- start: 0.109
  end: 2.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Welcome to First Lutheran Church.
  zh: 欢迎来到第一路德宗教会。
- start: 2.732
  end: 4.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I'm Evan McClanahan, and I'm the pastor here.
  zh: 我是伊万·麦克拉纳汉，是这里的牧师。
- start: 4.594
  end: 8.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I'll be the host and moderator for the debate this evening.
  zh: 今晚我将担任辩论的主持人和调解人。
- start: 9.339
  end: 17.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'First, a few quick announcements: If you need to go to the restroom, it''s behind me in a hallway you can access through that door.'
  zh: 首先，几个简短的通知：如果你需要去洗手间，它在我身后的走廊里，你可以通过那扇门进入。
- start: 17.067
  end: 19.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You'll just have to get up and walk in front of everyone.
  zh: 你只需要站起来，从大家面前走过去就行。
- start: 19.229
  end: 23.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We won't have an intermission, so if you're at peace with it, do what you have to do.
  zh: 我们不会有中场休息，所以如果你觉得没问题的话，就按需要行动吧。
- start: 24.433
  end: 34.138
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If you like these sorts of theological conversations and debates, you might want to check out, especially if you're in Houston, Theology by the Pint at theologybythepint.org.
  zh: 如果你喜欢这类神学对话和辩论，特别是如果你在休斯顿，你可以去theologybythepint.org查看「品酒论神学」活动。
- start: 34.138
  end: 44.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We have monthly events and a podcast called Theology on Air, so check out the website, and we want you to be a part of that conversation after the event.
  zh: 我们每月都有活动，还有一个叫「空中神学」的播客，所以请查看网站，我们希望活动结束后你也能参与到这些讨论中来。
- start: 44.522
  end: 54.905
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Dr. White, whom his followers and listeners will know, is in the midst of a five-debate teaching tour, so he is going to leave after the debate.
  zh: 怀特博士，他的追随者和听众都认识他，现在正在进行五场辩论教学巡回，所以他将在辩论结束后离开。
- start: 54.905
  end: 62.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: He's not able to shake hands or sign books, but if you're coming to the debates about a month from now, then he may be able to do that then.
  zh: 他现在无法握手或签书，但如果你一个月后来参加辩论，那时他可能就有时间这样做了。
- start: 62.427
  end: 65.468
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So please excuse him for that.
  zh: 所以请原谅他这一点。
- start: 66.849
  end: 71.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: After the debate, Mr. Horne will be next door; he'll be signing books for a meet and greet.
  zh: 辩论结束后，霍恩先生会在隔壁，他会在见面会上为大家签书。
- start: 71.57
  end: 72.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Yes?
  zh: 好吗？
- start: 73.942
  end: 80.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You are probably familiar with both speakers, and the introductions are in your program, so I'm not going to spend much time doing that.
  zh: 你们可能都熟悉这两位演讲者，而且介绍已经在你们的节目单上了，所以我就不多花时间介绍了。
- start: 80.443
  end: 88.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I'll only say that if you want to learn more about our speakers, you can go to Dr. White's website, aomin.org,
  zh: 我只想说如果你想了解更多关于我们演讲者的信息，你可以访问怀特博士的网站aomin.org，
- start: 88.545
  end: 94.786
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: which stands for Alpha and Omega Ministries, and for Trent Horn, you can learn more at trenhorn.com.
  zh: 这代表阿拉法和俄梅戛事工，至于特伦特·霍恩，你可以在trenhorn.com了解更多。
- start: 94.887
  end: 104.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Both gentlemen, as you know, are prolific authors, podcasters, YouTubers, and all-around influencers, as the kids say these days.
  zh: 如你所知，这两位先生都是多产的作家、播客主持人、油管主播，用现在年轻人的话说，是全方位的网红。
- start: 105.952
  end: 127.483
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'The format for those who aren''t in the room and don''t have a program in their hand: 15-minute opening remarks, 7-minute rebuttal, 4-minute rebuttal, two 10-minute cross-examination periods each, so that''s 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes, 10 minutes—40 minutes total—then a 20-minute Q&A. We''re not doing Q&A from the floor.'
  zh: 对于那些不在现场没有节目单的人，形式如下：15分钟开场发言，7分钟反驳，4分钟反驳，每人各有两个10分钟交叉询问时段，也就是10分钟、10分钟、10分钟、10分钟——总共40分钟——然后是20分钟问答环节。我们不接受现场提问。
- start: 127.483
  end: 132.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You will have to write your question, and then I will be the one who chooses which questions to ask.
  zh: 你们需要写下你们的问题，然后由我来选择提问哪些问题。
- start: 132.506
  end: 138.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They will have one minute to answer and then a 30-second response, depending on who the question is addressed to.
  zh: 根据问题的对象，他们将有一分钟时间回答，然后有30秒的回应时间。
- start: 138.79
  end: 148.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If your handwriting is not readable—if it’s illegible, I think is the word—it will not be considered, so please do your best and write carefully what you want the question to be.
  zh: 如果你的字迹无法辨认——我想「难以辨认」是这个词——这个问题就不会被考虑，所以请尽力把你想问的问题写清楚。
- start: 148.756
  end: 154.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I will be picking those up before the cross-examination, okay?
  zh: 我会在交叉询问之前收集这些问题，好吗？
- start: 154.011
  end: 156.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So before the cross-examination is when I will be picking them up.
  zh: 所以我会在交叉询问之前收集这些问题。
- start: 156.653
  end: 159.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: That will give me 40 minutes to filter through the questions.
  zh: 这样我就有40分钟的时间来筛选问题。
- start: 160.736
  end: 164.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Then after that, we'll have five-minute closing remarks, and that will be it.
  zh: 之后，我们将有五分钟的结束发言，然后就结束了。
- start: 165.439
  end: 171.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Normally in these events, the person answering in the affirmative goes first; that will be true tonight.
  zh: 通常在这类活动中，持肯定立场的人先发言，今晚也是如此。
- start: 171.503
  end: 175.145
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The question is, is the doctrine of purgatory true?
  zh: 问题是，炼狱的教义是否正确？
- start: 175.145
  end: 178.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Our Roman Catholic guest, Trent Horn, says yes, so he gets to go first.
  zh: 我们的罗马公教会嘉宾特伦特·霍恩持肯定态度，所以他先发言。
- start: 178.868
  end: 180.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So please welcome our first speaker tonight.
  zh: 所以请欢迎今晚的第一位发言者。
- start: 188.234
  end: 195.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, well, I’d like to thank James for debating this important issue and for debating me last night, and I’d like to thank First Lutheran for hosting this debate.
  zh: 好的，我要感谢詹姆斯就这个重要议题与我辩论，也感谢他昨晚与我辩论，同时我要感谢第一路德宗教会主办这场辩论。
- start: 196.118
  end: 213.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The Catechism of the Catholic Church says in paragraphs 1030 and 1031: All who die in God''s grace and friendship but still imperfectly purified are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death, they undergo purification so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.'
  zh: 《公教会教理》第1030和1031段说：所有在神的恩典和友谊中死去，但尚未完全净化的人，确实已获得永恒救恩的保证；但在死后，他们要经过净化，以达到进入天堂喜乐所必需的圣洁。
- start: 213.86
  end: 221.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
  zh: 教会将这种选民的最后净化称为炼狱，这与被罚的人所受的惩罚完全不同。
- start: 221.581
  end: 224.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Purgatory is not an alternative to heaven or hell.
  zh: 炼狱不是天堂或地狱的替代选择。
- start: 224.202
  end: 229.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is not a second chance to be saved, and it is not a place where sinners work to purify themselves.
  zh: 它不是获得救恩的第二次机会，也不是罪人自我净化的地方。
- start: 229.723
  end: 234.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Purgatory is the way Christ completes our sanctification or growth in holiness.
  zh: 炼狱是基督完成我们成圣或在圣洁中成长的方式。
- start: 234.504
  end: 240.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Protestants already believe in sanctification, so they should have no problem accepting this final part of the process.
  zh: 新教徒已经相信成圣，所以他们应该不会排斥这个过程的最后部分。
- start: 240.726
  end: 247.393
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In tonight's debate, I will not be defending various theological opinions about purgatory, such as its duration or what it entails.
  zh: 在今晚的辩论中，我不会为关于炼狱的各种神学观点辩护，比如它的持续时间或具体内容。
- start: 247.529
  end: 255.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I will also not be defending secondary doctrines related to it, like indulgences, since there are Christians who deny indulgences but believe in purgatory.
  zh: 我也不会为与之相关的次要教义辩护，比如大赦，因为有些基督徒虽然否认大赦但相信炼狱。
- start: 255.693
  end: 263.276
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Protestant author C.S. Lewis compared purgatory to visiting a dentist and said, Our souls demand purgatory, don't they?
  zh: 新教作家路易斯将炼狱比作看牙医，并说：「我们的灵魂需要炼狱，不是吗？」
- start: 263.436
  end: 271.759
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The Protestant author Jerry Walls, a frequent critic of Catholicism, defends purgatory in his book Purgatory: The Logic of Total Transformation.'
  zh: 新教作家杰里·沃尔斯，一位经常批评公教的人，在他的著作《炼狱：完全转变的逻辑》中为炼狱辩护。
- start: 271.94
  end: 277.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Finally, the Eastern Orthodox believe in post-mortem purification, but they don't call this process purgatory.
  zh: 最后，东正教相信死后净化，但他们不称这个过程为炼狱。
- start: 277.867
  end: 283.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now that we have a better view of what purgatory is, I will present two arguments in favor of this doctrine.
  zh: 现在我们对炼狱有了更好的认识，我将提出两个支持这个教义的论据。
- start: 283.171
  end: 285.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: First, there is the argument from spiritual cleansing.
  zh: 首先是灵性净化的论据。
- start: 286.213
  end: 289.876
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One, God can purify Christians of their desire for sin.
  zh: 第一，神能净化基督徒对罪的欲望。
- start: 290.216
  end: 292.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No one in heaven will desire sin.
  zh: 在天堂里没有人会渴望犯罪。
- start: 293.138
  end: 304.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some Christians still desire sin at the moment of death; therefore, some Christians will be purified of the desire for sin after death but before they enter heaven.
  zh: 有些基督徒在死亡时刻仍然有犯罪的欲望；因此，有些基督徒会在死后进入天堂之前被净化，除去犯罪的欲望。
- start: 304.056
  end: 309.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Premise 1 follows from Scripture and God''s omnipotence: If God can''t free us from the desire to sin, He isn''t all-powerful.'
  zh: 第一个前提来自圣经和神的全能：如果神不能使我们摆脱犯罪的欲望，他就不是全能的。
- start: 309.961
  end: 315.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Premise 2 follows from Revelation 21:27, which says of heaven that nothing unclean shall enter it.
  zh: 第二个前提来自启示录21:27，其中说到天堂凡不洁净的，总不得进那城。
- start: 315.866
  end: 319.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In heaven, there will be no actual sin or even the desire to sin.
  zh: 在天堂里，既没有实际的罪，也没有犯罪的欲望。
- start: 320.31
  end: 326.415
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Premise 3 is known from experience, especially in cases of Christians struggling with sin who die unexpectedly.
  zh: 第三个前提来自经验，特别是那些与罪挣扎的基督徒意外死亡的情况。
- start: 326.641
  end: 335.492
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Since all the premises are true, the conclusion logically follows: We will be fully sanctified before entering heaven, even if we are not fully sanctified when we die.'
  zh: 既然所有前提都是真实的，结论就合乎逻辑：我们在进入天堂之前会完全成圣，即使我们在死时还没有完全成圣。
- start: 335.692
  end: 342.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, James might refer to Hebrews 10:14, For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
  zh: 现在，詹姆斯可能会引用希伯来书10:14，因为他一次献祭，便叫那得以成圣的人永远完全。
- start: 342.25
  end: 351.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, Paul says in Philippians 3:12 that he is not yet perfect, and in Romans 7:20, Paul says he does evil because of sin which dwells within him.
  zh: 然而，保罗在腓立比书3:12说他还未完全，在罗马书7:20，保罗说他所做的恶是因为住在他里面的罪。
- start: 351.056
  end: 358.981
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God will not allow sin in heaven, even if it is hidden under an alien righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us, as my opponent claims.
  zh: 神不会允许罪存在于天堂，即使如我的对手所说，它被归算给我们的基督的外来义遮盖。
- start: 359.161
  end: 364.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Instead, God will fully purify us; hence, the doctrine of purgatory.
  zh: 相反，神会完全净化我们；因此就有了炼狱的教义。
- start: 364.365
  end: 367.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Second, there is the argument for moral correction.
  zh: 第二是道德纠正的论据。
- start: 368.047
  end: 374.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'It goes like this: When Christians sin, God unpleasantly disciplines them to morally perfect them.'
  zh: 论据是这样的：当基督徒犯罪时，神会通过不愉快的管教来使他们在道德上完全。
- start: 375.097
  end: 385.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some sins are not unpleasantly disciplined in this life; therefore, God unpleasantly disciplines some Christians after death to morally perfect them.
  zh: 有些罪在今生没有受到不愉快的管教；因此，神会在死后通过不愉快的管教使一些基督徒在道德上完全。
- start: 385.864
  end: 400.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let's start with Premise 1. Hebrews 12 says, My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by Him; for the Lord disciplines him whom He loves and chastises every son whom He receives.
  zh: 让我们从第一个前提开始。希伯来书12说：我儿，你不可轻看主的管教，被他责备的时候，也不可灰心；因为主所爱的，他必管教，又鞭打凡所收纳的儿子。
- start: 400.438
  end: 406.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The word translated chastises is mastigōi, which in every other use of the New Testament is rendered scourging.
  zh: 这里翻译为「鞭打」的词是mastigōi，在新约的其他地方都被译为「鞭打」。
- start: 406.422
  end: 410.684
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The verse literally says God flogs every son with a whip whom He receives.
  zh: 这节经文字面意思是说神用鞭子抽打他所收纳的每一个儿子。
- start: 410.925
  end: 416.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The text goes on to say God disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness.
  zh: 经文接着说神管教我们是为我们的益处，使我们在他的圣洁上有分。
- start: 416.613
  end: 425.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
  zh: 凡管教的事，当时不觉得快乐，反觉得愁苦；后来却为那经练过的人结出平安的果子，就是义。
- start: 426.184
  end: 445.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even though Christ saved us from the eternal consequences of our sins, God still allows us to suffer the temporary consequences of our sins, such as a disordered will that is attached to sin, a lack of full fellowship with God, the fitting justice of feeling bad when we have done bad, and even suffering in this life.
  zh: 虽然基督救我们脱离了罪的永恒后果，但神仍允许我们承受罪的暂时后果，比如依附罪的混乱意志、与神缺乏完全的团契、做错事后应当感到的愧疚，甚至今生的苦难。
- start: 445.261
  end: 452.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, God forgave David's sins of adultery and murder, but still punished him in this life through the death of his infant son.
  zh: 例如，神赦免了大卫奸淫和谋杀的罪，但仍然在今生通过他婴孩的死亡来惩罚他。
- start: 452.93
  end: 458.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God does not punish us arbitrarily, but to reorder our wills so we can be morally perfected in Him.
  zh: 神惩罚我们不是任意的，而是为了重整我们的意志，使我们能在他里面道德完全。
- start: 459.035
  end: 465.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hebrews says earthly fathers do this imperfectly with their children, but God does this perfectly with us.
  zh: 希伯来书说地上的父亲对孩子的管教是不完全的，但神对我们的管教是完全的。
- start: 465.881
  end: 467.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, what about Premise Two?
  zh: 现在，关于第二个前提呢？
- start: 467.482
  end: 478.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Paragraph 1472 of the Catechism says, A conversion which proceeds from fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
  zh: 《公教会教理》第1472段说，出于热切爱德的悔改能使罪人获得完全的净化，以至于不再需要任何惩罚。
- start: 479.187
  end: 482.371
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can choose to receive God's correction in this life.
  zh: 我们可以选择在今生接受神的管教。
- start: 482.371
  end: 491.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can choose to be sorrowful for the sins that we have committed and reorder ourselves to full fellowship with God, and we would no longer suffer the temporary consequences of our sins.
  zh: 我们可以选择为我们所犯的罪忧伤，重新调整自己与神有完全的团契，这样我们就不再承受罪的暂时后果。
- start: 492.104
  end: 496.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, not everyone does that, as can be seen throughout salvation history.
  zh: 然而，从救恩历史来看，并非每个人都这样做。
- start: 497.828
  end: 502.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Ancient Jews believed that the dead were purified after death in Gehenna.
  zh: 古代犹太人相信死者在欣嫩子谷中死后得到净化。
- start: 502.19
  end: 510.013
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: According to Simcha Paul Raphael, a professor of Jewish studies at Temple University, Gehenna served as a realm of purgation and purification.
  zh: 根据圣殿大学犹太研究教授辛查·保罗·拉斐尔的说法，欣嫩子谷是一个净化和洁净的领域。
- start: 510.173
  end: 525.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: After this experience, the soul is sufficiently purified and able to enter the supernatural post-mortem realm of Gan Eden (the Garden of Eden). In the second century before Christ, Judas Maccabeus made an offering of silver on behalf of soldiers who died in battle.
  zh: 经过这种经历后，灵魂得到充分净化，能够进入死后超自然的伊甸园。在基督前第二世纪，犹大·马加比为战死的士兵献上了银子。
- start: 526.03
  end: 533.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Jewish text that records this act says he made atonement for the dead so that they might be delivered from their sin.
  zh: 记录这一行为的犹太经文说，他为死者赎罪，使他们可以从罪中得释放。
- start: 533.713
  end: 541.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus and the apostles also never taught that all believers immediately enter heaven free from any unpleasant consequences.
  zh: 耶稣和使徒也从未教导说所有信徒立即进入天堂就能免除一切不愉快的后果。
- start: 542.318
  end: 550.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus told His audience to make friends with accusers, or else they will hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be put in prison.
  zh: 耶稣告诉听众要与对头和解，否则他们会把你送给审判官，审判官交给差役，你就会被下在监里。
- start: 550.9
  end: 555.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
  zh: 我实在告诉你，若有一文钱没有还清，你断不能从那里出来。
- start: 555.321
  end: 565.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Protestant reformer John Calvin said, If in this passage the judge signifies God, the accuser the devil, the guard the angel, the prison purgatory, I shall willingly yield to them.
  zh: 新教改革家加尔文说：「如果在这段经文中，审判官代表神，控告者代表魔鬼，差役代表天使，监狱代表炼狱，我会欣然接受他们的说法。」
- start: 565.643
  end: 570.144
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: To get around this, Calvin interprets Jesus' advice to be only about worldly law courts.
  zh: 为了避开这一点，加尔文将耶稣的建议解释为仅仅关于世俗法庭。
- start: 570.236
  end: 576.559
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, that doesn’t make sense, given the context in the previous verses of avoiding Gehenna due to anger with a brother.
  zh: 然而，考虑到前文因与弟兄生气而要避免下欣嫩子谷的上下文，这种解释并不合理。
- start: 576.559
  end: 584.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Remember, ancient Jews believed Gehenna was a temporary punishment after death where you were released once you had paid the last penny.
  zh: 记住，古代犹太人相信欣嫩子谷是死后的暂时惩罚，一旦你还清最后一分钱就会被释放。
- start: 584.923
  end: 598.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In 1 Corinthians chapter 3, Paul describes Christian workers at the final judgment.
  zh: 在哥林多前书第3章，保罗描述了最后审判时的基督徒工人。
- start: 598.709
  end: 605.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those who produce good works are symbolized by precious stones, while those who produce bad works are symbolized by hay and straw.
  zh: 那些结出好果子的用宝石来象征，而那些作坏事的用草和禾秸来象征。
- start: 605.991
  end: 609.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A fire tests the works and burns up the bad works.
  zh: 火要试验各人的工程，烧掉坏的工程。
- start: 609.472
  end: 618.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Verse 15 says, If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
  zh: 第15节说：人的工程若被烧了，他就要受亏损，自己却要得救，虽然得救乃像从火里经过的一样。
- start: 619.154
  end: 626.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's possible the works symbolized by stones are the Christian disciples of these workers.
  zh: 用石头象征的工程可能是这些工人所带领的基督徒门徒。
- start: 626.226
  end: 637.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This corresponds to Malachi chapter 3, a passage that also talks about the temple, the day the Levites being refined in fire like gold and silver, and others being stubble that are burnt up.
  zh: 这与玛拉基书第3章相呼应，那段经文也谈到圣殿，利未人像金银一样在火中被炼净的日子，以及其他人像碎秸被烧尽。
- start: 637.898
  end: 648.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The good and bad materials in 1 Corinthians 3 may very well be good and bad Christians at the final judgment, and the fire will reveal which ones were saved and which were damned.
  zh: 哥林多前书第3章中的好坏材料很可能就是最后审判时的好坏基督徒，火将显明谁得救，谁被定罪。
- start: 648.467
  end: 657.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That coheres with verses 16 through 17, which say that you and I are God's temple, and if someone destroys God's temple—one of His redeemed creatures—God will destroy him.
  zh: 这与第16至17节相呼应，那里说你我是神的殿，若有人毁坏神的殿——他所救赎的受造物之一——神必要毁坏那人。
- start: 657.835
  end: 661.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Only God can destroy what He has created; no one else.
  zh: 只有神能毁坏他所创造的，别人不能。
- start: 661.212
  end: 669.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, if a worker's disciples were damned or burnt up at the judgment, the worker would not go to hell with them, but he would still be punished for his failure to shepherd them.
  zh: 现在，如果一个工人的门徒在审判时被定罪或被烧尽，这工人不会和他们一起下地狱，但他仍会因未能好好牧养他们而受惩罚。
- start: 670.199
  end: 676.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This corresponds with Hebrews 13:17. Could this be about merely judging the bad motivations of Christian workers, as James often says?
  zh: 这与希伯来书13:17相呼应。这是否仅仅关于审判基督徒工人的不良动机，就像詹姆斯经常说的那样？
- start: 676.223
  end: 676.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Maybe.
  zh: 也许是。
- start: 688.339
  end: 697.432
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it’s more natural to see the disciples as a Christian worker's work rather than his motivations, because the motivations are prior to any work that he does.
  zh: 但把门徒看作基督徒工人的工作而不是他的动机更为自然，因为动机是在他做任何工作之前就有的。
- start: 697.513
  end: 702.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Besides, motivations are not mentioned in 1 Corinthians 3 at all, at least related to this small part of the passage.
  zh: 此外，哥林多前书第3章根本没有提到动机，至少在这一小段中没有。
- start: 703.211
  end: 709.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even if James were right, bad motivations like pride are sins, and God punishes sins.
  zh: 即使詹姆斯是对的，骄傲这样的不良动机也是罪，而神会惩罚罪。
- start: 709.596
  end: 720.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Protestant scholar E.P. Sanders says of 1 Corinthians 3 that Paul is discussing people who will be saved, but they will be commended or lightly punished at the judgment depending on their deeds.
  zh: 新教学者桑德斯说，在哥林多前书第3章中，保罗讨论的是那些将要得救的人，但他们在审判时会根据自己的行为受到称赞或轻微惩罚。
- start: 720.585
  end: 731.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Paul confirms this in 2 Corinthians 5:10, where he writes, We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body.
  zh: 保罗在哥林多后书5:10中确认了这一点，他写道：我们众人必要在基督台前显露出来，叫各人按着本身所行的，或善或恶受报。
- start: 732.037
  end: 747.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, the phrase saved through, as in saved through fire, when it's joined with a noun in the genitive case, is overwhelmingly used in the Old Testament, Jewish literature, and the Church Fathers in an instrumental sense or as a reference to purification.
  zh: 事实上，「经过而得救」这个短语，如「从火里经过得救」，当它与所有格名词连用时，在旧约、犹太文献和教父著作中绝大多数都是作为工具性的意义或指向净化。
- start: 747.388
  end: 756.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That’s why Rabbi cited Zechariah 13:9 in reference to Gehenna: I will put this third into the fire and refine them as one refines silver.'
  zh: 这就是为什么拉比引用撒迦利亚书13:9来指代欣嫩子谷：我要使这三分之一经火，熬炼他们，如熬炼银子。
- start: 756.448
  end: 772.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The biblical scholar Daniel Frayer-Griggs, who claims the New Testament does not teach the Catholic doctrine of purgatory, admits, The fire of divine judgment on the day appears to be the circumstance through which the builder is purified of his sins and through which Christ saves.
  zh: 圣经学者丹尼尔·弗雷尔-格里格斯虽然声称新约没有教导公教会的炼狱教义，但他承认：在那日神审判的火似乎是建造者借以洁净其罪并借以得基督拯救的环境。
- start: 772.562
  end: 785.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The BDAG Greek Lexicon says the word loss in 1 Corinthians 3:15 reverts to punishment, and in ancient Greek temple inscriptions, the word referred to fines that were leveled against incompetent builders.
  zh: BDAG希腊文词典说，哥林多前书3:15中的「亏损」一词回归到惩罚的意思，在古希腊圣殿碑文中，这个词指的是对不称职建造者征收的罚款。
- start: 786.035
  end: 797.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, in his book The Roman Catholic Controversy, my opponent, like many Protestants, says the loss suffered in 1 Corinthians 3:15 is only a loss of reward and that it is not a punishment.
  zh: 然而，在他的著作《罗马公教会争议》中，我的对手和许多新教徒一样，说哥林多前书3:15中所受的亏损只是奖赏的损失，而不是惩罚。
- start: 797.777
  end: 801.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But even if that were true, my position would still be correct.
  zh: 但即使那是真的，我的立场仍然是正确的。
- start: 801.678
  end: 809.82
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As a parent, I punish my children all the time by taking away a reward they were promised; I’d call that unpleasant discipline, wouldn’t you?
  zh: 作为父母，我经常通过取消承诺给孩子的奖励来惩罚他们；我认为这是不愉快的管教，你不觉得吗？
- start: 810.32
  end: 815.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James even says in his book that it is terrifying to be in this position before God.
  zh: 詹姆斯在他的书中甚至说，在神面前处于这种境地是可怕的。
- start: 815.976
  end: 816.736
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 817.017
  end: 821.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are only terrified of God because of the unpleasant things He might do to us.
  zh: 我们害怕神只是因为他可能对我们做的不愉快的事。
- start: 822.08
  end: 826.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But God doesn’t arbitrarily cause us pain; He only does it for our good.
  zh: 但神不会任意使我们痛苦；他这样做只是为了我们的益处。
- start: 826.643
  end: 833.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So James admits it’s possible God may provide unpleasant discipline, as described in Hebrews 12, after death.
  zh: 所以詹姆斯承认神可能会在死后提供希伯来书12章所描述的不愉快的管教。
- start: 833.687
  end: 835.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s Premise Two of my argument.
  zh: 这就是我论据的第二个前提。
- start: 835.769
  end: 844.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, the Protestant author Randy Alcorn summarizes 1 Corinthians 3 in a way that also supports my argument in an article he wrote on heavenly rewards.
  zh: 事实上，新教作家兰迪·阿尔康在他写的一篇关于天上赏赐的文章中，对哥林多前书第3章的总结也支持我的论据。
- start: 844.875
  end: 845.735
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He writes...
  zh: 他写道……
- start: 846.647
  end: 856.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Maybe one way to say it is that the loss of rewards is, in some sense, permanent, but the suffering of that loss will be temporary.
  zh: 也许可以这样说，奖赏的损失在某种意义上是永久的，但承受这种损失的痛苦将是暂时的。
- start: 856.852
  end: 862.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God will do away with the suffering, but that is after the judgment, after our giving account to the Lord.
  zh: 神会除去这种痛苦，但那是在审判之后，在我们向主交账之后。
- start: 862.855
  end: 866.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The suffering of regret will be there at the judgment; how could it not be?
  zh: 在审判时会有后悔的痛苦；怎么可能没有呢？
- start: 866.977
  end: 873.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Before entrance to the eternal state, there will be the learning, the purifying, and the eternal rejoicing.
  zh: 在进入永恒状态之前，将会有学习、净化和永恒的喜乐。
- start: 873.669
  end: 882.494
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So Alcorn says that the suffering of loss in this passage leads to moral reform and purification before we rejoice in heaven, free from any attachment to sin.
  zh: 所以阿尔康说，这段经文中所说的亏损之苦会带来道德改革和净化，然后我们才能在天堂里欢喜，摆脱对罪的一切依恋。
- start: 882.494
  end: 885.356
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That sounds like purgatory to me.
  zh: 这听起来对我来说就是炼狱。
- start: 885.896
  end: 898.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In the second century, Irenaeus said, After death, but before heaven, each class of souls receives a habitation such as it has deserved, stating that Lazarus received refreshment while the evil rich man received torment.
  zh: 在二世纪，爱任纽说：「在死后但进入天堂之前，每类灵魂都得到它应得的居所」，他说拉撒路得到安息，而那恶财主受到折磨。
- start: 899.741
  end: 910.246
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'James has claimed that prayers in the early Church for refreshment for the dead (Latin: refrigerium) are only an appeal for an increase in the heavenly happiness of the dead.'
  zh: 詹姆斯声称早期教会为死者祈求安息（拉丁文：refrigerium）只是为增加死者在天堂的喜乐。
- start: 910.387
  end: 922.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, Cara Aspessi, in her 2021 article on refrigerium in the Academic Brill Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, says that in classical literature, the term denoted coolness or physical relief.
  zh: 然而，卡拉·阿斯佩西在2021年为《布里尔早期基督教百科全书》撰写的关于refrigerium的文章中说，在古典文学中，这个词表示凉爽或身体上的解脱。
- start: 922.613
  end: 937.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She writes of these requests that the use of the subjective demonstrates that final heavenly bliss is not envisioned; instead, that meaning of refrigerium, which referred to Hades, the interim region of either punishment or consolation, is likely in view.
  zh: 她写道，这些请求中使用虚拟语气表明它们并非指向最终的天堂福乐；相反，refrigerium更可能指的是阴间，一个或受惩罚或得安慰的中间地带。
- start: 938.173
  end: 950.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The third-century Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicity uses this same meaning when Perpetua prays for her dead brother, Denocrates, to have refreshment after seeing him suffering in the afterlife.
  zh: 三世纪的《佩尔佩图阿和费利西塔斯殉道记》使用了相同的含义，当佩尔佩图阿看到她已故的兄弟德诺克拉底在来世受苦时，为他祈求安息。
- start: 950.629
  end: 963.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Protestant author Carl Olson admits that Clement of Alexandria, who lived between the second and third century, imagined an afterlife where the correctable sinner experienced a fire that sanctifies and does not consume.
  zh: 新教作家卡尔·奥尔森承认，生活在二、三世纪之间的亚历山大的克莱门特设想了一个来世，在那里可改正的罪人经历使人成圣而不会毁灭的火。
- start: 963.436
  end: 968.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In The City of God, Augustine wrote of some who suffer temporary punishments after death.
