大家好，我是来自The Catechumen的布雷登，欢迎回来观看另一期视频。 Hey everyone, this is Brayden from The Catechumen and welcome back to another video.
今天我们再次邀请到卡拉·布鲁萨德博士。 Today we're back again with Dr. Karlo Broussard.
感谢您再次来到节目，与我讨论您的另一本书《炼狱是真实的》。 Thank you for coming back on with me to discuss another one of your books, Purgatory is for Real.
我对您关于炼狱的见解非常感兴趣，特别是关于它如 何成为我们基督徒喜乐的源泉，而不是绝望的来源。 I am so interested in what you have to say about purgatory, about how it's a source of joy for us Christians and not of despair.
我觉得新教徒常常会想到炼狱的教义就认为，哦，这基本上就是第二个地狱。 I think a lot of times Protestants will think of this doctrine of purgatory and think, oh, it's basically a second hell.
这基本上就像是第二个天堂。 It's basically like a second heaven.
死后的第二次机会，在进入永恒归宿之前尝试与神和好。 Second chance after death to try and get right with God before you go to your eternal destiny.
我认为您在这本书中要告诉我们的，以及我们今天要讨论的内容都会非常重要。 And I think what you have to say in this book to us and what we have to talk about today is going to be really important.
卡尔，你最近怎么样？ So how are you doing, Carl?
布雷登，我很好，兄弟。 Brayden, I'm doing great, man.
非常感谢你再次邀请我。 Thank you so much for having me back on.
能和你在一起是我的荣幸和祝福，兄弟。 It's an honor and a blessing to be with you, brother.
我很期待再次和你深入讨论。 I'm looking forward to geeking out with you again.
上次我们讨论我的新书《圣徒为你祈祷》中关于圣徒代祷的内容时，我 玩得很开心，我真的很期待能和你一起深入探讨这个主题的神学细节。 I had such a blast last time when we were talking about the intercession of the saints in my new book, The Saints Pray For You, and I'm really looking forward to diving in and getting into some theological nerdy stuff with you on this topic.
这一定会很精彩。 It's going to be great.
我喜欢讨论炼狱、称义、大赦这类话题，这似乎也是这本书讨论的主要内容之一。 I love talking about purgatory, justification, indulgences, that sort of stuff, and it seems like that is one of the main things talked about in this book.
但是对于那些不了解的人，可能是在研究炼狱的新教徒，正在观看这个视频的人，或者是对 炼狱不太了解或者没有接受过很好教理教导的公教徒，您能否简单总结一下炼狱的教义？ But for those of us who don't know, Protestants who might be looking into purgatory, watching this video, or maybe Catholics who don't really know or work catechized very well about what purgatory is, would you maybe give a short summary of the doctrine of purgatory?
好的，我想我们可以用以下方式综合《公教会教理》第1030至1031段的内容。 Yeah, so I think we can synthesize the content from paragraphs 1030 to 1031 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church with the following formulation.
炼狱是一个死后的最终净化过程，是为那些在与耶稣的友谊中 死去，但尚未达到进入真福境界所需完全圣洁的人准备的。 Purgatory is a post-mortem, after death, final purification for those who have died in friendship with Jesus, but yet have not attained the perfect holiness necessary for entrance into the beatific vision.
这是一个很好的表述。 And so that's a nice formulation there.
当然，这需要进一步解释。 And then that requires unpacking, of course.
但是通过这个表述，我们能够立即应对某些挑战，或者至少我应该说能立即澄清某些误解。 But within that formulation, we're able to meet certain challenges right off the bat, or at least I should say clarify certain misconceptions right off the bat.
首先，这是死后的事。 So first of all, it's postmortem.
这意味着是在死亡之后。 That means it's after death.
当然，我们的新教朋友会立即对此提出异议。 And of course, our Protestant friends are going to immediately object to that.
因为他们认为死后灵魂只有两种存在方式或状态，天堂或地狱。 because they're thinking in their mind that there are only two modes of existence or conditions of the soul after death, heaven or hell.
他们有他们的理由，我在《炼狱是真实的》一书中讨论了这个问题，探 讨了一些对选民既非天堂也非地狱的中间状态这一观念的圣经异议。 And they have their reasons for that, and I deal with that in my book, Purgatory is for Real, looking at a few biblical objections to this idea of an interim state, neither heaven nor hell, for the elect.
我在书中讨论了这个问题，但它确实是死后的事。 And so I deal with that in the book, but it's post-mortem after death.
最终净化。 Final purification.
所以净化将是我们必须讨论的一个主题或概念，我们需要回答由此产生的一些问题。 So purification is going to be a theme or an idea that we're going to have to talk about, answer certain questions that arise.
这种净化是否痛苦？ Is the purification painful?
那里是否有剧烈的痛苦？ Is there intense suffering there?
痛苦的程度如何？ What degree of suffering?
所有这些问题我都在我的书中讨论过。 All of those questions I do address in my book.
然后我们将需要从圣经的角度，为那些在与耶稣的 友谊中死去的人辩护这种死后净化状态的主题。 And then we're going to have to defend the motif of purification in this postmortem state of existence, biblically speaking, for those who die in friendship with Jesus.
这是关键，布雷登。 That's key, Braden.
因为按照这个说法，我们相信在炼狱中的灵魂只有那些绝对保证能上天堂的 灵魂，因为他们在死时已经接受了个别审判，所以他们的命运已经确定。这 些灵魂是那些在与耶稣的友谊中，带着成圣恩典死去的人的灵魂，因此他们 不会被定罪，他们与基督的结合是确定的，所以炼狱不是第二次机会。 because in that formulation we believe that the souls in purgatory are only those souls who are absolutely guaranteed heaven because they have already received their particular judgment at death so their destiny is sealed and these souls are the souls of those who died in friendship with Jesus with sanctifying grace and therefore are not subject to condemnation they're fixed in their union with Christ and so Purgatory is not a second chance.
考虑到分离灵魂及其选择的形而上学现实，以及神向我们启 示的计划和护理秩序，炼狱中的灵魂不可能最终下地狱。 There is no possibility, given the metaphysics of the reality of a separated soul and its choice, but also by way of God's plan and order of providence revealed to us, those souls in purgatory cannot end up in hell.
因此炼狱不是获得救恩的第二次机会。 And so purgatory is not a second chance at salvation.
这只是我们许多新教朋友对这个教义的错误理解而设立的稻草人。 That is simply a straw man that many of our Protestant friends have misconceived the doctrine for.
然后是那些在与耶稣的友谊中死去，但尚未达到进入真福境界所需圣洁的人。 And then those who die in friendship with Jesus who have not yet attained the holiness necessary for entrance into the beatific vision.
这是什么意思？ What do we mean by that?
我们的意思是，虽然个人是在爱德和与神的友谊中死去，因此确保能上天堂，但可能 仍然存在一些需要净化或清除的罪的残余，以完成成圣的过程，使灵魂能够进入真福 境界。这是基于启示录21:27的圣经依据，即凡不洁净的，总不得进神的国。 What we mean by that is that the individual, although having died in charity and in friendship with God and thus guaranteed heaven, still may very well have some remnants of sin that need to be purified or purged in order to bring to completion the process of sanctification for that soul to enter into the beatific vision, given the biblical data of Revelation 21-27 that no defilement can enter into the kingdom of God.
而且从常识来看，根据关于天堂的启示，你不能带着罪或任何罪的残余进入天堂。 And just common sense, given revealed data of heaven, you can't be having sin or any remnants of sin to get into heaven.
因此，这些罪的残余必须在进入天堂之前被净化。 And so those remnants of sin are going to have to be purified before entrance into heaven.
但是，当然，这就引出了一个问题，这些罪的残余是什么？ But, of course, that raises the question, well, what are such remnants of sin?
所以我们必须讨论这个问题，我相信我们会深入探讨的。 And so we would have to talk about that, and I'm sure we will, and get into that.
我在书中阐述了所有这些不同的罪的残余，它们基本上就是需要被净化的对象。 And I articulate all of those different remnants of sin in the book, which are basically the objects of purification.
比如，在这些确保能上天堂但还不够圣洁无法进入真福 境界的选民的最终净化中，到底要净化什么，对吧？ Like, what's getting purified in this final purification of the elect who are guaranteed heaven but yet not holy enough to enter into the beatific vision, right?
所以我们必须讨论这些罪的残余。 And so we'd have to talk about those remnants of sin.
但你可以看到，这个关于炼狱的表述涉及许多不同的假设和原则，我们需要讨论和辩护， 而且这个表述也立即澄清了许多新教朋友，甚至不幸的是一些公教徒所持有的某些误解。 But you can see how that formulation of purgatory involves a variety of different assumptions and principles that we would have to talk about and defend, and then also that formulation clarifies certain misconceptions right off the bat that many of our Protestant friends, and even Catholics unfortunately, have.
当然，是的。 For sure, yeah.
当我们谈论炼狱时，有太多相互关联的部分，很难 只关注一个方面而不涉及其他众多相关的内容。 And when we're talking about purgatory, there's just so many different moving parts that kind of fit together, and it's very difficult to just kind of focus on one thing without it being connected to a whole host of other things.
所以，是的，我们在这个视频中可能会经常跳转话题，但这没关系。 And so, yeah, we're probably going to be jumping around a lot this video, but that's fine.
你知道，我们在深入研究。 You know, we're geeking out.
我们在讨论神学。 We're talking theology.
这就是你要做的。 That's what you do.
所以我想，你知道，现在我脑子里有很多问题。 And so I guess, you know, there's a lot of questions going through my head right now.
我正在尽量保持... And I'm trying to stay as...
在讨论这个话题时尽可能有条理。 orderly as possible, as possible as we can be when we're talking about this.
但人们常说每个人都相信某种形式的炼狱。 But it has often been said that everyone believes in a type of purgatory.
因为我们都承认有一个道德成长的过程。 Since we all confess there's a process of moral growth.
你谈到了成圣。 You talked about sanctification.
我们都经历成圣，这个变得更加纯净的过程。 We all undergo sanctification, this process of becoming purgatory.
更加效法基督，更加圣洁。 more conformed to Christ, more holy.
但这个过程在人生终结时是不完整的。 But that process is incomplete at the end of a person's life.
在我们进入天堂之前这个过程必须完成，因为你知道，正 如圣经所说，我们需要达到一定的圣洁才能进入天堂。 And it has to be complete before we get into heaven because nothing, you know, we have a holiness that we, or there's a holiness that we need to achieve before we get into heaven as Scripture says.
所以，你知道，著名的新教神学家，刘易斯和其他 人都相信并承认这一点，说炼狱是一件美好的事。 And so, you know, notable Protestant theologians, C.S. Lewis and others believe this and confess this, say purgatory is a beautiful thing.
这是我们在进入神的同在之前所期待的事情。 It's something that we would expect of God before we enter into his presence.
我想把这称为最简主义观点。 I guess I want to call this the minimalist view.
这就像是你成圣的终点，成圣的完成，仅此而已。 It's just kind of like an end to your sanctification, completion of your sanctification, and nothing else.
按照你的判断，你认为这是一个充分的解释吗，还是教会要求我们相信比这更具体的内容？ In your estimation, do you think this is like an adequate explanation, or does the church require us to believe something more specific than just this?
成圣的完成？ the completion of your sanctification?
是的，很好的问题。 Yeah, great question.
这里面包含了几个问题。 So a couple of questions embedded in one there.
让我们把这些问题理清楚。 Let's untangle the questions and ask.
第一个问题是，这是对炼狱的一个好的阐述吗？ One question would be, is this a good articulation of purgatory?
当然，这与第二个问题有关，即教会关于炼狱的现实要教导什么。 Of course, it's going to be related to the second question of what the church is going to teach concerning the reality of purgatory.
关于这个问题，我确实认为这是对炼狱的一个好 的阐述，它让我们走上了理解炼狱的正确轨道。 So with regard to the question, I do think it is a good articulation of purgatory, and it puts us on the track of purgatory.
虽然，正如我在书中所论证的，我认为这并不能 让我们完全理解教会关于炼狱教义的完整图景。 Although, as I argue in my book, I do not think it gets us to the end goal of getting a complete picture of what the church teaches about the doctrine of purgatory.
所以这个逻辑确实是有效的，对吧？ So the logic is definitely valid, right?
这个推理是可靠和有效的，即我们很可能带着一些罪的残余而死。 The reasoning is solid and valid such that it is likely that we will die with some remnants of sin.
一些缺乏完全的圣洁或成圣。 some lack of perfect holiness or sanctification.
考虑到启示告诉我们没有不完全的能进入天堂，在死亡和 荣耀之间，在进入天堂之前必须要完成这个成圣的过程。 And given the revealed data that nothing imperfect can enter into heaven, there's going to, between death and glory, there's going to have to be some completion of that process of sanctification before entrance into heaven.
就这种推理而言，这是有效的，是可靠的，这符合公教徒对炼狱教 义最基本的论证方式，大多数基督徒，甚至新教徒都可以接受，布 雷登，让我们稍微深入一点，即使在法庭式称义模式中也是如此。 That, insofar as you reason as such, that's valid, that's solid, and that maps on to how a Catholic's going to argue in a minimal way for the doctrine of purgatory, which most Christians, even Protestants, can adopt and accept and, Braden, just to nerd out a little bit here, even within the forensic view of justification model.
因为在这种法庭式称义观中，其理念是一个人与神的正确关系完全基 于神的法庭式宣告，即我与他有正确的关系，以及基督归算的义。 Because in that forensic view of justification, the idea is that one is in a right relationship by God solely on account of God's forensic declaration that I am in a right relationship with him, and of the imputed righteousness of Christ.
但即使在这个模式中，采用这个模式的人也相信我们内在的圣洁是 一个过程，我们必须在进入天堂之前，在此生结束时使之完全。 But even in that model, those who adopt that model believe that our interior holiness is a process that we must grow in and bring to completion by the end of this life before entrance into heaven.
所以即使是相信法庭式称义模式的人也可以接受这 种理解或炼狱的这个方面，即必须有一些... So even someone who believes in the forensic view of justification model can still adopt this understanding or this aspect of purgatory where there's got to be some...
在进入天堂之前完成成圣的过程。 completion of the process of sanctification before entrance into heaven.
但这里有一个新教可能对这种推理的反驳。 But here's one possible Protestant pushback to that line of reasoning as it stands.
也就是说，他们可能否认在进入天堂之前需要死后完成这种成圣。 Namely, they could deny that there's going to be a postmortem completion of that sanctification before entrance into heaven.
