欢迎再次回到「无耻教皇党」。 Welcome back to Shameless Popery.
我是乔·艾施迈尔。 I'm Joe Eschmeyer.
这是关于向圣徒祈祷的第三支视频。 So this is the third of three videos on prayers to the saints.
你不需要看过前面那两个视频也能理解这一支，因为某种程度上，这支才是最基础的。 You don't have to have seen either two for this one to make sense, because in some ways this is actually going to be the most basic one.
前两支视频是回应该加文·奥特伦博士提出的反对意见：其中一个是认为中世纪对圣徒的祈 祷让人远离基督，另一个是认为这样的祈祷源自异教，然后我也对这些论点作出了回应。 The first two videos were objections by Dr. Gavin Ortlund: the idea that medieval prayers to the saints drew people away from Christ, and the idea that prayers are of pagan origin, and responded to those arguments.
但我和加文似乎都同意，天上的圣徒能听到我们的祈 祷并为我们代求，而许多新教徒甚至不会承认这点。 But Gavin and I actually seem to agree that the saints in heaven can hear our prayers and are interceding for us, and a lot of Protestants wouldn't even give that much.
我们怎么知道这些事情是真的呢？ How do we know either of those things are true?
这些是合理的问题，我想要作出回答。 Those are reasonable objections, and I want to answer those.
其实在上周的视频里，有一位评论者——我就不说他的名字了，不过那条评论是 公开的，如果你想找的话可以自己去看——我们交流得很愉快，我也非常喜欢。 One of the commenters, actually in the video from last week—I won't mention their name, but it's a public comment you can find it yourself if you want—had a great time and I really enjoyed it.
他说这给他带来了很多值得思考的内容。 They said it had given them a lot to think about.
他勉强承认，这是迄今为止在这个议题上最好、最有趣的分享之一。 They begrudgingly admit to it being one of the best and most enjoyable on this topic so far.
但他也说，他还没听到公教护教学者和学者们深入探讨以下 几点，而在这些问题被详细解释之前，他仍然不太相信。 But they said, however, there are a few things I've yet to hear about in depth from Catholic apologists and scholars that I wish would be covered, because until they are, I still remain unconvinced.
啊，这些问题应该都很不错：第一点：我很担心请求圣徒为我们代求会让邪灵有机可乘。 Ah, these are going to be good objections: Number one: I'm greatly concerned that asking the saints to intercede for us opens the door to the demonic.
随便呼喊马利亚、彼得等人的名字， Throwing out the name Mary or Peter, etc.,
并不能保证某位圣徒会听见，反倒很可能为邪灵敞开大门，让它们进入我们的生活。 is no guarantee that a particular saint is going to hear us, but it is a great way to invite a demonic spirit into our lives.
甚至还会引发各种假冒的显现——我们稍后会谈到。 Even false apparitions—we'll get into that.
第二：我的第二个担忧是，经过两千年累积下来的圣徒既非无所 不在，也非无所不知，所以能不能听到我们的祈求就很不确定。 Number two: My second concern—2,000 years of accumulating saints that are neither omnipresent nor omniscient means it's kind of hit or miss whether or not they can hear us.
我们也会谈到这一点。 We'll get into that.
第三：几乎没有足够的时间用圣经的角度来具体说明圣徒是如何听到我们的祈祷的。 Number three: Not nearly enough time is spent showing the particulars of how the saints hear us from a scriptural standpoint.
例如，你和奥特伦博士都相信圣徒的确能听到并知道地上发生的事情。 For example, both you and Dr. Ortlund believe that the saints do hear us and are aware of what's going on on earth.
我们也遇到了一些不相信圣徒能听到的那些新教 徒，因为他们觉得这代表圣徒在天上会受苦。 We've also heard Protestants who do not believe that they can, because that would mean that they are suffering in heaven.
至于「在天上受苦」的说法，我想我们会谈到——余下的部分我们必然也会说到。 The suffering in heaven part I think we'll get to—I know we'll get to the rest.
所以在这里，我打算大体上按照与这位评论者提出的顺序相反的方式来回答。 So here I'm going to do them more or less in reverse order from the governor's desires.
抱歉。 Sorry.
这些问题都很重要，不过我觉得从逻辑来讲，倒过来回答会更合理。 They're good objections, but I think it makes more sense logically to approach them in the opposite direction.
第一个问题，也是这三个之中最简单的：圣徒能不能听到我们的呼求？ The first one is going to be the easiest of the three: Can the saints hear us?
我想要探讨的不仅是他们所问的内容，还包括圣徒是否保持意识？ And I want to look at not only what they're asking but also are the saints even conscious?
因为到如今还有一些人——像现今的基督复临安息日会，以及过去的马 丁·路德——认为圣徒其实是处于无意识状态，无法听到我们的祈求。 Because there are some people—Seventh-day Adventists today, Martin Luther in the past—who thought the saints were actually unconscious and unable to hear us.
第二个，也更困难的问题是：那圣徒究竟是如何看见或听见我们的？ The second and much harder question is: Well, how are the saints able to see or hear us?
圣徒又是怎样看见或听见任何事的？ How are the saints able to see or hear anything?
我们会深入探讨，但也需要更详细的讨论。 We'll get into that, but it's going to take a little more of a deep dive.
第三个疑问则是：既然如此，我们到底该不该这样做？ And the third set of objections is: Well, should we do this anyway?
就是，即使我相信圣徒在天上，并且他们正为我们祈祷，我怎么知道当我说「马利亚， 请为我们代求」时，不会有哪个邪灵跳出来说：「好啊，这样我就能来折磨你了」呢？ You know, even if I'm convinced the saints are in heaven and that they are praying, how do I know when I say Mary, pray for us that some demon isn't crawling up there saying, All right, that gives me permission to torment you now?
那这个是怎么回事呢？ So how does that work?
因为圣经确实谴责了招魂、巫术，以及类似通灵板、召唤亡灵之类的行为。 Because Scripture does condemn things like necromancy and spiritualism and like Ouija boards and conjuring up the dead.
在当时不存在通灵板，但你明白那意思。 Ouija boards didn't exist then, but you get the idea.
那这和那些行为究竟有什么不一样呢？ What makes this different from that?
这些都是好问题，我很高兴大家在认真思考。 These are good questions, and I'm glad people are thinking these through.
我会尽力依次回答这些问题。 I'm going to do my best to answer them more or less in order.
让我们先从「灵魂沉睡」这个观点开始——也就是 认为圣徒听不到我们，因为他们在「睡眠」中。 Let's start with the idea of soul sleep—the idea that saints can't hear us because they're asleep.
在回答这个问题时，我也会回应这派人士最初的一些想法。 In answering this, I'm going to answer some of the beginning of the camp.
我们必须更深入地探讨一下。 We're going to have to go a little deeper.
「灵魂沉睡」这个说法最常见于基督复临安息日会。 So the soul sleep idea is most popularly associated with the Seventh-day Adventists.
在他们官方网站上的信仰宣言中，他们说圣经说死人一无所知。 And on their official website in their declaration of their beliefs, they say the Bible says those who have died know nothing.
这意味着人死后不会意识到时间的流逝。 That means we aren't aware of the passage of time after death.
也不知道世上正在发生什么事。 We aren't aware of what's happening in the world.
他们认为死亡就像深度睡眠。 Death is like a deep sleep.
人的身体和灵都在休息，因为那使身体和灵魂成为一体并 给予生命的气息，已经回到神那里，一直到复活为止。 Your body and spirit rest as the breath of life, which makes body and soul one and alive, has returned to God until the resurrection.
你可以理解为什么这叫作「灵魂沉睡」。 You can see I think why it's called soul sleep.
马丁·路德也一度对这个想法颇感兴趣。 Martin Luther flirted with this idea.
在1522年给某位大学教授的一封信里，他有些犹疑地部分接受了这个立场。 He kind of tentatively embraced it in part in a letter in 1522 to a university professor.
他说：「我倾向于同意你的看法，认为义人的灵魂是沉睡的。」 He says, I'm inclined to agree with your opinion that the souls of the just are asleep.
他们不知道自己在哪里，一直到审判的日子。 They do not know where they are up to the day of judgment.
显然，这对炼狱、圣徒的代求以及其他许多方面都会有重大的影响。 Now, this would of course have major implications for things like purgatory, for the intercession of saints, and all sorts of things.
这个观念对一位新教徒而言的确很方便，因为如果灵魂沉睡是真的，那 么圣徒代求就行不通，灵魂也不在炼狱，也不享受神临在的荣福直观。 It was actually a very convenient thing for a Protestant to believe in, because if soul sleep is true, then yeah, the saints' intercession doesn't work, and also the souls aren't in purgatory, and also they're not in the beatific vision.
他们并没有在享受或经历神的同在。 They're not enjoying or experiencing God.
他们只是在沉睡。 They're just asleep.
他们并没有被消灭，只是漂浮在某个地方，没有任何意识。 They're not exactly annihilated; they're just floating around there somewhere without any consciousness.
然而，路德也意识到这说法不可能全然正确，所以 他说：「我不敢断言这对所有灵魂都是真的。」 Nevertheless, Luther realized this couldn't completely be right, so he said, I do not dare to affirm that this is true for all souls in general.
他指出一些经文证据，我们接下来会看到，这些 经文似乎相当明确地驳斥了灵魂沉睡的说法。 And he points to some scriptural evidence that, as we're going to see, actually seems to pretty clearly refute soul sleep.
但他又想两面都保留，觉得也许有些义人的灵魂在沉睡，也有些则没有。 But he's going to try to have it both ways to say, well, maybe some souls are asleep and some aren't of the righteous.
他所持的立场有些奇怪。 It's kind of a strange position that he takes.
这观点似乎并未被许多新教徒接受，因为路德本人在这 方面并不太一致，也看不出他对自己的立场有多坚定。 It doesn't seem to have been one that caught on among many Protestants because Luther was himself not super consistent on it and didn't seem to be totally convinced of his own argument.
尽管如此，我还是想客观看待路德和基督复临安息 日会，因为的确有一些经文把死亡比喻成睡眠。 But nevertheless, I want to be fair to both Luther and the Adventists that there are these passages in the Scripture that speak about death as sleep.
那我们该如何理解这些经文呢？ So how do we make sense of those?
例如，在约翰福音第十一章中，拉撒路去世时，耶稣 说：「我们的朋友拉撒路睡了，我要去叫醒他。」 For instance, in John 11, when Lazarus dies, Jesus says, Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awake him out of sleep.
然而，不幸的是，使徒常常会从字面来理解经文，所以他们听到这话， 就以为主说的是肉身睡觉，耶稣就得向他们解释，其实祂是指死亡。 Now, unfortunately, the apostles are often biblical literalists, and so they hear this and they think that he's talking about physical sleep, and Jesus has to explain, no, he's talking about death.
这是在约翰福音第十一章。另一个经文段落是传道书第十二章。有意思的是，基督复 临安息日会就引用它，说其中有一句话：「尘土仍归于地，灵仍归于赐灵的神。」 That's John 11. Another passage is Ecclesiastes 12. Now this one, fascinatingly, is quoted by the Seventh-day Adventists, who say that well, the line says, And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
如果不是安息日会的立场来读这段经文，会感觉它很明显地告诉我们 ，当我们说人在死亡中「沉睡」时，指的是身体归于尘土、安息，等 候普世复活，而不是说灵魂在睡觉，而是如同身体在「睡眠」一般。 Now, as a non-Adventist reading this, that seems to be very clearly saying that when we talk about sleeping in death, we're talking about the body going to rest in the earth until the general resurrection, not about the soul being asleep, but about the body being asleep, as it were.
我们之所以称之为「睡眠」，也是为什么我们用「c emetery」这种词——意思就是休憩之所。 And the reason we call it sleep—this is by the way where we get words like cemetery—we're referring to this as like the place of sleep.
在异教的传统里，他们称之为「死者之城」（necropolis），而我们之 所以使用「墓园」这个词，是因为我们相信这是一处休息之所，等到他们复活。 The pagans called it a necropolis, a city of the dead, but we use cemetery because we believe this is a place of rest before they rise again.
但以理书第十二章也谈到这个：「尘土中睡着的有 许多人……」——注意，这里说他们在哪里睡？ Daniel 12 talks about this: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth—notice that where are they asleep?
就是在地上的尘土里，他们入土了——他们将被唤 醒，有的得享永生，有的受羞辱，且被永远憎恶。 In the dust of the earth, they're buried—shall awake, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
所以这里说的「睡着」与「醒来」，指的是身体的死亡与将来的身体复活。 So this sleeping and awaking are references to bodily death and bodily resurrection.
要说这是形容灵魂，就得先相信灵魂真的在地底下——比方说， 你挖一下就能找着他们的灵魂，或者说灵魂和身体仍在一起。 It's not about the soul, unless you believe the soul is actually in the ground—you know, if you dig around, you're going to find people's souls, or you could say their souls in their body.