  zh: 在《上帝之城》中，奥古斯丁写到一些人在死后受暂时的惩罚。
- start: 969.06
  end: 975.423
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In his writings, Augustine specifically uses the Latin phrase pene purgatoriae, or purgatorial punishments.
  zh: 在他的著作中，奥古斯丁特别使用了拉丁语短语pene purgatoriae，即炼狱的惩罚。
- start: 976.195
  end: 986.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Early Christian headstones, like those of the second-century Bishop Aversius, ask for prayers for the dead, which makes sense if some of the dead experience unpleasant correction after death.
  zh: 早期基督教墓碑，如二世纪主教阿维尔修斯的墓碑，都请求为死者祈祷，如果一些死者在死后经历不愉快的纠正，这就说得通了。
- start: 986.602
  end: 993.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Finally, none of these early Christian sources say that all believers immediately enter heaven after death without any purification.
  zh: 最后，这些早期基督教文献都没有说所有信徒死后立即进入天堂而不需要任何净化。
- start: 993.827
  end: 1002.433
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: According to Tertullian, For no one, on becoming absent from the body, is at once a dweller in the presence of the Lord, except by the prerogative of martyrdom.
  zh: 根据特土良的说法：「除了殉道者的特权外，没有人一离开身体就立即住在主的同在中。」
- start: 1002.591
  end: 1007.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, this purification comes from Christ and does not detract from Him.
  zh: 然而，这种净化来自基督，并不减损他的功劳。
- start: 1007.974
  end: 1017.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: According to Pope Benedict XVI, some recent theologians are of the opinion that the fire which both burns and saves is Christ Himself, the judge and savior.
  zh: 根据本笃十六世教宗的说法，一些近代神学家认为那既燃烧又拯救的火就是基督自己，审判者和救主。
- start: 1017.46
  end: 1024.2930000000001
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The account with Him is the decisive act of judgment; before His gaze, all falsehood melts away.
  zh: 与他清算是决定性的审判；在他的注视下，一切虚假都消融了。
- start: 1024.354
  end: 1036.182
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So to make his case, James has to do two things: He has to show that all believers immediately enter heaven after death and have no post-mortem discipline or purification, even though this is contradicted by Scripture and Christian history.'
  zh: 所以为了证明他的观点，詹姆斯必须做两件事：他必须证明所有信徒死后立即进入天堂，没有死后的管教或净化，尽管这与圣经和基督教历史相矛盾。
- start: 1036.656
  end: 1045.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Then he has to refute the two arguments that I offered: the argument from spiritual cleansing—God can purify Christians of their desire for sin; no one in heaven will desire sin.'
  zh: 然后他必须反驳我提出的两个论据：灵性净化的论据——神能洁净基督徒的罪欲；在天堂里没有人会渴望犯罪。
- start: 1045.903
  end: 1051.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some Christians still desire sin at the moment of death, so they’ll be purified before they enter into heaven.
  zh: 有些基督徒在死亡时刻仍有犯罪的欲望，所以他们在进入天堂之前会被净化。
- start: 1051.467
  end: 1057.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Then there’s the argument from moral correction: When Christians sin, God unpleasantly disciplines them to morally perfect them.'
  zh: 然后是道德纠正的论据：当基督徒犯罪时，神会通过不愉快的管教使他们在道德上完全。
- start: 1057.492
  end: 1064.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Some sins are not unpleasantly disciplined in this life; therefore, God unpleasantly disciplines some Christians after death.
  zh: 有些罪在今生没有受到不愉快的管教；因此，神会在死后通过不愉快的管教管教一些基督徒。
- start: 1066.26
  end: 1074.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If James cannot show what’s wrong with these arguments, then you should reject his case and believe in the doctrine of purgatory instead.
  zh: 如果詹姆斯不能指出这些论据有什么问题，那么你们就应该拒绝他的观点，而相信炼狱的教义。
- start: 1074.15
  end: 1074.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 1086.826
  end: 1087.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, good evening!
  zh: 晚上好！
- start: 1087.686
  end: 1091.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s good to be back with you again this evening on a very, very different topic.
  zh: 今晚能在一个非常非常不同的话题上再次与你们相聚真好。
- start: 1091.589
  end: 1103.455
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I’d like to begin with a little more formal definition of purgatory from a well-known resource: Dr. Ludwig Ott''s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.'
  zh: 我想从一个著名的资源开始，对炼狱做一个更正式的定义：路德维希·奥特博士的《公教教义基础》。
- start: 1103.455
  end: 1115.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I wish it had been bound a little better, but anyway, speculatively, the existence of the cleansing fire can be derived from the concept of the sanctity and justice of God.
  zh: 我希望它能装订得更好一些，但无论如何，从理论上讲，净化之火的存在可以从神的圣洁和公义的概念中推导出来。
- start: 1115.581
  end: 1132.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The former demands that only completely pure souls be assumed into heaven; that was just given to us from Revelation 21. The latter demands that the punishments of sins still present be meted out, but on the other hand forbids that souls united in love with God should be cast into hell.
  zh: 前者要求只有完全纯洁的灵魂才能被接入天堂，这正是启示录21章告诉我们的。后者要求对仍然存在的罪进行惩罚，但另一方面又禁止将在爱中与神联合的灵魂投入地狱。
- start: 1132.795
  end: 1140.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Therefore, an intermediate state is to be assumed, whose purpose is final purification and which, for this reason, is of limited duration.
  zh: 因此，必须假设有一个中间状态，其目的是最终的净化，因此是有限时间的。
- start: 1140.699
  end: 1160.582
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now I want to point out, aside from the fact that purgatory is yet another dogmatically defined concept within Roman Catholicism, that in the modern period, the language that Rome and Roman Catholic apologists use to describe it has changed really radically over about the past 70 years.
  zh: 现在我想指出，除了炼狱是罗马公教会中另一个教条性定义的概念这一事实外，在现代时期，罗马和罗马公教会护教者用来描述它的语言在过去约70年中发生了真正的根本变化。
- start: 1161.142
  end: 1174.575
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'You’ll notice, for example, that Ott says this: The remission of the venial sins which are not yet remitted occurs, according to the teaching of St. Thomas, in this life by an act of contrition deriving from charity and performed with the help of grace.'
  zh: 例如，你会注意到奥特是这样说的：根据圣托马斯的教导，尚未赦免的小罪的赦免，是在今生通过出于爱德并在恩典帮助下完成的痛悔行为而发生的。
- start: 1174.575
  end: 1189.026
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The act of contrition, which is presumably awakened immediately after entry into the purifying fire, does not, however, affect the abrogation or the diminution of the punishment for sins, since in the other world, there is no longer any possibility of merit.
  zh: 然而，据推测在进入净化之火后立即唤起的痛悔行为，并不影响对罪的惩罚的废除或减轻，因为在来世已经没有任何获得功德的可能。
- start: 1189.247
  end: 1192.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Catch this: the temporal punishments for sins.'
  zh: 注意这一点：罪的暂时惩罚。
- start: 1193.319
  end: 1234.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I’m a little surprised, I’ll be perfectly honest, that in making this presentation, Trent hasn’t used the language that Rome has used in defining her own dogma, that this is a place of purification not just from attachment to sin, but the remission of temporal punishments for sins, and that this takes place by our suffering.
  zh: 所以我说实话有点惊讶，在这个演讲中，特伦特没有使用罗马在定义其教条时使用的语言，即这不仅是一个从罪的依恋中净化的地方，而且是通过我们的受苦来赦免罪的暂时惩罚的地方。
- start: 1236.931
  end: 1245.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I can understand why he wouldn’t want to defend indulgences, but in Roman Catholic theology, they are intimately connected—and that’s in the Catechism as well.
  zh: 我能理解为什么他不想为大赦辩护，但在罗马公教神学中，这些是密切相关的——这也在《教理》中。
- start: 1246.198
  end: 1254.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that is the idea of the treasury of merit—the excess merit of Jesus, Mary, and the saints put into the treasury of merit.
  zh: 这就是功德宝库的概念——耶稣、马利亚和圣徒们的多余功德被放入功德宝库。
- start: 1254.338
  end: 1269.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If they withdraw from that treasury of merit applied to a soul in purgatory, then somehow that would in some way hasten this process of being made more like Christ and purification so you can enter into the presence of God.
  zh: 如果他们从功德宝库中提取功德应用于炼狱中的灵魂，那么这somehow会以某种方式加快使人更像基督和净化的过程，这样你就能进入神的同在。
- start: 1269.72
  end: 1272.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a very, very different concept.
  zh: 这是一个非常非常不同的概念。
- start: 1272.481
  end: 1283.789
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Of course, I’ll be showing you some books later on that I would recommend if you want to really understand what has been understood about the subject of purgatory.
  zh: 当然，如果你想真正理解人们对炼狱这个主题的认识，我稍后会向你推荐一些书。
- start: 1284.47
  end: 1295.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s plainly said by people like Cardinal Bellarmine that purgatory could not possibly be as short as 10 or 20 years and could possibly be many hundreds of years in length.
  zh: 贝拉明枢机等人明确表示，炼狱不可能短至10或20年，可能会持续数百年之久。
- start: 1295.985
  end: 1309.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this is a self-undergoing of suffering, satis-passio, that removes the temporal punishments of sin that are necessary before you can enter into the presence of God.
  zh: 所以这是一种自我承受的苦难，satis-passio，在你能进入神的同在之前，必须通过这种苦难来消除罪的暂时惩罚。
- start: 1309.854
  end: 1315.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not just the idea that we need to be sanctified; we need to be made in the image of Christ.
  zh: 这不仅仅是我们需要成圣的概念；我们需要被造成基督的形象。
- start: 1315.318
  end: 1327.711
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, yes, that’s what God’s doing, and everything that Trent quoted from the New Testament about Christ disciplining His children and conforming us to the image of Christ—we believe all of that.
  zh: 是的，这就是神在做的事，特伦特从新约中引用的关于基督管教他的儿女并使我们效法基督形象的一切——我们都相信。
- start: 1327.711
  end: 1334.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that is not because of the temporal punishments of sins; that is making us like Jesus Christ.
  zh: 但这不是因为罪的暂时惩罚；这是使我们像耶稣基督。
- start: 1334.974
  end: 1338.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s the whole purpose of God’s work of election.
  zh: 这是神拣选工作的全部目的。
- start: 1338.576
  end: 1341.037
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'You look at Ephesians chapter 1: What’s it all about?'
  zh: 你看以弗所书第1章：这一切都是关于什么？
- start: 1341.037
  end: 1344.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Being in Christ and being conformed to His image.
  zh: 在基督里并效法他的形象。
- start: 1345.252
  end: 1369.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So it’s a very different concept because what we’re talking about, really historically with Roman Catholicism—and I recognize modern Roman Catholicism; I doubt Francis actually believes this, I really, really do—but at least the orthodox view is represented by someone like Ludwig Ott: this is not just a state; it is a place that has temporality to it.'
  zh: 所以这是一个非常不同的概念，因为我们所讨论的，从历史上看是罗马公教会的观点——我承认现代罗马公教会的观点；我怀疑方济各是否真的相信这一点，我真的很怀疑——但至少正统观点由路德维希·奥特这样的人代表：这不仅仅是一种状态；它是一个有时间性的地方。
- start: 1370.596
  end: 1377.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Having indulgences for tens and twenties and thirties of years would make no sense whatsoever if that were not the case.
  zh: 如果不是这样的话，给予十年、二十年和三十年的大赦就毫无意义了。
- start: 1377.98
  end: 1388.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it is punishment that must be undergone before you can enter into the presence of the Father.
  zh: 而且这是在你能进入圣父同在之前必须经历的惩罚。
- start: 1389.425
  end: 1393.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what passages were brought forward to present that kind of a concept?
  zh: 那么，有哪些经文被提出来表达这种概念？
- start: 1393.167
  end: 1397.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, the only one really was 1 Corinthians chapter 3. So let’s look at it.
  zh: 好吧，真正的只有哥林多前书第3章。让我们来看看。
- start: 1397.709
  end: 1408.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’ll look at a couple others as they were mentioned quickly, like paying the last penny, as if that’s what Jesus is talking about with eschatology and punishment for temporal punishments of sin and stuff like that.
  zh: 我们会快速看看其他几处提到的经文，比如还清最后一分钱，好像耶稣说的就是关于末世论和罪的暂时惩罚之类的事。
- start: 1408.557
  end: 1411.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, let’s look at 1 Corinthians chapter 3. Let’s take a look at it.
  zh: 不，让我们看看哥林多前书第3章。让我们来看看。
- start: 1411.298
  end: 1412.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s very, very important.
  zh: 这非常非常重要。
- start: 1412.798
  end: 1421.12
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m sure we’ll be looking much more closely at it during cross-examination because Paul is talking about the ministry there in Corinth.
  zh: 我相信在交叉询问时我们会更仔细地看这段经文，因为保罗在这里谈论的是在哥林多的事工。
- start: 1421.12
  end: 1431.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says, “According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise architect, I laid a foundation, and others are building upon it.
  zh: 他说：「我照神所给我的恩，好像一个聪明的工头，立好了根基，有别人在上面建造。」
- start: 1431.603
  end: 1436.105
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let each one be careful how he builds upon it.”
  zh: 「各人要谨慎怎样在上面建造。」
- start: 1436.265
  end: 1437.906
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what’s he talking about here?
  zh: 那么他在这里说的是什么？
- start: 1437.966
  end: 1440.367
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is he talking about stuff after this life?
  zh: 他是在谈论今生之后的事情吗？
- start: 1440.367
  end: 1442.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He’s talking about there in Corinth.
  zh: 他说的是在哥林多的事。
- start: 1443.449
  end: 1449.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do Christian leaders build upon the foundation that Paul has laid?
  zh: 基督徒领袖如何在保罗所立的根基上建造？
- start: 1449.673
  end: 1455.596
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says, “For no other foundation can be laid other than that which has been laid, which is Jesus Christ.
  zh: 他说：「因为那已经立好的根基就是耶稣基督，此外没有人能立别的根基。」
- start: 1456.056
  end: 1468.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And if anyone builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, what will be made manifest?
  zh: 「若有人用金、银、宝石、草木、禾秸在这根基上建造，各人的工程必然显露。」
- start: 1468.982
  end: 1476.666
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: His work will be made manifest, for the day will show it.”
  zh: 「因为那日子要将它表明出来。」
- start: 1476.666
  end: 1477.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is that day?
  zh: 那日子是什么？
- start: 1477.426
  end: 1480.816
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, it’s the Day of the Lord; it’s the Day of Judgment.
  zh: 是主的日子，是审判的日子。
- start: 1481.377
  end: 1492.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what is going to take place at that time is a manifestation of the character of the work that has been built upon that foundation.
  zh: 所以在那时要发生的是显明建造在那根基上的工程的性质。
- start: 1492.28
  end: 1504.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The day will demonstrate that; the day will show what that is because it will be apocalyptic; it will be revealed by fire.
  zh: 那日子会证明这一点；那日子会显明那是什么，因为它将是末世性的；它将被火显明。
- start: 1504.924
  end: 1507.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What does fire have to do with that?
  zh: 火与此有什么关系？
- start: 1507.185
  end: 1512.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, what’s the difference between gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and straw?
  zh: 那么，金、银、宝石与草木、禾秸有什么区别？
- start: 1512.73
  end: 1514.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What’s the difference between these things?
  zh: 这些东西之间有什么区别？
- start: 1514.611
  end: 1519.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, if you put gold in the fire, what’s the result?
  zh: 如果你把金子放在火里，结果会怎样？
- start: 1519.215
  end: 1523.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It becomes more purified; you remove impurities from it.
  zh: 它会变得更纯净；杂质会被除去。
- start: 1523.878
  end: 1529.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But wood, hay, and straw—you introduce them to fire, and they are destroyed; they disappear.
  zh: 但草木、禾秸——你把它们放入火中，它们就被毁灭了；它们就消失了。
- start: 1529.902
  end: 1532.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They cannot stand the presence of the fire.
  zh: 它们无法在火的同在中存留。
- start: 1532.864
  end: 1540.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For it says the fire will prove or demonstrate the nature of these works, of what they are made.
  zh: 因为经上说火要试验或显明这些工程的本质，显明它们是用什么造的。
- start: 1541.388
  end: 1542.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s what he’s saying.
  zh: 这就是他所说的。
- start: 1542.809
  end: 1544.47
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s very, very clear.
  zh: 这非常非常清楚。
- start: 1544.79
  end: 1561.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If a certain one’s work—not just if a certain one, but if a certain one’s work—remains, which he has built and produced, he will receive a reward.
  zh: 如果某人的工程——不仅仅是某人，而是某人的工程——存留，就是他所建造所做成的，他就要得赏赐。
- start: 1562.024
  end: 1570.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But if a certain one’s work is destroyed and consumed, he will suffer loss.
  zh: 但如果某人的工程被毁坏和烧毁，他就要受亏损。
- start: 1570.271
  end: 1575.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When Paul uses it, he says, “I am willing to suffer loss of all things for the sake of Christ.”
  zh: 当保罗使用这个词时，他说：「我为基督的缘故，情愿受万物的亏损。」
- start: 1575.315
  end: 1576.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s the same term.
  zh: 这是同一个词。
- start: 1576.836
  end: 1579.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Paul wasn’t saying, “I’m willing to be punished of all things for the sake of Christ.”
  zh: 保罗并不是在说：「我愿意为基督的缘故受万物的惩罚。」
- start: 1579.618
  end: 1581.239
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not what he was talking about.
  zh: 这不是他所说的意思。
- start: 1581.707
  end: 1584.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you can find other places where this term is used.
  zh: 所以你可以找到其他使用这个词的地方。
- start: 1584.788
  end: 1589.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But when Paul uses it, he’s using it in terms of suffering loss.
  zh: 但当保罗使用它时，他是在说受亏损的意思。
- start: 1590.829
  end: 1596.99
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says he will suffer loss, yet he himself will be saved, yet so as through the fire.
  zh: 他说他要受亏损，虽然他自己要得救，却要像从火里经过的一样。
- start: 1597.37
  end: 1616.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, if my works are examined by God on that final day, and He knows the intentions of my heart—He knows the intentions of all of our hearts—on that final day, He’s going to reveal why everyone did what they did.
  zh: 现在，如果我的工程在那最后的日子被神察验，他知道我心中的意图——他知道我们所有人心中的意图——在那最后的日子，他要显明每个人为什么做他们所做的事。
- start: 1616.686
  end: 1618.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, is that connected to me?
  zh: 现在，这与我有关联吗？
- start: 1619.067
  end: 1621.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that something that will reveal something about me?
  zh: 这是否会显明一些关于我的事？
- start: 1621.067
  end: 1630.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, of course, but it’s through the demonstration of those works which were built upon the foundation.
  zh: 当然，但这是通过那些建造在根基上的工程的显明。
- start: 1630.311
  end: 1637.815
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There is nothing here about different kinds of sins, mortal or venial sins.
  zh: 这里没有提到不同种类的罪，致死的罪或小罪。
- start: 1637.815
  end: 1640.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s nothing here about temporal punishments.
  zh: 这里没有提到暂时的惩罚。
- start: 1640.496
  end: 1644.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s nothing here about satis-passio.
  zh: 这里没有提到satis-passio（补赎之苦）。
- start: 1644.178
  end: 1660.666
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are all concepts that come centuries and centuries and centuries later, and they go against, at their fundamental foundational level, how Paul believed that any of us will ever stand before God.
  zh: 这些都是几个世纪几个世纪之后才出现的概念，而且从根本层面上违背了保罗所相信的我们任何人将如何站在神面前。
- start: 1661.487
  end: 1664.128
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do we stand before God?
  zh: 我们如何站在神面前？
- start: 1664.653
  end: 1675.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Do we stand before God in a robe that is made up of the righteousness of Christ, Mary, and the saints from the thesaurus meritorum, the treasury of merit?
  zh: 我们站在神面前时，是穿着由基督、马利亚和圣徒们的义从功德宝库（thesaurus meritorum）中取出而制成的袍子吗？
- start: 1677.099
  end: 1684.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you receive indulgences, then that’s going to be part of your standing before God.
  zh: 如果你领受大赦，那就会成为你站在神面前的一部分。
- start: 1685.523
  end: 1693.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Are we standing before God in a robe that includes our own suffering, our own satis-passio in this life or in the next?
  zh: 我们站在神面前时，是穿着包含我们自己在今生或来世的受苦、我们自己的补赎之苦的袍子吗？
- start: 1694.272
  end: 1700.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Or do we stand before God robed in the seamless righteousness of Jesus Christ?
  zh: 还是我们站在神面前是穿着耶稣基督无缝的义袍？
- start: 1700.975
  end: 1711.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
  zh: 神使那无罪的替我们成为罪，好叫我们在他里面成为神的义。
- start: 1711.521
  end: 1716.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now look, I can quote, quote-unquote, Protestant scholars who don’t even think that’s about you and me.
  zh: 看，我可以引用那些甚至不认为这是关于你我的新教学者的话。
- start: 1716.443
  end: 1718.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: N.T. Wright doesn’t think that it is.
  zh: 赖特不认为是这样。
- start: 1719.377
  end: 1727.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the reality is that is the great exchange; that is the foundation upon which any of us can have peace with God.
  zh: 但现实是这就是那伟大的交换；这是我们任何人能与神和好的根基。
- start: 1727.085
  end: 1731.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s why this topic is so vitally important.
  zh: 这就是为什么这个话题如此重要。
- start: 1731.67
  end: 1736.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I believe purgatory is a doctrine that developed over the course of at least 1,400 years.
  zh: 我认为炼狱是一个至少经过1400年才发展成形的教义。
- start: 1739.233
  end: 1746.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you look at any of the people that Trent cited in that early period of time, they did not have a developed doctrine of purgatory—as Roman Catholic scholarship admits.
  zh: 当你看特伦特引用的那个早期时期的任何人，他们都没有发展成熟的炼狱教义——正如罗马公教会的学者所承认的。
- start: 1746.059
  end: 1749.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They did not have a fully formed understanding of it.
  zh: 他们对此并没有完全成形的理解。
- start: 1749.202
  end: 1754.526
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All you can do is point to, Well, here’s a little piece here, here’s a little piece there; you put this and that together, and then this develops.
  zh: 你所能做的就是指出，好吧，这里有一小块，那里有一小块；你把这个那个拼在一起，然后它就发展了。
- start: 1754.526
  end: 1761.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then Gregory the Great hears about these visions that people had about the afterlife.
  zh: 然后大贵格利听说了人们关于来世的这些异象。
- start: 1761.572
  end: 1772.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My goodness, read the book by F.X. Schoup on purgatory—vision after vision after vision after vision—and it all eventually comes together and is dogmatically defined.
  zh: 天啊，读读F.X.舒普关于炼狱的书——一个接一个的异象——最后这一切都汇集在一起并被教条性地定义了。
- start: 1772.521
  end: 1787.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even though I would say the clarity of its definition hundreds of years ago is far clearer than it is today, modern Rome is somewhat embarrassed by the clarity of the doctrine as it was taught at the time of the Reformation.
  zh: 虽然我要说几百年前它的定义比今天清晰得多，现代罗马对宗教改革时期所教导的教义的清晰度感到有些尴尬。
- start: 1788.554
  end: 1792.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But what does that tell us about the fundamental differences between us?
  zh: 但这告诉我们什么关于我们之间的根本差异？
- start: 1794.222
  end: 1809.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It tells us that when Paul speaks and lays out what the gospel is—what gives us peace with God—Romans 5 says, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”
  zh: 这告诉我们，当保罗讲述并阐明福音是什么——什么给我们与神的和平——罗马书5章说：「我们既因信称义，就藉着我们的主耶稣基督得与神相和。」
- start: 1809.533
  end: 1810.713
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do you get to that point?
  zh: 你如何达到那一点？
- start: 1810.713
  end: 1813.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, that’s what Romans 3 and 4 are about.
  zh: 这就是罗马书第3章和第4章所讲的。
- start: 1813.816
  end: 1823.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As you follow the argument through, you get into chapter 4, and Paul talks about righteousness being imputed to those who do not work.
  zh: 当你跟随这个论述，进入第4章，保罗谈到义归给那不做工的人。
- start: 1824.415
  end: 1829.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those who work receive a wage that is due to them.
  zh: 做工的得工价是应当的。
- start: 1829.377
  end: 1838.101
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the one who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly—his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness.
  zh: 但那不做工的，只信称罪人为义的神，他的信就算为义。
- start: 1838.101
  end: 1847.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then immediately he says, “David spoke of the blessedness upon the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.”
  zh: 然后他立即说：「大卫称那在行为以外蒙神算为义的人是有福的。」
- start: 1848.205
  end: 1853.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s the works that come right before that—not E.P. Sanders, not N.T. Wright, not all the rest of that stuff.
  zh: 这就是在那之前提到的行为——不是桑德斯，不是赖特，不是所有其他那些东西。
- start: 1853.877
  end: 1858.56
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s the works that are mentioned right before that, the contrast between believing and working.
  zh: 是在那之前提到的行为，是在相信和做工之间的对比。
- start: 1859.602
  end: 1874.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then to demonstrate what it means to have righteousness imputed to you, he quotes from Psalm 32, saying, “Blessed is the man whose sins the Lord has forgiven, whose sins are covered over.”
  zh: 然后为了说明被算为义是什么意思，他引用诗篇32篇说：「得赦免其过、遮盖其罪的，这人是有福的。」
- start: 1874.493
  end: 1882.413
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then he says, “Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”
  zh: 然后他说：「主不算为有罪的，这人是有福的。」
- start: 1882.413
  end: 1900.163
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So one of the conversations that we need to have this evening is: Who is that blessed man, and what does it mean that Paul could interpret the non-imputation of sin as the positive imputation of righteousness?'
  zh: 所以今晚我们需要讨论的一个话题是：那有福的人是谁，保罗为什么能将不算为有罪解释为积极地算为义？
- start: 1900.163
  end: 1908.688
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because that’s what Romans 4:6, with the quotation in verses 7–8, is showing.
  zh: 因为这就是罗马书4:6以及第7-8节的引文所显示的。
- start: 1908.688
  end: 1909.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, why is this important to you or not?
  zh: 现在，为什么这对你来说重要或不重要？
- start: 1909.909
  end: 1910.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s real simple.
  zh: 这很简单。
- start: 1912.301
  end: 1913.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How can you have peace with God?
  zh: 你如何能与神和好？
- start: 1915.203
  end: 1929.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you wake up in the morning knowing your own heart, knowing the lust of your flesh, knowing the impurity of your words, and knowing the holiness of God, how can you have peace with Him?
  zh: 当你早晨醒来，知道自己的内心，知道肉体的情欲，知道言语的不洁，又知道神的圣洁，你如何能与他和好？
- start: 1930.873
  end: 1943.925
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How can you know that if your life ends on this day, you will enter into His presence and not spend 10, 20, 30, 40, or 100 years undergoing satis-passio?
  zh: 你如何能知道，如果你今天生命终结，你将进入他的同在，而不是花10年、20年、30年、40年或100年经历补赎之苦？
- start: 1943.925
  end: 1945.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do you have that peace?
  zh: 你如何获得那样的平安？
- start: 1946.227
  end: 1965.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only way—and we don't believe the same thing about this—the only way you can have that peace is if you recognize that a true believer in Jesus Christ is a person who has received His righteousness, not only in the sense of the forgiveness of all of my sins, but His positive righteousness.
  zh: 唯一的方式——我们在这点上看法不同——唯一能获得那平安的方式是，如果你认识到一个真正相信耶稣基督的人是已经领受了他的义的人，不仅是在赦免我一切罪的意义上，还有他积极的义。
- start: 1965.499
  end: 1973.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He has loved the Father perfectly, and when I receive His righteousness, then I am seen in Him.
  zh: 他完全地爱了圣父，当我领受他的义时，我就在他里面被看见。
- start: 1974.02
  end: 1978.443
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s how we have peace, and that’s really what we’re talking about this evening.
  zh: 这就是我们如何得到平安，这也是我们今晚真正要讨论的。
- start: 1978.683
  end: 1980.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you for your attention.
  zh: 谢谢你们的关注。
- start: 1994.655
  end: 2007.277
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What you just heard from James was not an opening statement; it was a rebuttal and an assertion that his particular view about the gospel and imputation means that there is no such thing as purgatory.
  zh: 你们刚才从詹姆斯那里听到的不是开场陈述；而是一个反驳和断言，说他对福音和归算的特定观点意味着根本没有炼狱这回事。
- start: 2007.638
  end: 2008.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That was it.
  zh: 就是这样。
- start: 2008.74
  end: 2012.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s all that he offered you tonight to believe that the doctrine of purgatory is false.
  zh: 这就是他今晚给你们提供的全部内容，让你们相信炼狱的教义是错误的。
- start: 2012.739
  end: 2014.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What are some things he didn’t say?
  zh: 他没有说的一些事情是什么？
- start: 2014.501
  end: 2024.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn’t cite any Bible verse that says that all believers enter heaven immediately at death and that they undergo no post-mortem purification or punishment.
  zh: 他没有引用任何圣经经文说所有信徒在死后立即进入天堂，也没有经历死后的净化或惩罚。
- start: 2024.25
  end: 2033.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn’t cite any Scripture about the afterlife to support his view, whereas I did cite Scriptures that describe the afterlife and support my view.
  zh: 他没有引用任何关于来世的经文来支持他的观点，而我引用了描述来世并支持我观点的经文。
- start: 2033.839
  end: 2036.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And how did James react to them?
  zh: 詹姆斯是如何回应它们的？
- start: 2036.311
  end: 2043.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'When I cited Matthew chapter 5 about paying the last penny, he gave a scoffer''s response: “Oh, it doesn’t mean that.'
  zh: 当我引用马太福音第5章关于还清最后一分钱的经文时，他给出了一个嘲笑的回应：「哦，它不是那个意思。
- start: 2043.856
  end: 2047.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sorry, you’re going to have to do a little bit better than that.”
  zh: 对不起，你得说得更好一点。」
- start: 2047.118
  end: 2050.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And he said, “Oh, like that has anything to do with eschatology.”
  zh: 他说：「哦，好像那跟末世论有什么关系似的。」
- start: 2050.78
  end: 2055.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Except Matthew 5:21-30 is all about what happens to us after death.
  zh: 但马太福音5:21-30全都是关于我们死后会发生什么。
- start: 2055.743
  end: 2059.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That lust can send you to hell, and anger can send you to Gehenna.
  zh: 情欲能使你下地狱，愤怒能使你下地狱。
- start: 2059.486
  end: 2063.007
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the scoffer's response will simply not work there.
