奉父、子、圣灵的名，阿们。 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.
神，我们的父，我们以儿女的身份，奉你圣子耶稣的名，藉着圣灵的大能来到你面前。 God our Father, we just approach you as sons and daughters, in the name of your Son, Jesus, by the power of the Holy Spirit.
我们要感谢你赐予我们生命。 We just want to thank you for the gift of life.
我们感谢你，因着洗礼使信心的恩赐住在我们的灵魂中。 We thank you for the gift of faith that we have dwelling within our souls by virtue of our baptism.
这信心使我们能相信你和你向我们启示的一切，包括炼狱的教义。 That faith which allows us to believe in you and everything that you have revealed to us, including the dogma of purgatory.
我们祈求你真理的灵今晚引导我们，启迪我们的心智，坚固我们的意志。 We ask that your spirit of truth may guide and lead us tonight to enlighten our mind, to empower our will.
当我们默想这信仰的奥秘时。 as we meditate upon this mystery of faith.
所以我们祷告，我们在天上的父，愿人都尊你的名为圣。 And so we pray, Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.
愿你的国降临，愿你的旨意行在地上，如同行在天上。 Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
我们日用的饮食，今日赐给我们。免我们的债，如同我们免了人的债。 Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
不叫我们遇见试探，救我们脱离凶恶。 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
阿们。 Amen.
圣约瑟，为我们祈祷。 St. Joseph, pray for us.
奉父、子、圣灵的名。 In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.
阿们。 Amen.
好，让我们谈谈炼狱的教义。 Okay, so the doctrine of purgatory.
这是一个非常热门的话题，你知道的，这可不是在玩文字游戏。 This is a very hot topic when it comes especially to, you know, no pun intended.
这说得很好。 That was pretty good.
这是一个热门话题，特别是在公教徒和新教徒的对话中。 It's a hot topic, especially when it comes to Catholic and Protestant dialogues.
我永远不会忘记，那时我在路易斯安那州为一家便利 店连锁公司工作，负责这些商店的库存和现金审计。 I will never forget there was a time back in Louisiana when I was working for a convenience store, a corporation in the state of Louisiana, and I used to do inventory and cash auditing for these stores.
有一次我在柜台后面点钱，对吧？ And one time I was behind the counter counting the cash, right?
我听到一个人走到柜台前，放下他的商品，我记不清他具 体说了什么，但从他说的话我能判断出他是个基督徒。 And I heard this guy come up to the counter and say, His products there, and I forget exactly what he said, but he said something that allowed me to conclude he was a Christian.
他在见证他的基督信仰，而那时我是一个年轻热心的公教基督徒，你知道的，和每个人都 谈论耶稣。所以当他要走的时候，我跑出柜台，这并不是说我现在就不是那样了，好吗？ He was witnessing to his Christian faith, and at the time I was the young and zealous Catholic Christian, you know, talking to everybody about Jesus, and so when he ran, I ran around the counter, not to imply that I'm not that anymore, okay?
希望我没有改变。 Hopefully I'm not.
希望我仍然在为主而活。 Hopefully I'm still living for the Lord.
所以我跑出柜台，在停车场拦住了他。 So I ran around the counter and I stopped him in the parking lot.
你知道，我只是想和他握手，肯定他的基督信仰，感谢他为基督教和我们的主作见证。 You know, and I just wanted to shake his hand and just affirm him in his Christian faith and thank him for being a witness to Christianity and to our Lord.
于是我和他握手，他问道：「你在哪里敬拜？」 And so I shake his hand and he says, so where do you worship?
当时，我在克劳利的圣米迦勒公教会。 And at the time, it was at St. Michael's Catholic Church in Crowley.
当我一说出「公教」这个词，天啊，他马上就问起了关于炼狱的问题。 And the minute I said Catholic, boy, the first thing that came out of his mouth was a question about purgatory.
「炼狱，那是人的教义，它削弱了基督十字架的功效。」 Purgatory, that's a doctrine of men, and it takes away from the cross of Christ.
我们对话了大约五分钟，当然他要回到街对面去上班。 And we dialogued for about five minutes, and of course he was going back to work across the street.
他只是在工作中休息一下。 He was just taking a break from his job.
但我觉得很有趣。 But I found it interesting.
就在这短短的对话中，第一个话题不是「哦，谢谢你，你知道，我很高兴你也是基督徒」。 that just in this little bitty dialogue, the first topic that comes up, it wasn't, oh, well, thank you, you know, I'm glad you're a Christian too.
完全不是那样的性质，就只谈炼狱。 It was nothing of that nature, just purgatory.
显然这是我们新教弟兄姐妹们特别关注的问题。 So apparently that's a hot-button issue for our Protestant brothers and sisters.
所以这个讲座首先是针对那个特定的听众，我们的新教弟兄姐妹，其次 是为了我们这些公教徒，我们这里大多数确实是公教徒，让我们知道如 何解释炼狱的教义，特别是向我们的新教弟兄姐妹解释，但也是为了我 们自己，这样我们就能清楚地理解教会关于炼狱这个主题的教导。 So this talk is directed at first, that particular audience, our Protestant brothers and sisters, But secondly, for us who are Catholics here, the majority of us are indeed Catholics, for us to know how to explain the doctrine of purgatory, in particular to our Protestant brothers and sisters, but also simply for ourselves, so that we can get a clear understanding of what the Church teaches about this topic of purgatory.
好吗？ Okay?
所以，我把今晚的讲座分为四个主要部分。 So, I've divided tonight's talk into four major parts.
我们的第一部分将简单介绍教会关于炼狱现实性的教导。 Our first part will simply be the Church's teaching on the reality of Purgatory.
这将是今晚讲座的教理讲授部分。 That will be sort of our catechetical part of tonight's talk.
我们将从《公教会教理》和其他一些训导文献中，探讨关于炼狱主题的九个教理要点。 Looking at nine catechetical points about the topic of Purgatory, drawing from the Catechism of the Catholic Church and a few other magisterial texts.
第二，我们将查看炼狱的圣经依据，这将是今晚讲座的核心。 Secondly, we'll look at the biblical evidence for purgatory, and that'll be the crux of tonight's talk.
我们可能会在讲座的这一部分中间休息一下。 We will probably pause in the middle of that section of the talk to take our break this evening.
我们将简单看看圣经中的三组资料，这些资料为炼狱教义建立了圣经基础。 And so we'll just simply look at three sets of data that we have from the Bible that sort of establishes the biblical basis for the doctrine of purgatory.
在今晚讲座的第三部分，我们将回答新教弟兄姐妹经常提出的一些 常见反对意见，并对这些反对意见或常见问题提供解释或答案。 And in our third part for tonight's talk, we'll answer a few common objections that often arise from our Protestant brothers and sisters and offer an explanation or an answer to those objections or just common questions that are asked.
最后，我们将查看来自教父的证据。 And then finally, we'll look at the evidence from the early church fathers.
我们将看看早期基督教世纪的一些基督徒的引述，看看 他们对这个公教会对炼狱现实性的理解有什么看法。 And look at a few quotes from some of those Christians from the early centuries of Christianity and see what they had to say about this Catholic understanding of the reality of purgatory.
那么，让我们直接开始吧。 So, let's dive right in.
第一部分是教会关于炼狱现实性的教导。 With part number one, the church's teaching on the reality of purgatory.
如我所说，我想带领大家了解教理中关于炼狱的九个教理要点。 As I mentioned, there are nine catechetical points that I want us to walk through coming from the catechism about purgatory.
第一个教理要点与炼狱的定义有关。 The first catechetical point has to do with the definition of purgatory.
在第1031段，1030到1031段，我们基本 上发现《教理》将炼狱定义为选民死后的最后净化。 In paragraph 1031, 1030 to 1031, basically what we find is that the Catechism defines purgatory as the final purification of the elect after death.
选民死后的最后净化。 the final purification of the elect after death.
《教理》第1030段是这样说的：「所有在神的恩宠和友 谊中死去，但尚未完全净化的人，虽然确实已获得救恩。」 Here's what the Catechism states, paragraph 1030, quote, ...all who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified or indeed assured of their salvation.
「但在死后，他们要经过净化，以达到进入天堂喜乐所必需的圣洁。」 But after death, they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
然后在第1031段，《教理》说：「教会给选民这最后的净化取名为炼狱。」 Then in paragraph 1031, the Catechism states, ...the Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect.
好的，现在这个关于炼狱教义的简短概述内容丰富 ，我们将在今晚讲座的其他教理要点中逐一解释。 Okay, now that little brief synopsis of the doctrine of purgatory is loaded and it's packed and we're going to try to unpack it as we go throughout tonight's talk with the other catechetical points.
但我想先从定义开始。 But I just want to start with the definition.
选民死后的最后净化。 A final purification of the elect after death.
明白吗？ Okay?
这就是《教理》给我们的全部定义。 That's all that the catechism gives us.
现在让我们继续解释，看看这意味着什么。 Now let's proceed to unpack that and see what does that mean.
这就引出了第二个教理要点。 This leads us to catechetical point number two.
这与净化的对象有关。 which has to do with the object of the purification.
换句话说，在来世要净化什么？ In other words, what is purified in the afterlife?
你知道，我们说是灵魂，但在来世灵魂要被净化什么？ You know, well, we say the soul, but what is the soul being purified of in the afterlife?
基本上，炼狱的净化包含两个方面。 Well, basically, the purification of purgatory consists of two things.
