- start: 9.792
  end: 11.093
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Welcome back to Shameless Popery.
  zh: 欢迎再次回到「无耻教皇党」。
- start: 11.093
  end: 12.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm Joe Eschmeyer.
  zh: 我是乔·艾施迈尔。
- start: 12.493
  end: 17.275
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this is the third of three videos on prayers to the saints.
  zh: 这是关于向圣徒祈祷的第三支视频。
- start: 17.275
  end: 23.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't have to have seen either two for this one to make sense, because in some ways this is actually going to be the most basic one.
  zh: 你不需要看过前面那两个视频也能理解这一支，因为某种程度上，这支才是最基础的。
- start: 23.755
  end: 35.262
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The first two videos were objections by Dr. Gavin Ortlund: the idea that medieval prayers to the saints drew people away from Christ, and the idea that prayers are of pagan origin, and responded to those arguments.'
  zh: 前两支视频是回应该加文·奥特伦博士提出的反对意见：其中一个是认为中世纪对圣徒的祈祷让人远离基督，另一个是认为这样的祈祷源自异教，然后我也对这些论点作出了回应。
- start: 35.262
  end: 45.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But Gavin and I actually seem to agree that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are interceding for us, and a lot of Protestants wouldn't even give that much.
  zh: 但我和加文似乎都同意，天上的圣徒能听到我们的祈祷并为我们代求，而许多新教徒甚至不会承认这点。
- start: 46.228
  end: 48.55
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do we know either of those things are true?
  zh: 我们怎么知道这些事情是真的呢？
- start: 48.55
  end: 51.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those are reasonable objections, and I want to answer those.
  zh: 这些是合理的问题，我想要作出回答。
- start: 51.38
  end: 62.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One of the commenters, actually in the video from last week—I won't mention their name, but it's a public comment you can find it yourself if you want—had a great time and I really enjoyed it.
  zh: 其实在上周的视频里，有一位评论者——我就不说他的名字了，不过那条评论是公开的，如果你想找的话可以自己去看——我们交流得很愉快，我也非常喜欢。
- start: 62.745
  end: 64.306
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They said it had given them a lot to think about.
  zh: 他说这给他带来了很多值得思考的内容。
- start: 64.306
  end: 69.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They begrudgingly admit to it being one of the best and most enjoyable on this topic so far.
  zh: 他勉强承认，这是迄今为止在这个议题上最好、最有趣的分享之一。
- start: 71.089
  end: 84.227
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But they said, however, there are a few things I've yet to hear about in depth from Catholic apologists and scholars that I wish would be covered, because until they are, I still remain unconvinced.
  zh: 但他也说，他还没听到公教护教学者和学者们深入探讨以下几点，而在这些问题被详细解释之前，他仍然不太相信。
- start: 84.607
  end: 91.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Ah, these are going to be good objections: Number one: I''m greatly concerned that asking the saints to intercede for us opens the door to the demonic.'
  zh: 啊，这些问题应该都很不错：第一点：我很担心请求圣徒为我们代求会让邪灵有机可乘。
- start: 92.251
  end: 94.692
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Throwing out the name Mary or Peter, etc.,
  zh: 随便呼喊马利亚、彼得等人的名字，
- start: 95.152
  end: 102.175
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: is no guarantee that a particular saint is going to hear us, but it is a great way to invite a demonic spirit into our lives.
  zh: 并不能保证某位圣徒会听见，反倒很可能为邪灵敞开大门，让它们进入我们的生活。
- start: 102.175
  end: 105.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even false apparitions—we'll get into that.
  zh: 甚至还会引发各种假冒的显现——我们稍后会谈到。
- start: 105.717
  end: 115.165
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Number two: My second concern—2,000 years of accumulating saints that are neither omnipresent nor omniscient means it''s kind of hit or miss whether or not they can hear us.'
  zh: 第二：我的第二个担忧是，经过两千年累积下来的圣徒既非无所不在，也非无所不知，所以能不能听到我们的祈求就很不确定。
- start: 115.285
  end: 116.286
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We'll get into that.
  zh: 我们也会谈到这一点。
- start: 116.286
  end: 124.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Number three: Not nearly enough time is spent showing the particulars of how the saints hear us from a scriptural standpoint.'
  zh: 第三：几乎没有足够的时间用圣经的角度来具体说明圣徒是如何听到我们的祈祷的。
- start: 124.989
  end: 131.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For example, both you and Dr. Ortlund believe that the saints do hear us and are aware of what's going on on earth.
  zh: 例如，你和奥特伦博士都相信圣徒的确能听到并知道地上发生的事情。
- start: 131.912
  end: 137.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We've also heard Protestants who do not believe that they can, because that would mean that they are suffering in heaven.
  zh: 我们也遇到了一些不相信圣徒能听到的那些新教徒，因为他们觉得这代表圣徒在天上会受苦。
- start: 139.4
  end: 142.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The suffering in heaven part I think we'll get to—I know we'll get to the rest.
  zh: 至于「在天上受苦」的说法，我想我们会谈到——余下的部分我们必然也会说到。
- start: 142.881
  end: 149.683
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So here I'm going to do them more or less in reverse order from the governor's desires.
  zh: 所以在这里，我打算大体上按照与这位评论者提出的顺序相反的方式来回答。
- start: 149.804
  end: 150.544
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Sorry.
  zh: 抱歉。
- start: 151.064
  end: 155.145
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're good objections, but I think it makes more sense logically to approach them in the opposite direction.
  zh: 这些问题都很重要，不过我觉得从逻辑来讲，倒过来回答会更合理。
- start: 155.665
  end: 160.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The first one is going to be the easiest of the three: Can the saints hear us?'
  zh: 第一个问题，也是这三个之中最简单的：圣徒能不能听到我们的呼求？
- start: 161.832
  end: 167.574
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I want to look at not only what they're asking but also are the saints even conscious?
  zh: 我想要探讨的不仅是他们所问的内容，还包括圣徒是否保持意识？
- start: 167.634
  end: 175.877
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because there are some people—Seventh-day Adventists today, Martin Luther in the past—who thought the saints were actually unconscious and unable to hear us.
  zh: 因为到如今还有一些人——像现今的基督复临安息日会，以及过去的马丁·路德——认为圣徒其实是处于无意识状态，无法听到我们的祈求。
- start: 176.657
  end: 183.84
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The second and much harder question is: Well, how are the saints able to see or hear us?'
  zh: 第二个，也更困难的问题是：那圣徒究竟是如何看见或听见我们的？
- start: 183.84
  end: 187.041
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How are the saints able to see or hear anything?
  zh: 圣徒又是怎样看见或听见任何事的？
- start: 188.126
  end: 191.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We'll get into that, but it's going to take a little more of a deep dive.
  zh: 我们会深入探讨，但也需要更详细的讨论。
- start: 192.288
  end: 197.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'And the third set of objections is: Well, should we do this anyway?'
  zh: 第三个疑问则是：既然如此，我们到底该不该这样做？
- start: 197.01
  end: 209.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, even if I'm convinced the saints are in heaven and that they are praying, how do I know when I say Mary, pray for us that some demon isn't crawling up there saying, All right, that gives me permission to torment you now?
  zh: 就是，即使我相信圣徒在天上，并且他们正为我们祈祷，我怎么知道当我说「马利亚，请为我们代求」时，不会有哪个邪灵跳出来说：「好啊，这样我就能来折磨你了」呢？
- start: 209.675
  end: 210.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So how does that work?
  zh: 那这个是怎么回事呢？
- start: 210.975
  end: 217.658
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because Scripture does condemn things like necromancy and spiritualism and like Ouija boards and conjuring up the dead.
  zh: 因为圣经确实谴责了招魂、巫术，以及类似通灵板、召唤亡灵之类的行为。
- start: 217.853
  end: 220.594
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Ouija boards didn't exist then, but you get the idea.
  zh: 在当时不存在通灵板，但你明白那意思。
- start: 221.374
  end: 224.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What makes this different from that?
  zh: 那这和那些行为究竟有什么不一样呢？
- start: 224.655
  end: 228.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are good questions, and I'm glad people are thinking these through.
  zh: 这些都是好问题，我很高兴大家在认真思考。
- start: 228.615
  end: 231.036
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm going to do my best to answer them more or less in order.
  zh: 我会尽力依次回答这些问题。
- start: 231.036
  end: 235.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let's start with the idea of soul sleep—the idea that saints can't hear us because they're asleep.
  zh: 让我们先从「灵魂沉睡」这个观点开始——也就是认为圣徒听不到我们，因为他们在「睡眠」中。
- start: 235.957
  end: 239.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In answering this, I'm going to answer some of the beginning of the camp.
  zh: 在回答这个问题时，我也会回应这派人士最初的一些想法。
- start: 239.438
  end: 240.958
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're going to have to go a little deeper.
  zh: 我们必须更深入地探讨一下。
- start: 242.142
  end: 247.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the soul sleep idea is most popularly associated with the Seventh-day Adventists.
  zh: 「灵魂沉睡」这个说法最常见于基督复临安息日会。
- start: 247.525
  end: 255.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And on their official website in their declaration of their beliefs, they say the Bible says those who have died know nothing.
  zh: 在他们官方网站上的信仰宣言中，他们说圣经说死人一无所知。
- start: 256.009
  end: 259.251
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That means we aren't aware of the passage of time after death.
  zh: 这意味着人死后不会意识到时间的流逝。
- start: 259.471
  end: 261.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We aren't aware of what's happening in the world.
  zh: 也不知道世上正在发生什么事。
- start: 261.552
  end: 263.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Death is like a deep sleep.
  zh: 他们认为死亡就像深度睡眠。
- start: 263.633
  end: 271.757
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Your body and spirit rest as the breath of life, which makes body and soul one and alive, has returned to God until the resurrection.
  zh: 人的身体和灵都在休息，因为那使身体和灵魂成为一体并给予生命的气息，已经回到神那里，一直到复活为止。
- start: 273.004
  end: 277.585
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You can see I think why it's called soul sleep.
  zh: 你可以理解为什么这叫作「灵魂沉睡」。
- start: 278.566
  end: 280.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Martin Luther flirted with this idea.
  zh: 马丁·路德也一度对这个想法颇感兴趣。
- start: 280.407
  end: 286.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He kind of tentatively embraced it in part in a letter in 1522 to a university professor.
  zh: 在1522年给某位大学教授的一封信里，他有些犹疑地部分接受了这个立场。
- start: 286.489
  end: 290.59
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says, I'm inclined to agree with your opinion that the souls of the just are asleep.
  zh: 他说：「我倾向于同意你的看法，认为义人的灵魂是沉睡的。」
- start: 290.93
  end: 294.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They do not know where they are up to the day of judgment.
  zh: 他们不知道自己在哪里，一直到审判的日子。
- start: 294.891
  end: 300.853
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, this would of course have major implications for things like purgatory, for the intercession of saints, and all sorts of things.
  zh: 显然，这对炼狱、圣徒的代求以及其他许多方面都会有重大的影响。
- start: 300.853
  end: 313.706
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It was actually a very convenient thing for a Protestant to believe in, because if soul sleep is true, then yeah, the saints' intercession doesn't work, and also the souls aren't in purgatory, and also they're not in the beatific vision.
  zh: 这个观念对一位新教徒而言的确很方便，因为如果灵魂沉睡是真的，那么圣徒代求就行不通，灵魂也不在炼狱，也不享受神临在的荣福直观。
- start: 313.706
  end: 315.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not enjoying or experiencing God.
  zh: 他们并没有在享受或经历神的同在。
- start: 315.428
  end: 316.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're just asleep.
  zh: 他们只是在沉睡。
- start: 318.49
  end: 325.296
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not exactly annihilated; they're just floating around there somewhere without any consciousness.
  zh: 他们并没有被消灭，只是漂浮在某个地方，没有任何意识。
- start: 326.658
  end: 334.824
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nevertheless, Luther realized this couldn't completely be right, so he said, I do not dare to affirm that this is true for all souls in general.
  zh: 然而，路德也意识到这说法不可能全然正确，所以他说：「我不敢断言这对所有灵魂都是真的。」
- start: 335.345
  end: 342.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And he points to some scriptural evidence that, as we're going to see, actually seems to pretty clearly refute soul sleep.
  zh: 他指出一些经文证据，我们接下来会看到，这些经文似乎相当明确地驳斥了灵魂沉睡的说法。
- start: 343.027
  end: 349.449
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he's going to try to have it both ways to say, well, maybe some souls are asleep and some aren't of the righteous.
  zh: 但他又想两面都保留，觉得也许有些义人的灵魂在沉睡，也有些则没有。
- start: 349.449
  end: 351.649
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's kind of a strange position that he takes.
  zh: 他所持的立场有些奇怪。
- start: 351.649
  end: 361.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't seem to have been one that caught on among many Protestants because Luther was himself not super consistent on it and didn't seem to be totally convinced of his own argument.
  zh: 这观点似乎并未被许多新教徒接受，因为路德本人在这方面并不太一致，也看不出他对自己的立场有多坚定。
- start: 361.756
  end: 370.001
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But nevertheless, I want to be fair to both Luther and the Adventists that there are these passages in the Scripture that speak about death as sleep.
  zh: 尽管如此，我还是想客观看待路德和基督复临安息日会，因为的确有一些经文把死亡比喻成睡眠。
- start: 370.001
  end: 372.241
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So how do we make sense of those?
  zh: 那我们该如何理解这些经文呢？
- start: 372.982
  end: 381.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For instance, in John 11, when Lazarus dies, Jesus says, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.
  zh: 例如，在约翰福音第十一章中，拉撒路去世时，耶稣说：「我们的朋友拉撒路睡了，我要去叫醒他。」
- start: 381.527
  end: 392.054
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, unfortunately, the apostles are often biblical literalists, and so they hear this and they think that he's talking about physical sleep, and Jesus has to explain, no, he's talking about death.
  zh: 然而，不幸的是，使徒常常会从字面来理解经文，所以他们听到这话，就以为主说的是肉身睡觉，耶稣就得向他们解释，其实祂是指死亡。
- start: 393.455
  end: 407.782
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's John 11. Another passage is Ecclesiastes 12. Now this one, fascinatingly, is quoted by the Seventh-day Adventists, who say that well, the line says, And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
  zh: 这是在约翰福音第十一章。另一个经文段落是传道书第十二章。有意思的是，基督复临安息日会就引用它，说其中有一句话：「尘土仍归于地，灵仍归于赐灵的神。」
- start: 407.963
  end: 424.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, as a non-Adventist reading this, that seems to be very clearly saying that when we talk about sleeping in death, we're talking about the body going to rest in the earth until the general resurrection, not about the soul being asleep, but about the body being asleep, as it were.
  zh: 如果不是安息日会的立场来读这段经文，会感觉它很明显地告诉我们，当我们说人在死亡中「沉睡」时，指的是身体归于尘土、安息，等候普世复活，而不是说灵魂在睡觉，而是如同身体在「睡眠」一般。
- start: 425.426
  end: 432.85
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the reason we call it sleep—this is by the way where we get words like cemetery—we're referring to this as like the place of sleep.
  zh: 我们之所以称之为「睡眠」，也是为什么我们用「cemetery」这种词——意思就是休憩之所。
- start: 433.01
  end: 441.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The pagans called it a necropolis, a city of the dead, but we use cemetery because we believe this is a place of rest before they rise again.
  zh: 在异教的传统里，他们称之为「死者之城」（necropolis），而我们之所以使用「墓园」这个词，是因为我们相信这是一处休息之所，等到他们复活。
- start: 441.515
  end: 448.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Daniel 12 talks about this: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth—notice that where are they asleep?'
  zh: 但以理书第十二章也谈到这个：「尘土中睡着的有许多人……」——注意，这里说他们在哪里睡？
- start: 448.663
  end: 455.188
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In the dust of the earth, they're buried—shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
  zh: 就是在地上的尘土里，他们入土了——他们将被唤醒，有的得享永生，有的受羞辱，且被永远憎恶。
- start: 455.188
  end: 459.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this sleeping and awaking are references to bodily death and bodily resurrection.
  zh: 所以这里说的「睡着」与「醒来」，指的是身体的死亡与将来的身体复活。
- start: 459.851
  end: 468.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's not about the soul, unless you believe the soul is actually in the ground—you know, if you dig around, you're going to find people's souls, or you could say their souls in their body.
  zh: 要说这是形容灵魂，就得先相信灵魂真的在地底下——比方说，你挖一下就能找着他们的灵魂，或者说灵魂和身体仍在一起。
- start: 468.798
  end: 473.097
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the whole idea of death is a separation of soul and body.
  zh: 然而，死亡的本质就在于灵魂与身体分离。
- start: 473.097
  end: 474.997
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's literally what death is.
  zh: 这正是死亡的定义。
- start: 475.097
  end: 482.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Latin word for soul is anima, which is the animation—it's what makes your body alive.
  zh: 拉丁文里，灵魂这个词是「anima」，含有「给予生命」的意思——它让你的身体活着。
- start: 483.14
  end: 489.062
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Peter Kreeft, the philosopher, gives the example of two cows who are identical.
  zh: 哲学家彼得·克雷夫特举了一个例子，说有两头完全相同的牛。
- start: 489.963
  end: 496.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only difference is one of them is alive and one of them is dead, and one of them has just died moments ago.
  zh: 唯一区别是，一头是活的，另一头是死的，而且是刚刚死去。
- start: 496.725
  end: 499.586
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And he says, Well, what's biologically the difference?