然而，死亡的本质就在于灵魂与身体分离。 But the whole idea of death is a separation of soul and body.
这正是死亡的定义。 That's literally what death is.
拉丁文里，灵魂这个词是「anima」，含有 「给予生命」的意思——它让你的身体活着。 The Latin word for soul is anima, which is the animation—it's what makes your body alive.
哲学家彼得·克雷夫特举了一个例子，说有两头完全相同的牛。 Peter Kreeft, the philosopher, gives the example of two cows who are identical.
唯一区别是，一头是活的，另一头是死的，而且是刚刚死去。 The only difference is one of them is alive and one of them is dead, and one of them has just died moments ago.
他说：「从生物角度看，这两者差别究竟是什么呢？」 And he says, Well, what's biologically the difference?
它们的体重、身高、外形都一样，所有物理特征都一样。 The same weight, the same height, the same shape, the same—all of the material properties are the same.
从物质层面看，这就像同卵双胞胎的牛，可是其中有一个 所缺少的，是某种使之活动的本质，而另一个还具备。 At the level of matter, there might be identical twin cows, but there's something else—an animating principle that's in one and not in the other.
在那头活牛身上，这些物质部分会彼此协作。 In one cow, all of those big material parts are working together.
它们会移动，让牛保持生命和感知，等等。 They're moving and they're keeping the cow alive, aware, et cetera.
而在另一头牛身上，这些功能都不存在了。 And in the other, those things aren't there.
实际上，由于缺少那个要素，各种器官和系统很快就会开始衰败分解。 In fact, they so much aren't there that the different organs and systems pretty quickly start to decay and fall apart.
我们需要有个称呼来命名这种赋予生命的原理，拉丁 语叫作「anima」，英文就是「soul」。 We need a name for whatever we're going to call that animating principle, and the Latin word for that is anima, which in English we say soul.
我们说的灵魂，正是指这个维持物质整体并使之活着的原理。 That's what we literally mean by a soul: that principle by which a material thing is kept together and kept alive.
因此，如果说灵魂「在身体里沉睡」，那其实就只是说这个人还在睡，没有死。 So to say that the soul is asleep in the body is just to say that the person is asleep, not dead.
而当我们说一个人死了，就是表示他的灵魂已离开身体。这就是 为什么，譬如我们会说耶稣在彼得前书第三章里「降到阴间向挪 亚时代不信的人传道」，同时也可以说祂当时仍在坟墓里。 When we say a person is dead, we mean the soul has actually left the body, which is why, for instance, in the case of Jesus, we can talk about Him both in 1 Peter 3 descending to preach to the souls who rejected Him in the days of Noah, and we can also speak about Him being in the tomb.
祂同时存在于两个地方，因为人是灵魂与身体共同构成，灵魂和身体一旦分 开，就有一种意义上说「你」在此处，也有另一种意义上说「你」在彼处。 He is in both places because you are soul and body, and so when soul and body are separated, there's a sense in which you are in one place, there's a sense in which you are in the other place.
希望这样解释能说明问题，而圣经的说法正是我们论述基督方式的基础。 Hopefully that makes sense, but certainly how Scripture speaks is how we speak of Christ.
从这个角度来说，我们可以把灵魂和身体区分开来。身体安息，等待将来身体的复活。 It explains in this first sense that we can talk about the soul and the body separately, and the body has gone to rest in peace in anticipation of the bodily resurrection.
同时，也可以很明确地说，灵魂进入了神所赐的安息。 We can also, strikingly, talk about the soul entering the rest of God as well.
关于如何正确或错误地使用这个概念，我们稍后再谈。我们在诗篇 第九十五篇中清楚地看到，当神谈到在出埃及过程中悖逆的以色列 人时，说：「我就在怒中起誓，他们断不可进入我的安息。」 We'll get into the right and wrong way to use that, but we see that pretty clearly in Psalm 95, when God says of the rebellious Israelites in the Exodus that I swore in my anger they should not enter into my rest.
希伯来书第四章对此有很好的说明，解释了这里的「安息」指的是什么— —就是安息日，也就是神自己的安息，因为那一天神停止了一切工作。 Hebrews 4 has a great comment and explains what's meant by the rest—that it's the Sabbath day, the Sabbath rest of God, because on that day God rested from all His works.
在这种意义上，我们所说的安息并不是指人的意识丧失。 When we talk about rest in this sense, we don't mean loss of consciousness.
而是说人不再继续劳苦挣扎了。 We mean you're no longer striving.
当灵魂安息于神时——这是我们谈论「安息」的第二层意义—— 并不意味着你对周遭的事毫无知觉，不不不，生命仍然艰难。 That when the soul is at rest in God—this is the second sense we can talk about rest—not that you're not aware of what's going on, but no, no, no, life is hard.
要带着恐惧战兢完成你自己的得救之工。 Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
而当这趟旅程完成，你也领取了你的奖赏，你自然会有点放松，是吧？ And now that this journey has been completed and you've received your reward, you kind of relax, right?
你不再以同样的方式不断努力了。 You're no longer striving in the same way.
当然，你还会为别人祈祷，这些都没错，但那种劳苦已经终止，一切已经圆满结束。 Now, sure, you're still praying for other people, all of that is still true, but it's that loss of striving, the completion of all that.
第六日是人类的大劳苦之日，而第七日则是神的安息日。 Day six is the day of humanity and this great day of effort, and day seven is the Sabbath rest of God.
然而，这正是我们努力要进入的「神的今日」。 But this is the today of God that we're trying to enter.
希望这样解释够清楚了。 Hopefully that's clear.
当我们这样谈论「安息」时，并不是指对周遭事物不知不觉，否则就得说，那位在第七 日歇了他一切工的神，从创世记以来就不知道世界上发生了什么——那可就糟糕了。 When we talk about rest in that sense, we don't mean unaware of what's going on, or else we'd have to say God, who rested on the seventh day from all His works, isn't aware of what's going on in the world since Genesis—and that would be a huge disaster.
显然，神知道所发生的一切，但仍在安息中；当 我们说灵魂安息时，也正是这种安息的含义。 Obviously, God knows what's going on and yet is at rest, and that's the kind of rest we're talking about when we talk about the soul being at rest.
这是圣经里所说的灵魂与身体在死亡中「安息」的两层含义。 So that's the twofold sense biblically we can talk about souls and bodies resting in death.
那对于那些据说在「沉睡」或「安息」中的灵魂，该怎么理解呢？ So what about these supposedly sleeping souls or resting souls?
他们是否知道地上的事呢？ Are they aware of earthly affairs or no?
在这点上，圣经证据明确显示他们确实知道。 And the biblical evidence here is very clear that they are.
我们主要来看启示录，原因是：第一，启示录很直接地关乎天上的景象；第二 ，新教徒还保留启示录在圣经里（虽然路德曾建议要删掉，这是另一个话题） 。在我上周提到的启示录第六章里，祭坛下的殉道者的灵魂呼喊着祷告：「圣 洁真实的主啊，你不审判住在地上的人，给我们伸冤，要等到几时呢？」 Revelation—we're going to mostly look at, and the reason I'm looking mostly at Revelation is because A) it's pretty directly about heaven, and B) Protestants haven't removed it from their Bibles (although Luther thought they should, but that's another question). In Revelation 6, I mentioned this last week, the souls that are under the altar—the martyrs—cry out in prayer: O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before that will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?
于是有人告诉他们要再安息片刻，继续安息。 And they're told to rest a little longer, just keep resting.
但请注意，他们在天上经历的这种安息并不是失去意识。 But notice that this rest that they're experiencing in heaven is not a loss of consciousness.
他们在祈祷。 They're praying.
他们知道地上还有不义之事尚未被伸张，也被告知要继 续安息，直到与他们同作仆人的弟兄人数满足为止。 They're aware that justice has still not been done on earth, that there's still injustice, and they're told to continue to rest until the number of their fellow servants, their brethren, should be complete.
现今有些新教徒会认为，如果这是事实，那就说明在天上还会受苦。 Now, there are some Protestants who think if this is true, this means there's suffering in heaven.
我的回应是，你必须先弄懂启示录第六章，因为显然那里提到 有灵魂确知地上的不公，并为此祷告，祈求正义得以伸张。 I would argue, well, first you've got to make sense of Revelation 6, because clearly there are souls who are aware of injustice on earth and are praying about it and are praying for justice to be done.
那他们又怎会不在受苦中呢？ So how is that not suffering?
之所以如此，是因为即便在这样的情境中，他们依然在神里面得安息且心满意足。 Because they're content and at rest in God even amidst this.
天上本没有不公，所以若有人认为天上的快乐必须依靠神隐藏真相、使我们对这 世界的败坏一无所知，不然我们就无法快乐——这种对天国的看法并不恰当。 There are not injustices in heaven, and so the idea that happiness in heaven can only come from God hiding the truth from us—we can't know how bad things really are, we wouldn't be able to be happy—is a bad view of heaven.
我也不知道该怎么更好地表达了。 I don't know another way to say that.
在那样的观点里，神就像得用一点欺瞒的手段，才能让我们快乐；祂或许不直接欺 骗我们，却要误导我们，不让我们知道世界有多糟，就像神对你有所隐瞒似的。 It's a view of heaven where God has to be a little bit of a deceiver for us to be able to be happy, and He has to just kind of like maybe not lie to us but mislead us to not let us know how bad things are in that world, like God was hiding the truth from you.
我并不认为这样就能带来真正的喜乐，因为你心里总会觉得：「我想神在瞒着我什么。」 I don't think that would be happiness anyway, because you'd know, I think God's hiding something from me.
并且，如果你心里觉得神没有把完整的真理告诉你，那你要如何沉思神的丰满与真理呢？ And like, what would it even mean to contemplate God and His fullness and His truth while at the same time having the idea that God isn't telling you the full truth?
这听起来就像一个很奇怪的幸福观。 It just seems like it's a weird vision of happiness.
因此，圣徒的喜乐并不建立在只知道好消息，而坏消息都被隐藏的前提下。 So the happiness of the saints does not turn on them only knowing the good news and having the bad news hidden from them.
这些在祭坛下的圣徒既正享受喜乐，也看到坏消息的存在，同时仍然信靠神，并向神祈祷。 These saints underneath the altar are experiencing happiness, the bad news, and still trusting in God and praying to God.
他们并没有不快乐。 They're not unhappy here.
他们仍处在完美的荣耀之中。 They're still in perfect glory.
然而，他们依然渴望为他人带来美善。 They nevertheless desire good things for others.
这正是代祷的核心：那些享受一切美善的圣徒，也盼望我们能同享美善。 That's at the heart of intercessory prayer: that the saints who enjoy all good things want us to enjoy good things as well.
这些美善的请求也许是帮我找到钥匙，也可能是为殉 道基督徒伸张正义，或是介于这两者之间的任何事。 Those good things might be help me find my keys, it might be avenging the injustice done to martyr Christians, it might be anything in between those two points.
这在启示录第六章就提到。在路加福音第九章中，有一段经文让路德 认识到，他不能完全拥护灵魂沉睡说——而且他指出这点是正确的。 That's Revelation chapter 6. In Luke 9, you have one of the passages that persuaded Luther he couldn't just fully bind his soul's sleep—and he was right to point to this.
在主的荣显变像中，摩西与以利亚出现，来到耶稣面前；我们得 知他们在荣光中显现，并且谈到祂将在耶路撒冷要成就的事。 In the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah come to Jesus, and we're told they appear in glory and they spoke of His departure, which He was to accomplish at Jerusalem.
摩西和以利亚似乎是少数真正明白地上局势的人——他们知道耶稣正 在履行祂的事工，而且这事工会把祂带向耶路撒冷，走向十字架。 Moses and Elijah seem like some of the only people to actually get what's going on on earth—that Jesus has this ministry and that's leading Him towards Jerusalem, towards the Cross.
也就是说，他们对所发生的事的了解，比那些与耶稣同在的 门徒还多，因为门徒还不明白耶稣要往耶路撒冷去受死。 I mean, if anything, they're more aware of what's going on than the disciples who've been with Jesus are, because the disciples still don't get that Jesus is going to Jerusalem to die.
摩西和以利亚显然非常清楚这一点。 Moses and Elijah certainly seem to get that.
所以他们似乎对地上正在发生的事情一清二楚。 So they seem completely aware of what's going on here on earth.
然后我想转到一个也许会让人惊讶的例子上。 Then I want to turn to maybe a surprising example.
这段经文常被那些认为义人灵魂听不到我们的人引用，就 是撒母耳记上第28章。它之所以复杂，有几个原因。 This is one regularly used by those who think the souls of the just can't hear you: 1 Samuel 28. Now, it's a complicated passage for a few reasons.
第一，它牵涉到一个交鬼的女人——基本上就像女巫——而扫罗王去找了她。 One, it involves a medium—like a witch, basically—and King Saul goes to her.
