以下节目由阿拉法与俄梅戛事工有限公司制作，受美国版权法及其国际条约保护。 The following presentation is a production of Alpha and Omega Ministries Incorporated and is protected by copyright laws of the United States and its international treaties.
未经阿拉法与俄梅戛事工有限公司明确书面许可，禁止复制或传播本节目。 Copying or distribution of this production without the expressed written permission of Alpha and Omega Ministries Incorporated is prohibited.
我要为大家介绍我亲爱的朋友詹姆斯·怀特。 I'm going to introduce my dear friend James White.
首先，在我介绍美国教宗联合会的阿诺德·皮尔斯纳之前——他每年都 在这场辩论中给予我很大帮助——让我介绍詹姆斯·怀特博士，他是阿 拉法与俄梅戛事工的主任，这是一个位于亚利桑那州凤凰城的改革宗福 音派基督教护教组织，他同时也是凤凰城改革宗浸信会的牧师。 First of all, before I introduce Arnold Pilsner of Americans United for the Pope, who is a great help to me in this debate, as he is every year, Dr. James White is director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, a theologically Reformed evangelical Christian apologetics organization in Phoenix, Arizona, where he also pastors the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church.
詹姆斯在多所神学院担任教授，著有近20本书，包括《罗马公教争议》、《马利 亚：另一位救赎者》和《危险的电波：驳斥哈罗德·坎平，捍卫基督的教会》。 James is a professor at several seminaries and the author of almost 20 books, including The Roman Catholic Controversy, Mary: Another Redeemer, and Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended.
由于他在新约希腊文方面的学术造诣，詹姆斯被任命为新美国标准圣经更新版的评审顾问。 Due to his scholarship in New Testament Greek, James was appointed critical consultant for the New American Standard Bible update version.
他经常作为嘉宾出现在全国性广播节目中，如汉克·汉尼格拉 夫主持的「圣经答疑人」和珍妮特·帕夏尔的「美国」节目。 He is heard frequently as a guest on national radio broadcasts such as The Bible Answer Man with Hank Hanegraaff and Janet Partial's America.
女士们先生们，这就是詹姆斯·怀特博士。 Here he is, ladies and gentlemen, Dr. James White.
顺便说一句，你们很多人可能注意到怀特博士在过去七年里的变化。 By the way, many of you may have noticed a metamorphosis in Dr. White over the last seven years.
在座有多少人参加过七年前的第一场辩论？ How many here were at the first debate seven years ago?
顺便问一下，今晚有多少福音派新教徒在场？ By the way, how many evangelical Protestants do we have here tonight?
今晚又有多少罗马公教徒在场？ And how many Roman Catholics do we have here tonight?
哦，很好。 Oh, very good.
看起来人数差不多。 Looks equal.
看起来人数很平均，对吧？ Looks pretty equal, right?
看起来人数非常平均。 Looks very equal.
我第一次见到怀特博士时，他还是个瘦小的人。 When I first met Dr. White, he was a mere slip of a man.
你说是不是，他的身材相当瘦小？ He was quite small, would you say, in stature?
有些人甚至说他体弱。 And some might even call him frail.
他第一次来这里的时候，看起来就像范泰尔图书馆的管理员。 When he was first here, he sort of looked like the curator of the Cornelius Van Til Library.
现在他看起来就像是美国通缉要犯节目上那种嗑药的连环杀手。 Now he looks like a steroid-crazed serial killer that you'd see on America's Most Wanted.
你知道，这很有趣。 You know, it's kind of funny.
我们已经做了八年的朋友，当我第一次见到他时，他是个毫无 幽默感的人，枯燥得很，实际上很无趣，但一直都很聪明。 We've been friends for eight years now, and when I first met him, he was a humorless man, dry as a bone, quite dull actually, but always brilliant.
这一点我一直承认。 I always granted him that.
但这些年来，他的体格变得相当令人印象深刻甚 至有点吓人，而且他还真的培养出了幽默感。 But over the years, he's bulked up to a rather impressive and frightening stature, and he's actually developed a sense of humor.
所以我意识到在这段友谊中，我能够分享给他一些他吸收的东 西，但我在想在这种互惠关系中，他给予的部分在哪里呢？ So I recognize that in this friendship, I've been able to share with him some things that he's absorbed, and I'm wondering where's the give in this give-and-take relationship?
我是说，为什么我还是个笨蛋？ I mean, why am I still a moron?
我不明白这一点。 I don't understand that.
好吧，尽管他这么贪心，我还是喜欢他，而且我对这场辩论很兴奋。 Well, greedy soul that he is, I still love him, and I am excited about this debate.
在我介绍美国教宗联合会的阿诺德·皮尔斯纳之前——他将介 绍帕特里克·马德里德——我想说几句关于帕特里克的话。 Before I introduce Arnold Pilsner of Americans United for the Pope, who will introduce Patrick Madrid, I just want to say a word about Patrick.
尽管我是一个坚定的新教徒，这一点是毋庸置疑的。 Despite the fact that I am a committed Protestant, there are no two ways about it.
事实上，就像我之前说过的，我希望每个公教徒离开这里时都成为新教徒，每 个新教徒都成为加尔文主义者，每个加尔文主义者都成为改革宗浸信会信徒。 In fact, as I've said before, it is my hope that every Catholic leaves here a Protestant, every Protestant leaves here a Calvinist, and every Calvinist leaves here a Reformed Baptist.
这是我的愿望。 That is my wish.
但尽管如此，我在这里有一点同情的困扰，因为帕特里克·马德里德—— 这不是谎话——是在9月11日第一个打电话来问候我是否平安的人。 But despite that fact, I have a little bit of a problem with sympathies here because Patrick Madrid—this is not a lie—was the first person on September 11th to call me to see if I was okay.
是第一个人。 Very first person.
不过我必须快速补充一点，詹姆斯·怀特是11月 11日第二个打电话给我的人，我记得是这样。 And I must quickly add, though, that James White was the second person who called me on November 11th, I believe.
事实上，谈话是这样的：「嘿克里斯，你知道那些东西吗，我有去纽约旅行时用的冬装？」 In fact, the conversation went something like this: Hey Chris, you know that stuff, I have the winter clothing that I have for my trips to New York?
「你还留着吗？」 You got that still?
「是的。」 Yeah.
你可能想把那些还回来。 You might want to send that back.
哦，你没事吧？ Oh, you're good?
那就好。 That's good.
好吧，不管怎样，我得走了。 Well, anyway, I got to go.
再见。 Bye.
总之，是的，詹姆斯是个亲密的朋友，当然，他那天也很快就关心我的情况。 Anyway, no, James is a dear friend, and of course, he was also very quick to point out how I was doing on that day.
但我想介绍阿诺德·皮尔斯纳，他将为大家介绍帕特里克·马德里德。 But I would like to introduce Arnold Pilsner, who will be introducing to you Patrick Madrid.
阿诺德·皮尔斯纳是美国教宗联合会的主任。 Arnold Pilsner is director of Americans United for the Pope.
他每年都在这些辩论中都是很宝贵的朋友，帮助组织公教会这一方的工作。 He's been a very valuable friend in these debates every year, helping organize the Catholic side of this.
阿诺德·皮尔斯纳，你在哪里？ And Arnold Pilsner, where are you?
请你上来介绍帕特里克·马德里德。 I'd like you to come up and introduce Patrick Madrid.
在你为怀特博士和帕特里克做了那么精彩的介绍之后，谢谢你没有介绍我。 After that wonderful introduction that you gave to Dr. White and Patrick, thank you for not introducing me.
谢谢你，克里斯，感谢你的介绍，也感谢你每年为使这场辩论取得成功所做的所有工作。 Thank you, Chris, for your introduction and for all the work that you do every year to make this debate a great success.
我也向怀特博士和他的团队致以问候。 I also extend my greetings to Dr. White and to his staff.
为大家介绍帕特里克·马德里德先生是我的荣幸和快乐。 It is a distinct honor and pleasure to introduce to you Mr. Patrick Madrid.
帕特里克·马德里德是《使者杂志》的出版人，这是一份获奖的公教护教与福传期刊。 Patrick Madrid is the publisher of Envoy Magazine, an award-winning Catholic journal of apologetics and evangelization.
帕特里克是几本畅销书的作者，包括《真理使我惊讶》、《真理使我惊讶 I I》、《教宗谬论》、《神的朋友就是我的朋友》、《圣经何处有此说？》、 Patrick is the best-selling author of several books, including Surprised by Truth, Surprised by Truth II, Pope Fiction, Any Friend of God's Is a Friend of Mine, Where Is That in the Bible?,
《搜索与拯救》、《为何传统如此说？》 Search and Rescue, Why Is That in Tradition?
以及即将出版的《高处的朋友》。 and the forthcoming book Friends in High Places.