  zh: 他说：「从生物角度看，这两者差别究竟是什么呢？」
- start: 499.617
  end: 506.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The same weight, the same height, the same shape, the same—all of the material properties are the same.
  zh: 它们的体重、身高、外形都一样，所有物理特征都一样。
- start: 506.283
  end: 518.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: At the level of matter, there might be identical twin cows, but there's something else—an animating principle that's in one and not in the other.
  zh: 从物质层面看，这就像同卵双胞胎的牛，可是其中有一个所缺少的，是某种使之活动的本质，而另一个还具备。
- start: 518.033
  end: 521.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In one cow, all of those big material parts are working together.
  zh: 在那头活牛身上，这些物质部分会彼此协作。
- start: 521.136
  end: 525.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're moving and they're keeping the cow alive, aware, et cetera.
  zh: 它们会移动，让牛保持生命和感知，等等。
- start: 525.9
  end: 528.516
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And in the other, those things aren't there.
  zh: 而在另一头牛身上，这些功能都不存在了。
- start: 528.516
  end: 534.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, they so much aren't there that the different organs and systems pretty quickly start to decay and fall apart.
  zh: 实际上，由于缺少那个要素，各种器官和系统很快就会开始衰败分解。
- start: 536.338
  end: 544.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We need a name for whatever we're going to call that animating principle, and the Latin word for that is anima, which in English we say soul.
  zh: 我们需要有个称呼来命名这种赋予生命的原理，拉丁语叫作「anima」，英文就是「soul」。
- start: 544.66
  end: 552.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That''s what we literally mean by a soul: that principle by which a material thing is kept together and kept alive.'
  zh: 我们说的灵魂，正是指这个维持物质整体并使之活着的原理。
- start: 553.642
  end: 562.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So to say that the soul is asleep in the body is just to say that the person is asleep, not dead.
  zh: 因此，如果说灵魂「在身体里沉睡」，那其实就只是说这个人还在睡，没有死。
- start: 562.278
  end: 580.267
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When we say a person is dead, we mean the soul has actually left the body, which is why, for instance, in the case of Jesus, we can talk about Him both in 1 Peter 3 descending to preach to the souls who rejected Him in the days of Noah, and we can also speak about Him being in the tomb.
  zh: 而当我们说一个人死了，就是表示他的灵魂已离开身体。这就是为什么，譬如我们会说耶稣在彼得前书第三章里「降到阴间向挪亚时代不信的人传道」，同时也可以说祂当时仍在坟墓里。
- start: 580.427
  end: 589.314
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He is in both places because you are soul and body, and so when soul and body are separated, there's a sense in which you are in one place, there's a sense in which you are in the other place.
  zh: 祂同时存在于两个地方，因为人是灵魂与身体共同构成，灵魂和身体一旦分开，就有一种意义上说「你」在此处，也有另一种意义上说「你」在彼处。
- start: 589.834
  end: 595.638
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hopefully that makes sense, but certainly how Scripture speaks is how we speak of Christ.
  zh: 希望这样解释能说明问题，而圣经的说法正是我们论述基督方式的基础。
- start: 596.879
  end: 609.206
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It explains in this first sense that we can talk about the soul and the body separately, and the body has gone to rest in peace in anticipation of the bodily resurrection.
  zh: 从这个角度来说，我们可以把灵魂和身体区分开来。身体安息，等待将来身体的复活。
- start: 609.793
  end: 614.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can also, strikingly, talk about the soul entering the rest of God as well.
  zh: 同时，也可以很明确地说，灵魂进入了神所赐的安息。
- start: 615.379
  end: 626.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We'll get into the right and wrong way to use that, but we see that pretty clearly in Psalm 95, when God says of the rebellious Israelites in the Exodus that I swore in my anger they should not enter into my rest.
  zh: 关于如何正确或错误地使用这个概念，我们稍后再谈。我们在诗篇第九十五篇中清楚地看到，当神谈到在出埃及过程中悖逆的以色列人时，说：「我就在怒中起誓，他们断不可进入我的安息。」
- start: 627.631
  end: 640.13
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hebrews 4 has a great comment and explains what's meant by the rest—that it's the Sabbath day, the Sabbath rest of God, because on that day God rested from all His works.
  zh: 希伯来书第四章对此有很好的说明，解释了这里的「安息」指的是什么——就是安息日，也就是神自己的安息，因为那一天神停止了一切工作。
- start: 640.13
  end: 643.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When we talk about rest in this sense, we don't mean loss of consciousness.
  zh: 在这种意义上，我们所说的安息并不是指人的意识丧失。
- start: 644.394
  end: 646.656
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We mean you're no longer striving.
  zh: 而是说人不再继续劳苦挣扎了。
- start: 646.877
  end: 657.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That when the soul is at rest in God—this is the second sense we can talk about rest—not that you're not aware of what's going on, but no, no, no, life is hard.
  zh: 当灵魂安息于神时——这是我们谈论「安息」的第二层意义——并不意味着你对周遭的事毫无知觉，不不不，生命仍然艰难。
- start: 657.593
  end: 659.975
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
  zh: 要带着恐惧战兢完成你自己的得救之工。
- start: 659.975
  end: 667.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And now that this journey has been completed and you've received your reward, you kind of relax, right?
  zh: 而当这趟旅程完成，你也领取了你的奖赏，你自然会有点放松，是吧？
- start: 667.321
  end: 669.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're no longer striving in the same way.
  zh: 你不再以同样的方式不断努力了。
- start: 669.223
  end: 679.342
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, sure, you're still praying for other people, all of that is still true, but it's that loss of striving, the completion of all that.
  zh: 当然，你还会为别人祈祷，这些都没错，但那种劳苦已经终止，一切已经圆满结束。
- start: 679.342
  end: 685.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Day six is the day of humanity and this great day of effort, and day seven is the Sabbath rest of God.
  zh: 第六日是人类的大劳苦之日，而第七日则是神的安息日。
- start: 685.363
  end: 688.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But this is the today of God that we're trying to enter.
  zh: 然而，这正是我们努力要进入的「神的今日」。
- start: 689.144
  end: 690.244
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hopefully that's clear.
  zh: 希望这样解释够清楚了。
- start: 690.244
  end: 701.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When we talk about rest in that sense, we don't mean unaware of what's going on, or else we'd have to say God, who rested on the seventh day from all His works, isn't aware of what's going on in the world since Genesis—and that would be a huge disaster.
  zh: 当我们这样谈论「安息」时，并不是指对周遭事物不知不觉，否则就得说，那位在第七日歇了他一切工的神，从创世记以来就不知道世界上发生了什么——那可就糟糕了。
- start: 701.566
  end: 709.031
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Obviously, God knows what's going on and yet is at rest, and that's the kind of rest we're talking about when we talk about the soul being at rest.
  zh: 显然，神知道所发生的一切，但仍在安息中；当我们说灵魂安息时，也正是这种安息的含义。
- start: 709.772
  end: 716.875
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that's the twofold sense biblically we can talk about souls and bodies resting in death.
  zh: 这是圣经里所说的灵魂与身体在死亡中「安息」的两层含义。
- start: 718.136
  end: 722.558
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what about these supposedly sleeping souls or resting souls?
  zh: 那对于那些据说在「沉睡」或「安息」中的灵魂，该怎么理解呢？
- start: 722.959
  end: 726.421
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Are they aware of earthly affairs or no?
  zh: 他们是否知道地上的事呢？
- start: 726.421
  end: 729.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the biblical evidence here is very clear that they are.
  zh: 在这点上，圣经证据明确显示他们确实知道。
- start: 729.855
  end: 757.029
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Revelation—we''re going to mostly look at, and the reason I''m looking mostly at Revelation is because A) it''s pretty directly about heaven, and B) Protestants haven''t removed it from their Bibles (although Luther thought they should, but that''s another question). In Revelation 6, I mentioned this last week, the souls that are under the altar—the martyrs—cry out in prayer: O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before that will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?'
  zh: 我们主要来看启示录，原因是：第一，启示录很直接地关乎天上的景象；第二，新教徒还保留启示录在圣经里（虽然路德曾建议要删掉，这是另一个话题）。在我上周提到的启示录第六章里，祭坛下的殉道者的灵魂呼喊着祷告：「圣洁真实的主啊，你不审判住在地上的人，给我们伸冤，要等到几时呢？」
- start: 757.489
  end: 762.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And they're told to rest a little longer, just keep resting.
  zh: 于是有人告诉他们要再安息片刻，继续安息。
- start: 762.592
  end: 767.813
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But notice that this rest that they're experiencing in heaven is not a loss of consciousness.
  zh: 但请注意，他们在天上经历的这种安息并不是失去意识。
- start: 768.914
  end: 770.014
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're praying.
  zh: 他们在祈祷。
- start: 770.014
  end: 779.096
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're aware that justice has still not been done on earth, that there's still injustice, and they're told to continue to rest until the number of their fellow servants, their brethren, should be complete.
  zh: 他们知道地上还有不义之事尚未被伸张，也被告知要继续安息，直到与他们同作仆人的弟兄人数满足为止。
- start: 780.097
  end: 785.898
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, there are some Protestants who think if this is true, this means there's suffering in heaven.
  zh: 现今有些新教徒会认为，如果这是事实，那就说明在天上还会受苦。
- start: 786.335
  end: 797.347
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I would argue, well, first you've got to make sense of Revelation 6, because clearly there are souls who are aware of injustice on earth and are praying about it and are praying for justice to be done.
  zh: 我的回应是，你必须先弄懂启示录第六章，因为显然那里提到有灵魂确知地上的不公，并为此祷告，祈求正义得以伸张。
- start: 798.308
  end: 799.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So how is that not suffering?
  zh: 那他们又怎会不在受苦中呢？
- start: 799.79
  end: 803.713
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because they're content and at rest in God even amidst this.
  zh: 之所以如此，是因为即便在这样的情境中，他们依然在神里面得安息且心满意足。
- start: 806.857
  end: 820.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There are not injustices in heaven, and so the idea that happiness in heaven can only come from God hiding the truth from us—we can't know how bad things really are, we wouldn't be able to be happy—is a bad view of heaven.
  zh: 天上本没有不公，所以若有人认为天上的快乐必须依靠神隐藏真相、使我们对这世界的败坏一无所知，不然我们就无法快乐——这种对天国的看法并不恰当。
- start: 820.656
  end: 822.136
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don't know another way to say that.
  zh: 我也不知道该怎么更好地表达了。
- start: 822.316
  end: 837.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's a view of heaven where God has to be a little bit of a deceiver for us to be able to be happy, and He has to just kind of like maybe not lie to us but mislead us to not let us know how bad things are in that world, like God was hiding the truth from you.
  zh: 在那样的观点里，神就像得用一点欺瞒的手段，才能让我们快乐；祂或许不直接欺骗我们，却要误导我们，不让我们知道世界有多糟，就像神对你有所隐瞒似的。
- start: 838.237
  end: 844.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don't think that would be happiness anyway, because you'd know, I think God's hiding something from me.
  zh: 我并不认为这样就能带来真正的喜乐，因为你心里总会觉得：「我想神在瞒着我什么。」
- start: 844.322
  end: 853.769
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And like, what would it even mean to contemplate God and His fullness and His truth while at the same time having the idea that God isn't telling you the full truth?
  zh: 并且，如果你心里觉得神没有把完整的真理告诉你，那你要如何沉思神的丰满与真理呢？
- start: 853.769
  end: 855.63
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It just seems like it's a weird vision of happiness.
  zh: 这听起来就像一个很奇怪的幸福观。
- start: 855.63
  end: 862.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the happiness of the saints does not turn on them only knowing the good news and having the bad news hidden from them.
  zh: 因此，圣徒的喜乐并不建立在只知道好消息，而坏消息都被隐藏的前提下。
- start: 863.116
  end: 870.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These saints underneath the altar are experiencing happiness, the bad news, and still trusting in God and praying to God.
  zh: 这些在祭坛下的圣徒既正享受喜乐，也看到坏消息的存在，同时仍然信靠神，并向神祈祷。
- start: 870.417
  end: 871.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not unhappy here.
  zh: 他们并没有不快乐。
- start: 872.159
  end: 874.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're still in perfect glory.
  zh: 他们仍处在完美的荣耀之中。
- start: 874.321
  end: 877.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They nevertheless desire good things for others.
  zh: 然而，他们依然渴望为他人带来美善。
- start: 877.804
  end: 884.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That''s at the heart of intercessory prayer: that the saints who enjoy all good things want us to enjoy good things as well.'
  zh: 这正是代祷的核心：那些享受一切美善的圣徒，也盼望我们能同享美善。
- start: 884.309
  end: 893.457
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those good things might be help me find my keys, it might be avenging the injustice done to martyr Christians, it might be anything in between those two points.
  zh: 这些美善的请求也许是帮我找到钥匙，也可能是为殉道基督徒伸张正义，或是介于这两者之间的任何事。
- start: 895.171
  end: 904.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's Revelation chapter 6. In Luke 9, you have one of the passages that persuaded Luther he couldn't just fully bind his soul's sleep—and he was right to point to this.
  zh: 这在启示录第六章就提到。在路加福音第九章中，有一段经文让路德认识到，他不能完全拥护灵魂沉睡说——而且他指出这点是正确的。
- start: 904.919
  end: 914.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah come to Jesus, and we're told they appear in glory and they spoke of His departure, which He was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
  zh: 在主的荣显变像中，摩西与以利亚出现，来到耶稣面前；我们得知他们在荣光中显现，并且谈到祂将在耶路撒冷要成就的事。
- start: 914.306
  end: 925.095
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Moses and Elijah seem like some of the only people to actually get what's going on on earth—that Jesus has this ministry and that's leading Him towards Jerusalem, towards the Cross.
  zh: 摩西和以利亚似乎是少数真正明白地上局势的人——他们知道耶稣正在履行祂的事工，而且这事工会把祂带向耶路撒冷，走向十字架。
- start: 926.189
  end: 937.192
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, if anything, they're more aware of what's going on than the disciples who've been with Jesus are, because the disciples still don't get that Jesus is going to Jerusalem to die.
  zh: 也就是说，他们对所发生的事的了解，比那些与耶稣同在的门徒还多，因为门徒还不明白耶稣要往耶路撒冷去受死。
- start: 937.632
  end: 939.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Moses and Elijah certainly seem to get that.
  zh: 摩西和以利亚显然非常清楚这一点。
- start: 939.633
  end: 943.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So they seem completely aware of what's going on here on earth.
  zh: 所以他们似乎对地上正在发生的事情一清二楚。
- start: 944.694
  end: 947.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then I want to turn to maybe a surprising example.
  zh: 然后我想转到一个也许会让人惊讶的例子上。
- start: 947.135
  end: 955.417
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'This is one regularly used by those who think the souls of the just can''t hear you: 1 Samuel 28. Now, it''s a complicated passage for a few reasons.'
  zh: 这段经文常被那些认为义人灵魂听不到我们的人引用，就是撒母耳记上第28章。它之所以复杂，有几个原因。
- start: 955.712
  end: 964.08
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One, it involves a medium—like a witch, basically—and King Saul goes to her.
  zh: 第一，它牵涉到一个交鬼的女人——基本上就像女巫——而扫罗王去找了她。
- start: 964.501
  end: 970.145
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She does some weird magic stuff and says, I see a god coming up out of the earth.
  zh: 她使用了一些奇怪的巫术，然后说：「我看见有神从地里上来。」
- start: 971.107
  end: 972.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Saul says, What is his appearance?
  zh: 扫罗问：「他是怎样的形状呢？」
- start: 972.868
  end: 976.592
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She says, An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.
  zh: 她说：「有一个老人上来，身披外衣。」
- start: 976.592
  end: 978.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: At this point, Saul realizes it's Samuel.
  zh: 到这时，扫罗才明白那人是撒母耳。
- start: 978.834
  end: 981.336
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He bows his face to the ground and does a beseance.
  zh: 于是他俯伏在地行拜礼。
- start: 982.523
  end: 990.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then there's this line that regularly gets quoted, I think out of context, because Samuel says, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
  zh: 接着出现一句经常被人引用的话，我认为是被断章取义了：撒母耳说：「你为何搅扰我，叫我上来呢？」
- start: 990.528
  end: 997.252
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so, reasonably enough, if this is the only Bible verse you read on this subject, you might say, Well, yeah, look.
  zh: 因此，如果你只看过这段经文，你也许会说：「是啊，你看……」
- start: 997.312
  end: 1000.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Samuel can't hear anything.
  zh: 撒母耳什么都听不到。
- start: 1003.919
  end: 1006.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I think this is a rebuke when he says, Why have you conjured me?
  zh: 但我认为这句话其实是种责备，「你为何叫我？请我上来做什么？」
- start: 1006.92
  end: 1009.381
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
  zh: 「你为何搅扰我，让我从下界被召上来？」
- start: 1009.381
  end: 1011.322
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He's not like, It's early.
  zh: 他并不是在说：「现在还很早，」
- start: 1011.322
  end: 1012.883
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why did you wake me up?
  zh: 「你为什么把我吵醒？」
- start: 1012.883
  end: 1017.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No, this is a rebuke, and we know that from everything that follows.
  zh: 不是的，这是一个责问，而我们从后面的内容也能看出来。
- start: 1017.865
  end: 1026.349
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because Saul says to Samuel that the reason he brought him up was because he's worried about this battle with the Philistines.