它包括消除小罪的罪责和因罪而当受的暂时惩罚。 It consists of the removal of the guilt of venial sin and The temporal punishment that's due for sin.
因罪而当受的剩余暂时惩罚。 The remaining temporal punishment due for sin.
现在，这里又涉及到我们信仰奥秘的另外两个要素。 Now, once again, that's loaded right there because we're talking about two other elements of the mysteries of our faith.
因罪而当受的暂时惩罚。 Temporal punishment due for sin.
我们在谈论小罪和致死的罪。 We're talking about venial and mortal sin.
我们将在今晚的讲座中讨论这些内容。 We're going to get to those things as we go through tonight's talk.
但现在，我只想强调我们称为炼狱的死后最后净化所净化的 两件事：消除小罪的罪责和因罪而当受的剩余暂时惩罚。 But right now, I just want to emphasize that the two things that are purified in the final purification after death we call purgatory is the removal of the guilt of venial sin and or the remaining temporary punishment due for sin.
在第1031段中，《教理》关于小罪罪责的消除是这样说的。 In paragraph 1031, the Catechism states the following in reference to the guilt of venial sin being removed.
《教理》说所有在神的恩宠和友谊中死去，但尚未完全净化的人。 The Catechism states all who die in God's grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified.
在这里停一下。 Pause right there.
如果我们在神的恩宠和友谊中死去，这意味着我们得救了，对吗？ If we die in God's grace and friendship, that means we're saved, right?
我们确保能上天堂。 We're guaranteed heaven.
但《教理》提到灵魂如何能在与神的友谊和恩宠中死去，但是…… But the Catechism mentions how a soul can die in friendship with God and in His grace, but...
这个问题的答案就是小罪的罪责。 Well, the answer to that question is the guilt of venial sin.
正如我们理解的，正如我们的信仰教导我们的，小罪并不会 摧毁灵魂中神的恩宠，但会削弱它，使我们不完全，对吗？ As we understand, as our faith teaches us, venial sin does not destroy God's grace in the soul, but it simply weakens it, and it makes us imperfect, right?
所以当《教理》提到那些在神的恩宠和友谊中死去， 但仍未完全净化的人时，教会指的就是小罪的罪责。 So when the Catechism refers to those dying in God's grace and friendship, but yet still being imperfectly purified, that's what the Church is referring to, the guilt of venial sin.
然后，《教理》引用了六世纪末大贵格利教宗的话。 Then, the Catechism goes on to quote Pope St. Gregory the Great in the late 6th century.
我必须确保我说的世纪是对的。 I have to make sure I got my century right there.
在六世纪末，大贵格利教宗说：「至于某些较小的过错……」 In the late 6th century, Pope Gregory the Great says the following, ...as for certain lesser faults...
「我们必须相信在最后审判之前，有一种净化的火。」 We must believe that before the final judgment, there is a purifying fire.
明白吗？ Okay?
现在，我要强调这些较小的过错。 Now, I want to emphasize the lesser faults.
大贵格利教宗在这里指的是什么？ What is Pope St. Gregory the Great referring to here?
小罪。 Venial sin.
所以注意炼狱是如何…… So notice how purgatory...
当我们谈到净化之火时，我们会讨论到这点。 And when we're talking about purifying fire, we'll get to that.
关于火的本质，它是真实的还是只是比喻，以及所 有这些好东西，我们会在今晚的讲座后面讨论到。 And the nature of fire, and is it real, is it just metaphor, and all of this good stuff, we'll get to that later on in tonight's talk.
但我想在这里强调这些较小的过错。 But I want to emphasize here the lesser faults.
这就是炼狱所处理的。 This is what purgatory is dealing with.
小罪的罪责。 The guilt of venial sin.
因为小罪使我们不完全，虽然…… Because venial sin makes us imperfect, although...
我们仍然保持在神的友谊和恩宠中。 We still remain in God's friendship and God's grace.
这就是最后净化所处理的。 That is what the final purification is dealing with.
小罪的罪责。 The guilt of venial sin.
现在，如我所说…… Now, as I stated...
最后的净化也是在净化灵魂中因罪而当受的任何剩余暂时惩罚。 The final purification is also purifying the soul of any remaining temporal punishment due for sin.
这因罪而当受的暂时惩罚在我们称为炼狱的最后净化中得到处理。 That temporal punishment due for sin is taken care of in this final purification we call purgatory.
《教理》讨论了这个特定方面。 And the Catechism addresses this particular aspect.
关于最后净化，在第1472到1473段。但我只和你们分 享第1472段。《教理》是这样说的：「罪有双重后果。」 of the final purification, in paragraph 1472 on through 1473. But I'm just going to share with you paragraph 1472. Here's what the Catechism states, quote, ...sin has a double consequence.
大罪，就是致死的罪，教会所说的致死的罪是指那种严重冒犯神的罪，当人在完全知情和完 全同意的情况下犯下这种罪时，就会破坏与神的友谊，破坏灵魂中的恩宠或爱德，明白吗？ Grave sin, that is mortal sin, and what the church means is mortal sin meaning that grave serious offense against God that when committed with full knowledge and full consent, destroys God's friendship, destroys grace or charity in the soul, okay?
所以，大罪使我们失去与神的共融，因此使我们无法获得永生，这种剥夺被称为罪的永罚。 So, grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the eternal punishment of sin.
显然教会在这里指的是地狱，对吧？ And obviously the church is referring to hell there, right?
所以注意第一个，永罚。 So notice the first, eternal punishment.
另一方面，它继续说…… On the other hand, it continues...
另一方面，每一个罪，即使是小罪，都会带来对受造物的不健康依 恋，这种依恋必须在今世或死后在称为炼狱的状态中得到净化。 On the other hand, every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth or after death in the state called purgatory.
所以注意当我们犯罪时，有两重后果。 So notice that when we sin, two-fold consequence.
有永恒的后果，永罚，但每一个罪，无论是致死的罪 还是小罪，都会导致对某种受造秩序的不健康依恋。 There's the eternal consequence, eternal punishment, but every sin, whether it's mortal or venial, is going to cause some sort of unhealthy attachment to something of the created order.
无论是外在的事物，比如受造的善或物质财产，还是我们自己，对吧？ Whether it be something external to us, like a created good or material possession, or even ourselves, right?
对我们自己的不健康依恋，一种失序的自爱。 An unhealthy attachment to ourselves, a disordered self-love.
这种不健康的依恋就是在最后净化中被净化的。 And that unhealthy attachment is what is being purified in the final purification.
也就是说，如果我们带着小罪死去，这小罪导致对受造物的不健康依恋，这 种不健康的依恋必须在今世或来世，在我们称为净化的状态中得到净化。 That is, if we die with venial sin, that venial sin causing an unhealthy attachment to created goods, that unhealthy attachment must be purified, either in this life or in the next, in this state we call purification.
《教理》接着说：「这种净化使人摆脱所谓的罪的暂罚。」 The Catechism goes on and states, ...this purification frees one from what is called the temporal punishment of sin.
这两种惩罚，是哪两种惩罚？ These two punishments, what two punishments?
永罚和暂罚。 The eternal punishment and the temporal punishment.
这两种惩罚不能被理解为神从外部施加的某种报复，对吧？ These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, right?
暴君般的神…… The tyrant God...
奴隶主，这不是我们理解惩罚的方式。 The slave master, that's not how we view this idea of punishment.
但是，接着说，这是源于罪本身的本质。 But, it goes on to say, as following from the very nature of sin.
引文结束。 Close quote.
所以这个概念是罪有其后果。 So the idea is that sin has consequences.
对于大罪，对于致死的罪，有永恒的后果。 There is an eternal consequence of sin, for grave sin, for mortal sin.
但即使是小罪，也有暂时的后果。 But even for venial sins, there's a temporal consequence as well.
为什么？ Why?
因为人犯了罪，各位，对吧？ Because man has sinned, folks, right?
你看，当我得罪神时，比如说，致死的罪。 You see, when I sin against God, let's just say, for example, mortal sin.
当我用大罪得罪神时，这就应得永罚。 When I sin against God with a grave sin, that merits eternal punishment.
与神隔绝。 Separation from God.
我无法跨越这与神隔绝的鸿沟。 I cannot cross that chasm of separation from God.
只有神能通过他的怜悯，通过他的恩典，通过基督十字架的功劳来修复这个，对吧？ Only God can repair that through His mercy, through His grace, through the merits of the cross of Christ, right?
所以耶稣以他无限的能力，处理了我无法处理的事。 So Jesus, in His infinite power, takes care of what I cannot.
永恒的后果。 The eternal consequence.
通过悔改将其抹去。 Wipes that away through repentance.
但仍然存在暂时的后果…… But there is a temporal consequence that remains...
因为罪。 for sin.
为什么？ Why?
因为人犯了罪。 Because man has sinned.
我犯了罪，所以我必须做些什么来修补或弥补罪过。 I have sinned, and so therefore there is something I must do to repair or make up for sin.
这就是补赎的概念发挥作用的地方，对吧？ This is where the idea of penance comes into play, right?
当你去告解时，说「神父，请降福，我犯了罪」，神父因父 及子及圣灵之名赦免你的罪，并给你一些祷文作为补赎。 When you go to confession, bless me Father for I have sinned, and O Padre absolves you in the name of the Father and Son of the Holy Spirit, and he gives you those prayers to pray as your penance.