因为他们完全可以说，成圣是在死亡之前，在死亡的那一刻完成的 ，这样一旦死亡在形而上学上发生，实际上灵魂就立即进入天堂。 Because they could very well just say, well, the sanctification is brought to completion before death, at the moment of death, such that once death metaphysically occurs, in reality, the soul goes immediately into heaven.
所以这种推理并不需要死后状态。 So this line of reasoning doesn't require a postmortem state.
它仍然可以使用，但在死亡时刻停止并完成成圣，这样就不需要死后完成成圣的过程。 it could be still used, but stop and bring the sanctification to completion at the moment of death, such that there would be no post-mortem completion of the process of sanctification.
所以这就是仅仅依赖这种推理的一个问题。 So that would be one hang-up with simply appealing to that line of reasoning.
当然，这会引出一个合理的问题，作为对可能用这种推理反驳的新教徒 的回应，我在书中也讨论了这一点，为什么成圣要在死亡时刻完成？ And of course, that would bring up a legitimate question of why, in response to the Protestant who might push back with that line of reasoning, and I address this in my book, Why is it that there is a completion of the sanctification at the moment of death?
为什么不是在之前？ Why not before?
说成圣都会在死亡时刻完成，这似乎有点武断。 There seems to be a bit of an arbitrary standard to say that, oh, well, it's all going to be brought to completion at the moment of death.
没有死后的事。 No postmortem stuff.
这似乎有点武断。 And that seems to be a bit arbitrary.
那为什么不是在之前？ Why then not before?
为什么不更早？ Why not earlier?
而从公教的观点或任何接受这种炼狱理解的基督徒来看，他们可以简单地采取更自 然的立场说，好吧，如果达到完全圣洁的成圣过程在死亡时刻没有完成，那么它就 会在来世完成，这是一种更合理的方法，而不是武断地断言所有的成圣都会在死亡 时刻完成。你如何证明这一点？有什么圣经原则可以证明这一点？所以讨论必须转 向这个方向，他们必须承担举证责任来为这个论点辩护，即所有的成圣都在死亡时 完成。相比之下，我们只是在说，嘿，是的，我们认识到这需要被完成。 Whereas from the Catholic viewpoint or any Christian who adopts this understanding of purgatory, they can simply take the more natural position and say, well, if the process of sanctification of being brought to perfect holiness is not completed at the moment of death well then it's going to be completed in the afterlife and that's sort of a more reasonable approach as opposed to the arbitrary standard of just asserting well all sanctification will be brought to completion at the moment of death well how do you justify that what's the biblical principles that could justify that and so the discussion would have to go there and they would have to shoulder that burden of proof in order to defend that thesis that all sanctification is brought to completion at death as opposed to us are saying, hey, yeah, we recognize it's going to need to be brought to completion.
如果不是在死亡时，那么就是在我们称之为炼狱的死后状态中。 And if it's not at death, well, then in this postmortem state that we call purgatory.
现在，这当然就引出了一个问题，我们说成圣的完成是什么意思？ Now, that, of course, brings us to the question of, well, what do we mean by the completion of sanctification?
我们说变得完全是什么意思？ What do we mean by being made perfect?
对于我们许多新教朋友来说，比如刘易斯和其他人，还有杰里·沃尔斯。 For many of our Protestant friends, like C.S. Lewis and others, and like Jerry Walls.
我说对他的名字了吗？ Am I getting his name right?
是的，杰里·沃尔斯，以及转变和炼狱的逻辑。 Yeah, Jerry Walls, and the logic of transformation and purgatory.
我有点想不起来了。 He's kind of slipping me.
自从我写这本书已经有一段时间了。 It's been a while since I wrote the book.
那是2020年的事了，距今四年了。 It's been 2020, four years from now.
但杰里·沃尔斯主张这种对炼狱的理解，即它仅仅是成圣过程的完成，对吧？ But Jerry Walls argues for this understanding of purgatory, where it's merely a completion of the sanctifying process, right?
但是他和刘易斯，如果我没记错的话，他们否认成圣过程的这个方面，即暂时惩 罚的债务，今世惩罚的债务，这是公教会炼狱教义教导中不可分割的一部分。 But He denies, as well as C.S. Lewis, if my memory serves me correctly, they deny this aspect of that sanctifying process, namely the debt of temporary punishment, the debt of temporal punishment, which is part and parcel of Catholic teaching about the doctrine of purgatory.
所以这个使成圣完成，这是类属，对吧？ So this bringing to completion sanctification, that's the genus, right?
这是一般的概念，但随后分歧就会出现在我们如何解 析它，以及什么构成了那种完全，那种成圣的完成。 That's sort of the general idea of But then the disagreements will come as to how we parse that out and what constitutes that being made perfect, that completion of sanctification.
对我们公教徒来说，我们会说，如果还有任何小罪的罪责残留，就必须被净化。 For us as Catholics, we're going to say, well, if there's any remaining guilt of venial sin, got to be purified.
我认为我们大多数新教朋友会同意这一点，至少那些接受这 种教义理解的人会同意，至少同意炼狱教义的某些方面。 And I think most of our Protestant friends would agree with that, at least those who would accept this understanding of the doctrine, at least some aspects of the doctrine of purgatory.
其次，当我们以无序的方式在罪中追求受造物的善 时，灵魂中产生和形成的对受造物不健康的依恋。 Secondly, unhealthy attachments to creaturely goods that are incurred and created within the soul whenever we pursue creaturely goods in a disordered way in sin.
这会造成不健康的依恋。 It creates unhealthy attachments.
这些东西在我们进入天堂之前必须得到纠正。 That stuff's got to get rectified before we get into heaven.
我认为大多数接受某种版本炼狱教义的新教徒会同意这一点。 And I think most Protestants who adopt some version of the doctrine of purgatory will assent to that and agree with us on that.
所以是的，如果在死亡时刻没有完全清除或重新调整，这些就必须被净化。 So yeah, that's going to have to be purified if it's not entirely purged or reordered at the moment of death.
但分歧出现在公教会对已被宽恕的过去罪过所欠今世惩罚债务的理解上。 But where the disagreement comes is the Catholic understanding of a debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sins.
这就是分歧所在。 And that's where the disagreements come in.
因为我们的新教朋友认为这种暂时惩罚债务的观念削弱了 、夺走了、抢走了耶稣十字架上的死的充足性的荣耀。 Because our Protestant friends view this idea of a debt of temporary punishment as undermining, taking away, robbing the glory of the sufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross.
所以这是一个重大的争议问题。 And so that's a big issue of debate.
这是一个我们需要进行的对话。 and a conversation that we need to have.
我要论证，正如我在书中所做的，我认为我们可以帮助我们的新 教朋友克服这个障碍，让他们看到对已被宽恕的过去罪过所欠的 今世惩罚债务，首先，绝不会削弱耶稣十字架上的死的荣耀。 And I would argue, as I do in my book, that I think we can help our Protestant friends overcome that hurdle and overcome that obstacle to see that debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sins, number one, in no way takes away from the glory of Jesus' death on the cross.
这并不意味着耶稣十字架上的死不够充分，我们实际上有圣经原则可以证明 对已被宽恕的过去罪过所欠今世惩罚债务的观念，如果这个债务在今生结束 时没有完全清偿，就必须在来世进入天堂之前清偿，因为你不仅不能带着罪 进入天堂，也不能带着因罪而欠的惩罚债务进入天堂，这就是公教会的立场 ，与那些可能接受某种版本的炼狱但否认炼狱教义这一方面的新教徒不同。 It does not imply the insufficiency of Jesus's death on the cross and we actually have biblical principles that can justify the idea of a debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sin and if that debt is not entirely discharged by the end of this life it's got to be discharged in the next before entrance into heaven because not only can you not have sin in heaven but you can't have the debt of punishment due for sin in heaven either and so that would be the Catholic position as opposed to those Protestants who might adopt some version of purgatory but deny this aspect of the doctrine of purgatory.
当然，是的。 For sure, yes.
我认为很多新教徒，特别是从历史上看，我有一些来自《基督教要义》和路德 的引文，你在这本书中也包含了一些，如果你读它们的话会发现非常尖锐。 I think a lot of Protestants, especially historically, I have a few quotations from the Institutes and Martin Luther, you included some in this book as well, that are very spicy if you read them.
我稍后会提到这一点，但我确实认为他们会抓住这个 今世债务的概念，小罪的赦免，诸如此类的事情。 I'll bring this up in a second, but I do think they'll latch on to this concept of temporal debts the forgiveness of venial sins, such stuff like that.
他们会说，是的，这肯定会使十字架失效，这是亵渎，你知 道，这是亵渎基督的受难和他应用在我们身上的满足功德。 And they'll say, yes, this definitely, this nullifies the cross and this blasphemes, you know, Christ's passion and his satisfactory merit applied to us.
这就是为什么他们以公教徒不会采用的方式区分称义和成圣。 我认为在我们继续讨论其他事情之前，最好先谈谈这一点。 And this is why they make the distinction between justification and sanctification in a way that Catholics wouldn't. And I think it might be good to touch on this before we go on to some of these other things.
你知道，新教徒会说，看，我们的称义在于基督的义在法律上注入我们的账户。 You know, Protestants will say, look, our justification consists in Christ's righteousness legally infused into our account.
这对我们来说是外在的。 It's extrinsic to us.
这不是我们可以增长或减少的东西。 It's not something that we can grow or diminish.
这不是我们可以影响的东西。 It's not something that we can affect.
这是外在的。 It's extrinsic.
用路德的话说，这是外来的。 It's alien in the words of Luther.
这是一个外来的义。 It's an alien righteousness.
这就是神审判我们的依据。 And so that's what God judges us based off of.
他看着基督。 He looks at Christ.
他好像在说，看，你是基于基督的义而称义的，而我们所 拥有的圣洁或我们所经历的成圣则是那种内在的符合。 And he's like, look, you are righteous on the basis of Christ's righteousness, whereas the holiness that we have or the sanctification that we go through is that internal conformity.
内在的义。 Interior righteousness.
是的，内在的义，对吧？ Yeah, interior righteousness, right?
是的，那个... Yeah, the...
在神面前，在世界面前，这有很多不同的表达方式。 Coram Deo, Coram Muda, there's a lot of different ways that it has been expressed.
那么你会，我想我们能在多大程度上向新教徒让步？ And so would you, how much of this would we concede to Protestants, I suppose?
圣洁和公义之间真的有区别吗？ Is there really a difference between holiness, righteousness?
我们能说我们没有进入天堂所需的义，还是我们只能说我们没有进入天堂所需的圣洁？ Can we say we don't have the righteousness necessary to go into heaven, or would we only say we don't have holiness necessary to go to heaven?
你认为在这里有什么区别可以帮助解释给新教徒听吗？ Is there a distinction there that you think would be helpful to explain to Protestants?
所以如果一个新教徒... So if a Protestant...
按照这些思路质疑我们对炼狱的理解，我会反驳说我们完全理解错了， 因为那种推理与灵魂在这最后净化中的成圣完成无关，正是因为选民的 这最后净化与他们是否被拣选无关，因为他们已经是选民的一部分了。 challenges our understanding of purgatory along those lines, I would push back and say we're just missing the mark, because that sort of line of reasoning is irrelevant to the completion of the sanctification of the soul in this final purification, precisely because that final purification of the elect has no bearing on whether they are elect, because they're already a part of the elect.
他们已经得救了。 They're already saved.
所以无论你采用哪种救恩模式，无论是法庭式称义观还是内在称义观，即神通过 使人成圣的恩典在我们里面产生的内在的义是我与神和好并因此称义的基础，无 论你采用哪种观点，你仍然可以接受在进入天堂之前的死后状态中完成成圣。 So regardless of which model of salvation you have, whether the forensic view of justification or the interior view of justification, where our interior righteousness that God brings about through sanctifying grace is the ground for me being at peace with God and thereby justified, regardless of which view you have, you still can adopt the completion of sanctification in this post-mortem state of existence prior to entering into heaven.
它适用于这两种模式，所以我要说，因为这最后的净化与我是否称义无关。 it fits with either of the two models, so I would argue, because this final purification has no bearing on whether or not I'm justified.
所以问题是，我们如何称义？ So the question is, how are we justified?
但这与那些已经称义之人的最后净化是一个不同的问题。 But that is a separate question to this final purification of those who are already justified.
你明白吗？ You see?
所以我想我可以这样说。 So I guess I can say it like this.
选民的最后净化已经预设了一个人是称义的。 The final purification of the elect presupposes already that one is justified.
一个人如何称义是一个更进一步的前提，是公教徒和一些新教徒可以辩论的更基本的问题。 How one is justified is a further preamble, is a further preliminary question that Catholics and some Protestants can debate.
但我们都假设他们是称义的，无论他们是如何称义的。 But we're all assuming that they are justified, regardless of how they're justified.
而这内在的义要被带到完全。 And this interior righteousness is brought to completion.
现在，如果我们要转换话题，讨论我们作为公教徒如何看待称义这个救恩论的问题。 Now, if we're going to shift gears, and address the soteriological question of how we as Catholics view justification.
好吧，这是一个我们可以考虑和思考的问题，但要注意，这与那些在与耶稣的 友谊中死去的人是否有死后最后净化的状态这个问题并不一定有直接关系，也 与这种死后最后净化是否削弱耶稣十字架上的死的充足性没有直接关系。 Well, that's a question that we could entertain and think through, but just note that it's not necessarily relevant in a direct way to the question of whether there is a post-mortem state of final purification for those who die in friendship with Jesus, and nor is it directly related to whether or not this post-mortem final purification undermines the sufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross.
现在，你提出了这个问题，让我简单回答一下，对我们公教徒来说，我们看 待称义，就是与神作为我们超性目标的正确关系，其中理智和意志以他为我 们的真福，作为我们的超性目标，我们与神的和平，是基于、植根于、以内 在的义为基础，这成圣是神通过使人成圣的恩典在我们内心成就的。 Now, you had asked the question, just to answer it very briefly, for us as Catholics, we view our justification, which is the rightly ordered relationship to God as our supernatural end, where the intellect and the will is ordered to him as our beatitude, as our supernatural end, our peace with God, is on account of, rooted in, has the ground for the interior righteousness, sanctification, that God brings about within us by sanctifying grace.
它是外来的，因为是神在成就这一切。 It's alien insofar as it's God who's bringing it about.
我们最初不能靠自己达到那种内在的义的状态。 We do not achieve that state of interior righteousness initially on our own.
特伦特大公会议无误地定义说，我们所做的任何工作都不能带来那种内在的称义状态。 No work that we can do, the Council of Trent infallibly defined, can bring about that interior state of justification.
只有神通过白白的恩赐才能做到这一点。 Only God does that by a free gift.
