action in the ancient church.

So that's what the church meant by using the terminology of days off of purgatory.

Not implying our experience of purgatory being time in this life.

Just simply drawing the parallel with penitential action in the ancient church.

Now, did the church do away with with using this terminology of attaching days to indulgences, etc. Yes, the church did that in her wisdom because of all of the confusion that it was bringing about within people's minds.

Okay, finally, we come to catechetical point number nine, and that is the souls in purgatory can intercede for us.

Interestingly enough, this is a subject of debate among many theologians.

Some will argue that they can't pray for us because the suffering of purgatory is totally passive, receiving that purification, right?

And so they can't do anything for themselves, and then some will argue they can't do anything for other members of the mystical body of Christ.

However, the catechism seems to suggest that that the souls in purgatory can pray for us as members of the mystical body of Christ.

So I'll share that quote with you.

Paragraph 958, the Catechism states this.

Now this is within the context of the dead.

It's talking about those souls who die in friendship.

It's talking about praying for the dead.

We're going to get to that and the biblical evidence for that in the second part of tonight's talk.

Here's what the catechism says.

Our prayer for them, in reference to the souls in purgatory, our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Who's there?

Who's the there?

It's the souls in purgatory.

The Catechism is referring to the souls in purgatory and says that their intercession is more effective for us when we pray for them.

Now that's an interesting statement.

We could chase just a little rabbit here and think about this.

What would be the theological rationale behind that?

Well, guess what?

You know what the Bible teaches us?

The Bible teaches us that sin impedes the effectiveness of prayer.

The flip side of that, according to James 5.16, the prayer of a righteous man avails much, bears much fruit.

So think about it.

If the soul is in this final purification?

The guilt of venial sin is removed.

Sin is removed from the soul.

The soul is being purified.

Well then, that would make sense that the prayer of that person, for me, would become more effective as the guilt of venial sin is removed, right?

So, the catechism...

Because guess what?

They're members of the mystical body of Christ, my dear friends.

Church triumphant, the soul is in heaven.

Church suffering, the soul is in purgatory.

And as our tradition refers to it, the church militant, which is us here on earth.

Why militant?

Because we're still fighting sin.

We're still fighting those demons, right?

We're still fighting our own vices, you know, that arise from our own weakness.

These are nine catechetical points that I think are important for us to highlight when we're talking about predatory.

Are there more?

Indeed, there are more.

There's whole volumes, right, and dogmatic treatises on this topic.

I was reading some of them prior to tonight's talk, but it was so much, it was like overload, right, over-download of info.

So these are nine essential points that I wanted to highlight for you.

Now, before we take our break...

Let's go ahead and move into the second part of tonight's talk, and that is the biblical evidence for purgatory.

And as many of you know, you know why this is so important, right?

Because very often our Protestant brothers and sisters will ask us the common question, where is that in the Bible?

Many of you come from a Protestant tradition converting to Catholicism, so I'm sure many of you could affirm that Protestant question.

Where is that in the Bible?

So it's important for us to know, as Catholics, so that we can share it with our Protestant brothers and sisters.

But furthermore, you know, Pope Leo X in 1520, which is right after, I think, the Fifth Lateran Council, which ended in 1517. He issued a papal bull entitled Exsuge Domini, which is Arise, O Lord.

And in this papal bull, Pope Leo X declared he was actually refuting some of the errors of Martin Luther at the time, because the Reformation was just beginning, with Martin Luther's rejection of the various mysteries of faith.

And Pope Leo X, refuting the errors of Martin Luther, declared purgatory can be demonstrated in the Bible.

It was like an official teaching of the church because Martin Luther was denying it.

Martin Luther was saying, ah, there's nowhere in the Bible purgatory.

We don't find it anywhere other than Holy Writ.

No, it is attested to in Sacred Scripture.

So, what I'm going to share with you are some of the various examples from the Bible that the Church has often reflected upon.

You might even say certain sets of data from the Bible that leads us to conclude that purgatory is found in Holy Writ, is found in Sacred Scripture.

So, our first set of data is at least biblically reasonable.

Before we get to the explicit text that I would argue reveals the existence of purgatory, we can see that it's at least biblically reasonable.

And there are three steps of exegesis to this.

Step 1. A person can die with defilement on the soul and still remain in friendship with Christ.

Remember that teaching of the catechism?

Those who die in God's grace and friendship, those still imperfectly purify.

And we said the church was referring to what?

The guilt of venial sin.

In contrast to the guilt of mortal sin, which destroys grace in the soul, venial sin doesn't destroy grace, but it weakens grace.

It weakens the supernatural life in the soul.

But nevertheless, the soul is in friendship with Christ.

So the question is, is this found in the Bible?