为什么？ Why?
因为人犯了罪，所以有暂时的后果。 Because Man has sinned, and so there's a temporal consequence.
当人做这些爱德的行为或祈祷时，就是在弥补那罪过。 And when man performs these acts of love or charity or prayers, it's making up for that sin.
这是在偿还因罪而当受的暂罚。 It's satisfying the temporal punishment due for sin.
这是在净化对受造物的不健康依恋，对吧？ It's purifying the unhealthy attachment to created goods, right?
所以这就是教会所说的因罪而当受的暂罚。 So this is what the church is referring to by temporal punishment due for sin.
虽然罪责可能被消除。 Although the guilt may be removed.
暂时的后果仍然存在。 a temporal consequence still remains.
我们必须偿还那暂罚。 And we have to satisfy that temporal punishment.
我们必须在这个我们所说的暂罚或暂时后果中弥补那罪过。 We have to make up for that sin in this temporal punishment or this temporal consequence that we're talking about.
这就是炼狱所要处理的。 And that's what purgatory has to do with.
所以炼狱，这选民死后的最后净化，消除了那些在 与基督的友谊中死去的灵魂所残留的小罪罪责。 So purgatory, this final purification of the elect after death, removes the guilt of venial sin that remains on the soul at death who dies in friendship with Christ.
并且或者净化灵魂摆脱对受造物的不健康依恋，这就是罪的暂时后果。 and or purifies the soul from unhealthy attachments to created goods, which is the temporal consequence for sin.
这说得通吗？ Does that make sense?
我认为《教理》中的关键句子是说，这些惩罚形式不应被理解为神从外部施加的某种报复。 And I think the key phrase from the Catechism is when it states, these forms of punishment are not to be conceived as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without.
你这个坏孩子，所以神要惩罚你，对吧？ You bad boy, you, so God's going to punish you, right?
不，教会正试图重塑这种理解。 No, the Church is trying to reshape.
现在，是否有人是这样想的？ Now, are there some who think that?
是否有人是这样教导的？ Are there some who teach that?
是否有人是这样相信的？ Are there some who believe that?
是的。 Yes.
但教会试图让我们看到，罪的惩罚不是来自外部，而是来自罪本身的本质。 But what the church is trying to do is to get us to see that the punishment for sin doesn't come from without, it comes from the very nature of sin.
所以当我们犯罪时…… And so when we sin...
有后果，永恒的和暂时的。 There's a consequence, eternal and temporal.
如果是永恒的，只有基督能处理。 If it's eternal, only Christ can take care of that.
但通过神的恩典，我们可以通过爱德的行为，以及我们将要看 到的，通过苦难等来处理暂时的后果。这就是炼狱所处理的。 But we can take care of the temporal by the grace of God, through acts of charity, and as we're going to see, through suffering, etc. So this is what purgatory is dealing with.
最后净化罪责或消除小罪，并且偿还因罪而当受的暂罚。 Final purification of the guilt or the removal of venial sin, and also satisfying the temporal punishment due for sin.
好，第三个教理要点。 Okay, catechetical point number three.
第三个教理要点与净化的主体有关。 Catechetical point number three has to do with the subject of the purification.
换句话说，谁在炼狱里？ In other words, who's in purgatory?
如果你在炼狱里，你会下地狱吗？ If you're in purgatory, can you go to hell?
你确保能上天堂吗？ Are you guaranteed heaven?
谁是净化的对象？ Who's the object of the purification?
只有选民。 Well, only the elect.
只有选民。 Only the elect.
我说的选民是什么意思？ What do I mean by the elect?
得救的人，对吧？ The saved ones, right?
这是《教理》所说的。 Here's what the Catechism states.
再次回到第1030段，《教理》说：「所有在神的恩宠和友谊中死去的人……」 Once again, going back to paragraph 1030, the Catechism states, ...all who die in God's grace and friendship...
嘿，如果你在神的恩宠和友谊中死去，你猜怎么着？ Hey, if you die in God's grace and friendship, guess what?
你是得救的人。 You a saved one.
你得救了。 You're saved.
「……但尚未完全净化，虽然确实已获得永恒的救恩。」 ...but still imperfectly purified, or indeed assured of their eternal salvation.
第1031段，教会给选民这最后的净化取名为炼狱。 Paragraph 1031, the church gives the name purgatory to the final purification of the elect.
所以，我亲爱的朋友们，在炼狱中的灵魂有永恒的保障。 So the souls in purgatory, my dear friends, have eternal security.
他们确信自己的救恩。 They are assured of their salvation.
他们毫无疑问地知道他们正在走向真福直观。 They know without a doubt they're on their way to the beatific vision.
现在，我们可以从中推导出两个真理。 Now, there are two truths that we can sort of deduce from this.
第一，各位，炼狱不是一个机会。 Number one, purgatory does not affect a chance, folks.
与普遍的看法相反。 Contrary to common belief.
不仅在我们的新教弟兄姐妹中，在我们的公教弟兄姐妹中也是如此。 Not only among our Protestant brothers and sisters, but among our Catholic brothers and sisters as well.
你知道，很多人…… You know, many people...
误解这个概念，认为，你知道，我在今生不需要那么 圣洁，因为我可以溜进炼狱得到第二次机会，对吧？ misconceive this idea and think, well, you know, I don't have to quite live that holy in this life because I can slip into purgatory there and not get my little second chance, right?
绝对不是！ Absolutely not!
明白吗？ Okay?
我认为这就是导致我对话的那位新教徒拒绝炼狱的根本原因。 And I think this was a fundamental reason that caused this Protestant guy that I was dialoguing with to reject purgatory.
他其实不是在拒绝炼狱。 He wasn't rejecting purgatory.
他是在拒绝一个错误的炼狱概念，因为他认为这像是一个第二次机会的神学，对吧？ He was rejecting a false idea of purgatory because he thought it was like this second chance theology, right?
不，各位，正如公教会一直教导的，正如圣经教导的，当你死时，就是这样了。 No, folks, as the Catholic Church has always taught, as the Bible teaches, when you die, that's it.
你的永恒就此确定。 Your eternity is sealed.
你的永恒不是天堂就是地狱，因为你要么在与基督的友谊中死去，要么不是。如果你不 是在与基督的友谊中死去，那么你就永远与基督隔绝，我们称这种存在状态为地狱。 Your eternity will either be heaven or hell because you either die in friendship with Christ or you don't. If you don't die in friendship with Christ, well then you're eternally separated from Christ, and that state of existence we call hell.
但如果你在与基督的友谊中死去，你要么已经完全 净化并直接进入真福直观，要么尚未完全净化。 But if you die in friendship with Christ, you're either going to be perfectly purified and go straight into the beatific vision, or you won't be perfectly purified.
如果你还没有完全净化，你猜怎么着？ And if you're not perfectly purified, well guess what?
还有这最后的净化。 There's this final purification.
在进入神的荣耀之前。 before entering into the glory of God.
所以这不是第二次机会。 So it's not a second chance.
我们可以推导出的第二个真理是，如《教理》所说，在炼狱 中的灵魂确信他们的救恩，这是极大平安和喜乐的原因。 Second truth that we can deduce, the souls in purgatory are, as the Catechism stated, assured of their salvation, which is a cause for great peace and joy.
你知道，今天有许多基督徒到处教导说，你知道，我们可以确信我们的救恩。 You know, there are many Christians today who go around teaching that, you know, we can be assured of our salvation.
永恒的保障。 Eternal security.
弟兄，你知道你得救了，对吧？ Do you know, brother, that you're saved, right?
约翰一书5章13节，圣约翰说，你可以知道你得救了。 1 John 5, verse 13, St. John said, you can know you're saved.
嗯，他说的不是绝对的确定性。 Well, he wasn't talking about an absolute certainty.
他说的是一种有把握的认知，但这是另一个时候要讨论的话题。 He was talking about a confident knowledge, but that's another topic for another time.
但是各位…… But folks...
在今生，我们没有救恩的确据。 In this life, we don't have an assurance of our salvation.
我们不能毫无疑问地知道我们会坚持到最后并在与基督的友谊中死去。 We don't know without a doubt that we're going to make it to the end and die in friendship with Christ.
但你猜怎么着？ But guess what?
在炼狱中，你就知道了。 In purgatory, you know.
那时你就能知道你要上天堂了。 That's when you can know you're going to heaven.
那时你就会有永恒的保障并确信你的救恩。 That's when you're going to have eternal security and be assured of your salvation.
所以对我们公教徒来说，理解这一点很重要，特别 是在与经常对此有误解的新教家人和朋友交谈时。 So it's very important for us as Catholics to understand that, especially when talking to our Protestant family members and friends who often have a misconceived idea about this.
这不是第二次机会。 This is not second chance.
在炼狱中的灵魂是得救的。 The souls in purgatory are saved.
他们是选民。 They're the elect.
他们确信得救。 They're assured of salvation.
他们的名字写在生命册上。 Their names are written in the book of life.
阿们？ Amen?
好，那么在炼狱中的灵魂最终会在某个时候下地狱吗？ Okay, so can the souls in purgatory eventually at one point in time go to hell?
不会，他们确信得救。 No, they're assured of their salvation.
进入第四个教理要点，这基本上与教导的分量有关。 Moving on to catechetical point number four, which basically has to do with the weight of the teaching.