我们在婴儿洗礼的信仰中表明这一点，我们相信那些不能做任何善工的婴儿， 神通过内在的转变使他们称义，使他们在他们的超性目标上正确地归向神。 And we manifest that, our belief in baptizing infants, where we believe that infants who cannot perform any sort of good work, we believe God justifies that infant by interiorly transforming them to make them rightly ordered to God at their supernatural end.
这就是我们对称义的看法。 So that's what we view as justification.
所以在公教会的观点中，称义和成圣是同义的。 So justification and sanctification are synonymous in the Catholic view.
因为与神和好或称义的基础是神所带来的内在成圣。 Because the ground of the being at peace with God or justification is the interior sanctification that God brings about.
现在，当然，这就引出了一个问题，这在某种程度上与炼狱有关。 Now, of course, that raises the question, which is in a way related to purgatory.
好吧，如果你说炼狱，你还没有完全称义，但他们仍然 是称义的，这似乎与法庭式称义观有张力或直接冲突。 Well, if you're saying purgatory, you're not perfectly righteous yet, but yet they're still justified, that seems to be a tension or a direct conflict with this forensic view of justification.
我同意，确实如此。 And I agree, there is.
但在公教会的观点中，我们有一个预设的神学理解，即罪有不同程度，因此一个人可 以是义的和称义的，即使从内在来说，灵魂及其理智和意志的能力都正确地归向神作 为超性目标，但仍然可能有一些灵魂之光的玷污，正如圣托马斯阿奎那所说的，圣洁 之光，使我们因为我们所说的小罪而在某种程度上缺乏那荣耀，缺乏那荣耀之光。 But on the Catholic view, we have a presupposed theological understanding of the different degrees of sin, such that one can be righteous and justified, even interiorly speaking, where interiorly the soul with its powers of intellect and will are rightly ordered to God as the supernatural end, but yet still have some defilement of the light of the soul, as St. Thomas Aquinas would put it, the light of holiness, that causes us to lack in that glory, to lack in that light of glory to some degree due to what we call venial sin.
但是，只要理智和意志仍然正确地归向，以神为我们超性目标的秩序就得以保存。 But yet, the order to God as our supernatural end is preserved insofar as the intellect and the will is still rightly ordered.
所以，比如说，如果我也许看了三集Netflix节目或者 什么，或者亚马逊Prime，而我可能本应该只看两集。 So, for example, if I maybe watch three Netflix shows episodes of a show or something, or Amazon Prime, when I probably should have only watched two.
看第三集的这种放纵，并不是一个会使我远离神以至于神不再是我超性目标的行为。 That third indulgence of that third episode, it's not an action that would turn me away from God such that God is no longer my supernatural end.
我们称那种为致死的罪。 We would call that mortal sin.
相反，即使神仍然是我的超性目标，我仍然在某种程度上从那荣耀和完全的光中堕落了。 But rather, even though God is still my supernatural end, I still have fallen from that light of glory and perfection to some degree.
所以确实，这种将称义等同于内在成圣的理解，小罪和致死的罪的概念确实发挥作用，帮助 我们看到我们如何能因着神在我们里面带来的内在的义而仍然称义，但却还不完全公义。 And so it is true that this understanding of justification being equated with interior sanctification, the idea of venial sin and mortal sin does come into play to have a bearing to see how we can still be justified on account of the interior righteousness that God brings about within us, but yet not perfectly righteous.
所以这确实需要... And so it does require...
悔改，以及神赦免我们小罪的罪责，即使它是小罪，为了使我们完全公义。 repentance, and God forgiving us of the guilt of the venial sin, even though it is venial, in order for us to be perfectly righteous.
对的。 Right.
是的，我认为这是一个很好的过渡，可以谈谈炼狱教义的圣经依据。 Yeah, and I think that's a good segue into talking about sort of the biblical justification for the doctrine of purgatory.
实际上，也许在那之前，我们可以... Actually, maybe before that, we could...
让我读一下这些来自加尔文的引文，然后是路德的一段简 短引文，因为我认为这将为我们接下来的讨论定下基调。 Let me read these quotations from John Calvin and then a short one from Martin Luther because I think that will kind of frame the rest of this discussion.
他们在《基督教要义》中有这些指控，我忘记具体在哪里了。 They have these accusations in the Institutes, and I forget where.
我有这本记录路德言论的书。 I have this book of what Luther says.
我相信你听说过。 I'm sure you've heard of it.
这是一本汇编，系统整理了路德在具体主题上的所有言论。 It's a compilation and it's systematizing of all of what Luther says on specific topics.
好的。 Okay.
总之，他们对炼狱有这些指控，他们说如果人们用圣经来为它辩护或 者我想是为它辩护，这显然是我们很快就要做的事情，但他们说这是 被发明或构建出来的，作为一种理解人们所经历的这些异象的方式。 Anyways, they have these accusations about purgatory, and they say it is – if people justify it or I suppose defend it with recourse to the Bible, which we're obviously going to do here pretty soon, But they say it was invented or constructed as a way of kind of understanding these visions that people have had.
人们就抓住这个不放。 And people latch on.
我知道你在这本书的结尾讨论了一些人的异象。 I know you address the visions at the end from a few people at the end of this book.
他们说，哦，这些人得到的是撒但的异象。 They say, oh, there's these satanic visions that were given to these people.
这就是炼狱教义的来源。 And that's where the Doctrine of Purgatory came up.
他们就抓住了这一点。 And they latched onto that.
然后他们想出了这个大赦的教义，借此他们可以用人们的钱来 填满他们的金库和口袋，通过拿走人们的一切来虐待人们。 And then they came up with this doctrine of indulgences, whereby they could fill their coffers and their pockets with people's money and abuse people by taking everything from them.
所以我想我最好在我们讨论这些指控之前读一下这些引文，这是加尔文说的。 And so I guess I better read these quotations before we go off on these accusations, but this is what John Calvin said.
我记不清你是从这段引文还是从另一段引用的，但他说... I can't remember if you pulled from this quotation or from a different one, but he says...
炼狱是由许多亵渎构建而成的，每天都有新的亵渎来支撑它，既然它引发了许 多严重的冒犯，这肯定不能视而不见，人们可能一度以某种方式掩盖这样一个 事实：它是在脱离神的道的情况下设计出来的，出于好奇和大胆的鲁莽，人们 因撒但的诡计所伪造的某种启示而相信它，一些经文被无知地曲解来证实它。 Purgatory is constructed out of many blasphemies, and daily is propped up with new ones, and since it incites to many grave offenses that it's certainly not to be winked at, one could for a time, perhaps in a way, conceal the fact that it was devised apart from God's word, in curious and bold rashness, that men believed in it by some sort of revelations forged by Satan's craft, that some passages of scripture were ignorantly distorted to confirm it.
炼狱是撒但的致命驱逐，它使基督的十字架失效，对神的怜 悯施加难以忍受的蔑视，颠覆和摧毁我们的信仰，等等。 Purgatory is a deadly eviction of Satan, which nullifies the cross of Christ, inflicts unbearable contempt upon God's mercy, and overturns and destroys our faith, and so on and so forth.
路德基本上说了同样的话，说圣经没有提到炼狱。 And Martin Luther says basically the same thing, saying, Holy Writ, Scripture, doesn't mention purgatory.
这反而是魔鬼的捏造。 It is rather a fabrication of the devil.
这样教皇党就可以有某些市场和金钱陷阱，对吧？ That the Papists may have certain marketplaces and money snares, right?
所以你大致明白这些引文的要点。 And so you kind of get the gist of these quotations.
他们有这种想法，你知道，诚然，在这个时期确实存在一些大赦的滥用。 They have this idea, which, you know, granted, there were certain abuses of indulgences in this time period.
所以，你知道，你明白他们认为大赦和炼狱，那是一种编造。 So, you know, you get the idea that they think indulgences and purgatory, that was kind of made up.
是魔鬼促使的，给出这些所谓的启示。 prompted by the devil, giving these sort of revelations.
当有人可能在《基督教要义》中读到这些并说，哦，公教徒在 这件事上被欺骗了几个世纪时，你对这些指控有什么要说的？ What do you have to say to those accusations when someone might read that in the Institute and say, oh, wow, Catholics have been deceived about this for centuries.
你知道，撒但某种程度上渗透进来了。 Satan, you know, kind of infiltrated.
对，是的，这里有很多内容。 Right, yeah, so there's a lot here.
所以在你读的加尔文的那段引文中，我想如果我没记错的话，我基本上 可以识别出五个指控，也可能是四个，因为五个中的两个有些相关。 So in that quotation from Calvin that you read, there's about, I think if my memory serves me correctly, I can identify basically five accusations there, maybe four, because two of the five kind of go together.
所以第一，他说这是在神的道之外设计出来的，与神的道分离的东西。 So number one, he said this is something that is devised outside of and apart from, separated from God's word.
然后一个相关的指控是基于错误的解经。 And then a related charge there was based on bad exegesis.
好吧，这是一个说法。 Well, that's a claim.
这个说法是，炼狱教义不合圣经。 The claim is, is that the doctrine of purgatory is not biblical.
而每当公教徒引用经文来证明它合乎圣经时，他们的解经就是错的。 And whenever a Catholic appeals to a passage to prove that it's biblical, Their exegesis is wrong.
好吧，这是争论的主题。 Okay, well, that's the subject of debate.
这就是问题所在。 That's the question.
炼狱合乎圣经吗？ Is purgatory biblical?
公教徒有他们的经文依据。 Catholics have their passages.
所以下一个问题是，他们的解经正确吗？ So the next question is, is their exegesis correct?
所以当新教徒指控炼狱不合圣经时，他们只是在对那 些用圣经文本来证明炼狱教义的公教徒预设立场。 So for a Protestant to charge purgatory is not biblical, they're just begging the question against the Catholic who has appeals to biblical text in order to justify the doctrine of purgatory from sacred scriptures.
所以这至少为我们指明了一条探究的路径，来应对炼狱不合圣经这个特定的挑战。 So that would at least chart the path of inquiry to meet that particular challenge that purgatory is not biblical.
它是在神的道之外设计的。 It's devised apart from God's word.
现在，加尔文提出的另一个指控是，炼狱是基于这些 神秘主义者所得到的启示，这是撒但自己的作为。 Now, another charge that Calvin made was that purgatory is based upon these revelations given these revelations from mystics, which is the working of Satan himself.
好的，这是一个指控，说所有这些圣徒遇到的神秘启示。 OK, that's a charge that all of these mystical revelations where saints have encounters.
与那些告诉他们自己在炼狱中的分离的灵魂相遇，描述他们的苦 难，然后其他圣徒看见或梦见在炼狱中的亲人的异象，他们为之 祈祷，然后他们又做了另一个梦，梦见那个亲人不再在炼狱中。 with separated souls who tell them that they are in purgatory, describe their suffering, and then other saints who have visions or dreams of loved ones in purgatory, and they offer prayers, and then they have another dream that that loved one is no longer in purgatory.
所以这里加尔文的指控是，这是撒但的作为。 So the charge here by Calvin is that this is the effect of Satan.
所以这是一个我们必须处理的说法，这至少引发了探究。 And so that is a claim that we would have to address, that at least charged the inquiry.
这些是撒但的作为吗？ Are these the workings of Satan?
现在，在探究这个问题时我们必须问的某些问题是，首先，这有可能是撒但的作为吗？ Now, certain questions that we would have to ask in inquiring that is, first of all, is it possible for this to be the working of Satan?
好吧，当然是可能的。 Well, sure it is possible.
那么我们就要问这个问题，好吧，考虑到这些神秘主义者和圣 徒的宗教历史背景，以及他们对耶稣基督的爱，他们对耶稣基 督的深厚之爱会让我们现代的基督徒都感到惊讶，这可能吗？ So then we have to ask the question, well, is it probable, given the religious historical context of these mystics and saints and their love for Jesus Christ and their deep love for Jesus Christ that would blow away any of us modern day Christians, right?
对于那些曾经遇到过魔鬼的神秘主义者来说，得出这些是魔鬼作为的欺骗的结论合理吗？ Is it reasonable to conclude that these are deceptions in the working of the devil for those mystics who've had encounters with the devil before?
所以考虑到这些问题，我们会论证并得出结论，考虑到这些神秘主义者的宗教历史背 景和他们的生活，我们有充分的理由认为那些启示确实是合法的，而不是来自撒但。 So given those questions, we would argue and conclude that given the religious historical context of these mystics and their lives, we would have good reason to conclude that those revelations are indeed legit and not from Satan.
这类似于新教的反驳，说圣餐奇迹只是撒但的欺骗，对吧？ This is similar to the Protestant counter that, well, Eucharistic miracles are just deceptions of Satan, right?
所以同样的探究方式，这种探究路线也可以用来应对那种挑战。 So the same sort of inquiry, the line of inquiry would be employed to address that sort of challenge as well.
所以这是第二个挑战，炼狱中灵魂的启示或魔鬼的作为。 So that's challenge number two, revelations of souls in purgatory or the working of the devil.
所以我们已经为此规划出了一条探究的路径。 And so we've charted out a path of inquiry there.
第三个挑战或说法是炼狱教义使基督的十字架失效。 A third challenge there or claim was that the doctrine of purgatory nullifies the cross of Christ.
现在，布雷登，简单回应一下，炼狱教义会使基督的十字架失效。 Now, very briefly here in response, Brayden, the doctrine of purgatory would nullify the cross of Christ.
当且仅当我们主张这个教义，炼狱的现实，是因为我们认为 耶稣在十字架上的死在能力上不足以处理所有罪的残余。 If and only if we asserted the doctrine, the reality of purgatory, because we thought Jesus' death on the cross was insufficient in power to take care of all remnants of sin.
但我们并不相信耶稣在十字架上的死在能力上不足以除去所有罪的残余。 But we do not believe that Jesus' death on the cross is insufficient in power to take away all the remnants of sin.
因此，我们可以得出结论，这个现实，我们对炼狱的信 仰，并不会导致或否定耶稣在十字架上的死的充足性。 And so therefore, we can conclude that the reality, our belief in purgatory, would not entail or nullify the sufficiency of Jesus' death on the cross.
而那里第二个前提的原因，实际上是第一个前提的原因，我们否定第一个 前提的原因，或者实际上我们否定第一个前提的结果的原因是因为我们相 信，根据神所启示的圣经数据，在神的护理秩序中，耶稣愿意根据基督徒 生命的旅程以不同的方式和不同的程度应用他在十字架上的死的功德。 And the reason for premise two there, well, actually for premise one, the reason why we would deny premise one, or actually the reason why we're denying the consequent of that first premise there is because we believe, given the biblical data that God has revealed in order of providence in which Jesus wills to apply the merits of his death on the cross in different ways and different degrees based upon the journey in the Christian life.