他也是《不单靠圣经》的共同作者，并且是即将出版 的依纳爵出版社《公教护教百科全书》的撰稿人。 He is also a co-author of Not by Scripture Alone and is a contributor to the forthcoming Ignatius Press Encyclopedia of Catholic Apologetics.
在过去15年中他活跃于护教领域，从1988年到1995年担任公 教答案组织的副主席，并于1990年1月共同创办了该使徒团体的旗 舰杂志《磐石》。帕特里克不是皈依者，他从小就在公教信仰中长大。 Active in apologetics for the past 15 years, he was the vice president of Catholic Answers from 1988 to 1995 and co-founder of that apostolate's flagship magazine, This Rock, in January of 1990. Patrick is not a convert; he was raised in the Catholic faith.
他获得了凤凰城大学的工商管理理学学士学位，并在达拉斯大学进行神学研究生课程学习。 He earned a Bachelor of Science degree in Business Management from the University of Phoenix and has done graduate studies in theology at the University of Dallas.
除了作为作家的工作外，帕特里克还主持永恒圣言电视网的两个电视节目 和广播系列节目《教宗谬论》和《圣经与传统的真理》，他还是使者传播 电台节目《此时此地》的执行制片人，该节目在全国的公教电台播出。 In addition to his work as an author, Patrick is also the host of two EWTN television shows and radio series, Pope Fiction and The Truth About Scripture and Tradition, and he's the executive producer of the Envoy Communications radio program Right Here, Right Now, which airs on Catholic stations across the country.
他在美国各个堂区和大学，以及在整个欧洲、亚洲和拉丁 美洲用英语和西班牙语举办了数百场护教和福传会议。 He has conducted hundreds of apologetics and evangelization conferences in English and Spanish at parishes and universities across the United States, throughout Europe and Asia, and in Latin America.
他曾多次与新教牧师、摩门教领袖和其他非公教发言人进行正式的公开辩论。 He is a veteran of several formal public debates with Protestant ministers, Mormon leaders, and other non-Catholic spokesmen.
帕特里克和他的妻子南希蒙受祝福，育有11个健康快乐的孩子。 Patrick and his wife Nancy have been blessed with 11 healthy and happy children.
作为夫妻，他们最重要的目标是有朝一日能听到主耶稣对他 们和他们的孩子说：「好，你这又良善又忠心的仆人。」 Their most important goal as a couple is to one day hear the Lord Jesus say to them and their children, Well done, good and faithful servants.
「你在不多的事上有忠心，我要把许多事派你管理。可以进来享受你主人的快 乐」（马太福音25:21）。请和我一起热烈欢迎帕特里克·马德里德。 You have been faithful over a little; now enter into the joy of your master (Matthew 25:21). Please join me in giving Patrick Madrid a warm welcome.
今晚我还想说明一点，双方通常都很有激情并且坚持各自的 立场，但我们请您不要喊叫，不要发出噪音、呻吟和抱怨。 One thing I want to make clear tonight also is that both sides are usually very spirited and committed to their respective sides of this debate, but we ask you please not to call out, not to make noises, groans, and moans.
我是说，在我说话之后你们可以那样做，但在这些人辩论时请不要这 样，因为这会影响辩论的整体氛围，也会分散对辩论内容的注意力。 I mean, you can do that after I say something, but not during these guys while they're debating because that just detracts from the whole spirit of the debate and distracts from the content of the debate.
所以我们请您不要在会场内发生任何情绪爆发，我们不需要这些。 So we just ask of you to please keep your outbursts out of the room; we don't need them.
我是说，在辩论者讲完话后，你们当然可以鼓掌等等，但 在辩论进行中有人发言时，请观众不要以任何方式喧哗。 I mean, you can obviously applaud after a debater has finished speaking and so forth, but while there is actually speaking going on during the debate, please no outbursts from the audience in any way.
我还想提醒大家注意——事实上，我马上要请阿诺德上来，这样 他可以为大家介绍帕特里克的一些书；我想他忘记这样做了。 I also want to draw your attention—in fact, I'm going to call Arnold up here real quick in a second so he can point you to some of Patrick's books; I think he forgot to do that.
但我想请大家注意詹姆斯·怀特的两本书，这两 本书在大厅有售，辩论双方可能都会觉得有趣。 But I want to call your attention to two books by James White that are available for sale out in the lobby that both sides of this debate may find interesting.
第一本是《危险的电波：驳斥哈罗德·坎平，捍卫基督的教会》。 The first one is Dangerous Airwaves: Harold Camping Refuted and Christ's Church Defended.
这是詹姆斯·怀特写的一本书，明显是在驳斥哈罗德 ·坎平最近的异端言论，他说教会已经不复存在。 It's a book that James White wrote, obviously refuting the recent heresies of Harold Camping, who was saying that the Church no longer exists.
还有一本是他与杰弗里·尼尔合著的《同性争议》，这本书 驳斥了自由派神学家试图从圣经角度为同性恋辩护的观点。 And another book that he wrote with Jeffrey Neal called The Same-Sex Controversy, which is a book refuting the liberal theologians' attempts to defend homosexuality biblically.
请注意，这本书不要和我写的关于我与色盲悲惨斗争的书《同袜争议》混淆。 And please, this book is not to be confused with the book that I wrote about my tragic struggle with colorblindness called The Same Socks Controversy.
这是完全不同的书——完全不同。 It's a totally different book—completely different.
还有一套三卷本著作，是我和魏茨博士的一位亲密朋友——实际上是我和魏茨博士的两 位亲密朋友，比尔·韦伯斯特和大卫·金——写的关于唯独圣经教义的历史性的著作。 There's also a three-volume set by a dear friend of both Dr. Weitz and mine—actually, two dear friends of mine and Dr. Weitz, Bill Webster and David King—who have a three-volume set on the historicity of the doctrine of sola scriptura.
这可能是从教父等角度来看这个主题最详尽的著作集，而且这里 的售价比其他任何地方都便宜，包括他的网站：每卷15美元。 It is probably the most exhaustive collection of writings on this subject in perspective of the early Church Fathers and so forth, and it's worth selling them cheaper than you're going to get them anywhere else, including his website: $15 a volume.
这里每卷15美元——非常便宜！ $15 a volume here—very dirt cheap!
我是说，你们可以证明这一点，对吧？ I mean, you can attest to that, can't you?
非常便宜！ Very dirt cheap!
我站在你们面前是个说谎者，是个食言的人，但我道歉；今晚我就是控制不住自己。 I stand before you folks a liar and a man who is going back on his word, but I apologize; I just can't help myself tonight.
我希望在座的各位原谅我这样做，特别是我们的 正统长老会主持人，但我实在控制不住自己。 I hope that all here forgive me for doing this, especially our Orthodox Presbyterian moderator, but I just can't control myself.
对不起，但让我们准备开战吧！ Excuse me, but let's get ready to rumble!
抱歉，我必须把这句话说出来。 Sorry, I had to get that out of my system.
我道歉，我道歉。 I apologize, I apologize.
现在我要为大家介绍我们尊敬的主持人，我相信他现在已经不想认识我了。 Now I'm going to introduce to you our esteemed moderator, who I'm sure does not want to know me anymore.
当我在为这场辩论寻找主持人时，为了公平起见，我想了一会儿， 说我必须找一个对公教徒的厌恶程度和对浸信会信徒差不多的人。 When I was trying to find a moderator for this debate, in order to be fair, I had to think a minute and say I have to find somebody who despises Catholics just about as much as he despises Baptists.
那么还有谁比长老会的主持人更合适呢？ So who better than a Presbyterian moderator?
比尔·希什科是我见过的最聪明的人之一，我完全真诚和诚实地这样说。 Bill Shishko is one of the most brilliant men that I have ever met, and I say that in total sincerity and honesty.
他是一位亲密的朋友。 He is a dear friend.
他是长岛富兰克林广场正统长老会的牧师，我想向大家介绍 ：比尔·希什科牧师，我们今晚的主持人，女士们先生们。 He is the pastor of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church in Franklin Square, Long Island, and I'd like to introduce him to you: Pastor Bill Shishko, our moderator, ladies and gentlemen.
现在，阿诺德，我想问问阿诺德。 Now, Arnold, I just want to check with Arnold.
你有什么帕特里克的书想要重点介绍的吗，还是你想让帕特里克自己来介绍？ Do you have any books that you wanted to highlight about Patrick, or do you want Patrick to do it?
帕特里克，你想重点介绍你的任何书籍吗？ Patrick, do you want to just highlight any of your books?
好的，没问题。 Okay, that's fine.
好的，现在我们要——在比尔上台接管今晚的活动之前， 我相信你们都会为此感激——我们要低头作一个默祷。 All right, now we're just going to—before Bill comes up and takes over the evening, which I'm sure you'll all be thankful for—we're going to bow for a word of silent prayer.