换句话说，这个关于炼狱的教导的地位是什么？ In other words, what is the status of this teaching on purgatory?
这仅仅是一个神学观点，关于这最后净化的存在和现实可以争论吗？ Is this simply theological opinion where it's up for debate about the existence and the reality of this final purification?
还是说这是教条层面的事情？ Or is this something of the level of dogma?
而且我们公教信仰的一部分就是神学家所说的「信德」，也就是说，这是信仰的一部分。 And part of our Catholic faith is what the theologians call De Fide, that is, it's of the faith.
答案是，这确实是信德。 Well, the answer is that it's de fide.
炼狱的教导是我们公教信仰的一个教条，因此具有无误性的分量。 The teaching of purgatory is a dogma of our Catholic faith, and therefore has the weight of infallibility.
这是我们公教信仰的一个无误教导。 It's an infallible teaching of our Catholic faith.
《教理》在第1031段确认了这一点。当它说，教会制定了她关于炼狱的 信仰教义，特别是（这意味着不限于，但特别是）在佛罗伦萨会议，也就是 1439年左右，和特伦特会议，那是三年，我想是三年，对吧神父？ The Catechism affirms this in paragraph 1031. When it states, the church formulated her doctrine of faith on purgatory, especially, that means not limited to, but especially at the councils of Florence, which was in 14, around the year 1439, and the council of Trent, which was a three year, I think it was three years, right Father?
1563年到1565年，或者62年到65年，我记不太清了。 1563 to 1565, or 62 to 65, I can't quite remember.
但就在那个大致的时间范围内。 But it's within that general time frame.
现在有趣的是，佛罗伦萨会议并不是教会唯一一次明确谈论炼狱的存在和现实的时候。 Now what's interesting is that the Council of Florence was not the only time when the church spoke definitively on the existence and the reality of purgatory.
《教理》已经提到了六世纪末的教宗圣大额我略， 当时他谈到较小的过错在进入天堂前需要被净化。 The catechism already referenced Pope St. Gregory the Great in the late 6th century when he spoke of the lesser faults needing to be purified before entering into heaven.
我们还有1254年英诺森四世教宗的训导教导。然后1274 年的第二次里昂会议对炼狱的存在和现实给出了明确的教导。 We also have a magisterial teaching from Pope Innocent IV in 1254. Then the Second Council of Lyon in 1274 gave a definitive teaching on the existence and the reality of purgatory.
1336年本笃十二世教宗实际上也明确地谈到了炼狱的存在和现实。 Pope Benedict XII in 1336 would actually definitively speak on the existence and the reality of purgatory.
它在佛罗伦萨会议上得到了正式的定义，庄严地确定下来，然后在特伦特会议上得到重申。 It was given a formal definition, solemnly defined, particularly at the Council of Florence, and then reaffirmed at the Council of Trent.
所以我想和你们分享特伦特会议的一段文本或引文，让你们大致了解特伦特会议说了什么。 So I just want to share with you a text or a quote from the Council of Trent, just to sort of give you an idea or a taste for what Trent was saying.
「……因为公教会在圣灵的指导下，根据圣经……」 ...since the Catholic Church instructed by the Holy Spirit in conformity with the sacred writings...
所以，那是圣经。 So, that's scripture.
「……和教父们的古老传统……」 ...and the ancient tradition of the Fathers...
圣传。 Sacred tradition.
「……在神圣的会议中，以及最近在这次大公会议中，教导说有炼狱。」 ...in sacred councils, and very recently in this ecumenical synod, has taught that there is a purgatory.
所以特伦特会议确认炼狱的现实是由圣经所教导的，也就是圣经，而且也 在我们的圣传中教导，由早期教父和特伦特会议之前的大公会议见证。 So the Council of Trent is affirming that the reality of purgatory is taught by sacred writings, that is scripture, and it's also taught in our sacred tradition, witnessed by the early church fathers and also the councils, the ecumenical councils preceding Trent.
接着说，神圣会议命令主教们坚持要求基督的信徒相信、维护、教导 并到处宣讲这个由圣教父和神圣会议所传递的关于炼狱的正确教义。 It goes on to state, the Holy Synod commands the bishops that they insist that that the sound doctrine of purgatory, which has been transmitted by the Holy Fathers and Holy Councils, be believed by the faithful of Christ, be maintained, taught, and everywhere preached.
所以特伦特会议说这在圣经中可以找到，在圣传中也 有，而且所有基督信徒都有义务相信这个信仰奥秘。 So the Council of Trent is saying it's found in Scripture, it's in sacred tradition, and then there's a binding of all the Christian faithful to believe this mystery of faith.
它属于公教教导的最高层次，即教条性的。 It falls at the highest level of Catholic teaching, namely dogmatic.
这是一个教条。 It's a dogma.
这是信德，而且是无误的。 It's de fide, and it's infallible.
现在，为什么我要强调这一点？ Now, why do I emphasize that?
因为根据我的经验，我遇到过许多人，不管出于什么原因，都错误地认为这个教导仅仅 是神学观点，不是无误的，而且如果你作为一个公教徒不想相信它，你其实不必相信。 Because in my experience, I have encountered many who, for whatever reason, have a false notion that this teaching is merely theological opinion, and that it's not infallible, and that if you, as a Catholic, don't want to believe in it, you don't really have to.
这只是一个误解。 And that's just a misconception.
不知道那些人出于什么原因这样教导。 For whatever reason those individuals have taught that, I don't know.
但我想和你们分享我们公教信仰的教导。 But I wanted to share with you what our Catholic faith teaches.
这是一个需要信仰的信仰奥秘。 That this is a mystery of faith that requires faith in.
我们必须以信德来认同。 We must assent with divine faith.
明白吗？ Okay?
好的。 Alright.
第五个教理要点。 Catechetical point number five.
继续往下说。 Moving right along.
一个我想你们很多人会喜欢听的有趣话题。 An interesting topic that many of you, I think, will like to hear.
炼狱是可以绕过的。 Purgatory can be bypassed.
你知道吗？ Did you know that?
现在为什么这很重要？ Now why is this important?
这是在我给你们引用《教理》之前。 That's before I give you the quote from the catechism.
因为有很多人，对吧？ Because there are many, right?
有很多人会说，每个人都要去炼狱。 There are many who will say, everybody's going to purgatory.
你要去炼狱，你要受苦。 You're going to purgatory and you're going to suffer.
有很多人这样教导，不管你喜欢与否，对吧？ There are many who teach that, whether you like it or not, right?
但实际上，不，这不是教会的教导。 Well, actually, no, that's not what the church teaches.
我们就遵循教会的教导，对吧？ We just stick with the church, right?
教会说是可能绕过它的。 The church says it is possible to bypass it.
这是《教理》第1472段所说的。出于热切爱德的皈依能够达到，我重复，能 够达到，这意味着是可能的，罪人的完全净化，以至于不再有任何惩罚残留。 And here's what the catechism states in paragraph 1472. Conversion, which proceeds from a fervent charity, can attain, I repeat, can attain, that means it's possible, the complete purification of the sinner, in such a way that no punishment would remain.
你们听明白了吗？ Did you catch that?
所以在死亡时刻，一个灵魂有可能达到如此完全的爱 德状态，以至于不再有任何因罪而当受的暂罚残留。 So it's possible that at the moment of death, a soul could have achieved such a complete state of charity in the soul that none of that temporal punishment due to sin would remain.
他们将完全被净化。 They would be completely purified.
如果他们在完全净化的状态下死去，那么你猜怎么着？ And if they die completely purified, well then guess what?
他们可以直接进入真福直观。 They can go straight into the beatific vision.
现在，这很难达到吗？ Now, Is that hard to come by?
可能是的。 Probably so.
明白吗？ Okay?
但这是可能的。 But it is possible.
而且这是值得努力追求的。 And it's something to strive for.
阿们？ Amen?
这是值得努力追求的。 It's something to strive for.
我们的教会在这信仰旅程中不断劝勉我们过圣洁的生活，神圣的生活 ，行爱德的工作，祈祷的工作，将我们的苦难与基督的苦难结合。 Our church constantly exhorts us in this journey of faith to a life of sanctity, a life of holiness, works of charity, works of prayer, uniting our sufferings with the suffering of Christ.
通过所有这些方式，我们可以净化灵魂。 And through all of these means, we can purify the soul.
并且努力，就像圣保罗在腓立比书2:12-13中所说的，我想是 那里，要恐惧战兢地作成你们得救的工夫，朝着在爱德中完全的目标 努力，这样如果我在那种状态下死去，我就可以直接进入真福直观。 and work toward, as St. Paul was saying in Philippians 2.12-13, I think it is, work out your salvation with fear and tribbling, working toward that goal of complete perfection in charity, so that if I die in that state, I can go straight into the beatific vision.
所以，有可能吗？ So, possibility?
确实。 Indeed.
很难达到吗？ Hard to achieve it?
嘿，圣保罗是怎么说的？ Hey, what did St. Paul say?
我想是在腓立比书4:13。圣保罗说，我靠着那加给我力量的，凡事都能做，对吧？ I think it's in Philippians 4.13. St. Paul says, I can do all things, right?
靠着那加给我力量的基督。 In Christ who strengthens me.
所以让我们开始努力吧，阿们？ So let's get to work, amen?
我要对自己宣讲这个。 I'll preach it to myself.
第六个教理要点。 Catechetical point number six.
继续往下说。 Moving right along.