所以，例如，我们相信基督在十字架上的死的功德在称义之初就完全应用在一个人身上，在 称义的初始阶段，当一个人从亚当的儿子内在地转变为神的儿子，并最初得救或称义时。 So, for example, we believe that Christ's merits of his death on the cross is applied fully to a person initially in justification, the initial stage of justification, when somebody is transformed from a son of Adam to a son of God interiorly and is initially saved or justified.
我们会说通常通过洗礼，所有罪的残余完全消除，无论是罪责 还是应得的惩罚，无论是永恒的还是暂时的，都完全清除了。 and we would say ordinarily through baptism, all remnants of sin completely gone, both the guilt and due punishment, whether eternal or temporal, entirely done.
那么问题就变成了，在这个护理的秩序中，对于那个得救的个别基督徒在最 初称义之后犯罪时，神对耶稣在十字架上的死的功德的应用有什么旨意？ And so then the question becomes, in this order of providence, what has God willed with regard to the application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross for that saved individual Christian whenever he sins after initial justification?
他是否因为基督的死在十字架上最初的应用而自动免于承担任何罪的残余？ Is he just automatically free from the incurment of any remnants of sin on account of the application of Christ's death on the cross initially?
还是神的旨意是那个基督徒，那个称义的基督徒，在最初称义之后，在 犯罪的那一刻，仍会招致一些罪的残余，无论是罪责还是应得的惩罚？ Or did God will that that Christian, that justified Christian, would it still incur at the moment of the sin, after initial justification, some remnant of sin, whether guilt or due punishment?
根据圣经的启示，所以我在我的书中论证，是后者。 And according to the biblical revelation, so I argue in my book, it's the latter.
神已经定下了一个护理的秩序，在这个秩序中，一个最初称义的人，在那最初的称义之后 ，如果那个人犯罪，他们实际上在那一刻就招致罪的残余，无论是罪责还是应得的惩罚。 God has willed an order of providence in which one who is initially justified, subsequent to that initial justification, if that person sins, they actually incur at that moment remnants of sin, whether guilt or due punishment.
在我的书中，布雷登，我引用的一个例子是希伯来书12:5-6，作 者告诉我们神管教他的每一个儿子。正如我在书中指出的，那里希腊文 中的管教带有惩罚的含义，这意味着神的儿子有应受的惩罚的债。 And one example of this I appeal to in my book, Braden, is Hebrews 12, 5-6, where the author tells us that God chastises every son of his And as I point out in my book, the Greek there for chastisement has the connotation of punishment, which implies that there is a debt of punishment due to the Son of God.
所以注意，我们说的是神的儿子，一个合法称义的人，不受定罪，在基督 里，与神和好，然而这个神的儿子仍然可能因罪而招致一些应得的惩罚。 And so notice, we're talking about a Son of God, someone who is legitimately justified, not subject to condemnation, in Christ, at peace with God, and yet that Son of God can still incur some due punishment on account of sin.
新修订标准译本实际上把那个词翻译为惩罚，我觉得这真的很有趣。 the NRSV actually renders that word as punishment, which I thought was really interesting.
是的，这符合那里希腊文的含义。 Yeah, and that would fit with the Greek connotation there.
然后在第5和第6节中，你都能看到希腊文词语表示因做错事而施加的苦难。 And then it's in both verses 5 and 6, you have the Greek words there connoting the imposition of suffering on account of wrongdoing.
所以在这里我们看到显明，在这个护理的秩序中，神允许已经最初称义的人招致 罪的残余，而在他们悔改的那一刻，耶稣在十字架上的死的功德被应用来赦免这 个人并免除罪责，同时神也愿意个人承受某种不悦来偿还那暂时惩罚的债。 And so there we see revealed, in this order of providence, God wills to allow the incurment of the remnant of sin for someone who's already initially justified, And at that moment when they repent, the merits of Jesus' death on the cross are applied to forgive the person and remit the guilt of sin, and also that God wills that the individual endure some sort of displeasure to discharge that debt of temporary punishment.
这就是为什么圣经说神管教。 And this is why the Bible says God chastises.
他因着过错而对神的儿女施加一些应得的不悦。 He's imposing some displeasure upon the child of God that is due to him on account of the wrongdoing.
所以公教会的论点是，我们在这里看到，神对一个最初称义的人，即 重生的基督徒，神的儿女施加苦难，并不会使基督的十字架失效。 And so the Catholic argument is that we see here that the imposition by God of suffering on somebody who is initially justified, namely a born-again Christian, a child of God, does not nullify the cross of Christ.
我的意思是，如果受神默示的希伯来书作者不认为对已经称义的神的儿女 施加苦难会使基督的十字架失效，那么我们作为公教徒说这就是在炼狱状 态中发生和完成的，而且不会使基督的十字架失效，这肯定是安全的。 I mean, if the author of Hebrews inspired by God doesn't think the imposition of suffering for a child of God who's already justified nullifies the cross of Christ, well then surely we're safe as Catholics in saying that is what happens and is completed in the state of purgatory and it not nullify the cross of Christ.
最后，加尔文提出的最后一个指控，我说完这个就让你 来说，他提出的最后一个指控是它削弱了神的怜悯。 And then finally, the last charge that Calvin made, and I'll finish with this and let you jump in, the last charge he made was that it undermines God's mercy.
恰恰相反。 Au contraire.
所以我在我的书中论证，布雷登，看看这个。 So I argue in my book, Braden, check this out.
让我问你，神必须净化吗，神必须设立一个方式让他的儿女，就是那些死时不受定罪，但还 不够完全圣洁来进入真福境界的人得到净化吗，神必须设立一个方式来净化他的儿女吗？ Let me ask you, did God have to purify, did God have to set up a way by which a child of his who dies, not subject to condemnation, but yet not perfectly holy to enter into the beatific vision, did God have to set up a way by which his child is purified?
他在公义上有义务这样做吗？ Is he bound in justice to do that?
答案是不，他没有。 The answer is no, he's not.
神完全可以对自己和我们是良善和公义的，让他的 儿女死后不受定罪但又不够完全来进入真福境界。 God could have perfectly been good and just to himself and to us to leave us a child of his who dies not subject to condemnation but yet not perfect enough to enter into the beatific vision.
只让他们停留在死后某种自然幸福的存在状态中。 Just leave them in that post-mortem state of existence of some sort of natural blissfulness.
神不是必须净化，不是必须净化他的儿女。 God didn't have to purify, does not have to purify his children.
让他们进入真福境界，至少在这个护理的秩序中是这样。 for them to enter into the beatific vision, at least in this order of providence.
神可以定意一个护理的秩序，在其中他的儿女只是死去 ，不受定罪，但却不能进入天堂，他就这样引导他们。 God could have willed an order of providence where his children just die, not subject to condemnation, but yet can't enter into heaven, and he leads them as such.
那个护理的秩序，神已经定意了一个护理的秩序，在其中他的儿 女死后因着与基督的友谊而不受定罪，但还不够完全圣洁来进入 天堂，神已经定意要净化他们，洁净他们，使他们能与他联合。 That disorder of providence, that God has willed an order of providence in which his children who die and are not subject to condemnation due to their friendship with Christ, but yet not perfectly holy enough to enter into heaven, God has willed to purify them, to purge them, so that they can be united to him.
那是怜悯的彰显。 That That is a manifestation of mercy.
如果这都不是怜悯，那就没有什么是怜悯了。 If that ain't mercy, nothing is mercy.
因为神并不欠我们这种净化。 Because God did not owe that purification to us.
他通过创造这个包含净化的护理秩序，完全自由地赐予这一切。 He gives it completely freely by creating this order of providence in which this purification is involved.
是的，是的，这很好。 Yeah, yeah, that's good.
是的，所以听起来加尔文和路德的指控，就是说这个炼狱教义 只是编造的，你知道，因为有一些零散的启示，然后，你知道 ，他们看圣经就像是，哦，我们能断章取义地支持这个什么？ Yeah, and so it sounds like the charges of Calvin and Luther that this, you know, Doctrine and Purgatory was just kind of made up, you know, because there was some sea cannon revelations and then, you know, they look to scripture and they're like, oh, what can we rip out of context to support this?
那个指控真的不准确。 That charge is really inaccurate.
我很想讨论一下，我想，我猜想，炼狱的基础， 就像我们很快就会相信炼狱教义的不同步骤。 And I'd love to go through the, I guess, I suppose, the foundations of purgatory, like the different steps by which we come to believe in the doctrine of purgatory very soon.
但在我们这样做之前，我认为重要的是要注意，这不仅有圣经先例，比如那些暗示 的，你怎么称呼它们，那些引导我们得出炼狱教义的默示原则，这些都在圣经中。 But before we do, I think it would be important to note that not only does this have biblical precedent, like the implied, what do you call them, the inspired principles by which we come to the doctrine of purgatory, those are in Scripture.
这需要一些解释，但它们确实在那里。 It takes a little bit of explication, but they're there.
不仅如此，在旧约犹太教中也有先例，甚至在其他宗教中也有先例。 But not only that, There are Old Testament Jewish precedents, and there's even precedents in other religions.
我觉得这很有趣。 I found that fascinating.
我以前从未听说过。 I'd never heard before.
我知道，你知道，《玛加伯下》。 I knew, you know, Second Maccabees.
我们可以谈谈这个。 We can talk about that.
但我从不知道在其他宗教体系中也有这种死后净化的概念。 But I never knew in other religious systems that there was this concept of a post-mortem sort of purification.
所以你能稍微谈谈这个吗？ So can you talk about that for a little bit?
因为我相信很多没有读过你的书的人甚至不知道这件事。 Because I'm sure a lot of people who might not have read your book don't even know that that's a thing.
当然。 Sure.
正如我在第一章的第一部分指出的，或者可能是第一章，我在那里 研究非基督教的宗教传统，比如印度教、佛教、琐罗亚斯德教，当 然还有希腊罗马的《高尔吉亚篇》和《埃涅阿斯纪》中的信仰。 So as I point out in the first section of chapter one, or maybe it's chapter one, where I look at non-Christian religious traditions, like for example Hinduism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, and then of course in the Greco-Roman belief of the Gorgias and the Aeneid.
当然，我们在那里看到的不是完整的炼狱教义。 And so what we have there is of course not the full-blown doctrine of purgatory.
而且你会发现其中混杂着错误。 And also what you're going to find is a mixture of errors.
但关于某种死后净化的一般概念，即今生的恶行和过错被纠 正和处理，这种观念渗透在这些非基督教的宗教传统中。 But with regard to the general idea of some sort of post-mortem purification where bad behavior, wrongdoing in this life is rectified and taken care of, that's permeating these non-Christian religious traditions.
而且我认为罗伯特·贝拉明论证说，你知道，当我们有这样一个普遍的 一般概念，渗透并贯穿全球各地的各种宗教传统时，这是一个很好的强 有力的迹象，表明这个概念，至少在其最一般的形式中，是真实的。 And I think Robert Bellarmine argues, you know, whenever we have such a universal general idea, permeating and running through these various religious traditions throughout the globe, throughout the planet, that's a good strong indication that this idea, at least in its most general form, is true.
这有点像对超越人类存在的超然实在的承认和信仰的一般概念。 It's kind of like the general idea of the acknowledgement and the belief in a transcendent reality beyond human beings.
这是我们在跨文化中发现的东西，我们在所有人类文明的所有宗教传统中都能找到，这给 了我们一个强有力的迹象，表明超越人类存在的超然实在这一一般概念很可能是真实的。 That is something we find cross-cultural, we find it in all religious traditions of all human civilizations, giving us a strong indication that that general idea of a transcendent reality over and above human beings is probably true.
对于今生过错的死后净化这一一般概念也是如此。 So too with this general idea of a post-mortem purification of wrongdoing in this life.
所以我指出，你知道，这只是一个简短的概述。 And so I point out, you know, it's just a brief survey.
你知道，我不是所有这些非基督教传统的专家，也不完全了解他们对 来世的具体信仰，但有足够的资料可以概述他们对这种死后净化的信 仰，至少可以表明，这种死后净化的概念不是公教会特有的东西。 You know, I'm not an expert in all of these non-Christian traditions and exactly what they believe about the afterlife, but there's enough out there to survey what they believe about this post-mortem purification to at least show, that this idea of the postmortem purification is not a particular Catholic thing.
这不仅仅是公教会的事。 It's not just a Catholic thing.
它超越了公教的界限。 It's beyond the boundaries of Catholicism.
当然，在第一章中，我研究了非公教的基督教传统，它 们也有一些要素，对吧，对炼狱有某种程度的理解。 And then, of course, in the chapter one, I look at non-Catholic Christian traditions that have some elements, right, some degrees of an understanding of purgatory.
所以正如我论证的，在东正教基督教内，也有某种对炼狱的理解。 So as I argue Within Orthodox Christianity, there is some understanding of purgatory.
他们相信在世信徒的祈祷可以帮助那些在来世的人，尽管一些 东正教基督徒会否认在死后状态中有任何形式的净化或苦难。 They believe that the prayers of the faithful here on earth can assist those in the afterlife, although some Orthodox Christians will deny any sort of purification or suffering in that postmortem state.
当然，这就会引发一系列问题。 And then, of course, that's going to raise a bunch of questions.
好吧，如果我们的祈祷帮助他们，如果他们没有 受苦或被净化，我们的祈祷在帮助他们什么？ Well, if our prayers assist them, what are they assisting them in if they are not suffering or being purified?
当然我们可以辩论和讨论这个，但有一些东正教基督徒确实承 认死后净化，承认我们在世的祈祷可以帮助他们并使之完成。 And of course we can debate that and talk about that, but there are some Orthodox Christians who affirm a post-mortem purification that our prayers here on earth can assist them with and bring to completion.
然后当然我们之前谈到关于新教的这一点。 And then of course we were talking about this earlier with regard to Protestantism.
有一些新教徒，包括路德本人，最初肯定炼狱教义，只是在15 37年后才否定它。所以我们在新教内部也有一些对炼狱教义的 理解，这再次让我们得出结论，炼狱不仅仅是公教会的事。 There are some Protestants, including Luther himself, who initially affirmed the doctrine of purgatory and only rejected it later in 1537. And so we have some understandings of the doctrine of purgatory within Protestantism, again, to lead us to the conclusion that purgatory is not just a Catholic thing.
所以想想这个，布雷登。 So think about this, Brayden.