Is it found in the Bible that you can be guilty of sin and still be in friendship with Jesus Christ?

Then the answer is yes.

Biblical passages I'll share with you.

The first of which is 1 John 5, verses 16-17, which is the classic text that we have always referred to in our Catholic tradition as a biblical support for the existence of the difference between venial and mortal sin.

Sin having different consequences, varying degrees of sin.

He writes, if anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin...

Now, the original Greek text there reads, a sin not unto death.

Some English translations will have it like that.

A sin not unto death.

This Revised Standard Version simply says, a sin that is not mortal.

What death is it talking about?

Physical death or supernatural death?

Supernatural death, the death of God's life and the soul.

So he says, if anyone sees his brother committing that which is not a mortal sin, that is a sin not unto death, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal, not unto death.

There is a sin, he goes on, which is mortal.

In other words, which is unto death.

I do not say that one is to pray for that.

All wrongdoing is sin.

But there is sin which is not mortal, not unto death.

So there is sin unto death.

We call it mortal sin.

Why?

Because it brings about the death, mortality of the supernatural life.

But there is a sin not unto death.

We call that venial sin, a light sin, that doesn't bring death to the supernatural life, although it may weaken it, or it does weaken it.

Not may, we know for sure.

So this is the first example of witnessing to a degree of sin that could defile the person nevertheless.

But, allow the person to still remain in friendship with God.

We also look to Jesus himself.

Many apologists and theologians have looked to Matthew 5, 19-20, where Jesus says, ...whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments...

And teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

But he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Notice how Jesus says, if someone relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.

So, first of all, there seems to be degrees of sin, right?

Least commandments, a least degree of sin.

And if you commit that least degree of sin, you're still what?

You're still in the kingdom.

You're at least in the kingdom, but nevertheless, you're still in the kingdom.

So many have looked to this saying of Jesus to emphasize the reality of how there's varying degrees of sin.

Some can keep us out of the kingdom.

St. Paul talks about those in 1 Corinthians 6, 9-10, right?

Galatians 5, Ephesians 5 gives us a list of those sins that keep us from the kingdom of God.

Jesus seems to imply that there are some sins that we can commit, but still be in the kingdom.

Are we advocating to go and commit all the sin you want, as long as it's in you?

Absolutely not, right?

That's not love, folks, right?

If you truly love the Lord, you will do what you can to even avoid venial sin.

Why?

Because the smallest offense...

against our beloved Lord, is still an offense.

And if we truly love Him, we don't want to offend Him in any way or fashion.

Will we at times?

Probably so.

I don't think anybody in here is a Blessed Virgin Mary, right?

Okay?

So probably so.

We will fall.

We will fall short of perfect love in this life.

But, thanks be to God, even if we do fall short of love with venial sin, we can still be in friendship with Christ.

And still receive the graces from prayers of other members of the mystical body of Christ to heal us, right?

And to get us closer to Jesus.

So that's the first step.

A person can die in defilement, with defilement on the soul, and still remain in friendship with Christ.

If the soul is guilty of only venial sin, and dies, that soul is still in God's friendship, but there's defilement on the soul, right?

Step two.

Defilement cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, folks.

St. John makes it plain and clear.

Very simple and short in Revelation 21-27. Nothing unclean shall enter it.

He's talking about the heavenly Jerusalem.

Heaven itself.

Nothing unclean shall enter it.

So think about that.

A soul can die in friendship with God, but still have defilement on the soul.

That is venial defilement, right?

The guilt of venial sin.

But nothing of defilement can enter into heaven.

So what's the conclusion?

That soul that's guaranteed of heaven because it died in friendship with Christ, but can't enter heaven because of the defilement, that defilement's going to have to get taken care of.

Do y'all see that?

Do you see that?

Is that clear?

Right?

So, the minute you acknowledge the possibility of dying in friendship with Christ, still with defilement on the soul of venial guilt, but nothing of defilement can enter into heaven, that defilement has to get taken care of.

Whether it's an instant or it's a process, guess what?

The church never defined that either.

Whether it's an instant purification where the soul is purified of the defilement, or if it's a process and a long duration, we simply do not know.

The common tradition, the common teaching is that it is a process, it is a duration, but the church has never defined that.

So, this I think is our first set of data from the Bible itself that begins us on the journey toward purgatory.

It's at least biblically reasonable.

According to the biblical revelation of dying with defilement on the soul but still being in friendship with God, and nothing of defilement can enter into heaven, a theological conclusion would be that defilement has to get taken care of.

before entering into the beatific vision either in this life or in the next so it's at least biblically reasonable now let's go ahead and take our break right now and when we come back from our break we're going to pick up with data set number two and that is the biblical examples that show the existence of a purifying state after death amen