苦难的本质。 The nature of suffering.
这是我们谈论炼狱时的一个主要难点。 And this is a major sticking point when we're talking about purgatory.
苦难的本质是什么？ What is the nature of the suffering?
首先，重要的是要指出，炼狱确实涉及苦难。 First of all, it's important to point out, purgatory does involve suffering.
这是教会教导的，明白吗？ That's something that the church teaches, okay?
但问题是，苦难的本质是什么？ But the question is, what is the nature of the suffering?
有趣的是，这不是教会已经定义的内容。 And interestingly enough, this is not where the church has defined anything.
教会教导说有苦难，但关于其确切本质，一直存在神学争论。 The church teaches suffering is involved, but precisely the nature of it, there's been theological debate.
现在，神学家们区分两种苦难，就像你们在讲义上看到的。 Now, theologians distinguish between two kinds of suffering, as you see there on your handout.
失落之苦与感官之苦的区别。 The poena damni versus the poena sensus.
失落之苦指的是失落的痛苦，感官之苦指的是感官的痛苦。 Poena damni refers to the pain of loss, sensus refers to the pain of sense.
现在你在教父的教导中，在会议和教宗的教导及其常规训导中都会发 现，普遍认为失落之苦，也就是失落的痛苦，是炼狱苦难的本质。 Now what you find in the teachings of the fathers, the teaching of the councils and the popes and their ordinary magisterium, across the board, the poena damni, that is the pain of loss, is the essence of the suffering of purgatory.
这是主要的。 That's primary.
这是普遍认同的。 That's across the board.
有争议和讨论的是感官之苦。 What's up for debate and what's debated is the poena sensus, that is the pain of sense.
所以让我们简单地思考一下失落之苦。 So let's just kind of reflect upon the pain of loss just very briefly.
失落之苦指的是灵魂意识到它最终将拥有真福直观。 The pain of loss refers to the soul realizing that it will eventually possess the beatific vision.
因为灵魂还不能拥有它。 Because the soul cannot possess it yet.
这种对真福直观的剥夺是最后净化中苦难的主要原因。 That deprivation of the beatific vision is the primary cause of the suffering in this final purification.
失落之苦。 The pain of loss.
而且因为对真福直观的渴望…… And because the desire for the beatific vision...
在炼狱中的灵魂更强烈，所以苦难更剧烈。 is greater for the souls in purgatory, the suffering is more intense.
因为阿奎那会这样解释，你对还未拥有的东西的渴望越 强烈，因为还未拥有它而产生的苦难就越大，对吧？ Because Aquinas would explain it in the way that the greater your desire for something that you do not possess yet, the greater the suffering for not having it yet, right?
所以很多神学家都对此进行了思考，包括阿奎那和中世纪的许多其他神学家等等， And so many of the theologians reflected upon this, Aquinas included and many other theologians in the Middle Ages, etc.,
甚至更早之前。 And even before that.
他们思考这种失落之苦，基本上是说，你知道，在今生，我们渴望天堂。 They reflect upon this pain of loss and say basically, you know, in this life, we desire heaven.
我渴望天堂。 I desire heaven.
但你知道吗？ But you know what?
不幸的是，今世生活中有许多事物会分散我们的 注意力，使我们的注意力从真福直观上转移。 Unfortunately, there are many things of this earthly life that sort of distract us and take our attention away from the beatific vision.
因此，那种渴望减弱了。 And consequently, that desire lessens.
它被削弱了。 It's weakened.
这种渴望不如当我在与基督的友谊中死去，处于最后净化状态时那么强烈。 That desire is not as great as it will be when I die in friendship with Christ in the state of final purification.
那么，你猜怎么着？ Well, guess what?
我摆脱了尘世的干扰。 I'm free from earthly distractions.
我不再有尘世的干扰，而且，我摆脱了所有罪。 I no longer have earthly distractions, and further, I'm free from all sin.
灵魂可能还带着小罪的罪责，但你比在世上时更接近神。 The soul might have the guilt of venial sin on the soul, but you're in a state far more closer to God than you are here on this earth.
因此，对真福直观的渴望会怎样？ And so consequently, what happens to the desire for the beatific vision?
它在来世增强了。 It increases in the afterlife.
而且因为对真福直观的渴望更强烈，由于无法获得真福直观而产生的苦难也会更大。 And because the desire for the beatific vision is greater, the suffering is going to be greater due to the deprivation of the beatific vision.
所以这种失落之苦是炼狱中灵魂受苦的本质。 So it's this pain of loss that's the essence of the suffering for the souls in purgatory.
许多人经常思考这种痛苦也来自净化，就是说灵魂必须转向，基本上，《教理》说灵魂必 须净化对受造物的不健康依恋，许多人认为炼狱的痛苦是由这种转变造成的，你可以说是 从不健康的依恋转向完全依附于神，因为这个轮子必须转向正确的方向，必须净化不健康 的依恋，这样才能完全属于主，完全依附于神。现在就从你生活中的自然层面来想想。 Many often reflect upon the pain also coming from the purification in the sense that the soul has to turn, basically, about the catechism said the soul has to be purified of the what unhealthy attachments to created goods many have reflected upon the pain of purgatory being caused by that movement you might say from going from the unhealthy attachment to being totally attached to God because the wheel has to be turned right the wheel has to be purified of the unhealthy attachment so that it can be totally for the Lord totally attached to God and And think about it just on a natural level in your life right now.
在你的生命中，是否曾经有过这样的时刻，你真的依恋某些 事物，而神以某种方式呼召你放下这些，更多地仰望他？ Has there ever been a time in your life where you've been really attached to something and God has called you in whatever form or fashion to detach from that and look more to Him?
无论是某种瘾或其他什么，我们依恋某些事物，而神呼召我们放下这些，转向他。 Whether it be some form of addiction or whatever it may be, we're attached to something and God calls us to detach and turn to Him.
这是一个容易的过程吗？ Is that an easy process?
通常不是。 Very often it's not.
这相当困难，对吧？ It's quite difficult, right?
要放下。 To detach.
放下某些事物，在今生转离某些事物，完全委身于主。 from something, to turn away from something in this life and to be totally committed to the Lord.
我知道我在生命中经历过这个，对吧？ I know I've experienced that in my life, right?
必须放下音乐界和聚光灯和虚荣，以及所有那些东西，在某种意义 上放下并转离这些，完全专注于主，因为那是他呼召我去的地方。 Having to detach from the music scene and the limelight and the vanity and all of that stuff and detach and turn my back to that in a sense to be totally focused on the Lord because that's where He was calling me to go.
在这种与世俗之物分离的过程中有痛苦。 There was suffering involved in that detachment from earthly goods.
嗯，许多人认为炼狱的痛苦就是那种分离。 Well, many have reflected upon the pain of purgatory being that detachment.
我们在最后净化中经历的那种分离是痛苦的原因。 That detachment that we're undergoing in the final purification is a cause for suffering.
现在，另一种提到的痛苦是感官之苦。 Now, the other pain that's referred to is the pain of sense.
这是一个有趣的争论。 It's an interesting debate.
让我说，教会还没有对此下定义，所以这是开放的，可以讨论的。 Let me just say that the church has not defined it, and so it's up for grabs, and it's up for debate.
在经院哲学家中，在中世纪神学家中，甚至在早期教父中，甚至在 教宗的常规训导中，都有一个共同的教导，就是存在感官之苦。 There is a common teaching among the scholastics, among the middle-aged theologians, and even within the early church fathers, and even among the popes in the ordinary magisterium, a common teaching that there is a pain of sense.
但问题是，一个离开肉体的灵魂如何能经历感官痛苦，比如来自某种物质之火的痛苦？ But the question is, how can a disembodied soul experience sensory pain, like from a material fire of some sort?
如果它没有可以被烧的身体，对吧，或者没有可以 体验物质之火的身体，灵魂如何能经历感官之苦。 If it doesn't have a body to be burned, right, or to experience the material fire, how can the soul experience the or the pain of sense.
神学家们对于一个离开肉体的灵魂如何仍能经历感官之苦提出了一些有趣的论证，但这对 我们今晚的反思来说有点太深了，说实话，对这里的小修士来说也有点太深了，对吧？ There are some interesting arguments that the theologians give on how a disembodied soul can still experience the pain of sense, but it's just a bit too deep for our reflection tonight, and to be frank with you, A bit too deep for this little canog in here, right?
但底线是这不是确定的。 But bottom line is that it's not definitive.
这是开放的，明白吗？ It's up for grabs, okay?
所以教会没有定义炼狱是否有物质之火，以及你是否会经历感官之苦。 So the church has not defined if purgatory has a material fire and if you're going to suffer from the pain of sense.
许多人争论说如果你没有身体，你怎么能经历感官之苦？ Many have argued if you ain't got a body, how are you going to suffer the pain of sense?
我们就说到这里，好吗？ We can leave it at that, alright?
但我们确实知道炼狱的苦难确实是失落之苦。 But we know for sure that the suffering of purgatory is indeed the pain of loss.
但要始终记住，尽管炼狱的苦难会很剧烈，来自失落之苦，来 自无法获得真福直观，知道你会进入那里，但还不能得到它。 But always remember, as intense as that suffering of purgatory will be, from the pain of loss, the deprivation of the beatific vision, knowing that you go in there, but you can't have it yet.