  zh: 所以嘲笑的回应在这里根本行不通。
- start: 2063.088
  end: 2071.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The same with 1 Corinthians chapter 3. He told a great story; he said it’s just about revealing the motivations that different workers have.
  zh: 哥林多前书第3章也是一样。他讲了一个很好的故事；他说这只是关于揭示不同工人的动机。
- start: 2071.458
  end: 2084.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Read 1 Corinthians 3, verses 10 through 15 for yourself, and ask yourself: If you’re standing there at the final judgment and God burns up these works related to you, what shall you suffer loss?'
  zh: 自己读哥林多前书3章10至15节，问问自己：如果你站在最后的审判中，神烧毁了与你有关的这些工程，你要受什么亏损？
- start: 2084.581
  end: 2085.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What are you losing?
  zh: 你失去的是什么？
- start: 2086.081
  end: 2095.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I cited a competent, well-respected Greek lexicon that says the loss being referred to in 1 Corinthians 3:15 is a punishment.
  zh: 我引用了一本权威的、备受尊重的希腊文词典，说哥林多前书3:15中提到的亏损是一种惩罚。
- start: 2095.32
  end: 2099.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Greek word is zemiao, and James says, “Oh well, Paul uses ‘loss.’
  zh: 希腊文是zemiao，而詹姆斯说：「哦，保罗用的是『亏损』。
- start: 2099.763
  end: 2101.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not the way Paul uses the word.”
  zh: 这不是保罗使用这个词的方式。
- start: 2101.925
  end: 2107.749
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Paul uses words in different ways in different contexts; he hasn’t rebutted anything that I put there.
  zh: 保罗在不同的上下文中以不同的方式使用词语；他没有反驳我提出的任何内容。
- start: 2108.3
  end: 2115.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Also, James really manifested a severe lack of understanding of the doctrine of purgatory.
  zh: 而且，詹姆斯真的表现出对炼狱教义的严重缺乏理解。
- start: 2115.165
  end: 2121.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What’s interesting is that I cited from the official teaching of the Catholic Church, the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
  zh: 有趣的是，我引用的是公教会的官方教导，《公教会教理》。
- start: 2121.189
  end: 2126.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James cited from one theologian who’s respected, but a theologian, and from other sources.
  zh: 詹姆斯引用了一位受尊重的神学家，但那只是一位神学家，还有其他来源。
- start: 2126.672
  end: 2136.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you're going to critique another view, you ought to represent the official teachings of that view, not just private thoughts and articulations of it, and you should get the view right.
  zh: 当你要批评另一种观点时，你应该代表那种观点的官方教导，而不仅仅是私人的想法和表述，而且你应该正确理解这种观点。
- start: 2136.879
  end: 2139.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, what is satis-passio?
  zh: 例如，什么是satis-passio（补赎之苦）？
- start: 2139.481
  end: 2144.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Satis-passio is not us working in purgatory to cleanse ourselves to get out of it.
  zh: 补赎之苦不是我们在炼狱中努力洁净自己以脱离炼狱。
- start: 2144.585
  end: 2155.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Catholic Encyclopedia says satis-passio is often spoken of in a loose sense as satisfaction.
  zh: 《公教百科全书》说补赎之苦常在宽泛的意义上被称为满足。
- start: 2155.353
  end: 2160.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Satis-passio is a completely passive process where God cleanses us.
  zh: 补赎之苦是一个完全被动的过程，是神在洁净我们。
- start: 2160.637
  end: 2170.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I quoted from Pope Benedict XVI in an encyclical where he reflects upon theologians who say that this purifying process is just the encounter with Christ, where all falsehood melts away.
  zh: 我引用了本笃十六世在一份通谕中的话，他在其中反思神学家们所说的这个净化过程只是与基督相遇，所有的虚假都在其中消融。
- start: 2170.804
  end: 2172.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We don’t do anything.
  zh: 我们什么都不做。
- start: 2172.466
  end: 2176.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The souls that are in purgatory rest from their labors, as Hebrews 4:10 says.
  zh: 在炼狱中的灵魂从他们的劳苦中安息，就像希伯来书4:10所说的。
- start: 2176.509
  end: 2179.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They know that they’re saved; they know that they will not sin anymore.
  zh: 他们知道自己已经得救；他们知道他们不会再犯罪。
- start: 2179.892
  end: 2183.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if anything, they have joy that they’re going to enter into heaven.
  zh: 所以如果说有什么的话，他们因将要进入天堂而喜乐。
- start: 2183.434
  end: 2190.58
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And there’s no magisterial teaching that the joy of purgatory is outweighed by the suffering there.
  zh: 而且没有任何训导权的教导说炼狱中的痛苦超过了喜乐。
- start: 2190.58
  end: 2198.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That while in this process of being purified, they recognize they can now rest from their labors while they undergo what has been the technical term, satis-passio.
  zh: 在这个被净化的过程中，他们认识到他们现在可以从劳苦中安息，同时经历这个专业术语所说的补赎之苦。
- start: 2198.085
  end: 2204.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he said we don’t undergo satis-passio in this life, which shows he doesn’t understand the concept.
  zh: 但他说我们在今生不经历补赎之苦，这表明他不理解这个概念。
- start: 2204.21
  end: 2208.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, satisfaction—some people think, “Oh, satisfaction is just what Christ did on the cross.”
  zh: 现在，满足——有些人认为：「哦，满足只是基督在十字架上所做的。」
- start: 2208.351
  end: 2218.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'No, satisfaction, expiation, reparations, atonement; they all generally mean the same thing: to make up for something that was done to make reparations.'
  zh: 不，满足、赎罪、补偿、赎罪；它们通常都是指同一件事：为已做的事作出补偿。
- start: 2218.173
  end: 2227.455
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, only Christ, the God-man, can give expiation, satisfaction, atonement, and reparation for the eternal consequence of sin for fully turning away from God.
  zh: 现在，只有基督，这位神人，才能为完全背离神的罪的永恒后果提供赎罪、满足、赎罪和补偿。
- start: 2227.455
  end: 2233.196
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can’t do that because we’re sinners; we have nothing to offer God except what God already gave us.
  zh: 我们不能这样做因为我们是罪人；除了神已经给我们的，我们没有什么可以献给神的。
- start: 2233.479
  end: 2238.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if we fully turn away from God, only the merits of Christ can bring us back to God.
  zh: 所以如果我们完全背离神，只有基督的功德能使我们回到神那里。
- start: 2238.862
  end: 2248.487
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, when we partly turn away from God—when we, as Christians, sin—God, as a loving Father, will gently turn us back to Him.
  zh: 然而，当我们部分背离神时——当我们作为基督徒犯罪时——神作为慈爱的父，会温柔地使我们回转向他。
- start: 2248.927
  end: 2251.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James talked about the temporal debt of punishment.
  zh: 詹姆斯谈到了暂时的惩罚债务。
- start: 2251.529
  end: 2255.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not a legal debt that we have to pay to satisfy some kind of divine ledger.
  zh: 这不是我们必须偿还以满足某种神圣账本的法律债务。
- start: 2255.391
  end: 2261.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Rather, God, as a heavenly Father and as the divine creator of the universe, has what’s called an order of justice.
  zh: 相反，神作为天父和宇宙的创造者，有所谓的公义秩序。
- start: 2261.514
  end: 2268.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God creates the universe, and it’s supposed to work a certain way because He’s perfect, all-knowing, and all-good, but we human beings have free will, and we mess that up.
  zh: 神创造宇宙，它应该以某种方式运作，因为他是完美的、全知的、全善的，但我们人类有自由意志，我们把它搞乱了。
- start: 2268.738
  end: 2277.003
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, one of the ways the universe is supposed to work is that when you do good, you feel good, and when you do bad, you feel bad.
  zh: 例如，宇宙应该运作的方式之一是当你行善时，你感觉良好，当你作恶时，你感觉不好。
- start: 2277.003
  end: 2277.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s how we’re supposed to feel.
  zh: 这就是我们应该有的感受。
- start: 2277.983
  end: 2279.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But why do we sin?
  zh: 但为什么我们犯罪？
- start: 2279.284
  end: 2282.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, a lot of times we sin because we feel good when we sin.
  zh: 嗯，很多时候我们犯罪是因为我们在犯罪时感觉良好。
- start: 2282.826
  end: 2287.368
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That was what Pope Paul VI called a perturbation in the universal order.
  zh: 这就是保禄六世所说的宇宙秩序的扰乱。
- start: 2287.921
  end: 2301.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because God has planned that it is fitting that if we’re going to feel good when we do bad, then to reorder us into perfect harmony with Him, we will feel bad for doing bad; we will have sorrow.
  zh: 因为神已经计划，如果我们在作恶时感觉良好，那么为了使我们重新与他完全和谐，我们将为作恶感到不好；我们将有忧伤。
- start: 2301.178
  end: 2311.564
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now I’ve already shown, in citing the Catechism, paragraph 1472, that by a fervent act of charity, one can remit all of the temporary consequences of sin in this life.
  zh: 现在我已经通过引用《教理》第1472段表明，通过一个热切的爱德行为，人可以在今生免除所有罪的暂时后果。
- start: 2311.564
  end: 2313.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But not everyone will do that.
  zh: 但不是每个人都会这样做。
- start: 2313.025
  end: 2317.667
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James has tried to say, “Oh, well, of course we believe in sanctification; of course we believe in conforming to God’s will.”
  zh: 詹姆斯试图说：「哦，当然我们相信成圣；当然我们相信顺服神的旨意。」
- start: 2317.667
  end: 2323.991
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he describes it as only a purely positive process, whereas I’ve clearly shown, based on my argument in Hebrews 12, that this is.
  zh: 但他把它描述为纯粹的正面过程，而我已经根据希伯来书12章清楚地表明这一点。
- start: 2323.991
  end: 2327.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don’t have to use the word punishment; I never use the word punishment in my arguments.
  zh: 你不必使用惩罚这个词；我在论述中从不使用惩罚这个词。
- start: 2327.768
  end: 2335.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said unpleasant discipline, and that’s clearly what is being described in Hebrews 12. God scourges; He whips every son He receives.
  zh: 我说的是不愉快的管教，这正是希伯来书12章所描述的。神鞭打凡他所收纳的儿子。
- start: 2335.894
  end: 2348.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just read it for yourself and see that God, because He is a loving Father—just as our fathers do—when they do bad and they feel good, I want them to be reordered toward the good, so they have to feel bad.
  zh: 你自己读一读就会看到，神因为他是慈爱的父——就像我们的父亲一样——当他们作恶却感觉良好时，我希望他们重新导向善，所以他们必须感觉不好。
- start: 2348.49
  end: 2351.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, God says that this is fitting; this is a fitting form of justice.
  zh: 现在，神说这是合适的；这是一种合适的公义形式。
- start: 2351.213
  end: 2354.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God is all-powerful; He doesn’t have to do this.
  zh: 神是全能的；他不是必须这样做。
- start: 2354.537
  end: 2358.721
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He can just snap His fingers and reorder our divine will, but it’s fitting that He does that.
  zh: 他可以只是打个响指就重整我们的意志，但他这样做是合适的。
- start: 2358.721
  end: 2369.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that leaves open the possibility that God, in His infinite mercy, can remit these temporary consequences from sin based on, for example, things like the rewards that He has given to others.
  zh: 所以这留下了一种可能性，神在他无限的怜悯中，可以基于他给予他人的奖赏等事物，免除这些罪的暂时后果。
- start: 2369.692
  end: 2379.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you hear merits, when James talks about the merit of Christ and the saints, take out merit and put in rewards given by God, and that’s clearly taught in the New Testament.
  zh: 当你听到功德，当詹姆斯谈论基督和圣徒的功德时，把功德换成神所赐的奖赏，这在新约中有清楚的教导。
- start: 2379.579
  end: 2383.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The New Testament also teaches that God blesses people because of the goodness of others.
  zh: 新约也教导说神因着他人的善行而祝福人。
- start: 2383.481
  end: 2392.551
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, in Romans 11, God blessed the Jews in Paul’s time because of what their forefathers had done, or He can remit punishment.
  zh: 例如，在罗马书11章，神在保罗时代祝福犹太人是因为他们祖先所做的，或者他可以免除惩罚。
- start: 2392.551
  end: 2405.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So when Solomon strayed from God’s will, God thought that Solomon would not lose his kingdom in 1 Kings 11 because of what David had done; He lessened the temporary consequence of Solomon’s sin.
  zh: 所以当所罗门偏离神的旨意时，神在列王纪上11章认为所罗门不会失去他的国，是因为大卫所做的；他减轻了所罗门犯罪的暂时后果。
- start: 2405.398
  end: 2410.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s a lot more to talk about regarding the things that James just got wrong, and I’m excited to do that when I come back.
  zh: 关于詹姆斯刚才说错的事情还有很多要讨论的，我很期待回来时继续讨论。
- start: 2429.517
  end: 2432.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why do Lutherans have such a small little stand here?
  zh: 为什么路德宗这里有这么小的讲台？
- start: 2432.499
  end: 2434.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that where you preach from?
  zh: 这就是你们讲道的地方吗？
- start: 2434.26
  end: 2434.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A little more?
  zh: 再多一点？
- start: 2434.88
  end: 2435.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, a little more space.
  zh: 好的，再多一点空间。
- start: 2435.801
  end: 2439.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, all right—it’s hard to get anything up here, it really is.
  zh: 好的，好的——在这里很难摆放任何东西，真的是。
- start: 2439.363
  end: 2442.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I guess we’re not going to be having a friendly discussion this evening.
  zh: 好吧，我猜今晚我们不会有一个友好的讨论了。
- start: 2442.205
  end: 2446.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That was a very unpleasant shot across the bow.
  zh: 那是一个非常不愉快的警告性攻击。
- start: 2447.208
  end: 2454.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, that was my opening statement, and everybody knows that it was a perfectly proper opening statement and that I did almost everything that Trent said that I didn’t do.
  zh: 不，那是我的开场陈述，每个人都知道那是一个完全恰当的开场陈述，而且我几乎做了特伦特说我没做的所有事情。
- start: 2454.232
  end: 2459.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So obviously, it’s going to be a little bit more of a fangs-out discussion this evening.
  zh: 所以显然，今晚的讨论会更加针锋相对。
- start: 2460.423
  end: 2488.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'We were just told that—okay, the scoffing thing—well, if you want me to read all of Matthew chapter 5, I would recommend that, as you’re taking notes, you begin at verse 21. This is from the Sermon on the Mount, and you will see that it’s talking about personal relationships between individuals: that you should not say “Raka,” and that you’ll be guilty before the Sanhedrin.'
  zh: 我们刚才被告知——好吧，关于嘲笑的事——如果你想让我读马太福音第5章全文，我建议你在记笔记时从第21节开始。这是登山宝训的内容，你会看到它谈论的是个人之间的关系：你不应该说「拉加」，你会在公会面前有罪。
- start: 2488.116
  end: 2489.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is the Sanhedrin in purgatory?
  zh: 公会在炼狱里吗？
- start: 2489.477
  end: 2489.897
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I wonder?
  zh: 我很好奇？
- start: 2489.897
  end: 2491.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 2491.438
  end: 2495.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And whoever says, “You fool,” will be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.
  zh: 凡骂弟兄是魔利的，就要下地狱的火。
- start: 2495.382
  end: 2499.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, there’s punishment for personal relationships.
  zh: 好的，这里有对个人关系的惩罚。
- start: 2499.545
  end: 2510.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How does that connect when Jesus says, “Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge”? What’s that?
  zh: 当耶稣说「你同告你的对头还在路上，就赶紧与他和息，恐怕他把你送给审判官」时，这如何联系起来？那是什么？
- start: 2511.789
  end: 2516.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What’s the correspondence to that in regards to the concept of purgatory?
  zh: 这与炼狱的概念有什么对应关系？
- start: 2516.091
  end: 2518.452
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the judge or the officer—you’d be thrown into prison.
  zh: 而审判官或差役会把你下在监里。
- start: 2518.452
  end: 2522.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Truly, I say to you, you will not come out until you’ve paid up the last quadrants.
  zh: 我实在告诉你，若有一文钱没有还清，你断不能从那里出来。
- start: 2522.593
  end: 2524.994
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you’re paying to get out?
  zh: 所以你是在付钱以求出来？
- start: 2524.994
  end: 2527.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that what satis-passio is?
  zh: 这就是补赎之苦吗？
- start: 2527.095
  end: 2531.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t know, but we heard, “I don’t understand this, I don’t understand that.”
  zh: 我不知道，但我们听到「我不理解这个，我不理解那个。」
- start: 2531.317
  end: 2536.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The fact of the matter is, Trent Horn represents a modern cleansed view of this.
  zh: 事实是，特伦特·霍恩代表了这个问题的现代净化观点。
- start: 2536.379
  end: 2538.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Catholic Answers does this all the time.
  zh: 公教答案一直都是这样做的。
- start: 2539.26
  end: 2548.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Anyone who goes back—pick it up, buy it, F.X. Schoup, it’s available—pan books, pick it up, read it yourself.
  zh: 任何人都可以回顾——拿起来，买下来，F.X.舒普的书，它是有售的——平装书，拿起来，自己读读。
- start: 2548.87
  end: 2552.891
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This represents what Rome believed for centuries.
  zh: 这代表了罗马几个世纪以来的信仰。
- start: 2552.891
  end: 2556.752
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now I realize Rome’s changing; we know what they believe about capital punishment procedures.
  zh: 现在我意识到罗马在改变；我们知道他们对死刑程序的看法。
- start: 2556.752
  end: 2565.954
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, they don’t believe that it changes, and while you should be quoting from the Universal Catholic Catechism, well, that gets changed too, and it may get changed yet again in the future.
  zh: 现在，他们不相信它会改变，虽然你应该引用《公教会教理》，但是，那也会改变，而且将来可能还会再次改变。
- start: 2566.334
  end: 2597.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The fact of the matter is, if you go to Denzinger, which is much more exhaustive than the Universal Catholic Catechism, and if you look up terms like punishment and merits and see what’s there, and you look up the thesaurus meritorum, to say that merits are just simply rewards that God gives—okay, then how is it that to be a saint when you die, your excess merit goes into the treasury of merit?
  zh: 事实是，如果你去看丹青格的著作，它比《公教会教理》更详尽，如果你查找惩罚和功德这样的术语，看看那里有什么，再查找功德宝库，说功德只是神给予的奖赏——好吧，那么为什么当你死后成为圣人时，你多余的功德会进入功德宝库？
- start: 2598.801
  end: 2600.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Think about what that means.
  zh: 想想这意味着什么。
- start: 2600.342
  end: 2601.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What’s an indulgence?
  zh: 什么是大赦？
- start: 2601.584
  end: 2605.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a withdrawal from the treasury of merit.
  zh: 它是从功德宝库中的提取。
- start: 2605.388
  end: 2607.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Don’t you think there’s something more to that?
  zh: 你不觉得这里面还有更多内容吗？
- start: 2608.177
  end: 2615.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Doesn’t that correspond to the concept of indulgences and how long you get out of purgatory for indulgences?
  zh: 这不是与大赦的概念以及你通过大赦能从炼狱中脱离多长时间相对应吗？
- start: 2615.882
  end: 2621.866
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, there is an idea of punishment, satis-passio—the suffering of atonement.
  zh: 是的，这里有惩罚的概念，补赎之苦——赎罪的痛苦。
- start: 2621.866
  end: 2629.391
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I read from Ludwig Ott what it means, what it is about, and the necessity of undergoing it in purgatory.
  zh: 我从路德维希·奥特的著作中读到它的含义，它的内容，以及在炼狱中经历它的必要性。
- start: 2629.752
  end: 2644.339
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: My whole opening statement was that if you understand what the blessed man is, you will recognize that there is a fundamental confusion in Roman Catholicism between sanctification and justification.
  zh: 我的整个开场陈述是，如果你理解什么是有福的人，你就会认识到罗马公教在成圣和称义之间存在着根本性的混淆。
- start: 2644.88
  end: 2651.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That has been known; we’re just simply going back over what has been debated ever since the time of the Reformation.
  zh: 这是众所周知的；我们只是在重温自宗教改革以来一直在辩论的内容。
- start: 2651.924
  end: 2655.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What does it mean to be justified before God?
  zh: 在神面前称义是什么意思？
- start: 2655.587
  end: 2659.609
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What does it mean to have the righteousness of Christ?
  zh: 拥有基督的义是什么意思？
- start: 2659.649
  end: 2662.111
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Rome says that’s a legal fiction!
  zh: 罗马说那是法律虚构！
- start: 2663.186
  end: 2669.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Baptism actually makes you righteous before God, and that’s what makes you pleasing before God.
  zh: 洗礼实际上使你在神面前称义，这就是使你在神面前蒙悦纳的原因。
- start: 2669.449
  end: 2674.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That’s why you’re going to go to heaven: because you’re in a state of grace and you’re objectively pleasing to God.'
  zh: 这就是你将要上天堂的原因：因为你处在恩典状态中，你客观上使神喜悦。
- start: 2674.731
  end: 2677.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s an infusion of grace into you.
  zh: 这是恩典注入到你里面。
- start: 2678.013
  end: 2700.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The whole point of the Reformation was the re-emphasis that had always been there in Scripture but the removal of centuries of tradition: the re-emphasis upon the freedom of God to save in Jesus Christ perfectly to His own glory, not through a sacramental system that controls that grace.'
  zh: 宗教改革的全部要点是重新强调圣经中一直存在但被几个世纪传统所遮蔽的内容：重新强调神在耶稣基督里完全为他自己的荣耀施行拯救的自由，而不是通过控制那恩典的圣事体系。
- start: 2701.497
  end: 2726.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What that said to individual believers is that that individual believer now has not only direct access to God—not through a bunch of saints and angels and all the rest of these types of things—but has direct access to God because that individual has the righteousness of Christ, which is why the Holy Spirit can dwell within us, and that righteousness gives us peace with God.
  zh: 这对个别信徒说的是，这个信徒现在不仅可以直接接近神——不是通过一群圣徒和天使以及所有这些类型的事物——而且可以直接接近神，因为这个人有基督的义，这就是为什么圣灵能住在我们里面，这义使我们与神和好。
- start: 2726.892
  end: 2729.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that makes us the blessed man.
  zh: 这使我们成为有福的人。
- start: 2729.594
  end: 2734.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, are we conformed to the image of Christ by God’s fatherly discipline?
  zh: 现在，我们是否通过神父亲般的管教被模造成基督的形象？
- start: 2734.597
  end: 2735.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 2735.117
  end: 2739.219
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that is not the working off of temporal punishments.
  zh: 但这不是在偿还暂时的惩罚。
- start: 2739.918
  end: 2746.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is not because I’ve gone to a priest, which doesn’t exist in the New Testament, and been given penances to do.
  zh: 这不是因为我去见了一个祭司——新约中并不存在这样的职分——并被给予补赎要做。
- start: 2746.482
  end: 2757.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If I don’t do them with the right attitude or with the right disposition, then there are still temporal punishments left over, and that’s why I need to go through purgatory before I enter into the presence of God.
  zh: 如果我做这些事时没有正确的态度或正确的心态，那么仍然会有暂时的惩罚遗留，这就是为什么我在进入神的同在之前需要经过炼狱。
- start: 2757.107
  end: 2758.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s nowhere in the New Testament.
  zh: 这在新约中根本找不到。
- start: 2759.088
  end: 2764.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James gave us absolutely nothing that says we immediately leave this life and go into the presence of God.
  zh: 詹姆斯完全没有给我们任何说我们立即离开今生就进入神同在的证据。
- start: 2767.155
  end: 2773.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He gave us something that suggests actually we go to a place called purgatory for an undisclosed period of time.
  zh: 他给我们的内容暗示我们实际上要去一个叫炼狱的地方待上一段不确定的时间。
- start: 2773.76
  end: 2782.567
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, he didn’t. He quoted from various popes and sources like that, but he didn’t give us anything from Scripture that even comes close to that.
  zh: 不，他没有。他引用了各种教宗和类似的来源，但他没有给我们任何圣经中接近这种说法的内容。
- start: 2783.388
  end: 2800.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So let’s remember what this is really about because, in my experience, a discussion of purgatory reveals the fundamental and foundational differences between us as to how we believe that we will ever enter into God’s presence.
  zh: 所以让我们记住这真正是关于什么，因为根据我的经验，关于炼狱的讨论揭示了我们之间关于如何进入神同在的根本性和基础性差异。
- start: 2801.102
  end: 2808.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is it because I have been objectively made pleasing to God, and therefore I am brought into His presence?
  zh: 是因为我在客观上已经被造成使神喜悦的，所以我被带入他的同在？
- start: 2809.067
  end: 2827.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Or is it because Jesus Christ didn’t just make a way, didn’t just make it possible, didn’t just merit a treasury of merit, but He substitutionarily takes my sin in His body on the cross and I receive His righteousness?
  zh: 还是因为耶稣基督不仅仅开了一条路，不仅仅使之成为可能，不仅仅赚得功德宝库，而是他在十字架上以他的身体替代性地承担了我的罪，而我领受了他的义？
- start: 2827.955
  end: 2831.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is a completely different understanding.
  zh: 这是一个完全不同的理解。
- start: 2831.257
  end: 2834.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Both cannot possibly be true.
  zh: 两者不可能都是真的。
- start: 2834.7
  end: 2836.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so why is purgatory wrong?
  zh: 那么为什么炼狱是错误的？
- start: 2836.681
  end: 2842.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because it fundamentally compromises the gospel that Paul taught.
  zh: 因为它从根本上损害了保罗所教导的福音。
- start: 2842.385
  end: 2843.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you for your attention.
  zh: 谢谢你们的关注。
- start: 2856.035
  end: 2858.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Fangs out, James!
  zh: 詹姆斯，露出獠牙吧！
- start: 2858.156
  end: 2864.62
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You should have heard some of the things Luther used to say to his opponents—I’d say what I said was pretty tame tonight.
  zh: 你应该听听路德过去对他的对手说的一些话——我要说我今晚说的话相当温和。
- start: 2864.62
  end: 2881.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I also think it was just terribly ironic for James to ridicule the idea that baptism is how you get to heaven right here in a Lutheran church in a denomination that teaches baptismal regeneration, so I find that to be supremely ironic.
  zh: 我也认为詹姆斯在一个教导洗礼重生的路德宗教会里嘲笑洗礼是通往天堂的方式，这真是极其讽刺。
- start: 2881.909
  end: 2888.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Notice what we’re going through with our cases here: I presented two arguments with specific premises.'
  zh: 注意我们这里讨论的案例：我提出了两个带有具体前提的论点。
- start: 2888.342
  end: 2901.305
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That logically led to a conclusion about the essence of purgatory, which is that it involves purification from sin after death or it involves unpleasant discipline—or you would call it punishment for sin after death.
  zh: 这在逻辑上导向了关于炼狱本质的结论，即它涉及死后的罪的净化，或者涉及不愉快的管教——或者你会称之为死后的罪的惩罚。
- start: 2901.305
  end: 2905.225
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I gave reasons for both, yet James never showed that any of the premises were false.
  zh: 我为两者都给出了理由，但詹姆斯从未表明任何前提是错误的。
- start: 2905.225
  end: 2915.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He never demonstrated that there was a fallacy in any of the arguments; he just basically said that they’re wrong and offered a response that said, “Well, you know, Romans 5 says we have peace with God,” so therefore what?
  zh: 他从未证明任何论点中存在谬误；他基本上只是说它们是错的，并给出一个回应说：「好吧，你知道，罗马书5章说我们与神和好」，所以然后呢？
- start: 2915.147
  end: 2918.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So therefore there are no temporary consequences to our sins?
  zh: 所以就意味着我们的罪没有暂时的后果吗？
- start: 2918.769
  end: 2931.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, the author of Hebrews 12—since Scripture does not contradict Scripture—would say that we have peace with God, but having peace with God does not entail that God is not our Father.
  zh: 希伯来书12章的作者——因为圣经不会自相矛盾——会说我们与神和好，但与神和好并不意味着神不是我们的父。
- start: 2931.136
  end: 2932.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God is still our Father; we have peace with Him.
  zh: 神仍然是我们的父；我们与他和好。
- start: 2932.937
  end: 2943.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because we have peace, God can then give us discipline so that we can be more conformed to His will and that we suffer the temporary consequences of our sins.
  zh: 因为我们和好了，神就能给我们管教，使我们更加符合他的旨意，并承受我们罪的暂时后果。
- start: 2943.706
  end: 2948.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think the problem for James, really, is that he rejects the idea of mortal sin and venial sin.
  zh: 我认为詹姆斯的问题实际上是，他拒绝致死的罪和小罪的概念。
- start: 2948.629
  end: 2956.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But to be consistent, almost all Protestants can’t do that because it’s just obvious to everyone here, no matter what you believe.
  zh: 但要保持一致性，几乎所有新教徒都不能这样做，因为这对在座的每个人来说都是显而易见的，无论你信什么。
- start: 2956.435
  end: 2958.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are some sins.
  zh: 有一些罪。
- start: 2958.136
  end: 2960.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you’re a Christian tonight, do you sin?
  zh: 如果你今晚是一个基督徒，你会犯罪吗？
- start: 2960.217
  end: 2963.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You bet you do; you sin on a regular basis.
  zh: 你肯定会；你经常犯罪。
- start: 2963.019
  end: 2964.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But they’re minor sins.
  zh: 但它们是小罪。
- start: 2964.44
  end: 2970.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, if somebody sinned on a regular basis—if they committed an abortion every day—that's different than committing some minor sin every day.
  zh: 然而，如果有人经常犯罪——如果他们每天都堕胎——这与每天犯一些小罪是不同的。
- start: 2971.01
  end: 2984.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All of us, if you hold James’ view, do recognize that there’s a difference between the major sins that are incompatible with the Christian life—like adultery, abortion, sodomy—and the minor sins that we commit that are not incompatible with the Christian life.
  zh: 如果你持詹姆斯的观点，我们都承认与基督徒生活不相容的大罪——如通奸、堕胎、鸡奸——与我们所犯的与基督徒生活并不冲突的小罪之间是有区别的。
- start: 2984.417
  end: 2989.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Catholics just call those mortal and venial, and I don’t see how you can deny those.
  zh: 公教徒只是把这些称为致死的罪和小罪，我不明白你怎么能否认这些。
- start: 2989.1
  end: 2990.5
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So there are consequences.
  zh: 所以是有后果的。
- start: 2990.5
  end: 2997.725
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The consequence of mortal sin is that you completely turn away from God, and you have to return to God through reconciliation by God’s grace.
  zh: 致死的罪的后果是你完全背离神，你必须通过神的恩典借着和好回到神那里。
- start: 2997.725
  end: 3005.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But through the minor sins, we turn away from God, and God, in His fatherly discipline, chastises us just as our earthly fathers do.