阿们。 Amen.
非常感谢，女士们先生们。 Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen.
这里再次有请比尔·希什科牧师。 And here again is Pastor Bill Shishko.
克里斯选择了一位长老会的人，因为我们以做事 体面有序而闻名，现在我们就要开始这样做。 Chris picked a Presbyterian because we're known for doing everything decently and in order, and we're going to start that right now.
今晚辩论的主题是：向圣徒祈祷和敬奉圣徒，以及敬奉 代表他们的圣像，这些都与圣经和基督教传统相符合。 The thesis for the debate this evening is: Prayer to and veneration of the saints, as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them, is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition.
帕特里克·马德里德先生将为此论题辩护，詹姆斯·怀特先生将否定此论题。 Mr. Patrick Madrid will defend the thesis, and Mr. James White will deny the thesis.
今晚演讲的顺序是：开场演讲将由马德里德先生领先，然后是怀特先生。 Here is the order for the speeches for the evening: the opening speech will be led by Mr. Madrid and then followed by Mr. White.
每个开场演讲将持续27分钟。 Each opening speech will be 27 minutes long.
接着是每人的第二次演讲；马德里德先生和怀特先生将按此顺序各讲14分钟。 This will be followed by a second speech by each person; Mr. Madrid and Mr. White will speak each for 14 minutes in that order.
之后将有15分钟的休息时间。 Following that, there will be a 15-minute break.
现在，我在过去的辩论中的经验是，10或15分钟常常变成30分钟。 Now, my experience has been in past debates that 10 or 15 minutes has become 30 minutes.
我是今晚的主持人；休息时间将严格是15分钟。 I am moderating this evening; it will be a 15-minute break.
在第13分钟时，你们将收到两分钟的提醒，如果 你们想听下一部分的辩论，就必须回到座位上。 At the 13-minute mark, you'll be given a two-minute warning, and you will be in your seats if you want to hear the next part of the debate.
我们这样做是为了让你们之后有时间提问。 We're doing that so that you will have time for questions following.
休息之后，将有12分钟的交叉询问时间，首先由马德里德先生主导，然后是怀特先生。 After the break, there will be a cross-examination period of 12 minutes, led first by Mr. Madrid and then by Mr. White.
接着是两个八分钟的反驳，同样是马德里德先生先说，怀特先生随后。 That will be followed by two rebuttals, each of eight minutes, again with Mr. Madrid leading and Mr. White following.
结束陈词每人10分钟，发言顺序相同。 Closing remarks will be for 10 minutes each, with the same succession of speakers.
这样，包括15分钟的休息时间，总共大约需要两小时40分 钟或两小时45分钟，这样应该还剩下约30分钟用于问答。 That, including the 15-minute debate, should be approximately two hours and 40 minutes or two hours and 45 minutes, which should leave about 30 minutes for questions.
这将是提问时间，而不是让在场人士讲道的时间。 It will be a question time, not a time for preaching from the gathered people.
所以我们必须在11:45前结束。我要重申阿 恩岑先生说的话：我们将严格遵守时间限制。 So we must be out of here by 11:45. I want to reiterate what Mr. Arnzen said: we are strictly going to observe the time limits.
我请求你们不要在发言者演讲中途鼓掌。 I ask that you do not applaud in the middle of the speeches of the people.
如果你为你支持的人鼓掌，你只是在占用他的时间，这对他一点帮助都没有。 If you're applauding the man that you favor, you're only taking up his time; you're not going to help him at all.
你们可以在结束时鼓掌，当然在整场辩论结束时，两位先生都值得我们的掌声。 You may applaud at the end, and certainly at the end of an entire debate, both men will be deserving of our applause.
我坚持要求保持庄重。 I am insisting on decorum.
这是一场辩论，不是棒球比赛。 This is a debate; it is not a baseball game.
值得庆幸的是，我们两位先生都不是工会成员，所以我想他们不会罢工。 Thankfully, neither of our men is involved in a union, so I don't think they'll be going on strike.
但你们不能嘘声，不能发出嘶声，不能起哄或大声叹息。 But you are not to boo, you are not to hiss, you are not to make catcalls or loud sighs.
再说一遍，我会要求保持秩序。 Again, I will call for order.
还有一件事我要请求：如果你们有手机，要么关机，要么将铃声设置为仅振动。 And one other thing that I ask: if you have a cell phone, either turn it off or turn your ring mechanism to vibrate only.
我们今晚不想要任何手机的打扰。 We don't want any interruptions by cell phones at all this evening.
如果你必须打电话，不要在座位上打，请到后面去。 If you have to make a call, do not make it from your seat; go out to the back.
但请关闭你们的手机或只使用振动功能。 But please turn off your cell phones or only use the vibrate function.
我们今晚从马德里德先生开始。 We'll begin this evening with Mr. Madrid.
感谢大家。 Thank you all.
好的，向大家问好，感谢这场辩论的组织者，感谢吉姆·怀特，感谢 阿诺德·皮尔斯纳和他的团队，以及所有帮助举办这场活动的人。 Well, greetings to all of you, and my thanks to the organizers of this debate, to Jim White, to Arnold Pilsner and his group, and to all the people who have helped put this on.
我没有意识到这是连续第七场这样的辩论，但我可以告诉你们，在 听说了关于这场辩论的种种事情，以及纽约人有多么激烈，这些活 动有时会变得多么紧张之后，我感觉自己好像是这场宴会的主菜。 I didn't realize this was the seventh of these debates in a row, but I can tell you that after all the things that I've heard about this debate and how fierce New Yorkers are and how strenuous these events sometimes get, I feel as though I'm sort of the main course at a banquet here.
但我希望今晚我的味道不错；至少我希望我们呈现给你们的信息是容易接受的。 But I hope I taste good this evening; at least I hope the information that we present to you is palatable.
我也知道大辩论系列以只邀请最优秀的辩论者来到这个场地而享有盛 誉，既然今年那些人都不在，我也很感激他们愿意让我作为替补。 I'm also aware that the Great Debate Series has a well-deserved reputation for bringing in only the finest and the best debaters to this venue, and since none of those people were available this year, I'm also grateful that they were willing to call on me as a backup.
现在，正如我们的主持人几分钟前指出的，今晚的论题是——我再重复一遍——向圣 徒祈祷和敬奉圣徒，以及敬奉代表他们的圣像，这些都与圣经和基督教传统相符合。 Now, as our moderator pointed out a few minutes ago, the thesis topic tonight is—and I'll just repeat it—Prayer to and veneration of the saints, as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them, is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition.
我今晚的工作是陈述公教会的观点，不仅是公教会的观点，还有 东正教的观点，只要东正教能容忍我假定为他们作同样的陈述。 My job tonight is to present the Catholic case, and not just the Catholic case, but the Orthodox case as well, to the extent that the Orthodox will tolerate me presuming to make the same case for them.
但公教会和东正教在这个问题上持相同的观点，所以我会尽 我所能呈现信息，帮助你们看看这是否是一个合理的主张。 But Catholics and Orthodox share the same views on this subject, so I'm going to be doing my best to present the information that will help you see whether or not this is a reasonable proposition.
我相信这是一个合理的主张，圣经中的证据和圣传中的证据实际上告诉我们，敬奉圣 徒、敬奉他们的圣像，以及请求他们的代祷，这些都与圣经和基督教传统相符合。 I believe it is a reasonable proposition that the evidence in Scripture and the evidence in sacred tradition, in fact, tell us that the veneration of the saints, the veneration of their images, and asking for their intercession is compatible with Scripture and with Christian tradition.
为了恰当地完成我的工作，吉姆和我都必须做的一件 事就是要坚持主题，正如我们之前被告知的那样。 And in order to do my job properly, one of the things that both Jim and I have to do is we have to stay on topic, as we were told earlier.
这意味着我们不能偏离到相关的旁枝问题上，比如马利亚永贞的问题。 That means that we're not going to be able to veer into tangential related issues such as Mary's perpetual virginity.
我们没有时间讨论炼狱，或者我们是否应该称马利亚为神的母亲。 We won't have time to talk about purgatory or whether or not we should call Mary the Mother of God.
我们也没有时间讨论她的无原罪始胎，这些都是留给未来论坛的其他辩题。 We won't have time to talk about her immaculate conception, and those are all other debates for future forums.
但今晚，我们必须严格聚焦于基督徒是否应当尊敬圣徒 、祈求他们的代祷，以及敬奉圣徒的圣像这个主题。 But tonight, we have to concentrate on the very strict sense, the very strict theme of whether or not it is proper for Christians to honor the saints, to invoke their intercession, and to venerate icons of the saints.