我不知道你们怎么样，但当我知道两周后要去度假什么的，而那时候还没到，我就在受苦。 I don't know about you guys, but when I know I'm going on vacation in two weeks or something, and they ain't here yet, I'm suffering.
这一点能得到一个阿们吗？ Can I get an amen to that one?
我想我们都能理解这一点。 I think we can relate to that one.
同样，在炼狱中，你知道你将得到永恒的假期，真福直观的永恒安息，但你还不能得到它。 Similarly, in purgatory, you know you've got the eternal vacation, the eternal rest of the beatific vision, but you just can't have it yet.
这将是痛苦的原因，明白吗？ That's going to be a cause for suffering, okay?
好的。 Alrighty.
现在…… Now...
这就结束了我们对苦难本质的简短思考…… So that concludes our brief reflection on the nature of the suffering of...
哦对了，我没有说完我的想法。 Oh yeah, I didn't complete my thought.
我要说的是，当我们思考炼狱苦难的本质以及它可能有多么剧烈时， 我们必须始终记住，即使在最后的净化中也有平安、喜乐和慰藉。 Where I was going with that is, when we reflect upon the nature of the suffering of purgatory and how intense it may very well be, we must always temper that with the idea that there is peace, joy, and consolation even in the final purification.
因为那些在基督奥体中的灵魂，我们传统上称之为什么？ Because those souls in the mystical body of Christ, which we traditionally refer to as what?
受苦的教会，对吧？ The church suffering, right?
那些灵魂比你我现在更接近耶稣基督。 Those souls are closer to Jesus Christ than you and me right now.
因为他们是在与基督的友谊中死去的，而且他们的救恩是有保证的。 Because they have died in friendship with Christ, and they were guaranteed of their salvation.
这是我们现在所没有的。 Something that we do not have right now.
因此，这可以成为他们喜乐和平安的原因。 And therefore, something that can be a cause of joy and peace for them.
明白吗？ Okay?
所以这是一个重要的原则要记住。 So it's an important principle to remember.
好的。 Okay.
让我们进入第七个教理要点。 So let's move to catechetical point number seven.
那就是炼狱的持续时间。 And that is the duration of purgatory.
这是永远存在的吗？ Is this something that's going to exist forever?
还是暂时的？ Or is it temporary?
嗯，净化本身是暂时的。 Well, the purification itself is temporary.
所以就像经历净化的灵魂一样，是暂时的。 So like the soul going through the purification, it's temporary.
它最终会结束。 It's eventually going to cease.
那个灵魂将进入真福直观。 and that soul will enter into the beatific vision.
但教会教导说，炼狱本身的现实在总审判之后，在最后审判之后将不再存在。 But the reality of purgatory itself, the Church teaches, will no longer exist after the general judgment, after the final judgment.
这是克莱孟六世教宗的教导。 Here's what Pope Clement VI taught.
他在1342年至1352年在位。他说：「……如果你曾相信并现在相信他们将 被火炼净一段时间，注意，是一段时间，而且一旦他们被洁净，甚至在审判日之前 ，他们就可以进入真实和永恒的福乐，这福乐就是面对面地看见神并在爱中。」 He reigned from 1342 to 1352. He states, ...also if you have believed and now believe that they will be tortured by fire for a time, notice, for a time, and that as soon as they are cleansed, even before the day of judgment, they may come to the true and eternal beatitude which consists in the vision of God face to face and in love.
所以克莱孟六世教宗的声明暗示炼狱将不复存在。 So the implication here from Pope Clement VI's statement is that purgatory will cease to exist.
在审判日之后它将不再存在。 It will no longer be after the Day of Judgment.
所以他指的是净化，这最后的净化，直到审判日，之后炼狱的现实将不再存在。 So he's referring to purgation, this final purification, up to the Day of Judgment, after which there will no longer be the reality of purgatory.
圣奥古斯丁写道：「让净化的惩罚只在那最后和可怕的审判之前计算。」 St. Augustine writes the following, Let purification punishments be counted on only before that last and terrible judgment.
只在那最后和可怕的审判之前。 Only before that last and terrible judgment.
这暗示什么？ What's the implication?
在总审判之后。 After the general judgment.
在最后审判之后，炼狱将不再存在。 After the final judgment, purgatory will no longer exist.
好的，那么下一个问题是，在炼狱中的时间如何，对吧？ Okay, well the next question is, well, what about time in purgatory, right?
灵魂是否像我们今天一样经历时间？ Do the souls experience time as we experience today?
因为，你知道，教会不是曾经说过如果做了这个特 定的大赦，就能减少300天的炼狱时间，对吧？ Because, you know, didn't the church used to say if this particular indulgence was performed, you'd get 300 days off of purgatory, right?
那么炼狱的时间是否像我们今天经历的一样？ So is purgatory time as we experience it today?
不是。炼狱的存在不是像我们在今生经历的时间，也不是神的永恒当下。 No. The existence of purgatory is not the time as we experience it in this life, nor is it the eternal now of God.
因为本质上只有神是永恒的。 Because God alone, in essence, is eternal.
无始无终。 Without beginning, without end.
我们有开始。 We have a beginning.
我们没有终结，但我们有开始。 We don't have an end, but we have a beginning.
所以神学家们会提到来世的居所，即使是现在天堂里的灵魂，炼狱中的灵魂，甚至天使。 And so the theologians would refer to the abode of the afterlife, even for the souls in heaven, right now, the souls in purgatory, and even for the angels.
他们称之为永久性。 They refer to it as avaternity.
这只是一个神学上的技术性细节。 Just a little theological, technical nuance there.
但想法是这样的。 But the idea is this.
炼狱中的灵魂不会像我们今天这样经历物理时间，不会经历这种24小时周期的连续日子。 The souls in purgatory do not experience physical time as we experience it today in this sort of 24-hour period succession of days.
然而，按照亚里士多德哲学的说法，仍然有一些从潜能到实现的运动。 However, there is still some movement, as we would say according to Aristotelian philosophy, of movement from potency to act.
换句话说，从潜能到现实。 In other words, potentiality to actuality.
例如，说实话，就是从未被净化到被净化，对吧？ For example, to be frank, going from not being purified to being purified, right?
还没有达到真福直观所需的圣洁状态。 Not being at the state of holiness necessary for the beatific vision.
所以那里仍然有某种运动。 So there's still some sort of movement there.
仍然有某种从我们所说的潜能到现实的运动。 There's still some sort of movement from what we call potency to actuality.
所以在这个意义上是有时间的。 So there's time in that sense.
但这将与我们在今生经历的方式大不相同。 But it's going to be something far different than the way we experience it in this life.
物理时间，也就是在时空连续体中的时间。 Physical time, that is, within the space-time continuum.
对吧，迈克？ Right, Mike?
迈克，你在哪里？ Where are you at, Mike?
好的，所以炼狱中没有日子之分。 Okay, and so there are no days in purgatory.
现在，在这一点上，重要的是要注意关于炼狱和大赦中使用天数的传统用法。 Now, at this particular point, it's important to make a note about the traditional usage of days in reference to purgatory and indulgences.
正如你们许多人所知道的，在传统中，教会经常会规定某种爱德行为作为大赦，对吧？ As many of you know, in the tradition, many times the church would prescribe a certain act of charity as an indulgence, right?
而教会会给这个大赦附加，比如说，减少300天的炼狱时间，对吧？ And the church would attach to that indulgence, say, let's say, 300 days off of your purgatory time, right?
那么，这是否意味着教会理解炼狱是连续的日子？ Well, does that imply that the church understood purgatory to be a succession of days?
不是。教会使用天数来指代炼狱，只是为了在教会认定为大赦的这个特 定爱德行为与古代教会300天的补赎之间画一个对应关系，对吧？ No. The way the church used the days in reference to purgatory was simply to draw a parallel between this particular act of charity that the church would ascribe to be an indulgence That would be equivalent to 300 days of penance in the ancient church, right?
所以，例如，如果有人犯了通奸罪，他们在被允许重新参加 圣餐庆典，回到主的餐桌之前要做三年的补赎行为，对吧？ So, for example, if somebody would commit adultery, and they would have three years of penitential action before being admitted back to the Eucharistic celebration, the table of the Lord, right?
那么，一个大赦可以说是减少三年的炼狱时间。 Well, an indulgence could be said three years off of your purgatory time.
教会这样说是什么意思？ What did the church mean by that?
这个大赦，这个爱德行为，相当于古代教会中三年的补赎行为。 This indulgence, this act of charity, is equivalent to three years worth of penitential action in the ancient church.
所以这就是教会使用减少炼狱天数这种说法的含义。 So that's what the church meant by using the terminology of days off of purgatory.
并不是暗示我们在炼狱中的经历是像今生的时间。 Not implying our experience of purgatory being time in this life.
只是简单地与古代教会的补赎行为作对比。 Just simply drawing the parallel with penitential action in the ancient church.
现在，教会是否废除了使用这种将天数附加到大赦上的说法等等？是 的，教会以其智慧这样做了，因为这在人们心中造成了很多混淆。 Now, did the church do away with with using this terminology of attaching days to indulgences, etc. Yes, the church did that in her wisdom because of all of the confusion that it was bringing about within people's minds.
好的，最后，我们来到第九个教理要点，那就是炼狱中的灵魂可以为我们代祷。 Okay, finally, we come to catechetical point number nine, and that is the souls in purgatory can intercede for us.
有趣的是，这是许多神学家争论的主题。 Interestingly enough, this is a subject of debate among many theologians.