  zh: 但通过小罪，我们偏离神，而神以他父亲般的管教惩戒我们，就像我们地上的父亲那样。
- start: 3005.717
  end: 3007.398
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, he said, “Well, I’m misrepresenting.”
  zh: 现在，他说：「好吧，我在歪曲事实。」
- start: 3007.398
  end: 3011.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, he says that I’m sanitizing purgatory.
  zh: 你知道，他说我在美化炼狱。
- start: 3011.121
  end: 3011.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not true.
  zh: 这不是真的。
- start: 3011.541
  end: 3021.727
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You can go to the Catechism in paragraph 1472; it says, “To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church related to indulgences…” It talks about grave sin depriving us of communion with God.
  zh: 你可以去看《教理》第1472段；它说：「要理解教会关于大赦的这个教义和实践……」它谈到重罪使我们失去与神的共融。
- start: 3021.727
  end: 3030.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: On the other hand, every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures that must be freed and purified either here on earth or after death in purgatory.
  zh: 另一方面，每一个罪，即使是小罪，都包含着对受造物的不健康依恋，这必须在地上或死后在炼狱中被释放和净化。
- start: 3030.093
  end: 3035.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This purification frees one from what is called the temporal punishment of sin.
  zh: 这种净化使人从所谓的罪的暂时惩罚中得释放。
- start: 3035.618
  end: 3045.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the punishment must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin.
  zh: 所以惩罚不应被理解为神从外部施加的一种报复，而是源于罪本身的本质。
- start: 3045.642
  end: 3048.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sin separates us from God, and we suffer.
  zh: 罪使我们与神隔绝，我们就受苦。
- start: 3048.403
  end: 3054.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It can fully separate us or partially turn us away from God, leading to a recognition that we don’t have full communion with Him.
  zh: 它可以完全使我们与神隔绝，或部分使我们偏离神，导致我们认识到我们没有与他完全的共融。
- start: 3054.166
  end: 3059.888
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The order of justice has been disturbed, and so God reorders that in His loving fatherly will.
  zh: 公义的秩序被扰乱了，所以神以他慈爱的父亲旨意重新整顿。
- start: 3061.447
  end: 3068.291
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I also think it’s interesting to ask James, Well, when did his view come into existence in the history of the Church?
  zh: 我也觉得问詹姆斯一个有趣的问题，就是他的观点是在教会历史中什么时候出现的？
- start: 3068.371
  end: 3075.855
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn’t reject any of the Fathers and historical witnesses that I cited, and this is something that has been continuously known in Church history.
  zh: 他没有否认我引用的任何教父和历史见证，这是在教会历史中一直都知道的事情。
- start: 3076.427
  end: 3079.069
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Finally, this is compared to the doctrine of hell.
  zh: 最后，这可以与地狱的教义相比较。
- start: 3079.23
  end: 3082.833
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Many Christians agree on what hell is, but they disagree on the nature of hell.
  zh: 许多基督徒对地狱是什么达成一致，但他们对地狱的本质有分歧。
- start: 3082.833
  end: 3089.599
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is it a red devil poking you in the butt with a pitchfork, or is it more of an abstract thing, the separation from God?
  zh: 是红魔鬼用叉子戳你的屁股，还是更抽象的事物，与神的隔绝？
- start: 3089.599
  end: 3096.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just because Christians disagree about the precise nature of hell doesn’t mean hell doesn’t exist, just as Catholic theologians disagree about the nature of purgatory.
  zh: 基督徒对地狱的确切本质有分歧并不意味着地狱不存在，就像公教神学家对炼狱的本质有分歧一样。
- start: 3096.644
  end: 3099.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It does not follow that there is no purgatory.
  zh: 这并不能推断出炼狱不存在。
- start: 3099.127
  end: 3099.887
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 3111.294
  end: 3132.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let me suggest that since you all have access to the Internet these days, in light of the assertion that was just made that this belief has been continuously known in Church history, I would recommend a very interesting exchange of videos between Trent Horn and Brother Ortland on this particular subject.
  zh: 让我建议，既然你们现在都能上网，鉴于刚才所说这个信仰在教会历史中一直为人所知的说法，我推荐特伦特·霍恩和奥特兰德弟兄之间关于这个特定主题的一系列很有趣的视频交流。
- start: 3132.579
  end: 3137.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They are very lengthy, hours in length, and so I would invite you to take a look at those.
  zh: 这些视频很长，有好几个小时，所以我邀请你们去看看。
- start: 3137.6
  end: 3140.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Do I get on the inside of the joke for having quoted him now?
  zh: 我现在引用他的话是不是也参与到这个内部笑话中了？
- start: 3142.339
  end: 3148.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, alright, because he mentioned that in your debate, so there’s an inside joke going on there.
  zh: 好的，好的，因为他在你们的辩论中提到过这个，所以这里有个内部笑话。
- start: 3148.401
  end: 3159.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Anyways, I would suggest you take a look at that because the reality is, again, if you look at Le Goff and Roman Catholic historians, they will tell you that this is something that developed over time.
  zh: 无论如何，我建议你们去看看，因为事实是，如果你看勒戈夫和罗马公教会的历史学家的著作，他们会告诉你这是随时间发展的事物。
- start: 3159.284
  end: 3170.288
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The idea that this was the universal idea based upon a headstone or a prayer here when there were so many different perspectives.
  zh: 认为这是基于一块墓碑或一个祷告就成为普遍观念的想法，当时却存在如此多不同的观点。
- start: 3170.288
  end: 3173.57
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, Gavin Ortland spent a lot of time on John Chrysostom.
  zh: 例如，加文·奥特兰德花了很多时间研究屈梭多模。
- start: 3173.73
  end: 3182.311
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Chrysostom really, I was actually very surprised, believed that you should pray for the damned, those who are not going to heaven.
  zh: 屈梭多模确实，我实际上很惊讶，他相信你应该为被定罪的人，那些不能上天堂的人祷告。
- start: 3182.712
  end: 3204.805
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I found that a very strange aspect, but the point is there were all sorts of different perspectives, and it was not until the 1400s that you had a dogmatic distillation of all these things into the perspective that is now represented in the Universal Catholic Catechism, even if not to the fullness of what has been taught in the past.
  zh: 我发现这是一个很奇怪的方面，但重点是当时存在各种不同的观点，直到1400年代才将所有这些观点提炼成教义，形成现在《公教会教理》中所呈现的观点，即使没有完全包含过去所教导的内容。
- start: 3204.805
  end: 3211.248
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But let me just address this idea of mortal and venial sins because even the definition just now given to you wasn’t the full definition.
  zh: 但让我来谈谈致死的罪和小罪的概念，因为刚才给你们的定义甚至不是完整的定义。
- start: 3211.248
  end: 3221.213
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A mortal sin, in at least historic classic Roman Catholic theology, is a sin that destroys the grace of justification.
  zh: 在至少历史上的古典罗马公教神学中，致死的罪是摧毁称义恩典的罪。
- start: 3221.453
  end: 3230.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So when you receive baptism, you are put into a state of grace and you are justified by baptism.
  zh: 所以当你接受洗礼时，你被置于恩典状态中，并通过洗礼称义。
- start: 3230.692
  end: 3238.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But if you commit a mortal sin, that state of grace is destroyed, and you have to be re-justified.
  zh: 但如果你犯了致死的罪，那恩典状态就被摧毁了，你必须重新称义。
- start: 3238.436
  end: 3242.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Therefore, there are eternal punishments for that, as well as temporal punishments.
  zh: 因此，这样的罪有永恒的惩罚，也有暂时的惩罚。
- start: 3243.219
  end: 3247.822
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, a venial sin does not destroy the grace of justification.
  zh: 现在，小罪并不摧毁称义的恩典。
- start: 3247.822
  end: 3254.292
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That’s the primary distinction between the two: whether it destroys the state of grace.'
  zh: 这是两者之间的主要区别：是否摧毁恩典状态。
- start: 3254.412
  end: 3257.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because if you die outside the state of grace, then you’re going to go to hell.
  zh: 因为如果你在恩典状态之外死去，你就会下地狱。
- start: 3257.754
  end: 3269.647
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Again, I don’t think that’s what the majority of the Magisterium actually teaches today, or believes today, anyways, personally, but that is the historic perspective that’s going on there.
  zh: 再说一次，我个人认为这不是今天大多数训导权实际教导或相信的，但那是当时的历史观点。
- start: 3269.707
  end: 3272.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That distinction is not biblical.
  zh: 这种区分不符合圣经。
- start: 3272.61
  end: 3279.416
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even Roman Catholic theologians will tell you—exegetes will tell you—that if you go to 1 John, there’s a sin unto death and a sin not unto death.
  zh: 即使罗马公教神学家会告诉你——解经家会告诉你——如果你去看约翰一书，有至于死的罪和不至于死的罪。
- start: 3279.416
  end: 3284.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not talking about mortal and venial sins; that’s talking about committing apostasy by cursing Jesus Christ.
  zh: 这不是在谈论致死的罪和小罪；这是在谈论通过咒诅耶稣基督而叛教。
- start: 3285.001
  end: 3295.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That simply is not a teaching that is found in the New Testament; it has to be read into the New Testament in light of later doctrinal developments from centuries down the road.
  zh: 这根本不是在新约中能找到的教导；它必须根据几个世纪后的教义发展被读入新约中。
- start: 3296.507
  end: 3299.629
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why say this?
  zh: 为什么这么说？
- start: 3299.629
  end: 3315.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Evidently, Trent feels that providing biblical argumentation on the nature of what it is to be in relationship with Christ is insufficient; you have to have these specific terminologies.
  zh: 显然，特伦特觉得仅仅提供关于与基督关系本质的圣经论证是不够的；你必须有这些具体的术语。
- start: 3315.427
  end: 3322.15
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just like last night, you have to have specific terminology in regards to sola scriptura; you have a specific terminology here.
  zh: 就像昨晚一样，你必须有关于唯独圣经的具体术语；你在这里也有具体的术语。
- start: 3322.671
  end: 3336.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If we have righteousness in Christ, in God’s sight, by union with Christ and the imputation of His righteousness to us, all the rest of this stuff doesn’t make any sense.
  zh: 如果我们在神眼中，通过与基督联合和他的义归算给我们而有了义，所有其他这些东西都没有任何意义。
- start: 3337.26
  end: 3345.331
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If that’s what Paul was teaching, then you cannot turn Paul against Paul; you cannot make him contradictory to himself.
  zh: 如果这就是保罗所教导的，那么你不能使保罗自相矛盾；你不能使他与自己产生矛盾。
- start: 3345.331
  end: 3348.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s what you’d have to be doing in taking the view of purgatory.
  zh: 而这就是你在接受炼狱观点时必须做的事。
- start: 3348.653
  end: 3349.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 3360.96
  end: 3362.26
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I just want to mention that.
  zh: 我只是想提一下这点。
- start: 3362.321
  end: 3365.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, ten minutes, ten minutes, ten minutes, ten minutes.
  zh: 好的，十分钟，十分钟，十分钟，十分钟。
- start: 3366.183
  end: 3366.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Trent, you’ll go first.
  zh: 特伦特，你先来。
- start: 3366.783
  end: 3367.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: You ready to go?
  zh: 你准备好了吗？
- start: 3370.025
  end: 3383.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, so James, your main argument seemed to be that because of your view of the imputation of Christ's righteousness, people do not suffer temporal punishment from their sins in purgatory.
  zh: 好的，所以詹姆斯，你的主要论点似乎是因为你对基督的义归算的观点，人们不会在炼狱中因他们的罪受到暂时的惩罚。
- start: 3384.319
  end: 3394.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God judges us not based on our merits or the merits of others, but on the merit of Christ that is imputed to us, and that’s what He looks at at the judgment for each of us.
  zh: 神审判我们不是基于我们的功德或他人的功德，而是基于归算给我们的基督的功德，这就是他在审判我们每个人时所看的。
- start: 3394.283
  end: 3396.404
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that basically your view?
  zh: 这基本上是你的观点吗？
- start: 3397.582
  end: 3404.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s a rather surface way of putting it, but we’ll have to fill out the details.
  zh: 这是一种相当表面的说法，但我们必须补充细节。
- start: 3405.429
  end: 3419.826
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The righteousness that we have when we die is the righteousness of Jesus Christ, and that determines the fact that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
  zh: 我们死时所拥有的义是耶稣基督的义，这决定了离开身体就与主同在的事实。
- start: 3420.747
  end: 3423.028
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's based upon that and not upon anything else.
  zh: 这是基于那个，而不是基于其他任何事物。
- start: 3423.848
  end: 3436.637
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Wait, were you just quoting 2 Corinthians 5, verses 8-9? You said, To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord?
  zh: 等等，你刚才是在引用哥林多后书5章8-9节吗？你说，离开身体就与主同在？
- start: 3436.637
  end: 3447.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, when Paul speaks of his own desire to be with Christ—well, no, I want to stick to this verse.
  zh: 好吧，当保罗谈到他自己想要与基督同在的愿望时——不，我想坚持讨论这节经文。
- start: 3447.851
  end: 3453.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Are you aware that the verse actually says, We would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord?
  zh: 你知道这节经文实际上说的是「我们更愿意离开身体与主同住」吗？
- start: 3453.913
  end: 3460.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord—that is a common misstatement of it.
  zh: 不是「离开身体就与主同在」——这是一个常见的错误说法。
- start: 3460.255
  end: 3467.691
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 2 Corinthians 5:8—I’m not sure what the distinction you think is being made there is.
  zh: 哥林多后书5:8——我不确定你认为这里做出了什么区分。
- start: 3467.691
  end: 3476.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The distinction is that many Protestants will say there is no purgatory because to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and there’s no intermediate state.
  zh: 区别在于许多新教徒会说没有炼狱，因为离开身体就与主同在，没有中间状态。
- start: 3476.638
  end: 3478.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But 2 Corinthians 5:8 doesn’t say that.
  zh: 但哥林多后书5:8并没有这样说。
- start: 3478.519
  end: 3487.066
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, verse 10 says, We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body.
  zh: 事实上，第10节说：「我们众人必要在基督台前显露出来，叫各人按着本身所行的，或善或恶受报。」
- start: 3487.066
  end: 3490.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, and so, For we walk by faith, not by sight.
  zh: 好的，所以「因我们行事为人是凭着信心，不是凭着眼见」。
- start: 3490.692
  end: 3495.913
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are of good courage, and we prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
  zh: 我们坦然无惧，是更愿意离开身体与主同住。
- start: 3496.374
  end: 3500.635
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Therefore, we also have as our ambition, whether at home or absent, to be pleasing to Him.
  zh: 所以，无论是住在身内，离开身外，我们立了志向，要得主的喜悦。
- start: 3501.415
  end: 3507.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In 1 Corinthians 3, is that talking about a saved person who will suffer loss?
  zh: 在哥林多前书3章，那是在谈论一个得救的人会遭受损失吗？
- start: 3508.797
  end: 3510.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we’re leaving that one, going to another topic?
  zh: 所以我们要离开那个话题，转到另一个话题？
- start: 3510.837
  end: 3511.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You bet we are.
  zh: 你说对了。
- start: 3511.338
  end: 3512.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh, okay.
  zh: 哦，好的。
- start: 3512.438
  end: 3516.939
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, I thought you had said there was something else going on there.
  zh: 好吧，我以为你说那里还有其他内容。
- start: 3517.069
  end: 3530.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 1 Corinthians chapter 3 is definitely talking about a saved person who is building upon the foundation of Jesus Christ that has been laid by the Apostle Paul there in Corinth.
  zh: 哥林多前书第3章肯定是在谈论一个得救的人，他在使徒保罗在哥林多所立的耶稣基督的根基上建造。
- start: 3530.879
  end: 3532.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What do they lose?
  zh: 他们失去什么？
- start: 3533.661
  end: 3542.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, if you want to skip that far in, we’re going to be looking a whole lot more closely at it, but they lose a reward.
  zh: 好吧，如果你想跳到那么远，我们会更仔细地看这段，但他们失去的是奖赏。
- start: 3544.417
  end: 3562.068
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: On what does God—well, I need to correct that because it actually says in verse 14 that it's the one whose work remains, which he has built, receives a misthos, a reward.
  zh: 神在什么基础上——好吧，我需要纠正一下，因为第14节实际上说的是，人在上面所建造的工程若存得住，他就要得赏赐。
- start: 3562.468
  end: 3567.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But if anyone's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss.
  zh: 人的工程若被烧了，他就要受亏损。
- start: 3567.932
  end: 3576.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it doesn't specifically say loss of the same reward, but I mean, that’s just sort of an assumption that you would come to.
  zh: 所以它并没有具体说失去同样的赏赐，但我的意思是，这只是你会得出的一种假设。
- start: 3576.637
  end: 3583.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, in order to determine that the reward is lost, what does God see in that person?
  zh: 好的，为了判定赏赐失去了，神在那个人身上看到什么？
- start: 3583.322
  end: 3589.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does He only look at the righteousness of Christ and then determine that a reward will be lost, or does He see something else?
  zh: 他是只看基督的义然后判定赏赐会失去，还是他看到其他东西？
- start: 3589.147
  end: 3590.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not what this text is about.
  zh: 这不是这段经文的重点。
- start: 3590.708
  end: 3594.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This text is about the testing of the works.
  zh: 这段经文是关于工程的试验。
- start: 3594.952
  end: 3602.886
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Specifically, verse 13 says, Each one’s work will be manifested, for the day will show it.
  zh: 具体来说，第13节说：「各人的工程必然显露，因为那日子要将它表明出来。」
- start: 3602.886
  end: 3607.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why does the believer suffer something when only the work is tested?
  zh: 为什么当只有工程被试验时，信徒要受到什么？
- start: 3607.648
  end: 3609.889
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why doesn’t just the work suffer?
  zh: 为什么不是只有工程受损？
- start: 3610.209
  end: 3613.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, where's the term suffer?
  zh: 那么，「受」这个词在哪里？
- start: 3613.931
  end: 3615.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Suffer loss.
  zh: 受亏损。
- start: 3615.371
  end: 3632.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, but again, that’s the same term that—I was astonished that you said this—when Paul uses the term, the consistent use by Paul, and that has to be the first thing you ask in defining a term, is how someone uses it in their own writings.
  zh: 好吧，但是再说一次，这是同样的词——我很惊讶你这么说——当保罗使用这个词时，保罗一贯的用法，这必须是你在定义一个词时首先要问的，就是某人在他自己的著作中如何使用它。
- start: 3632.926
  end: 3638.248
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says he has been willing to suffer the loss of all things for the sake of Christ.
  zh: 他说他为基督的缘故，愿意受万事的亏损。
- start: 3638.248
  end: 3641.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He wasn’t saying that he was undergoing punishment.
  zh: 他不是在说他正在经受惩罚。
- start: 3641.589
  end: 3644.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When Paul uses words, does he always use them in the same way?
  zh: 当保罗使用词语时，他总是用相同的方式使用吗？
- start: 3645.233
  end: 3653.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, but the first place you go to is to ask about the syntactical category, the lexical domain that he is utilizing.
  zh: 不是，但你首先要问的是他所使用的句法类别，词汇范畴。
- start: 3654.822
  end: 3665.231
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If he doesn’t use it in multiple different ways— which he doesn’t in his writings—then if you’re going to say this is the one exception, you have to provide something in the context that demonstrates that that’s the case.
  zh: 如果他没有用多种不同的方式使用它——在他的著作中确实没有——那么如果你要说这是唯一的例外，你必须在上下文中提供一些证明这种情况的内容。
- start: 3665.231
  end: 3668.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does the BDAG Greek Lexicon say this is referring to punishment?
  zh: BDAG希腊语词典说这是指惩罚吗？
- start: 3668.707
  end: 3671.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is one of the meanings that is given, yes.
  zh: 是的，这是给出的含义之一。
- start: 3671.189
  end: 3675.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is the meaning connected to 1 Corinthians 3:15? I don’t have it in front of me, but I’ll take your word for it.
  zh: 这个含义是否与哥林多前书3:15相关？我手边没有词典，但我相信你的话。
- start: 3675.553
  end: 3679.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, it’s not my ultimate interpretive device; that’s fine.
  zh: 好的，这不是我最终的解释工具，没关系。
- start: 3680.277
  end: 3681.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nor is yours.
  zh: 你的也不是。
- start: 3681.218
  end: 3684.06
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is the loss of rewards a bad thing for the believer?
  zh: 失去赏赐对信徒来说是坏事吗？
- start: 3687.023
  end: 3695.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Again, this is talking about determining what is gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, and stubble.
  zh: 再说一次，这是在谈论判定什么是金、银、宝石、木、草、禾秸。
- start: 3695.161
  end: 3699.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is being shown is the nature of the works.
  zh: 所显明的是工程的本质。
- start: 3699.643
  end: 3709.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now I agree, if my works are burned up, I’m very much a person who is going to be deeply troubled by that taking place.
  zh: 现在我同意，如果我的工程被烧毁，我确实会是一个对这种事发生深感困扰的人。
- start: 3709.308
  end: 3722.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, James, if God looks at you and says, “You worked with bad motivations as a Christian worker,” these were the glorious rewards you would have had, and now you will never have them—will you feel bad?
  zh: 所以，詹姆斯，如果神看着你说：「你作为一个基督徒工人，带着错误的动机工作」，这些本来是你可以得到的荣耀赏赐，而现在你永远不会得到它们——你会感到难过吗？
- start: 3722.492
  end: 3723.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, I’ll feel bad.
  zh: 是的，我会感到难过。
- start: 3723.693
  end: 3730.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so after death—so after death, God is—except this is at the Day of the Lord.
  zh: 好的，所以在死后——所以在死后，神是——除了这是在主的日子。
- start: 3730.955
  end: 3731.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the great judgment.
  zh: 这是大审判。
- start: 3731.915
  end: 3735.016
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s obviously not in reference to—so let’s say we make it to the Day of the Lord.
  zh: 这显然不是指——所以让我们假设我们活到主的日子。
- start: 3735.016
  end: 3735.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who knows?
  zh: 谁知道呢？
- start: 3735.436
  end: 3736.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Maybe that’s what the Amber Alert was about.
  zh: 也许这就是琥珀警报的内容。
- start: 3736.756
  end: 3737.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who knows?
  zh: 谁知道呢？
- start: 3737.177
  end: 3737.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’ll see.
  zh: 我们拭目以待。
- start: 3738.857
  end: 3741.077
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It may have been a Silver Alert; they’re looking for me.
  zh: 可能是银色警报；他们在找我。
- start: 3745.079
  end: 3758.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So my point there is that if a father causes his child to feel bad because the child did something bad, is that punishment?
  zh: 所以我的观点是，如果一个父亲因为孩子做了坏事而让孩子感到难过，这是惩罚吗？
- start: 3758.271
  end: 3759.473
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Different context.
  zh: 不同的上下文。
- start: 3759.833
  end: 3761.273
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I’m asking you something very general.
  zh: 我在问你一个很普遍的问题。
- start: 3761.273
  end: 3766.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you want to leave 1 Corinthians 3 and we can now maybe go to Hebrews or something like that, that’s fine.
  zh: 如果你想离开哥林多前书3章，我们现在可以去看希伯来书或其他什么，那也可以。
- start: 3766.375
  end: 3773.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But we can’t connect these things together because this is not talking about a father making a child feel bad.
  zh: 但我们不能把这些事联系在一起，因为这不是在谈论父亲让孩子感到难过。
- start: 3773.177
  end: 3781.179
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is talking about the justice of God revealing why workers in the Church did certain things.
  zh: 这是在谈论神的公义显明教会中的工人为什么做某些事。
- start: 3781.239
  end: 3788.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If an authority takes away a good thing from me because I did something bad, is that punishment?
  zh: 如果一个权柄因为我做了坏事而拿走我的好处，这是惩罚吗？
- start: 3789.281
  end: 3791.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not what this is talking about either.
  zh: 这也不是在谈论这个。
- start: 3791.063
  end: 3799.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you don't think that God permanently revoking heavenly rewards because we worked with bad—I would say sinful—motivations in this life?
  zh: 所以你不认为神因为我们在今生带着不好的——我要说是有罪的——动机工作而永久收回天上的赏赐？
- start: 3799.234
  end: 3819.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is a demonstration to the world at the Day of Judgment of what was gold, silver, and precious stones and what wasn't. I’m very thankful that that’s going to take place because there’s so much false stuff going on in the name of Christ today that I can know that at the final day, there will be justice done.
  zh: 这是在审判日向世界显明什么是金、银、宝石，什么不是。我非常感恩这事将要发生，因为今天有太多假的事情以基督的名义发生，我知道在最后的日子，公义必将得到伸张。
- start: 3819.955
  end: 3821.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I agree.
  zh: 我同意。
- start: 3821.236
  end: 3823.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now let’s go to my other argument then.
  zh: 那么现在让我们来看我的另一个论点。
- start: 3824.779
  end: 3825.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How much time do we have, by the way?
  zh: 顺便问一下，我们还有多少时间？
- start: 3825.72
  end: 3827.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I have two minutes and 25 seconds.
  zh: 我还有两分二十五秒。
- start: 3827.401
  end: 3830.843
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, for this first half.
  zh: 好的，对于这第一部分。
- start: 3831.144
  end: 3832.545
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So just look at my argument.
  zh: 所以就看看我的论点。
- start: 3832.545
  end: 3835.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Premise one: God can purify Christians of their desire for sin.'
  zh: 前提一：神能洁净基督徒的罪恶欲望。
- start: 3835.266
  end: 3836.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that true?
  zh: 这是真的吗？
- start: 3836.046
  end: 3836.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3836.586
  end: 3838.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No one in heaven will desire sin?
  zh: 在天堂里没有人会有罪恶的欲望？
- start: 3839.047
  end: 3839.488
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Right.
  zh: 对的。
- start: 3839.488
  end: 3840.268
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Correct.
  zh: 正确。
- start: 3840.668
  end: 3843.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Do some Christians still desire sin at the moment they die?
  zh: 有些基督徒在死亡时刻仍然有罪恶的欲望吗？
- start: 3843.929
  end: 3844.589
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yep.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3844.77
  end: 3853.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so wouldn’t it follow then that after death, something will have to happen to those Christians so they will not desire sin when they enter into heaven?
  zh: 好的，那么是不是就意味着在死后，这些基督徒必须经历某些事，这样他们进入天堂时就不会有罪恶的欲望？
- start: 3853.754
  end: 3856.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, death is a definite transitional issue.
  zh: 是的，死亡确实是一个转变的问题。
- start: 3856.335
  end: 3863.514
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But unfortunately— But unfortunately, what’s missing from the argument is the concept of punishment.
  zh: 但不幸的是——但不幸的是，这个论点中缺少惩罚的概念。
- start: 3863.794
  end: 3866.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m not talking about punishment; I’m making an argument from purification.
  zh: 我不是在谈论惩罚；我是在从洁净的角度进行论证。
- start: 3866.556
  end: 3871.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The doctrine of purgatory, in your own official documents, does use the term punishment.
  zh: 在你们自己的官方文件中，炼狱的教义确实使用了惩罚这个词。
- start: 3871.44
  end: 3875.703
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that’s where the issue is.
  zh: 所以这就是问题所在。
- start: 3875.984
  end: 3881.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You’re confusing one of the issues where we disagree with one another; you’re confusing sanctification and justification.
  zh: 你混淆了我们彼此不同意的一个问题；你混淆了成圣和称义。
- start: 3881.69
  end: 3888.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, well what I have quoted from—and I’m just going from the official magisterial teaching—I did make two arguments, and we just got done talking about punishment.
  zh: 好的，我引用的——我只是引用官方训导的教导——我确实提出了两个论点，我们刚刚讨论完惩罚。
- start: 3888.834
  end: 3893.216
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You just didn’t want to accept that 1 Corinthians 3 is about punishment, so I’m talking about purification.
  zh: 你只是不想接受哥林多前书3章是关于惩罚的，所以我在谈论洁净。
- start: 3893.216
  end: 3894.497
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, no, no, you can’t interrupt me.
  zh: 不，不，不，你不能打断我。
- start: 3894.497
  end: 3895.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I get to interrupt you.
  zh: 我可以打断你。
- start: 3895.137
  end: 3896.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You’ll have plenty of time for that next round.
  zh: 你在下一轮会有充足的时间。
- start: 3898.259
  end: 3905.963
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you agree, though, you agree that God, if our sanctification is not complete at death, it will be complete before we enter heaven?
  zh: 所以你同意，你同意如果我们的成圣在死时还未完成，在我们进入天堂之前它会完成？
- start: 3905.963
  end: 3906.623
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3907.148
  end: 3921.537
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so under some Protestant views of purgatory, such as what C.S. Lewis or Jerry Walls or others argue, would that be a Protestant view of purgatory that would be a biblical view that you would say is acceptable?
  zh: 好的，那么根据一些新教对炼狱的看法，比如C.S.路易斯或杰里·沃尔斯或其他人的论点，这种新教对炼狱的看法会是你认为可以接受的符合圣经的观点吗？
- start: 3921.537
  end: 3924.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: With Jerry Walls sitting right there, I’ll say no.
  zh: 既然杰里·沃尔斯就坐在那里，我要说不。
- start: 3924.839
  end: 3925.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is he here?
  zh: 他在这里吗？
- start: 3925.359
  end: 3925.94
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yep.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 3925.94
  end: 3927.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Say hi, wave.
  zh: 打个招呼，挥挥手。
- start: 3927.441
  end: 3928.401
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hey!
  zh: 嘿！
- start: 3928.401
  end: 3932.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Look at that, we’ve got to hang out and talk later.
  zh: 看看这个，我们之后得聚在一起谈谈。
- start: 3933.416
  end: 3935.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That says all you need to know there.
  zh: 这就说明了你需要知道的一切。
- start: 3935.098
  end: 3940.205
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I tried to be very clear—this is your time.
  zh: 但我试图说得很清楚——这是你的时间。
- start: 3940.205
  end: 3942.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, I’m all starstruck now!
  zh: 好吧，我现在完全被明星震撼到了！
- start: 3948.463
  end: 3951.384
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That was an effective work on my part, wasn’t it?
  zh: 这是我做得很有效的一步，不是吗？
- start: 3951.384
  end: 3953.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Was that pretty good?
  zh: 那做得不错吧？
- start: 3953.244
  end: 3956.765
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’ll give you that; that was a good ringer!
  zh: 我承认；那是个好招！
- start: 3956.765
  end: 3958.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James, I think Jerry can appreciate this.
  zh: 詹姆斯，我想杰里能理解这一点。
- start: 3958.346
  end: 3960.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I understand there are different models of purgatory.
  zh: 我理解炼狱有不同的模式。
- start: 3960.787
  end: 3966.468
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There is a model that could be called the sanctification model and another that we might call the satisfaction model.