她使用了一些奇怪的巫术，然后说：「我看见有神从地里上来。」 She does some weird magic stuff and says, I see a god coming up out of the earth.
扫罗问：「他是怎样的形状呢？」 Saul says, What is his appearance?
她说：「有一个老人上来，身披外衣。」 She says, An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped in a robe.
到这时，扫罗才明白那人是撒母耳。 At this point, Saul realizes it's Samuel.
于是他俯伏在地行拜礼。 He bows his face to the ground and does a beseance.
接着出现一句经常被人引用的话，我认为是被断章取 义了：撒母耳说：「你为何搅扰我，叫我上来呢？」 Then there's this line that regularly gets quoted, I think out of context, because Samuel says, Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
因此，如果你只看过这段经文，你也许会说：「是啊，你看……」 And so, reasonably enough, if this is the only Bible verse you read on this subject, you might say, Well, yeah, look.
撒母耳什么都听不到。 Samuel can't hear anything.
但我认为这句话其实是种责备，「你为何叫我？请我上来做什么？」 But I think this is a rebuke when he says, Why have you conjured me?
「你为何搅扰我，让我从下界被召上来？」 Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?
他并不是在说：「现在还很早，」 He's not like, It's early.
「你为什么把我吵醒？」 Why did you wake me up?
不是的，这是一个责问，而我们从后面的内容也能看出来。 No, this is a rebuke, and we know that from everything that follows.
因为扫罗向撒母耳解释，他这样做的理由是担心与非利士人的争战。 Because Saul says to Samuel that the reason he brought him up was because he's worried about this battle with the Philistines.
撒母耳提出了两点：第一，在第16到18节， 他告诉扫罗，神离弃了他，因为他没有忠于神。 Samuel does two things: First, in verses 16 to 18, he tells him that God has turned from him because he has not been faithful to God.
这正是撒母耳在世时就警告过的事，如今已经应验了。 This is what Samuel had warned during his lifetime, and now it's coming to pass.
接着，第二点，也更值得注意的是，在撒母耳记上28章19节，撒母耳对将来作出预言。 But then, secondly, and more remarkably, in 1 Samuel 28, verse 19, Samuel makes a prediction about the future.
他说：「耶和华必将以色列人和你一同交在非利 士人手里，明日你和你众子必与我在一处了。」 He says, Moreover, the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me.
耶和华也要把以色列的军队交在非利士人手中。 The Lord would give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.
换句话说：明天以色列会战败，而你和你的儿子都会丧命，这是因为你不忠于神。 In plain language: tomorrow, Israel is going to lose the battle, and you and your sons are going to die because of your unfaithfulness.
重点在于：这一切果然就照着所说的发生了。 Here's the kicker: all of that came to pass.
撒母耳经常被拿来当作不知世事的例子，但他其 实既知道地上的现况，也知道将来要发生的事。 Samuel, who is often invoked as someone who doesn't know what's going on, both knows the present and the future of what's going on on earth.
这就说明：不，他们确实知道。 So all of that points to: no, they really do know.
现在我想提到另外几处经文，不在新教的《圣经》 里，但在早期基督徒的《圣经》当中却有收录。 Now, there are a few other passages that I point to that aren't in Protestant Bibles, but they were in the Bibles of early Christians.
第一个在《巴录书》。 The first one is from Baruch.
连加尔文都曾认为《巴录书》是神所默示的经文。 Even John Calvin thought the book of Baruch was divine Scripture.
其中在第三章第四节写道：「主，全能的以色列之神，求你此时垂听以 色列亡者的祈祷，也垂听那些在你面前犯罪之人的子孙的祷告；他们没 有听从耶和华——他们神的声音，因此这些灾祸便常伴着我们。」 In there, it says in chapter 3, verse 4: O Lord Almighty God of Israel, hear now the prayer of the dead of Israel and of the sons of those who sinned before Thee, who did not heed the voice of the Lord their God, so that calamities have clung to us.
这段经文似乎很清楚地表明，那些在神的信仰中去世的人——（在旧约时代当然不会直 接说「在基督里去世」）——这些已去世的义人仍在祈祷，而神要垂听他们的祈祷。 It seems to be very explicitly saying those who have died in Christ, or died in the faith in God—and they wouldn't have said Christ at this point in the Old Testament—that these righteous dead are still praying, and God should listen to those prayers.
第二处是我上周提到的《马加比下》第十五章。简单说，犹大·马加 比当时正在大战前夕，去世已久的大祭司亚拿尼雅和先知耶利米向他 显现，为他代求，给他属灵的劝诫，还赠他一把为誓愿所用的宝剑。 The second one I already mentioned last week is 2 Maccabees, chapter 15. Short version: Judas Maccabeus, the leader of the Jewish people right before a major battle, is visited by the already departed high priest Ananias and the prophet Jeremiah, who intercede for him, who give him spiritual counsel, who give him a sword for the vow.
这些书在早期基督徒眼中也被视作神所默示的经文。 These books were regarded as divine Scripture by the early Christians.
看似相当正确，但那是另一个问题了。 And seemingly correctly, but that's another question.
但无论如何，即使有人把这些书从《圣经》中去掉，也不能说证据就不存在了。 But either way, if you remove those, that's no argument that the evidence isn't there.
这样只是去除了部分证据而已，其实仍有许多其他 证据表明圣徒能够听到我们的呼求并为我们代求。 You've just gotten rid of some of the evidence, but there's still plenty of other evidence that the saints hear us and intercede for us.
再回到《启示录》，这是我上周也提到的一段：那里记载了四活物与二十四位长 老伏倒在主面前，持着盛满香的金炉（或金碗），这些香就是众圣徒的祈祷。 Going back to the Book of Revelation, this is a passage I touched on last week as well: We have the four living creatures, the 24 elders who fall down before the Lord, and they're offering golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
这点很关键，因为这些——尤其这些长老，看上去是天上的人——不但在为我们祈祷。 And that's critical because here are these—especially the elders, seemingly human in heaven—who are not only praying for us.
让我们来到祈祷这一点。 Let's pray.
在《启示录》中，也借鉴到《多比传》的内容——它同样不在新教的《圣经》里。 Revelation is drawing on Tobit, another of the books not in Protestant Bibles.
因为《多比传》第十二章提到这是天使们，如同那些立在神面前的七位天使，会做的工作。 Because Tobit 12 talks about this is one of the things the angels do, particularly the seven angels that stand in the presence of God.
《启示录》第八章说，那些立在神面前的七位天 使确实如此，四活物和二十四位长老也是一样。 Revelation 8 says this is true of the seven angels that stand in the presence of God, but also true of the four living creatures and the 24 elders.
综上所述，经文其实相当清晰地表明，圣徒是有意识的，并且他们在为我们祈祷。 So all that's to say the biblical evidence is actually pretty clear that the saints are conscious and that they're praying for us.
虽然这并未解答全部疑问，因为它仍引出一个很好的问题：那这一切到底是怎么进行的呢？ That doesn't answer everything because it still raises, I think, a pretty good question, which is: How in the world does that work?
圣徒究竟如何听到我们的祈祷？ How do the saints hear our prayers?
假如同时有好几个人向同一位圣徒祈求，他们又如何一并听见？ How do they hear us if more than one of us approaches the same saint at the same time?
如果我们使用不同的语言向圣徒祈祷，那又怎么办？ What if we approach them in different languages?
如果我祈祷时声音很小，怎么办？ What if I pray really quietly?
如果我只是心里祈祷，在默念玫瑰经而不出声，怎么办？ What if I think my prayer and do my rosary without moving my lips?
所有这些情况究竟要如何运作？ How does any of that work?
在这里，我想给你三个建议。 And here I'm going to give you three words of advice.
请耐心听我说，因为我们这是在讨论人类的局限性，而这 些问题不仅与圣经有关，也牵涉到哲学及形而上学层面。 Bear with me, because notice in this we're asking a question about human limitations, and these questions are not just biblical, they're philosophical and metaphysical.
也就是说，我想举一个文章中的例子。 Meaning this: I'm going to give an example from an article.
马特·斯里克在CARM（一个新教护教学网站）上主张马利亚无法听到我们的祈祷。 Matt Slick from CARM, which is like a Protestant apologetics website, argues Mary can't hear our prayers.
他也知道《启示录》五章八节那段经文，却说天上 的圣徒献上祈祷并不表示他们能听到地上的祈求。 He knows that verse from Revelation 5, chapter 8. He says, Well, the saints in heaven offering the prayers doesn't mean they can hear the prayers of people on earth.
这就很怪异了，因为这段经文其实很显然意味着他们确实能听到。 Now, this is a weird objection, because obviously it does.
也就是说，如果他们将我们的祈求献上，却对我们的祈求内容一无所知，这怎么可能呢？ Meaning, if they're offering our prayers, how do they not know what our prayers are?
但好吧，他说，即使这个经文真的可以解读为天上的圣徒能听到祈 祷——（他并不主张这是合理的）——这也不代表马利亚能同时听 到全世界不同地方、不同语言、不管是默祷还是口祷的请求。 But fine, he says, Even if it were possible this verse could be interpreted to mean the saints in heaven can hear prayers—which I don't assert is legitimate—it still does not mean that Mary can hear the prayers of people all over the world simultaneously, both thought and spoken and in different languages.
我得承认，我觉得这个反对理由有点有趣。 And I have to admit, I find this objection kind of funny.
我是说，从某个角度讲，这是个好问题。 I mean, look, it's a good objection in one way.
我很高兴人们在问这些事情。 I'm glad people are asking this.
我很高兴人们在思考，因为这让我们更深入地看待天上的事，这总是好事。 I'm glad people are thinking about this because it does cause us to think more deeply about heaven, which is always a good thing.
但我还是觉得很好笑——想象一下，纵使经过两千年，马利亚也 没学会西班牙语，只能说：「No hablo」(我不懂)， But it is funny to me—to imagine that even with 2,000 years of time, Mary can't learn Spanish, so she's just like, No hablo.
「我不知道你在祈祷什么。」 I don't know what you're praying for.
事情当然不是这样运作的。 It doesn't work like that.
我们现在碰到的，是人不够理解或想象天国的局限。 What we have here is a human failure on our part to understand or envision heaven.
我想探讨马特·斯里克和许多新教徒——老实说也包括很多人——都带着的两个前提 假设：第一，他们认为感官——看、听等——在天上和在地上运作方式基本相同。 I want to look at two assumptions that Matt Slick and a lot of Protestants—and frankly, a lot of people—have: Number one, that sensation—seeing and hearing and the rest—works basically the same way in heaven that it does on earth.
也就是，你是用耳朵听别人说话，声波传到你的耳朵，光波传到你的眼睛。 You know, you hear things with your ears when somebody says them to you, the sound waves hit your ears, the light waves hit your eyes.
如果圣徒要知道我们的祈祷，似乎就必须要读我们嘴唇的 动作或仔细倾听，也许得把耳朵贴到云朵上才能听见。 And that if the saints are going to know what we're praying for, they have to either read our lips or listen real closely, maybe press an ear against a cloud to be able to hear us.
所以如果有两个人同时说话，那声音就会太吵，他们就没法听懂。 And so if two of us are talking at the same time, it's too loud and they can't understand.
如果仔细想想，这其实是对圣徒境况的一种错误认知。 That is, I think, if you think about it, a bad way of understanding what's going on with the saints.
第二个假设是，把时间——一种与身体、与物质属性 相关的事——看作在天上也跟地上一模一样地流动。 The second is this whole notion that time, which is mediated through the body—which is a physical property—that time works the same way in heaven that it does on earth.
我希望这样一提——就是说感官和时间都被看作非常 物质化的理解——就能让你有所警觉：「等等。」 Hopefully, me just mentioning that—hey, these are extremely physical understandings of both sensation and time—are enough to make you say, Wait a second.
这种反对意见似乎假设，圣徒的体验与我们在地上相差无几，只是位置稍微高一点而已。 This objection seems to suppose that the saint's experience is basically just like being, you know, in a slightly higher place than that's still on earth.
而这并不是什么恰当的理解。 And that's not a very good understanding.
我明白这里面的困难。 Look, I understand the difficulty.
正如圣保罗在哥林多前书第九章所言，当我们谈到天国时，说的是「眼未曾见 ，耳未曾闻，人心也未曾想到」的事，神已经为我们预备了超过我们想象的。 The difficulty is that, as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9, that when we're talking about heaven, we're talking about what no eye has seen and no ear has heard, nor the heart of man conceived, that God has prepared something beyond our wildest imagination.
因此，我们的想象力难免会不足，无法真正触及。 And so our imagination inevitably, invariably falls short.
这也是为什么要请大家多包涵，因为我只能说那样的看法是错误的。 This is why you've got to bear with me, because I can say this way is wrong.
你知道，它所描述的显然只是人对一个非常人间化空间的想法，完全不像一个属天之处。 You know, and that's like it's describing is obviously just a human conception of a basically human place and it is not like a divine place at all.