有些人会说他们不能为我们祈祷，因为炼狱的苦 难是完全被动的，只是接受那种净化，对吧？ Some will argue that they can't pray for us because the suffering of purgatory is totally passive, receiving that purification, right?
因此他们不能为自己做任何事，然后有些人会说 他们也不能为基督奥体的其他成员做任何事。 And so they can't do anything for themselves, and then some will argue they can't do anything for other members of the mystical body of Christ.
然而，《教理》似乎暗示炼狱中的灵魂作为基督奥体的成员可以为我们祈祷。 However, the catechism seems to suggest that that the souls in purgatory can pray for us as members of the mystical body of Christ.
所以我来和你们分享那段引文。 So I'll share that quote with you.
《教理》第958段是这样说的。 Paragraph 958, the Catechism states this.
现在这是在谈论死者的背景下。 Now this is within the context of the dead.
它在谈论那些在友谊中死去的灵魂。 It's talking about those souls who die in friendship.
它在谈论为死者祈祷。 It's talking about praying for the dead.
我们将在今晚讲座的第二部分讨论这个以及其圣经依据。 We're going to get to that and the biblical evidence for that in the second part of tonight's talk.
这是《教理》所说的。 Here's what the catechism says.
我们为他们的祈祷，指的是为炼狱中的灵魂，我们为他们的 祈祷不仅能帮助他们，还能使他们为我们的代祷更有效。 Our prayer for them, in reference to the souls in purgatory, our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.
那里指的是谁？ Who's there?
那个「他们」是谁？ Who's the there?
是炼狱中的灵魂。 It's the souls in purgatory.
《教理》指的是炼狱中的灵魂，并说当我们为他们祈祷时，他们为我们的代祷会更有效。 The Catechism is referring to the souls in purgatory and says that their intercession is more effective for us when we pray for them.
这是一个有趣的说法。 Now that's an interesting statement.
我们可以在这里追寻一个小问题来思考这个。 We could chase just a little rabbit here and think about this.
这背后的神学理由是什么？ What would be the theological rationale behind that?
那么，你猜怎么着？ Well, guess what?
你知道圣经教导我们什么？ You know what the Bible teaches us?
圣经教导我们，罪会阻碍祈祷的效力。 The Bible teaches us that sin impedes the effectiveness of prayer.
与此相反，根据雅各书5:16，义人祈祷所发的力量是大有功效的，结出许多果实。 The flip side of that, according to James 5.16, the prayer of a righteous man avails much, bears much fruit.
所以想一想。 So think about it.
如果灵魂在这最后的净化中？ If the soul is in this final purification?
小罪的罪责被除去。 The guilt of venial sin is removed.
罪从灵魂中被除去。 Sin is removed from the soul.
灵魂正在被净化。 The soul is being purified.
那么，这就说得通了，当小罪的罪责被除去时，那个人为我的祈祷会变得更有效，对吧？ Well then, that would make sense that the prayer of that person, for me, would become more effective as the guilt of venial sin is removed, right?
所以，《教理》…… So, the catechism...
因为你猜怎么着？ Because guess what?
他们是基督奥体的成员，我亲爱的朋友们。 They're members of the mystical body of Christ, my dear friends.
得胜的教会，灵魂在天堂。 Church triumphant, the soul is in heaven.
受苦的教会，灵魂在炼狱。 Church suffering, the soul is in purgatory.
而按照我们的传统所说的，战斗的教会，就是我们这些在世上的人。 And as our tradition refers to it, the church militant, which is us here on earth.
为什么说战斗？ Why militant?
因为我们仍在与罪争战。 Because we're still fighting sin.
我们仍在与那些魔鬼争战，对吧？ We're still fighting those demons, right?
我们仍在与自己的恶习争战，你知道，这些恶习源于我们自己的软弱。 We're still fighting our own vices, you know, that arise from our own weakness.
这些是我认为在我们谈论炼狱时需要强调的九个教理要点。 These are nine catechetical points that I think are important for us to highlight when we're talking about predatory.
还有更多吗？ Are there more?
确实，还有更多。 Indeed, there are more.
关于这个主题有整卷的著作，对吧，还有教义论文。 There's whole volumes, right, and dogmatic treatises on this topic.
我在今晚讲座之前读了一些，但内容太多了，就像信息超载一样，对吧。 I was reading some of them prior to tonight's talk, but it was so much, it was like overload, right, over-download of info.
所以这些是我想要为你们强调的九个基本要点。 So these are nine essential points that I wanted to highlight for you.
现在，在我们休息之前…… Now, before we take our break...
让我们继续进入今晚讲座的第二部分，也就是炼狱的圣经依据。 Let's go ahead and move into the second part of tonight's talk, and that is the biblical evidence for purgatory.
正如你们许多人所知道的，你们知道为什么这如此重要，对吧？ And as many of you know, you know why this is so important, right?
因为我们的新教弟兄姐妹经常会问我们这个常见问题，这在圣经中在哪里？ Because very often our Protestant brothers and sisters will ask us the common question, where is that in the Bible?
你们许多人是从新教传统皈依公教的，所以我相信你们许多人都能认同这个新教的问题。 Many of you come from a Protestant tradition converting to Catholicism, so I'm sure many of you could affirm that Protestant question.
这在圣经中在哪里？ Where is that in the Bible?
所以对我们公教徒来说，了解这一点很重要，这样我们就能与新教的弟兄姐妹分享。 So it's important for us to know, as Catholics, so that we can share it with our Protestant brothers and sisters.
而且，你知道，利奥十世在1520年，就在第五次拉特兰会议 结束后（我想是1517年结束的），发布了一个教宗诏书，题 为《Exsuge Domini》，意思是「兴起，主啊」。 But furthermore, you know, Pope Leo X in 1520, which is right after, I think, the Fifth Lateran Council, which ended in 1517. He issued a papal bull entitled Exsuge Domini, which is Arise, O Lord.
在这个教宗诏书中，利奥十世宣布他实际上是在驳斥马丁路德当时的 一些错误，因为宗教改革刚刚开始，马丁路德否认了各种信仰奥秘。 And in this papal bull, Pope Leo X declared he was actually refuting some of the errors of Martin Luther at the time, because the Reformation was just beginning, with Martin Luther's rejection of the various mysteries of faith.
利奥十世在驳斥马丁路德的错误时，宣布炼狱可以在圣经中得到证明。 And Pope Leo X, refuting the errors of Martin Luther, declared purgatory can be demonstrated in the Bible.
这就像是教会的一个正式教导，因为马丁路德在否认它。 It was like an official teaching of the church because Martin Luther was denying it.
马丁路德说，啊，圣经中没有任何地方提到炼狱。 Martin Luther was saying, ah, there's nowhere in the Bible purgatory.
除了圣经，我们在任何地方都找不到它。 We don't find it anywhere other than Holy Writ.
不，它在圣经中是有证据的。 No, it is attested to in Sacred Scripture.
所以，我要和你们分享的是教会经常思考的一些圣经例子。 So, what I'm going to share with you are some of the various examples from the Bible that the Church has often reflected upon.
你甚至可以说，圣经中的某些数据使我们得出结论， 炼狱是在圣经中能找到的，是在圣经中有记载的。 You might even say certain sets of data from the Bible that leads us to conclude that purgatory is found in Holy Writ, is found in Sacred Scripture.
所以，我们的第一组数据至少在圣经上是合理的。 So, our first set of data is at least biblically reasonable.
在我们讨论那些我认为明确揭示炼狱存在的经文 之前，我们可以看到这至少在圣经上是合理的。 Before we get to the explicit text that I would argue reveals the existence of purgatory, we can see that it's at least biblically reasonable.
这里有三个解经步骤。 And there are three steps of exegesis to this.
第一步。一个人可以带着灵魂的污点死去，但仍然保持与基督的友谊。 Step 1. A person can die with defilement on the soul and still remain in friendship with Christ.
还记得《教理》的那个教导吗？ Remember that teaching of the catechism?
那些在神的恩典和友谊中死去的人，那些仍然不完全纯净的人。 Those who die in God's grace and friendship, those still imperfectly purify.
我们说教会指的是什么？ And we said the church was referring to what?
小罪的罪责。 The guilt of venial sin.
与摧毁灵魂中恩典的大罪罪责相比，小罪不会摧毁恩典，但会削弱恩典。 In contrast to the guilt of mortal sin, which destroys grace in the soul, venial sin doesn't destroy grace, but it weakens grace.
它削弱灵魂中的超性生命。 It weakens the supernatural life in the soul.
但尽管如此，灵魂仍与基督保持友谊。 But nevertheless, the soul is in friendship with Christ.
所以问题是，这在圣经中能找到吗？ So the question is, is this found in the Bible?
在圣经中能找到你可以有罪但仍然与耶稣基督保持友谊的记载吗？ Is it found in the Bible that you can be guilty of sin and still be in friendship with Jesus Christ?
答案是肯定的。 Then the answer is yes.
我要和你们分享的圣经段落。 Biblical passages I'll share with you.
第一段是约翰一书5章16-17节，这是我们在公教传统中一 直引用的经典经文，作为小罪和大罪之间存在差异的圣经依据。 The first of which is 1 John 5, verses 16-17, which is the classic text that we have always referred to in our Catholic tradition as a biblical support for the existence of the difference between venial and mortal sin.