  zh: 有一种可以称为成圣模式的模型，另一种我们可能称为补偿模式。
- start: 3966.668
  end: 3974.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But satisfaction doesn’t mean you’re paying a legal debt of punishment; it means that you are making amends for what you can.
  zh: 但补偿并不意味着你在偿还惩罚的法律债务；它意味着你在尽可能地弥补。
- start: 3974.911
  end: 3976.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that meant to be a question?
  zh: 这是要问一个问题吗？
- start: 3976.571
  end: 3980.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, it was just me coming off being starstruck, Jerry—we’ll talk later.
  zh: 不，那只是我还没从见到明星的震撼中恢复过来，杰里——我们之后再谈。
- start: 3980.815
  end: 3985.519
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There you go.
  zh: 就是这样。
- start: 3987.942
  end: 4004.731
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, let’s go back to 1 Corinthians chapter 3. Let’s actually work through this one because it’s so vitally important, beginning in verse 10. Paul is the architect who has laid a foundation there in Corinth.
  zh: 好的，让我们回到哥林多前书第3章。让我们实际来研究这段经文，因为它非常重要，从第10节开始。保罗是在哥林多立了根基的建筑师。
- start: 4004.731
  end: 4008.332
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would you accept that to be a good starting place?
  zh: 你认为这是个好的起点吗？
- start: 4008.332
  end: 4009.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, sure.
  zh: 是的，当然。
- start: 4009.553
  end: 4012.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And now he says other people are building upon it.
  zh: 现在他说其他人在其上建造。
- start: 4013.014
  end: 4020.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In Corinthians, you have the super-apostles; there are obviously people questioning Paul’s authority and such, so this is probably the background of what he’s referring to, right?
  zh: 在哥林多书信中，你看到那些超级使徒；显然有人质疑保罗的权柄等等，所以这可能是他所指的背景，对吧？
- start: 4021.698
  end: 4025.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, he’s talking about Christian workers, but he’s using them as an example.
  zh: 是的，他在谈论基督徒工人，但他是在用他们作为例子。
- start: 4025.853
  end: 4029.774
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn’t follow that what he says only applies to Christian workers.
  zh: 这并不意味着他说的只适用于基督徒工人。
- start: 4030.055
  end: 4049.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so when he talks about oikodomai—to build upon the foundation—do all Christians, is this a universal statement, or is this something specifically about people who are building upon the foundation in the Church?
  zh: 好的，所以当他谈到oikodomai——在根基上建造——是所有基督徒，这是一个普遍性的陈述，还是特别指在教会中在根基上建造的人？
- start: 4049.324
  end: 4053.366
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, it is specifically about ministers like him or Apollos.
  zh: 嗯，这特别是关于像他或亚波罗这样的传道人。
- start: 4053.374
  end: 4059.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But Paul also refers generally to Christians in saying we are God’s co-workers.
  zh: 但保罗在说我们是神的同工时也普遍指所有基督徒。
- start: 4059.959
  end: 4064.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are a kingdom of priests, as Peter says in his epistle.
  zh: 正如彼得在他的书信中说，我们是祭司的国度。
- start: 4064.523
  end: 4068.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So all of us are called to build on the foundation of Christ to build up the body of Christ.
  zh: 所以我们都被呼召在基督的根基上建造，建立基督的身体。
- start: 4069.087
  end: 4071.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a specific example, but it logically applies to all Christians.
  zh: 这是一个具体的例子，但从逻辑上讲适用于所有基督徒。
- start: 4071.529
  end: 4080.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, but in this particular text, he is specifically talking about those who are building upon the foundation in Corinth.
  zh: 好的，但在这个特定的经文中，他特别谈到那些在哥林多在根基上建造的人。
- start: 4081.297
  end: 4087.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you want to expand upon that outside of that, I’m not going to argue about that.
  zh: 如果你想在此之外扩展，我不会争论。
- start: 4087.518
  end: 4107.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But when he says, If a certain one builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, would you agree that the fundamental difference between the first three and the last three is their durability under testing by fire?
  zh: 但当他说，若有人用金、银、宝石、木、草、禾秸在这根基上建造，你同意前三者和后三者的根本区别是它们在火的试验下的耐久性吗？
- start: 4108.444
  end: 4117.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, there’s a symbol that there is something defective about the latter that is revealed, and something that is superior about the former.
  zh: 是的，这象征着后者被显明有缺陷，而前者有优越之处。
- start: 4117.13
  end: 4132.439
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, however you interpret it, it will ultimately go back to the fact that there is something morally superior about some who are tested and withstand it, and something that is morally defective that will be revealed, whether it’s a person or even a motivation, as you claim.
  zh: 所以，无论你如何解释，最终都会回到这个事实：那些经受试验并承受住的人有某种道德上的优越性，而那些有道德缺陷的，无论是人还是如你所说的动机，都会被显明。
- start: 4132.788
  end: 4143.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so what does ergon mean when it says that each one’s ergon, each one’s work, will be made manifest?
  zh: 好的，那么当说每个人的ergon，每个人的工程，将要显明时，ergon是什么意思？
- start: 4144.641
  end: 4145.382
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is that work?
  zh: 那工程是什么？
- start: 4145.382
  end: 4148.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is it not the work that has been built upon the foundation?
  zh: 难道不是建在根基上的工程吗？
- start: 4148.786
  end: 4150.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, it could mean different things.
  zh: 嗯，它可能有不同的含义。
- start: 4150.808
  end: 4157.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It could refer to their motivations, as you say, for why they have engaged in ministry.
  zh: 它可能指的是如你所说的他们参与事工的动机。
- start: 4157.923
  end: 4166.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I gave an argument based on the work of Frayer-Griggs and others that the ergon, the work, are actually the disciples that they were forming.
  zh: 但我基于弗雷尔-格里格斯等人的著作提出论点，认为ergon，即工程，实际上是他们所培养的门徒。
- start: 4166.791
  end: 4176.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What their work was—raising up other Christians to be holy—and if they had bad motivations, they were lackluster; they were poor pastors, and their disciples suffer or go to hell.
  zh: 他们的工作是——培养其他基督徒成为圣洁——如果他们动机不良，他们就是平庸的；他们是糟糕的牧者，他们的门徒受苦或下地狱。
- start: 4176.66
  end: 4178.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They’ll be held responsible for that.
  zh: 他们要为此负责。
- start: 4178.607
  end: 4188.09
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So yes, I looked at that book, and it is a unique idea, which he admits is not mainstream at all and certainly does not align with the Drome Bible Commentary either.
  zh: 是的，我看过那本书，这是一个独特的想法，他承认这完全不是主流观点，也肯定与德罗姆圣经注释不一致。
- start: 4189.09
  end: 4196.806
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you're suggesting that the work that will be manifested is converts, disciples, or other Christians being ministered to?
  zh: 所以你是在说那将要显明的工程是归信者、门徒，或其他被牧养的基督徒？
- start: 4196.806
  end: 4200.189
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I said that’s one possible interpretation, but even your interpretation would be fine.
  zh: 我说那是一种可能的解释，但即使是你的解释也可以。
- start: 4200.189
  end: 4203.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But how can that be gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw?
  zh: 但这怎么可能是金、银、宝石、木、草、禾秸呢？
- start: 4203.471
  end: 4204.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A convert's a convert.
  zh: 归信者就是归信者。
- start: 4204.491
  end: 4220.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, there are people who can be—because it's symbolized just like in Malachi chapter 3, where the sons of Levi are symbolized as gold or silver; they’re symbolized as stones in Malachi 3. Okay, so their work is their disciples?
  zh: 我是说，有些人可以是——因为这是象征性的，就像在玛拉基书第3章，利未的子孙被象征为金或银；他们在玛拉基书3章被象征为石头。好的，所以他们的工程就是他们的门徒？
- start: 4220.056
  end: 4222.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, I think that’s a good interpretation.
  zh: 是的，我认为这是个好解释。
- start: 4222.417
  end: 4227.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the day will show it, for it will be revealed by fire.
  zh: 因为那日子要将它显明出来，有火要试验。
- start: 4228.961
  end: 4240.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so what does that have to do with their being purified by a satis-passio in purgatory?
  zh: 好的，那么这与他们在炼狱中通过补赎而得洁净有什么关系？
- start: 4240.168
  end: 4243.87
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because we’re talking about their disciples—who’s being purified?
  zh: 因为我们在谈论他们的门徒——谁在被洁净？
- start: 4244.147
  end: 4252.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, it’s possible that the fire is purifying the morally superior ones that only have light blemishes.
  zh: 嗯，这火可能是在洁净那些只有轻微瑕疵的道德上优越的人。
- start: 4252.752
  end: 4259.976
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Fire (pyro) is used frequently as purificatory imagery in the New Testament.
  zh: 火（pyro）在新约中经常被用作洁净的象征。
- start: 4260.716
  end: 4263.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It reveals that people have different ideas about that.
  zh: 这显示人们对此有不同的看法。
- start: 4263.318
  end: 4278.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it would reveal that for the ones that are costly stones, there are slight imperfections that are removed, but for the ones that are objectively morally defective—wood, hay, or straw—they are destroyed at the judgment because they are actually not united to God; they are damned.
  zh: 所以这会显明那些宝石，它们的轻微瑕疵被除去，但那些在道德上有客观缺陷的——木、草、禾秸——它们在审判时被毁灭，因为他们实际上没有与神联合；他们被定罪了。
- start: 4280.104
  end: 4285.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it’s revealed who is saved and who is damned because we don’t know that in this life.
  zh: 这显明了谁得救谁被定罪，因为我们在今生并不知道这些。
- start: 4285.615
  end: 4289.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then the builder is judged for what happened to his disciples.
  zh: 然后建造的人要为他门徒的结局受审判。
- start: 4289.357
  end: 4291.677
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s one explanation, one interpretation.
  zh: 这是一种解释，一种诠释。
- start: 4291.677
  end: 4294.459
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you don’t have an infallible interpretation of the text?
  zh: 所以你没有对这段经文的无误解释？
- start: 4294.459
  end: 4299.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, the Catholic Church only offers a handful of infallible interpretations of Scripture, and this isn’t one of them.
  zh: 没有，公教会只对少数几处经文提供无误解释，这不是其中之一。
- start: 4299.701
  end: 4301.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is even close?
  zh: 这甚至接近吗？
- start: 4301.441
  end: 4304.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, it’s just one I’m putting out there, and I think it’s pretty neat and interesting.
  zh: 不，这只是我提出的一种解释，我觉得很巧妙有趣。
- start: 4304.783
  end: 4308.024
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So “for the day will show it.”
  zh: 所以「因为那日子要将它显明出来」。
- start: 4309.377
  end: 4310.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is the Day?
  zh: 那日子是什么？
- start: 4310.658
  end: 4313.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Day is the final judgment at the end of the world.
  zh: 那日子是世界末了的最后审判。
- start: 4313.659
  end: 4320.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When Paul was writing 1 Corinthians, he was probably under the mindset that the Day of the Lord was very soon, within his lifetime.
  zh: 当保罗写哥林多前书时，他可能认为主的日子很快就到，会在他有生之年来临。
- start: 4320.862
  end: 4325.143
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Though by the end of his life, he seems to come to the conclusion that the Day of the Lord is further off.
  zh: 虽然到了他生命的末期，他似乎得出结论，主的日子还要更远。
- start: 4325.143
  end: 4332.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So he seemed to be under the understanding that he and other workers would not have a natural death; they would probably be present when the Lord returned.
  zh: 所以他似乎认为他和其他工人不会自然死亡；他们可能会在主回来时还在世。
- start: 4332.346
  end: 4335.567
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You said in your book that you got that from Jimmy Akin.
  zh: 你在你的书中说你是从吉米·埃金那里得到这个观点的。
- start: 4335.862
  end: 4337.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I thought I’d give him credit.
  zh: 我想我应该给他署名。
- start: 4337.423
  end: 4341.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh yeah, Jimmy’s a great guy, so there you go.
  zh: 哦是的，吉米是个很棒的人，就是这样。
- start: 4341.427
  end: 4363.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So your argument that this is the Day of the Lord—if it is the Day of the Lord, and Paul understood what the Day of the Lord was—then it couldn’t be purgatory, because my understanding is that purgatory is something that is experienced by an individual person before the Day of the Lord, right?
  zh: 所以你说这是主的日子——如果这是主的日子，而且保罗理解主的日子是什么——那么这就不可能是炼狱，因为据我理解，炼狱是个人在主的日子之前经历的事情，对吧？
- start: 4363.702
  end: 4379.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, for most people, if we die, the Day of the Lord has not arrived; we have not come to the second coming or the judgment of sin, which is, for example, in 2 Corinthians chapter 5. So the purification that takes place after death is something that happens now.
  zh: 嗯，对大多数人来说，如果我们死了，主的日子还没有到；我们还没有到达第二次降临或罪的审判，比如在哥林多后书第5章中说的。所以死后发生的洁净是现在就发生的事。
- start: 4379.43
  end: 4387.034
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'And I need to be clear about this: the official teaching of the Catholic Church asserts there’s no teaching on the duration of purgatory.'
  zh: 我需要说清楚这一点：公教会的官方教导声明没有关于炼狱持续时间的教导。
- start: 4387.034
  end: 4389.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There has been theological speculation about that.
  zh: 关于这点有神学上的推测。
- start: 4389.535
  end: 4399.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But just as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, maybe it’s the case that after death, the purification process is instantaneous or that time is different in purgatory.
  zh: 但就像保罗在哥林多前书15章说我们会在一眨眼之间改变，也许死后的洁净过程是瞬间的，或者在炼狱中时间是不同的。
- start: 4399.379
  end: 4408.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: St. Thomas Aquinas said that in the afterlife, we go through eternity, so the time that is connected to earth or in purgatory is too disanalogous to judge.
  zh: 圣托马斯阿奎那说，在来世，我们经历永恒，所以与地上或炼狱相连的时间太不相似，无法判断。
- start: 4408.403
  end: 4414.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s why when you said that indulgences take time off in purgatory, medieval people did not believe that.
  zh: 这就是为什么当你说大赦能减少炼狱的时间时，中世纪的人并不相信这点。
- start: 4415.013
  end: 4418.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’ll get back to that one in just a moment.
  zh: 我们一会儿再回到那个问题。
- start: 4419.176
  end: 4436.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: To make this relevant to purgatory, you have to accept the idea that Paul had an erroneous idea of when the Day was going to take place because the actual doctrine of purgatory would indicate that.
  zh: 要使这与炼狱有关，你必须接受保罗对那日子何时发生有错误认识的想法，因为实际的炼狱教义表明这一点。
- start: 4436.588
  end: 4440.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Are people undergoing this now?
  zh: 人们现在正在经历这个吗？
- start: 4440.331
  end: 4444.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If it’s temporal, are their souls in purgatory now?
  zh: 如果是暂时的，他们的灵魂现在在炼狱中吗？
- start: 4444.707
  end: 4445.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 4445.107
  end: 4445.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes?
  zh: 是吗？
- start: 4446.007
  end: 4446.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 4446.668
  end: 4448.248
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the Day hasn't come yet.
  zh: 而那日子还没有到。
- start: 4448.608
  end: 4450.429
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nope.
  zh: 没有。
- start: 4450.429
  end: 4467.475
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the fundamental assumption that has to be made, that you argued and borrowed from Jimmy Akin, is that Paul was wrong about the Day at the point he wrote 1 Corinthians and then later got a better idea that it was going to be way down the road.
  zh: 所以必须做出的基本假设，就是你从吉米·埃金那里借鉴并论证的，是保罗在写哥林多前书时对那日子的认识是错误的，后来才得到更好的认识，知道那还要很久以后。
- start: 4467.594
  end: 4473.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, but there’s nothing problematic about him thinking something is going to happen and then it doesn’t happen.
  zh: 是的，但他认为某事会发生然后没有发生，这并没有什么问题。
- start: 4475.317
  end: 4488.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I don''t see the problem there: in Paul thinking God is going to do one thing and He doesn’t. He’s not making a declarative statement that the Day of the Lord is going to come on X date, for example; that would fall under biblical inerrancy or something like that.'
  zh: 我看不出有什么问题：保罗认为神要做一件事而他没有做。他并没有宣告主的日子要在某个具体日期来到，比如说；那才会涉及圣经无误之类的问题。
- start: 4488.743
  end: 4504.032
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But even if that’s not the case, the point is, he is saying that at the final judgment—so whenever the Day takes place—there are going to be negative consequences for people who did bad things in this life.
  zh: 但即使不是这样，关键是，他在说在最后的审判时——无论那日子何时来到——在今生做坏事的人会有负面的后果。
- start: 4504.032
  end: 4505.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That purification will take place.
  zh: 那洁净会发生。
- start: 4505.653
  end: 4516.841
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Day of the Lord is not the embrace of the beatific vision; there’s still going to be a judgment—the separating of the sheep and the goats—the judgment that is in 2 Corinthians 5, verses 8-10. I already spoke about that.
  zh: 主的日子不是拥抱真福直观；仍然会有审判——绵羊和山羊的分别——就是在哥林多后书5章8-10节中的审判。我已经谈过这个了。
- start: 4516.841
  end: 4527.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So there’s no problem in Paul saying that at the final judgment, before you enter into heaven, out of the beatific vision, there will be judgment and there will be purification for the saved who are not fully sanctified.
  zh: 所以保罗说在最后审判时，在进入天堂之前，在真福直观之外，将有审判，并且对那些未完全成圣的得救之人将有洁净，这没有问题。
- start: 4527.873
  end: 4533.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, but are you thinking that “apocalyptic” means purification?
  zh: 好的，但你认为「启示性的」意味着洁净吗？
- start: 4533.338
  end: 4534.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, it means revelation.
  zh: 不，它意味着显明。
- start: 4535.938
  end: 4543.523
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so the revelation by fire is showing what the works were, or you say what converts are, or giving motivations.
  zh: 好的，所以藉火显明是显示这些工程是什么，或者如你所说是显示归信者是什么，或者显示动机。
- start: 4543.564
  end: 4556.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then it goes on from there, and it says that the fire will make this known, and if a certain one’s work abides, which he has built, he will receive a reward.
  zh: 但接下来说，火要试验这工程，人在上面所建造的工程若存得住，他就要得赏赐。
- start: 4557.174
  end: 4560.696
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So is this in purgatory?
  zh: 所以这是在炼狱中吗？
- start: 4560.982
  end: 4562.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is this in purgatory?
  zh: 这是在炼狱中吗？
- start: 4562.664
  end: 4565.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Church doesn’t teach that purgatory is a place.
  zh: 教会并不教导炼狱是一个地方。
- start: 4565.286
  end: 4567.588
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think that’s where we’re having a disagreement here.
  zh: 我想这就是我们有分歧的地方。
- start: 4567.588
  end: 4571.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Once again, there’s speculation about that, but is this purgatorially done?
  zh: 再说一次，这有推测的成分，但这是通过炼狱完成的吗？
- start: 4571.931
  end: 4573.993
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is this a process of purification?
  zh: 这是一个洁净的过程吗？
- start: 4573.993
  end: 4582.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Yeah, just like what I quoted from Randy Alcorn: that when bad things happen to you at the judgment, like losing rewards, you’re going to feel bad.'
  zh: 是的，就像我引用兰迪·阿尔康的话：当在审判时坏事发生在你身上，比如失去赏赐，你会感到难过。
- start: 4582.3
  end: 4589.546
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And God doesn’t make us feel bad for an arbitrary reason; He does it so that our wills are reordered, so we can be perfectly holy and enter into heaven.
  zh: 神让我们感到难过不是没有原因的；他这样做是为了重整我们的意志，使我们能完全圣洁地进入天堂。
- start: 4592.952
  end: 4593.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay.
  zh: 好的。
- start: 4600.337
  end: 4610.863
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, so so far have we found agreement that someone could hold a model of purgatory that would be called the sanctification model—that God completes our sanctification after death?
  zh: 好的，那么到目前为止我们是否达成共识，即有人可以持有一种被称为成圣模式的炼狱模型——就是神在死后完成我们的成圣？
- start: 4613.785
  end: 4642.318
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t have any idea why purgatory would be associated with that because I think you just said a moment ago that purgatory might be instantaneous, and hence there could not possibly be any objection that you would make to then say to a non-Catholic who says that when we die, we enter directly into the presence of Christ and we have been transformed.
  zh: 我不明白为什么炼狱会与此相关，因为我想你刚才说过炼狱可能是瞬间的，因此你不可能对一个非公教徒说当我们死时，我们直接进入基督的同在并被改变这样的说法提出任何反对。
- start: 4642.778
  end: 4652.755
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Therefore, the new is fully manifest, and the old has passed away; we can enter directly into the presence of God.
  zh: 因此，新的完全显明，旧的已经过去；我们可以直接进入神的同在。
- start: 4652.755
  end: 4658.477
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it won't be the process of death because all of us die, but not all of us go to heaven.
  zh: 但这不会是死亡的过程，因为我们都会死，但不是所有人都会上天堂。
- start: 4658.477
  end: 4660.458
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not death that would change us.
  zh: 不是死亡使我们改变。
- start: 4660.838
  end: 4667.341
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, of course not, but we have already been given a new nature in Jesus Christ, and so we have already been made new creatures.
  zh: 不，当然不是，但我们在耶稣基督里已经得到了新性情，所以我们已经成为新造的人。
- start: 4667.589
  end: 4675.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We live in the now and the not yet; we are already in that position where we love God and we have those desires for God, and we have that new nature.
  zh: 我们活在现在和未来之间；我们已经处在爱神的位置上，我们有对神的渴慕，我们有那新性情。
- start: 4675.692
  end: 4681.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When we die, those final attachments to sin, that abiding sin that we struggle with, is gone.
  zh: 当我们死时，那些最后的罪的依恋，我们挣扎的那个存留的罪，就消失了。
- start: 4681.815
  end: 4689.358
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we are now—I'm going to finish this sentence—we are now clothed in the righteousness of Christ and therefore can enter directly into His presence.
  zh: 所以我们现在——我要说完这句话——我们现在披戴着基督的义，因此可以直接进入他的同在。
- start: 4689.358
  end: 4694.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, wait, when does our attachment to sin vanish?
  zh: 等等，我们对罪的依恋什么时候消失？
- start: 4695.08
  end: 4695.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: At death?
  zh: 在死亡时吗？
- start: 4696.533
  end: 4698.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does that happen to everybody?
  zh: 这会发生在每个人身上吗？
- start: 4699.535
  end: 4704.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No. So you’re saying at death, God purifies us of sin.
  zh: 不。所以你是说在死亡时，神洁净我们的罪。
- start: 4705.1
  end: 4712.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’ve already been purified from the punishment of sin, but we still experience abiding sin in our life.
  zh: 我们已经从罪的惩罚中得洁净，但我们在生活中仍然经历存留的罪。
- start: 4712.646
  end: 4716.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s what sanctification is about; that’s what conformance to the image of Christ is about.
  zh: 这就是成圣的意义；这就是效法基督形象的意义。
- start: 4716.529
  end: 4722.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then when God calls us out of this world, He now has us going to a different place.
  zh: 然后当神呼召我们离开这个世界时，他让我们去一个不同的地方。
- start: 4723.678
  end: 4733.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason for the continuation of that struggle is gone, and we enter into His presence, not on the basis of who we are or what we are, but on the basis of what Christ has done in our place.
  zh: 那种挣扎继续的原因消失了，我们进入他的同在，不是基于我们是谁或我们是什么，而是基于基督在我们位上所做的。
- start: 4733.486
  end: 4738.929
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the reason I desire sin in this life is something related to my soul, correct?
  zh: 所以我在今生渴望罪的原因是与我的灵魂有关的，对吗？
- start: 4740.471
  end: 4741.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Related to my soul?
  zh: 与我的灵魂有关？
- start: 4741.792
  end: 4745.795
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, there is something about—we call it abiding sin.
  zh: 是的，有一些关于——我们称之为存留的罪。
- start: 4747.831
  end: 4757.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're no longer under the reigning power of that sin, but it is still in our fleshly bodies.
  zh: 我们不再在那罪的统治权下，但它仍在我们肉体中。
- start: 4757.313
  end: 4760.794
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m not sure what you mean by soul at that point.
  zh: 我不确定你在这点上说的灵魂是什么意思。
- start: 4761.294
  end: 4770.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is it possible that this sanctification model of purgatory, since it could be instantaneous, could also be a process?
  zh: 这种炼狱的成圣模式，既然可能是瞬间的，有没有可能也是一个过程？
- start: 4770.056
  end: 4779.533
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just as we undergo a process of sanctification in this life, that God will have us undergo a process of sanctification in the next life—is that possible?
  zh: 就像我们在今生经历成圣的过程，神会让我们在来世经历成圣的过程——这有可能吗？
- start: 4779.674
  end: 4786.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Bible does not teach that, and I’m assuming that you’re referring to something other than the Roman Catholic doctrine.
  zh: 圣经并没有教导这点，而且我假设你指的是罗马公教会教义之外的东西。
- start: 4786.456
  end: 4791.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because then we have to talk about punishments for temporal consequences of sin.
  zh: 因为那样的话我们就必须讨论罪的暂时后果的惩罚。
- start: 4792.318
  end: 4794.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let’s go to—I have a few other grab bags here.
  zh: 让我们转到——我这里还有一些其他问题。
- start: 4796.979
  end: 4807.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who would you say is the earliest Christian that held your view on the afterlife, that there are no post-mortem punishments or purification or anything like that?
  zh: 你认为最早持有你对来世的观点，即没有死后惩罚或洁净或任何类似事情的基督徒是谁？
- start: 4807.707
  end: 4809.247
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Peter, Paul, James.
  zh: 彼得、保罗、雅各。
- start: 4809.247
  end: 4816.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'All right, let me rephrase that: What Christian after the apostolic age?'
  zh: 好的，让我重新表述：使徒时代之后的哪位基督徒？
- start: 4816.55
  end: 4831.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Honestly, in light of these—especially books like this by Brian Daly, this documents the wide range of views.
  zh: 说实话，根据这些——特别是布莱恩·戴利这样的书，这记录了广泛的观点。
- start: 4831.655
  end: 4838.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The fact that even looking at someone like Gregory the Great, you can find him in one place saying we go directly into the presence of God.
  zh: 事实上，即使看像大贵格利这样的人，你也能在某处找到他说我们直接进入神的同在。
- start: 4838.692
  end: 4843.796
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Were there any Fathers in there that denied purgatory, that said that all believers immediately enter heaven?
  zh: 其中有没有任何教父否认炼狱，说所有信徒立即进入天堂？
- start: 4843.936
  end: 4845.277
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, denied purgatory.
  zh: 好的，否认炼狱。
- start: 4845.277
  end: 4848.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It wasn’t even a concept, so how could you deny it?
  zh: 这甚至都不是一个概念，那怎么能否认它呢？
- start: 4848.88
  end: 4855.266
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They didn’t deny that the Dallas Cowboys choke all the time in the playoffs either, but that’s still a reality.
  zh: 他们也没有否认达拉斯牛仔队在季后赛总是失利，但那仍是现实。
- start: 4855.266
  end: 4856.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sorry, Tom.
  zh: 抱歉，汤姆。
- start: 4856.827
  end: 4857.968
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sorry, Tom.
  zh: 抱歉，汤姆。
- start: 4858.549
  end: 4860.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Did Augustine believe in purgatory?
  zh: 奥古斯丁相信炼狱吗？
- start: 4860.966
  end: 4863.287
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not in the way you’d believe in it, no.
  zh: 不，不是按你相信的那种方式。
- start: 4863.507
  end: 4869.969
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He made statements concerning afterlife purgation, but that has nothing to do with it.
  zh: 他确实说过关于死后洁净的话，但那与此无关。
- start: 4869.969
  end: 4874.83
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Did he say that after death, people suffer pene purgatoriae?
  zh: 他说过死后人会受炼狱之苦吗？
- start: 4875.05
  end: 4882.713
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, but that had not been defined in the way that is defined by the Council of Florence, was it?
  zh: 是的，但那并没有按佛罗伦萨会议定义的方式来定义，不是吗？
- start: 4882.734
  end: 4888.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I am asking you if there—okay, since you like to quote people, Brian Daly says no.
  zh: 我在问你是否有——好吧，既然你喜欢引用别人，布莱恩·戴利说没有。
- start: 4888.867
  end: 4891.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, where does he say that?
  zh: 好的，他在哪里说的？
- start: 4891.7
  end: 4909.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In his section on Augustine, he very clearly delineates the limitations of his understanding of any type of—there’s nothing that would give rise, for example, to the concept of indulgences and the thesaurus meritorum and all the rest of that kind of stuff.
  zh: 在他论述奥古斯丁的部分，他非常清楚地划定了他对任何类型的理解的局限性——比如，没有任何东西会产生大赦的概念和功德宝库以及所有那些类似的东西。
- start: 4909.054
  end: 4911.116
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s still way down the road.
  zh: 那还是很久以后的事。
- start: 4911.116
  end: 4914.418
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You have to allow for the development.
  zh: 你必须允许发展。
- start: 4914.678
  end: 4928.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In Church history, is there any person in Church history after the apostolic age who you would say that yeah, their views on the afterlife when it comes to post-mortem purification or punishment is pretty similar to mine?
  zh: 在教会历史上，使徒时代之后有没有任何人，你会说是的，他们对来世的看法，特别是关于死后的洁净或惩罚，与你的很相似？
- start: 4928.717
  end: 4942.327
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, even John Chrysostom very clearly—in his—and you know this; you're the one doing the videos on these things—very clearly gave funeral orations and things like that, talking about the immediate entrance into the presence of Christ.
  zh: 嗯，即使是屈梭多模也很清楚地——在他的——你知道这个；你就是在做这些视频的人——很清楚地做过葬礼演说之类的事，谈到直接进入基督的同在。
- start: 4942.327
  end: 4944.989
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Did Chrysostom believe that the damned could be saved?
  zh: 屈梭多模相信被定罪的人能得救吗？
- start: 4945.269
  end: 4946.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not be saved, no.
  zh: 不能得救，不。
- start: 4947.251
  end: 4950.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He said they should pray for the damned to mitigate their suffering.
  zh: 他说应该为被定罪的人祷告以减轻他们的痛苦。
- start: 4950.093
  end: 4953.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He did not say they could be saved; that’s different.
  zh: 他没说他们能得救；那是不同的。
- start: 4953.524
  end: 4959.427
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, let’s go to the issue related to punishment.
  zh: 好的，让我们转到与惩罚相关的问题。
- start: 4959.427
  end: 4963.07
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, so my other argument here—my timer stopped.
  zh: 好的，所以我这里的另一个论点——我的计时器停了。
- start: 4963.07
  end: 4964.45
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Evan, how are we doing on time?
  zh: 埃文，我们的时间怎么样？
- start: 4964.63
  end: 4966.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Three minutes and 57 seconds.