然而，就算你要我来解释，我的解释也肯定会不够周全，因为「眼 未见，耳未闻，心未想」，这也包括我的眼、我的耳、我的心。 But nevertheless, if you ask me to explain it, my own explanations are going to fall short because no eye has seen, including my eyes, no ear has heard, including my ears, no heart can see, including my heart.
从《启示录》我们知道，这远远超出我们的想象， 所以我只能尽力指向某些超越概念的属天实况。 That we know from Revelation that this is beyond our imagination, so all I can do is point past our concepts towards these heavenly realities.
因此，我会带大家看约翰一书第三章，在那里提到圣父：「你们看，父赐 给我们是何等的慈爱，使我们得称为神的儿女；我们也正是祂的儿女。」 On that way, I would point us to 1 John 3, which says of the Father: See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God, and so we are.
「世人所以不认识我们，是因为未曾认识祂。」 The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know Him.
「亲爱的，我们现在是神的儿女，将来如何，还未显明。」 Beloved, we are God's children now; it does not yet appear what we shall be.
「但我们知道，祂若显现，我们必要像祂，因为必得见祂的真体。」 We know that when He appears, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
过去我读这段经文时，一直以为这里的「祂若显现，我们必要像祂」是指耶稣降临。 Now, when I read that passage for a long time, I thought that when He appears, we shall be like Him was referring to Jesus appearing.
可如果你看上下文，会发现它其实是在说圣父的显现。 If you read the context, it's referring to the Father appearing.
然而，圣父并不会以荣光形态再次降临。 But the Father is not going to come back in glory.
那么这段经文到底是什么含义呢？ So what is this document?
这里所说的，是在天上仰望神，从而使我们发生转变。 It's about beholding God in heaven, transforming us.
我想眼下也许你能找到有人会说：「不，也许这里的祂指的是耶稣。」 Seemingly now, I think you could probably—I mean, maybe you'll find someone who says no, maybe that He should be Jesus.
可是在那两节经文中提到圣父的慈爱，并没有提到耶稣。 But in the context of those two verses talking about the love of the Father, it doesn't mention Jesus.
那段经文说，我们成为神的儿女，并且在祂显现时会被改变，像祂一样。 It talks about us being made children of God and then being transformed into being like God when He appears.
看起来是指圣父。 It looks like the Father.
为什么我要提到这些？ Why do I mention all that?
有两个原因：第一，我们知道圣徒如今在天上凝视神时所享受的，使他们变得近似于神。 Two reasons: Number one, we know that what the saints are right now enjoying as they behold God makes them godlike.
还记得《启示录》里，约翰两次要拜天使，因为那天使相比之下好像神一样。 Remember from the Book of Revelation, twice that John goes down to worship the angel because the angel seemed like a god in comparison.
还要想想隐多珥的女巫，当她看见撒母耳的时候，以为那是有神从地里上来。 Remember the witch of Endor, when she sees Samuel, thinks she's seeing a god rising from the earth.
可见圣徒的身上有某种荣耀，我们应该把这一点纳入考虑。 That there's something glorious about the saints, and we need to take that into account.
因此如果我们说：「哎呀，他们连西班牙语都不懂……」 And so if we're like, Well, they can't understand Spanish...
「他们无法同时听到两个人的祈祷。」 They can't hear two people at the same time.
这样就大大低估了圣徒的荣耀，因为当我们得见祂的真体时，就会像祂一样。 We have really underestimated the glory of the saints that we will be like Him when we see Him as He is.
好，这还留下一个问题。 Okay, that still leaves a question.
这是我提到那段经文的第二个原因：当我们看见祂时，圣徒要如何「看见」？ This is the second reason I raised that passage: When we see Him, how do the saints see?
圣徒要怎样「听见」？ How do the saints hear?
先不管他们是如何看见或听见我们的问题， Leave aside for a second the question how do they see or hear us?
让我们先问一个更根本的问题：他们要如何看见或听见神？ Let's ask a more rudimentary question: How do they see or hear God?
因为我们被告知他们确实能这样，是吧？ Because we're told they do, right?
我们刚刚也引了约翰一书第三章说，他们会得见祂；并且在八福里，耶稣也说…… You just heard 1 John 3 says they are going to see Him, but also in the Beatitudes, Jesus says...
那为什么这是个难题？ Why is that a problem?
有两个原因：第一，约翰福音第四章说神是灵，而提摩 太前书第一章说那万世之王、独一的神是看不见的。 Two reasons: Number one, because John 4 says that God is the Spirit, and 1 Timothy 1 says that the King of Ages, the only God, is invisible.
那看不见的神怎么又能被看见？ So how is the invisible God visible?
你也许会说：「好吧，祂显现自己。」 You say, Well, He reveals Himself.
但这样其实有点误解了。 But that misunderstands it.
祂并不是一个有形体的受造物，只是披着一件隐形衣。 It's not like He's a bodily creature that's just wearing an invisibility cloak.
神是纯粹的灵。 God is pure spirit.
从祂的本质来说，祂就是看不见的。 He is invisible by His nature.
祂的神性之所以不可见，是因为它并非由物质构成。 His divinity as such is not visible because it's not made of matter.
希望这样说明能让你明白。 Hopefully that's clear.
圣托马斯阿奎那在《神学大全》中就提出过这论点。 St. Thomas Aquinas makes this argument in the Summa.
他说，用肉眼或感官无法看到或感知到神；无论是 在今世还是在天上，都不能透过感官直接看见神。 He says God can't be seen with the eyes of the body or perceived with any of the senses, and He can't be seen or perceived with the senses here or in heaven.
对许多人来说，这可能相当惊讶，因为我们常以 为天堂基本上就像这个世界，只是要好一点。 That is, I think for many people, kind of a surprise because we have this idea that heaven is basically just like earth but like a little better.
但他指出，不，情况并不会是那样。 But he says, no, it's not going to be like that.
他认为，得了荣耀的身体并不比未得荣耀的身体更能看见神，因为这与是否有荣耀无关。 The glorified body is no more able to see God than the unglorified body, because it's not a matter of your lack of glory.
这并不是你看不见神的原因。 That's not why you can't see God.
你无法看见神并不是因为你罪孽深重。 The reason you can't see God is not because you're too sinful.
你无法看见神的理由在于神是纯粹的灵，而肉眼只能感知光与物质。 The reason you can't see God is because God is pure spirit, and the eye picks up light and matter.
它无法捕捉纯粹的灵。 It doesn't pick up pure spirit.
你现在并没有专门「看灵」的眼睛。 You don't have spirit eyes right here.
因此，我们无法以直接视觉把神的本质当作可见之物来观望。 So we don't behold the divine essence as an object of direct vision.
然而，圣托马斯阿奎那说，我们会以某种间接的方式看见神的荣光，因为我们会在人 的身体上看见神的荣光，尤其在「荣耀的身体」里，最典型的当然是基督的身体。 Nevertheless, Aquinas says, well, we will see the glory of God in one way indirectly, because we will behold the glory of God in bodies, especially in the glorified bodies, most especially in the body of Christ.
不过，如果我们要讨论如何不是借着间接方式，而是直 接「看见」神，那就要谈到「心灵」或「理性之眼」。 But then if we want to talk about how we see God not indirectly but directly, that's true at the eyes of the heart or the intellect.
正是这些在感知神。 That's what's perceiving God.
就像你领悟一个概念，会说：「哦，我明白了。」 The way you come to see an idea—you say, Oh, I see now.
你并不是说这个概念突然飘过来让你看见。 You don't mean this idea just floated by.
我看见神了。 I saw God.
就算你看到写着这个概念的文字，你看到的也只是文字。 The idea, even if you saw the idea written down, you're seeing the letters.
其实你并不是看见「概念本身」。 You're not really seeing the idea itself, right?
同理，对于神，你可以看到神显现的种种荣耀，但那是一种超越物质的观看方式。 Well, likewise with God, you can see the manifestations of God, like all the glorious things, but it's in that immaterial way of seeing.
就像你说：「啊，我懂了。」 The way you say, Ah, I see.
以同样方式「看见」神，只是规模更大、更不可思议罢了。 That's how you see God, but something bigger and better than that.
所以，虽然这已经超越了人的局限，但核心仍是理性。 So still break past the human limitations category, but it is the intellect.
正是那种属灵的感知，使你直接与神相见。 It is that kind of spiritual perceptions by which you see God directly.
因此在圣托马斯阿奎那看来，肉眼是透过神的受造物及 其圣徒间接看见神的荣光，尤其借着耶稣基督的身体。 So in Aquinas, the bodily eyes see the glory of God indirectly in His creation and His saints, most especially in the body of Jesus Christ.
而属灵的眼睛，也即「心灵之眼」，则能清晰、直接地看见神。 The spiritual eyes, the eyes of the heart, see God clearly and directly.
当然，对于这种直接看见神的样式究竟如何，神学家们仍有 许多争论——像司各脱派、托马斯派，以及帕拉玛派等。 Now, that second thing in terms of what that looks like is actually hotly debated by theologians—you know, between the Scotesians and the Thomists and the Palamites.
我们在这里不会深入到那个层次。 We're not going to go that deep on this question.
最关键的一点是，我想所有人都能同意这样一件事：你不可能只凭 肉眼、像戴上眼镜或望远镜一样，就能看透那无限的神的本质。 What matters is what I think everybody can agree on, which is you are not just going to have like glasses or binoculars and with your physical eyes behold the infinite divine essence.
这绝不是那么回事。 That's not what this is going to be like.
这与圣经《以弗所书》第1章的说法相符；保罗在那儿祷告， 愿我们的心眼被开启，好知道神在我们身上的呼召与盼望。 And that agrees with Scripture in Ephesians 1, where St. Paul prays that we'll have the eyes of our hearts enlightened to know the hopes which we've been called.
因此，我们所谈论的是「心中的眼睛」。 So the eyes of our heart are what we're dealing with here.
我为什么要提到这个？ Why do I mention that?
因为这指向一种完全不同的眼睛、不同的观看，也指向一种不同的光。 Because this points towards a different kind of eyes, a different kind of seeing, and also a different kind of light.
在诗篇、比如诗篇第36篇，就谈到所谓「荣光之光 」——我们在荣耀中所看见的，正就是这荣光之光。 In the Psalms, in Psalm 36, it says this is what's called the light of glory—that's what we see here in glory with the light of glory.
这就好比天上的圣徒之所以知道地上之事，之所以晓得你的祷告，就是因 为他们在观望神，并以一种我们很难想象的方式在神的荣光中看见一切。 Like the reason the saints in heaven know what's going on on earth, the reason they know about your prayers is because they're beholding God and beholding God in this way that is kind of hard for us to fathom.
但正是在仰望那是真理的神之时，他们才得以认识世界。 But in beholding God, who is truth, this is how they know the world.
因此他们能明白这一切。 They've fixed this.
这也是他们之所以知道该为哪些事情代祷的原因。 This is how they know what to pray for.
他们也就知道我们何时请求他们代求。 This is how they know when we ask for their prayers.
这也就是为什么你的祈祷是英语、西班牙语、希伯来语或希腊语都没有影响。 And this is why it doesn't matter if your prayers are in English or Spanish or Hebrew or Greek.
这丝毫不造成任何差别。 It does not matter make the slightest bit of difference.
无论你是大声、低声还是默祷，都不妨碍，因为他们所体验的一切，都是藉着神而来。 It doesn't matter if you're saying them out loud or really loudly or quietly or silently, because it's still through God that they're experiencing everything that they experience.
他们是在仰望神的过程中，于神的光中经历这样的荣耀。 It's in the beholding of God that they're encountering this glory in His light.
他们看见了光。 They see light.
这就是第一点。 So that's the first thing.
也许为进一步强化这一点，我们可以看《使徒行传》第二章中五旬节 的例子。记得在五旬节时，当时世界各地的人都聚集在耶路撒冷。 And then maybe just to hammer that point home, we can take an earthly example of Pentecost in Acts 2. Remember in Pentecost, people from all over the known world at the time were together in Jerusalem.
他们都能听见门徒说话，虽然那些人都是加利利人，但众人都能用自己各自的语言明白。 They were able to hear them talking, even though they were all Galileans, each in their own language.
因此，说所谓的语言障碍会过大而无法突破，这显然是错误的。 So the idea that these linguistic barriers are going to be too much seems to be false.
我想说的是：圣徒之所以能听见我们，正是因为这种来自 荣耀之光和对神的沉思，而不需要透过肉身的眼和耳。 That's what I say: the reason the saints can hear us is because of this light of glory, because of this contemplation of God, and none of this is in a bodily way with eyes and ears.
接下来要说的——也与此相关——就是时间的问题。 The next thing—and this is going to be a related thing—is about time.
你看，如果同时有两个人祈祷，而且他们的意向不同，该怎么办？ You know, what if two of us pray at the same time and we have different intentions?