那些否认炼狱教义的人，他们实际上是全人类中的少数，在基督教世界中也是少数。 Those who deny the doctrine of purgatory, they are actually in the minority of all human beings and also within the minority within Christendom.
在所有基督徒中。 among all Christians.
当然，这让否认炼狱的个人需要停下来问问自己，为什么大多数人类都相信这个观 念，但我的群体不信？为什么大多数基督教都相信这个观念，但我的群体，我的基 督教宗派不信？所以这是一个值得问的好问题，至少让人停下来反思，如果你是唯 一不相信这个的群体，那么你需要想想，除非你比所有人都聪明，否则很可能是你 错了而其他人是对的。我不会说这是一个绝对的论证，因为也有可能你是对的，但 至少这给了你一个概率性的理由，让你认为你很可能是错的而其他人是对的。 And that, of course, gives rise for the individual who's rejecting purgatory to pause and ask themselves, why is it that the majority of humanity believes in this idea, but my community doesn't? Why is it that the majority of Christianity believes in this idea, but my community, my Christian denomination doesn't? And so that's a good question to ask, and at least gives one pause for reflection, that if you're the only group not believing in this, man, then you need to do you're just smarter than everyone that it's probably the case that you're wrong and everybody else is right i'm not going to say that's a rock-solid argument because there is a room there that you are right but at least you're on the trajectory to give probabilistic reason to think that you may very well be wrong and everybody else is right yeah for sure So, yeah, I found that section of your book, it's the very beginning, but I found it very fascinating for sure.
我想现在很有益处，我觉得，来逐步讲解你在书中使用的推理过程。 And I think now it would be very beneficial, I suppose, to kind of go through each step of the reasoning that you use in the book.
因为，你知道，你说的第一件事就是，你知道， 我们的永恒命运在我们死亡时就已经确定了。 Because, you know, the very first thing you say is, you know, our eternal destiny is sealed by the time that we die.
是哪段经文说的这个？ What's that passage that says that?
死后就是审判。 That after death comes the judgment.
希伯来书9:27。这是个别审判。 Hebrews 9.97. It's the particular judgment.
我们不会，你知道，这不是像我们之前谈到的什么第二次机会。 We're not going, you know, it's not some like second chance like we talked about earlier.
对。 Right.
是的。 Yeah.
所以灵魂的命运在个别审判时就已确定。 So the soul's destiny is secure at the particular judgment.
我们也可以引用路加福音第16章中的财主和拉撒路的故事。首 先，假设我们可以引用基督的比喻来教导我们关于来世的现实。 And we could also appeal to the rich man and Lazarus in Luke chapter 16. First, assuming that we can appeal to Christ's parables to teach us reality about the afterlife.
这是一些人争论的问题。 That's an issue of debate with some.
但假设我们可以引用基督的比喻来教导我们关于来世，那么财主和拉 撒路的比喻就会向我们表明，当我们死亡时，我们会立即受到审判。 But assuming that we can appeal to Christ's parables to teach us about the afterlife, well then the parable of the rich man and Lazarus would give us indication that whenever we die, we receive an immediate judgment.
财主当然去了一个受折磨的地方，我认为那就是地狱。 The rich man, of course, goes to a place of torment, which I argue is hell.
拉撒路去了亚伯拉罕的怀里。 Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom.
而且没有任何迹象表明他们会互换角色，对吧？ And there's no indication that they're ever going to reverse roles, right?
正如亚伯拉罕告诉财主自己的，那鸿沟是固定的。 As Abraham tells the rich man himself, the chasm is fixed.
所以灵魂的命运在那里就已经确定了。 So the destiny of the soul is sealed there.
所以这就是证明第一个原则的一个例子，灵魂的命运是固定的，好吗？ And so that would be one example to justify the first principle, the soul's destiny is fixed, okay?
这是一种几乎所有人，比如所有基督徒，都会承认的假设。 And that's sort of an assumption that pretty much everybody, like all Christians, will acknowledge.
但是，你知道，你在写书，所以你想要非常彻底地阐述事情，所以... But, you know, you're writing a book, so you want to flesh things out in a very thorough way, so...
那种原则在电梯演讲这样的场合是不必要的，对吧？ that sort of principle wouldn't be necessary in an elevator pitch kind of thing, right?
但我认为这很重要需要注意，因为，再说一次，很多人，你知 道，相信炼狱就像是第二次机会，你知道，你还有时间悔改。 But I think it's very important to note because, again, it's like a lot of people, you know, believe that purgatory is just like the second, you know, you have time to repent still.
你知道，你正在去地狱的路上。 You know, you're on your way to hell.
炼狱就像地狱之火。 Purgatory is like the fires of hell.
你可以从那里出来。 You can get out of there.
这是第二次机会。 It's a second chance.
我认为在你的书中注明这一点很重要，就是说，不，你的命运是已经确定的。 I think it's very important, you know, to note in your book, like, no, your destiny is sealed.
是的。 Yep.
所以不仅我们作为公教徒这样主张... So not only do we claim that as Catholics...
而且我们有关于这个问题的圣经教导。 But we have biblical teaching concerning that issue.
是的，当然。 Yeah, for sure.
是的，希伯来书第9章就是一个明显的证据，但很多人认为 ——或者有些人认为，哦，这个——我想是在路加福音里。 Yeah, and Hebrews 9 is like a dead giveaway, but a lot of people think it's – or some people think, oh, well, this – I think it's in Luke.
这是一系列的比喻。 It's this collection of parables.
就像，哦，拉撒路和财主。 It's like, oh, Lazarus and the rich man.
这显然——这不是——字面的，我们不能真的从 这段经文中得出任何末世论、救恩论的东西。 That's obviously – that's not something – Literal, we can't really draw out any eschatological, soteriological things from this passage.
但我认为值得注意的是，我不记得你在书中是否谈到这个，但 这是耶稣的比喻中，据说是唯一一次提到具体人名的时候。 But I think it's interesting to note, and I don't remember if you talk about this in your book, but that's one of the only times in one of Jesus' parables, supposedly, that a specific person is mentioned by name.
我甚至想不出基督的另一个比喻或教导时刻，其中以某人的名字作为例子来说明这一点。 I can't even think of another parable or another teaching moment of Christ where someone is mentioned by name as an example to draw this.
所以这为使用这段经文来描述个别审判提供了一些支持。 So that gives some support as to using this as a passage to describe the particular judgment.
因为，你知道，有些人就是这样，是的，不，你不会受到个别审判。 Because, you know, there's some people who are like, yeah, no, you're not particularly judged.
灵魂沉睡，你知道，我们上次谈论圣人代祷时讨论过这个。 Soul sleep, you know, we talked about that last time when we talked about the intercession of the saints.
所以，是的，我觉得那很有趣。 And so, yeah, I thought that was very interesting.
所以... And so...
我正要说，是的，我在评注中看到过关于这个比喻中提到拉撒路名字的讨论。 I was just going to say, yeah, I've come across that in commentaries concerning the naming of Lazarus in this parable.
但我认为即使为了讨论而假设这不是一个真实的人，你仍然可以达到同样的结论。 But I think you can still achieve the same end, even if you grant for argument's sake that this is not a real guy.
你仍然可以说，嘿，听着，你知道，如果我们能从基督在他的比喻中 使用的意象中提取关于今生的真理，比如富人、穷人、乞丐，对吧？ You can still argue that, hey, listen, you know, if we can extract real truths about this life from the images that Christ uses in his parable, Like rich men, poor men, beggars, right?
还有富人吃食物。 And wealthy people eating food.
我的意思是，这都是耶稣用来教导我们某些功课的生活的组成部分。 I mean, that's all part and parcel of this life that Jesus is drawing from to teach us certain lessons.
但那么肯定... But then surely...
我们可以假设并合理地得出结论，他用来描述来世的意象在某种意义上也是真实的， 用来教导我们关于来世的某些功课。因为如果我们说不能从关于来世的意象中得出关 于来世的真实结论，但却可以从今生的意象中得出关于今生的真实结论，那就是特殊 请求，这是一个武断的标准，我可以对今生的意象这样做，但对来世的意象却不行。 we can assume and reasonably conclude that the images that he's employing concerning the afterlife are to be taken in certain senses real as well to teach us certain lessons about the afterlife for if we say it is not we can't take the images about the afterlife to draw out real conclusions about the afterlife but yet we can look at the images when this life and draw real conclusions about this life in reality then that's just special pleading it's an arbitrary standard that I can do that for this, the images of this life, but not the images of the next life.
这只是糟糕的推理。 That's just bad reasoning.
但我认为最后的定论是希伯来书12章22至23节，作者说 当我们亲近神时，我们就是来到被成全之义人的灵魂那里。 But I think the nail in the coffin is Hebrews 12, 22 through 23, where the author says that whenever we approach God, we approach the spirits of just men made perfect.
在启示录6章9节中，是那些为耶稣作见证被杀之人的灵魂在祭坛底下。 In Revelation 6, 9, it's the souls of those who are slain for the testimony of Jesus under the altar.
他们在天堂。 They're in heaven.
他们已经被成全。 They're perfected.
他们已经得到了完美的命运。 They have received their destiny perfected.
所以我们可以利用这些经文，再次证明灵魂的命运在死亡时就已确定这一点。 And so we can utilize those passages to, again, prove this point of the soul's destiny being sealed upon death.
是的。 Yeah.
当然。 For sure.
所以灵魂的命运是确定的。 So soul's destiny is sealed.
你要么去天堂，要么去地狱。 You're either going to heaven or hell.
对。 Right.
我认为对这个讨论来说，下一个很重要的事情是，因为为了有这些你还 没有经历过的暂时的惩罚，就是你需要在炼狱中经历的，或者需要被赦 免的小罪，我们应该首先确定你实际上可以有这种暂时的罪责，对吧？ I think that the next thing that is very important for this discussion, because in order to have these temporal punishments that you haven't undergone, that you need to undergo in purgatory and or venial sin that needs forgiven, we should establish that you can actually have this temporal guilt due to you in the first place, right?
因为我们可以免除这种暂时的罪责。 Because we can discharge this temporal guilt.
我们在希伯来书12章中稍微谈到过这个。我还想提到，因为在新约和早期基督教文献的 标准希腊语词典中，这就是在我的浸信会大学学习希腊语时，他们说你需要买的东西。 And we talked about this a little bit in Hebrews 12. And I also want to bring up, because in the standard Greek lexicon for the New Testament, for early Christian literature and stuff like this, this is the thing that at my Baptist college when we were going through Greek, they said, you need to buy this.
大概150美元左右。 It's like $150 or something.
这就像是防御。 It's like defense.
希伯来书12章中使用的「管教」一词的主要用法是用鞭子或皮带抽打。 The primary usage of the word for chastisement that's used in Hebrews 12 is to beat with a whip or a latch or a flaw.
这是描述耶稣在柱子上被鞭打，在会堂里被打时使用的同一个词。 That's the same word that's used whenever Jesus is being scourged at the pillar, whenever he's being beaten in the synagogue.
我想这里实际上也用了这个词。 And it actually uses that down here, I think.
我记不清在哪里了，或者可能是另一个词，它在旧 约中的先例实际上是旧约中会堂审判中的惩罚。 I can't remember where it is, or it might be the other word, where it's the Old Testament precedent of that is actually the punishments undergone in the synagogue judgment in the Old Testament.
我觉得这很有趣，因为很多人就说，哦，是的，管 教，不一定与应得某种惩罚或应得某种罪有关。 I just thought that was interesting to me because a lot of people are just like, oh, yeah, well, discipline, that doesn't necessarily have to do with, you know, meriting some sort of punishment or meriting some sort of sin.
那么对于那些说，是的，也许这只是管教，你知道，但这不是与你应得的某 种暂时罪责一一对应，因为基督已经为我满足了一切的人，你会怎么说？ So what would you say to someone who's like, yeah, well, maybe it's just like this discipline, you know, but it's not like one-to-one correspondence with some sort of temporal guilt that you merit because Christ satisfied everything for me.
基督在十字架上，他满足了我所欠的每一种债。 Christ on the cross, he satisfied every single sort of debt that I'm owed.
是的，对此的回应是，这种说法本身就是对公教会立场的循环论证，因为 这种说法假设神在护理的秩序中已经定意，耶稣在十字架上的死亡处理了 所有的罪债，罪的惩罚债务，不仅是最初的，而且是贯穿基督徒余生的。 Yeah, so in response to that, that claim itself would just beg the question against the Catholic because that claim assumes that God has willed in order of providence that Jesus' death on the cross takes care of all debt of sin, debt of punishment for sin, not only initially, but throughout the rest of the Christian's life.
所以注意那个假设。 So notice that assumption there.
但这是一个我们要挑战的假设，我们要说，不，那个假设是错误的。 But that's an assumption that we're going to challenge and say, oh, no, that assumption is false.
根据希伯来书12章5至6节的圣经数据，我们还可以看其他经文，整本圣经中 的其他文本，我们认为神已经定意了一个护理的秩序，在这个秩序中，耶稣十字 架上的死的功德并不会在最初称义后自动应用于处理基督徒暂时惩罚的债务。 Given this biblical data of Hebrews 12, 5 through 6, and we can look at other passages as well, other texts throughout Sacred Scripture, We argue that God has willed an order of providence where it is not the case that the merits of Jesus' death on the cross are automatically applied to take care of the debt of temporal punishment for Christians after initial justification.
我们教导说我们相信耶稣十字架上的死的功德确实有应用，但不是 从一开始就自动应用，也不是在基督徒在世的余生中自动应用。 We teach that we believe that there is an application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross, but not automatically from the beginning and for the rest of the Christians' existence on earth.
而是耶稣十字架上的死的功德的应用是在承担罪的残余， 也就是过去已被赦免的罪所应得的暂时惩罚的债务之后。 but rather there is an application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross upon, consequent to, the incurment of the remnants of sin, namely the debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sin.
所以希伯来书12章5至6节，正如你指出的，希腊文词不仅暗示 遭受苦难，而且暗示因做错事而遭受苦难，这正是惩罚的本质。 And so Hebrews 12, 5 through 6, and as you pointed out, the Greek word suggesting not only an imposition of suffering, but an imposition of suffering on account of wrongdoing, which is just the essence of punishment.
这就是我们所说的惩罚的意思。 That's what we mean by punishment.
如果希伯来书的作者在圣灵的默示下向我们启示，神「惩罚」 ，对那些已经称义的人因他们的过错而施加苦难，那么按照《 威斯敏斯特信条》所说的必然良好的结果，这必然包含惩罚。 And if the author of Hebrews is revealing to us, inspired by the Holy Spirit, that God, quote unquote, punishes, inflicts suffering on account of wrongdoing for those who are already justified, well then that necessarily, the Westminster Confession, by good and necessary consequence, that necessarily entails punishment.