所以我们会尽最大努力坚持这个主题，认真查看能验证这个假设的证据。 So we're going to do our best to stay on that topic and really take a look at the evidence that serves to verify the hypothesis.
这是我的工作，然后吉姆会呈现他的信息，他认为可以否定或证伪这个假设的证据。 That's my job, and then Jim is going to present his information, his evidence that he sees as denying or falsifying this hypothesis.
你们知道，当我来这里的时候，我们从俄亥俄州的哥伦布市一路开车过来——我和 我的儿子还有他的朋友——当我来到这里时，我突然意识到今天是7月11日。 You know, when I was coming out here, we drove all the way out from Columbus, Ohio—my son and his friend and I came out—and as I was coming out here, it dawned on me that today is July the 11th.
我现在站在大纽约地区的你们面前，我越想越觉得神通过祂的眷顾 把这个日期定在今天来讨论诸圣相通的问题，这是很有诗意的。 Here I am standing in front of you in the greater New York area, and the more I thought about it, the more I think God is being very poetic in having this date fixed through His providence for a debate on the question of the communion of saints.
因为想想在9月11日，就在离这里几英里远的双子塔发生了什么。 Because consider what was happening just a few miles from here at the Twin Towers on September the 11th.
有数千人失去了生命。 There were many thousands of people who were losing their lives.
我们都在电视上恐惧地看着这一切。 You and I all watched it on television in horror.
你们中的一些人当时可能就在城里，可能近距离目睹了这场灾难。 Some of you perhaps were even in the city at the time; you may have seen the devastation up close.
当我思考、祈祷并准备这场辩论时，我想到的一件事是，我确信，当我们打开 电视，得知劫机和建筑物倒塌的消息时，作为正常的人，我们都做了什么。 One of the things that has come to my mind as I've thought and prayed and prepared for this debate is what we all did, I'm certain, as normal human beings when we turned on the television and found out about the hijackings and the buildings falling down.
我们祈祷。 We prayed.
我不会请大家举手示意，但我想如果我们诚实地扪心自问，我们确实为他人祈祷了。 I won't ask for a show of hands, but I think if we were honest and looked into our hearts, we did pray for other people.
我们为飞机上的遇难者祈祷，希望也许有人能够生还。 We prayed for the victims of the planes, hoping that maybe somebody would survive.
我们为那些被困在建筑物中的人祈祷。 We prayed for those that were trapped in the buildings.
我们为那些勇敢的消防员和进入建筑物保护和救援他人的救援人员祈祷。 We prayed for the brave firefighters and the rescue workers who went into the buildings to protect them and to save them.
但关键是，我们祈祷了。 But the point is, we prayed.
我们为住在那个地区的人祈祷；我们不知道他们是否受伤，是受伤了，死了，还是还活着。 We prayed for the people who lived in the area; we didn't know if they were hurt or not, hurt, killed, or alive.
确实，这是一个非常悲伤，非常悲惨，但我认为也是一个充满希望 的背景，因为它很好地、生动地向我们展示了诸圣相通的含义。 And really, that is a very sad, very tragic, but also I think a very hopeful backdrop for us this evening because it typifies very well, very vividly for us, what the communion of saints means.
现在，我意识到在神学上有许多事情把我们分开——公教徒和新教 徒——但我想可以肯定地说，我们都在努力爱和服侍耶稣基督。 Now, I realize that there are many things that divide us theologically here—Catholics and Protestants—but one thing I think it's safe to say is that we are all striving to love and serve Jesus Christ.
认识祂、爱祂、服侍祂的部分愿望包括做祂告诉我们要做的事，那就是爱我们的邻舍。 Part of that desire to know, love, and serve Him involves doing what He told us to do, and that is to love our neighbor.
在公教会中，爱邻舍的诫命包括给赤身的人穿衣服，给口渴的人水喝等等。但 更重要的是，它还包括为邻舍祈祷，寻求他的灵性福祉，在基督里建立他。 In the Catholic Church, that commandment to love your neighbor includes such things as clothing the naked, giving drink to the thirsty, etc. But also, and perhaps even more importantly, it involves praying for your neighbor, seeking after his spiritual well-being, and building him up in Christ.
这甚至比给饥饿的人食物，给赤身的人衣服等更重要， That is even more important than feeding the hungry, clothing the naked, etc.,
尽管那些事情也很重要。 as important as those things are.
所以我想要呈现一些圣经信息。 So what I'd like to do is to present some biblical information.
我们没有时间涵盖大量信息，但让我从一两个定义开始，帮助我们理清状况。 We won't have time to cover a mountain of information, but let me begin with a definition or two just to help us get situated.
首先，特伦特大公会议在1563年的第25次会议中宣布，与基督一同 掌权的圣徒为世人献上他们的祈祷，恭敬地祈求他们是好的也是有益的。 First of all, the Council of Trent, in its 25th session in 1563, declared that the saints who reign together with Christ offer up their own prayers for men, and it is good and useful suppliantly to invoke them.
那是特伦特大公会议。 That was the Council of Trent.
在梵蒂冈第二次大公会议中，我们看到更广泛的阐述。 At Vatican II, we see something a little bit more expansive.
梵二会议在《礼仪宪章》中说：通过神的旨意那隐 藏而仁慈的奥秘，人与人之间存在着超性的团结。 Vatican II says in the document Sacra Sanctum Concilium: By the hidden and kindly mystery of God's will, a supernatural solidarity reigns among men.
这导致一个人的罪会伤害其他人，正如一个人的圣德会帮助他人。 A consequence of this is that the sin of one person harms other people, just as one person's holiness helps others.
通过这种方式，基督徒信徒互相帮助达到他们超性的归宿。 In this way, Christian believers help each other reach their supernatural destiny.
天上的人与基督的亲密结合给整个教会带来额外的 稳固和圣德，并为教会的建设作出多方面的贡献。 The great intimacy of the union of those in heaven with Christ gives extra steadiness and holiness to the whole Church and makes a manifold contribution to the extension of her building.
现在他们在自己的家乡受到欢迎，与主同在，通过祂， 与祂同在，在祂内，他们不断地向圣父为我们代祷。 Now that they are welcomed in their own country and are at home with the Lord, through Him, with Him, and in Him, they intercede unremittingly with the Father on our behalf.
这就是关于诸圣相通的本质的一个非常简明的陈述。 That would be a very concise statement with regard to what the communion of saints is all about.
现在让我列举一些具体的证据，我认为这些证据至少 能帮助我们看到公教会在这个问题上的说法和教导。 So now let me go through some particular evidence that I think will help us see at least what the Catholic Church is saying and teaching on this subject.
关于今晚诸圣相通的论题，我想向你们提出七点供考虑。 I'd like to present to you seven points for your consideration with regard to this thesis tonight about the communion of saints.
七点中的第一点是教会是基督的身体，我相信我们都能同意这一点。 First of the seven points is that the Church is Christ's body, and I believe we could all agree on that.
教会是基督的身体。 The Church is the body of Christ.
我们在罗马书12章，哥林多前书12章，以弗所书2、3、4章中读到这点。罗马书 12章4-5节告诉我们：「正如我们一个身子上有好些肢体，肢体也不都是一样的用 处。我们这许多人，在基督里成为一身」，现在听这最后一句：「互相联络作肢体。」 We read about that in Romans 12, 1 Corinthians 12, Ephesians 2, 3, and 4. We're told such things in Romans 12, verses 4 through 5: For as in one body we have many parts, and all the parts do not have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and now listen to this last phrase: and individually parts of one another.
所以在基督身体的所有肢体之间存在这种紧密的合一。 So there's this cohesive unity between all the members of the body of Christ.
我们在基督里，但正如圣保罗在这里所说，我们也互相作肢体。 We are in Christ, but we are also, as St. Paul says here, individually parts of one another.
我们在彼此的福祉中都有份。 We have a share in each other's welfare.
我们在约翰福音17章22-23节中也读到这点。耶稣本质上 说了同样的话，祂对父说：「使他们合而为一，像我们合而为一 。我在他们里面，你在我里面，使他们完完全全地合而为一。」 We read about this also in John 17, verses 22 through 23. Jesus says essentially the same thing when He says, May they be one as we are one, speaking to the Father: I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to perfection as one.
在约翰福音15章1-5节中，主通过葡萄树和枝子的比喻进一步阐明了这一点。 In John 15, verses 1 through 5, the Lord amplifies this through His use of the metaphor of the vine and the branches.
你我是枝子，是基督身体的一部分；祂是葡萄树。 You and I are branches, part of the body of Christ; He is the vine.
有趣的是，虽然你我作为枝子与葡萄树本身——基督 ——有相通和团契，我们也彼此之间有相通和团契。 Interestingly, although you and I as branches have communion and fellowship with the vine itself, Christ, we also have communion and fellowship with one another.