  zh: 三分五十七秒。
- start: 4966.091
  end: 4967.712
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, three minutes and 55 seconds.
  zh: 好的，三分五十五秒。
- start: 4967.712
  end: 4971.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, let’s go back to my other argument then about sin and punishment.
  zh: 好的，那让我们回到我关于罪和惩罚的另一个论点。
- start: 4971.614
  end: 4980.599
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So premise one: When Christians sin, God unpleasantly disciplines them to morally perfect them.'
  zh: 所以前提一：当基督徒犯罪时，神会以不愉快的方式管教他们，使他们道德完全。
- start: 4980.82
  end: 4982.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would you say that’s true?
  zh: 你认为这是真的吗？
- start: 4983.547
  end: 4998.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God conforms the elect to the image of Christ, and that is described in the book of Hebrews as a father lovingly chastising his children because He wants us to be holy as Christ is holy.
  zh: 神使选民效法基督的形象，这在希伯来书中被描述为父亲慈爱地管教他的儿女，因为他要我们像基督那样圣洁。
- start: 4998.463
  end: 5001.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The term “unpleasant” isn’t relevant.
  zh: 「不愉快」这个词并不相关。
- start: 5002.427
  end: 5015.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, well, in Hebrews 12:11, it says, For the moment, all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
  zh: 好吧，在希伯来书12:11说：「凡管教的事，当时不觉得快乐，反觉得愁苦；后来却为那经练过的人结出平安的果子，就是义。」
- start: 5015.739
  end: 5019.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Doesn’t that clearly say that God unpleasantly disciplines us?
  zh: 这不是清楚地说神以不愉快的方式管教我们吗？
- start: 5019.944
  end: 5023.651
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you want to use that term, I will allow you to do so.
  zh: 如果你想用那个词，我允许你这样做。
- start: 5023.651
  end: 5025.612
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I will never preach a sermon using that term.
  zh: 我永远不会在讲道中使用那个词。
- start: 5025.612
  end: 5027.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m sorry, you won't preach what the Bible says?
  zh: 抱歉，你不会传讲圣经所说的话吗？
- start: 5027.573
  end: 5030.856
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, let’s go ahead; that’s a cheap shot, and you know it, and everybody in the room knows it too.
  zh: 好吧，让我们继续；那是一个廉价的攻击，你知道的，房间里的每个人也都知道。
- start: 5030.856
  end: 5032.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nope, it was just a fun one to put out there!
  zh: 不，那只是开个玩笑！
- start: 5032.877
  end: 5040.703
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'All right, so I think that’s very clear: when Christians sin, God unpleasantly disciplines them in order to morally perfect them.'
  zh: 好的，所以我认为这很清楚：当基督徒犯罪时，神以不愉快的方式管教他们，为要使他们道德完全。
- start: 5040.703
  end: 5043.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He’s not an arbitrary capricious monster.
  zh: 他不是一个任意妄为的怪物。
- start: 5045.066
  end: 5046.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then that would go to premise two.
  zh: 那么这就引出前提二。
- start: 5047.007
  end: 5060.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So is it impossible that if God does unpleasantly discipline us, you are saying that if that happens, it only happens in this life before death?
  zh: 所以如果神确实以不愉快的方式管教我们，你是说如果这发生，它只发生在今生死前吗？
- start: 5061.299
  end: 5062.019
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5062.179
  end: 5063.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do you know that?
  zh: 你怎么知道的？
- start: 5063.56
  end: 5071.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Because that’s what Hebrews chapter 12 is talking about: “My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor faint when you are reproved by Him.'
  zh: 因为这就是希伯来书第12章所说的：「我儿，你不可轻看主的管教，被他责备的时候，也不可灰心。
- start: 5071.042
  end: 5075.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For those whom the Lord loves, He disciplines, and He flogs every son whom He receives.”
  zh: 因为主所爱的，他必管教，又鞭打凡所收纳的儿子。
- start: 5076.063
  end: 5083.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this is being conformed to the image of Christ, and that’s God’s purpose in leaving us in this world.
  zh: 所以这是在效法基督的形象，这是神让我们留在这世界上的目的。
- start: 5083.864
  end: 5087.727
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Otherwise, He could just simply say, “Hey, you got saved—boom, you’re out of here, straight into heaven.
  zh: 否则，他可以简单地说：「嘿，你得救了——嘭，你就离开这里，直接进天堂。
- start: 5087.727
  end: 5088.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No worries about it.”
  zh: 不用担心。
- start: 5088.648
  end: 5093.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But instead, He wants us to live out the life of Christ here upon earth.
  zh: 但相反，他要我们在地上活出基督的生命。
- start: 5093.612
  end: 5096.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so that’s an assumption you’re making.
  zh: 好的，所以这是你的一个假设。
- start: 5096.574
  end: 5102.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m asking you, is it possible that God—how do you know He only does it in this life?
  zh: 我在问你，神有没有可能——你怎么知道他只在今生这样做？
- start: 5102.499
  end: 5103.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do you know that?
  zh: 你怎么知道的？
- start: 5103.943
  end: 5105.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is there a Scripture verse that says that?
  zh: 有圣经经文这样说吗？
- start: 5106.025
  end: 5126.818
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, again, I am a sola scriptura believing biblicist, and I have not seen anything in Scripture that tells me that after this life, this concept of purgation or whatever else it might be is going to continue in the presence of God.
  zh: 好吧，再说一次，我是一个相信唯独圣经的圣经主义者，我在圣经中没有看到任何东西告诉我，在今生之后，这种洁净或其他任何概念会在神的同在中继续。
- start: 5127.319
  end: 5135.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If I get to the presence of God in heaven and He permanently revokes a heavenly reward because of what I did on earth, would you call that unpleasant discipline?
  zh: 如果我到了天堂神的同在中，他因为我在地上所做的永久收回天上的赏赐，你会称那为不愉快的管教吗？
- start: 5135.46
  end: 5139.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It wasn’t a matter of—there are a number of false assumptions there.
  zh: 这不是一个——那里有许多错误的假设。
- start: 5139.321
  end: 5147.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, you are assuming that in 1 Corinthians chapter 3, the reward has somehow quote-unquote been rescinded or something along those lines.
  zh: 好的，你在假设在哥林多前书第3章中，赏赐某种程度上被收回或类似的事情。
- start: 5147.342
  end: 5148.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s not what the text is talking about.
  zh: 这不是经文所说的。
- start: 5148.903
  end: 5150.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What is lost?
  zh: 失去的是什么？
- start: 5150.363
  end: 5154.584
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is lost in 1 Corinthians 3? He shall suffer loss of the things that he built.
  zh: 在哥林多前书3章中失去的是什么？他要受亏损，就是他所建造的。
- start: 5154.864
  end: 5156.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The loss of what?
  zh: 失去什么？
- start: 5156.55
  end: 5169.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, the only context in 1 Corinthians 3 is the building upon the foundation that this individual is doing, so that was work within the Church.
  zh: 好吧，哥林多前书3章的唯一上下文是这个人在根基上所建造的，所以那是在教会中的工作。
- start: 5169.148
  end: 5174.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not about converts or anything like that at all; it’s the things that he did.
  zh: 这完全不是关于归信者或类似的事；而是关于他所做的事。
- start: 5174.71
  end: 5192.495
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So when it is demonstrated—I could name names of certain people—that everything they did, the millions they spent, the buildings they built, and everything else—when that great Day demonstrates they did that completely for themselves, then that is all burned up.
  zh: 所以当被显明的时候——我可以说出某些人的名字——他们所做的一切，他们花费的数百万，他们建造的建筑，以及其他一切——当那大日显明他们完全是为自己做这些时，那一切就都被烧毁了。
- start: 5192.495
  end: 5194.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s all gone, and he’s got nothing.
  zh: 一切都没了，他什么也没有了。
- start: 5194.236
  end: 5195.456
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s the loss.
  zh: 那就是亏损。
- start: 5195.99
  end: 5204.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Didn’t you earlier say, though, that he would receive a wage, a misthos?
  zh: 但你不是早些时候说过，他会得到工价，一个misthos吗？
- start: 5204.095
  end: 5211.839
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, that’s the person whose work does not burn up—he’s the one that receives the misthos.
  zh: 不，那是工程经得住火的人——他是那个得到工价的人。
- start: 5215.281
  end: 5216.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, I’ve got to watch my timer a little more closely.
  zh: 好的，我得更仔细地看着我的计时器。
- start: 5216.902
  end: 5217.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Stop!
  zh: 停！
- start: 5221.665
  end: 5222.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, sorry!
  zh: 好的，抱歉！
- start: 5223.526
  end: 5225.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How many times do you have to tap it?
  zh: 你需要点击多少次？
- start: 5226.092
  end: 5227.773
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, we’ve got ten more minutes, right?
  zh: 好的，我们还有十分钟，对吧？
- start: 5228.154
  end: 5229.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, good.
  zh: 好的，很好。
- start: 5230.335
  end: 5233.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are some people in the audience not saying good, but that’s okay!
  zh: 观众中有些人没说好，但没关系！
- start: 5233.277
  end: 5252.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, we go straight back to 1 Corinthians chapter 3. So in verse 14—that’s pretty much where we were—if a certain one’s work remains, which he has built, he will receive a reward.
  zh: 好的，我们直接回到哥林多前书第3章。所以在第14节——这差不多是我们刚才说到的——人在那根基上所建造的工程若存得住，他就要得赏赐。
- start: 5252.771
  end: 5254.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What is that reward?
  zh: 那赏赐是什么？
- start: 5255.305
  end: 5256.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, we don’t know exactly.
  zh: 嗯，我们不完全知道。
- start: 5256.486
  end: 5264.569
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We would imagine it would probably be some kind of glorification or honor—something related to heaven since this is the Day of the Lord.
  zh: 我们可以想象可能是某种荣耀或尊荣——因为这是主的日子，所以是与天堂有关的事物。
- start: 5264.67
  end: 5270.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, and the person who receives this reward— is this a saint or a person who goes to purgatory?
  zh: 好的，那么得到这赏赐的人——是圣徒还是要去炼狱的人？
- start: 5272.374
  end: 5286.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It says here it seems to be someone—it doesn’t talk about that person suffering any kind of loss or needing purification, so it only talks about them being rewarded in heaven.
  zh: 这里说似乎是某个人——没有提到那人受任何亏损或需要洁净，所以只是谈到他们在天上得赏赐。
- start: 5286.214
  end: 5292.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it’s possible that somebody could be purified of sin after death and still receive heavenly rewards.
  zh: 但有可能有人在死后被洁净罪，仍然接受天上的赏赐。
- start: 5292.017
  end: 5295.34
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus says to store up for yourselves treasures not on earth, but treasures in heaven.
  zh: 耶稣说要积攒财宝在天上，不要积攒在地上。
- start: 5295.34
  end: 5303.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so the only ones in verse 14 are the ones who built with gold, silver, and precious stones.
  zh: 好的，所以在第14节中唯一的是那些用金、银、宝石建造的人。
- start: 5303.605
  end: 5304.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would you agree with that?
  zh: 你同意吗？
- start: 5304.906
  end: 5306.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Can you ask again, please?
  zh: 你能再问一遍吗？
- start: 5307.127
  end: 5316.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In verse 14, the ones who receive a reward are the ones who built upon the foundation with gold, silver, and precious stones.
  zh: 在第14节中，得到赏赐的是那些在根基上用金、银、宝石建造的人。
- start: 5316.255
  end: 5319.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, the ones who acted well in this life will receive a reward.
  zh: 是的，那些在今生行得好的人会得到赏赐。
- start: 5319.435
  end: 5322.476
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s the doctrine of rewards; it’s very common in the New Testament.
  zh: 这是赏赐的教义；在新约中很常见。
- start: 5322.476
  end: 5338.759
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so are there saints—and we have completely different definitions of saints—but are there saints who built with gold, silver, and precious stones?
  zh: 好的，所以是否有圣徒——我们对圣徒的定义完全不同——但是否有圣徒用金、银、宝石建造？
- start: 5342.11
  end: 5350.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh, well, the Church doesn’t have a dogmatic teaching about whether all canonized saints immediately went to heaven or whether they underwent purification.
  zh: 哦，教会并没有教义性的教导说所有被册封的圣徒是否立即进入天堂或是否经历了洁净。
- start: 5350.156
  end: 5358.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s possible that someone who is recognized as a canonized saint—someone who is definitely in heaven—went through a process of purification before that point.
  zh: 有可能一个被认可为册封圣徒的人——一个确定在天堂的人——在那之前经历了洁净的过程。
- start: 5358.001
  end: 5359.602
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Church doesn’t have a teaching on that.
  zh: 教会对此没有教导。
- start: 5359.602
  end: 5362.044
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, it seems probable that some of them did.
  zh: 事实上，似乎有些人确实经历了。
- start: 5362.765
  end: 5373.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, saints are not individuals who have more merit than temporal punishments upon their souls and hence go directly into the presence of God?
  zh: 所以，圣徒不是那些功德超过其灵魂上暂时惩罚因而直接进入神同在的人？
- start: 5373.923
  end: 5379.606
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The word saint has different meanings when it is used in the New Testament; it refers to Christians in general.
  zh: 圣徒这个词在新约中有不同的含义；它指的是基督徒一般。
- start: 5379.606
  end: 5390.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The word saint has a technical meaning in Catholic theology to refer to someone the Church has officially taught is currently in heaven or a canonized saint.
  zh: 在公教神学中，圣徒这个词有一个专门的含义，指的是教会正式教导现在在天堂的人或被册封的圣徒。
- start: 5390.578
  end: 5392.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But saints are not perfect.
  zh: 但圣徒并不完美。
- start: 5392.298
  end: 5396.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you read the lives of the saints, especially grumpy Jerome, you see that.
  zh: 当你读圣徒的生平时，特别是脾气暴躁的耶柔米，你就能看到这点。
- start: 5396.539
  end: 5398.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, all right.
  zh: 好吧。
- start: 5399.64
  end: 5406.702
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this judgment can’t be of all.
  zh: 所以这审判不可能是对所有人的。
- start: 5406.702
  end: 5407.902
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Right, I’ll skip that part.
  zh: 好的，我跳过那部分。
- start: 5407.902
  end: 5416.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If a certain one’s work is destroyed by the fire, those are the ones who built with wood, hay, straw, right?
  zh: 如果某人的工程被火烧毁，那些是用木、草、禾秸建造的人，对吧？
- start: 5417.124
  end: 5426.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If a certain one’s work is—verse 15—I'm so sorry James, I’m just hopelessly distracted because I’m going to lose a bet of 50 bucks if you don’t ask me who the blessed man is!
  zh: 如果某人的工程是——第15节——对不起詹姆斯，我完全分心了，因为如果你不问我那蒙福的人是谁，我就要输50块钱！
- start: 5426.919
  end: 5428.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But all right, we’ll just keep going.
  zh: 但好吧，我们继续。
- start: 5429.8
  end: 5431.9
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can keep going; this is fun.
  zh: 我们可以继续；这很有趣。
- start: 5436.482
  end: 5445.225
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So, verse 15: If a certain one’s work is destroyed, he will suffer loss.'
  zh: 所以，第15节：人的工程若被烧了，他就要受亏损。
- start: 5445.225
  end: 5460.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is it your idea, then, what you’re presenting to us, that if a certain Christian leader’s converts are proven to not be true Christians, that that person will be punished?
  zh: 那么，你向我们展示的观点是，如果某个基督教领袖的归信者被证明不是真正的基督徒，那个人就会受惩罚吗？
- start: 5461.529
  end: 5462.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that what you’re saying?
  zh: 这是你的意思吗？
- start: 5462.55
  end: 5464.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think that that is a view that makes sense in the passage.
  zh: 我认为这种观点在这段经文中是有道理的。
- start: 5464.811
  end: 5468.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I wouldn’t impose it on others, but it’s one that I think makes a lot of sense.
  zh: 我不会把它强加给别人，但我认为这很有道理。
- start: 5469.133
  end: 5479.399
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As I quoted before, Hebrews 13:17 says to submit to those who have authority over you—your leaders in the Church—who are men who will have to give account.
  zh: 正如我之前引用的，希伯来书13:17说要顺服那些治理你们的——你们教会中的领袖——他们是将来要交账的人。
- start: 5479.879
  end: 5492.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But even if we say that the works—are just the things they did in this life, the motivations that they had—the point is that the works are bad in a moral sense.
  zh: 但即使我们说这些工程——只是他们在今生所做的事，他们的动机——关键是这些工程在道德意义上是坏的。
- start: 5492.767
  end: 5497.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Bad moral things are sins, and so they are receiving a punishment.
  zh: 道德上的坏事就是罪，所以他们在受惩罚。
- start: 5497.93
  end: 5516.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it is a temporary punishment, not an eternal punishment, and that is the foundation of the doctrine of purgatory in Romans 4:6. All right, I don’t think it’s fair whoever did the bet because you set it up; you can ask whatever you want.
  zh: 但这是暂时的惩罚，不是永恒的惩罚，这是罗马书4:6中炼狱教义的基础。好吧，我觉得不管是谁打赌都不公平，因为你设置了这个；你可以问任何你想问的。
- start: 5516.603
  end: 5518.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh yeah, sure!
  zh: 哦是的，当然！
- start: 5521.486
  end: 5533.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In Romans chapter 4, David speaks of the blessedness upon the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.
  zh: 在罗马书第4章，大卫讲到神不因行为算为义的人是有福的。
- start: 5535.894
  end: 5543.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Do you believe that God imputes righteousness by faith?
  zh: 你相信神因信算为义吗？
- start: 5544.121
  end: 5545.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I do believe that.
  zh: 我确实相信。
- start: 5546.283
  end: 5556.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The point that Paul is making there in Romans 3 and 4 is that anyone can come to righteousness in Christ before God, whether they are a Jew or a Gentile.
  zh: 保罗在罗马书3和4章中的要点是，无论是犹太人还是外邦人，任何人都可以在神面前因基督称义。
- start: 5556.051
  end: 5560.074
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Through baptism, all of their sins are washed away; they do no work.
  zh: 通过洗礼，他们所有的罪都被洗去；他们没有做工。
- start: 5560.074
  end: 5563.256
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s nothing like circumcision where they earn their place before God.
  zh: 没有像割礼那样的事让他们在神面前赚得地位。
- start: 5563.256
  end: 5568.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They simply come and receive Christ in baptism, and after baptism, none of their sins are held against them.
  zh: 他们只是来，在洗礼中接受基督，洗礼之后，他们的罪都不被算在他们身上。
- start: 5568.92
  end: 5574.084
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The blessed man is anyone who has received God’s forgiveness; when God forgives, his sins are not held against him.
  zh: 有福的人是任何接受了神赦免的人；当神赦免时，他的罪不被算在他身上。
- start: 5574.084
  end: 5580.728
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does the term baptism appear anywhere in Romans 3 or 4? No, but the point is the blessed man—we ask, how does God forgive us?
  zh: 洗礼这个词在罗马书3或4章中出现过吗？没有，但重点是有福的人——我们问，神如何赦免我们？
- start: 5580.728
  end: 5590.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s very clear when Paul talks about baptism in Romans 6. So we’ll only get to baptism in Romans 6, but in Romans 3 and 4, we just have to read ahead?
  zh: 当保罗在罗马书6章谈到洗礼时这就很清楚了。所以我们要等到罗马书6章才谈到洗礼，但在罗马书3和4章中，我们就必须往前读？
- start: 5590.137
  end: 5593.198
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, in Romans 3 and 4, just as if we’re talking about David.
  zh: 不，在罗马书3和4章中，就像我们在谈论大卫一样。
- start: 5593.198
  end: 5594.479
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why is David a blessed man?
  zh: 为什么大卫是个有福的人？
- start: 5594.479
  end: 5601.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s because God forgave him of the sins of murder and adultery, and so those sins would no longer be held against him.
  zh: 因为神赦免了他谋杀和奸淫的罪，所以这些罪不再被算在他身上。
- start: 5601.141
  end: 5604.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: The blessed man is anyone who has received the forgiveness of God.
  zh: 有福的人是任何接受了神赦免的人。
- start: 5604.463
  end: 5606.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You’re jumping ahead, so hold on.
  zh: 你跳得太快了，等一下。
- start: 5606.824
  end: 5620.621
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Verse 4 says, “To the one working, the 'misthos'”—which we also saw in 1 Corinthians 3—“the 'misthos' is not reckoned or imputed as a gift but what is owed.”
  zh: 第4节说：「做工的得工价，不算恩典，乃是该得的」——这个「工价」我们在哥林多前书3章也看到过。
- start: 5620.801
  end: 5631.248
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'But then, verse 5—the contrast: “To the one not working but believing in the one justifying the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.”'
  zh: 但接着，第5节——对比：「惟有不做工的，只信称罪人为义的神，他的信就算为义。」
- start: 5631.3
  end: 5643.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Do you see that Paul is contrasting an attitude of earning something from God with an attitude of faith in the promises of God?
  zh: 你看到保罗在对比从神那里赚取什么的态度和对神应许的信心的态度吗？
- start: 5643.672
  end: 5655.862
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Right, and the Catholic teaching is not that we earn anything from God by our own merits or that we earn rewards or salvation as some kind of wage that God is obliged to give us because of equal value for our works.
  zh: 对，公教的教导不是说我们靠自己的功德从神那里赚得什么，或者我们赚得赏赐或救恩，好像是神因为我们的工作的等值而必须给我们的工价。
- start: 5655.862
  end: 5664.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What you’re referencing there in Romans 4, verses 3 through 5, is related to the fact that anyone can come into forgiveness from God, whether they’re Jew or Gentile.
  zh: 你在罗马书4章3至5节所引用的，是关于任何人都可以得到神的赦免，无论是犹太人还是外邦人。
- start: 5664.706
  end: 5675.071
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: N.T. Wright says in this passage, Paul is ruling out any suggestion that Abraham might have been just the sort of person God was looking for so that there might be some merit prior to the promise.
  zh: 赖特说在这段经文中，保罗排除了任何暗示亚伯拉罕可能正是神所寻找的那种人，以至于在应许之前就有某种功德的说法。
- start: 5675.071
  end: 5682.895
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, and yet when we get to verse 5, it does say that his faith is reckoned to him as righteousness, right?
  zh: 是的，但当我们看到第5节时，确实说他的信算为他的义，对吧？
- start: 5682.895
  end: 5684.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah.
  zh: 是的。
- start: 5684.156
  end: 5693.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Catholic teaching on justification is that they’re not mutually exclusive; that God can declare we are righteous, but He also makes us righteous.
  zh: 公教关于称义的教导是这两者并不互相排斥；神可以宣告我们为义，但他也使我们成为义。
- start: 5693.42
  end: 5698.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just as God declared, “Let there be light,” He also objectively made light exist when He made the world.
  zh: 就像神说「要有光」，他也客观上使光存在于他创造世界时。
- start: 5698.603
  end: 5701.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: On what basis can He say that someone is righteous?
  zh: 他在什么基础上说某人是义的？
- start: 5701.185
  end: 5704.166
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Don’t they have to be righteous to be declared righteous?
  zh: 他们不是必须是义的才能被宣告为义吗？
- start: 5704.266
  end: 5704.967
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, no.
  zh: 嗯，不是。
- start: 5704.967
  end: 5706.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God has to make us righteous.
  zh: 神必须使我们成为义。
- start: 5706.708
  end: 5713.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He takes us as sons of Adam and makes us as sons of Christ by sacramentally infusing grace into us, right?
  zh: 他接纳我们这些亚当的儿子，通过圣事将恩典注入我们，使我们成为基督的儿子，对吧？
- start: 5713.174
  end: 5715.055
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Yeah, that’s what Catholics believe.
  zh: 是的，这是公教徒所相信的。
- start: 5715.055
  end: 5716.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Not by faith.
  zh: 不是通过信心。
- start: 5716.277
  end: 5725.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, what the Catholic Church teaches and what Lutherans would teach and what Anglicans would teach is that baptism is something that we receive by faith; it’s not any kind of work.
  zh: 不，公教会、路德宗和英国圣公会的教导都是说洗礼是我们因信心领受的；这不是任何形式的工作。
- start: 5725.204
  end: 5741.661
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, so then he uses kathaparē just as David speaks of the blessedness upon the man to whom God imputes righteousness chorīs ergon—without works.
  zh: 好的，所以他用了「正如」，就像大卫所说，神算为义不是出于行为的人是有福的。
- start: 5742.322
  end: 5743.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What are these works?
  zh: 这些行为是什么？
- start: 5744.363
  end: 5752.328
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Probably the works related to— in an immediate context, as I said, Paul is most concerned about the relation between Jews and Gentiles.
  zh: 可能是与——在直接语境中，如我所说，保罗最关心的是犹太人和外邦人之间的关系。
- start: 5752.328
  end: 5757.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s why in Romans 4:9, he makes the distinction between the circumcised and the uncircumcised.
  zh: 这就是为什么在罗马书4:9，他区分了受割礼的和未受割礼的。
- start: 5757.531
  end: 5763.227
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it’s those works that would give you entry into the Kingdom of God—he’s saying you don’t need that.
  zh: 所以是那些能让你进入神国的行为——他说你不需要那些。
- start: 5763.227
  end: 5766.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He’s saying you don’t have to be a good Jew in order to be a good Christian.
  zh: 他是说你不必成为一个好犹太人才能成为一个好基督徒。
- start: 5766.592
  end: 5776.785
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it wouldn’t be the works that come from ergon, in verse 4, the one working; the wage is not reckoned according to grace.
  zh: 所以这不会是来自第4节中的工作，做工的人；工价不是按着恩典算的。
- start: 5776.785
  end: 5778.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So there’s a distinction?
  zh: 所以有区别吗？
- start: 5778.146
  end: 5781.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: To receive justification from God, you don’t have to do any work.
  zh: 要从神那里得称义，你不需要做任何工作。
- start: 5781.428
  end: 5787.313
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You receive baptism as a grace from God; that’s why an infant, when they are saved, cannot possibly work.
  zh: 你接受洗礼是作为从神来的恩典；这就是为什么婴儿得救时不可能做工。
- start: 5787.313
  end: 5789.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They don’t do anything but wriggle around.
  zh: 他们除了扭动什么也不做。
- start: 5789.375
  end: 5798.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And if you mortal sin and reject God, you can return to God through humble faith and receive Him in the sacrament of reconciliation— That’s not a work.
  zh: 如果你犯了致死的罪并拒绝神，你可以通过谦卑的信心回到神那里，在和好圣事中接受他——这不是工作。
- start: 5798.122
  end: 5817.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, unfortunately, the answers have gone on so long that I’m not actually going to be able to fulfill your bet, but in verses 7 and 8, do you not see that Paul is defining the imputation of righteousness as the forgiveness of sins?
  zh: 好的，不幸的是，回答时间太长了，我实际上无法完成你的赌注，但在第7和8节中，你难道没看到保罗在把算为义定义为罪得赦免吗？
- start: 5817.642
  end: 5821.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, and you can talk about it—as I said, they’re not mutually exclusive.
  zh: 是的，你可以谈论它——如我所说，它们并不互相排斥。
- start: 5821.244
  end: 5833.61
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the point of the matter is that if you’re arguing that, well, God imputes righteousness to us so He does not reckon our sins or He does not impute our sins to us, it doesn’t follow from that that there are no consequences for our sins.
  zh: 但问题的关键是，如果你在论证说，好吧，神把义算给我们所以他不算我们的罪或他不把我们的罪算在我们身上，这并不意味着我们的罪就没有后果。
- start: 5833.61
  end: 5846.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Does that mean that once God reckons us as righteous, therefore, if we end up becoming an unrepentant apostate, we will end up going to heaven because God does not impute those sins to us?
  zh: 这是否意味着一旦神算我们为义，因此，如果我们最终成为不悔改的叛教者，我们最终会上天堂因为神不把那些罪算在我们身上？
- start: 5846.296
  end: 5847.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like, that doesn’t follow at all.
  zh: 这根本就不成立。
- start: 5857.696
  end: 5859.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We come to the end of the cross-examination period.
  zh: 我们到了交叉询问时期的结束。
- start: 5861.579
  end: 5863.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I think I need a round of applause.
  zh: 我想我需要一轮掌声。
- start: 5863.44
  end: 5875.73
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I know we were going to do that more; to have gone that long without clapping just felt wrong!
  zh: 我知道我们本来要多做一些；这么长时间不鼓掌感觉不对！
- start: 5875.73
  end: 5877.631
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: They worked really hard with that.
  zh: 他们在这方面真的很努力。
- start: 5878.632
  end: 5906.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'We have a lot of questions; I have no idea if this is a serious question or not, so I’m going to get it out of the way because it''s for both of you: When will the both of you submit to the one true Church of Pastor Jim''s Holy Apostolic Independent Fundamental KJV? And then someone else bribed me—or bribed Dr. White with a Chick-fil-A card.'
  zh: 我们有很多问题；我不知道这是不是一个严肃的问题，所以我要先把它说出来因为这是给你们两位的：你们两位什么时候会归顺吉姆牧师的圣使徒独立基要英王钦定版真教会？然后有人贿赂我——或者用Chick-fil-A卡贿赂怀特博士。
- start: 5906.36
  end: 5907.78
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I don’t know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 5909.163
  end: 5910.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Are you keeping that?
  zh: 你要留着那个吗？
- start: 5910.284
  end: 5910.744
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I don’t know.
  zh: 我不知道。
- start: 5910.744
  end: 5911.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No? I’ll give it to you.
  zh: 不要吗？我给你。
- start: 5911.565
  end: 5913.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Here you go.
  zh: 给你。
- start: 5913.946
  end: 5916.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I think it’s just for a cookie, though.
  zh: 不过我想那只是一张饼干券。
- start: 5916.767
  end: 5920.949
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We’re going to come to that question, but Trent is asking questions first.
  zh: 我们会谈到那个问题，但特伦特先问问题。
- start: 5922.11
  end: 5922.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What?
  zh: 什么？
- start: 5922.891
  end: 5923.951
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, didn’t I already do?
  zh: 不，我不是已经做过了吗？
- start: 5923.951
  end: 5925.212
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We already did that.
  zh: 我们已经做过了。
- start: 5925.732
  end: 5928.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No, I’m sorry; you’re answering questions that came in.
  zh: 不，抱歉；你在回答提交的问题。
- start: 5929.054
  end: 5931.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I’m sorry—I had you guys worried there!
  zh: 抱歉——我让你们担心了！
- start: 5932.336
  end: 5934.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Sorry, apologies.
  zh: 对不起，抱歉。
- start: 5935.517
  end: 5938.098
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, so 20 minutes with this.
  zh: 好的，这个用20分钟。
- start: 5938.098
  end: 5943.619
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'I’ll go through again: one minute to answer, 30 seconds to respond if the question is for you or not for you.'
  zh: 我再说一遍：一分钟回答，如果问题是给你的或不是给你的，30秒回应。
- start: 5943.759
  end: 5948.56
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, I had a lot of people ask about the thief on the cross.
  zh: 好的，很多人问到十字架上的强盗。
- start: 5949.0
  end: 5950.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I’m kind of surprised that it didn’t come up.
  zh: 我有点惊讶这个问题之前没有提出来。
- start: 5950.3
  end: 5957.882
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: So, how do you respond to Luke 23:43? “Today you will be with me in paradise,” said Jesus to the thief on the cross.
  zh: 那么，你如何回应路加福音23:43？耶稣对十字架上的强盗说：「今日你要同我在乐园里了。」
- start: 5958.246
  end: 5969.255
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The argument seems to be that purgatory does not exist because the thief would have had to undergo purification or temporary punishment for sins, and Jesus said, “Today you’ll be with me in paradise.”
  zh: 这个论点似乎是说炼狱不存在，因为强盗本应该经历洁净或暂时的罪的惩罚，而耶稣说：「今日你要同我在乐园里了。」
- start: 5969.255
  end: 5985.064
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t find that to be a good argument against purgatory because, number one, as I quoted from the Catechism, paragraph 1472, by a fervent act of charity in turning to God in sorrow for sin, all of the temporal consequences of punishment for sin can be remitted.
  zh: 我认为这不是一个反对炼狱的好论点，因为，第一，正如我引用《公教会教理》第1472段，通过热切的爱德行为，带着对罪的忧伤转向神，所有罪的暂时惩罚的后果都可以被免除。
- start: 5985.064
  end: 5986.624
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think the thief clearly did that.
  zh: 我认为那个强盗显然做到了这一点。
- start: 5986.624
  end: 5989.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He heartfeltly said to Jesus, “Remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
  zh: 他由衷地对耶稣说：「你得国降临的时候，求你记念我。」
- start: 5989.865
  end: 5998.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He rebuked the other thieves on the cross, and he suffered a torturous death, so you could say that he was purified through voluntarily accepting that punishment.
  zh: 他斥责了其他在十字架上的强盗，并遭受了痛苦的死亡，所以你可以说他通过自愿接受那惩罚而得到洁净。
- start: 5999.128
  end: 6008.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Also, as I said, the duration of purgatory is not taught by the Church, so it still could have happened in a short period of time if he needed that after death.
  zh: 而且，如我所说，教会并没有教导炼狱的持续时间，所以如果他在死后需要，这仍然可能在很短时间内发生。
- start: 6009.07
  end: 6012.652
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Also, Jesus did not go to heaven immediately that day, right?
  zh: 而且，耶稣那天并没有立即上天堂，对吧？
- start: 6012.652
  end: 6015.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because He had to descend into hell and preach to the spirits in prison.
  zh: 因为他必须降到阴间，向那里被囚的灵传道。
- start: 6015.513
  end: 6017.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He didn’t rise gloriously until Sunday.
  zh: 他直到星期日才荣耀地复活。
- start: 6017.453
  end: 6023.576
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Paradise refers to a region of the underworld, an interim where purification could take place.
  zh: 乐园指的是阴间的一个区域，一个可以进行洁净的中间地方。
- start: 6023.576
  end: 6025.536
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’d also caution that the thief on the cross...
  zh: 我还要提醒关于十字架上的强盗...