  zh: 因为扫罗向撒母耳解释，他这样做的理由是担心与非利士人的争战。
- start: 1026.624
  end: 1035.151
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Samuel does two things: First, in verses 16 to 18, he tells him that God has turned from him because he has not been faithful to God.'
  zh: 撒母耳提出了两点：第一，在第16到18节，他告诉扫罗，神离弃了他，因为他没有忠于神。
- start: 1035.151
  end: 1039.654
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is what Samuel had warned during his lifetime, and now it's coming to pass.
  zh: 这正是撒母耳在世时就警告过的事，如今已经应验了。
- start: 1039.675
  end: 1047.501
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then, secondly, and more remarkably, in 1 Samuel 28, verse 19, Samuel makes a prediction about the future.
  zh: 接着，第二点，也更值得注意的是，在撒母耳记上28章19节，撒母耳对将来作出预言。
- start: 1047.501
  end: 1056.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says, Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me.
  zh: 他说：「耶和华必将以色列人和你一同交在非利士人手里，明日你和你众子必与我在一处了。」
- start: 1057.273
  end: 1061.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The Lord would give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.
  zh: 耶和华也要把以色列的军队交在非利士人手中。
- start: 1062.017
  end: 1069.102
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'In plain language: tomorrow, Israel is going to lose the battle, and you and your sons are going to die because of your unfaithfulness.'
  zh: 换句话说：明天以色列会战败，而你和你的儿子都会丧命，这是因为你不忠于神。
- start: 1069.142
  end: 1072.644
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Here''s the kicker: all of that came to pass.'
  zh: 重点在于：这一切果然就照着所说的发生了。
- start: 1074.306
  end: 1082.792
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Samuel, who is often invoked as someone who doesn't know what's going on, both knows the present and the future of what's going on on earth.
  zh: 撒母耳经常被拿来当作不知世事的例子，但他其实既知道地上的现况，也知道将来要发生的事。
- start: 1083.033
  end: 1086.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'So all of that points to: no, they really do know.'
  zh: 这就说明：不，他们确实知道。
- start: 1087.145
  end: 1095.548
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, there are a few other passages that I point to that aren't in Protestant Bibles, but they were in the Bibles of early Christians.
  zh: 现在我想提到另外几处经文，不在新教的《圣经》里，但在早期基督徒的《圣经》当中却有收录。
- start: 1095.568
  end: 1096.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The first one is from Baruch.
  zh: 第一个在《巴录书》。
- start: 1096.709
  end: 1099.69
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even John Calvin thought the book of Baruch was divine Scripture.
  zh: 连加尔文都曾认为《巴录书》是神所默示的经文。
- start: 1100.33
  end: 1113.215
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'In there, it says in chapter 3, verse 4: O Lord Almighty God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before Thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.'
  zh: 其中在第三章第四节写道：「主，全能的以色列之神，求你此时垂听以色列亡者的祈祷，也垂听那些在你面前犯罪之人的子孙的祷告；他们没有听从耶和华——他们神的声音，因此这些灾祸便常伴着我们。」
- start: 1113.817
  end: 1132.304
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It seems to be very explicitly saying those who have died in Christ, or died in the faith in God—and they wouldn't have said Christ at this point in the Old Testament—that these righteous dead are still praying, and God should listen to those prayers.
  zh: 这段经文似乎很清楚地表明，那些在神的信仰中去世的人——（在旧约时代当然不会直接说「在基督里去世」）——这些已去世的义人仍在祈祷，而神要垂听他们的祈祷。
- start: 1132.504
  end: 1152.072
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'The second one I already mentioned last week is 2 Maccabees, chapter 15. Short version: Judas Maccabeus, the leader of the Jewish people right before a major battle, is visited by the already departed high priest Ananias and the prophet Jeremiah, who intercede for him, who give him spiritual counsel, who give him a sword for the vow.'
  zh: 第二处是我上周提到的《马加比下》第十五章。简单说，犹大·马加比当时正在大战前夕，去世已久的大祭司亚拿尼雅和先知耶利米向他显现，为他代求，给他属灵的劝诫，还赠他一把为誓愿所用的宝剑。
- start: 1152.793
  end: 1156.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These books were regarded as divine Scripture by the early Christians.
  zh: 这些书在早期基督徒眼中也被视作神所默示的经文。
- start: 1157.374
  end: 1162.374
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And seemingly correctly, but that's another question.
  zh: 看似相当正确，但那是另一个问题了。
- start: 1162.654
  end: 1169.065
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But either way, if you remove those, that's no argument that the evidence isn't there.
  zh: 但无论如何，即使有人把这些书从《圣经》中去掉，也不能说证据就不存在了。
- start: 1169.065
  end: 1175.147
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You've just gotten rid of some of the evidence, but there's still plenty of other evidence that the saints hear us and intercede for us.
  zh: 这样只是去除了部分证据而已，其实仍有许多其他证据表明圣徒能够听到我们的呼求并为我们代求。
- start: 1175.407
  end: 1187.75
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Going back to the Book of Revelation, this is a passage I touched on last week as well: We have the four living creatures, the 24 elders who fall down before the Lord, and they''re offering golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.'
  zh: 再回到《启示录》，这是我上周也提到的一段：那里记载了四活物与二十四位长老伏倒在主面前，持着盛满香的金炉（或金碗），这些香就是众圣徒的祈祷。
- start: 1188.09
  end: 1197.012
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that's critical because here are these—especially the elders, seemingly human in heaven—who are not only praying for us.
  zh: 这点很关键，因为这些——尤其这些长老，看上去是天上的人——不但在为我们祈祷。
- start: 1197.182
  end: 1197.922
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let's pray.
  zh: 让我们来到祈祷这一点。
- start: 1223.47
  end: 1228.513
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Revelation is drawing on Tobit, another of the books not in Protestant Bibles.
  zh: 在《启示录》中，也借鉴到《多比传》的内容——它同样不在新教的《圣经》里。
- start: 1228.594
  end: 1236.659
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because Tobit 12 talks about this is one of the things the angels do, particularly the seven angels that stand in the presence of God.
  zh: 因为《多比传》第十二章提到这是天使们，如同那些立在神面前的七位天使，会做的工作。
- start: 1236.659
  end: 1244.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Revelation 8 says this is true of the seven angels that stand in the presence of God, but also true of the four living creatures and the 24 elders.
  zh: 《启示录》第八章说，那些立在神面前的七位天使确实如此，四活物和二十四位长老也是一样。
- start: 1246.026
  end: 1254.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So all that's to say the biblical evidence is actually pretty clear that the saints are conscious and that they're praying for us.
  zh: 综上所述，经文其实相当清晰地表明，圣徒是有意识的，并且他们在为我们祈祷。
- start: 1254.01
  end: 1261.675
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That doesn''t answer everything because it still raises, I think, a pretty good question, which is: How in the world does that work?'
  zh: 虽然这并未解答全部疑问，因为它仍引出一个很好的问题：那这一切到底是怎么进行的呢？
- start: 1263.216
  end: 1265.157
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do the saints hear our prayers?
  zh: 圣徒究竟如何听到我们的祈祷？
- start: 1265.318
  end: 1270.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do they hear us if more than one of us approaches the same saint at the same time?
  zh: 假如同时有好几个人向同一位圣徒祈求，他们又如何一并听见？
- start: 1271.341
  end: 1273.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What if we approach them in different languages?
  zh: 如果我们使用不同的语言向圣徒祈祷，那又怎么办？
- start: 1273.042
  end: 1274.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What if I pray really quietly?
  zh: 如果我祈祷时声音很小，怎么办？
- start: 1274.403
  end: 1278.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What if I think my prayer and do my rosary without moving my lips?
  zh: 如果我只是心里祈祷，在默念玫瑰经而不出声，怎么办？
- start: 1279.545
  end: 1281.046
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How does any of that work?
  zh: 所有这些情况究竟要如何运作？
- start: 1281.226
  end: 1284.067
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And here I'm going to give you three words of advice.
  zh: 在这里，我想给你三个建议。
- start: 1284.348
  end: 1296.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Bear with me, because notice in this we're asking a question about human limitations, and these questions are not just biblical, they're philosophical and metaphysical.
  zh: 请耐心听我说，因为我们这是在讨论人类的局限性，而这些问题不仅与圣经有关，也牵涉到哲学及形而上学层面。
- start: 1296.835
  end: 1301.117
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Meaning this: I''m going to give an example from an article.'
  zh: 也就是说，我想举一个文章中的例子。
- start: 1301.117
  end: 1307.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Matt Slick from CARM, which is like a Protestant apologetics website, argues Mary can't hear our prayers.
  zh: 马特·斯里克在CARM（一个新教护教学网站）上主张马利亚无法听到我们的祈祷。
- start: 1307.377
  end: 1315.879
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He knows that verse from Revelation 5, chapter 8. He says, Well, the saints in heaven offering the prayers doesn't mean they can hear the prayers of people on earth.
  zh: 他也知道《启示录》五章八节那段经文，却说天上的圣徒献上祈祷并不表示他们能听到地上的祈求。
- start: 1316.08
  end: 1321.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, this is a weird objection, because obviously it does.
  zh: 这就很怪异了，因为这段经文其实很显然意味着他们确实能听到。
- start: 1321.481
  end: 1326.643
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Meaning, if they're offering our prayers, how do they not know what our prayers are?
  zh: 也就是说，如果他们将我们的祈求献上，却对我们的祈求内容一无所知，这怎么可能呢？
- start: 1327.065
  end: 1342.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But fine, he says, Even if it were possible this verse could be interpreted to mean the saints in heaven can hear prayers—which I don't assert is legitimate—it still does not mean that Mary can hear the prayers of people all over the world simultaneously, both thought and spoken and in different languages.
  zh: 但好吧，他说，即使这个经文真的可以解读为天上的圣徒能听到祈祷——（他并不主张这是合理的）——这也不代表马利亚能同时听到全世界不同地方、不同语言、不管是默祷还是口祷的请求。
- start: 1342.698
  end: 1347.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I have to admit, I find this objection kind of funny.
  zh: 我得承认，我觉得这个反对理由有点有趣。
- start: 1347.361
  end: 1349.043
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, look, it's a good objection in one way.
  zh: 我是说，从某个角度讲，这是个好问题。
- start: 1349.043
  end: 1350.164
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm glad people are asking this.
  zh: 我很高兴人们在问这些事情。
- start: 1350.164
  end: 1357.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm glad people are thinking about this because it does cause us to think more deeply about heaven, which is always a good thing.
  zh: 我很高兴人们在思考，因为这让我们更深入地看待天上的事，这总是好事。
- start: 1358.18
  end: 1367.282
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it is funny to me—to imagine that even with 2,000 years of time, Mary can't learn Spanish, so she's just like, No hablo.
  zh: 但我还是觉得很好笑——想象一下，纵使经过两千年，马利亚也没学会西班牙语，只能说：「No hablo」(我不懂)，
- start: 1367.282
  end: 1369.242
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don't know what you're praying for.
  zh: 「我不知道你在祈祷什么。」
- start: 1369.242
  end: 1371.723
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't work like that.
  zh: 事情当然不是这样运作的。
- start: 1372.223
  end: 1381.045
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What we have here is a human failure on our part to understand or envision heaven.
  zh: 我们现在碰到的，是人不够理解或想象天国的局限。
- start: 1381.605
  end: 1398.947
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I want to look at two assumptions that Matt Slick and a lot of Protestants—and frankly, a lot of people—have: Number one, that sensation—seeing and hearing and the rest—works basically the same way in heaven that it does on earth.'
  zh: 我想探讨马特·斯里克和许多新教徒——老实说也包括很多人——都带着的两个前提假设：第一，他们认为感官——看、听等——在天上和在地上运作方式基本相同。
- start: 1399.485
  end: 1406.747
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, you hear things with your ears when somebody says them to you, the sound waves hit your ears, the light waves hit your eyes.
  zh: 也就是，你是用耳朵听别人说话，声波传到你的耳朵，光波传到你的眼睛。
- start: 1406.847
  end: 1415.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that if the saints are going to know what we're praying for, they have to either read our lips or listen real closely, maybe press an ear against a cloud to be able to hear us.
  zh: 如果圣徒要知道我们的祈祷，似乎就必须要读我们嘴唇的动作或仔细倾听，也许得把耳朵贴到云朵上才能听见。
- start: 1415.669
  end: 1419.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so if two of us are talking at the same time, it's too loud and they can't understand.
  zh: 所以如果有两个人同时说话，那声音就会太吵，他们就没法听懂。
- start: 1421.01
  end: 1426.964
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is, I think, if you think about it, a bad way of understanding what's going on with the saints.
  zh: 如果仔细想想，这其实是对圣徒境况的一种错误认知。
- start: 1427.085
  end: 1438.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The second is this whole notion that time, which is mediated through the body—which is a physical property—that time works the same way in heaven that it does on earth.
  zh: 第二个假设是，把时间——一种与身体、与物质属性相关的事——看作在天上也跟地上一模一样地流动。
- start: 1438.936
  end: 1447.714
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hopefully, me just mentioning that—hey, these are extremely physical understandings of both sensation and time—are enough to make you say, Wait a second.
  zh: 我希望这样一提——就是说感官和时间都被看作非常物质化的理解——就能让你有所警觉：「等等。」
- start: 1447.714
  end: 1459.257
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This objection seems to suppose that the saint's experience is basically just like being, you know, in a slightly higher place than that's still on earth.
  zh: 这种反对意见似乎假设，圣徒的体验与我们在地上相差无几，只是位置稍微高一点而已。
- start: 1459.617
  end: 1462.018
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that's not a very good understanding.
  zh: 而这并不是什么恰当的理解。
- start: 1462.118
  end: 1464.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Look, I understand the difficulty.
  zh: 我明白这里面的困难。
- start: 1464.799
  end: 1477.403
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The difficulty is that, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9, that when we're talking about heaven, we're talking about what no eye has seen and no ear has heard, nor the heart of man conceived, that God has prepared something beyond our wildest imagination.
  zh: 正如圣保罗在哥林多前书第九章所言，当我们谈到天国时，说的是「眼未曾见，耳未曾闻，人心也未曾想到」的事，神已经为我们预备了超过我们想象的。
- start: 1477.684
  end: 1481.687
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so our imagination inevitably, invariably falls short.
  zh: 因此，我们的想象力难免会不足，无法真正触及。
- start: 1481.687
  end: 1487.271
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is why you've got to bear with me, because I can say this way is wrong.
  zh: 这也是为什么要请大家多包涵，因为我只能说那样的看法是错误的。
- start: 1487.271
  end: 1495.377
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, and that's like it's describing is obviously just a human conception of a basically human place and it is not like a divine place at all.
  zh: 你知道，它所描述的显然只是人对一个非常人间化空间的想法，完全不像一个属天之处。
- start: 1496.348
  end: 1507.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But nevertheless, if you ask me to explain it, my own explanations are going to fall short because no eye has seen, including my eyes, no ear has heard, including my ears, no heart can see, including my heart.
  zh: 然而，就算你要我来解释，我的解释也肯定会不够周全，因为「眼未见，耳未闻，心未想」，这也包括我的眼、我的耳、我的心。
- start: 1508.532
  end: 1521.777
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That we know from Revelation that this is beyond our imagination, so all I can do is point past our concepts towards these heavenly realities.
  zh: 从《启示录》我们知道，这远远超出我们的想象，所以我只能尽力指向某些超越概念的属天实况。
- start: 1522.897
  end: 1532.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'On that way, I would point us to 1 John 3, which says of the Father: See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God, and so we are.'
  zh: 因此，我会带大家看约翰一书第三章，在那里提到圣父：「你们看，父赐给我们是何等的慈爱，使我们得称为神的儿女；我们也正是祂的儿女。」
- start: 1532.717
  end: 1535.938
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
  zh: 「世人所以不认识我们，是因为未曾认识祂。」
- start: 1535.938
  end: 1540.16
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be.
  zh: 「亲爱的，我们现在是神的儿女，将来如何，还未显明。」
- start: 1540.16
  end: 1545.061
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
  zh: 「但我们知道，祂若显现，我们必要像祂，因为必得见祂的真体。」
- start: 1545.201
  end: 1552.804
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, when I read that passage for a long time, I thought that when He appears, we shall be like Him was referring to Jesus appearing.
  zh: 过去我读这段经文时，一直以为这里的「祂若显现，我们必要像祂」是指耶稣降临。
- start: 1553.044
  end: 1556.345
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you read the context, it's referring to the Father appearing.
  zh: 可如果你看上下文，会发现它其实是在说圣父的显现。
- start: 1557.108
  end: 1558.869
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But the Father is not going to come back in glory.
  zh: 然而，圣父并不会以荣光形态再次降临。
- start: 1558.869
  end: 1559.89
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what is this document?
  zh: 那么这段经文到底是什么含义呢？
- start: 1559.89
  end: 1563.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's about beholding God in heaven, transforming us.
  zh: 这里所说的，是在天上仰望神，从而使我们发生转变。
- start: 1564.993
  end: 1569.776
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Seemingly now, I think you could probably—I mean, maybe you'll find someone who says no, maybe that He should be Jesus.
  zh: 我想眼下也许你能找到有人会说：「不，也许这里的祂指的是耶稣。」
- start: 1569.796
  end: 1574.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But in the context of those two verses talking about the love of the Father, it doesn't mention Jesus.
  zh: 可是在那两节经文中提到圣父的慈爱，并没有提到耶稣。
- start: 1574.499
  end: 1580.923
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It talks about us being made children of God and then being transformed into being like God when He appears.