所以请记住这一点：教会是基督的身体。 So keep this in mind: the Church is Christ's body.
第二点：基督只有一个身体。 Point number two: Christ has only one body.
祂不是在地上有一个身体，在天上又有另一个身体。 He doesn't have a body on earth and another body in heaven.
这是基督的一个身体，是一个永恒的、持久的、合一的身体。 This is one body of Christ, and it's an eternal, perpetual, united body.
基督如此认同我们，例如，当在使徒行传第9章中 迫害基督徒的扫罗被从马上击落时，耶稣质问他。 Christ so identifies with us that, for example, when Saul, who was persecuting the Christians in Acts chapter 9, gets knocked off his horse, Jesus confronts him.
祂没有说：「扫罗，扫罗，你为什么逼迫我的跟随者？」 He doesn't say, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting my followers?
祂说：「扫罗，扫罗，你为什么逼迫我？」 He says, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?
这意味着基督和祂的身体之间存在着这种紧密而奥秘的联系。 This means that there is this intense and mysterious connection between Christ and His body.
所以如果我们记住第二点——基督只有一个身体，而不是在天上一 个身体在地上一个身体——我们就会明白，当圣保罗在以弗所书2 章13-16节说，基督为我们成就了和平，使我们合而为一。 So if we keep that second point in mind—that Christ has only one body, not one body in heaven and one body on earth—we realize that when St. Paul says in Ephesians 2, verses 13 through 16, that Christ has made peace for us, He has made us one.
祂拆毁了中间隔断的墙，而且以自己的身体废掉律 法上的规条，要将两下藉着自己造成一个新人。 He has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two.
这就是合一。 This is unity.
在加拉太书3章27-28节，圣保罗说：「你们受洗归入基督的，都是披戴基督了。并不 分犹太人、希腊人，自主的、为奴的，或男或女，因为你们在基督耶稣里都成为一了。」 In Galatians 3, verses 27-28, St. Paul says, For as many of you as were baptized into Christ and have put on Christ, there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
阿们！ Amen!
但真正的问题是，作为基督身体的肢体，在地上 的圣徒和天上的圣徒之间是否存在某种联系？ But the real question is, as members of the body of Christ, is there some type of connection between those of us who are saints here on earth and the saints who are in heaven?
这就是今晚摆在我们面前的真正问题。 That's the real question that is set before us tonight.
现在我们要看第三点，这将帮助我们解答这个问题，因为这是那些重大分歧问题之一。 What we have to look at now is point number three, which will help us address that question because that's one of those big dividing issues.
第三点是死亡并不能分开基督身体的肢体。 Point number three is that death does not separate the members of the body of Christ.
正如圣保罗所说，我们这些受洗归入基督的都是一个身体。 Just as St. Paul said, those of us who are baptized into Christ are one body.
正如他在罗马书8章35-39节也说，没有什么能使我们与基督的爱隔绝。 As he also says in Romans 8, verses 35-39, nothing can separate us from the love of Christ.
他列举了许多不同的事物——赤身露体、饥荒、刀剑、 危险等。他说这些都不能叫我们与基督和祂的爱隔绝。 He lists many different things—not nakedness, famine, the sword, peril, etc. He says none of these things can separate or divide us from Christ and from His love.
事实上，他说我们在这一切的事上已经得胜有余了。 He says, in fact, we conquer overwhelmingly through these things.
但他在这里指的不仅是基督的爱；他也指的是基督本身。 But it's not just the love of Christ that he is referring to here; he's also referring to Christ Himself.
所以我们这些在基督身体里的人，既不能与基督 本身分离，也不能与身体的任何其他肢体分离。 So those of us who are in the body of Christ can't be separated from either Christ Himself or from any other member of the body.
否则，基督就没有战胜死亡。 Otherwise, Christ would not have conquered death.
如果你像我一样相信，耶稣基督一次而永远地战胜了死亡，毁灭了死 亡和它的毒钩，夺去了它对祂跟随者的一切权势，那么这就是真正的 问题：如果基督战胜了死亡，那么基督的身体就不会被死亡分开。 If you believe, as I do, that Jesus Christ conquered death once and for all, destroyed death and its sting, and took away any power that it has over His followers, then that's the real question: if Christ conquered death, then the body of Christ is not separated by death.
我们必须考虑到，既然死亡没有能力切断基督徒合一的纽带，基 督徒之间的关系——当我们今晚进一步讨论时，我们将看到圣经 在谈到基督徒彼此之间的不同责任时，如何加强这种关系。 We have to consider that since death has no power to sever the bond of Christian unity, the relationship between Christians—and as we go a little bit further tonight, we're going to see how Scripture intensifies this relationship for us when it speaks about the different duties that Christians have toward one another.
在哥林多前书12章，圣保罗说：「若都是一个肢体，身子在哪里呢？」 In 1 Corinthians 12, St. Paul says, If they were all one part, where would the body be?
但如今肢体是多的，身子却是一个。 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
眼不能对手说：「我用不着你。」头也不能对脚说：「我用不着你。」 The eye cannot say to the hand, I do not need you, nor again can the head say to the feet, I do not need you.
这一点我们必须记住：那些说我们应该忽视或否认天上的圣徒——基督这一身体的肢体— —能够并确实为我们祈祷，以及我们可以请求他们代祷的人，实际上是违背了哥林多前书 12章。保罗很清楚地说，身体的任何肢体都不能对其他肢体说：「我用不着你。」 This is very important for us to remember: those who say that we should ignore or even deny that the saints in heaven, the members of that one body of Christ, can and do pray for us, and that we can invoke their intercession, are actually violating 1 Corinthians 12. Paul says very clearly that no member of the body can say to any other member, I do not need you.
今晚，当吉姆为反对方提出证据时，我希望你们记住哥林多前书12 章，并问问自己这论点是否符合圣保罗关于我们需要彼此的劝诫。 And tonight, as the evidence is being presented by Jim for the opposing side, I want you to keep 1 Corinthians 12 in mind and ask yourself if that argument is consistent with St. Paul's admonition that we need one another.
第四点：基督徒在爱德中合一。 Point number four: Christians are united in charity.
可以说，这是基督徒生活中理论付诸实践的关键点。 This is, you might say, the point where the rubber meets the road in the Christian life.
我们被召去彼此相爱，互相服事。 We are called to love and serve one another.
罗马书15章30-32节说：「弟兄们，我借着我们主耶稣基 督，又借着圣灵的爱，劝你们与我一同竭力，为我祈求神。」 Romans 15, verses 30-32 says, I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in the struggle by your prayers to God on my behalf.
哥林多后书1章10节说：「我们指望祂将来还要救我们，你们以祈祷帮助我们。」 2 Corinthians 1:10 states, In Him we have put our hope that He will also rescue us again, as you help us with prayer.
歌罗西书1章4节和9-10节说：「我们为你们 祷告的时候，常常感谢神我们主耶稣基督的父。」 Colossians 1:4 and 9-10 says, We always give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you.
我们应该问另一个问题：如果圣保罗说他总是为我们祈祷，渴望见到我们等 等，根据我们从前面几点所知道的，想象一旦圣保罗去世，这些想法和为我 们代祷的意愿就会消失，突然他就不再做这些事情了，这有任何意义吗？ Another question we should ask is: if St. Paul says that he always prays for us, he yearns to see us, and so on, does it make any sense at all, given what we know from the earlier points, to imagine that once St. Paul died, those thoughts and that intention to pray for and supplicate on our behalf would go out the window and that suddenly now he wouldn't be doing those things?
我们可以引用许多其他经文：加拉太书6章2节，哥林多前书10章24节 ，帖撒罗尼迦前书4章9-10节，帖撒罗尼迦后书5章11节，以及帖撒 罗尼迦前书5章14-15节。这些都是神学界所说的常设诫命的好例子。 We could quote many other verses: Galatians 6:2, 1 Corinthians 10:24, 1 Thessalonians 4:9-10, 2 Thessalonians 5:11, and 1 Thessalonians 5:14-15. All of these are good examples of what is called in theological circles a standing command.
这是圣经给我们的诫命，要我们彼此代祷，互相 帮助，寻求基督身体中其他肢体的灵性福祉。 This is a command that Scripture gives us to pray for, to help one another, and to seek the spiritual welfare of our fellow members of the body of Christ.
圣经中没有任何地方废除了给基督身体肢体的这个诫命。 Nowhere in Scripture is this command to the members of the body of Christ rescinded.
下一点，第五点是我们能够效法圣徒。 The next point, point number five, is that we are able to imitate the saints.