就是说，神的儿女因着自己的行为而有应受的惩罚债务，对吧？ that there is a debt of punishment due for that child of God on account of their own doing, right?
所以这就是圣父为了完全他的儿女而施行或参与的管教。 And so that's the discipline that God the Father imposes or engages in with regard to perfecting his children.
现在，确实，这种惩戒、管教或惩罚是为了他们在圣洁上的成长，这是绝对的。 Now, it is true that that chastisement, discipline, or punishment is ordered to their growth in holiness, absolutely.
但这并不改变有惩罚被施加的事实，这必然包含因过错而产生的惩罚债务。 But that doesn't take away from the fact that there is a punishment imposed, which necessarily entails a debt of that punishment on account of wrongdoing.
所以我们新教朋友的那种反对意见，归根结底，这只是对公教 会立场的循环论证，假定了一开始就是争论焦点的事情为真。 And so that sort of objection from our Protestant friend, again, the bottom line is that it would just beg the question against the Catholic, assuming something to be true that is the issue of debate in the first place.
是的。 Yeah.
这样如果你在受洗之后立即死亡，你就会直接进入天堂。 Such that if you were to die immediately subsequent to baptism, you would go straight into heaven.
是的。 Yeah.
是的，对，好问题，是的，所以我要首先指出，这不是因为相信耶稣在十字架上的 死在能力上不足以免除那在圣事中已被赦免的致死的罪所应得的暂时惩罚的债务。 yeah right good question yeah so again i would first point out this is not due to a belief that jesus's death on the cross is insufficient in power to remit even the debt of temporary punishment due for that mortal sin that's been forgiven in the sacrament.
我们宣认在圣事中致死的罪的罪责被赦免之后仍然存在暂时惩罚的债务，仅仅是 因为这是神所定意的护理秩序，是他要应用耶稣十字架上的死的功德的方式。 We profess that there is a debt of temporal punishment still remaining subsequent to having the guilt of mortal sin remitted in the sacrament only because this is the order of providence that God has willed in the way in which he's going to apply the merits of Jesus' death on the cross.
好的，所以一旦我们解决了这个问题，那么问题就来了，好吧，即使致死的 罪的罪责已被赦免，暂时惩罚的债务仍然存在，这背后的神学理由是什么？ Okay, so once we get that out the way, then the question arises, okay, well, what's the theological rationale behind the debt of temporal punishment still remaining even though the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted?
圣托马斯阿奎那在这里给了我们一些帮助。 And St. Thomas Aquinas gives us some help here.
在我的书中处理这些神学问题时，我都会求助于阿奎那。 And I appeal to Aquinas in my book whenever I'm dealing with these sorts of theological issues.
我认为答案，我认为阿奎那在这里是对的，就是每 次我们犯罪时，特别是致死的罪，甚至是小罪。 And I think the answer, and I think Aquinas is right here, is that every time we engage in sin, And especially in mortal sin, but even venial sin.
但让我们在这里就用致死的罪为例。 But let's just use mortal sin here.
我们追求某种受造之善，以至于那善取代了神成为我生命的终极目标。 We are pursuing some creaturely good in such a way that that good takes the place of God as my ultimate life's goal.
因此与神的秩序就被打破了。 And thereby the order to God is broken.
好的。 All right.
所以这就是我们所说的致死的罪。 So that's what we call a mortal sin.
现在，阿奎那要说，因为我们在这致死的罪的行为中完全背离了神。 Now, Aquinas is going to say, because we have turned away from God completely in this mortal sinful activity.
因此公正的惩罚就应该是永恒的。 it follows that a just punishment would be eternal.
所以永恒惩罚的债务是因为我背离神作为我生命的终极罪。 So the debt of eternal punishment is on account of me turning away from God as my ultimate life sin.
然而，在那致死的罪中，我也追求了一个受造之善，一个有限的善，一个暂时的善。 However, still in that mortal sin, I also pursued a creaturely good, a finite good, a temporal good.
所以我也应当承担暂时惩罚的债务，这是合适和公正的。 And so it's fitting and just that I would also incur a debt of temporary punishment.
因为我以不健康的方式追求某种有限的暂时的善，所以应当有一个有限期限的惩罚或不悦。 A finite duration of punishment or displeasure on account of me pursuing some finite temporal good in an unhealthy way.
所以我背离神，承担永恒惩罚的债务，因为他是我所拒绝的无限的善。 So I turn away from God, debt of eternal punishment, because he's the infinite good that I've rejected.
因为以无序的方式追求某种暂时的善而承担暂时惩罚的债务。 Debt of temporal punishment on account of pursuing some temporal good in a disordered way.
这就是阿奎那提供的神学理由，对我来说是有道理的，我认为这是 对的，这样当我们通过应用耶稣十字架上的死的功德，通常是在和 好圣事中，免除了永恒惩罚的债务时，暂时惩罚的债务仍然存在。 And so that's sort of the theological rationale that Aquinas provides, which makes sense to me, and I think that's right, such that when we have the debt of eternal punishment remitted by the application of the merits of Jesus' death on the cross, ordinarily in the sacrament of reconciliation, the debt of temporal punishment would still remain.
这是一个我们作为有限的主体可以通过在生活中经历不悦来帮助偿还的债务，无论是接受作 为堕落人类生命中非自愿的部分，还是自愿给自己施加不悦来偿还这个债务，不是永恒惩罚 的债务，那只有基督能做到，而是暂时惩罚的债务，这是我现在可以做出贡献的。我们的新 教听众要记住这一点，我为过去已被赦免的罪所做的一切来偿还暂时惩罚的债务，本身就是 基督给我的恩典，是基督在我里面、通过我、与我一同工作，来带来那期望的结果。 And that is a debt that we, as finite agents, can contribute to discharging by undergoing displeasures in our life whether accepting those that are involuntarily part of my life as a fallen human being or voluntarily imposing that displeasure upon myself to discharge that debt not of eternal punishment only christ can do that but that debt of temporal punishment which i can contribute to now granite keep this in mind for our protestant listeners Whatever I am doing to discharge that debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sin is itself a grace that Christ gives me and Christ working in and through me, with me, to bring about that desired result.
因此，这行为，对吧，我接受或给自己施加不悦以消除暂时惩罚债务的行为，是 我和作为神圣的基督，作为圣父之子的共同效果，因为神——至少在托马斯主义 传统中，我是从托马斯主义传统来说的，神和人同时是一个效果的主体，即我自 己的行为，这行为100%是我的也100%是神的，因为是神在不违背我的自 由的情况下促使我做出这个行为，这行为的效果就是消除暂时惩罚的债务。 Such that the behavior, right, and the action in which I either accept or impose displeasure upon myself to get rid of that debt of temporal punishment is an effect of both me and Christ as divine, as the Son of the Father, because God So in the Thomist tradition, at least, I'm speaking from a Thomist tradition, God and human beings are simultaneously agents of one effect, namely my own action, such that the action is 100% mine and 100% God's, because it's God causing me without violating my freedom to bring about that action, which has the effect of getting rid of that debt of temporal punishment.
所以这就是背后的神学理由。 So that's sort of the theological rationale behind that.
这可能是离题了，但我之后还有其他问题要问，但是你必须处于成圣恩典 的状态才能，我猜，以一种令你满意的方式经历那些满足性的惩罚吗？ This might be a tangent, but and I have other things to ask after this, but do you have to be in a state of sanctifying grace to, I guess, undergo those satisfactory punishments in a way that would satisfy you?
好的。 Okay.
我只是想确认一下，因为实际上，我刚刚想到这个。 I just want to make sure, because I actually, I just thought of that.
我以前没有想过这个，所以你确实必须这样做。 I hadn't thought about it before, so you do have to do that.
好的。 Okay.
是的，所以这与炼狱中的灵魂有关，因为要记住，那些在炼狱中以被动方式免除暂时惩罚的 债务或处理罪的残余的灵魂，是处于成圣恩典中的，就像他们已经得救了，他们在基督里。 Yeah, so that ties in with the souls in purgatory, because remember, those souls in purgatory who are having the debt of temporal punishment remitted or the remnants of sin taken care of in a passive way, are in sanctifying grace, like they are already saved, they're in Christ.
对我们来说也是如此，因为要记住，暂时惩罚的债务预设一个人已经在基督里了。 And so too for us, because remember, the debt of temporal punishment presupposes that one is already in Christ.
现在，对于在基督之外的人，你可以既有暂时惩罚的债务，也有永恒惩罚的债务。 Now, you can have a debt of temporal punishment due for someone who's outside of Christ with the debt of eternal punishment as well.
但是当我们谈论偿还暂时惩罚的债务时，这只会在人在基督里之后才会发生。 But whenever we're talking about discharging the debt of temporal punishment, that's going to come about only once the person is in Christ.
对。 Right.
这说得通。 That makes sense.
是的。 Yeah.
所以有几件事。 And so a few things.
那么你会说在仅仅经历满足这个债务、这个暂时罪责所需的惩罚之间有区别吗？ So would you say there's a distinction between, let's say, like, just undergoing the punishment needed to satisfy this debt, this temporal guilt?
以及暂时罪责的赦免，这个暂时罪责能以某种方式被 赦免或宽恕吗，比如通过钥匙的权柄或类似的方式？ And the remission of temporal guilt, can this temporal guilt be remitted or forgiven in some way, like by the power of the keys or something like that?
或者我们必须经历这种苦难？ Or do we have to undergo this suffering?
是的。 Yeah.
好的。 Okay.
好问题。 Great question.
很高兴在那里看到你，布雷登。 Good to see you up there, Braden.
所以按照公义的秩序，我的暂时惩罚的债务应该通过施加某种不悦来偿还，对吧？ And so it belongs to the order of justice that my debt of temporal punishment be discharged by the imposition of some displeasure, right?
但这并不是绝对必须以那种方式完成。 But it is not absolutely necessary that it be done that way.
如果是那样做的，公义就显明了。 If it is done that way, justice is manifest.
但要记住，什么是怜悯？ But remember, what is mercy?
怜悯不是违反公义。 Mercy is not violation of justice.
怜悯是超越公义之上的东西。 Mercy is something over and above justice.
所以神可以赦免。 So God can remit.
这不会是一种偿还。 It wouldn't be a discharging.
这将是赦免那暂时惩罚的债务，而不用在我身上施加不悦。 It would be a remitting of that debt of temporal punishment without imposing the displeasure upon me.
他可以自由地这样做。 He is free to do that.
所以我们作为公教徒相信，既然基督已设立教会以天国的钥匙代表 他行事，教会可以为我们在世上的人行使那怜悯，以这样的方式赦 免我们应得的暂时惩罚的债务，使我们不必经历我们应得的不悦。 And so we believe as Catholics, insofar as Christ has instituted the church to act on his behalf with the keys of the kingdom, the church can, for us here on earth, exercise that mercy to remit debt of temporal punishment due for us in such a way that we do not have to undergo the displeasure that is due to us.
这就是我们所说的大赦。 This is what we call an indulgence.
这就是教会简单地说，孩子们，我们要行使我们从神那里得到的恩赐和权 柄的特权，代表基督为你们赦免暂时惩罚的债务，使你们不必经历惩罚。 It's the church simply saying, children, we're going to exercise our divinely given gift and prerogative of authority on behalf of Christ to remit temporal debt of debt of temporal punishment for you in a way that you don't have to undergo the punishment.
这就是为什么它被称为大赦。 That's why it's called an indulgence.
所以你要行这慈善的行为。 So you perform this charitable act.
你要这样做。 You do this.
你要那样做。 You do that.
你知道，你在禧年走过这些圣门。 You know, you walk through these holy doors in the Jubilee year.
你在圣体面前坐30分钟读经或做其他事情，诸如此类，你做这些事，然后我们就 要行使基督赐给我们的母性权柄，免除你的暂时惩罚的债务，使你不必经历不悦。 you sit in the presence of the Eucharist for 30 minutes reading scripture or something, and on down the line, you do those things, then we're going to exercise our motherly authority over you given to us by Christ to remit that debt of temporal punishment without you having to undergo the displeasure.
这就是怜悯。 That's mercy.
你明白吗？ You see?
现在，对于炼狱中的灵魂，当我们为炼狱中的灵魂获得大赦时，那是教会恳求神，祈 求，对吧，并为炼狱中的灵魂代求，因为教会对炼狱中的灵魂没有直接的管辖权。 Now, in the case of the souls in purgatory, when we gain an indulgence for a soul in purgatory, that's the church imploring God, impetration, right, and interceding for the souls in purgatory, because the church doesn't have direct jurisdiction over the souls in purgatory.
所以教会恳求神说，神啊，请悦纳卡洛所行的这慈善之举，将它应用在炼狱 中的灵魂身上，使他们得到部分或完全的赦免，或完成他们最后的净化。 So the church implores God and saying, God, look with favor upon this act of charity that Carlo has performed and apply it to a soul in purgatory to bring them to either partial or full remission or completion of their final purification.
所以注意这里，布雷顿，在这个关于大赦的阐述中，大赦 只适用于过去已被赦免的罪所应得的暂时惩罚的债务。 So notice here, Brayton, in this articulation of an indulgence, an indulgence only applies to the debt of temporal punishment due for past forgiven sins.
它与我们是否能上天堂的意义上的救恩无关，因为大赦只能应用于已经得救的 人，要么是在持续得救的状态中，比如最初得救并在目前得救的状态中，就像 我们在世上的人，要么是那些绝对保证得救的人，也就是炼狱中的灵魂。 It has nothing to do with our salvation in the sense of whether we're going to get to heaven or not, because an indulgence can only be applied to someone who's already saved, either in the ongoing state of salvation, like initially saved and in the current state of salvation, like for us here on earth, or for those who are guaranteed their salvation, absolutely speaking, namely the souls of purgatory.
对。 Right.
是的，所以关于大赦这一点，我猜这一直是一个争议点，一个很大的争议。 Yeah, and so on that note with indulgences, it has been a, I guess, point of contention, a large contention.
研究我们的大赦教义，查看教理的人，可能会读到类似满功宝库这样的内容。 People who look into our doctrine of indulgences, look into catechism, might read something like the Treasury of Satisfactory Merits.
他们会看着说，好吧，我以为耶稣的受难足以赦免我们的罪。 And they'll look and they'll say, okay, well, I thought Jesus' suffering was sufficient to forgive us of sins.
为什么会这样？ Why is it that?