  zh: 那段经文说，我们成为神的儿女，并且在祂显现时会被改变，像祂一样。
- start: 1580.923
  end: 1583.265
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It looks like the Father.
  zh: 看起来是指圣父。
- start: 1584.225
  end: 1585.506
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why do I mention all that?
  zh: 为什么我要提到这些？
- start: 1586.397
  end: 1594.743
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Two reasons: Number one, we know that what the saints are right now enjoying as they behold God makes them godlike.'
  zh: 有两个原因：第一，我们知道圣徒如今在天上凝视神时所享受的，使他们变得近似于神。
- start: 1594.743
  end: 1602.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Remember from the Book of Revelation, twice that John goes down to worship the angel because the angel seemed like a god in comparison.
  zh: 还记得《启示录》里，约翰两次要拜天使，因为那天使相比之下好像神一样。
- start: 1602.529
  end: 1608.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Remember the witch of Endor, when she sees Samuel, thinks she's seeing a god rising from the earth.
  zh: 还要想想隐多珥的女巫，当她看见撒母耳的时候，以为那是有神从地里上来。
- start: 1608.754
  end: 1614.618
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That there's something glorious about the saints, and we need to take that into account.
  zh: 可见圣徒的身上有某种荣耀，我们应该把这一点纳入考虑。
- start: 1614.618
  end: 1617.138
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And so if we're like, Well, they can't understand Spanish...
  zh: 因此如果我们说：「哎呀，他们连西班牙语都不懂……」
- start: 1617.559
  end: 1619.199
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They can't hear two people at the same time.
  zh: 「他们无法同时听到两个人的祈祷。」
- start: 1619.199
  end: 1625.701
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We have really underestimated the glory of the saints that we will be like Him when we see Him as He is.
  zh: 这样就大大低估了圣徒的荣耀，因为当我们得见祂的真体时，就会像祂一样。
- start: 1626.862
  end: 1630.083
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, that still leaves a question.
  zh: 好，这还留下一个问题。
- start: 1630.083
  end: 1635.885
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'This is the second reason I raised that passage: When we see Him, how do the saints see?'
  zh: 这是我提到那段经文的第二个原因：当我们看见祂时，圣徒要如何「看见」？
- start: 1635.885
  end: 1637.325
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: How do the saints hear?
  zh: 圣徒要怎样「听见」？
- start: 1638.223
  end: 1642.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Leave aside for a second the question how do they see or hear us?
  zh: 先不管他们是如何看见或听见我们的问题，
- start: 1642.387
  end: 1647.05
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Let''s ask a more rudimentary question: How do they see or hear God?'
  zh: 让我们先问一个更根本的问题：他们要如何看见或听见神？
- start: 1647.351
  end: 1649.052
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because we're told they do, right?
  zh: 因为我们被告知他们确实能这样，是吧？
- start: 1649.052
  end: 1654.837
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You just heard 1 John 3 says they are going to see Him, but also in the Beatitudes, Jesus says...
  zh: 我们刚刚也引了约翰一书第三章说，他们会得见祂；并且在八福里，耶稣也说……
- start: 1654.837
  end: 1655.438
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why is that a problem?
  zh: 那为什么这是个难题？
- start: 1655.438
  end: 1670.159
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Two reasons: Number one, because John 4 says that God is the Spirit, and 1 Timothy 1 says that the King of Ages, the only God, is invisible.'
  zh: 有两个原因：第一，约翰福音第四章说神是灵，而提摩太前书第一章说那万世之王、独一的神是看不见的。
- start: 1670.159
  end: 1675.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So how is the invisible God visible?
  zh: 那看不见的神怎么又能被看见？
- start: 1676.141
  end: 1677.622
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You say, Well, He reveals Himself.
  zh: 你也许会说：「好吧，祂显现自己。」
- start: 1677.622
  end: 1679.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that misunderstands it.
  zh: 但这样其实有点误解了。
- start: 1679.343
  end: 1684.825
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's not like He's a bodily creature that's just wearing an invisibility cloak.
  zh: 祂并不是一个有形体的受造物，只是披着一件隐形衣。
- start: 1685.046
  end: 1685.946
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God is pure spirit.
  zh: 神是纯粹的灵。
- start: 1685.946
  end: 1689.107
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He is invisible by His nature.
  zh: 从祂的本质来说，祂就是看不见的。
- start: 1689.708
  end: 1695.01
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: His divinity as such is not visible because it's not made of matter.
  zh: 祂的神性之所以不可见，是因为它并非由物质构成。
- start: 1696.209
  end: 1697.49
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hopefully that's clear.
  zh: 希望这样说明能让你明白。
- start: 1698.01
  end: 1701.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: St. Thomas Aquinas makes this argument in the Summa.
  zh: 圣托马斯阿奎那在《神学大全》中就提出过这论点。
- start: 1702.434
  end: 1713.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says God can't be seen with the eyes of the body or perceived with any of the senses, and He can't be seen or perceived with the senses here or in heaven.
  zh: 他说，用肉眼或感官无法看到或感知到神；无论是在今世还是在天上，都不能透过感官直接看见神。
- start: 1713.842
  end: 1722.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is, I think for many people, kind of a surprise because we have this idea that heaven is basically just like earth but like a little better.
  zh: 对许多人来说，这可能相当惊讶，因为我们常以为天堂基本上就像这个世界，只是要好一点。
- start: 1723.712
  end: 1726.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But he says, no, it's not going to be like that.
  zh: 但他指出，不，情况并不会是那样。
- start: 1726.193
  end: 1732.775
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The glorified body is no more able to see God than the unglorified body, because it's not a matter of your lack of glory.
  zh: 他认为，得了荣耀的身体并不比未得荣耀的身体更能看见神，因为这与是否有荣耀无关。
- start: 1732.775
  end: 1733.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not why you can't see God.
  zh: 这并不是你看不见神的原因。
- start: 1733.915
  end: 1736.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason you can't see God is not because you're too sinful.
  zh: 你无法看见神并不是因为你罪孽深重。
- start: 1736.316
  end: 1741.937
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason you can't see God is because God is pure spirit, and the eye picks up light and matter.
  zh: 你无法看见神的理由在于神是纯粹的灵，而肉眼只能感知光与物质。
- start: 1741.937
  end: 1743.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't pick up pure spirit.
  zh: 它无法捕捉纯粹的灵。
- start: 1743.538
  end: 1747.278
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't have spirit eyes right here.
  zh: 你现在并没有专门「看灵」的眼睛。
- start: 1747.839
  end: 1751.24
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we don't behold the divine essence as an object of direct vision.
  zh: 因此，我们无法以直接视觉把神的本质当作可见之物来观望。
- start: 1751.24
  end: 1765.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nevertheless, Aquinas says, well, we will see the glory of God in one way indirectly, because we will behold the glory of God in bodies, especially in the glorified bodies, most especially in the body of Christ.
  zh: 然而，圣托马斯阿奎那说，我们会以某种间接的方式看见神的荣光，因为我们会在人的身体上看见神的荣光，尤其在「荣耀的身体」里，最典型的当然是基督的身体。
- start: 1767.119
  end: 1773.543
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then if we want to talk about how we see God not indirectly but directly, that's true at the eyes of the heart or the intellect.
  zh: 不过，如果我们要讨论如何不是借着间接方式，而是直接「看见」神，那就要谈到「心灵」或「理性之眼」。
- start: 1773.683
  end: 1774.864
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's what's perceiving God.
  zh: 正是这些在感知神。
- start: 1774.864
  end: 1778.686
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The way you come to see an idea—you say, Oh, I see now.
  zh: 就像你领悟一个概念，会说：「哦，我明白了。」
- start: 1778.747
  end: 1781.809
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't mean this idea just floated by.
  zh: 你并不是说这个概念突然飘过来让你看见。
- start: 1781.809
  end: 1782.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I saw God.
  zh: 我看见神了。
- start: 1783.004
  end: 1787.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The idea, even if you saw the idea written down, you're seeing the letters.
  zh: 就算你看到写着这个概念的文字，你看到的也只是文字。
- start: 1787.527
  end: 1789.829
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're not really seeing the idea itself, right?
  zh: 其实你并不是看见「概念本身」。
- start: 1790.289
  end: 1799.316
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, likewise with God, you can see the manifestations of God, like all the glorious things, but it's in that immaterial way of seeing.
  zh: 同理，对于神，你可以看到神显现的种种荣耀，但那是一种超越物质的观看方式。
- start: 1799.316
  end: 1801.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The way you say, Ah, I see.
  zh: 就像你说：「啊，我懂了。」
- start: 1801.717
  end: 1805.48
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's how you see God, but something bigger and better than that.
  zh: 以同样方式「看见」神，只是规模更大、更不可思议罢了。
- start: 1805.48
  end: 1810.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So still break past the human limitations category, but it is the intellect.
  zh: 所以，虽然这已经超越了人的局限，但核心仍是理性。
- start: 1810.223
  end: 1815.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is that kind of spiritual perceptions by which you see God directly.
  zh: 正是那种属灵的感知，使你直接与神相见。
- start: 1815.206
  end: 1823.353
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So in Aquinas, the bodily eyes see the glory of God indirectly in His creation and His saints, most especially in the body of Jesus Christ.
  zh: 因此在圣托马斯阿奎那看来，肉眼是透过神的受造物及其圣徒间接看见神的荣光，尤其借着耶稣基督的身体。
- start: 1824.154
  end: 1829.878
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The spiritual eyes, the eyes of the heart, see God clearly and directly.
  zh: 而属灵的眼睛，也即「心灵之眼」，则能清晰、直接地看见神。
- start: 1830.039
  end: 1841.008
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, that second thing in terms of what that looks like is actually hotly debated by theologians—you know, between the Scotesians and the Thomists and the Palamites.
  zh: 当然，对于这种直接看见神的样式究竟如何，神学家们仍有许多争论——像司各脱派、托马斯派，以及帕拉玛派等。
- start: 1841.275
  end: 1844.335
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're not going to go that deep on this question.
  zh: 我们在这里不会深入到那个层次。
- start: 1844.596
  end: 1857.338
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What matters is what I think everybody can agree on, which is you are not just going to have like glasses or binoculars and with your physical eyes behold the infinite divine essence.
  zh: 最关键的一点是，我想所有人都能同意这样一件事：你不可能只凭肉眼、像戴上眼镜或望远镜一样，就能看透那无限的神的本质。
- start: 1857.338
  end: 1859.758
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not what this is going to be like.
  zh: 这绝不是那么回事。
- start: 1861.218
  end: 1870.92
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that agrees with Scripture in Ephesians 1, where St. Paul prays that we'll have the eyes of our hearts enlightened to know the hopes which we've been called.
  zh: 这与圣经《以弗所书》第1章的说法相符；保罗在那儿祷告，愿我们的心眼被开启，好知道神在我们身上的呼召与盼望。
- start: 1871.525
  end: 1874.366
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the eyes of our heart are what we're dealing with here.
  zh: 因此，我们所谈论的是「心中的眼睛」。
- start: 1874.426
  end: 1875.306
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why do I mention that?
  zh: 我为什么要提到这个？
- start: 1875.306
  end: 1882.428
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because this points towards a different kind of eyes, a different kind of seeing, and also a different kind of light.
  zh: 因为这指向一种完全不同的眼睛、不同的观看，也指向一种不同的光。
- start: 1882.908
  end: 1898.385
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In the Psalms, in Psalm 36, it says this is what's called the light of glory—that's what we see here in glory with the light of glory.
  zh: 在诗篇、比如诗篇第36篇，就谈到所谓「荣光之光」——我们在荣耀中所看见的，正就是这荣光之光。
- start: 1898.385
  end: 1909.17
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like the reason the saints in heaven know what's going on on earth, the reason they know about your prayers is because they're beholding God and beholding God in this way that is kind of hard for us to fathom.
  zh: 这就好比天上的圣徒之所以知道地上之事，之所以晓得你的祷告，就是因为他们在观望神，并以一种我们很难想象的方式在神的荣光中看见一切。
- start: 1909.411
  end: 1914.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But in beholding God, who is truth, this is how they know the world.
  zh: 但正是在仰望那是真理的神之时，他们才得以认识世界。
- start: 1914.113
  end: 1914.573
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They've fixed this.
  zh: 因此他们能明白这一切。
- start: 1914.573
  end: 1916.134
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is how they know what to pray for.
  zh: 这也是他们之所以知道该为哪些事情代祷的原因。
- start: 1916.134
  end: 1918.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is how they know when we ask for their prayers.
  zh: 他们也就知道我们何时请求他们代求。
- start: 1918.955
  end: 1923.258
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this is why it doesn't matter if your prayers are in English or Spanish or Hebrew or Greek.
  zh: 这也就是为什么你的祈祷是英语、西班牙语、希伯来语或希腊语都没有影响。
- start: 1923.258
  end: 1925.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It does not matter make the slightest bit of difference.
  zh: 这丝毫不造成任何差别。
- start: 1925.838
  end: 1937.184
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't matter if you're saying them out loud or really loudly or quietly or silently, because it's still through God that they're experiencing everything that they experience.
  zh: 无论你是大声、低声还是默祷，都不妨碍，因为他们所体验的一切，都是藉着神而来。
- start: 1937.565
  end: 1943.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's in the beholding of God that they're encountering this glory in His light.
  zh: 他们是在仰望神的过程中，于神的光中经历这样的荣耀。
- start: 1943.288
  end: 1944.388
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They see light.
  zh: 他们看见了光。
- start: 1945.289
  end: 1948.051
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that's the first thing.
  zh: 这就是第一点。
- start: 1948.051
  end: 1960.974
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then maybe just to hammer that point home, we can take an earthly example of Pentecost in Acts 2. Remember in Pentecost, people from all over the known world at the time were together in Jerusalem.
  zh: 也许为进一步强化这一点，我们可以看《使徒行传》第二章中五旬节的例子。记得在五旬节时，当时世界各地的人都聚集在耶路撒冷。
- start: 1960.994
  end: 1966.698
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They were able to hear them talking, even though they were all Galileans, each in their own language.
  zh: 他们都能听见门徒说话，虽然那些人都是加利利人，但众人都能用自己各自的语言明白。
- start: 1966.858
  end: 1972.722
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the idea that these linguistic barriers are going to be too much seems to be false.
  zh: 因此，说所谓的语言障碍会过大而无法突破，这显然是错误的。
- start: 1973.783
  end: 1983.767
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That''s what I say: the reason the saints can hear us is because of this light of glory, because of this contemplation of God, and none of this is in a bodily way with eyes and ears.'
  zh: 我想说的是：圣徒之所以能听见我们，正是因为这种来自荣耀之光和对神的沉思，而不需要透过肉身的眼和耳。
- start: 1985.288
  end: 1989.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The next thing—and this is going to be a related thing—is about time.
  zh: 接下来要说的——也与此相关——就是时间的问题。
- start: 1989.669
  end: 1994.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, what if two of us pray at the same time and we have different intentions?
  zh: 你看，如果同时有两个人祈祷，而且他们的意向不同，该怎么办？
- start: 1994.93
  end: 2002.112
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You know, there's a football game and we're both asking the same saint's seed for us—maybe not the best example, but you get the idea.
  zh: 比如有场橄榄球赛，而我们俩都请求同一个圣徒为我们代求——或许这不是最好的例子，但你明白意思。
- start: 2002.112
  end: 2013.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's a battle, say, and we're both praying for the intercession of St. Michael or St. Mary or whoever at the same time.
  zh: 再如，有一场战事，我们同时向圣米迦勒或圣马利亚等圣徒祈祷，期望他们代求。
- start: 2013.68
  end: 2017.261
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, are they able to hear both prayers?
  zh: 那他们能同时听到这两人的祈求吗？
- start: 2018.121
  end: 2027.745
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Yes, but here we have to go deeper into the experience of eternity, the experience of time, and then what's sometimes called simple eternity or aeveternity.
  zh: 答案是能，但我们必须更深入地探讨永恒的经验、时间的经验，以及有时所说的「单纯的永恒」或「永世」。
- start: 2027.745
  end: 2029.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Let's start with eternity.
  zh: 我们先从「永恒」开始谈起。
- start: 2030.217
  end: 2035.96
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In Exodus 3, when Moses is at the burning bush and he asks God, Who should I say sent me?
  zh: 在《出埃及记》第三章，当摩西在荆棘火焰前问神：「我要对百姓说是谁差我来的？」
- start: 2036.041
  end: 2039.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God reveals Himself as I Am Who I Am—one translation.
  zh: 神启示了自己的名为「I Am Who I Am」（有一种翻译如此）。
- start: 2039.323
  end: 2046.407
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I actually prefer I Am Who Am. It's the Y-H-W-H, sometimes translated as Yahweh or even as Jehovah.
  zh: 我个人更喜欢译作「I Am Who Am」。希伯来原文是Y-H-W-H，有时音译为「Yahweh」或「Jehovah」。
- start: 2047.848
  end: 2053.801
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the divine name, and it's a mysterious and magnificent name.
  zh: 这是神的名，一个既神秘又尊崇的名字。
- start: 2053.901
  end: 2061.645
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's sometimes shortened to just I Am. That should remind us of the timelessness of God.
  zh: 有时也简化成「I Am」，这提醒我们神不受时间限制。
- start: 2061.986
  end: 2071.491
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's not I was, I am, and I will be the way we think about God—that He was in the past, He is now, He will be in the future.