作为公教徒和我们的东正教弟兄，我们拥有圣像的部分原因是通过他们的图 像来提醒我们他们的美德，提醒我们殉道者为基督所受的苦难，提醒我们纯 洁和真实等。正如圣保罗在腓立比书3章17节和4章8-9节所说，他告 诉我们要效法他，他说：「凡是公义的，凡是纯洁的，凡是可爱的，凡是有 美名的，若有什么德行，若有什么称赞，这些事你们都要思念。」 Part of what we as Catholics and our Orthodox brothers do when we have icons is to have pictures of them to remind us of their virtues, to remind us of the sufferings that the martyrs underwent on behalf of Christ, to remind us of purity and truthfulness, etc. As St. Paul says in Philippians 3:17 and Philippians 4:8-9, he tells us to imitate him, and he says, Whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things.
现在扪心自问，在你认识的所有人中，你认为谁是最仁慈的，最纯洁的，最值得尊敬的等？ Now ask yourself, among all the people that you know, who do you think is the most gracious, the most pure, the most honorable, etc.?
如果不是在天堂荣耀中的圣徒，还能是谁呢？ If not the saints who are in heaven in glory?
希伯来书12章告诉我们，他们是被成全的义人的灵魂。 Hebrews 12 tells us that they are the spirits of the just made perfect in righteousness.
所以如果圣经给我们任何默想的对象——当然不是排除而是补 充对耶稣基督的默想——那就是耶稣基督的朋友们，即圣徒。 So if anything is presented to us by Scripture for us to meditate upon—not to the exclusion, of course, but in addition to meditating upon Jesus Christ—that would be the friends of Jesus Christ, the saints.
如果我们再进一步，我们就会看到一些早期教父的陈述。 If we go a little bit further, we get to some of the statements that we have from the early Church Fathers.
但在我们谈到这些之前，我们要谈谈最后两点。 But before we get to those, we're just going to talk about one final two final points.
第六点是我们能够祈求圣徒的代祷。 Point number six is that we are able to invoke the intercession of the saints.
这是公教徒和新教徒之间的另一个分歧领域。 This is another area that divides Catholics and Protestants.
我在这里是作为朋友；我不是你们的敌人。 I'm here to say I'm here as a friend; I'm not your enemy.
但我在这里是要表达公教会的教导，这教导很简单，就是我们在世上的人可以彼此代祷。 But I'm here to represent the Catholic teaching, which is simply that those of us on earth can pray for one another.
正如圣保罗在提摩太前书2章1-4节所说：「我劝你第一要为万人恳 求、祷告、代求、祝谢，为君王和一切在位的也该如此，使我们可以敬 虔端正，平安无事地度日。这是好的，在神我们救主面前可蒙悦纳。」 As St. Paul said in 1 Timothy 2, verses 1 through 4: First of all, brothers, I ask that prayers, supplications, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life, for this is good and pleasing to God our Savior.
圣保罗说，当我们彼此祈祷，互相恳求，为彼此代求，并献上感恩时，神是喜悦的。 St. Paul says that when we pray for each other, supplicate for one another, intercede for one another, and offer thanksgivings, God is pleased by that.
我希望吉姆今晚能回答我们一个问题：为什么圣徒在地上可以为我们 祈祷、恳求和代求——这是神所喜悦的——但当他们到了天堂，面对 面站在神面前，在义中得以完全时，这突然就不再是神所喜悦的了？ One question that I hope Jim will be able to answer for us tonight is: how is it that suddenly, when the saints who can pray, supplicate, and intercede for us here on earth—and that pleases God—how is it that when they get to heaven and they stand before God face to face, perfected in righteousness, that suddenly now that is no longer pleasing to God?
或者说，为什么我们请求他们为我们祈祷、恳求和代求，这突然就不再是神所喜悦的了？ Or that it is no longer pleasing to God for us to ask them to pray, supplicate, and intercede for us?
注意我们读到这些话就在提摩太前书2章5节之前，在2章5节中我们看到圣保罗 提醒我们：「因为只有一位中保，在神和人中间，就是降世为人的基督耶稣。」 And notice it's just right before 1 Timothy 2:5 that we read those words, and in 1 Timothy 2:5 we see St. Paul reminding us, For there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus.
所以这些在天上的圣徒并不是在做只有耶稣才应该做的事。 So these saints in heaven are not somehow doing something that Jesus is only supposed to do.
他们并不是试图从我们唯一的中保基督那里夺走什么。 They're not trying to take away or rob something from Christ, who is our one mediator.
只有祂能在我们被困在罪中的地方和神在完全圣洁中的地方之间建立联合。 He is the only one that could effect a union between where we are stranded in sin and where God is in all holiness.
祂是唯一的中保。 He is the one mediator.
但现在，因为我们通过基督有了这种途径，我们能够彼此祈祷、恳求和代求。 But now, because we have that access through Christ, we are able to pray for, supplicate, and intercede for one another.
另一个有趣的点：在马太福音25章21节，耶稣在 那段经文中告诉我们，圣徒在天上被派管理许多事。 Another interesting point: in Matthew 25:21, Jesus in that passage tells us that the saints are put in charge of many things in heaven.
他们被派管理许多事。 They are put in charge of many things.
这意味着除了赞美主这个主要活动之外，一定还有其他活动。 That means there must be some activity involved in addition to praising the Lord, which is, of course, the primary activity.
但我要告诉你们，他们被派管理许多事，而这许多事中的一件就是继续为我们祈祷和代求。 But I'm going to tell you that they are put in charge of many things, and one of those many things that they're in charge of is to continue that effort to pray for and supplicate for us.
旧约中有许多段落，但由于时间关系，我无法详细讲解那 些显示亚伯拉罕或约伯等旧约人物代求和转求的经文。 There are many passages in the Old Testament, but because of time, I don't have the ability to go into those passages where we see supplication and we see intercession on the part of Old Testament figures such as Abraham or Job.
也许在问答环节，我们可以讨论这些。 Perhaps in the Q&A period, we can cover those.
但我想让你们听听教父们关于圣徒代祷的价值和重要性的论述。 But I'd like you to listen to the Church Fathers and what they say on the subject of the value and the importance of the intercession of the saints.
例如，听听圣耶柔米在大约406年的写作。他说：「你在 你的书中说，当我们活着的时候，我们能够彼此代祷。」 For example, listen to St. Jerome, writing around the year 406. He says, You say in your book that while we live, we are able to pray for each other.
但之后，当我们死了，任何人为另一个人的祈祷都不能被听到，这在殉道者身上尤其明显。 But afterwards, when we have died, the prayer of no person for another can be heard, and this is especially clear since the martyrs.
他在他的著作《驳维吉兰提》中写道这些。 He writes that in his work Against Vigilantius.
希波的奥古斯丁在他的第159篇讲道中说：「正如信徒所知，有一个教 会规矩，就是在神的祭坛前诵读殉道者的名字时，不是为他们祈祷。」 Augustine of Hippo says in his Sermon 159, There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in the place at the altar of God where the prayer is not offered for them.
他在第172篇讲道中也说：「当在他们自己的地方纪念他 们时，献祭本身，也是为纪念他们并为他们献上的祭。」 He also says in Sermon 172, When they are commemorated in their own place, and sacrifice itself, and the sacrifice is offered also in the memory of them and on their behalf.
所以我们在这里再次看到，圣奥古斯丁不仅告诉我们天上的 圣徒能为我们祈祷，而且我们也为忠信离世者的灵魂祈祷。 So we see there again that not only does St. Augustine tell us that the saints in heaven can pray for us, but also that we pray for the souls of the faithfully departed.
公教徒称之为炼狱。 Catholics would refer to that as purgatory.
那里的人们——可惜的是，尽管炼狱对我们双方来 说都很吸引人，但它不是我们今晚辩论的主题。 People who are there—unfortunately, purgatory is not our debate theme tonight, as tantalizing as that might be for both of us.
但也许如果圣约翰·达马森提到同样的事，我们可以反复讨论这些不同的要点。 But perhaps if St. John Damascene mentions the same thing, we could go repeatedly through these different points.
但我想先完成第七点，然后我们简短地谈谈圣像。 But I want to just finish up with point seven, and then we'll turn briefly to icons.
最后一点是我们可以赞美和敬奉圣徒。 The last point is that we can praise and honor the saints.
当我们在公教会中有圣像时，是为了赞美和敬奉圣徒。 When we have icons in the Catholic Church, that is for the benefit of praising and honoring the saints.
它们在那里提醒我们这些圣人圣女，也作为纪念他们的荣誉。 They're there to remind us of these holy men and women, and they're also there to serve as memorials to their honor.
在罗马书8章18节，圣保罗说——注意他不是说这 是将要向我们显明的将来的荣耀，而是在我们里面。 In Romans 8:18, St. Paul says—notice he doesn't say that this is future glory that will be revealed to us, but in us.
换句话说，神要将祂自己的荣耀注入我们里面。 In other words, God is going to infuse us with His own glory.