- start: 6025.536
  end: 6028.277
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, all right, one minute and 30 seconds!
  zh: 好了，好了，一分钟三十秒！
- start: 6028.277
  end: 6029.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s brutal!
  zh: 那太残酷了！
- start: 6032.259
  end: 6040.704
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Once you assume the authority of the Church to define these things, then you can utilize that to interpret all of the Bible the way you want to.
  zh: 一旦你假定教会有权定义这些事情，那么你就可以用你想要的方式来解释整本圣经。
- start: 6040.965
  end: 6045.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There is nothing in Scripture about purgatory; we have not seen anything that names it.
  zh: 圣经中没有任何关于炼狱的内容；我们没有看到任何提到它的地方。
- start: 6045.85
  end: 6059.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It has been assumed from the beginning, and the reality is, the thief on the cross simply trusted in Christ, and Christ says, “I can save you perfectly,” and that’s what all of us can trust in.
  zh: 这从一开始就被假定了，而事实是，十字架上的强盗只是信靠基督，而基督说：「我能完全拯救你」，这就是我们所有人都能信靠的。
- start: 6061.38
  end: 6076.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'But I actually want to allow you—I’m not actually sure of the question, so you might say it has nothing to do with it—but the question is this: How does the meaning of the Greek word “aio,” A-I-O, affect the conversation tonight?'
  zh: 但我实际上想让你——我实际上不确定这个问题，所以你可能会说这与它无关——但问题是：希腊词「aio」，A-I-O，的含义如何影响今晚的对话？
- start: 6077.171
  end: 6078.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Or does it?
  zh: 或者它有影响吗？
- start: 6078.192
  end: 6079.733
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Or do you get that for nothing?
  zh: 或者你什么都得不到？
- start: 6079.733
  end: 6082.115
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Are we talking about aeon?
  zh: 我们在谈论永世吗？
- start: 6082.115
  end: 6088.8
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Yes, A-I-O—well, it looks like an U, but it may be an A. It’s probably the final form—New.
  zh: 是的，A-I-O——好吧，看起来像U，但可能是A。这可能是最终形式——新的。
- start: 6088.8
  end: 6107.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, I’m assuming that someone may be referring to Matthew 12, Mark 3, and the age to come versus an eternal sin, which we didn’t end up discussing.
  zh: 好的，我假设有人可能在提到马太福音12章，马可福音3章，以及来世与永远的罪的对比，这是我们最后没有讨论到的。
- start: 6107.838
  end: 6110.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Shockingly, I wish you had betted on that.
  zh: 令人震惊的是，我真希望你在这上面打赌。
- start: 6110.28
  end: 6116.562
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Other than that, I just don’t know what to assume is the background.
  zh: 除此之外，我不知道该如何假设其背景。
- start: 6117.663
  end: 6118.344
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m sorry.
  zh: 对不起。
- start: 6118.344
  end: 6119.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: No, no.
  zh: 不，不。
- start: 6119.656
  end: 6126.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I worried that—but they did bribe me, so I want to give you—you read it; I think you have earned your wage.
  zh: 我担心那个——但他们确实贿赂了我，所以我想给你——你读吧；我想你已经赚到了你的工价。
- start: 6128.605
  end: 6131.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Let me give another question.
  zh: 让我问另一个问题。
- start: 6133.991
  end: 6143.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'This is for Dr. Wright: Do High Church Anglicans who affirm sola scriptura and believe in purgatory affirm a different gospel?'
  zh: 这是给赖特博士的：那些确认唯独圣经并相信炼狱的高教会英国圣公会信徒是在确认一个不同的福音吗？
- start: 6145.506
  end: 6155.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, a High Church Anglican would have to use—the 39 Articles, and the 39 Articles were thoroughly reformed.
  zh: 嗯，一个高教会英国圣公会信徒必须使用——三十九条信纲，而三十九条信纲是完全改革宗的。
- start: 6155.293
  end: 6160.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The problem is there has been development since then.
  zh: 问题是从那时起就有了发展。
- start: 6160.617
  end: 6168.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I have preached in many Anglican churches down in Sydney, Australia, where they are very, very conservative and believe in justification by faith and things like that.
  zh: 我在澳大利亚悉尼的许多英国圣公会教堂讲过道，那里的教会非常非常保守，相信因信称义之类的事情。
- start: 6168.803
  end: 6175.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I have a picture of me and an Anglican minister standing next to the little baptistry, and I’m going like that.
  zh: 我有一张照片，是我和一位英国圣公会牧师站在小洗礼池旁边，我就是这样的。
- start: 6176.1
  end: 6187.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But they believe in justification by faith, so as to what other Anglicans have come up with after the 39 Articles, I can’t really comment.
  zh: 但他们相信因信称义，至于其他英国圣公会信徒在三十九条信纲之后提出的内容，我真的无法评论。
- start: 6188.144
  end: 6199.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But if there’s anything that is going to cause you to believe that there is something outside of faith and faith alone as the means of justification, that becomes extremely problematic.
  zh: 但如果有任何事情会让你相信除了信心和唯独信心之外还有其他称义的途径，那就变得极其有问题了。
- start: 6200.189
  end: 6206.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But they don’t have quite the same level of dogmatic defining authority as Rome claims for itself.
  zh: 但他们没有罗马为自己宣称的那种程度的教义定义权威。
- start: 6206.731
  end: 6207.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh hush!
  zh: 噢，嘘！
- start: 6209.711
  end: 6225.635
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I would say that when you look at—and this is important—when people see Catholics and Protestants debate, Protestantism is a very wide demographic, and there are going to be Protestants who are much closer to the Catholic position on certain issues and have no problem with it, such as baptism.
  zh: 是的，我要说当你看到——这很重要——当人们看到公教徒和新教徒辩论时，新教是一个非常广泛的群体，会有一些新教徒在某些问题上更接近公教的立场，并且对此没有问题，比如洗礼。
- start: 6225.955
  end: 6230.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Regeneration is something Lutherans and Anglicans hardly agree with Catholics on.
  zh: 重生是路德宗和英国圣公会几乎不与公教徒达成一致的事情。
- start: 6230.499
  end: 6234.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: King Henry VIII was called Defender of the Faith; he wrote a defense of the seven sacraments.
  zh: 亨利八世被称为信仰捍卫者；他写了一篇为七圣事辩护的文章。
- start: 6234.522
  end: 6250.355
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if your theology has priests, has the sacrament of confession, and has penances, and you understand that there are temporary punishments for sin in this life that the Church has some authority over, then you’re just one skip, hop, and jump away from a doctrine of purgatory as Catholic.
  zh: 所以如果你的神学有祭司，有告解圣事，有补赎，并且你理解在今生有教会有某种权柄的暂时罪罚，那么你就离公教的炼狱教义只有一步之遥了。
- start: 6250.355
  end: 6251.436
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You’re not that far off.
  zh: 你离得不远了。
- start: 6252.397
  end: 6269.295
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Okay, Trent, another question: Where Jesus is on the cross, based on Hebrews 10:12-18—although this is a reference to the Gospels—what did Christ mean on the cross by saying, It is finished?'
  zh: 好的，特伦特，另一个问题：基于希伯来书10:12-18——虽然这是对福音书的引用——耶稣在十字架上说「成了」是什么意思？
- start: 6270.257
  end: 6274.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are different interpretations of what that means.
  zh: 对这个意思有不同的解释。
- start: 6274.282
  end: 6277.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It could just mean that His passion was now complete.
  zh: 这可能只是意味着他的受难现在完成了。
- start: 6277.937
  end: 6290.583
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I actually have a video on my website that mentions people who erroneously say that It is finished means paid in full; that is a misunderstanding of the Greek term and its abbreviation used in manuscripts.
  zh: 我在我的网站上实际上有一个视频，提到那些错误地说「成了」意味着完全付清的人；这是对希腊词语及其在手稿中使用的缩写的误解。
- start: 6291.383
  end: 6299.298
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What was not finished was our justification, for example, because Paul says in Romans 4:25 that Jesus was raised for our justification.
  zh: 例如，我们的称义还没有完成，因为保罗在罗马书4:25说耶稣复活是为叫我们称义。
- start: 6299.298
  end: 6303.42
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He also says in 1 Corinthians that if Christ has not been raised, your faith is in vain.
  zh: 他在哥林多前书中也说，若基督没有复活，你们的信就是徒然的。
- start: 6303.42
  end: 6306.281
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So our salvation was not finished at that moment.
  zh: 所以我们的救恩在那一刻并没有完成。
- start: 6306.281
  end: 6310.642
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it may refer to His prophetic mission; the passion is finished.
  zh: 所以这可能指的是他的先知使命；受难完成了。
- start: 6311.403
  end: 6323.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Or Scott Hahn, in his book The Lamb''s Supper, proposes an intriguing hypothesis: that what is finished by drinking the fourth cup of wine, he finished the supper that he started the night before.'
  zh: 或者斯科特·哈恩在他的书《羔羊的晚餐》中提出了一个有趣的假设：通过喝第四杯酒所完成的，是他完成了前一晚开始的晚餐。
- start: 6323.227
  end: 6329.089
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You can read that in Hahn's book The Lamb's Supper if you’re interested, and his academic book The Fourth Cup.
  zh: 如果你感兴趣，你可以在哈恩的《羔羊的晚餐》中读到这个，还有他的学术著作《第四杯》。
- start: 6330.092
  end: 6343.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t know if it strikes everybody else the same way it strikes me, but when I first started debating Roman Catholics, one of their main arguments was, “We’re not like you Protestants; we can go to the Pope, and we can find out exactly what a text means.”
  zh: 我不知道是否每个人都和我有同样的感受，但当我最初开始与罗马公教徒辩论时，他们的主要论点之一是：「我们不像你们新教徒；我们可以去请教教宗，我们可以准确地知道经文的含义。」
- start: 6343.756
  end: 6347.517
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yet when we get into these texts, what we hear is, “Well, it might be this; it might be that.
  zh: 然而当我们研究这些经文时，我们听到的是：「嗯，可能是这样；可能是那样。」
- start: 6347.517
  end: 6350.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don’t know; we might read this book over here; we might read that book over there.”
  zh: 我不知道；我们可能读这本书；我们可能读那本书。
- start: 6351.138
  end: 6358.0
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It just seems to me that there’s less confidence in the interpretive authority than there once was.
  zh: 在我看来，对解释权威的信心似乎比以前少了。
- start: 6358.0
  end: 6359.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I'm out of time!
  zh: 但我的时间到了！
- start: 6362.722
  end: 6370.828
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Dr. White, if you die and are saved but struggling with a deadly sin—pride, lust, etc.—do
  zh: 怀特博士，如果你死时已得救但正在与致命的罪——骄傲、情欲等——挣扎，
- start: 6370.828
  end: 6372.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: you just go straight to heaven?
  zh: 你会直接上天堂吗？
- start: 6373.17
  end: 6375.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: And can you show that with Scripture?
  zh: 你能用圣经证明这一点吗？
- start: 6376.412
  end: 6384.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Again, the scriptural teaching is that we have been justified by faith; we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
  zh: 再次说明，圣经的教导是我们因信称义；我们借着我们的主耶稣基督与神和好。
- start: 6384.418
  end: 6391.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We possess His righteousness, and according to Hebrews 10, we have been perfected by that once-for-all sacrifice made in our place.
  zh: 我们拥有他的义，根据希伯来书10章，我们已经因那一次永远的代赎而得以完全。
- start: 6391.92
  end: 6401.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So when you talk about struggling with a deadly sin, it almost sounds like some type of mortal sin concept being presented there, and again, I reject the idea of the mortal-venial distinction.
  zh: 所以当你谈到与致命的罪挣扎时，这听起来几乎像是在提出某种致死的罪的概念，而且我再次拒绝致死的罪与可赦的罪的区分。
- start: 6401.892
  end: 6410.597
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason that I go into the presence of the Father is because there has been a transition; the old has passed away, the new has come.
  zh: 我能进入圣父面前的原因是因为已经发生了转变；旧事已过，新事已来。
- start: 6410.637
  end: 6430.101
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is a reality now, and then at death, it becomes the final reality, so that that attachment is no longer there, that abiding sin is no longer there, and the reason that I can stand in the presence of God is because I am clothed in that righteousness.
  zh: 这现在就是现实，然后在死亡时，它成为最终的现实，所以那种依恋不再存在，那常存的罪不再存在，我能站在神面前的原因是因为我披戴着那义。
- start: 6430.161
  end: 6436.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He was made sin in my place; that's why I can then go directly into His presence.
  zh: 他替我成为罪；这就是为什么我能直接进入他的同在。
- start: 6437.163
  end: 6439.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I find the response a bit confusing.
  zh: 是的，我觉得这个回答有点令人困惑。
- start: 6439.184
  end: 6446.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It seems to make sin something we're freed from at death, simply because it sounds like our souls are separated from our bodies.
  zh: 这似乎把罪变成我们在死亡时就摆脱的东西，仅仅因为听起来好像我们的灵魂与身体分离了。
- start: 6446.634
  end: 6451.075
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As if sin is just something we have; once the soul leaves the body, it doesn't struggle with sin anymore.
  zh: 好像罪只是我们拥有的东西；一旦灵魂离开身体，就不再与罪挣扎了。
- start: 6451.075
  end: 6457.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that doesn't make sense, because damned people, when they die, will sin and continue to sin in hell, even though they don’t have their bodies.
  zh: 但这说不通，因为被定罪的人死后，即使没有身体，也会在地狱中犯罪并继续犯罪。
- start: 6457.857
  end: 6460.978
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that would show that sin is something related to our souls.
  zh: 所以这表明罪是与我们的灵魂有关的东西。
- start: 6460.978
  end: 6465.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So after we die, death is not the automatic process that sanctifies us.
  zh: 所以在我们死后，死亡并不是使我们成圣的自动过程。
- start: 6465.28
  end: 6470.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If we still need sanctification, God will do something to complete that process if necessary after death.
  zh: 如果我们仍然需要成圣，神会在死后必要时做一些事来完成这个过程。
- start: 6471.902
  end: 6483.988
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Okay, for Trent: If sin can be paid for temporally and we can be sanctified via purgatory, why was Jesus'' death necessary?'
  zh: 好的，给特伦特的问题：如果罪可以暂时偿还，我们可以通过炼狱成圣，为什么耶稣的死是必要的？
- start: 6484.188
  end: 6491.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus' death was necessary because we cannot make satisfaction for the eternal consequence of sin.
  zh: 耶稣的死是必要的，因为我们无法为罪的永恒后果做出补赎。
- start: 6491.943
  end: 6499.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The eternal consequence of sin is that we have accrued an infinite debt against God; our actions separate us from Him.
  zh: 罪的永恒后果是我们对神积累了无限的债务；我们的行为使我们与他隔绝。
- start: 6499.304
  end: 6502.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are born in original sin; we do not have sanctifying grace.
  zh: 我们生来就有原罪；我们没有使人成圣的恩典。
- start: 6502.425
  end: 6504.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are children of Adam.
  zh: 我们是亚当的儿女。
- start: 6504.605
  end: 6507.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have no right to stand before God.
  zh: 我们没有权利站在神面前。
- start: 6507.046
  end: 6516.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only way we can come to God is that Christ made satisfaction, and He made it possible so that through His merits, it’s superabundant.
  zh: 我们能来到神面前的唯一方式是基督做了补赎，他使之成为可能，通过他的功德，这是超乎丰盛的。
- start: 6516.587
  end: 6520.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Every single person, if they choose to receive Christ, has access to that.
  zh: 每一个人，如果他们选择接受基督，都能得到这个。
- start: 6520.168
  end: 6524.831
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So Christ merits and satisfies the eternal consequences of sin.
  zh: 所以基督的功德满足了罪的永恒后果。
- start: 6524.831
  end: 6530.455
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: However, as Christians know, when we still sin— even when we're saved—there are temporary consequences.
  zh: 然而，正如基督徒所知，当我们仍然犯罪时——即使我们已经得救——仍有暂时的后果。
- start: 6530.575
  end: 6540.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus took away the permanent and eternal consequences, but when we sin, we create disorder in the will, unhealthy attachments to creatures, and discord amongst the brethren.
  zh: 耶稣除去了永久和永恒的后果，但当我们犯罪时，我们在意志中造成混乱，对受造物产生不健康的依恋，并在弟兄中间造成不和。
- start: 6540.042
  end: 6545.625
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are temporary, finite consequences of sins for finite, partially turning away from God.
  zh: 这些是有限的、部分背离神的罪所造成的暂时的、有限的后果。
- start: 6546.809
  end: 6565.204
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What we didn't just hear, and what was just said, was anything about the union of the believer with Christ and the fact that what Christ's death actually accomplishes is perfect and complete on behalf of that particular individual, the elect.
  zh: 我们刚才没有听到，也没有提到的是关于信徒与基督的联合，以及基督的死为那特定的个人，就是选民，所成就的是完全和完整的这个事实。
- start: 6565.204
  end: 6575.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That union with Christ and that substitutionary atonement really is part of what we're getting at this evening and what that actually ends up resulting in.
  zh: 与基督的联合和那替代性的赎罪确实是我们今晚所讨论的部分，以及这实际上最终导致的结果。
- start: 6578.331
  end: 6585.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Okay, question for James: Could Peter forgive sins?'
  zh: 好的，给詹姆斯的问题：彼得能赦罪吗？
- start: 6585.836
  end: 6595.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Why is the fact that the disciples could forgive sins not evidence that Christians confessed their sins to a quote-unquote priest?
  zh: 为什么门徒能赦罪的事实不能证明基督徒向所谓的祭司告解？
- start: 6596.544
  end: 6602.909
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I direct people to the debate that was done a number of years ago between myself and Mitch Pacwa on the subject of the priesthood.
  zh: 我建议人们去看几年前我和米奇·帕克瓦关于祭司职分的辩论。
- start: 6602.909
  end: 6607.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think it was very, very useful and helpful to people, and Mitch is a great guy.
  zh: 我认为那对人们非常非常有用和有帮助，而且米奇是个很好的人。
- start: 6608.383
  end: 6610.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are no priests in the New Testament.
  zh: 新约中没有祭司。
- start: 6611.024
  end: 6617.248
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The apostles are told that they can proclaim the forgiveness of sins, but that’s through the proclamation of the Gospel itself.
  zh: 使徒们被告知他们可以宣告罪得赦免，但那是通过福音本身的宣讲。
- start: 6617.248
  end: 6619.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s what the whole point of it is.
  zh: 这就是它的全部要点。
- start: 6619.29
  end: 6625.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can say to anyone, “Turn in faith to the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will find Him to be a perfect and powerful Savior.”
  zh: 我们可以对任何人说：「凭信心转向主耶稣基督，你会发现他是完全而有能力的救主。」
- start: 6626.214
  end: 6627.835
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s what the forgiveness of sins is about.
  zh: 这就是赦罪的意义。
- start: 6627.835
  end: 6641.214
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s not the individual saying, “I have some sacramental mark upon my soul that gives me the power of transubstantiation and also the power to assign punishments to you and penances and everything else.”
  zh: 这不是个人在说：「我的灵魂上有某种圣事印记，给了我实体转变的能力，也给了我指定惩罚和补赎以及其他一切的权力。」
- start: 6641.214
  end: 6653.108
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is again something so far removed from New Testament Christianity that it illustrates to us just how much development is required to get to the sacramental system itself.
  zh: 这又是一件与新约基督教如此遥远的事情，它向我们说明了要达到圣事体系本身需要多少发展。
- start: 6654.275
  end: 6655.977
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I would say that's not a correct interpretation.
  zh: 我要说这不是正确的解释。
- start: 6655.977
  end: 6664.387
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In John 20:23, there is no mention of proclaiming sins, and in fact, the proclamation of the Gospel is something that had been done at the beginning of Jesus' ministry.
  zh: 在约翰福音20:23中，没有提到宣告罪，事实上，福音的宣讲是在耶稣事工开始时就已经做的事。
- start: 6664.387
  end: 6667.911
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus gives something new; He breathes on the apostles.
  zh: 耶稣给了新的东西；他向使徒们吹气。
- start: 6667.911
  end: 6676.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So in a sense, the apostles are now God-breathed, and He tells them, Whose sins you forgive are forgiven; whose sins you retain are retained.
  zh: 所以在某种意义上，使徒们现在是神所吹气的，他告诉他们，你们赦免谁的罪，谁的罪就赦免了；你们留下谁的罪，谁的罪就留下了。
- start: 6676.736
  end: 6683.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, as I cover in my book Case for Catholicism, the New Testament never tells us to confess our sins to a priest.
  zh: 事实上，正如我在《公教辩护》一书中所述，新约从未告诉我们要向祭司告解。
- start: 6683.359
  end: 6686.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God is never an explicit object to whom we are told to confess our sins.
  zh: 神从未被明确指出是我们被告知要向其认罪的对象。
- start: 6686.041
  end: 6691.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When it talks about confessing sins, that’s in James chapter 5; it says to confess your sins to one another.
  zh: 当谈到认罪时，那是在雅各书第5章；它说要彼此认罪。
- start: 6694.485
  end: 6702.842
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Question for Trent: Can you explain why the Catholic view on purgatory has changed since the mid-20th century?'
  zh: 给特伦特的问题：你能解释为什么公教会对炼狱的观点自20世纪中期以来发生了变化吗？
- start: 6702.842
  end: 6705.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: This kind of speaks to the concept of development.
  zh: 这某种程度上说明了发展的概念。
- start: 6706.645
  end: 6712.109
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I would say that doctrine develops, and this is the same for Protestants.
  zh: 是的，我要说教义会发展，这对新教徒来说也是一样。
- start: 6712.109
  end: 6723.983
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you compare the early magisterial reformers to later reformers, you see that different understandings of theologies are sharpened and focused, and some views fall into dissolution over time.
  zh: 如果你比较早期的权威改教家和后期的改教家，你会看到不同的神学理解被锐化和聚焦，一些观点随时间消解。
- start: 6724.184
  end: 6733.168
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The understanding of purgatory begins with the very basic concept of purification or punishment after death based on what someone has done in this life.
  zh: 对炼狱的理解始于一个非常基本的概念，就是基于人在今生所做的事而在死后进行洁净或惩罚。
- start: 6733.529
  end: 6738.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are two different models of purgatory, and we see them in the magisterial sources.
  zh: 炼狱有两种不同的模式，我们在训导权的来源中看到它们。
- start: 6738.839
  end: 6741.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, it’s covered very well in Jerry Walls’ book.
  zh: 事实上，杰里·沃尔斯的书对此讲述得很好。
- start: 6741.741
  end: 6747.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You see a sanctification model, purifying after death, or a satisfaction model, which remits punishments for sins.
  zh: 你看到一个成圣模式，死后洁净，或一个补赎模式，赦免罪的惩罚。
- start: 6747.485
  end: 6765.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The development in Catholic theology seems to be an idea that the satisfaction or the suffering of the temporary consequences of sin—the purification is the punishment—instead of those two being separate ideas, that they may just be two different ways of describing the same thing.
  zh: 公教神学的发展似乎是一种观念，即补赎或承受罪的暂时后果——洁净就是惩罚——这两者不是分开的观念，而可能只是描述同一件事的两种不同方式。
- start: 6767.944
  end: 6771.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Anything to be explained by using the term development?
  zh: 有什么需要用发展这个词来解释的吗？
- start: 6771.287
  end: 6778.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If there's a problem, slap some Newman on it, is how it has been said, and I think it’s very properly said.
  zh: 如果有问题，就贴上一些纽曼的观点，这是人们常说的，我认为这说得很对。
- start: 6778.813
  end: 6786.819
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’ve already recommended, and if you have a real interest, I really suggest to you this book by F.X. Schoup on purgatory.
  zh: 我已经推荐过了，如果你真的感兴趣，我真的建议你读F.X.舒普关于炼狱的这本书。
- start: 6786.819
  end: 6797.627
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It gives you a real deep insight into what was understood for hundreds of years, and I really do believe there has been a move away from that in the modern period.
  zh: 它让你真正深入了解几百年来人们的理解，我真的相信在现代已经偏离了这种理解。
- start: 6800.66
  end: 6805.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Question for James: Can you sin after being saved?'
  zh: 给詹姆斯的问题：得救后还能犯罪吗？
- start: 6805.581
  end: 6809.462
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: If so, how can sin enter heaven?
  zh: 如果能，罪怎么能进入天堂？
- start: 6810.883
  end: 6811.503
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, of course!
  zh: 嗯，当然！
- start: 6811.503
  end: 6812.903
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that’s the whole point.
  zh: 这就是重点。
- start: 6814.224
  end: 6819.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, 1 John tells us, by the way, that if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just.
  zh: 你知道，约翰一书告诉我们，如果我们认自己的罪，他是信实的，是公义的。
- start: 6819.485
  end: 6821.025
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who would you confess that to?
  zh: 你要向谁认罪？
- start: 6821.025
  end: 6822.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That would be to God.
  zh: 那就是向神。
- start: 6822.386
  end: 6828.127
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So yeah, there’s a direct place where we are confessing our sins, and there is no concept of a priest there.
  zh: 所以是的，这里有我们直接认罪的地方，这里没有祭司的概念。
- start: 6828.5
  end: 6832.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But yes, we experience abiding sin in our life.
  zh: 但是的，我们在生活中经历常存的罪。
- start: 6832.241
  end: 6835.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How then can we continue to have the presence of the Spirit within us?
  zh: 那么我们怎么能继续有圣灵在我们里面同在？
- start: 6835.322
  end: 6838.063
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How then can we continue to have fellowship with God?
  zh: 那么我们怎么能继续与神有团契？
- start: 6838.063
  end: 6846.005
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, it’s because He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him.
  zh: 这是因为神使那无罪的替我们成为罪，好叫我们在他里面成为神的义。
- start: 6846.185
  end: 6854.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is that fundamental imputation of the righteousness of God to us that makes us right before God, and that sin has been covered over.
  zh: 正是神的义归算给我们这个根本点使我们在神面前称义，那罪已经被遮盖了。
- start: 6854.087
  end: 6861.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s why the blessed man is not the blessed man one day, oops— not the blessed man the next, oops—back to not the blessed man.
  zh: 这就是为什么有福的人不是今天是有福的人，哎呀——第二天不是有福的人，哎呀——又回到不是有福的人。
- start: 6862.069
  end: 6872.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No! A Christian is the blessed man because Christianity is focused upon what Christ does to the glory of the triune God.
  zh: 不！基督徒是有福的人，因为基督教专注于基督为三位一体神的荣耀所做的事。
- start: 6872.152
  end: 6879.178
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is the most important aspect that we need to understand, and it’s Christ’s righteousness that gives us our peace with God.
  zh: 这是我们需要理解的最重要方面，是基督的义给我们带来与神的和平。
- start: 6879.178
  end: 6883.54
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So it’s not sin entering into heaven; that sin was already dealt with in Christ.
  zh: 所以不是罪进入天堂；那罪已经在基督里被处理了。
- start: 6884.401
  end: 6888.803
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'll just say that I address 1 John 1:9 in my book and in several articles.
  zh: 我只想说我在我的书和几篇文章中讨论了约翰一书1:9。
- start: 6888.803
  end: 6895.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In verses 8 through 10, the context is related to publicly confessing things to other people, like our faith.
  zh: 在第8至10节中，上下文是关于向其他人公开承认事情，比如我们的信仰。
- start: 6895.506
  end: 6898.348
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you read early Church historians, it’s very clear.
  zh: 当你读早期教会历史学家的著作时，这一点非常清楚。
- start: 6898.348
  end: 6907.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Look at the Didache; look at Irenaeus, for example, who condemns women who go to church and gather and do not publicly confess sins.