  zh: 我们一般会想着神是过去、现在、未来兼有，但对神而言并非如此。
- start: 2071.491
  end: 2072.732
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: To God, He just is.
  zh: 对神而言，祂只是「是」。
- start: 2072.732
  end: 2079.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He's able to say I Am in the past, I Am in the present, I Am in the future simultaneously.
  zh: 祂能够在过去、现在和未来同时说：「我是。」
- start: 2079.702
  end: 2081.463
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the timelessness of God.
  zh: 这是神不受时间限制的特质。
- start: 2081.463
  end: 2083.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the eternity of God.
  zh: 这是神的永恒。
- start: 2083.564
  end: 2088.907
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this is because God is the maker of all time and the maker of all matter.
  zh: 而之所以如此，是因为神创造了一切时间，也创造了所有物质。
- start: 2089.107
  end: 2092.228
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Again, scientifically, we can talk about time as a physical property.
  zh: 从科学的角度来说，我们也能谈到时间是一种物理性质。
- start: 2092.228
  end: 2094.209
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's a relationship between matter.
  zh: 这是物质之间的相互关系。
- start: 2094.71
  end: 2102.453
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So, you know, if you're traveling at nearly the speed of light, your experience of time will be radically different than the experience of time of somebody on Earth.
  zh: 你看，如果你以接近光速的速度在移动，你对时间的体验就会和地球上的人截然不同。
- start: 2102.734
  end: 2116.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For that matter, if you're in a dream where you're not influenced by external bodily realities, you've probably experienced time being radically different before—where maybe it feels like you were there for a week or maybe it's for a few moments, but it was for the course of a night.
  zh: 再者，如果你在梦里，没有受到外在身体环境的影响，你或许经历过与现实完全不同的时间感——在梦里可能感觉过了一周，也可能只是一会儿，可实际上也就是一整夜的时间。
- start: 2117.689
  end: 2120.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Our experience of time is mediated through our bodies.
  zh: 我们对时间的体验都是透过身体来感受的。
- start: 2121.012
  end: 2127.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God, who is the maker of time and of bodies, is not bound by either materiality or time.
  zh: 创造时间和身体的神，不受物质或时间的束缚。
- start: 2129.378
  end: 2130.539
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is really interesting.
  zh: 这点真的很有趣。
- start: 2130.539
  end: 2138.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We talk about Jesus because, as He is also fully man, in taking on humanity He brings Himself into the world of temporality.
  zh: 我们之所以谈到耶稣，是因为他完全成为人，在取了人性时，就把自己带进了时间流动的世界里。
- start: 2138.681
  end: 2142.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we talk about the child Jesus growing and becoming strong, filled with wisdom.
  zh: 因此我们会说到孩童耶稣渐渐长大，日渐强壮，充满智慧。
- start: 2142.763
  end: 2147.565
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's even a sense in which we can talk about Him learning things, which is really kind of fascinating.
  zh: 甚至可以说他在学习各样事物，这其实很令人着迷。
- start: 2147.946
  end: 2152.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But at the same time, in talking about His humanity, we don't want to forget His divinity.
  zh: 然而，当我们谈到他的人性时，也不要忘记他还有神性。
- start: 2152.408
  end: 2162.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So even though as a human child He's growing, there's another sense in which we can say with Hebrews 13:8 that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, forever.
  zh: 所以，虽说他以人子的身份在成长，但我们也能根据希伯来书十三章八节说，耶稣基督昨日今日直到永远不改变。
- start: 2164.005
  end: 2169.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, that's because He's also divine, and as divine, as eternal, He's timeless.
  zh: 这是因为他同样具有神性，而这神性是永恒的，不受时间所限。
- start: 2171.848
  end: 2178.79
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I love the way Jesus drives this home in John 8, when He's asked, You're not yet 50 years old.
  zh: 我很喜欢耶稣在约翰福音第八章里所说的话，当有人质问他：「你还不到五十岁，」
- start: 2179.01
  end: 2180.65
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Have you seen Abraham?
  zh: 「难道你见过亚伯拉罕吗？」
- start: 2180.65
  end: 2191.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Jesus says, I tell you, before Abraham was, I Am. Notice it's that timelessness of the I Am. It's not before Abraham was, I was.
  zh: 耶稣回答：「我实实在在告诉你们，还没有亚伯拉罕，就有了我『I Am』。」这里的关键是「I Am」的超越时间性，他并没有说「亚伯拉罕还没出生时，我就已经存在了」，而是「I Am」。
- start: 2191.434
  end: 2192.114
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nope.
  zh: 并不是那样。
- start: 2192.882
  end: 2205.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I Am. He is even now as He says these words in John 8. As we talk about these words 2,000 years later, He is even now also pre-existing Abraham.
  zh: 「I Am」。当他在约翰福音第八章说这话时，他就在当下。即便我们距离那时已两千年，他依然超越亚伯拉罕而先在。
- start: 2205.927
  end: 2209.389
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All of these moments are simultaneously present to Him.
  zh: 对他来说，所有这些时刻都在同一时间面前展现。
- start: 2209.389
  end: 2228.133
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is a very hard thing for us to wrap our minds around, but that's what He's saying here in John 8. Boethius, a philosopher, talks about this in 523 in his famous work on the Consolation of Philosophy, that eternity is the possession of endless life, whole and perfect at a single moment.
  zh: 我们很难真正理解这一点，但耶稣在约翰福音第八章就是这么说的。523年，哲学家波爱修斯曾在他著名的《哲学的安慰》里讨论到，永恒指的是同时拥有无尽的生命，完全且完美地聚于同一刻。
- start: 2228.594
  end: 2234.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When we talk about eternity, we don't just mean that God is really, really old and won't ever die.
  zh: 我们谈到「永恒」时，并不是说神只是非常非常古老、永不会死而已。
- start: 2234.531
  end: 2239.113
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It certainly means He has no beginning and has no end, but it actually means much more than that.
  zh: 虽然确实包含「祂无始无终」的意思，但远不止于此。
- start: 2239.113
  end: 2244.135
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because you can imagine something with no beginning and no end still traveling through time in some way.
  zh: 因为你可以想象某个东西虽然无始无终，却还是以某种方式在时间中前行。
- start: 2244.135
  end: 2245.556
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not what we mean with God.
  zh: 而我们对神的理解并不是如此。
- start: 2245.556
  end: 2254.073
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We mean that He is outside of time because He's the author of time, so that all of these parts are simultaneously present to God.
  zh: 我们是说祂超越时间，因为祂是时间的创造者，所有时区、时刻对祂而言都可同时地存在。
- start: 2254.113
  end: 2262.817
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He can't grow and change or have a mood swing or any of these things because that's contrary to what it is for Him to be eternal.
  zh: 祂不会成长、变化，或者情绪波动，因为这些与「永恒」的本质相违背。
- start: 2264.257
  end: 2268.719
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So contrast this with the experience of time.
  zh: 接着把这和我们的时间体验作对比。
- start: 2268.719
  end: 2274.422
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you've got eternity over here with God, you've got temporality—the experience of time—with us.
  zh: 神在永恒里，而我们在人间的时间性里。
- start: 2275.602
  end: 2278.904
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: With us, tomorrow we don't yet grasp.
  zh: 对我们而言，明天尚未到来，我们无法明了。
- start: 2278.944
  end: 2284.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We've already forgotten yesterday, but not just far-off future or the far past of our own lives.
  zh: 我们也已经忘记昨天，而这不仅是指遥远的未来或久远的过去，
- start: 2284.489
  end: 2290.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Even if you take today, probably part of the morning you've forgotten about.
  zh: 即使拿今天来说，你或许已经忘了清晨发生的部分事。
- start: 2290.731
  end: 2293.232
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You probably don't know exactly what's going to happen tonight.
  zh: 你可能也不了解今晚会发生什么事。
- start: 2293.673
  end: 2297.394
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'We can get even closer and say this very moment: you don''t know what I''m going to say.'
  zh: 我们还能说得更具体点：就此时此刻来说，你也不知道我接下来要讲什么。
- start: 2297.394
  end: 2299.695
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I could say something really crazy after this.
  zh: 我也许接下来就会说出什么很疯狂的话。
- start: 2301.216
  end: 2303.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I might have already forgotten the last point I made.
  zh: 我可能已经忘记了我刚才提到的最后一点。
- start: 2304.317
  end: 2308.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The past and the future we don't possess.
  zh: 过去与未来都不在我们的掌握之中。
- start: 2309.159
  end: 2314.142
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We only possess a fleeting moment called now, the present.
  zh: 我们只拥有那转瞬即逝的片刻，也就是「现在」这一瞬。
- start: 2314.443
  end: 2317.865
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And this moment is infinitesimally small.
  zh: 而且这个时刻小到不可分割。
- start: 2318.286
  end: 2320.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: By the time you notice it, it's already behind you.
  zh: 当你意识到它时，它已经成为过去了。
- start: 2320.969
  end: 2322.35
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't possess it anymore.
  zh: 你已不再拥有它。
- start: 2322.35
  end: 2323.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's already fading away.
  zh: 它已经渐渐逝去了。
- start: 2324.232
  end: 2326.554
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's the experience of temporality.
  zh: 这就是时间性的体验。
- start: 2326.554
  end: 2336.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'This is something worth pondering: with us, we have this infinitely small point of time that we don''t even possess a full second unbroken, right?'
  zh: 有一件事值得思考：对于我们而言，现在这点时间是无限微小的，我们甚至无法完整地拥有一整秒，对吧？
- start: 2336.908
  end: 2339.229
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like you're not in all of the second at the same time.
  zh: 就好比你无法在同一瞬间处于这一整秒的每个片刻里。
- start: 2339.229
  end: 2339.95
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I hope this is clear.
  zh: 我希望这样说够清楚。
- start: 2339.95
  end: 2342.571
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It sounds like I'm on drugs, but I'm not.
  zh: 听起来好像我在胡言乱语，但我没有。
- start: 2343.032
  end: 2347.755
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'm trying to explain something very hard.
  zh: 我是在努力解释一件非常难以表达的事情。
- start: 2347.755
  end: 2352.798
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When you say the present moment, you don't get like an entire minute that you're just simultaneously present for.
  zh: 当你说「此刻」时，你并不会得到一整分钟在同一时点里拥有它。
- start: 2352.899
  end: 2356.941
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You could have said something really dumb 15 seconds ago you wish you could take back.
  zh: 也许在十五秒前你说了一句蠢话，希望能够收回。
- start: 2358.066
  end: 2360.508
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So how much time is actually in the present moment?
  zh: 那么「此刻」究竟有多少时间？
- start: 2360.508
  end: 2363.31
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's inseparably, indistinguishably small.
  zh: 它小得无法分割，也难以分辨。
- start: 2363.31
  end: 2366.191
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It could not be any smaller.
  zh: 再小也小不下去了。
- start: 2367.112
  end: 2368.653
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's infinitely small.
  zh: 它几乎是无限地微小。
- start: 2368.653
  end: 2371.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's how long we have in the now.
  zh: 这就是我们对「现在」所拥有的时间。
- start: 2372.576
  end: 2375.738
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In contrast, what God has is the exact opposite of that.
  zh: 与此相对，神所拥有的却恰恰相反。
- start: 2375.738
  end: 2381.042
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He has infinite time and space in front of Him.
  zh: 在祂面前有无限的时间与空间。
- start: 2381.042
  end: 2385.118
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's no limit to what is His now.
  zh: 对祂来说，「现在」没有边界。
- start: 2385.219
  end: 2386.44
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Our now couldn't be smaller.
  zh: 我们的现在再也无法更小了。
- start: 2386.44
  end: 2387.561
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: His now couldn't be bigger.
  zh: 而祂的现在也无法更大。
- start: 2387.561
  end: 2389.141
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I hope that's clear.
  zh: 我希望这样说够清楚。
- start: 2391.364
  end: 2403.894
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Augustine talks about this: if you take this idea seriously of God having everything simultaneously present before Him, it explains why it means the same thing to say that God is incorruptible, unchangeable, eternal, immortal.'
  zh: 奥古斯丁讨论过这点：如果你认真思考神同时拥有一切当下这种概念，就会明白，称神为不朽、不变、永恒、不死在本质上说的都是同一个事实。
- start: 2403.894
  end: 2406.716
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All of those are pointing to the same timeless reality.
  zh: 所有这些形容都指向同一超越时间的真相。
- start: 2406.716
  end: 2408.598
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Everything is present to Him.
  zh: 对祂来讲，一切都同时存在于眼前。
- start: 2408.598
  end: 2410.059
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So He's not on a hero's journey, right?
  zh: 因此祂并不在什么英雄旅程当中，是吧？
- start: 2410.059
  end: 2415.274
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like, God isn't saying, Well, now I feel like I've really learned a lot from creating humans.
  zh: 意思是说，神并不会说：「嗯，如今我觉得我从创造人这件事上学到了很多。」
- start: 2415.774
  end: 2442.578
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I get there are times where Scripture speaks to God in that very human kind of language, but we should also be able to understand in that that these are metaphors trying to explain something that is kind of beyond our frame of reference—which is that God is infinite, He's eternal, and therefore He's unchanging and unchangeable because there's no new information He's going to get tomorrow that's going to cause a personality change in Him.
  zh: 我明白，某些时候经文会用非常人性化的语言去描述神，但我们也需要明白，那些只是比喻手法，用来解释超越我们理解范围的事——即神是无限的、永恒的，所以祂不改变，也不会被改变，因为祂不可能在明天收到什么新资讯，从而在性情上发生变化。
- start: 2442.578
  end: 2443.998
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hopefully that makes sense.
  zh: 希望这能说得通。
- start: 2444.479
  end: 2446.859
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And if it did, he wouldn't be God, right?
  zh: 如果真那样的话，他就不是神了，对吗？
- start: 2446.859
  end: 2450.22
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like, if he was getting better or worse, he wouldn't be God.
  zh: 如果神能变好或变坏，那就说明他并非真正的神。
- start: 2451.261
  end: 2457.243
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So as Augustine says, He didn't receive wisdom; He is wisdom.
  zh: 正如奥古斯丁所说：「他并不是获得了智慧；他本身就是智慧。」
- start: 2458.083
  end: 2469.471
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In a City of God, like Boethius, Augustine is going to contrast this with our experience of time—that for us, the future isn't yet present now, and the past was.
  zh: 在《上帝之城》中，奥古斯丁像波爱修斯一样，把这个与我们对时间的体验相对照——对我们来说，未来尚未到来，而过去已成为过去。
- start: 2469.471
  end: 2481.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But to God, all of these moments and all moments are simultaneously present in what Augustine calls His stable and eternal presence—that there is only the now of God.
  zh: 但对神而言，所有时刻、一切时间都同时呈现在奥古斯丁所说的「稳固且永恒的当下」里——神只有「现在」。
- start: 2483.437
  end: 2485.177
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I Am Who Am means just this.
  zh: 「I Am Who Am」的含意就是如此。
- start: 2486.038
  end: 2496.553
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I know I'm talking a lot about eternity, but we have to have this concept of contrasting our experience of time, God's experience of eternity, to then ask, Well, what then is...
  zh: 我知道我花了很多时间谈论永恒，但我们必须先确立这个概念，将我们对时间的体验与神的永恒对比，然后再来问：「那么……」
- start: 2496.553
  end: 2504.379
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: About the saints and angels, because we know from Ecclesiastes that God has put eternity into man's mind, but we're never going to be eternal like God.
  zh: 那圣徒与天使又如何呢？因为我们从《传道书》得知，神将永恒放在人心里，但我们永远不会像神那样永恒。
- start: 2504.379
  end: 2507.361
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're never going to be unbeginning, right?
  zh: 我们永远不会是无始的，对吧？
- start: 2507.361
  end: 2515.167
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We are sometimes described as eternal by which we just mean everlasting—you know, lasting forever.
  zh: 有时我们被描述为「永恒」，其实只是在说存留到永远，你明白的，就是不会终止。
- start: 2515.487
  end: 2517.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But that's only in one direction, right?
  zh: 但那只是单向的，对吧？
- start: 2517.309
  end: 2520.852
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like we go forward, we have a limited path.
  zh: 我们会向前推进，但我们有一个有限的开端。
- start: 2520.852
  end: 2524.734
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We didn't always exist, but we will exist forever.
  zh: 我们并非永远都已存在，但我们会一直存在到永远。
- start: 2524.734
  end: 2530.561
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So we are, but we're not eternal in the way God is where everything is simultaneously present.
  zh: 因此，我们存留到永远，却不像神那样拥有所有时刻同时同在的状态。
- start: 2531.822
  end: 2534.023
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So what is the experience of saints and angels?
  zh: 那么，圣徒与天使所经历的是什么呢？
- start: 2534.143
  end: 2548.431
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Aquinas answers this about the angels, and it''s actually clearer from the biblical evidence about the angels and it''s clear in this way: With the angels, there''s one sense in which they''re like God and being unchanging as regards their nature.'
  zh: 圣托马斯阿奎那对天使做了回答，而圣经中有关天使的记载也更加清晰：就某种意义而言，天使的本性与神相似，不会改变。
- start: 2548.431
  end: 2549.851
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They don't get older, right?
  zh: 他们不会变老，对吗？
- start: 2549.851
  end: 2551.772
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like you don't have older and younger angels.
  zh: 不会有年长或年轻的天使之分。
- start: 2551.772
  end: 2555.294
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't have angels having like a bar mitzvah in heaven.