当我们有圣徒和圣母马利亚的圣像时，这是提醒我们这一点的方式。 And when we have icons and sacred images of the saints, the Blessed Virgin Mary, that's a way to remind ourselves of that.
在罗马书13章1-7节，我们读到那段经典的经文，告诉我们当给当得的人以尊敬。 In Romans chapter 13, verses 1 through 7, we read that classic passage where we're told to give honor to whom it is due.
圣保罗说我们要——让我翻到这里——我们被告知要向当纳税的人纳税。 St. Paul says that we are to—let me just flip here to it—that we are told to pay taxes to the people that we owe taxes to.
我们要尊敬地上的掌权者。 We're to give respect to the authorities here on earth.
在第6节，他说：「你们纳粮也为这个缘故，因他们是神的差役，常常特管这事。」 In verse 6, he says, This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
「凡人所当得的，就给他。当得粮的，给他纳粮；当得税的 ，给他上税；当惧怕的，惧怕他；当恭敬的，恭敬他。」 Pay all their dues: pay taxes to whom taxes are due, tolls to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due.
当得尊敬的，就给他尊敬。 And honor to whom honor is due.
我问你们，我的朋友们，谁比耶稣基督的朋友更应当得到尊敬呢？ I ask you, my friends, to whom is more honor due than the friends of Jesus Christ?
那些爱祂的人，那些顺服祂的人，那些在天上与祂同在荣耀中的人。 Those who love Him, those who obey Him, those who are with Him in heaven and glory.
如果说谁应当得到尊敬，不是街上的治安法官，也 不是你在C-SPAN上看到的那些立法的人。 If anyone deserves honor, it's not the justice of the peace down the road; it's not the people you see on C-SPAN passing laws.
他们确实应当得到某种程度的尊敬，但圣保罗在这里告诉我们，我们理当给予圣徒的尊敬。 They do receive a certain amount of honor, but the honor that we are justly to give to the saints is told to us here by St. Paul.
所以在第七点中，我们看到我们确实可以敬奉圣徒。 So in point number seven, we see that we can indeed honor the saints.
现在我们在新约中看到例子，比如在哥林多前书11章 1-2节，圣保罗赞扬和尊敬他所写信的基督徒团体。 Now we see examples in the New Testament, for example, in 1 Corinthians 11, verses 1 through 2, where St. Paul praises and gives honor to the Christian community that he was writing to.
他说：「你们该效法我，像我效法基督一样。」 He says, Be imitators of me as I am of Christ.
「我称赞你们，因你们凡事记念我，又坚守我所传给你们的。」 I praise you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions just as I have handed them on to you.
所以有数不清的例子告诉我们如何以适当的方式给予尊敬 和赞美——这并不会减损我们单单给予神的尊敬和荣耀。 So there are just an innumerable wealth of examples of how we can give honor and praise in a proper sense—not detracting from the honor and glory that we give to God alone.
但我想用一些你们可能认识的人的几句话来结束这一部分。 But I'd like to close this section with just a few quotes from some people that you might recognize.
例如，马丁·路德在1534年写道：她，指的是马利亚，是天地之上的贵妇。 For example, Martin Luther, in 1534, wrote these words: She, referring to Mary, is the lady above heaven and earth.
她一定有一颗如此谦卑的心，以至于她不以像使女一样为施洗约翰洗襁褓或预备洗澡为耻。 She must have a heart so humble that she might have no shame in washing the swaddling clothes or preparing a bath for St. John the Baptist like a servant girl.
多么谦卑啊！ What humility!
若安排一辆由4000匹马拉的金马车肯定更为壮观。 It would surely have been more to have arranged for a golden coach pulled by 4,000 horses.
现在，在座的路德宗信徒听我引用马丁·路德的话可能会感到不舒服，但要记住在路德写作 的时代，谈论圣徒有一种特别华丽的方式，而且他仍然保持着那种很公教的适当敬奉意识。 Now, you Lutherans in the audience may feel your skin crawl as I'm quoting Martin Luther at that, but just remember that in the times that Luther wrote, there was a certain extravagant way of speaking about the saints, and he still had that very Catholic sense of offering proper honor.
约翰·加尔文说——他继续说——但他那一段的重点，这是从他关于圣 徒问题的著作中摘出的，我们看到他并不是说我们不能给予圣徒任何尊 敬，而是说必须是适当的尊敬，这正是我们作为公教徒所相信的。 John Calvin said—he goes on—but the point of his section there, and this is taken out of his writings on the question of the saints, we see that he is not saying that we can't give any honor to the saints, but it has to be proper honor, and that is exactly what we as Catholics believe.
马丁·路德在1531年圣诞节的讲道中再次提到马利亚说：「 在基督之后，她是基督教中最崇高的女性和最高贵的瑰宝。」 Martin Luther, in his sermon at Christmas in 1531, said, referring to Mary again, She is the highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ.
她是高贵、智慧和圣洁的化身。 She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified.
我们永远无法给予她足够的尊敬。 We can never honor her enough.
现在我们问自己，我们如何敬奉马利亚和圣徒？ Now we ask ourselves, how do we honor Mary and the saints?
现在我必须转向圣像的问题，以及早期教会对我们的教导。 I have to switch now to the question of icons and what the early Church says for us.
现在，我们看到在200年代早期发现了一个祷文，这是已知最古老的版本。 Now, we see in the early 200s, there’s a prayer that was discovered, and this is the oldest known version of it.
这个祷文叫做「Sub Tuum Praes idium」，意思是「我们投奔你的庇护」。 The prayer is called the Sub Tuum Praesidium, which means We fly to your patronage.
这是在埃及发现的，是一份来自200年代中期的基督教文献。 This was found in Egypt; it’s a Christian document dating from the mid-200s.
以下是当时基督徒关于马利亚，以及延伸到圣徒的写作：「我们投奔你的庇护，至圣天主 之母；在我们的需要中，不要轻视我们的祈求，但救我们脱离一切危险，荣福童贞女。」 Here’s what the Christians were writing about Mary and, by extension, the saints at that time: We fly to your patronage, O Holy Mother of God; despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin.
这种赞美对许多新教徒来说很陌生，但早期基督徒却很习惯敬奉马利亚和圣徒。 That type of praise is something that many Protestants are unaccustomed to hearing, but the early Christians were quite accustomed to honoring and venerating Mary and the saints.
现在请听这个。 Now listen to this.
在我们剩下的时间里，我们有许多早期教会的引述。 In the remaining moments that we have, we have many quotes from the early Church.
其中一些我要留到下一部分，但我想给你们读几段圣奥古斯丁的话。 Some of them I’m going to have to save for the next section, but I want to read to you a couple of them from St. Augustine.
在他的第313篇讲道中，他说：「毕竟，对如 此伟大的殉道者的赞美不就是对神的赞美吗？」 In his Sermon 313, he says, What, after all, are the praises of such a great martyr but the praises of God?
「或者说，西普里安全心归向神的功劳归于谁呢？不就是归于 那位被称为『大能的神，求你使我们回转』的那一位吗？」 Or to whose credit is it that Cyprian was converted to God with his whole heart but the one to whom it was said, 'God of powers, convert us?'
所以当我们赞美神的作为时，无论是指圣徒还是神 在战士心中的争战，我们并没有偏离对神的赞美。 So we don't move away from praising God when we praise the works of God, referring to the saints or the battles of God in the soldier's heart.
他说：「我的灵魂必因主得称赞；谦和的人听见就要喜乐。」 He says, In the Lord shall my soul be praised; let the gentle hear and be glad.
他是谦和的；他愿他的灵魂在主里得称赞。 He was gentle; he wishes his soul to be praised in the Lord.
愿他的灵魂在主里得称赞。 Let his soul be praised in the Lord.
现在，时间又不够了，所以我必须停在这里。 Now, the time is again against me, so I’ll have to stop now.
但在今晚剩下的部分，我们将更多地讨论早期教父们在这个主题上的观点。 But in the remaining sections this evening, we’re going to talk more about what the early Fathers had to say on that subject.
感谢你们的耐心。 I thank you for your patience.
晚上好，欢迎大家！ Good evening and welcome!
很高兴今晚看到你们所有人在这里——今晚来了这么多人真是太好了。 It is very good to see all of you here this evening—a wonderful crowd here tonight.
听到在我们开始之前，甚至在辩论者到场开始辩 论之前就已经展开的各种讨论，真是很有趣。 It was interesting listening to all the debating taking place before we got started, even before the debaters were here to start doing the debating.