比如有场橄榄球赛，而我们俩都请求同一个圣徒为我 们代求——或许这不是最好的例子，但你明白意思。 You know, there's a football game and we're both asking the same saint's seed for us—maybe not the best example, but you get the idea.
再如，有一场战事，我们同时向圣米迦勒或圣马利亚等圣徒祈祷，期望他们代求。 There's a battle, say, and we're both praying for the intercession of St. Michael or St. Mary or whoever at the same time.
那他们能同时听到这两人的祈求吗？ Well, are they able to hear both prayers?
答案是能，但我们必须更深入地探讨永恒的经验、时间 的经验，以及有时所说的「单纯的永恒」或「永世」。 Yes, but here we have to go deeper into the experience of eternity, the experience of time, and then what's sometimes called simple eternity or aeveternity.
我们先从「永恒」开始谈起。 Let's start with eternity.
在《出埃及记》第三章，当摩西在荆棘火焰前问神：「我要对百姓说是谁差我来的？」 In Exodus 3, when Moses is at the burning bush and he asks God, Who should I say sent me?
神启示了自己的名为「I Am Who I Am」（有一种翻译如此）。 God reveals Himself as I Am Who I Am—one translation.
我个人更喜欢译作「I Am Who Am」。希伯来原文是Y- H-W-H，有时音译为「Yahweh」或「Jehovah」。 I actually prefer I Am Who Am. It's the Y-H-W-H, sometimes translated as Yahweh or even as Jehovah.
这是神的名，一个既神秘又尊崇的名字。 This is the divine name, and it's a mysterious and magnificent name.
有时也简化成「I Am」，这提醒我们神不受时间限制。 It's sometimes shortened to just I Am. That should remind us of the timelessness of God.
我们一般会想着神是过去、现在、未来兼有，但对神而言并非如此。 It's not I was, I am, and I will be the way we think about God—that He was in the past, He is now, He will be in the future.
对神而言，祂只是「是」。 To God, He just is.
祂能够在过去、现在和未来同时说：「我是。」 He's able to say I Am in the past, I Am in the present, I Am in the future simultaneously.
这是神不受时间限制的特质。 This is the timelessness of God.
这是神的永恒。 This is the eternity of God.
而之所以如此，是因为神创造了一切时间，也创造了所有物质。 And this is because God is the maker of all time and the maker of all matter.
从科学的角度来说，我们也能谈到时间是一种物理性质。 Again, scientifically, we can talk about time as a physical property.
这是物质之间的相互关系。 It's a relationship between matter.
你看，如果你以接近光速的速度在移动，你对时间的体验就会和地球上的人截然不同。 So, you know, if you're traveling at nearly the speed of light, your experience of time will be radically different than the experience of time of somebody on Earth.
再者，如果你在梦里，没有受到外在身体环境的影响，你或许经历过与现实完全不同的时 间感——在梦里可能感觉过了一周，也可能只是一会儿，可实际上也就是一整夜的时间。 For that matter, if you're in a dream where you're not influenced by external bodily realities, you've probably experienced time being radically different before—where maybe it feels like you were there for a week or maybe it's for a few moments, but it was for the course of a night.
我们对时间的体验都是透过身体来感受的。 Our experience of time is mediated through our bodies.
创造时间和身体的神，不受物质或时间的束缚。 God, who is the maker of time and of bodies, is not bound by either materiality or time.
这点真的很有趣。 This is really interesting.
我们之所以谈到耶稣，是因为他完全成为人，在取 了人性时，就把自己带进了时间流动的世界里。 We talk about Jesus because, as He is also fully man, in taking on humanity He brings Himself into the world of temporality.
因此我们会说到孩童耶稣渐渐长大，日渐强壮，充满智慧。 So we talk about the child Jesus growing and becoming strong, filled with wisdom.
甚至可以说他在学习各样事物，这其实很令人着迷。 There's even a sense in which we can talk about Him learning things, which is really kind of fascinating.
然而，当我们谈到他的人性时，也不要忘记他还有神性。 But at the same time, in talking about His humanity, we don't want to forget His divinity.
所以，虽说他以人子的身份在成长，但我们也能根据希伯 来书十三章八节说，耶稣基督昨日今日直到永远不改变。 So even though as a human child He's growing, there's another sense in which we can say with Hebrews 13:8 that Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, tomorrow, forever.
这是因为他同样具有神性，而这神性是永恒的，不受时间所限。 Well, that's because He's also divine, and as divine, as eternal, He's timeless.
我很喜欢耶稣在约翰福音第八章里所说的话，当有人质问他：「你还不到五十岁，」 I love the way Jesus drives this home in John 8, when He's asked, You're not yet 50 years old.
「难道你见过亚伯拉罕吗？」 Have you seen Abraham?
耶稣回答：「我实实在在告诉你们，还没有亚伯拉罕，就有了我『I Am』。」这里的关键是「I Am」的超越时间性，他并没有说 「亚伯拉罕还没出生时，我就已经存在了」，而是「I Am」。 Jesus says, I tell you, before Abraham was, I Am. Notice it's that timelessness of the I Am. It's not before Abraham was, I was.
并不是那样。 Nope.
「I Am」。当他在约翰福音第八章说这话时，他就在当下 。即便我们距离那时已两千年，他依然超越亚伯拉罕而先在。 I Am. He is even now as He says these words in John 8. As we talk about these words 2,000 years later, He is even now also pre-existing Abraham.
对他来说，所有这些时刻都在同一时间面前展现。 All of these moments are simultaneously present to Him.
我们很难真正理解这一点，但耶稣在约翰福音第八章就是这么说的 。523年，哲学家波爱修斯曾在他著名的《哲学的安慰》里讨论 到，永恒指的是同时拥有无尽的生命，完全且完美地聚于同一刻。 That is a very hard thing for us to wrap our minds around, but that's what He's saying here in John 8. Boethius, a philosopher, talks about this in 523 in his famous work on the Consolation of Philosophy, that eternity is the possession of endless life, whole and perfect at a single moment.
我们谈到「永恒」时，并不是说神只是非常非常古老、永不会死而已。 When we talk about eternity, we don't just mean that God is really, really old and won't ever die.
虽然确实包含「祂无始无终」的意思，但远不止于此。 It certainly means He has no beginning and has no end, but it actually means much more than that.
因为你可以想象某个东西虽然无始无终，却还是以某种方式在时间中前行。 Because you can imagine something with no beginning and no end still traveling through time in some way.
而我们对神的理解并不是如此。 That's not what we mean with God.
我们是说祂超越时间，因为祂是时间的创造者，所有时区、时刻对祂而言都可同时地存在。 We mean that He is outside of time because He's the author of time, so that all of these parts are simultaneously present to God.
祂不会成长、变化，或者情绪波动，因为这些与「永恒」的本质相违背。 He can't grow and change or have a mood swing or any of these things because that's contrary to what it is for Him to be eternal.
接着把这和我们的时间体验作对比。 So contrast this with the experience of time.
神在永恒里，而我们在人间的时间性里。 So you've got eternity over here with God, you've got temporality—the experience of time—with us.
对我们而言，明天尚未到来，我们无法明了。 With us, tomorrow we don't yet grasp.
我们也已经忘记昨天，而这不仅是指遥远的未来或久远的过去， We've already forgotten yesterday, but not just far-off future or the far past of our own lives.
即使拿今天来说，你或许已经忘了清晨发生的部分事。 Even if you take today, probably part of the morning you've forgotten about.
你可能也不了解今晚会发生什么事。 You probably don't know exactly what's going to happen tonight.
我们还能说得更具体点：就此时此刻来说，你也不知道我接下来要讲什么。 We can get even closer and say this very moment: you don't know what I'm going to say.
我也许接下来就会说出什么很疯狂的话。 I could say something really crazy after this.
我可能已经忘记了我刚才提到的最后一点。 I might have already forgotten the last point I made.
过去与未来都不在我们的掌握之中。 The past and the future we don't possess.
我们只拥有那转瞬即逝的片刻，也就是「现在」这一瞬。 We only possess a fleeting moment called now, the present.
而且这个时刻小到不可分割。 And this moment is infinitesimally small.
当你意识到它时，它已经成为过去了。 By the time you notice it, it's already behind you.
你已不再拥有它。 You don't possess it anymore.
它已经渐渐逝去了。 It's already fading away.
这就是时间性的体验。 That's the experience of temporality.
有一件事值得思考：对于我们而言，现在这点时间是无 限微小的，我们甚至无法完整地拥有一整秒，对吧？ This is something worth pondering: with us, we have this infinitely small point of time that we don't even possess a full second unbroken, right?
就好比你无法在同一瞬间处于这一整秒的每个片刻里。 Like you're not in all of the second at the same time.
我希望这样说够清楚。 I hope this is clear.
听起来好像我在胡言乱语，但我没有。 It sounds like I'm on drugs, but I'm not.
我是在努力解释一件非常难以表达的事情。 I'm trying to explain something very hard.
当你说「此刻」时，你并不会得到一整分钟在同一时点里拥有它。 When you say the present moment, you don't get like an entire minute that you're just simultaneously present for.
也许在十五秒前你说了一句蠢话，希望能够收回。 You could have said something really dumb 15 seconds ago you wish you could take back.
那么「此刻」究竟有多少时间？ So how much time is actually in the present moment?
它小得无法分割，也难以分辨。 It's inseparably, indistinguishably small.
再小也小不下去了。 It could not be any smaller.
它几乎是无限地微小。 It's infinitely small.
这就是我们对「现在」所拥有的时间。 That's how long we have in the now.
与此相对，神所拥有的却恰恰相反。 In contrast, what God has is the exact opposite of that.
在祂面前有无限的时间与空间。 He has infinite time and space in front of Him.
对祂来说，「现在」没有边界。 There's no limit to what is His now.
我们的现在再也无法更小了。 Our now couldn't be smaller.
而祂的现在也无法更大。 His now couldn't be bigger.
我希望这样说够清楚。 I hope that's clear.
奥古斯丁讨论过这点：如果你认真思考神同时拥有一切当下这种概念，就 会明白，称神为不朽、不变、永恒、不死在本质上说的都是同一个事实。 Augustine talks about this: if you take this idea seriously of God having everything simultaneously present before Him, it explains why it means the same thing to say that God is incorruptible, unchangeable, eternal, immortal.
所有这些形容都指向同一超越时间的真相。 All of those are pointing to the same timeless reality.
对祂来讲，一切都同时存在于眼前。 Everything is present to Him.
因此祂并不在什么英雄旅程当中，是吧？ So He's not on a hero's journey, right?
意思是说，神并不会说：「嗯，如今我觉得我从创造人这件事上学到了很多。」 Like, God isn't saying, Well, now I feel like I've really learned a lot from creating humans.
我明白，某些时候经文会用非常人性化的语言去描述神，但我们也需要明白，那些只是 比喻手法，用来解释超越我们理解范围的事——即神是无限的、永恒的，所以祂不改变 ，也不会被改变，因为祂不可能在明天收到什么新资讯，从而在性情上发生变化。 I get there are times where Scripture speaks to God in that very human kind of language, but we should also be able to understand in that that these are metaphors trying to explain something that is kind of beyond our frame of reference—which is that God is infinite, He's eternal, and therefore He's unchanging and unchangeable because there's no new information He's going to get tomorrow that's going to cause a personality change in Him.
希望这能说得通。 Hopefully that makes sense.
如果真那样的话，他就不是神了，对吗？ And if it did, he wouldn't be God, right?
如果神能变好或变坏，那就说明他并非真正的神。 Like, if he was getting better or worse, he wouldn't be God.
正如奥古斯丁所说：「他并不是获得了智慧；他本身就是智慧。」 So as Augustine says, He didn't receive wisdom; He is wisdom.
在《上帝之城》中，奥古斯丁像波爱修斯一样，把这个与我们对时间 的体验相对照——对我们来说，未来尚未到来，而过去已成为过去。 In a City of God, like Boethius, Augustine is going to contrast this with our experience of time—that for us, the future isn't yet present now, and the past was.
但对神而言，所有时刻、一切时间都同时呈现在奥古斯丁 所说的「稳固且永恒的当下」里——神只有「现在」。 But to God, all of these moments and all moments are simultaneously present in what Augustine calls His stable and eternal presence—that there is only the now of God.
「I Am Who Am」的含意就是如此。 I Am Who Am means just this.
我知道我花了很多时间谈论永恒，但我们必须先确立这个概念，将 我们对时间的体验与神的永恒对比，然后再来问：「那么……」 I know I'm talking a lot about eternity, but we have to have this concept of contrasting our experience of time, God's experience of eternity, to then ask, Well, what then is...
那圣徒与天使又如何呢？因为我们从《传道书》得知， 神将永恒放在人心里，但我们永远不会像神那样永恒。 About the saints and angels, because we know from Ecclesiastes that God has put eternity into man's mind, but we're never going to be eternal like God.
我们永远不会是无始的，对吧？ We're never going to be unbeginning, right?