满功宝库，就是大赦应用于我们暂时罪责的东西，通过这种怜悯的行使来赦免它。 the Treasury satisfaction, which is what the indulgence applies to our temporal guilt, thereby remitting it through this exercise of mercy.
这个满功宝库不仅包括基督的满足，基督无限的满足 ，还包括圣母马利亚、殉道者和圣人的满足功德。 this treasury of satisfaction not only includes the satisfaction, the infinite satisfactions of Jesus Christ, but also the satisfactory merits of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Martyrs and the Saints.
为什么殉道者和圣人的受苦能洁净我们的罪，而圣经说是耶稣的受苦洁净我们的罪？ Why is it that the Martyrs and the Saints, their suffering can cleanse us of sin when the Scriptures say that Jesus' suffering is what cleanses us from sin?
对于那些，你知道，我们提出这种指控的人，你会怎么说？ What would you say to someone who, you know, We mount that accusation.
只有耶稣的受苦能满足或洁净我们的罪，不是马利亚的受苦，不是这些圣人的受苦。 Only Jesus' sufferings can satisfy or cleanse us from sins, not the sufferings of Mary, not the sufferings of these saints.
好的，这里有几点。 Okay, so there's a couple of things there.
首先，你提到了圣人满功的宝库。 So first of all, you brought up like the treasury of the satisfaction of the saints.
好的，所以当我们谈论为我们过去已被赦免的罪做出满足和偿还暂时惩罚的 债务时，那个反对意见的假设是只有耶稣的死才能处理那暂时惩罚的债务。 All right, so when we're talking about satisfying for our past forgiven sins and discharging debt of temporal punishment, The assumption of that objection is that only Jesus' death can take care of that debt of temporal punishment.
但我们会反驳说，好吧，它是暂时的，所以处理那个债务不需要无限的能力。 But we would counter and say, well, it's temporal, and so therefore it doesn't require infinite power to take care of that debt.
现在，确实我们只能凭借住在我们灵魂中的恩典来处理它。 Now, it is true that we can only take care of it in virtue of grace that's dwelling within our soul.
我们必须在基督里才能偿还那个债务，基督在通过我们工作。 We have to be in Christ in order to discharge that debt where Christ is working through us.
但尽管如此，它仍然在有限存在的秩序之内，对吧？ But nevertheless, it's still within the order of finite being, right?
它在受造秩序之内。 It's within the created order.
所以这是我们的行为，在基督的启发和基督的激励 下，通过恩典，与赦免暂时惩罚的债务是相称的。 And so that's something that our actions, as inspired by Christ and motivated by Christ, by grace, is proportionate to remitting the debt of temporal punishment.
永恒惩罚的债务是不相称的。 The debt of eternal punishment is something that's disproportionate.
只有基督能处理那个。 Only Christ can take care of that.
你需要无限的能力来处理那个。 You need infinite power to take care of that.
所以看起来这个反对意见只是预设了一个我们会质疑的假设， 即只有耶稣在十字架上的死才能处理任何罪的惩罚的债务。 And so it would seem that this objection is just presupposing an assumption that that we would challenge, namely that only Jesus' death on the cross can take care of the debt of any punishment for sin.
所以我们会质疑这点并说，不，如果是暂时的债务，那是我们的 行为在基督恩典的启发或推动下，在偿还那债务方面是相称的。 And so we would just challenge that and say, no, if it's temporal debt, that's something that our actions are proportionate to with regard to discharging that debt as inspired by the grace of Christ or moved by the grace of Christ.
所以关于这点我会这么说。 So that's what I would say with regard to that.
现在，关于圣人的宝库，以及圣人在世上爱的行为的价值如何被带到天堂。 Now, with regard to the treasury of the saints, And how the value of the loving actions of the saints here on earth being carried with them into heaven.
以及他们善工的价值如何能被教会用来应用在我们身上。 And how the value of their good works can be utilized by the church to be applied to us.
我们相信这点不是因为我们认为耶稣在十字架上的死的功德不足。 We do not believe this because we think the merits of Jesus' death on the cross is insufficient.
我们百分之百确认基督在十字架上的死为我们无限地满足了。 We affirm 100% that Christ's death on the cross satisfied for us infinitely.
耶稣不需要天上圣人的满足、功德来应用在我们身上。 And Jesus does not need the satisfaction, the merits of the saints in heaven to be applied to us.
他可以只用他自己的。 He could just use his own.
但问题是，耶稣是如何设立的？ But the question is, how did Jesus set it up?
耶稣是否愿意建立一个只有他一个人使用他善工 和牺牲的功德来应用在我们身上的护理秩序？ Did Jesus will an order of providence where it will be he and he alone utilizing the merits of his good work and sacrifice to apply to us?
或者……基督是否以这样的方式设立，他愿意使用他圣徒的功德 作为次要原因，应用在他人身上来帮助他们在圣洁等方面成长？ Or... Did Christ set it up in such a way that he wills to use, as secondary causes, the merits of his holy ones to be applied to others to help them grow in holiness and stuff?
所以我们会主张后者。 And so we would argue the latter.
当然，我们的新教朋友会主张前者。 Our Protestantism friends, of course, are going to argue the former.
但我认为…… But I think...
在这里我们可以援引圣经中所有不同的例子，其中神 愿意使用次要原因来为我们的生命带来属灵的祝福。 Here we can just appeal to all the different examples in the Bible where God wills to use secondary causes to bring about spiritual blessings in our lives.
比如考虑哥林多前书12章中保罗关于基督奥秘身体的神学。 So consider, for example, in 1 Corinthians 12 in Paul's theology of the mystical body of Christ.
眼不能对手说：「我用不着你。」 The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you.
若一个肢体受苦，所有的肢体就一同受苦。 If one part suffers, they all suffer.
若一个肢体得荣耀，所有的肢体就一同快乐。 If one part rejoices, they all rejoice.
注意基督奥秘身体的肢体之间的相互联系。 Notice the interconnectivity of the members of the mystical body of Christ.
神不需要基督身体的那些肢体来为身体的另一个肢体带来医治。 God doesn't need those members of Christ's body to bring about healing in another member of the body.
他可以自己做。 He can just do it on his own.
然而他愿意使用身体一个肢体的活动来为身体的另一个肢体带来祝福。 And yet he wills to use the activity of one member of the body to bring about blessing in the other member of the body.
当然，这都是在奥秘的领域内。 And of course, this is all within the mystical realm.
所以我们在谈论属灵的祝福通过成员身份，通过基督奥秘身体的肢体来传递。 So we're talking about spiritual blessings being communicated via membership, members of the mystical body of Christ.
我也要引用歌罗西书1:24，布雷登，其中保罗 说，我为教会，在我肉身上补满基督患难的缺欠。 I would also appeal to Colossians 1.24, Brayden, where St. Paul says, I fill up that which is lacking in the sufferings of Christ in my body for the church.
注意，保罗把他自己的受苦看作是为教会中他人的救恩作出贡献。 Notice, Paul views his own sufferings as contributing to bringing about the salvation of others within the church.
他说补满基督患难的缺欠，他的意思是功德应用到个人身上的缺欠。 He says filling up what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ, and what he means by that is the lack of the application of the merits to individuals.
保罗把自己看作是参与那些功德的传递，通过他自己 的受苦作为次要原因与基督联合，来应用那些功德。 Paul envisions himself as participating in that communication of those merits, in the application of those merits in and through his own suffering as a secondary cause being united with Christ.
这就给了我们启示和圣经原则，引导我们得出结论，即存在一种属灵善工的交换方式，这是 因着在基督为元首的奥秘身体中的成员身份，而不是仅仅从耶稣到我们的属灵善工的交换。 And so that would give us revelation and biblical principles to lead us to the conclusion that there is a way in which there's an exchange of spiritual goods in virtue of membership of the mystical body of Christ with Christ as the head, as opposed to an exchange of spiritual goods only from Jesus to us.
但基督愿意从他这个源头交换属灵善工，但是通过基督奥秘身体其他肢体的次要因果性。 But Christ wills to exchange spiritual goods from him as the source, but in and through the secondary causality of other members of the mystical body of Christ.
最后，你知道，这预设了他们在地上的善工的价值，他们爱的工作，随着他们进入天堂。 And then finally, you know, that presupposes that the value of their good works here on earth, their works of love, go with them into heaven.
启示录说，这个引文现在我一时想不起来了。 And the book of Revelation says, The citation is actually slipping my mind right now.
由于某些原因，我想不起来了。 I can't, for some reason, I can't remember it.
我想说的是启示录第14章，其中启示录讲到神的圣徒和他们的工作随着他们进入天堂。 I want to say it's Revelation chapter 14, where the book of Revelation speaks of the holy ones of God and their works following them into heaven.
他们所做的工都随着他们。 Their deeds follow them.
所以这会为我们提供一个原则来引导我们，让我们得出结论，是的。 And so that would provide for us a principle to lead us to, that would allow for us to arrive at a conclusion that Yeah.
启示录14:13。是的。 Revelation 14, 13. Yeah.
13。你知道，前几天我试图回忆那段经文，我知道是启示录14章， 我以为是第3节或33节，但其实是第1节。所以是13节。好的。 13. You know, the other day, I was trying to recall that passage, and I knew it was Revelation 14, and I thought 3 or 33, and it was number 1. So it's 13. All right.
所以我现在记住了。 So I got it locked in now.
谢谢你，布莱恩。 Thank you, Brian.
是的，就是这样。 Yeah, there we go.
启示录14:13为我们提供了证据，表明他们在地上慈善行为的价值随着他们进入天堂。 Revelation 14, 13 provides for us evidence that the value of their charitable deeds here on earth follow them into heaven.
这支持了。 That supports.
这就是圣人宝库的简要说明，这就是它的本质所在。 That's the treasury of the saints in a nutshell, in its essence right there.
对。 Right.
好的，这实际上是一个很好的过渡，因为我可以想象新教徒会说 ，好吧，你知道，绕过这个功德神学，让我们只谈奖赏，对吧？ Okay, so that's actually a good segue, because I can imagine a Protestant saying, okay, well, you know, bypassing this theology of merit, let's just talk about rewards, right?
主会因我们所做的事奖赏我们信徒。 The Lord is going to reward us believers for the things that we do.
在天堂会有不同程度的奖赏。 There's going to be a varying of rewards in heaven.
为什么圣人有这种主没有奖赏的功德，以至于它 们可以应用在我们身上来赦免满足性的罪债？ Why is it that the saints have this sort of merit that goes unrewarded by the Lord such that they can be applied to us in remission of the satisfactory death?
是的，好问题。 Yeah, good question.
我实际上以前从未考虑过这个，但这是我立即想到的想法，直觉反应。 I've actually never considered that before, but here's the thought that immediately comes to me, shooting from the hip.
我会简单地质疑这种说法，即天堂中的蒙福者对于他们超出今生所需的善行价值没有奖赏。 That would, I would simply challenge the claim that there is no reward for the blessed in heaven with this value of their deeds for exceeding what was needed to be applied for them in this life.
因为我会说天堂中的这些蒙福者是有奖赏的，一个超越永生本身的奖赏，对吧？ Because I would claim that there is reward for these blessed in heaven, a reward that goes beyond eternal life itself, right?
天堂中的蒙福者，那些善行的价值随着他们的人是有奖赏 的，这奖赏就是他们在真福直观中经历更高程度的真福。 There is reward for the blessed in heaven who have this value of their good deeds following them, and the reward is the higher degree of beatitude that they experience in the beatific vision.
因为我们相信我们在天堂经历的幸福程度与存在于灵魂中的爱德程度成正比。 Because we believe that the degree of happiness we experience in heaven is proportionate to the degree of charity that subsists within the soul.
所以对于这些行如此高程度的爱的行为，和远超处理今生罪的残余所需的爱的价 值的个人，这些随着他们带去的，会在他们余下的存在中贡献于他们在天堂的真 福或幸福程度，而那些因善行而没有那么多爱德价值的人会有较低程度的真福。 And so for these individuals who perform such high degrees of loving action and a value of love that far supersedes what is needed to take care of the remnants of sin in this life, and that carrying over with them, that's contributing for the rest of their existence to their degree of beatitude or happiness in heaven, which Those who didn't have that much value of charity on account of their good deeds would have a lesser degree of beatitude.
你知道，这在我们主的比喻中有暗示，我去为你们预备住处，在我父的家里有 许多住处，暗示因着我们灵魂中的爱德，天堂存在的经历有许多不同的程度。 And this, you know, is hinted at in our Lord's image of, I go to prepare a mansion for you, and in my Father's house there are many rooms, implying that there are many different degrees of the experience of the heavenly existence on account of the charity in our souls.
所以我会这样回答那个反对意见。 So that's how I would answer that objection.
这实际上是个好问题。 That was actually a good question.
我以前从未考虑过。 I never considered it before.
我很感激这个。 I appreciate that.
那个难题不是从我的大脑里来的。 That curveball wasn't from my brain.
我是在圣托马斯·卡耶坦作品的商业集中读到的。 So I read it in a business collection of St. Thomas Cajetan's works.
我认为这只是…… I think it's just...
在哪里？ Where is it?
是的。 Yeah.
卡耶坦的回应。 Cajetan's response.
所以圣托马斯·卡耶坦显然就这些问题与路德辩论过。 So St. Thomas Cajetan obviously debated Luther over these issues.
而且他实际上…… And he was actually...
他受教宗和其他人的委托来回应最初的路德运动。如果我没记错的话， 因为那是很久以前的事了，但当我们谈论大赦时这个想法突然出现在我 脑海中，他区分了满足性功德和实际赢得神奖赏的这些善功的功德。 He was commissioned by the Pope and others to kind of respond to the initial Lutheran movement And I think if I recall correctly, because I live a long time ago, but it just kind of popped in my brain as we were talking about indulgences, is he makes a distinction between satisfactory merits and merits that actually merit these goods that are rewarded by God.
所以我认为，满足性功德不是以同样的意义得到奖赏，这些其他的…… And so the satisfactory merits, I think, are not rewarded in the same sense that these other...
我不知道。 I don't know.
我会…… I'll...
我改天会做一期节目讲这个。 I'll do a show on it sometime.
我们已经确立了我们的永恒归宿在死亡时刻被印证。 We've established our eternal destination sealed at the moment of death.
我们已经确立了这种我们能够……的暂时罪责。 We've established that there is this temporal guilt that we are able to...
我想我们甚至没有真正讨论这个，因为我只是在胡言乱语。 I guess we didn't even really go over this because I was just kind of blabbering about it or so.
但在我们进入下一个问题之前，请为我澄清一下。 But just clarify for me before we get on to the next question.