  zh: 在天上也不会有什么天使要举行成人礼。
- start: 2556.003
  end: 2557.784
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't have angels learning to drive.
  zh: 也不会有天使学开车之类的。
- start: 2557.784
  end: 2561.125
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's none of this process of growth and aging.
  zh: 他们没有成长或衰老的过程。
- start: 2561.125
  end: 2562.245
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not metabolizing.
  zh: 他们不会进行代谢。
- start: 2562.245
  end: 2564.926
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not eating and drinking and going through bodily changes.
  zh: 他们不需要吃喝或经历身体上的转变。
- start: 2564.926
  end: 2565.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's none of that.
  zh: 这些都不存在于天使当中。
- start: 2565.547
  end: 2566.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're purely spiritual.
  zh: 他们是纯粹的灵。
- start: 2567.587
  end: 2569.408
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So in that sense, they're unchanging.
  zh: 因此，在那方面他们是不变的。
- start: 2570.468
  end: 2576.25
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But on the other hand, they are changing, or changeable, as regards choice.
  zh: 但另一方面，在意志选择上，他们却是可以改变的。
- start: 2576.25
  end: 2576.771
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And how do we know that?
  zh: 我们怎么知道呢？
- start: 2576.771
  end: 2579.992
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because the demons rebelled against God.
  zh: 因为有的天使堕落成魔鬼，背叛了神。
- start: 2580.152
  end: 2583.633
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They had a before and after—before they were in heaven, after they were in hell.
  zh: 他们有过「之前」与「之后」——之前在天上，之后在地狱。
- start: 2584.847
  end: 2593.934
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So they're like God in one sense, unlike us; like us in another sense, unlike God in terms of changeability.
  zh: 所以，就「不受物质影响」方面而言，他们与神相似，而与我们不同；但就「可能改变」方面而言，他们又像我们，而不像神。
- start: 2593.934
  end: 2595.535
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So there's somewhere in between.
  zh: 他们就处在两者之间的某个位置。
- start: 2595.675
  end: 2602.46
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Aquinas refers to this as aeveternity or simple eternity, but it's this middle place between time and eternity.
  zh: 阿奎那称之为「永世」或「单纯的永恒」，这正是介于时间和永恒之间的一种状态。
- start: 2603.461
  end: 2605.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: See, it might take me a while to get here because that is a weird thing.
  zh: 你看，我花了点时间才讲到这里，因为听上去这确实有点奇怪。
- start: 2605.563
  end: 2611.467
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you just say, Oh yeah, you know, the middle place between time and eternity, that sounds really strange, really baffling.
  zh: 如果你只是随口说：「哦，是啊，介于时间和永恒之间的某个中间状态，」那听起来确实很陌生，也很令人费解。
- start: 2611.829
  end: 2626.056
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But if you understand eternity is changelessness, temporality is this world of constant, perpetual, momentary change, what the angels—and it seems clear enough—the saints experience is something in between those two.
  zh: 但是，如果你明白永恒意味着不变，而时间性意味着我们所处的世界一直处在不断的、持续的、转瞬的变动之中，那么天使——以及显而易见，圣徒——所经历的，就介于这两者之间。
- start: 2626.737
  end: 2628.918
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The saints in heaven, they're not getting older.
  zh: 天上的圣徒并不会变老。
- start: 2629.679
  end: 2633.02
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They've encountered a kind of timelessness.
  zh: 他们经历了一种超越时间的状态。
- start: 2633.481
  end: 2644.131
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But at the same time, there's still some sense in which they're like us and not like God in terms of choice, action, agency, all of this stuff.
  zh: 但同时，在抉择、行动、意志等方面，他们仍和我们有相似之处，而并非完全像神。
- start: 2644.211
  end: 2648.173
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Whereas with God, the present—like He's not changing His mind.
  zh: 然而，对神而言，祂的当下不存在意志改变的问题。
- start: 2648.173
  end: 2649.253
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's none of that.
  zh: 这些都不会发生在神身上。
- start: 2650.213
  end: 2651.754
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I hope that's clear.
  zh: 我希望这样讲能说明白。
- start: 2651.754
  end: 2658.236
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But it means that the question of like, These two things happen simultaneously on earth, so doesn't that mean Mary can't hear them at the same time?
  zh: 但这也意味着，如果有人问：「在地上有两件事同时发生，那马利亚岂不是不能同时听见两个祈祷吗？」
- start: 2658.236
  end: 2661.057
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't really work as an objection.
  zh: 这其实并不构成真正的反对理由。
- start: 2661.357
  end: 2668.284
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'If that''s too philosophical, if that''s too highfalutin, I would say two things: Number one, well, you''re asking a highfalutin question.'
  zh: 如果你觉得这太哲学化，太空泛，我想说两点：第一，你本身就提出了一个很抽象的问题。
- start: 2668.284
  end: 2676.529
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you're not content to take the biblical evidence that the saints are in heaven praying and you want to know how is that possible, now you're starting to ask philosophical questions.
  zh: 如果你不满足于圣经对圣徒在天上代祷的证据，硬要追问它是怎么实现的，你就已经进入哲学层面的提问了。
- start: 2676.529
  end: 2678.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You should expect philosophical answers.
  zh: 你就该预期会得到哲学性的回答。
- start: 2679.191
  end: 2685.315
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Second, if you want just like a clear image, you can just ask yourself this: Who''s more powerful, the saints or Satan?'
  zh: 第二，如果你想要一个更直观的图景，你可以先问自己：谁更有力量，圣徒还是撒但？
- start: 2685.696
  end: 2686.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why have I asked this?
  zh: 我为什么要这样问？
- start: 2687.257
  end: 2693.541
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because 1 Corinthians 6 tells us that we're to judge angels, which suggests that there's a hierarchy.
  zh: 因为哥林多前书第六章告诉我们，将来我们要审判天使，这就暗示天上有个等次。
- start: 2698.235
  end: 2712.464
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We know the angels are superior to the demons, but we also know the angels are ministering spirits sent forth to serve on earth, and the demons are prowling about like roaring lions seeking someone to devour.
  zh: 我们知道天使比魔鬼更有能力，也知道天使是奉差遣到地上服事的灵，而魔鬼像吼叫的狮子遍地游行，寻找可吞吃的人。
- start: 2712.464
  end: 2716.787
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's what St. Peter tells us about the devil himself.
  zh: 这是圣彼得对魔鬼本身的形容。
- start: 2717.948
  end: 2722.511
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In fact, the Book of Revelation describes Satan as the deceiver of the whole world.
  zh: 事实上，《启示录》形容撒但是那迷惑普天下的。
- start: 2722.511
  end: 2724.172
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Revelation 12, verse 9 says...
  zh: 《启示录》十二章第9节这样说……
- start: 2725.287
  end: 2733.489
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So I find that many Protestants have, on some level, a very strange and kind of confused vision of spiritual realities.
  zh: 所以我发现很多新教徒在某种程度上对属灵世界有一种非常奇怪、相当混乱的想象。
- start: 2733.489
  end: 2748.572
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I'd say this—and this isn't everybody—but if you can imagine Sam and Bob, and Sam says, I'm going to give my soul to the devil, okay, they're ready to say the devil hears that.
  zh: 我要说的并不适用于所有人，但打一比方：假设有山姆和鲍勃两人，山姆说：「我要把我的灵魂交给魔鬼，」结果大多数人会认定魔鬼听得到这种话。
- start: 2748.572
  end: 2751.893
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He's going to show up, he's going to try to make a deal.
  zh: 他就会现身，想要和你交易一番。
- start: 2752.273
  end: 2757.741
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then Bob says, I'm going to give my soul to Jesus, and I ask Mary to pray for me.
  zh: 但是若鲍勃说：「我要把我的灵魂交给耶稣，并请马利亚为我祈祷，」
- start: 2758.962
  end: 2765.827
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Then these same Protestants will say, Well, yeah, the devil can hear you, but Mary can't. And in fact, in asking Mary to pray for you, the devil is going to also show up over there.
  zh: 这类新教徒反而会说：「噢，是啊，魔鬼能听到你，但马利亚听不到。事实上，你向马利亚求代祷时，魔鬼也会出现。」
- start: 2766.488
  end: 2767.269
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么会这样？
- start: 2768.73
  end: 2780.76
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, if the idea is that the glorified saints are more powerful than the angels, who are more powerful than the demons, why can the devil do a bunch of stuff all over the world and the saints and angels can't? What logic is there in any of that?
  zh: 我的意思是，如果我们相信光荣的圣徒比天使更有力量，而天使又比魔鬼更强，那为什么魔鬼能在世界各地四处活动，而圣徒和天使就不行？这其中到底有什么逻辑？
- start: 2780.76
  end: 2787.931
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That vision of the spiritual realm is so topsy-turvy that it looks like the devil is more powerful than anybody else.
  zh: 那样的属灵观实在本末倒置，看起来好像魔鬼比任何存在都更有能力。
- start: 2788.552
  end: 2792.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That is a profoundly unbiblical kind of idea.
  zh: 但那是与圣经完全背道而驰的想法。
- start: 2792.094
  end: 2798.217
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Go back to the Book of Revelation where St. Michael, one of the angels, kicks them out of heaven.
  zh: 看看《启示录》，是天使之一的圣弥额尔把魔鬼赶出了天庭。
- start: 2798.738
  end: 2806.202
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The angels are more powerful than the demons, and the saints are given this position where they can even judge the angels.
  zh: 天使比魔鬼更加强大，而圣徒更被赋予能审判天使的地位。
- start: 2806.351
  end: 2818.435
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if we've lost sight of that, if we've lost sight of how glorious and powerful the saints and angels in heaven are, then we're left with a disturbing and evil vision of the spiritual realm that we should seek to amend.
  zh: 所以，如果我们忽视了这点，忽视了天上圣徒和天使何等荣耀、何等有能力，那我们就只剩一种扭曲且可怕的属灵观，需要我们去纠正了。
- start: 2819.276
  end: 2841.669
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: A parting thought on this—I know we've been going through some deep water, so maybe you find yourself in a place of agnosticism, saying, Okay, maybe my conception of heaven has been too human and too bodily and hasn't experienced the reality of the light of glory or the way that in seeing God they're able to see and hear everything they need to that's going on here below.
  zh: 最后再分享一个想法——我知道我们刚才讨论得相当深入，也许你此刻还处于一种不确定的状态，想着：「好吧，或许我对天堂的想象太过人性化、太过局限于身体，没有考虑到那种荣耀之光的真实，或者说，没有考虑到他们在仰望神时能够看见并听见下面世界里一切必要信息的方式。」
- start: 2843.05
  end: 2845.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But I still am not really sure about it.
  zh: 但我依然无法完全确定。
- start: 2845.531
  end: 2848.552
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And okay, let's take Beth's case here.
  zh: 那好，我们就以贝丝的情况为例。
- start: 2849.072
  end: 2852.674
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We can't prove to a scientific certainty, right, that they can hear you.
  zh: 我们无法用科学的方式达到百分之百的确定，对吧？无法证明他们一定能听见你。
- start: 2852.674
  end: 2860.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's not just some Bible verse that says, Here's how heaven works and here's how the angels work and are able to hear you or Here's how the saints can hear you.
  zh: 也没有确切的经文直接告诉你：「天堂就是这样运作的，天使就是这样工作、这样听你祈祷的」或「圣徒就是这样听见你的祈祷的」。
- start: 2860.684
  end: 2862.124
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Well, imagine you fall into a pit.
  zh: 好，假设你掉进了一个坑里。
- start: 2862.124
  end: 2868.708
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're out with your friends and you get separated from them, and you fall down a well.
  zh: 你跟朋友在外面，结果跟他们走散，掉进了井里。
- start: 2870.629
  end: 2874.531
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're thinking, Well, well, well, I am at the bottom of this well.
  zh: 你在心里想着：「糟了、糟了、糟了，我现在在这口井的最底下。」
- start: 2875.612
  end: 2876.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I am stuck.
  zh: 我被困住了。
- start: 2876.852
  end: 2877.953
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I need help.
  zh: 我需要帮助。
- start: 2879.394
  end: 2886.337
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Would you take seriously the idea, Maybe I shouldn't call my friends for help because I don't know 100% sure they can hear me?
  zh: 你会不会认真考虑：「或许我不该喊朋友来救我，因为我无法百分之一百确定他们能听见」这样的念头？
- start: 2886.698
  end: 2887.838
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Probably not.
  zh: 大概不会吧。
- start: 2888.513
  end: 2892.955
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You'd probably call for their help because what have you got to lose?
  zh: 你很可能会大声求救，因为你也没什么好损失的。
- start: 2893.295
  end: 2897.137
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So likewise spiritually, of course you should be praying to God directly.
  zh: 同样地，在属灵层面，你当然应该直接向神祈祷。
- start: 2897.137
  end: 2900.099
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You should go to Jesus with your prayers as your mediator.
  zh: 你应该把祈祷带到耶稣面前，让祂成为你的中保。
- start: 2900.099
  end: 2902.499
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But you're also told to go to other people.
  zh: 但你也被教导要去找其他人。
- start: 2902.8
  end: 2905.321
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If I go to you and say, Hey, can you pray for me for this?
  zh: 如果我来到你面前，说：「嘿，你能为我这件事祈祷吗？」
- start: 2905.321
  end: 2909.663
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don't know to a scientific certainty you're not going to immediately forget to pray for me.
  zh: 我也没法用科学的严谨度确保你不会立马忘掉要为我祷告。
- start: 2910.423
  end: 2913.525
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not an argument against me going to you, though, right?
  zh: 但这并不足以成为我不来找你祈求代祷的理由，对吧？
- start: 2913.525
  end: 2932.786
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So in other words, even if this was a much stronger argument than it really is—and it seems to me it's not a very strong argument—even if it was a much stronger argument about we don't know how many of these prayers are actually getting through on the fax machine in heaven, it still wouldn't really be an argument against praying to Mary and the saints.
  zh: 换句话说，即便这个反对意见比实际更有力度——在我看来其实并不算有力——即便你对「我们不知道在天堂的『传真机』那里收到多少祈祷」这一点质疑，也不足以构成反对向马利亚和圣徒祈求的理由。
- start: 2932.966
  end: 2937.707
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because we do all sorts of things where we don't know 100% they're going to be successful, including spiritually.
  zh: 因为我们在很多事上都无法保证百分百成功，这也包括属灵的层面。
- start: 2937.707
  end: 2942.547
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Every time you go and ask another person, maybe they're deeply mired in sin and God's not going to hear their prayer.
  zh: 每次你去请求另一个人为你代祷，也许那人正深陷罪中，神也不会听他的祷告。
- start: 2942.927
  end: 2943.768
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You don't know that.
  zh: 你并不知道这些。
- start: 2943.768
  end: 2944.788
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Who cares?
  zh: 又有什么关系呢？
- start: 2944.788
  end: 2946.308
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's not the relevant question.
  zh: 这并不是真正攸关的问题。
- start: 2946.929
  end: 2950.672
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You even say, Maybe instead of praying for me, they're going to ask a demon to curse me.
  zh: 你甚至可以说：「或者他不但不会为我祈祷，反倒喊个邪灵来诅咒我。」
- start: 2950.672
  end: 2951.693
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I shouldn't go and talk?
  zh: 「所以我就不该开口去寻求帮助吗？」
- start: 2951.693
  end: 2952.434
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You just say no.
  zh: 答案当然是否定的。
- start: 2952.434
  end: 2954.235
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These are irrational fears.
  zh: 这些都是不合理的担心。
- start: 2955.236
  end: 2965.444
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is not a rational reason not to do the thing you're told, which is make intercession for all men (1 Timothy 2:1). And we see St. Paul asking other people for his prayers.
  zh: 这并不是停止做你该做之事的合理理由——你本当为众人代求（提摩太前书2:1），而我们也看到保罗会请求别人为他祈祷。
- start: 2965.444
  end: 2972.149
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He doesn't know whether they're going to honor that request or not, but the model we have from Scripture is do it anyway.
  zh: 他也无法确定对方会不会真的为他祈祷，但从圣经得到的榜样就是：无论怎样都去做。
- start: 2972.85
  end: 2982.566
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So all that's to say, even if you're unconvinced of how the saints and angels hear you—because understandably it's a confusing area—don't let that be a hindrance to you.
  zh: 所以，总的来说，即使你对圣徒和天使如何听到你的祈祷仍存疑——这能理解，因为这确实让人困惑——也别因此受阻。
- start: 2983.347
  end: 2991.37
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: All right, that leads to the last objection, because the one thing I can imagine someone saying in response is, Well, maybe it's not just useless...
  zh: 好的，那就引出最后一个反对意见，因为我能想象有人会说：「嗯，也许这并非只是毫无用处……」
- start: 2991.37
  end: 2993.171
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Maybe it's actually dangerous.
  zh: 也许这实际上很危险。
- start: 2993.171
  end: 3001.174
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because if you've fallen into a well and you call for help, and like demons show up to torment you, then yeah, you probably wouldn't want to call for help.
  zh: 因为如果你掉进井里呼救，结果出现的竟然是邪灵来折磨你，那确实会让你不想呼救。
- start: 3002.699
  end: 3004.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So is that a reasonable fear?
  zh: 那么，这会是一个合理的恐惧吗？
- start: 3004.72
  end: 3007.36
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that a reasonable worry?
  zh: 这是一个合理的担忧吗？
- start: 3009.281
  end: 3011.942
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Here's the argument from Jeff Laird.