  zh: 看看《十二使徒遗训》；看看爱任纽，例如，他谴责那些去教会聚会却不公开认罪的妇女。
- start: 6907.53
  end: 6909.811
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The sacrament of confession was public.
  zh: 告解圣事是公开的。
- start: 6910.092
  end: 6913.333
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s well established among Christian and Church historians.
  zh: 这在基督教和教会历史学家中是公认的。
- start: 6913.994
  end: 6924.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So in seeing that the early Church was very concerned about the effects of sin on someone, even if you are saved, I think it’s your turn, Trent.
  zh: 所以在看到早期教会非常关注罪对一个人的影响，即使你已得救，我想该轮到特伦特了。
- start: 6924.922
  end: 6927.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I’m getting lost—sorry!
  zh: 我有点迷糊了——抱歉！
- start: 6927.644
  end: 6930.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I think probably one more question for each of you is all we have time for.
  zh: 我想我们可能只有时间给你们每人再问一个问题。
- start: 6931.427
  end: 6932.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: What are your thoughts?
  zh: 你们有什么想法？
- start: 6932.788
  end: 6946.433
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'This was mentioned in the remarks, but I think it’s important to sort of focus here on this: What are your thoughts on Paul saying to be apart or away from the body is to be at home with the Lord?'
  zh: 这在评论中提到过，但我认为重点关注这一点很重要：你们对保罗说离开身体就与主同住这句话有什么看法？
- start: 6946.433
  end: 6948.733
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: How does that allow for purgatory?
  zh: 这怎么能容许炼狱的存在？
- start: 6948.853
  end: 6951.534
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yeah, I already addressed that in speaking with James.
  zh: 是的，我在和詹姆斯谈话时已经讨论过这个问题了。
- start: 6951.534
  end: 6956.494
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is a very common misquotation of Scripture.
  zh: 这是一个非常常见的对圣经的错误引用。
- start: 6957.174
  end: 6963.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So people say, “Oh, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.”
  zh: 所以人们说：「哦，离开身体就与主同在。」
- start: 6963.136
  end: 6971.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Rather, Paul is expressing a hope: “We are of good courage; we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.”'
  zh: 相反，保罗是在表达一种希望：「我们坦然无惧，是更愿意离开身体与主同住。」
- start: 6971.778
  end: 6974.844
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he understands there’s work we have to do in this life.
  zh: 但他明白我们在今生还有工作要做。
- start: 6974.844
  end: 6984.228
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it’s very clear that Paul is not teaching that once we die, we are just immediately in the presence of the Lord and embracing the beatific vision.
  zh: 但很明显，保罗并不是在教导说一旦我们死了，我们就立即在主的同在中并享受天福直观。
- start: 6984.228
  end: 6993.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because he says in verse 10, “We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ so that each one may receive good or evil according to what he has done in the body.”
  zh: 因为他在第10节说：「我们众人必要在基督台前显露出来，叫各人按着本身所行的，或善或恶受报。」
- start: 6993.031
  end: 6999.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so to receive evil because we did bad things in the body—that sounds like a post-mortem punishment for the purpose of our purification.
  zh: 所以因为我们在身体里做了坏事而受恶报——这听起来像是为了我们洁净的死后惩罚。
- start: 7001.89
  end: 7011.194
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is a promise that we will be in the presence of Christ, and of course that judgment before the Bema seat of Christ takes place in heaven in the presence of Christ.
  zh: 这是我们将在基督同在中的应许，当然在基督台前的审判是在天上基督同在中进行的。
- start: 7011.194
  end: 7019.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are redeemed people, and this is not some type of idea of punishment, satis-passio, anything like that.
  zh: 这些是得赎的人，这不是某种惩罚、补赎之苦或类似的观念。
- start: 7019.217
  end: 7030.821
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reality is Paul recognized the vital importance of knowing that in the body—and if I’m not in the body, I will be in the presence of my Lord.
  zh: 事实是保罗认识到知道在身内——如果我不在身内，我就会在我主的同在中——的重要性。
- start: 7032.602
  end: 7046.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: 'Okay, and then again, I think the last question then for James: What purification is Paul referring to if not purgatory in 1 Corinthians chapter 3? He’s not referring to purification.'
  zh: 好的，然后再次，我想最后给詹姆斯的问题是：如果不是炼狱，保罗在哥林多前书第3章指的是什么洁净？他不是在指洁净。
- start: 7047.235
  end: 7051.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The text is really, really very clear, and we tried to walk through it.
  zh: 这段经文真的非常清楚，我们试图仔细解读它。
- start: 7053.181
  end: 7068.399
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What he’s talking about—the only term that is being translated as purification is zemiao, and I didn’t know that the Protestants who worked on BDAG had been given the charism of infallibility in interpretation.
  zh: 他所说的——唯一被翻译为洁净的词是zemiao，我不知道在BDAG上工作的新教徒在解释上被赋予了无误的神恩。
- start: 7068.9
  end: 7074.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the reality is Paul’s use of that term is to suffer loss.
  zh: 但事实是保罗使用这个词是指遭受损失。
- start: 7074.407
  end: 7087.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s how he always uses it when he uses the term, and it’s simply a recognition that the Day of Judgment will reveal clearly what is gold, silver, and precious stones, and what is wood, hay, and straw.
  zh: 这就是他每次使用这个词时的用法，这只是认识到审判之日将清楚地显明什么是金、银、宝石，什么是木、草、禾秸。
- start: 7087.511
  end: 7094.272
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It has nothing to do with converts or anything like that, and so it’s not a matter of purification; it’s not a matter of punishment.
  zh: 这与皈依者或类似的事情无关，所以这不是洁净的问题；也不是惩罚的问题。
- start: 7094.272
  end: 7102.354
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s a matter of the revelation and demonstrating why people did what they did and who did it for the glory of Christ.
  zh: 这是关于启示和证明人们为什么做他们所做的事，以及谁是为基督的荣耀而做的问题。
- start: 7103.012
  end: 7110.156
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I cited 1 Corinthians 3 not as an example of purification, but as an example of unpleasant discipline because James says, you know, you turn it into just purification.
  zh: 我引用哥林多前书第3章不是作为洁净的例子，而是作为不愉快的管教的例子，因为詹姆斯说，你知道，你把它变成了仅仅是洁净。
- start: 7110.156
  end: 7112.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're getting away from the traditional view of punishment.
  zh: 你正在偏离惩罚的传统观点。
- start: 7112.777
  end: 7116.699
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then when I cite 1 Corinthians 3, he says, oh, it’s not really punishment.
  zh: 但当我引用哥林多前书第3章时，他说，哦，这实际上不是惩罚。
- start: 7116.699
  end: 7129.425
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, if you look, for example, here in Le Goff—the book that James recommends—he says that the first person who did the first real exegesis of 1 Corinthians 3:15 in the history of the Church was Ambrosiaster, and he considered it very clear.
  zh: 好的，如果你看看勒戈夫的书——詹姆斯推荐的那本——他说教会历史上第一个对哥林多前书3:15做真正解经的人是安布罗西亚斯特，他认为这很清楚。
- start: 7129.425
  end: 7137.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Ambrosiaster says in the fourth century that to suffer loss is to endure reproof: For what person, when subjected to punishment, does not lose something thereby?'
  zh: 安布罗西亚斯特在四世纪时说，遭受损失就是承受责备：因为有谁受惩罚时不会因此失去什么呢？
- start: 7139.991
  end: 7142.392
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Okay, we are almost done.
  zh: 好的，我们快要结束了。
- start: 7142.392
  end: 7144.854
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We have five minutes for each speaker again.
  zh: 我们每位讲者还有五分钟时间。
- start: 7144.854
  end: 7147.795
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Trent will go first, James will go second.
  zh: 特伦特先说，詹姆斯后说。
- start: 7148.155
  end: 7150.176
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: These are their closing remarks for the evening.
  zh: 这是他们今晚的结束语。
- start: 7153.398
  end: 7154.259
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’re good?
  zh: 我们准备好了吗？
- start: 7154.339
  end: 7155.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, okay.
  zh: 好的，好的。
- start: 7155.974
  end: 7158.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, let’s draw everything together.
  zh: 好，让我们把一切总结起来。
- start: 7158.035
  end: 7162.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I presented two arguments for the doctrine of purgatory.
  zh: 所以我为炼狱教义提出了两个论据。
- start: 7163.278
  end: 7166.68
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The first one showed that we are sanctified in this life.
  zh: 第一个显示我们在今生被成圣。
- start: 7167.201
  end: 7172.484
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For some, the process of sanctification continues after death but is completed before we enter heaven.
  zh: 对某些人来说，成圣的过程在死后继续，但在我们进入天堂之前完成。
- start: 7172.484
  end: 7185.482
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if we are still subject to sin, desire sin, if sin has any influence on us or dwells within us in any way, we cannot be in heaven because nothing unclean can enter heaven, as the book of Revelation says.
  zh: 所以如果我们仍然受罪的辖制，渴望罪，如果罪以任何方式影响我们或住在我们里面，我们就不能进入天堂，因为正如启示录所说，凡不洁净的都不能进入天堂。
- start: 7185.482
  end: 7187.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I think we made a lot of progress tonight.
  zh: 所以我认为我们今晚取得了很大进展。
- start: 7188.445
  end: 7196.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James seemed actually very open to what has been called the sanctification model of purgatory that is also embraced by other Protestants.
  zh: 詹姆斯似乎实际上对其他新教徒也接受的所谓炼狱的成圣模式很开放。
- start: 7196.274
  end: 7203.359
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But second, I didn’t just rely on that model; I also spoke about unpleasant discipline after death—another word for punishment.
  zh: 但第二，我不仅仅依赖那个模式；我还谈到了死后不愉快的管教——惩罚的另一种说法。
- start: 7203.359
  end: 7210.764
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Many times, Protestants will hear Catholics use terms and import meanings into them that aren’t there.
  zh: 很多时候，新教徒会听到公教徒使用一些词语，并给它们赋予本不存在的含义。
- start: 7211.185
  end: 7226.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that punishment is seen as satisfying some kind of legal standard to earn our way out of purgatory when, rather, it’s about accepting the Father’s discipline to reorder our wills and for Him to set right the order of justice to respond to when we partially turn away from Him.
  zh: 所以那惩罚被视为满足某种法律标准以赚取我们离开炼狱的方式，而实际上，这是关于接受天父的管教来重整我们的意志，让他纠正公义的秩序，以回应我们部分背离他的时候。
- start: 7226.807
  end: 7231.011
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He gently guides us back, just as our earthly fathers have done with us.
  zh: 他温柔地引导我们回来，就像我们地上的父亲对我们所做的那样。
- start: 7231.472
  end: 7248.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James just tried to make distinctions; he tried to say—and I gave an example of that happening at the judgment at the Day in 1 Corinthians 3, and James said, “Well, you know, it’s not really punishment; that’s not what’s happening here; it’s discipline.”
  zh: 詹姆斯只是试图做出区分；他试图说——我举了哥林多前书第3章审判之日的例子，詹姆斯说：「嗯，你知道，这不是真正的惩罚；这不是这里发生的事；这是管教。」
- start: 7248.296
  end: 7249.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Making all these distinctions.
  zh: 做出所有这些区分。
- start: 7249.777
  end: 7252.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I would ask you just to read the verses for yourself.
  zh: 我建议你自己去读这些经文。
- start: 7252.099
  end: 7260.507
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Read Hebrews 12:3 through 12. Read the whole Bible!
  zh: 读希伯来书12:3到12。读整本圣经！
- start: 7260.507
  end: 7262.508
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Read Hebrews 12. We’ll start there.
  zh: 读希伯来书第12章。我们从那里开始。
- start: 7262.748
  end: 7266.091
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There’s a great podcast to go to, Bible in a Year, if you need to do that, by the way.
  zh: 顺便说一下，如果你需要的话，有一个很好的播客叫《一年读完圣经》。
- start: 7268.958
  end: 7279.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I showed in both those arguments—both the argument for sanctification as well as the argument from unpleasant discipline—that if you don’t like the word punishment, it still follows with everything.
  zh: 我在这两个论据中都表明——无论是成圣的论据还是不愉快管教的论据——即使你不喜欢惩罚这个词，它仍然与一切相符。
- start: 7279.784
  end: 7288.289
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I also quoted from the official magisterial teaching of the Catholic Church that is in harmony with what has been taught before.
  zh: 我还引用了公教会的官方训导，这与之前所教导的是和谐一致的。
- start: 7288.689
  end: 7294.933
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think it’s important to understand that teachings on eschatology—the end of life—develop.
  zh: 我认为理解末世论——生命终结——的教导会发展是很重要的。
- start: 7294.933
  end: 7298.874
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Many Protestant views of hell were much more graphic 300 years ago.
  zh: 300年前许多新教对地狱的看法要生动得多。
- start: 7298.874
  end: 7311.238
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I remember when William Lane Craig did a debate on hell with an atheist; the atheist quoted earlier Protestants and even Catholics who talked about children burning in ovens and things like that, whereas now the discussion of hell is much more sanitized.
  zh: 我记得威廉·莱恩·克雷格与一位无神论者辩论地狱时；那位无神论者引用了早期新教徒甚至公教徒的话，他们谈到儿童在烤炉中燃烧之类的事情，而现在关于地狱的讨论要温和得多。
- start: 7311.238
  end: 7314.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It’s still bad, but it’s eternal separation from God.
  zh: 这仍然很糟糕，但这是与神永远的分离。
- start: 7314.099
  end: 7315.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we see developments in those things.
  zh: 所以我们看到这些事情的发展。
- start: 7316.169
  end: 7318.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So why does the doctrine of purgatory matter?
  zh: 那么为什么炼狱的教义很重要？
- start: 7318.592
  end: 7323.017
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It matters because we’ve seen there is a distinction between mortal and venial sin.
  zh: 它很重要是因为我们已经看到致死的罪和小罪之间有区别。
- start: 7323.017
  end: 7325.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I think that’s obvious: sin impacts us.'
  zh: 我认为这很明显：罪影响着我们。
- start: 7325.36
  end: 7331.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We know deep down, even if we are saved, that when we sin, something has gone wrong in our relationship with God.
  zh: 我们内心深处知道，即使我们已经得救，当我们犯罪时，我们与神的关系出了问题。
- start: 7331.267
  end: 7338.362
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We feel sorrow for our sins, and that’s a good thing; God wants us to feel that way because He wants us to return to Him.
  zh: 我们为我们的罪感到悲伤，这是好事；神要我们有这种感觉，因为他要我们回到他那里。
- start: 7338.362
  end: 7347.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There is a natural order of justice through divine grace that He draws us to Himself, and we can’t pretend like that isn’t there or sugarcoat it with other language.
  zh: 通过神的恩典，有一个自然的公义秩序，他吸引我们归向他自己，我们不能假装这不存在或用其他语言来粉饰它。
- start: 7347.245
  end: 7351.486
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'll leave you with the words of C.S. Lewis, who I think put that very well.
  zh: 我用路易斯的话作为结束，我认为他说得很好。
- start: 7351.486
  end: 7354.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He said, “Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they?
  zh: 他说：「我们的灵魂要求炼狱，不是吗？
- start: 7354.463
  end: 7360.504
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells, your rags drop with mud and slime.
  zh: 如果神对我们说：『这是真的，我的孩子，你的气息有臭味，你的破衣服沾满了泥污。
- start: 7360.504
  end: 7365.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We’re charitable here, and no one will upbraid you with these things nor draw away from you.
  zh: 我们在这里是仁慈的，没有人会因这些事责备你或远离你。
- start: 7365.345
  end: 7369.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply with, ‘Submission, sir?
  zh: 进入喜乐吧』？我们难道不应该回答说：『顺服，主啊？
- start: 7369.446
  end: 7372.446
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’”
  zh: 如果没有异议的话，我宁愿先被洁净。」」
- start: 7372.526
  end: 7374.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It may hurt, you know.
  zh: 你知道，这可能会痛。
- start: 7374.307
  end: 7379.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even so, sir, I assume that the process of purification will normally involve suffering.
  zh: 即便如此，主啊，我想这个洁净的过程通常会涉及苦难。
- start: 7379.001
  end: 7385.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Partly from tradition, partly because most real good that has been done in this life has involved it.
  zh: 部分来自传统，部分因为今生所行的大多数真正的善都涉及苦难。
- start: 7385.346
  end: 7390.751
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So through all of this, we can be confident that I’ve shown this from Scripture; I’ve shown this as the witness of the Church.
  zh: 所以通过这一切，我们可以确信我已经从圣经中证明了这一点；我已经展示了这是教会的见证。
- start: 7390.751
  end: 7397.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: James never cited anyone in the post-apostolic witness or church history that held any view related to this.
  zh: 詹姆斯从未引用过使徒后期的见证或教会历史中任何持有相关观点的人。
- start: 7397.617
  end: 7403.682
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is a novelty in Christian history, not something grounded in what the Church has passed on for centuries.
  zh: 这在基督教历史中是新奇的，不是建立在教会几个世纪以来所传承的东西上。
- start: 7403.7
  end: 7415.626
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this gives us hope and confidence that we can pursue holiness in this life, that God loves us; He is our heavenly Father, and He will bring us to perfection and full sanctification, whether in this life or the next.
  zh: 这给了我们希望和信心，我们能在今生追求圣洁，神爱我们；他是我们的天父，他会带领我们达到完全和完全的成圣，无论是在今生还是来世。
- start: 7416.547
  end: 7430.474
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can be confident in the transforming love of Jesus Christ, who doesn’t just legally erase our sins with a fiction; He extinguishes every trace of them from our souls so we can be, as St. Paul says, new creations in Him.
  zh: 我们可以对耶稣基督改变人的爱有信心，他不只是用虚构在法律上抹去我们的罪；他从我们的灵魂中消除它们的每一个痕迹，这样我们就能像保罗说的那样，在他里面成为新造的人。
- start: 7430.824
  end: 7439.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The doctrine of purgatory is good news for that—to seek out this sanctification and to be able to fully conform ourselves to Jesus Christ.
  zh: 炼狱的教义对此是好消息——寻求这种成圣并能够完全使我们自己符合耶稣基督的样式。
- start: 7439.37
  end: 7440.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you very much.
  zh: 非常感谢。
- start: 7446.795
  end: 7466.32
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because we have short memories, I want you to remember what Trent just said because it summarizes the sad tragedy of the distinction between biblical gospel preaching and what is found in Roman Catholicism.
  zh: 因为我们记性短，我要你们记住特伦特刚才说的话，因为它总结了圣经福音传讲与罗马公教会所持观点之间区别的悲剧。
- start: 7466.32
  end: 7472.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He just called the imputation of the righteousness of Christ a legal fiction.
  zh: 他刚才把基督之义的归算称为法律虚构。
- start: 7474.105
  end: 7480.509
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That’s what the Reformation was about, and that’s what this debate should be about.
  zh: 这就是宗教改革的内容，这也是这场辩论应该讨论的内容。
- start: 7481.109
  end: 7487.053
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you want to know more about the historical stuff, he said this is what it’s always been.
  zh: 如果你想了解更多历史内容，他说这就是一直以来的情况。
- start: 7487.236
  end: 7489.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Roman Catholic scholarship knows better.
  zh: 罗马公教会的学术界知道得更清楚。
- start: 7489.699
  end: 7492.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Read Brian Daly; read Le Goff.
  zh: 读布莱恩·戴利；读勒戈夫。
- start: 7492.782
  end: 7500.607
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They will give you a good indication and a good summary of the development over time of these concepts.
  zh: 他们会给你一个好的指示和这些概念随时间发展的好的总结。
- start: 7500.607
  end: 7504.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This was not something that Ignatius taught.
  zh: 这不是依纳爵教导的东西。
- start: 7504.41
  end: 7507.372
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, you have a little bit here, you have a little bit there.
  zh: 不，你这里有一点，那里有一点。
- start: 7507.372
  end: 7518.822
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was really dependent upon Clement of Alexandria and Origen, and what was inputting into their theology was not a pure biblical stream by any stretch of the imagination.
  zh: 这实际上依赖于亚历山大的克莱门特和俄利根，而输入到他们神学中的绝不是纯粹的圣经源流。
- start: 7518.822
  end: 7520.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Look it up for yourself.
  zh: 自己去查证。
- start: 7520.283
  end: 7523.466
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Read Schoup; these are Roman Catholic sources, by the way.
  zh: 读舒普的著作；顺便说一下，这些都是罗马公教会的资料。
- start: 7523.466
  end: 7536.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Read these books for yourself to find out what purgatory used to mean—all the thousands of visions of what purgatory is about, and the temporality and the Sabbatine privilege.
  zh: 自己读这些书，去发现炼狱过去的含义——所有关于炼狱的数千种异象，以及暂时性和安息日特权。
- start: 7538.323
  end: 7549.846
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I wonder if there’s someone in this room wearing the brown scapular right now because the promise is that when you die, Mary will come down into purgatory and release you on the Saturday after your death.
  zh: 我想知道这个房间里现在是否有人戴着褐色圣衣，因为承诺是当你死后，马利亚会下到炼狱，在你死后的星期六释放你。
- start: 7550.006
  end: 7553.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If there’s no time involved with that, how do you get to Saturday?
  zh: 如果这与时间无关，你怎么能到星期六？
- start: 7553.346
  end: 7556.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Unless everybody dies on a Saturday, I don’t even know how that works.
  zh: 除非每个人都在星期六死，我甚至不知道这是怎么运作的。
- start: 7556.647
  end: 7564.791
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are the historical realities, but I didn’t get into all the historical realities in a brief debate because this is about what was just said.
  zh: 这些是历史现实，但我在简短的辩论中没有涉及所有的历史现实，因为这是关于刚才所说的。
- start: 7564.791
  end: 7572.655
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A legal fiction is the assertion of the New Testament; you won’t find the term purgatory in here.
  zh: 法律虚构是新约的主张；你在这里找不到炼狱这个词。
- start: 7572.655
  end: 7576.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You did not find anything about temporal punishments in here.
  zh: 你在这里找不到任何关于暂时惩罚的内容。
- start: 7576.957
  end: 7585.081
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Every time Trent went there, he’s quoting from the Universal Catechism; he’s quoting from a pope that lived 2,000 years after the birth of Christ.
  zh: 每次特伦特说到这里，他都在引用《公教会教理》；他在引用一位生活在基督诞生2000年后的教宗。
- start: 7586.036
  end: 7588.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This truly is the issue.
  zh: 这确实是问题所在。
- start: 7589.361
  end: 7591.604
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this is why we have the division.
  zh: 这就是为什么我们有分歧。
- start: 7591.645
  end: 7599.857
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I was attacked during the day today because you weren’t really clear in what you were saying about Roman Catholicism in the debate last night.
  zh: 我今天白天受到攻击，因为你在昨晚的辩论中对罗马公教会的说法并不真正清楚。
- start: 7599.918
  end: 7614.317
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I made a distinction between the oneness Pentecostals, who have a Christological error and reject the doctrine of the Trinity, and my objections to Roman Catholicism because we don’t disagree on the doctrine of the Trinity.
  zh: 我区分了一体五旬节派——他们在基督论上有错误并拒绝三位一体教义——和我对罗马公教会的反对，因为我们在三位一体的教义上并不存在分歧。
- start: 7614.317
  end: 7626.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What we disagree on is what is listed by Paul in Galatians as something that fundamentally divides, and that is the gospel.
  zh: 我们的分歧在于保罗在加拉太书中列出的根本性分歧，那就是福音。
- start: 7627.923
  end: 7657.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If, in fact, you can identify as a legal fiction the assertion of the imputation of righteousness, which we just got done looking at in the original text of Romans 4, just as David speaks of the blessedness upon the man—to whom God legizomai—imputes righteousness dikaiosunē apart from works.
  zh: 事实上，如果你能把义的归算的主张认定为法律虚构，而我们刚刚在罗马书第4章的原文中看到，正如大卫所说的那人的福——神归算（legizomai）——在行为之外归算义（dikaiosunē）。
- start: 7657.87
  end: 7661.613
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Oh, it’s a legal fiction that’s done by baptism, but you don’t get that.
  zh: 哦，这是通过洗礼完成的法律虚构，但你不明白这点。
- start: 7661.613
  end: 7667.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you get to Romans 6—that's reading the text upside down and backwards.
  zh: 所以你到了罗马书第6章——那是在颠倒和倒着读经文。
- start: 7667.657
  end: 7674.522
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reality is, let’s be honest—after last night, all the rest of this discussion of history and everything else is irrelevant.
  zh: 现实是，让我们诚实地说——在昨晚之后，所有其他关于历史和其他一切的讨论都无关紧要。
- start: 7675.523
  end: 7680.587
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Trent believes in purgatory because Rome tells him to; that’s his ultimate authority.
  zh: 特伦特相信炼狱是因为罗马告诉他要相信；那是他的最终权威。
- start: 7680.991
  end: 7686.414
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Therefore, Church history will be interpreted in light of that, and the Bible will be interpreted in light of that.
  zh: 因此，教会历史将在那个光照下被解释，圣经也将在那个光照下被解释。
- start: 7686.414
  end: 7692.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You can grab hold of anything and bring it into that ultimate authoritative claim.
  zh: 你可以抓住任何东西并把它带入那个最终权威的主张中。
- start: 7693.839
  end: 7698.201
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have not seen anything; we went through his arguments in cross-examination.
  zh: 我们什么都没看到；我们在交叉询问中审视了他的论据。
- start: 7698.862
  end: 7705.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In my answers, I demonstrated why his arguments do not hold, but he’s not interacting with any of that.
  zh: 在我的回答中，我展示了为什么他的论据站不住脚，但他没有对这些作出任何回应。
- start: 7706.446
  end: 7708.047
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who is the blessed man?
  zh: 谁是有福的人？
- start: 7709.051
  end: 7712.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is the blessed man the one who is only right after being baptized?
  zh: 有福的人是只有在受洗后才称义的人吗？
- start: 7713.553
  end: 7718.935
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The blessed man right after he walks out of the confessional?
  zh: 有福的人是刚从告解室走出来的人吗？
- start: 7719.455
  end: 7724.237
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Blessed man, not blessed man, blessed man, not blessed man, justified, not justified.
  zh: 有福的人，不是有福的人，有福的人，不是有福的人，称义的，不称义的。
- start: 7724.237
  end: 7743.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that really what Paul was arguing in Romans chapter 4? As he said, go read Hebrews 12. Yeah, but also go read Romans 3, 4, and 5 because that’s where you have the biblical teaching on how we can have peace with God, and it denies the concept of purgatory.
  zh: 这真的是保罗在罗马书第4章所辩论的吗？正如他说的，去读希伯来书第12章。是的，但也要去读罗马书第3、4、5章，因为那里有关于我们如何与神和好的圣经教导，而且否定了炼狱的概念。
- start: 7743.772
  end: 7757.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thank you.
  zh: 谢谢。
- start: 7757.645
  end: 7764.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: We really are the beneficiaries of a lifetime of learning, and it’s not a small thing that we’ve been able to listen to this tonight.
  zh: 我们确实是终身学习的受益者，今晚能够听到这些并不是一件小事。
- start: 7764.438
  end: 7766.98
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Debates are really a starting point for further exploration.
  zh: 辩论真的是进一步探索的起点。
- start: 7766.98
  end: 7772.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I hope you understand that I can’t answer all questions, so you have to go do your homework now based on what you’ve heard.
  zh: 我希望你们理解我不能回答所有问题，所以你们现在必须根据你们所听到的去做功课。
- start: 7772.905
  end: 7782.312
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: I want to give these gentlemen a few minutes; Dr. White needs to get to the vehicle and get some sleep tonight because he has to preach tomorrow.
  zh: 我想给这些先生几分钟时间；怀特博士需要去车上今晚要休息，因为他明天要讲道。
- start: 7783.313
  end: 7788.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Mr. Horn may also be teaching tomorrow; I don’t know, but he’ll be signing books next door.
  zh: 霍恩先生明天可能也要教课；我不知道，但他会在隔壁签书。
- start: 7788.257
  end: 7811.297
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you guys want to go ahead and make your way there so you’re not mobbed in here—in March with Leighton Flowers on John 6, and then honestly a debate where I think Trent would be 100% on my side with Dale Tuggy.
  zh: 如果你们想先过去，这样你们就不会在这里被围住——三月份与莱顿·弗劳尔斯讨论约翰福音第6章，然后说实话，有一场辩论我认为特伦特会百分之百站在我这边，就是与戴尔·塔吉的辩论。
- start: 7812.338
  end: 7813.478
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know Dale Tuggy?
  zh: 你认识戴尔·塔吉吗？
- start: 7815.24
  end: 7820.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If he brings a friend, I’ll join you.
  zh: 如果他带个朋友来，我就加入你们。
- start: 7820.883
  end: 7832.748
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that debate could be quite interesting; he is really the king of the Unitarians, and so it’s going to be on the deity of Christ and the biblical testimony to who Christ is.
  zh: 那场辩论可能会很有趣；他真的是一神论者的王者，所以这将是关于基督的神性和圣经对基督身份的见证。
- start: 7833.329
  end: 7845.836
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The main reason I want you to come back, aside from the importance of the debates, is that when we do it, I’m going to be going next door, and I don’t care what diseases I end up driving home with as a result!
  zh: 我想让你们回来的主要原因，除了辩论的重要性之外，是当我们这样做的时候，我会去隔壁，我不在乎最后开车回家时会带上什么病！
- start: 7846.297
  end: 7857.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I do apologize because the church will tell you I always stand over there late into the evening greeting people, and some of you have been here before the debate, and I miss doing it.
  zh: 但我确实要道歉，因为教会会告诉你们我总是在那里站到深夜迎接人们，你们中的一些人在辩论前就来过这里，我很怀念那样做。
- start: 7857.921
  end: 7865.746
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m sorry, but I hope you understand the wisdom when I still have three and a half weeks of teaching and debating to do.
  zh: 我很抱歉，但我希望你们理解这种明智之举，因为我还有三周半的教学和辩论要做。
- start: 7865.746
  end: 7871.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I’m not feeling well at all, so please pray for me in that way, and I look forward to seeing you in a couple of weeks.
  zh: 我感觉很不舒服，所以请为我祷告，我期待几周后再见到你们。
- start: 7871.89
  end: 7873.611
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Thank you for letting me be here.
  zh: 谢谢你们让我来到这里。
- start: 7879.637
  end: 7885.186
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only reason I can be over there to shake hands is that I have three little kids, so I’ve already gotten everything.
  zh: 我能在那边握手的唯一原因是我有三个小孩，所以我已经得过所有的病了。
- start: 7885.186
  end: 7888.632
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Have a great night, and thank you for coming!
  zh: 祝你们晚上愉快，感谢你们的到来！