致死的罪的暂时罪责，是唯一可能在炼狱中招致暂时惩罚的事情吗？ The temporal guilt of mortal sin, is that the only thing that might merit temporal punishment in purgatory?
或者我们可能犯的其他事情，比如，是小罪吗？ Or are there other things that we might have committed, like, is it venial sins?
小罪能招致暂时惩罚吗？ Can venial sins merit temporal punishment?
是无序的依恋吗？ Is it disorder attachments?
还是只有被赦免的致死的罪？ Or is it just the mortal sins that are forgiven?
好的，如果我理解你的问题，如果我犯了致死的罪，我 不仅招致永恒惩罚的债务，也招致暂时惩罚的债务。 Okay, so if I'm tracking your question, if I commit a mortal sin, I incur not only debt of eternal punishment, but also debt of temporal punishment.
是的。 Yes.
耶稣在十字架上的死的功德应用在我身上来消除永 恒惩罚的债务，只有基督的死才能做到这一点。 The merits of Jesus' death on the cross are applied to me to get rid of the debt of eternal punishment, and only Christ's death can do that.
考虑到暂时惩罚的债务，基督的死的功德也应用在我身上，同时 与我在恩典的启发或推动下所做的偿还暂时惩罚债务的事合作。 Considering the debt of temporal punishment, the merits of Jesus' death of Christ are applied to me as well, along with and in cooperation with what I do to discharge that debt of temporal punishment as inspired by grace, or moved by grace, I should say.
好吗？ Okay?
是的。 Yes.
现在，如果我犯了小罪，那个小罪，再次，涉及对受造 物之善的无序趋向，但没有背离神作为我超性的终向。 Now, if I commit a venial sin, that venial sin, again, involves a disordered approach to a creaturely good without turning away from God as my supernatural end.
因此，我仍然招致暂时惩罚的债务，必须得到纠正或处 理和偿还，如果今生没有完全偿还，就在来世偿还。 And so thereby, I still incur a debt of temporal punishment that has to get rectified or taken care of and discharged, if not completely in this life, then in the next.
现在，其他招致的或罪的其他残余涉及小罪本身的罪责，这将是炼狱中净化的对象。 Now, other incurments or other remnants of sin are would involve the guilt of venial sin itself, that would be an object of purification and purgatory.
现在，当然，如果我犯了致死的罪，我就有致死的罪的罪责，对吧？ Now, of course, if I commit a mortal sin, I have the guilt of mortal sin, right?
只有基督无限的怜悯才能应用来消除那个。 Only Christ's infinite mercy can be applied to get rid of that.
但如果我犯了小罪，那么我就有必须通过忏悔来赦免的小罪的罪责。 But if I commit a venial sin, then I have the guilt of venial sin that has to get remitted through repentance.
一个痛悔的行为就足够了。 An act of contrition suffices for that.
但是，当然，它也会招致必须偿还的暂时惩罚的债务，对吧？ But, of course, it's also going to incur a debt of temporal punishment that has to get discharged, right?
现在，对于每一个罪，无论是小罪还是致死的罪。 Now, with every sin, whether venial are mortal.
还有对我以无序方式追求的受造物之善的不健康依恋，无论是完 全无序，如背离神和致死的罪，还是部分无序，如小罪的情况。 There is also unhealthy attachments to the creaturely goods that I pursued in a disordered way, whether entirely disordered, like turning away from God and mortal sin, or partially disordered, like in the case of venial sin.
而那些不健康的依恋必须重新调整或必须纠正和重新调整，以便我能进入真福直观。 And those unhealthy attachments have to get reordered or have to get rectified and reordered in order for me to enter into the beatific vision.
这是我们所说的炼狱中净化的另一个对象。 That's yet another object of the purification in what we call purgatory.
好的，是的，所以所有这些事情，我猜，就是在这炼狱中被净化的。 Okay, yeah, so all those things are, is what is, I guess, purged in this purgatory.
正确。 Correct.
你会说什么，实际上，我们有这么多问题。 What would you say, actually, we have so many questions.
我们可以做第二部分，伙计。 We can do a part two, man.
是的，我们可以做第二部分。 Yeah, we can do a part two.
我们可以做第二部分。 We can do a part two.
好的，所以，是的，这让我轻松一点。 Okay, so that, yeah, that frees me up a little bit.
所以我想我可以把这个其他问题留到以后，因为它与区别有关，不，我现在问吧，随便了。 So I guess I can leave this other question later because it has to do with the distinct, no, I ask it now, whatever.
对于一个新教徒说，是的，好的，我理解炼狱，净化对受造物的不健康依恋，你会怎么说？ What do you say to someone who's a Protestant who's like, yeah, okay, I get the purgatory, purging of unhealthy attachments to creatures.
我理解那部分。 I get that part.
但当我们死的时候，我们不是摆脱了，就像，我们的死不是 使我们摆脱了私欲，这种无序的，我猜，对罪的欲望吗？ But when we die, aren't we rid, like, doesn't our death rid us of concupiscence, this disordered, I guess, desire for sin?
或者说，在私欲和不健康依恋之间是否有区别？ Or is there, like, a distinction between concupiscence and, like, unhealthy attachments?
嗯。 Hmm.
是的，这是个好问题。 Yeah, that's a good question.
我的意思是，私欲是对罪的倾向，它更多是对罪的一般倾向， 而不健康的依恋是因为我以无序方式追求的特定善而招致的。 I mean, concupiscence is the inclination towards sin, and it's more of a general inclination towards sin, whereas the unhealthy attachments are incurred on account of a specific good that I pursued in a disordered way.
所以这两者之间是有区别的。 So there is a distinction between the two.
所以关于对罪的一般倾向，比如私欲，是否在死亡时完全被处理掉，被消除？ So with regard to whether the general inclination to sin, such as concupiscence, is completely taken care of, and done away with at death?
这是一个我必须暂时搁置的问题。 That's a question that I'm going to have to punt on.
所以这是一个做第二部分的好过渡，对吧？ And so this is a good segue to doing another part two, right?
我们必须这样做。 We have to.
我没有那么多问题。 I didn't have so many questions.
是的，不，这是一个很好的问题。 Yeah, no, that's an excellent question.
我以前没有考虑过私欲的一般倾向是否会在死亡时刻被完 全处理掉，因此只剩下这些其他的罪的残余需要被净化。 I had not considered the general inclination of concupiscence before of whether that would be taken care of completely from the moment of death and then therefore only these other remnants of sin being purged.
无论如何，我可以在这里试着说，一般来说，不做进一步研究，我们可以说要么 是A，对罪的一般倾向会在死亡时刻被完全处理掉，这是有道理的，因为我们有 的这种私欲和对罪的一般倾向也涉及身体的失序，失序的欲望等等，对吧？ Either way, I can just take a shot here generally speaking, without doing further research, we could say either A, the general inclination to sin is going to be completely taken care of at the moment of death, which would make sense because this concupiscence that we have and this general inclination to sin involves the bodily disorders as well, the disordered appetites and stuff, right?
所以看起来合理的是，当灵魂与身体分离时，灵魂将不再受到那些无序欲望的阻碍。 So it would seem reasonable that with the separation of the soul from the body, that the soul would no longer be hampered by those disorderly appetites.
所以看起来合理的结论是，对罪的一般倾向会在死亡时刻结束。 And so it would seem reasonable to conclude that the general inclination to sin would be done with at the moment of death.
但随后问题出现了，那么任何种类的属灵的无序 倾向，就是在理智和意志中的倾向又如何呢？ But then the question arises, well, what about any sort of spiritual disorder inclinations to sin, right, in the intellect and the will.
要么这会在死亡时刻立即被处理掉，要么会在灵魂 经历净化的过程中以某种渐进的方式被处理掉。 And either that's going to be taken care of instantly at the moment of death or it's going to be taken care of in a sort of a process way as the soul is undergoing its purification.
所以我认为，你知道，可能是A或B，我现在还不确定是A 还是B。但我认为我们可以在那里建立一些一般的参数。 So I think, you know, it can be either A or B, and I'm just not sure yet whether I can say A or B. But I think we can establish some general parameters there.
对。 Right.
我知道我们时间到了，所以下次，我们甚至还没讨论到玛加伯下。 I know we're out of time, so next time, we didn't even get into the second Maccabees.
我们甚至都没谈到圣经，兄弟。 We didn't even talk about Scripture, bro.
哦，我知道。 Oh, I know.
我们甚至都没有给出这些内容的圣经证据。 We didn't even give the Scriptural evidence for this stuff.
是的，我知道。 Yeah, I know.
希望我们很快就能做第二部分。 We'll do a part two very soon, hopefully.
而且，是的。 And, yes.
哦，天啊。 Oh, my goodness.
抱歉。 Sorry.
我只是有太多推测性的问题。 I just had so many speculative questions.
但首先解决神学上的障碍和疑虑是重要的。 But it is important to get the theological obstacles and hang-ups out of the way first.
我认为，这为圣经证据铺平了道路。 I think, to pave a way for the biblical evidence.
现在，在对话中，通常问题就是，好吧，这在圣经中在哪里？ Now, in conversation, normally, the question is just going to be, well, where is that in the Bible?
但我假设你在要理班这里的观众可能是神学上很敏锐的观 众，首先要得到或想要得到神学问题的答案会铺平道路。 But I would assume that your audience here on the Catechumen are viewers who are probably theologically astute and having or wanting answers to the theological questions first is going to pave the way.
所以我认为这是恰当的，也是神所安排的，布雷登，我们 首先关注神学方面，然后我们可以回来做一些圣经释经。 So I think it's appropriate and divinely ordered here, Braden, that we focused on the theology side first, and then we can come back and do some biblical exegesis.
是的，是的。 Yes, yes.
所以这将是下一期节目的主题。 So that'll be the theme of next show.
如果你还没有的话，请拿起《她的喜乐是真实的》。 But if you haven't already, please pick up Her Joy is for Real.
我喜欢这个标题。 I love the title.
我喜欢这个标题因为它有点像是对《天堂是真实的》这本书的模仿。 I love the title because it's kind of like a parody of the Heaven is for Real book.
我喜欢它。 I love it.
它很好。 It's good.
这是好消息。 It's good news.
这是关于受伤的人的好消息。 It's good news about people who are hurting it.
下次我们也需要谈论那些内容。 And next time we need to talk about that stuff too.
为什么这是好消息？ Why is it good news?
是的，当然。 Yes, for sure.
哦，天啊。 Oh, my goodness.
有……买这本书。 There's Get this book.
买这本书。 Get this book.
这是我现在最喜欢的书之一。 It's one of my favorite books right now.
我一直在钻研它。 I've been digging through it.
我就像，哦，我在读硕士课程。 I'm like, oh, I'm in my master's courses.
它们刚刚又开始了。 They just started again.
我不能像我想要的那样多地读我想读的东西。 I can't read what I want to read as much as I want to read it.
所以，是的，有很多事情。 And so, yeah, there's a lot of things.
所以去买这本书吧，shop.catholic.com So go pick up this book, shop.catholic.com
或者亚马逊。 or Amazon.
看看，是carlobroussard.com Check out, is it carlobroussard.com
还是carlobroussard.com？ or carlobroussard.com?
是的，carlobroussard.com Yeah, carlobroussard.com
是我的网站。 is my website.
我为公教答问所做的所有工作都集中在那里一个地方。 All of the work that I do for Catholic Answers is hosted there in one spot.
所有的音频，我为公教答问做的播客，主日公教之道，我写的文章， 公教答问直播的视频，但我也在那里放了一些我在公教答问之外做的 东西，比如我在图尔萨教区的本地广播节目，叫做《公教理由》。 All of my audio, my podcast for Catholic Answers, Sunday Catholic Word, the articles that I write, the videos from Catholic Answers Live, But I also have hosted there some stuff that I do outside of Catholic Answers, like my local radio show here in the Diocese of Tulsa called The Catholic Reason.
这只是我讲解护教学主题的独白节目，但在我的网站上有音频和视频两种格式。 It's just a monologue show of me going through apologetical topics, but that's hosted at my website in both audio and video format.
我目前还在线上教授一个短期课程，我们正在录制。 I also have a short course that I'm currently teaching live online, and we're recording it.
在我们录制完这个在线短期课程后，它将在直播课程结束后可以按需购买。 And after we record the online short course, it will be available for purchase on demand subsequent to the live sessions.
还会有更多即将推出的短期课程。 And there will be more forthcoming short courses.
然后还有，提前透露一下，我目前正在创建三个不同等级的订阅 计划，人们可以订阅并从我这里获得一些额外的护教学内容。 And then also, too, a sneak peek, I'm currently in the process of creating subscription plans of three different tiers or levels where somebody can subscribe and get some extra apologetical content from me.
所以我真的很期待这个，希望人们在接下来几天左右上线时， 会订阅这些不同的等级，因为我期待在这里建立一些社群。 And so I'm really looking forward to that and hoping that people will, whenever it goes live here in the next few days or so, that people will subscribe to these different levels because I'm looking forward to establishing some community here.
是的，是的。 Yes, yes.
我会在下面的描述中链接所有这些内容。 I will link all that stuff down in the description below.
看看卡尔的频道。 Check out Carl's channel.
订阅。 Subscribe.
去他的网站支持他。 Go support him on his website.
在我们结束直到第二部分之前，我想你有什么最后的话要说吗？ And do you have any last words before we sign off until part two, I suppose?
是的，而且，我忘了提到他们也可以查看我的Y ouTube频道并订阅，在那里观看视频。 Yeah, so also, too, I forgot to mention they can check out my YouTube channel and subscribe and watch the videos there as well.
但我只想说谢谢你，布雷登。 But I would just want to say thanks, Brayden.
我很享受和你一起来这里谈论这些专业话题，伙计。 I enjoy coming on and geeking out with you, man.
我享受这些深入的神学问题，我希望并祈祷对你的观众来说，这些问题是充分和清 晰的，这样他们就能把它吸收到自己的心灵和思想中，为参与这类对话做好准备。 I enjoy the deep theological questions, and I hope and pray that For your audience, the questions were adequate and clear so that they can absorb it into their own hearts and minds to be prepared to engage in these sorts of conversations.
是的。 Yes.
下次继续收看。 Tune in next time.
如果你们对我们已经讨论过的内容有任何问题，我们也许可以在下次解答。 If you guys have any questions of what we've already discussed, we could maybe even address those next time.
所以把它们留在下面的评论中。 So leave them down in the conversation below.
我们希望通过我们阐释信仰，你们的信仰也会得到加强。 And we hope that by our letting the faith, your faith will be strengthened as well.
祝你们度过美好的一天，下次再见。 You have an amazing day, and we'll see you guys next time.