  zh: 下面是杰夫·莱尔德所提出的论点。
- start: 3011.942
  end: 3014.563
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now Jeff Laird works for a Protestant ministry called That.
  zh: 杰夫·莱尔德在一个名为「That」的新教机构任职。
- start: 3014.943
  end: 3025.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is actually written for like the teen apologetics website, but it's a guy who works for a ministry I have heard of, even though I'm not familiar with this outreach.
  zh: 这篇文章其实是写给一个青少年护教学网站的，他在那个我有所耳闻但并不十分熟悉的机构里工作。
- start: 3025.806
  end: 3027.527
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And I like the way he puts it.
  zh: 而我挺喜欢他表达的方式。
- start: 3027.627
  end: 3031.808
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mean, I disagree with everything he's about to say, but it's very clear how he says it.
  zh: 当然，我不同意他接下来要说的一切，但他说明得很清楚。
- start: 3032.088
  end: 3041.957
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'He says God makes it clear that praying to the dead is a serious sin, and then he gives three passages: Deuteronomy 18, 1 Samuel 28, 1 Chronicles 10. We''ll look at all three of those.'
  zh: 他说神已经清楚表明，向亡者祈祷是严重的罪，然后他列出三处经文：申命记第18章，撒母耳记上第28章，历代志上第10章。我们会一一来看。
- start: 3042.739
  end: 3044.4
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then he makes three claims.
  zh: 随后他提出三个主张。
- start: 3044.621
  end: 3051.648
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'He says any attempt to communicate with a spiritual entity other than God Himself does three things: Number one, it ignores the direct command from God.'
  zh: 他认为，凡是试图与除了神以外的灵体沟通的行为，都会带来三重后果：第一，无视神的直接命令。
- start: 3051.648
  end: 3056.452
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number two, it bypasses the best possible person to pray to in the first place—God Himself.
  zh: 第二，撇开真正最适合祈祷的对象——神自己。
- start: 3056.542
  end: 3062.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number three, it opens a channel of communication with demons who hate and defy God and would love nothing more than to hurt you.
  zh: 第三，它为仇恨神、悖逆神、并渴望伤害你的邪灵打开了一条沟通管道。
- start: 3063.805
  end: 3069.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, if you've read your Bible, I hope you know none of what you just heard is true.
  zh: 如果你读过圣经，我希望你明白，他所说的这些并不正确。
- start: 3069.268
  end: 3076.871
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If any attempt to communicate with the spiritual entity does those three things, then Mary should have been rebuked for talking to the Angel Gabriel.
  zh: 如果任何与灵界沟通的尝试都会产生那三重后果，那么马利亚因为与天使加百列对话，就应该被斥责。
- start: 3077.511
  end: 3082.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because when he says, Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you, she doesn't say Get back.
  zh: 因为当他说：「蒙大恩的女子，你好，主和你同在」，马利亚并没有说：「走开！」
- start: 3082.213
  end: 3083.934
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She talks to the Angel Gabriel.
  zh: 她反而与天使加百列交谈。
- start: 3084.034
  end: 3086.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: She communicates with the spiritual entity, an angel.
  zh: 她与这灵界存有，也就是一位天使，进行了沟通。
- start: 3086.94
  end: 3087.66
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So does Zacharias.
  zh: 撒迦利亚也是如此。
- start: 3087.66
  end: 3088.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So does Abraham.
  zh: 亚伯拉罕也一样。
- start: 3088.781
  end: 3092.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Abraham doesn't even see with the sacrifice of Abraham and Isaac.
  zh: 亚伯拉罕在献以撒的事上，甚至都没能亲眼见到什么显然的景象。
- start: 3092.422
  end: 3095.223
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Abraham is talking to an angel he can't even see in heaven.
  zh: 他与他在天上无法看见的天使对话。
- start: 3097.724
  end: 3103.185
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the idea that you can't communicate with spiritual entities is completely, profoundly unbiblical.
  zh: 所以，说你无法与灵体交流的看法，完全违背圣经。
- start: 3103.185
  end: 3107.987
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And it's often these Protestants who invent a new rule that you can speak to them, but only if they talk first.
  zh: 而且往往是这些新教徒杜撰了一个新的规则，说你可以跟天使或灵界对话，但必须对方先开口。
- start: 3107.987
  end: 3110.088
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's completely a made-up rule.
  zh: 可这完全是凭空捏造的。
- start: 3110.888
  end: 3114.169
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's literally no basis for that rule.
  zh: 没有任何经文根据。
- start: 3114.468
  end: 3120.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like, why is it demonic if I start talking and angelic if they start talking?
  zh: 就好比，如果是我先说话就是来自邪灵，他们先说话就成了天使，为什么会这样？
- start: 3120.152
  end: 3121.132
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: What's going on?
  zh: 到底是怎么回事？
- start: 3121.173
  end: 3122.873
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's just a bad argument.
  zh: 这只是个糟糕的论点罢了。
- start: 3123.454
  end: 3131.899
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Nevertheless, I want to look at each of the passages, because to get there you have to misread and misapply a lot of Scripture.
  zh: 无论如何，我依然想看看他所引用的经文，因为要得出那观点，他必须对很多圣经经文本身断章取义、错误使用。
- start: 3131.94
  end: 3134.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There were those three passages we talked about earlier.
  zh: 我们之前提到的就是那三处经文。
- start: 3134.221
  end: 3136.222
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Deuteronomy 18 is the first one.
  zh: 第一处是申命记第18章。
- start: 3136.323
  end: 3147.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'This forbids the following: Number one, anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering—so don''t offer your children as demonic sacrifices.'
  zh: 这条诫命禁止以下行为：第一，不可将你的儿女用火献上——不要把儿女当作邪灵的祭品献上。
- start: 3147.753
  end: 3153.496
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number two, anyone who practices divination—so don't do weird New Agey dark arts.
  zh: 第二，凡是行占卜的人——也就是不要从事那些新世纪式的黑暗巫术之类的东西。
- start: 3153.496
  end: 3156.818
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number three, a soothsayer—this is again occult practices.
  zh: 第三，占卜者——这同样属于秘术范畴。
- start: 3156.818
  end: 3158.218
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number four, an augur.
  zh: 第四，占兆者。
- start: 3158.739
  end: 3162.601
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I know the Roman augurs who used animal entrails to foretell the future.
  zh: 我知道在罗马，有占兆者会用动物内脏来预卜未来。
- start: 3162.601
  end: 3165.822
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I don't know if these are the same in the Hebrew context or not.
  zh: 我不确定在希伯来背景下，这种做法是否相同。
- start: 3166.022
  end: 3169.364
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number five, a sorcerer using magic.
  zh: 第五，术士，就是使用魔法的。
- start: 3169.404
  end: 3170.665
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number six, a charmer.
  zh: 第六，施咒者。
- start: 3170.665
  end: 3172.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number seven, a medium.
  zh: 第七，交鬼的灵媒。
- start: 3172.346
  end: 3174.187
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number eight, a wizard.
  zh: 第八，巫师。
- start: 3174.187
  end: 3181.53
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Number nine, a necromancer—so don't raise the dead, don't perform magic, wear a small or a large.
  zh: 第九，招魂者——也就是不要行唤起亡灵之事，不要使用邪术，不论规模大小都不行。
- start: 3181.53
  end: 3184.932
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Don't be a medium and don't do sorcery.
  zh: 不要做灵媒，也不要施行巫术。
- start: 3184.992
  end: 3189.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, obviously what's going on here is references to occult practices.
  zh: 现在很显然，这里所说的是各种秘术行为。
- start: 3189.715
  end: 3191.035
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Very obviously, right?
  zh: 这显而易见，对吧？
- start: 3191.035
  end: 3198.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like, you wouldn't say you're not allowed to be a doctor because sorcery is prohibited.
  zh: 就好比，你不会因为禁止巫术，就说不许有人当医生。
- start: 3199.651
  end: 3209.234
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Both sorcerers and doctors try to resolve medical issues with concoctions, call them potions that they make.
  zh: 巫士和医生都想用一些调配的药剂来解决疾病，只不过一个会被称为药水，一个却是以邪术方式。
- start: 3209.954
  end: 3213.915
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One of those is morally good—St. Luke is a doctor.
  zh: 其中一种在道德上是正当的——像路加就是一位医生。
- start: 3214.515
  end: 3220.397
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One of those is morally bad, the one prohibited in Deuteronomy 18. What's the difference?
  zh: 另一种在道德上是恶的，也就是申命记第十八章里所禁止的。两者区别在哪里？
- start: 3220.643
  end: 3235.148
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'One of them is using demonic powers and one of them isn''t. That''s the common thing underlying all of the things prohibited in Deuteronomy 18:10-11: they''re always relying on demonic forces to try to achieve some good.'
  zh: 一个使用邪灵的力量，另一个则没有。这正是申命记十八章10到11节中所有被禁止事项的共同点：它们都借助了邪灵的力量去达成某种目的。
- start: 3236.288
  end: 3242.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So hopefully it's clear why that doesn't have anything to do with asking the saints and angels to pray for you.
  zh: 所以，希望能看出这跟请求圣徒和天使代祷完全无关。
- start: 3243.491
  end: 3246.892
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But we'll turn to the next one, 1 Samuel 28. I said we'd get back to this.
  zh: 不过，让我们转到下一段经文：撒母耳记上第二十八章。我之前说过我们会回到这里讨论。
- start: 3246.892
  end: 3250.634
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is the witch of Endor, and it becomes really clear what's going on here.
  zh: 这是关于隐多珥的女巫，这里的情节就十分清楚了。
- start: 3250.634
  end: 3254.396
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because if you read the passage, Saul says, Seek out for me a woman who is a medium.
  zh: 因为如果你读那段经文，会看到扫罗说：「给我找一个交鬼的妇人来」。
- start: 3254.396
  end: 3256.896
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He's going explicitly to someone who he knows is a medium.
  zh: 他明确地去找了一个他知道是灵媒的人。
- start: 3257.217
  end: 3258.357
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And then he tells her what to do.
  zh: 接着他告诉她该怎么做。
- start: 3258.357
  end: 3264.3
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He says, Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name for you.
  zh: 他对她说：「求你用交鬼的法术将我所告诉你的人给我招上来。」
- start: 3265.02
  end: 3278.668
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So specifically, he's asking her to use spiritual powers—not go to God and find out what Samuel has to say to me, but because he says God won't answer his prayers, he's going to the devil.
  zh: 也就是说，他要她运用灵界的力量——不是去求问神来得知撒母耳对他说什么，而是因为他说神不应允他的祷告，因此他就去求魔的势力。
- start: 3278.668
  end: 3280.43
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He's going to demons.
  zh: 他在投靠邪灵。
- start: 3280.43
  end: 3284.753
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason this is wrong is not that he's talking to Samuel.
  zh: 他的错并不在于他跟撒母耳说话。
- start: 3285.374
  end: 3288.616
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God wants Samuel to talk to Saul.
  zh: 神本来就想让撒母耳对扫罗说话。
- start: 3288.997
  end: 3296.302
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The reason this is wrong is that the way he's getting to Samuel is using demons by using a medium.
  zh: 错在于他是透过灵媒、运用邪灵的力量来找撒母耳。
- start: 3296.623
  end: 3297.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's abundantly clear.
  zh: 这是非常明显的事实。
- start: 3297.884
  end: 3305.673
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And that's even clearer in 1 Chronicles 10, the third of the three passages that Laird points to, which says the problem is Saul died for his unfaithfulness.
  zh: 在历代志上第十章里，这一点就更加显而易见。莱尔德提出的第三处经文提到，问题在于扫罗因着他的不忠心而死亡。
- start: 3305.673
  end: 3307.293
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He was unfaithful to the Lord.
  zh: 他对主不忠。
- start: 3307.394
  end: 3313.756
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He did not keep the command of the Lord and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance and did not seek guidance from the Lord.
  zh: 他没有遵守主的命令，也去求问交鬼的灵媒，寻求指示，却没有求问主。
- start: 3314.697
  end: 3327.323
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So to think this applies to Mary and the saints, we have to imagine that when you pray a rosary, it's like you've gotten a Ouija board out and you're asking Mary to answer some questions for you so you can get around God.
  zh: 所以，要把这应用到马利亚和圣徒身上，就得假设当你念玫瑰经时，等同拿出通灵板，让马利亚来回答你一些问题，藉此绕过神去获得答案。
- start: 3328.204
  end: 3334.956
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In technical terms, this is really close to another point.
  zh: 从更专门的角度来看，这其实非常接近另一个议题。
- start: 3334.956
  end: 3339.919
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I mentioned Jeff Laird works for Got Questions, and Got Questions actually occasionally has good articles.
  zh: 我提到过杰夫·莱尔德在「Got Questions」工作，而「Got Questions」有时也会出一些不错的文章。
- start: 3340.019
  end: 3342.921
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: One of those is on the difference between miracles and magic.
  zh: 其中有一篇就在探讨「神迹」和「魔术」之间的区别。
- start: 3342.921
  end: 3358.152
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Now, scholars will disagree about like the definitional differences between them, but in the Jewish and Christian context, a pretty good difference is this one: Those words might mean the same thing to some people, but there''s actually a vast difference between the two terms.'
  zh: 当然，学者们对于这个定义上的差异可能会有不同看法，但就犹太和基督信仰的脉络而言，这里有一个相当好的区分：某些人可能把这两个词当作同义，但它们实际有极大的差别。
- start: 3358.432
  end: 3360.334
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It is proper to say that Jesus worked miracles.
  zh: 说耶稣行神迹是恰当的。
- start: 3360.334
  end: 3362.715
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It would be wrong to attribute His works to magic.
  zh: 若把祂所行的归为魔术则是不对的。
- start: 3362.901
  end: 3366.043
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Basically, magic and miracles differ in their source.
  zh: 基本而言，魔术与神迹在本源上不同。
- start: 3366.163
  end: 3369.105
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Magic has either a human or demonic source.
  zh: 魔术的力量要么出于人力，要么出于邪灵。
- start: 3369.485
  end: 3372.027
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Miracles are a supernatural work of God.
  zh: 神迹则是神的超自然作为。
- start: 3372.808
  end: 3376.93
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I'd be even more specific and say magic has a demonic source specifically.
  zh: 更明确地说，所谓的魔术其实就是依赖邪灵的力量。
- start: 3376.93
  end: 3381.193
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If you're doing magic tricks or you're just doing card tricks, that's not a moral issue.
  zh: 如果你在表演戏法或纸牌把戏，那并不是道德层面的问题。
- start: 3381.353
  end: 3384.936
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We call that magic, but that's not magic in the biblical sense.
  zh: 我们会称之为「魔术」，可那并不是圣经语境里的「魔术」。
- start: 3385.196
  end: 3393.528
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Magic in the biblical sense is trying to achieve something by going around God, by relying on spiritual powers that are not of God.
  zh: 在圣经的角度，「魔术」指的是不倚靠神，却靠与神无关的灵界势力来达成某种目的。
- start: 3393.629
  end: 3399.676
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's where you're opening the doorways to the demons because you're trying to get around God.
  zh: 也正因为这样，你才会为邪灵打开通路，因为你想绕开神行事。
- start: 3400.838
  end: 3404.122
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So notice magic and miracles can look very similar.
  zh: 因此请注意，魔术跟神迹看上去有时会非常相似。
- start: 3404.122
  end: 3405.383
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is clear from Scripture.
  zh: 这一点在经文中很明确。
- start: 3405.383
  end: 3415.324
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Exodus 7: God tells Moses to tell Aaron to turn his rod into a serpent to convince Pharaoh to let His people go.'
  zh: 《出埃及记》第七章：神要摩西吩咐亚伦把手杖变为蛇，好让法老相信并放走祂的百姓。
- start: 3415.324
  end: 3418.485
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And sure enough, Aaron does just that at God's command.
  zh: 结果亚伦照着神的吩咐行了这事。
- start: 3418.485
  end: 3420.945
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is not magic; this is a miracle.
  zh: 这并不是魔术，而是神迹。
- start: 3421.405
  end: 3429.346
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But then Pharaoh summons the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts.
  zh: 但法老召唤智慧人和术士来，他们也用秘术行了同样的事。
- start: 3429.586
  end: 3442.617
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So you have demonstrated there in Exodus 7 that there can be one thing that is of God, commanded by God, clearly working through God—that's Aaron's miraculous ministry.
  zh: 如此，《出埃及记》第七章展示了两件事：一件完全出自神、由神吩咐并透过神而行的——即亚伦所行的神迹。
- start: 3443.377
  end: 3450.579
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Producing an identical looking effect to a thing brought about through the occult, through dark arts, through dark spiritual powers.
  zh: 与另一件受秘术、幽暗势力或黑暗灵界力量支配，所做出来的效果看似相同。
- start: 3451.079
  end: 3452.299
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So hopefully that's clear.
  zh: 希望这样说明够清楚。
- start: 3452.299
  end: 3459.121
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Just like if you have a headache, you might go to a witch doctor, you might go to a real doctor, and maybe they both cure your headaches.
  zh: 就像你头痛时，你可能找巫医，也可能找真正的医生，也许他们都能治好你的头疼。
- start: 3459.121
  end: 3462.982
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But one of them is doing it through human agency, and one of them is doing it through demonic agency.
  zh: 可其中一个是借助人的方法，而另一个却依托邪灵的力量。
- start: 3463.702
  end: 3467.763
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'That''s the problem: not what''s done, but how is it done.'