有时我们被描述为「永恒」，其实只是在说存留到永远，你明白的，就是不会终止。 We are sometimes described as eternal by which we just mean everlasting—you know, lasting forever.
但那只是单向的，对吧？ But that's only in one direction, right?
我们会向前推进，但我们有一个有限的开端。 Like we go forward, we have a limited path.
我们并非永远都已存在，但我们会一直存在到永远。 We didn't always exist, but we will exist forever.
因此，我们存留到永远，却不像神那样拥有所有时刻同时同在的状态。 So we are, but we're not eternal in the way God is where everything is simultaneously present.
那么，圣徒与天使所经历的是什么呢？ So what is the experience of saints and angels?
圣托马斯阿奎那对天使做了回答，而圣经中有关天使的记载也更 加清晰：就某种意义而言，天使的本性与神相似，不会改变。 Aquinas answers this about the angels, and it's actually clearer from the biblical evidence about the angels and it's clear in this way: With the angels, there's one sense in which they're like God and being unchanging as regards their nature.
他们不会变老，对吗？ They don't get older, right?
不会有年长或年轻的天使之分。 Like you don't have older and younger angels.
在天上也不会有什么天使要举行成人礼。 You don't have angels having like a bar mitzvah in heaven.
也不会有天使学开车之类的。 You don't have angels learning to drive.
他们没有成长或衰老的过程。 There's none of this process of growth and aging.
他们不会进行代谢。 They're not metabolizing.
他们不需要吃喝或经历身体上的转变。 They're not eating and drinking and going through bodily changes.
这些都不存在于天使当中。 There's none of that.
他们是纯粹的灵。 They're purely spiritual.
因此，在那方面他们是不变的。 So in that sense, they're unchanging.
但另一方面，在意志选择上，他们却是可以改变的。 But on the other hand, they are changing, or changeable, as regards choice.
我们怎么知道呢？ And how do we know that?
因为有的天使堕落成魔鬼，背叛了神。 Because the demons rebelled against God.
他们有过「之前」与「之后」——之前在天上，之后在地狱。 They had a before and after—before they were in heaven, after they were in hell.
所以，就「不受物质影响」方面而言，他们与神相似，而与我们 不同；但就「可能改变」方面而言，他们又像我们，而不像神。 So they're like God in one sense, unlike us; like us in another sense, unlike God in terms of changeability.
他们就处在两者之间的某个位置。 So there's somewhere in between.
阿奎那称之为「永世」或「单纯的永恒」，这正是介于时间和永恒之间的一种状态。 Aquinas refers to this as aeveternity or simple eternity, but it's this middle place between time and eternity.
你看，我花了点时间才讲到这里，因为听上去这确实有点奇怪。 See, it might take me a while to get here because that is a weird thing.
如果你只是随口说：「哦，是啊，介于时间和永恒之间的 某个中间状态，」那听起来确实很陌生，也很令人费解。 If you just say, Oh yeah, you know, the middle place between time and eternity, that sounds really strange, really baffling.
但是，如果你明白永恒意味着不变，而时间性意味着我们所处 的世界一直处在不断的、持续的、转瞬的变动之中，那么天使 ——以及显而易见，圣徒——所经历的，就介于这两者之间。 But if you understand eternity is changelessness, temporality is this world of constant, perpetual, momentary change, what the angels—and it seems clear enough—the saints experience is something in between those two.
天上的圣徒并不会变老。 The saints in heaven, they're not getting older.
他们经历了一种超越时间的状态。 They've encountered a kind of timelessness.
但同时，在抉择、行动、意志等方面，他们仍和我们有相似之处，而并非完全像神。 But at the same time, there's still some sense in which they're like us and not like God in terms of choice, action, agency, all of this stuff.
然而，对神而言，祂的当下不存在意志改变的问题。 Whereas with God, the present—like He's not changing His mind.
这些都不会发生在神身上。 There's none of that.
我希望这样讲能说明白。 So I hope that's clear.
但这也意味着，如果有人问：「在地上有两件事同时 发生，那马利亚岂不是不能同时听见两个祈祷吗？」 But it means that the question of like, These two things happen simultaneously on earth, so doesn't that mean Mary can't hear them at the same time?
这其实并不构成真正的反对理由。 It doesn't really work as an objection.
如果你觉得这太哲学化，太空泛，我想说两点：第一，你本身就提出了一个很抽象的问题。 If that's too philosophical, if that's too highfalutin, I would say two things: Number one, well, you're asking a highfalutin question.
如果你不满足于圣经对圣徒在天上代祷的证据，硬要追 问它是怎么实现的，你就已经进入哲学层面的提问了。 If you're not content to take the biblical evidence that the saints are in heaven praying and you want to know how is that possible, now you're starting to ask philosophical questions.
你就该预期会得到哲学性的回答。 You should expect philosophical answers.
第二，如果你想要一个更直观的图景，你可以先问自己：谁更有力量，圣徒还是撒但？ Second, if you want just like a clear image, you can just ask yourself this: Who's more powerful, the saints or Satan?
我为什么要这样问？ Why have I asked this?
因为哥林多前书第六章告诉我们，将来我们要审判天使，这就暗示天上有个等次。 Because 1 Corinthians 6 tells us that we're to judge angels, which suggests that there's a hierarchy.
我们知道天使比魔鬼更有能力，也知道天使是奉差遣到地上服 事的灵，而魔鬼像吼叫的狮子遍地游行，寻找可吞吃的人。 We know the angels are superior to the demons, but we also know the angels are ministering spirits sent forth to serve on earth, and the demons are prowling about like roaring lions seeking someone to devour.
这是圣彼得对魔鬼本身的形容。 That's what St. Peter tells us about the devil himself.
事实上，《启示录》形容撒但是那迷惑普天下的。 In fact, the Book of Revelation describes Satan as the deceiver of the whole world.
《启示录》十二章第9节这样说…… Revelation 12, verse 9 says...
所以我发现很多新教徒在某种程度上对属灵世界有一种非常奇怪、相当混乱的想象。 So I find that many Protestants have, on some level, a very strange and kind of confused vision of spiritual realities.
我要说的并不适用于所有人，但打一比方：假设有山姆和鲍勃两人，山姆说 ：「我要把我的灵魂交给魔鬼，」结果大多数人会认定魔鬼听得到这种话。 And I'd say this—and this isn't everybody—but if you can imagine Sam and Bob, and Sam says, I'm going to give my soul to the devil, okay, they're ready to say the devil hears that.
他就会现身，想要和你交易一番。 He's going to show up, he's going to try to make a deal.
但是若鲍勃说：「我要把我的灵魂交给耶稣，并请马利亚为我祈祷，」 But then Bob says, I'm going to give my soul to Jesus, and I ask Mary to pray for me.
这类新教徒反而会说：「噢，是啊，魔鬼能听到你，但马利亚 听不到。事实上，你向马利亚求代祷时，魔鬼也会出现。」 Then these same Protestants will say, Well, yeah, the devil can hear you, but Mary can't. And in fact, in asking Mary to pray for you, the devil is going to also show up over there.
为什么会这样？ Why?
我的意思是，如果我们相信光荣的圣徒比天使更有力量，而天使又比魔鬼更强，那为 什么魔鬼能在世界各地四处活动，而圣徒和天使就不行？这其中到底有什么逻辑？ I mean, if the idea is that the glorified saints are more powerful than the angels, who are more powerful than the demons, why can the devil do a bunch of stuff all over the world and the saints and angels can't? What logic is there in any of that?
那样的属灵观实在本末倒置，看起来好像魔鬼比任何存在都更有能力。 That vision of the spiritual realm is so topsy-turvy that it looks like the devil is more powerful than anybody else.
但那是与圣经完全背道而驰的想法。 That is a profoundly unbiblical kind of idea.
看看《启示录》，是天使之一的圣弥额尔把魔鬼赶出了天庭。 Go back to the Book of Revelation where St. Michael, one of the angels, kicks them out of heaven.
天使比魔鬼更加强大，而圣徒更被赋予能审判天使的地位。 The angels are more powerful than the demons, and the saints are given this position where they can even judge the angels.
所以，如果我们忽视了这点，忽视了天上圣徒和天使何等荣耀、何等有 能力，那我们就只剩一种扭曲且可怕的属灵观，需要我们去纠正了。 So if we've lost sight of that, if we've lost sight of how glorious and powerful the saints and angels in heaven are, then we're left with a disturbing and evil vision of the spiritual realm that we should seek to amend.
最后再分享一个想法——我知道我们刚才讨论得相当深入，也许你此刻还 处于一种不确定的状态，想着：「好吧，或许我对天堂的想象太过人性化 、太过局限于身体，没有考虑到那种荣耀之光的真实，或者说，没有考虑 到他们在仰望神时能够看见并听见下面世界里一切必要信息的方式。」 A parting thought on this—I know we've been going through some deep water, so maybe you find yourself in a place of agnosticism, saying, Okay, maybe my conception of heaven has been too human and too bodily and hasn't experienced the reality of the light of glory or the way that in seeing God they're able to see and hear everything they need to that's going on here below.
但我依然无法完全确定。 But I still am not really sure about it.
那好，我们就以贝丝的情况为例。 And okay, let's take Beth's case here.
我们无法用科学的方式达到百分之百的确定，对吧？无法证明他们一定能听见你。 We can't prove to a scientific certainty, right, that they can hear you.
也没有确切的经文直接告诉你：「天堂就是这样运作的，天使就是这 样工作、这样听你祈祷的」或「圣徒就是这样听见你的祈祷的」。 There's not just some Bible verse that says, Here's how heaven works and here's how the angels work and are able to hear you or Here's how the saints can hear you.
好，假设你掉进了一个坑里。 Well, imagine you fall into a pit.
你跟朋友在外面，结果跟他们走散，掉进了井里。 You're out with your friends and you get separated from them, and you fall down a well.
你在心里想着：「糟了、糟了、糟了，我现在在这口井的最底下。」 You're thinking, Well, well, well, I am at the bottom of this well.
我被困住了。 I am stuck.
我需要帮助。 I need help.
你会不会认真考虑：「或许我不该喊朋友来救我，因 为我无法百分之一百确定他们能听见」这样的念头？ Would you take seriously the idea, Maybe I shouldn't call my friends for help because I don't know 100% sure they can hear me?
大概不会吧。 Probably not.
你很可能会大声求救，因为你也没什么好损失的。 You'd probably call for their help because what have you got to lose?
同样地，在属灵层面，你当然应该直接向神祈祷。 So likewise spiritually, of course you should be praying to God directly.
你应该把祈祷带到耶稣面前，让祂成为你的中保。 You should go to Jesus with your prayers as your mediator.
但你也被教导要去找其他人。 But you're also told to go to other people.
如果我来到你面前，说：「嘿，你能为我这件事祈祷吗？」 If I go to you and say, Hey, can you pray for me for this?
我也没法用科学的严谨度确保你不会立马忘掉要为我祷告。 I don't know to a scientific certainty you're not going to immediately forget to pray for me.
但这并不足以成为我不来找你祈求代祷的理由，对吧？ That's not an argument against me going to you, though, right?
换句话说，即便这个反对意见比实际更有力度——在我看来其实并不 算有力——即便你对「我们不知道在天堂的『传真机』那里收到多少 祈祷」这一点质疑，也不足以构成反对向马利亚和圣徒祈求的理由。 So in other words, even if this was a much stronger argument than it really is—and it seems to me it's not a very strong argument—even if it was a much stronger argument about we don't know how many of these prayers are actually getting through on the fax machine in heaven, it still wouldn't really be an argument against praying to Mary and the saints.
因为我们在很多事上都无法保证百分百成功，这也包括属灵的层面。 Because we do all sorts of things where we don't know 100% they're going to be successful, including spiritually.
每次你去请求另一个人为你代祷，也许那人正深陷罪中，神也不会听他的祷告。 Every time you go and ask another person, maybe they're deeply mired in sin and God's not going to hear their prayer.
你并不知道这些。 You don't know that.
又有什么关系呢？ Who cares?
这并不是真正攸关的问题。 It's not the relevant question.
你甚至可以说：「或者他不但不会为我祈祷，反倒喊个邪灵来诅咒我。」 You even say, Maybe instead of praying for me, they're going to ask a demon to curse me.
「所以我就不该开口去寻求帮助吗？」 I shouldn't go and talk?
答案当然是否定的。 You just say no.
这些都是不合理的担心。 These are irrational fears.
这并不是停止做你该做之事的合理理由——你本当为众人代求（ 提摩太前书2:1），而我们也看到保罗会请求别人为他祈祷。 This is not a rational reason not to do the thing you're told, which is make intercession for all men (1 Timothy 2:1). And we see St. Paul asking other people for his prayers.
他也无法确定对方会不会真的为他祈祷，但从圣经得到的榜样就是：无论怎样都去做。 He doesn't know whether they're going to honor that request or not, but the model we have from Scripture is do it anyway.