罪有不同的后果，罪有不同的程度。 Sin having different consequences, varying degrees of sin.
他写道，若有人看见他的弟兄犯了一件不至于死的罪…… He writes, if anyone sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin...
现在，希腊原文在那里写的是，一个不至于死的罪。 Now, the original Greek text there reads, a sin not unto death.
一些英文译本就是这样翻译的。 Some English translations will have it like that.
一个不至于死的罪。 A sin not unto death.
这个修订标准版本简单地说，一个不是致死的罪。 This Revised Standard Version simply says, a sin that is not mortal.
它说的是什么死？ What death is it talking about?
肉体的死亡还是超性的死亡？ Physical death or supernatural death?
超性的死亡，神的生命在灵魂中的死亡。 Supernatural death, the death of God's life and the soul.
所以他说，若有人看见他的弟兄犯了一件不至于死的罪，就是不致 死的罪，他就当祈求，神必将生命赐给那些犯不至于死之罪的人。 So he says, if anyone sees his brother committing that which is not a mortal sin, that is a sin not unto death, he will ask and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal, not unto death.
他接着说，有一种罪是致死的。 There is a sin, he goes on, which is mortal.
换句话说，就是至于死的。 In other words, which is unto death.
我不说当为这罪祈求。 I do not say that one is to pray for that.
凡不义的事都是罪。 All wrongdoing is sin.
但有不至于死的罪。 But there is sin which is not mortal, not unto death.
所以有至于死的罪。 So there is sin unto death.
我们称之为大罪。 We call it mortal sin.
为什么？ Why?
因为它带来死亡，超性生命的死亡。 Because it brings about the death, mortality of the supernatural life.
但有不至于死的罪。 But there is a sin not unto death.
我们称之为小罪，轻罪，它不会带来超性生命的死 亡，虽然它可能削弱它，或者说它确实会削弱它。 We call that venial sin, a light sin, that doesn't bring death to the supernatural life, although it may weaken it, or it does weaken it.
不是可能，我们确实知道。 Not may, we know for sure.
所以这是第一个例子，见证了一种程度的罪，虽然会玷污人。 So this is the first example of witnessing to a degree of sin that could defile the person nevertheless.
但仍允许这人保持与神的友谊。 But, allow the person to still remain in friendship with God.
我们也来看耶稣自己的话。 We also look to Jesus himself.
许多护教学者和神学家都看到马太福音5章19-20节，耶 稣在那里说：「所以无论何人废掉这诫命中最小的一条……」 Many apologists and theologians have looked to Matthew 5, 19-20, where Jesus says, ...whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments...
「又教训人这样做的，他在天国要称为最小的。」 And teaches men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
「但无论何人遵行这诫命，又教训人遵行的，他在天国要称为大的。」 But he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
「我告诉你们，你们的义若不胜于文士和法利赛人的义，断不能进天国。」 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
注意耶稣是如何说的，如果有人废掉这些诫命中最小 的一条，又教训人这样做，他在天国要称为最小的。 Notice how Jesus says, if someone relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men to do so, he shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven.
所以，首先，似乎有罪的程度之分，对吧？ So, first of all, there seems to be degrees of sin, right?
最小的诫命，最小程度的罪。 Least commandments, a least degree of sin.
如果你犯了那最小程度的罪，你仍然是什么？ And if you commit that least degree of sin, you're still what?
你仍然在天国里。 You're still in the kingdom.
你至少在天国里，但无论如何，你仍然在天国里。 You're at least in the kingdom, but nevertheless, you're still in the kingdom.
所以许多人看到耶稣的这句话，强调罪有不同程度的现实。 So many have looked to this saying of Jesus to emphasize the reality of how there's varying degrees of sin.
有些罪能使我们无法进入天国。 Some can keep us out of the kingdom.
圣保罗在哥林多前书6章9-10节谈到这些，对吧？ St. Paul talks about those in 1 Corinthians 6, 9-10, right?
加拉太书5章，以弗所书5章给我们列出了那些使我们无法进入神国的罪。 Galatians 5, Ephesians 5 gives us a list of those sins that keep us from the kingdom of God.
耶稣似乎暗示有些罪我们可能会犯，但仍然在天国里。 Jesus seems to imply that there are some sins that we can commit, but still be in the kingdom.
我们是在提倡去犯你想犯的所有罪，只要是在你里面的吗？ Are we advocating to go and commit all the sin you want, as long as it's in you?
绝对不是，对吧？ Absolutely not, right?
那不是爱，各位，对吧？ That's not love, folks, right?
如果你真的爱主，你会尽你所能甚至避免小罪。 If you truly love the Lord, you will do what you can to even avoid venial sin.
为什么？ Why?
因为最小的冒犯…… Because the smallest offense...
对我们所爱的主来说，仍然是冒犯。 against our beloved Lord, is still an offense.
如果我们真的爱他，我们不想以任何方式冒犯他。 And if we truly love Him, we don't want to offend Him in any way or fashion.
我们有时会吗？ Will we at times?
可能会。 Probably so.
我想这里没有人是蒙福的童贞马利亚，对吧？ I don't think anybody in here is a Blessed Virgin Mary, right?
好吧？ Okay?
所以可能会。 So probably so.
我们会跌倒。 We will fall.
在今生我们无法达到完全的爱。 We will fall short of perfect love in this life.
但感谢神，即使我们因小罪而在爱上有所欠缺，我们仍然可以与基督保持友谊。 But, thanks be to God, even if we do fall short of love with venial sin, we can still be in friendship with Christ.
而且仍然可以从基督奥体的其他成员的祈祷中获得医治我们的恩典，对吧？ And still receive the graces from prayers of other members of the mystical body of Christ to heal us, right?
使我们更接近耶稣。 And to get us closer to Jesus.
这就是第一步。 So that's the first step.
一个人可以带着污点死去，灵魂上带着污点，但仍然保持与基督的友谊。 A person can die in defilement, with defilement on the soul, and still remain in friendship with Christ.
如果灵魂只有小罪，并且死去，那个灵魂仍然与神保持友谊，但灵魂上有污点，对吧？ If the soul is guilty of only venial sin, and dies, that soul is still in God's friendship, but there's defilement on the soul, right?
第二步。 Step two.
各位，污点不能进入天国。 Defilement cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, folks.
圣约翰说得明明白白。 St. John makes it plain and clear.
启示录21:27说得很简单明了：凡不洁净的，总不得进那城。 Very simple and short in Revelation 21-27. Nothing unclean shall enter it.
他在谈论天上的耶路撒冷。 He's talking about the heavenly Jerusalem.
天堂本身。 Heaven itself.
凡不洁净的，总不得进入。 Nothing unclean shall enter it.
所以想想这个。 So think about that.
一个灵魂可以在与神的友谊中死去，但灵魂上仍有污点。 A soul can die in friendship with God, but still have defilement on the soul.
那就是小罪的污点，对吧？ That is venial defilement, right?
小罪的罪责。 The guilt of venial sin.
但任何污点都不能进入天堂。 But nothing of defilement can enter into heaven.
那结论是什么？ So what's the conclusion?
那个因为在与基督的友谊中死去而确保能上天堂的灵魂， 但因为污点而不能进入天堂，那个污点必须要被处理。 That soul that's guaranteed of heaven because it died in friendship with Christ, but can't enter heaven because of the defilement, that defilement's going to have to get taken care of.
你们都明白吗？ Do y'all see that?
你明白吗？ Do you see that?
清楚吗？ Is that clear?
对吧？ Right?
所以，一旦你承认在与基督的友谊中死去的可能性，灵魂上仍带着小 罪的污点，但任何污点都不能进入天堂，那个污点就必须要被处理。 So, the minute you acknowledge the possibility of dying in friendship with Christ, still with defilement on the soul of venial guilt, but nothing of defilement can enter into heaven, that defilement has to get taken care of.
无论是瞬间还是过程，你猜怎么着？ Whether it's an instant or it's a process, guess what?
教会也从未对此下定义。 The church never defined that either.
是灵魂瞬间被净化掉污点，还是一个漫长的过程，我们简单地说不知道。 Whether it's an instant purification where the soul is purified of the defilement, or if it's a process and a long duration, we simply do not know.
普遍的传统，普遍的教导是这是一个过程，是有持续时间的，但教会从未对此下定义。 The common tradition, the common teaching is that it is a process, it is a duration, but the church has never defined that.
所以，我认为这是我们从圣经本身得到的第一组数据，开始了我们理解炼狱的旅程。 So, this I think is our first set of data from the Bible itself that begins us on the journey toward purgatory.
这至少在圣经上是合理的。 It's at least biblically reasonable.
根据圣经的启示，灵魂带着污点死去但仍与神保持友谊，而任何 污点都不能进入天堂，神学上的结论就是这污点必须要被处理。 According to the biblical revelation of dying with defilement on the soul but still being in friendship with God, and nothing of defilement can enter into heaven, a theological conclusion would be that defilement has to get taken care of.
在今生或来世进入真福直观之前，这污点必须要被处理，所以这至少 在圣经上是合理的。现在让我们先休息一下，休息回来后我们将继续 讨论第二组数据，也就是显示死后存在净化状态的圣经例子，阿们。 before entering into the beatific vision either in this life or in the next so it's at least biblically reasonable now let's go ahead and take our break right now and when we come back from our break we're going to pick up with data set number two and that is the biblical examples that show the existence of a purifying state after death amen