  zh: 问题在于方式，而不单在于所做之事本身。
- start: 3468.496
  end: 3472.498
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And if the how involves demons, don't do that thing.
  zh: 如果那做法涉及邪灵，就不要去做。
- start: 3472.618
  end: 3475.739
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So that's what's objected here.
  zh: 所以我们正在反对的正是这种情况。
- start: 3475.739
  end: 3480.221
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So go back then to the passage—Laird's objection rather.
  zh: 那么回到经文这边——或者说回到莱尔德的反对意见。
- start: 3480.982
  end: 3484.884
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're told that any contact with a spiritual entity other than God Himself does three things.
  zh: 他的主张是说，凡与除神以外之灵沟通，都会带来三重后果。
- start: 3484.884
  end: 3488.445
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, first notice there's no reference to that you can't contact demons.
  zh: 先留意一下，这些经文里从来没有说过「你不可以跟邪灵联络」。
- start: 3488.786
  end: 3493.868
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: None of the things prohibited in any of the three passages he mentioned have anything to say about talking to angels.
  zh: 他所提到的三处经文中所禁止的一切，没有一条是关于「不可跟天使交谈」的。
- start: 3493.868
  end: 3496.469
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We see people talking to angels throughout the Bible.
  zh: 相反，我们在整本圣经里常常看到人和天使说话的例子。
- start: 3497.04
  end: 3500.021
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: None of them have anything to say about talking to saints in heaven.
  zh: 也没有一条经文禁止与天上的圣徒交谈。
- start: 3500.441
  end: 3503.542
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Those prohibitions literally do not exist.
  zh: 换言之，这种禁止根本不存在。
- start: 3504.082
  end: 3508.984
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So number one, we're told it ignores a direct command from God, but that direct command literally does not exist.
  zh: 所以，第一点他说这是违背神的直接命令，但实际上并没有哪条命令禁止这一点。
- start: 3509.224
  end: 3519.908
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Second, we're told it bypasses the best possible person to pray to in the first place—God Himself—but it doesn't. The difference between magic and miracles is one works with and through God, one works around God.
  zh: 第二，他说这绕过了最适合祈祷的对象——神自己。但其实并没有。魔术和神迹的分别就在于：一个是「与神、透过神」而行，另一个则是「绕过神」。
- start: 3519.908
  end: 3529.053
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is why that light of glory stuff matters, because the reason the saints can hear your prayers and offer prayers for you is that they're in union with God.
  zh: 这就是为什么「荣耀之光」的概念非常重要——圣徒之所以能听见你的祈祷并为你代求，是因为他们与神同在，与神合一。
- start: 3529.053
  end: 3533.614
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: If the saints weren't in heaven—right, like if they were in hell—they would not be able to intercede for you.
  zh: 如果圣徒不在天上，而是在地狱，那么自然没法为你代求。
- start: 3534.814
  end: 3538.815
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So every Catholic knows this, whether they can articulate it in that way or not.
  zh: 所以每个公教徒都明白这一点，不管能不能明确说出来。
- start: 3538.815
  end: 3545.717
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The only people they're trying to pray to are the ones who are in heaven, meaning they're only going the right direction.
  zh: 他们请求代祷的，唯有那些在天上的人，也就是只走正确的方向。
- start: 3545.717
  end: 3547.817
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: They're not going the wrong direction.
  zh: 并没有往错误的方向去。
- start: 3548.597
  end: 3551.078
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now you might say, Oh, how do we know they're really in heaven?
  zh: 也许你会问：「哦，那我们怎么知道他们真的在天上呢？」
- start: 3551.078
  end: 3552.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Separate question.
  zh: 那是另外一个问题。
- start: 3552.941
  end: 3559.927
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Basically, God's not going to accidentally let you summon a demon any more than if you're in a well and you call out, Jeff, Jeff, help me!
  zh: 基本上，神不会因为你无心之举就让你召来邪灵，就像你在井里喊「杰夫！杰夫，救我！」时，神也不会说：「哦，因为杰夫其实在地狱，所以只好派个邪灵去。」
- start: 3559.927
  end: 3562.249
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But Jeff's now dead in hell, and he didn't know that.
  zh: 也许杰夫已经死了，还在地狱，但你并不知道。
- start: 3562.249
  end: 3563.91
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: He just died and went to hell.
  zh: 他死后进了地狱。
- start: 3564.591
  end: 3570.375
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That doesn't mean, Oh, now a demon needs to come into your life because you didn't know Jeff had died and gone to hell and you asked him for help.
  zh: 但这并不代表「哦，你不知道杰夫在地狱，还向他求救，就得派邪灵来折磨你」——并不是这样运作的。
- start: 3570.596
  end: 3571.737
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It doesn't work like that.
  zh: 事情并非如此。
- start: 3571.737
  end: 3574.799
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God's not trying to trick you in some weird legalistic trap.
  zh: 神也不会用这种怪异的法理陷阱来愚弄你。
- start: 3575.24
  end: 3580.103
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So this is also a good reason to pretty canonize saints if you're really scrupulous about this.
  zh: 所以，如果你对此格外谨慎，就会理解为什么我们要正式辨定某人为圣徒。
- start: 3581.361
  end: 3591.086
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But we know that there are saints in heaven because we're told that we have this cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 11 and 12 that are surrounding us and cheering us on as we run the race.
  zh: 不过我们也知道确实有圣徒在天上，因为希伯来书第十一与十二章告诉我们，有这么一大群见证人在四周围着我们，在我们奔跑天路时为我们加油。
- start: 3591.646
  end: 3595.448
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's okay to play to the crowd and say, Hey, cheer me on.
  zh: 所以「向观众呼喊『给我加油』」是没问题的。
- start: 3595.448
  end: 3597.309
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I need some help here.
  zh: 我在这里需要帮忙。
- start: 3597.509
  end: 3600.351
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You're not summoning demons when you do that.
  zh: 你这么做并不是在召唤邪灵。
- start: 3600.691
  end: 3606.094
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In doing that, the only reason that works is because of their union with God Himself.
  zh: 这样做能奏效的唯一原因，正是因为这些圣徒与神自己合一了。
- start: 3606.654
  end: 3618.402
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'Now, I mentioned in the last video, but I''ll stress this again: it''s true that this is less efficient than just going to God, but prayer is not about efficiency.'
  zh: 我在上支视频提过，但我再强调一次：固然，这种代祷途径比直接向神祈求在效率上不如后者，但祈祷并不在于追求效率。
- start: 3618.402
  end: 3628.593
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I know of a case—it was actually at a Pentecostal church—where she woke up in the middle of the night and felt the strong need to pray for a stranger, or not a stranger, like someone she didn't know super well.
  zh: 我知道这么一个例子——当时在一家灵恩派教会——有位姊妹半夜醒来，强烈感到需要替某个人祈祷。那人并不是完全的陌生人，但她也不是和他特别熟。
- start: 3628.593
  end: 3633.158
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Started praying for them and then found out the next day they'd had some sort of medical emergency or medical scare.
  zh: 她就开始为那人祷告，第二天才发现那人遇到一些医疗上的急况或突发状况。
- start: 3633.436
  end: 3634.518
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: These kind of stories happen.
  zh: 类似的事例时常会发生。
- start: 3634.518
  end: 3640.285
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: I think a lot of people have these experiences or maybe know someone who's had these experiences.
  zh: 我想很多人都有类似的经历，或者认识有类似经历的人。
- start: 3640.285
  end: 3645.952
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You feel moved to pray for so-and-so and then you find out later there was a reason why you were praying for them.
  zh: 你心里突然感动要为某人祷告，然后事后才发现，你为他祷告其实是大有原因的。
- start: 3647.795
  end: 3655.861
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That means that it's like, Well, here's this issue, and then God brought it to you to pray to Him about the issue.
  zh: 这说明，好比出现了这个问题，然后神让你得知，目的是让你向祂祈祷，介入这件事。
- start: 3655.921
  end: 3656.681
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Is that direct?
  zh: 这是直接的吗？
- start: 3656.681
  end: 3659.362
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: No. But that's how these things work.
  zh: 不是。不过这件事就是这样运作的。
- start: 3659.362
  end: 3665.783
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: In Genesis, remember when God goes to Abraham to have him intercede for Lot and for Sodom and Gomorrah?
  zh: 在创世记里，你还记得神对亚伯拉罕说，要他为罗得，以及所多玛和蛾摩拉代求吗？
- start: 3666.204
  end: 3672.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's less efficient than if He were just to cut Abraham out of the loop and do what He was going to do.
  zh: 如果神直接跳过亚伯拉罕，自己行事，其实效率会更高。
- start: 3672.345
  end: 3675.426
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Efficiency is not the right method to look at here.
  zh: 在这里，效率并不是我们该衡量的标准。
- start: 3675.966
  end: 3687.538
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So the fact that it doesn't bypass the best person possible to pray to—it relies on the existence of God—and the final thing about it opening a channel of communication with demons, it's just wrong.
  zh: 所以，它并没有绕过最适合祈祷的对象——它依赖于神的存在。至于说它是否会因此为邪灵开启什么渠道，这个想法本身就是错误的。
- start: 3687.538
  end: 3693.28
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: When Mary is talking to the Angel Gabriel, it doesn't give the devil permission to come and inhabit her body.
  zh: 马利亚与天使加百列说话时，也没有为魔鬼敞开什么通道，来占据她的身体。
- start: 3693.701
  end: 3695.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's not how that works.
  zh: 事情并不是这样运作的。
- start: 3695.161
  end: 3706.807
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is just a strange anti-spiritualism in certain parts of Protestantism, and it's born in part out of a healthy desire not to consult demonic stuff.
  zh: 在某些新教圈子里，这只是一种奇怪的「反灵性」倾向，一部分原因来源于他们渴望避免接触邪灵。
- start: 3707.375
  end: 3710.076
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But most spirits are good, right?
  zh: 可大多数灵体其实是善的，对吧？
- start: 3710.076
  end: 3717.1
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Like a third of the stars fall from the sky in Revelation, which is understood frequently to mean that a third of the angels rebel against God.
  zh: 就像《启示录》中说三分之一的星辰从天上坠落，通常被理解为三分之一的天使背叛了神。
- start: 3717.58
  end: 3719.161
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So most spirits are good.
  zh: 所以大多数灵体其实是善的。
- start: 3720.141
  end: 3733.999
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So just like you wouldn't say, Don't trust your neighbor because there are murderers out there, and so we should shut ourselves off from our neighbor, you would also want to say we don't want to have just an anti-spiritual attitude because most spirits are good.
  zh: 同理，你不会因为世上存在杀人犯，就说「别信任你的邻居」，就因此把自己与邻居隔绝。所以我们也不应该因为害怕，就摆出完全「反灵性」的态度，大部分灵体其实是好的。
- start: 3733.999
  end: 3735.979
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Now, that doesn't mean accept all spirits, right?
  zh: 当然，这不代表我们就要接受所有灵体，是吧？
- start: 3735.979
  end: 3737.14
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Test the spirits.
  zh: 要分辨诸灵。
- start: 3737.14
  end: 3743.603
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: That's also true of the literal spirits—they're good and bad angels, they're fallen and unfallen angels.
  zh: 这也同样适用于所有灵，不管是天使还是邪灵，有堕落的天使，也有未堕落的天使。
- start: 3744.023
  end: 3745.664
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: But there's no rule against talking to them.
  zh: 但并没有哪条规定说不可以与他们交谈。
- start: 3745.664
  end: 3748.085
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's no rule against talking to the saints in heaven.
  zh: 也没有哪条规则禁止与你在天上的圣徒交谈。
- start: 3748.145
  end: 3751.146
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This is a made-up kind of Protestant legalism.
  zh: 这是某些新教徒自己杜撰的一种律法主义观念。
- start: 3752.447
  end: 3755.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Okay, the last thing—oh, yeah, I didn't even mention this part.
  zh: 好的，最后一点——哦，对了，我还没提到这部分。
- start: 3755.928
  end: 3757.709
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's about consulting the dead.
  zh: 他们所谓的问题是「求问亡灵」。
- start: 3757.709
  end: 3771.29
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: 'I''m going to just end with Jesus'' words on the subject in Mark 12:24-27. In responding to the Sadducees, He says: Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?'
  zh: 关于这个话题，我就想引用耶稣在马可福音12章24到27节里的话。祂回答撒都该人说：「你们所以错了，岂不是因为不明白圣经，不晓得神的大能吗？」
- start: 3772.071
  end: 3783.88
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
  zh: 「至于死人复活的事，难道你们没有读过摩西书上荆棘篇所载的吗？神对摩西说：『我是亚伯拉罕的神，以撒的神，雅各的神。』神不是死人的神，乃是活人的神。」
- start: 3783.88
  end: 3785.481
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: You are quite wrong.
  zh: 「你们是大错了。」
- start: 3785.481
  end: 3794.307
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So if you tell me Catholics pray to the dead, Jesus tells you you are quite wrong, because the saints in heaven are alive.
  zh: 所以如果有人说公教徒是在向死人祈祷，耶稣就会说：「你错了」，因为天上的圣徒乃是活着的。
- start: 3794.307
  end: 3796.208
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because God is the God of the living.
  zh: 因为神是活人的神。
- start: 3797.129
  end: 3800.971
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's right there in Mark 12. So this isn't consultation with the dead.
  zh: 这在马可福音第十二章里就明明写着。所以这并不是去求问亡灵。
- start: 3800.971
  end: 3801.812
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: This isn't necromancy.
  zh: 这也不是招魂之术。
- start: 3801.812
  end: 3803.493
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We're not raising the dead.
  zh: 我们并没有把死人唤起。
- start: 3803.593
  end: 3804.834
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: There's none of that.
  zh: 完全没有这些事。
- start: 3805.394
  end: 3814.72
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: The saints—in one sense, you can talk about them being dead because they bodily died—but in the real sense of the term, they're more alive than you and I are because they're in the presence of God.
  zh: 从某种角度说，圣徒确实「死了」，因为他们肉身去世了；但在更真实的意义上，他们比你我更「活着」，因为他们在神面前。
- start: 3814.881
  end: 3817.283
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So then the question isn't Should we talk to the dead?
  zh: 所以问题不在于「我们该不该跟死人说话？」
- start: 3817.283
  end: 3823.928
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's Should those who are closest to God be people that we trust to pray for us or not?
  zh: 而是「那些与神至为亲近的人，是否值得我们信赖，好让他们为我们代祷？」
- start: 3824.249
  end: 3838.301
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And when you reframe it that way, by realizing they're not dead but alive, when you reframe it in light of what Jesus says instead of Protestant superstitions about spirits, then you realize that praying to saints and angels is profoundly biblical in its orientation.
  zh: 当你用这样的方式重新思考，明白他们并不是死的，而是活着；当你按照耶稣的教导去理解，而不是被新教对灵界的迷信影响时，你就会发现，向圣徒和天使祈祷在本质上其实非常符合圣经。
- start: 3838.301
  end: 3851.605
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: It's taking seriously the notion of the Body of Christ, taking seriously the notion that the saints in heaven are alive and interceding for us and that they're able to hear us, even though we don't maybe necessarily understand how that looks.
  zh: 这是在严肃看待「基督的身体」这一概念，也认真看待天上的圣徒是活着并为我们代求，以及他们能够听到我们的祈求——即使我们不一定完全明白其中的原理。
- start: 3851.605
  end: 3855.986
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Because eye has not seen and ear has not heard, we know they're experiencing something glorious.
  zh: 因为「眼未曾见，耳未曾闻」，我们知道他们正在经历某种极其荣耀的事。
- start: 3855.986
  end: 3860.087
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: We know they're godlike in their orientation to Christ.
  zh: 我们也知道，他们因向着基督而变得近似于神。
- start: 3861.107
  end: 3870.729
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: So given all this, I strongly encourage you, if you've never done it, to really cultivate a habit of going to the saints and asking for their prayers, because it's spiritually healthy and good for you.
  zh: 所以，基于这一切，如果你过去从未这样做过，我非常鼓励你，真的养成一个来到圣徒面前、请求他们祈祷的习惯，因为这对灵命非常有益，也对你有好处。
- start: 3870.968
  end: 3874.11
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: And the arguments against it are largely superstitious.
  zh: 而那些反对意见在很大程度上都是出于迷信。
- start: 3874.511
  end: 3876.472
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: For Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
  zh: 这里是「无耻教皇党」，我是乔·艾施迈尔。
- start: 3876.913
  end: 3878.033
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Hope you enjoy.
  zh: 希望你会喜欢。
- start: 3878.034
  end: 3879.454
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: Look forward to your comments.
  zh: 期待你的评论。
- start: 3879.595
  end: 3880.595
  speaker: SPEAKER_01
  en: God bless you.
  zh: 愿神赐福你。
- start: 3881.236
  end: 3886.56
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Thank you for listening to Shameless Popery, a production of the Catholic Answers Podcast Network.
  zh: 感谢你收听「无耻教皇党」，这是由 Catholic Answers Podcast Network 制作的节目。
- start: 3886.56
  end: 3891.363
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: Find more great shows by visiting CatholicAnswersPodcast.com
  zh: 你可以通过访问 CatholicAnswersPodcast.com 找到更多精彩的节目，
- start: 3891.424
  end: 3894.226
  speaker: SPEAKER_00
  en: or search Catholic Answers wherever you listen to podcasts.
  zh: 或者在你收听播客的任何平台搜索「Catholic Answers」。