所以，总的来说，即使你对圣徒和天使如何听到你的祈祷仍存 疑——这能理解，因为这确实让人困惑——也别因此受阻。 So all that's to say, even if you're unconvinced of how the saints and angels hear you—because understandably it's a confusing area—don't let that be a hindrance to you.
好的，那就引出最后一个反对意见，因为我能想象 有人会说：「嗯，也许这并非只是毫无用处……」 All right, that leads to the last objection, because the one thing I can imagine someone saying in response is, Well, maybe it's not just useless...
也许这实际上很危险。 Maybe it's actually dangerous.
因为如果你掉进井里呼救，结果出现的竟然是邪灵来折磨你，那确实会让你不想呼救。 Because if you've fallen into a well and you call for help, and like demons show up to torment you, then yeah, you probably wouldn't want to call for help.
那么，这会是一个合理的恐惧吗？ So is that a reasonable fear?
这是一个合理的担忧吗？ Is that a reasonable worry?
下面是杰夫·莱尔德所提出的论点。 Here's the argument from Jeff Laird.
杰夫·莱尔德在一个名为「That」的新教机构任职。 Now Jeff Laird works for a Protestant ministry called That.
这篇文章其实是写给一个青少年护教学网站的，他 在那个我有所耳闻但并不十分熟悉的机构里工作。 This is actually written for like the teen apologetics website, but it's a guy who works for a ministry I have heard of, even though I'm not familiar with this outreach.
而我挺喜欢他表达的方式。 And I like the way he puts it.
当然，我不同意他接下来要说的一切，但他说明得很清楚。 I mean, I disagree with everything he's about to say, but it's very clear how he says it.
他说神已经清楚表明，向亡者祈祷是严重的罪，然后他列出三处经文：申命 记第18章，撒母耳记上第28章，历代志上第10章。我们会一一来看。 He says God makes it clear that praying to the dead is a serious sin, and then he gives three passages: Deuteronomy 18, 1 Samuel 28, 1 Chronicles 10. We'll look at all three of those.
随后他提出三个主张。 And then he makes three claims.
他认为，凡是试图与除了神以外的灵体沟通的行为 ，都会带来三重后果：第一，无视神的直接命令。 He says any attempt to communicate with a spiritual entity other than God Himself does three things: Number one, it ignores the direct command from God.
第二，撇开真正最适合祈祷的对象——神自己。 Number two, it bypasses the best possible person to pray to in the first place—God Himself.
第三，它为仇恨神、悖逆神、并渴望伤害你的邪灵打开了一条沟通管道。 Number three, it opens a channel of communication with demons who hate and defy God and would love nothing more than to hurt you.
如果你读过圣经，我希望你明白，他所说的这些并不正确。 Now, if you've read your Bible, I hope you know none of what you just heard is true.
如果任何与灵界沟通的尝试都会产生那三重后果，那 么马利亚因为与天使加百列对话，就应该被斥责。 If any attempt to communicate with the spiritual entity does those three things, then Mary should have been rebuked for talking to the Angel Gabriel.
因为当他说：「蒙大恩的女子，你好，主和你同在」，马利亚并没有说：「走开！」 Because when he says, Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you, she doesn't say Get back.
她反而与天使加百列交谈。 She talks to the Angel Gabriel.
她与这灵界存有，也就是一位天使，进行了沟通。 She communicates with the spiritual entity, an angel.
撒迦利亚也是如此。 So does Zacharias.
亚伯拉罕也一样。 So does Abraham.
亚伯拉罕在献以撒的事上，甚至都没能亲眼见到什么显然的景象。 Abraham doesn't even see with the sacrifice of Abraham and Isaac.
他与他在天上无法看见的天使对话。 Abraham is talking to an angel he can't even see in heaven.
所以，说你无法与灵体交流的看法，完全违背圣经。 So the idea that you can't communicate with spiritual entities is completely, profoundly unbiblical.
而且往往是这些新教徒杜撰了一个新的规则，说 你可以跟天使或灵界对话，但必须对方先开口。 And it's often these Protestants who invent a new rule that you can speak to them, but only if they talk first.
可这完全是凭空捏造的。 That's completely a made-up rule.
没有任何经文根据。 There's literally no basis for that rule.
就好比，如果是我先说话就是来自邪灵，他们先说话就成了天使，为什么会这样？ Like, why is it demonic if I start talking and angelic if they start talking?
到底是怎么回事？ What's going on?
这只是个糟糕的论点罢了。 It's just a bad argument.
无论如何，我依然想看看他所引用的经文，因为要得出那 观点，他必须对很多圣经经文本身断章取义、错误使用。 Nevertheless, I want to look at each of the passages, because to get there you have to misread and misapply a lot of Scripture.
我们之前提到的就是那三处经文。 There were those three passages we talked about earlier.
第一处是申命记第18章。 Deuteronomy 18 is the first one.
这条诫命禁止以下行为：第一，不可将你的儿女 用火献上——不要把儿女当作邪灵的祭品献上。 This forbids the following: Number one, anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering—so don't offer your children as demonic sacrifices.
第二，凡是行占卜的人——也就是不要从事那些新世纪式的黑暗巫术之类的东西。 Number two, anyone who practices divination—so don't do weird New Agey dark arts.
第三，占卜者——这同样属于秘术范畴。 Number three, a soothsayer—this is again occult practices.
第四，占兆者。 Number four, an augur.
我知道在罗马，有占兆者会用动物内脏来预卜未来。 I know the Roman augurs who used animal entrails to foretell the future.
我不确定在希伯来背景下，这种做法是否相同。 I don't know if these are the same in the Hebrew context or not.
第五，术士，就是使用魔法的。 Number five, a sorcerer using magic.
第六，施咒者。 Number six, a charmer.
第七，交鬼的灵媒。 Number seven, a medium.
第八，巫师。 Number eight, a wizard.
第九，招魂者——也就是不要行唤起亡灵之事，不要使用邪术，不论规模大小都不行。 Number nine, a necromancer—so don't raise the dead, don't perform magic, wear a small or a large.
不要做灵媒，也不要施行巫术。 Don't be a medium and don't do sorcery.
现在很显然，这里所说的是各种秘术行为。 Now, obviously what's going on here is references to occult practices.
这显而易见，对吧？ Very obviously, right?
就好比，你不会因为禁止巫术，就说不许有人当医生。 Like, you wouldn't say you're not allowed to be a doctor because sorcery is prohibited.
巫士和医生都想用一些调配的药剂来解决疾病，只 不过一个会被称为药水，一个却是以邪术方式。 Both sorcerers and doctors try to resolve medical issues with concoctions, call them potions that they make.
其中一种在道德上是正当的——像路加就是一位医生。 One of those is morally good—St. Luke is a doctor.
另一种在道德上是恶的，也就是申命记第十八章里所禁止的。两者区别在哪里？ One of those is morally bad, the one prohibited in Deuteronomy 18. What's the difference?
一个使用邪灵的力量，另一个则没有。这正是申命记十八章10到11节 中所有被禁止事项的共同点：它们都借助了邪灵的力量去达成某种目的。 One of them is using demonic powers and one of them isn't. That's the common thing underlying all of the things prohibited in Deuteronomy 18:10-11: they're always relying on demonic forces to try to achieve some good.
所以，希望能看出这跟请求圣徒和天使代祷完全无关。 So hopefully it's clear why that doesn't have anything to do with asking the saints and angels to pray for you.
不过，让我们转到下一段经文：撒母耳记上第二十八章。我之前说过我们会回到这里讨论。 But we'll turn to the next one, 1 Samuel 28. I said we'd get back to this.
这是关于隐多珥的女巫，这里的情节就十分清楚了。 This is the witch of Endor, and it becomes really clear what's going on here.
因为如果你读那段经文，会看到扫罗说：「给我找一个交鬼的妇人来」。 Because if you read the passage, Saul says, Seek out for me a woman who is a medium.
他明确地去找了一个他知道是灵媒的人。 He's going explicitly to someone who he knows is a medium.
接着他告诉她该怎么做。 And then he tells her what to do.
他对她说：「求你用交鬼的法术将我所告诉你的人给我招上来。」 He says, Divine for me by a spirit and bring up for me whomever I shall name for you.
也就是说，他要她运用灵界的力量——不是去求问神来得知撒母耳对他 说什么，而是因为他说神不应允他的祷告，因此他就去求魔的势力。 So specifically, he's asking her to use spiritual powers—not go to God and find out what Samuel has to say to me, but because he says God won't answer his prayers, he's going to the devil.
他在投靠邪灵。 He's going to demons.
他的错并不在于他跟撒母耳说话。 The reason this is wrong is not that he's talking to Samuel.
神本来就想让撒母耳对扫罗说话。 God wants Samuel to talk to Saul.
错在于他是透过灵媒、运用邪灵的力量来找撒母耳。 The reason this is wrong is that the way he's getting to Samuel is using demons by using a medium.
这是非常明显的事实。 That's abundantly clear.
在历代志上第十章里，这一点就更加显而易见。莱尔德提出 的第三处经文提到，问题在于扫罗因着他的不忠心而死亡。 And that's even clearer in 1 Chronicles 10, the third of the three passages that Laird points to, which says the problem is Saul died for his unfaithfulness.
他对主不忠。 He was unfaithful to the Lord.
他没有遵守主的命令，也去求问交鬼的灵媒，寻求指示，却没有求问主。 He did not keep the command of the Lord and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance and did not seek guidance from the Lord.
所以，要把这应用到马利亚和圣徒身上，就得假设当你念玫瑰经时，等 同拿出通灵板，让马利亚来回答你一些问题，藉此绕过神去获得答案。 So to think this applies to Mary and the saints, we have to imagine that when you pray a rosary, it's like you've gotten a Ouija board out and you're asking Mary to answer some questions for you so you can get around God.
从更专门的角度来看，这其实非常接近另一个议题。 In technical terms, this is really close to another point.
我提到过杰夫·莱尔德在「Got Questions」工作， 而「Got Questions」有时也会出一些不错的文章。 I mentioned Jeff Laird works for Got Questions, and Got Questions actually occasionally has good articles.
其中有一篇就在探讨「神迹」和「魔术」之间的区别。 One of those is on the difference between miracles and magic.
当然，学者们对于这个定义上的差异可能会有不同看法，但就犹太和基督信仰的脉络而言， 这里有一个相当好的区分：某些人可能把这两个词当作同义，但它们实际有极大的差别。 Now, scholars will disagree about like the definitional differences between them, but in the Jewish and Christian context, a pretty good difference is this one: Those words might mean the same thing to some people, but there's actually a vast difference between the two terms.
说耶稣行神迹是恰当的。 It is proper to say that Jesus worked miracles.
若把祂所行的归为魔术则是不对的。 It would be wrong to attribute His works to magic.
基本而言，魔术与神迹在本源上不同。 Basically, magic and miracles differ in their source.
魔术的力量要么出于人力，要么出于邪灵。 Magic has either a human or demonic source.
神迹则是神的超自然作为。 Miracles are a supernatural work of God.
更明确地说，所谓的魔术其实就是依赖邪灵的力量。 I'd be even more specific and say magic has a demonic source specifically.
如果你在表演戏法或纸牌把戏，那并不是道德层面的问题。 If you're doing magic tricks or you're just doing card tricks, that's not a moral issue.
我们会称之为「魔术」，可那并不是圣经语境里的「魔术」。 We call that magic, but that's not magic in the biblical sense.
在圣经的角度，「魔术」指的是不倚靠神，却靠与神无关的灵界势力来达成某种目的。 Magic in the biblical sense is trying to achieve something by going around God, by relying on spiritual powers that are not of God.
也正因为这样，你才会为邪灵打开通路，因为你想绕开神行事。 That's where you're opening the doorways to the demons because you're trying to get around God.
因此请注意，魔术跟神迹看上去有时会非常相似。 So notice magic and miracles can look very similar.
这一点在经文中很明确。 This is clear from Scripture.
《出埃及记》第七章：神要摩西吩咐亚伦把手杖变为蛇，好让法老相信并放走祂的百姓。 Exodus 7: God tells Moses to tell Aaron to turn his rod into a serpent to convince Pharaoh to let His people go.
结果亚伦照着神的吩咐行了这事。 And sure enough, Aaron does just that at God's command.
这并不是魔术，而是神迹。 This is not magic; this is a miracle.
但法老召唤智慧人和术士来，他们也用秘术行了同样的事。 But then Pharaoh summons the wise men and the sorcerers, and the magicians of Egypt did the same by their secret arts.
如此，《出埃及记》第七章展示了两件事：一件完全出自 神、由神吩咐并透过神而行的——即亚伦所行的神迹。 So you have demonstrated there in Exodus 7 that there can be one thing that is of God, commanded by God, clearly working through God—that's Aaron's miraculous ministry.
与另一件受秘术、幽暗势力或黑暗灵界力量支配，所做出来的效果看似相同。 Producing an identical looking effect to a thing brought about through the occult, through dark arts, through dark spiritual powers.
希望这样说明够清楚。 So hopefully that's clear.
就像你头痛时，你可能找巫医，也可能找真正的医生，也许他们都能治好你的头疼。 Just like if you have a headache, you might go to a witch doctor, you might go to a real doctor, and maybe they both cure your headaches.
可其中一个是借助人的方法，而另一个却依托邪灵的力量。 But one of them is doing it through human agency, and one of them is doing it through demonic agency.
问题在于方式，而不单在于所做之事本身。 That's the problem: not what's done, but how is it done.
如果那做法涉及邪灵，就不要去做。 And if the how involves demons, don't do that thing.
所以我们正在反对的正是这种情况。 So that's what's objected here.
那么回到经文这边——或者说回到莱尔德的反对意见。 So go back then to the passage—Laird's objection rather.
他的主张是说，凡与除神以外之灵沟通，都会带来三重后果。 We're told that any contact with a spiritual entity other than God Himself does three things.
先留意一下，这些经文里从来没有说过「你不可以跟邪灵联络」。 Now, first notice there's no reference to that you can't contact demons.
他所提到的三处经文中所禁止的一切，没有一条是关于「不可跟天使交谈」的。 None of the things prohibited in any of the three passages he mentioned have anything to say about talking to angels.
相反，我们在整本圣经里常常看到人和天使说话的例子。 We see people talking to angels throughout the Bible.
也没有一条经文禁止与天上的圣徒交谈。 None of them have anything to say about talking to saints in heaven.
换言之，这种禁止根本不存在。 Those prohibitions literally do not exist.
所以，第一点他说这是违背神的直接命令，但实际上并没有哪条命令禁止这一点。 So number one, we're told it ignores a direct command from God, but that direct command literally does not exist.
第二，他说这绕过了最适合祈祷的对象——神自己。但其实并没有。魔术和神 迹的分别就在于：一个是「与神、透过神」而行，另一个则是「绕过神」。 Second, we're told it bypasses the best possible person to pray to in the first place—God Himself—but it doesn't. The difference between magic and miracles is one works with and through God, one works around God.
这就是为什么「荣耀之光」的概念非常重要——圣徒之所以能 听见你的祈祷并为你代求，是因为他们与神同在，与神合一。 This is why that light of glory stuff matters, because the reason the saints can hear your prayers and offer prayers for you is that they're in union with God.
如果圣徒不在天上，而是在地狱，那么自然没法为你代求。 If the saints weren't in heaven—right, like if they were in hell—they would not be able to intercede for you.
所以每个公教徒都明白这一点，不管能不能明确说出来。 So every Catholic knows this, whether they can articulate it in that way or not.
他们请求代祷的，唯有那些在天上的人，也就是只走正确的方向。 The only people they're trying to pray to are the ones who are in heaven, meaning they're only going the right direction.
并没有往错误的方向去。 They're not going the wrong direction.
也许你会问：「哦，那我们怎么知道他们真的在天上呢？」 Now you might say, Oh, how do we know they're really in heaven?
那是另外一个问题。 Separate question.
基本上，神不会因为你无心之举就让你召来邪灵，就像你在井里喊「杰夫！杰夫， 救我！」时，神也不会说：「哦，因为杰夫其实在地狱，所以只好派个邪灵去。」 Basically, God's not going to accidentally let you summon a demon any more than if you're in a well and you call out, Jeff, Jeff, help me!
也许杰夫已经死了，还在地狱，但你并不知道。 But Jeff's now dead in hell, and he didn't know that.
他死后进了地狱。 He just died and went to hell.
但这并不代表「哦，你不知道杰夫在地狱，还向他求 救，就得派邪灵来折磨你」——并不是这样运作的。 That doesn't mean, Oh, now a demon needs to come into your life because you didn't know Jeff had died and gone to hell and you asked him for help.
事情并非如此。 It doesn't work like that.
神也不会用这种怪异的法理陷阱来愚弄你。 God's not trying to trick you in some weird legalistic trap.
所以，如果你对此格外谨慎，就会理解为什么我们要正式辨定某人为圣徒。 So this is also a good reason to pretty canonize saints if you're really scrupulous about this.
不过我们也知道确实有圣徒在天上，因为希伯来书第十一与十二章告诉我们 ，有这么一大群见证人在四周围着我们，在我们奔跑天路时为我们加油。 But we know that there are saints in heaven because we're told that we have this cloud of witnesses in Hebrews 11 and 12 that are surrounding us and cheering us on as we run the race.
所以「向观众呼喊『给我加油』」是没问题的。 It's okay to play to the crowd and say, Hey, cheer me on.
我在这里需要帮忙。 I need some help here.
你这么做并不是在召唤邪灵。 You're not summoning demons when you do that.
这样做能奏效的唯一原因，正是因为这些圣徒与神自己合一了。 In doing that, the only reason that works is because of their union with God Himself.
我在上支视频提过，但我再强调一次：固然，这种代祷途径比 直接向神祈求在效率上不如后者，但祈祷并不在于追求效率。 Now, I mentioned in the last video, but I'll stress this again: it's true that this is less efficient than just going to God, but prayer is not about efficiency.
我知道这么一个例子——当时在一家灵恩派教会——有位姊妹半夜醒来，强烈 感到需要替某个人祈祷。那人并不是完全的陌生人，但她也不是和他特别熟。 I know of a case—it was actually at a Pentecostal church—where she woke up in the middle of the night and felt the strong need to pray for a stranger, or not a stranger, like someone she didn't know super well.
她就开始为那人祷告，第二天才发现那人遇到一些医疗上的急况或突发状况。 Started praying for them and then found out the next day they'd had some sort of medical emergency or medical scare.
类似的事例时常会发生。 These kind of stories happen.
我想很多人都有类似的经历，或者认识有类似经历的人。 I think a lot of people have these experiences or maybe know someone who's had these experiences.
你心里突然感动要为某人祷告，然后事后才发现，你为他祷告其实是大有原因的。 You feel moved to pray for so-and-so and then you find out later there was a reason why you were praying for them.
这说明，好比出现了这个问题，然后神让你得知，目的是让你向祂祈祷，介入这件事。 That means that it's like, Well, here's this issue, and then God brought it to you to pray to Him about the issue.
这是直接的吗？ Is that direct?
不是。不过这件事就是这样运作的。 No. But that's how these things work.
在创世记里，你还记得神对亚伯拉罕说，要他为罗得，以及所多玛和蛾摩拉代求吗？ In Genesis, remember when God goes to Abraham to have him intercede for Lot and for Sodom and Gomorrah?
如果神直接跳过亚伯拉罕，自己行事，其实效率会更高。 That's less efficient than if He were just to cut Abraham out of the loop and do what He was going to do.
在这里，效率并不是我们该衡量的标准。 Efficiency is not the right method to look at here.
所以，它并没有绕过最适合祈祷的对象——它依赖于神的存在。至于 说它是否会因此为邪灵开启什么渠道，这个想法本身就是错误的。 So the fact that it doesn't bypass the best person possible to pray to—it relies on the existence of God—and the final thing about it opening a channel of communication with demons, it's just wrong.
马利亚与天使加百列说话时，也没有为魔鬼敞开什么通道，来占据她的身体。 When Mary is talking to the Angel Gabriel, it doesn't give the devil permission to come and inhabit her body.
事情并不是这样运作的。 That's not how that works.
在某些新教圈子里，这只是一种奇怪的「反灵性」 倾向，一部分原因来源于他们渴望避免接触邪灵。 This is just a strange anti-spiritualism in certain parts of Protestantism, and it's born in part out of a healthy desire not to consult demonic stuff.
可大多数灵体其实是善的，对吧？ But most spirits are good, right?
就像《启示录》中说三分之一的星辰从天上坠落，通常被理解为三分之一的天使背叛了神。 Like a third of the stars fall from the sky in Revelation, which is understood frequently to mean that a third of the angels rebel against God.
所以大多数灵体其实是善的。 So most spirits are good.
同理，你不会因为世上存在杀人犯，就说「别信任你的邻居」，就因此把自己与邻居隔绝 。所以我们也不应该因为害怕，就摆出完全「反灵性」的态度，大部分灵体其实是好的。 So just like you wouldn't say, Don't trust your neighbor because there are murderers out there, and so we should shut ourselves off from our neighbor, you would also want to say we don't want to have just an anti-spiritual attitude because most spirits are good.
当然，这不代表我们就要接受所有灵体，是吧？ Now, that doesn't mean accept all spirits, right?
要分辨诸灵。 Test the spirits.
这也同样适用于所有灵，不管是天使还是邪灵，有堕落的天使，也有未堕落的天使。 That's also true of the literal spirits—they're good and bad angels, they're fallen and unfallen angels.
但并没有哪条规定说不可以与他们交谈。 But there's no rule against talking to them.
也没有哪条规则禁止与你在天上的圣徒交谈。 There's no rule against talking to the saints in heaven.
这是某些新教徒自己杜撰的一种律法主义观念。 This is a made-up kind of Protestant legalism.
好的，最后一点——哦，对了，我还没提到这部分。 Okay, the last thing—oh, yeah, I didn't even mention this part.
他们所谓的问题是「求问亡灵」。 It's about consulting the dead.
关于这个话题，我就想引用耶稣在马可福音12章24到27节里的话。祂回答 撒都该人说：「你们所以错了，岂不是因为不明白圣经，不晓得神的大能吗？」 I'm going to just end with Jesus' words on the subject in Mark 12:24-27. In responding to the Sadducees, He says: Is not this why you are wrong, that you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God?
「至于死人复活的事，难道你们没有读过摩西书上荆棘篇所载的吗？神对摩西说：『 我是亚伯拉罕的神，以撒的神，雅各的神。』神不是死人的神，乃是活人的神。」 As for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, 'I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob'? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.
「你们是大错了。」 You are quite wrong.
所以如果有人说公教徒是在向死人祈祷，耶稣就会 说：「你错了」，因为天上的圣徒乃是活着的。 So if you tell me Catholics pray to the dead, Jesus tells you you are quite wrong, because the saints in heaven are alive.
因为神是活人的神。 Because God is the God of the living.
这在马可福音第十二章里就明明写着。所以这并不是去求问亡灵。 It's right there in Mark 12. So this isn't consultation with the dead.
这也不是招魂之术。 This isn't necromancy.
我们并没有把死人唤起。 We're not raising the dead.
完全没有这些事。 There's none of that.
从某种角度说，圣徒确实「死了」，因为他们肉身去世了；但在 更真实的意义上，他们比你我更「活着」，因为他们在神面前。 The saints—in one sense, you can talk about them being dead because they bodily died—but in the real sense of the term, they're more alive than you and I are because they're in the presence of God.
所以问题不在于「我们该不该跟死人说话？」 So then the question isn't Should we talk to the dead?
而是「那些与神至为亲近的人，是否值得我们信赖，好让他们为我们代祷？」 It's Should those who are closest to God be people that we trust to pray for us or not?
当你用这样的方式重新思考，明白他们并不是死的，而是活着； 当你按照耶稣的教导去理解，而不是被新教对灵界的迷信影响时 ，你就会发现，向圣徒和天使祈祷在本质上其实非常符合圣经。 And when you reframe it that way, by realizing they're not dead but alive, when you reframe it in light of what Jesus says instead of Protestant superstitions about spirits, then you realize that praying to saints and angels is profoundly biblical in its orientation.
这是在严肃看待「基督的身体」这一概念，也认真看待天上的圣徒是活着并为我们 代求，以及他们能够听到我们的祈求——即使我们不一定完全明白其中的原理。 It's taking seriously the notion of the Body of Christ, taking seriously the notion that the saints in heaven are alive and interceding for us and that they're able to hear us, even though we don't maybe necessarily understand how that looks.
因为「眼未曾见，耳未曾闻」，我们知道他们正在经历某种极其荣耀的事。 Because eye has not seen and ear has not heard, we know they're experiencing something glorious.
我们也知道，他们因向着基督而变得近似于神。 We know they're godlike in their orientation to Christ.
所以，基于这一切，如果你过去从未这样做过，我非常鼓励你，真的养成一个来 到圣徒面前、请求他们祈祷的习惯，因为这对灵命非常有益，也对你有好处。 So given all this, I strongly encourage you, if you've never done it, to really cultivate a habit of going to the saints and asking for their prayers, because it's spiritually healthy and good for you.
而那些反对意见在很大程度上都是出于迷信。 And the arguments against it are largely superstitious.
这里是「无耻教皇党」，我是乔·艾施迈尔。 For Shameless Popery, I'm Joe Heschmeyer.
希望你会喜欢。 Hope you enjoy.
期待你的评论。 Look forward to your comments.
愿神赐福你。 God bless you.
感谢你收听「无耻教皇党」，这是由 Catholic An swers Podcast Network 制作的节目。 Thank you for listening to Shameless Popery, a production of the Catholic Answers Podcast Network.
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