然而，今晚辩论的基本论题其实很简单：神的圣洁、无误、被保守、活泼 的道是否足以定义什么是——这是重要的部分——什么不是适当的敬拜， 使我们能够避免以任何方式、形式或样式在敬拜的事上不讨神的喜悦？ This evening's debate, however, is really rather simple in its fundamental thesis: Is the holy, inerrant, preserved, living Word of God sufficient to define what is—and this is the important part—what is not proper worship, so that we can avoid in any way, shape, or form displeasing God in the matter of worship?
圣经本身是否能告诉我们如何敬拜神，什么是神所喜悦的？ Is the Bible able in and of itself to tell us how God would be worshipped and what is pleasing before God?
还是说这基本上是人必须自己决定的事？ Or is that pretty much an issue that man has to decide for himself?
确定在神面前什么是正确和适当的敬拜，这任务是否留给了人？ Is man left up to the task of determining what is right and proper worship before God?
现在我要请你们今晚关注这个论题的两个要素。 Now I'm going to ask you this evening to focus on those two elements of the thesis.
首先，这些做法——向圣徒和天使祈祷，呼求圣徒和天使—— 这些是否与圣经的教导相符，是否与所谓的基督教传统相符？ First, are these practices—prayers to, invocation of saints and angels—are these things consistent with what the Scripture teaches, and are they consistent with what is called Christian tradition?
当然，这就打开了一个麻烦的话题，那就是你究竟如何定义这到底是什么。 Which, of course, opens up the whole hornet's nest of exactly how you define what in the world that is in the first place.
但最重要的是，如果你们带了圣经，我想请你们看一些经文。 But most importantly, I would like to ask you, if you have your Bibles, to look at some passages.
今晚我们双方都会向你们提出一些经文。 We're both going to be throwing out some passages this evening to you.
显然，这就是为什么我们要进行录像和录音，这样你们可以回去重新查看这些内容。 Obviously, that's why we're videotaping and audiotaping, so that you can go back over these things.
但我希望你们会花时间查看圣经是怎么说的。 But I hope you will take the time to look at what the Scriptures say.
请跟我翻到出埃及记第20章。这当然是神赐给我们十诫的地方。 Turn with me to Exodus chapter 20. This, of course, is the place where God gives us the Ten Words, the Ten Commandments.
这实际上不是关于如何列举这些诫命的问题；神的每一句话都 对我们有约束力，今晚我们也不是要讨论如何划分这些诫命。 And it's not an issue really of the numeration of these things; every word of God is binding upon us, and how you divide it up really isn't the issue this evening.
今晚我特别想讨论的，是我认为关于向圣徒、天使和圣像祈祷和敬奉等问题的核心所在。 What I would like to address this evening, especially, is what I believe the heart of the matter is in regards to prayers to and veneration of saints, angels, and images, and so on and so forth.
那就是罗马公教会说我们没有把只该给神的给了受造物这个事实。 That is the fact that the Roman Catholic Church says we are not giving to creatures what is due only to God.
当你看到罗马公教徒在马利亚像前跪拜，当你看到点燃蜡烛，当你听到献上祈 祷，我们被告知这并不违反任何圣经的诫命，因为我们只把当给神的给神—— 他们也会说包括圣体圣事和基督的圣像等等——但我们只把当给神的给神。 When you see the Roman Catholic bowing down before the statue of Mary, when you see the lighting of candles, when you hear the offering of prayers, we are told that this does not violate any commands of Scripture because we only give to God—and they would also say to the Eucharist and to images of Christ, and so on and so forth—but we only give to God what is due to God.
这里使用的术语是latria——崇拜，对神的真正敬拜。 The term that is used there is latria—adoration, true worship of God.
我们给予圣徒的是不同的；它被称为dulia，那是服事。 What we give to saints is different; it is called dulia, and that is service.
这是一个不同的术语。 That is a different term.
当一个人在圣像前跪拜或向马利亚祈祷时，马利亚实际上接受的是hy perdulia，即最高形式的dulia，只有她接受这种敬奉。 And when the person is bowing before the statue or praying to Mary, Mary in fact receives hyperdulia, the highest form of dulia, and only she receives that.
但这种latria和dulia之间的区别正是我们今晚讨论的核心。 But this distinction between latria and dulia is at the very heart of what we're talking about tonight.
因为如果这种区别是非圣经的，如果这种区别并不存在，那么其他一切都变得无关紧要。 Because if that distinction is unbiblical, if that distinction does not exist, then everything else becomes irrelevant.
所有其他论证都变得无关紧要，因为如果latria和dulia在圣经中 实际上是同一件事，那么为献上祈祷所提供的借口——祈祷是敬拜的行为。 All the other argumentation becomes irrelevant because if latria and dulia are in fact biblically the same thing, then the excuse that is offered for offering, for example, prayer—prayer is an act of worship.
你如何在不敬拜的情况下向圣徒祈祷？ How do you pray to a saint without worshiping?
嗯，从圣经的角度来说，不是所有的祈祷都是敬拜。 Well, biblically, not all prayer is worship.
事实上，我们被告知，我们只是给予那位特定的圣徒dul ia，或者如果是对马利亚，就是hyperdulia。 We're told, in fact, we're just giving dulia to that particular saint, or if it's to Mary, hyperdulia.
这不是真正的敬拜；我们只把那个给神，不给任何其他对象。 It's not true worship; we don't give that to anything but God.
如果这种区别不符合圣经，那么实际上，其他一切都基本上无关紧要。 If that distinction is not biblical, then in reality, everything else is pretty much irrelevant.
因为即使你想证明这与整个基督教传统一致，什么更重要：神 在祂默示的道中所说的，还是在所谓的传统中发现的东西？ Because even if you wanted to establish that this is consistent with the entirety of Christian tradition, what is more important: what God has said in His inspired Word, or what is found in what is allegedly defined as a tradition?
我们会发现，历史资料在这些问题上根本不是统一的。 We'll discover that the historical sources are not united on these issues at all.
那么，我们如何确定这种区别——只给神的latria，给圣徒的dulia， 以及作为天主之母的马利亚的hyperdulia——是否真的符合圣经呢？ So how do we determine whether this distinction between latria, given to God alone, and dulia, given to saints, and hyperdulia, given to Mary as the Mother of God, is in fact biblical?
好，我们可以看看圣经是怎么说的。 Well, we can look at what the Scriptures say.
当然，latria和dulia并不是圣经最初写作时就存在的词。 Now, of course, latria and dulia aren't biblical words that existed when the Bible was first written.
圣经的旧约是用希伯来文写的，还有一点亚兰文，新约是用希腊文写的。 The Bible was written in Hebrew in the Old Testament, a little bit of Aramaic, and Greek in the New Testament.
但latria和dulia是拉丁语词，来自两个希腊词：latreu o，意为敬拜，这是动词形式，和dulo，意为服事，这也是动词形式。 But latria and dulia are Latin terms that come from two Greek words: latreuo, to worship, which is the verbal form, and dulo, to serve, which is the verbal form of that as well.
我们非常蒙福，不仅拥有旧约的希伯来文原文，而且还有新 约作者们自己使用的旧约译本，称为希腊文七十士译本。 We are very blessed to have in our possession not only the Hebrew originals in the sense of the Hebrew language of the Old Testament, but we also have the translation of the Old Testament that the New Testament writers themselves used, called the Greek Septuagint.
当我们看这个译本和旧约如何使用这些词时，我们发现试图区分 说latria是敬拜——你只给神；dulia不是敬拜，是 尊敬，是敬奉——你只给圣徒，这种做法是不符合圣经的。 When we look at how that translation and how the Old Testament uses words, we discover that the attempt to make a distinction and say latria is worship—you give that only to God; dulia is not worship, it's reverence, it's veneration—you give that only to the saints.
这种区分是非圣经的，而且与这些词在旧约和新约中的常规用法相矛盾。 That distinction is unbiblical and contradicted by the regular usage of those words in both the Old and New Testaments.
因此，我向你们提出，在敬拜的问题上，当你去看神在祂的道中如何定义祂 自己的敬拜时，这道告诉我们不可以基于那种区分进行任何形式的活动。 Therefore, I submit to you that on the issue of worship, when you go to where God has defined His own worship in His own Word, that Word tells us that you are not to engage in any type of activity based upon that distinction.
事实上，向神以外的任何受造物献上祈祷，以跪拜和敬拜的形 式向神以外的任何人献上敬奉，都是严重的偶像崇拜之罪。 In fact, to offer prayers to any creature other than God, to offer veneration in the form of bowing down and worship to anyone other than God, is the grievous sin of idolatry.
这是圣经的教导。 That is the biblical teaching.
那么，圣经在哪里教导这个？ Well, where does it teach this?
让我们看出埃及记20章5节：「不可跪拜那些像，也不可事奉 它，因为我耶和华你的神是忌邪的神，恨我的，我必追讨他的罪 ，自父及子，直到三四代。」这些话并不是很温和或政治正确。 Well, let's look at Exodus chapter 20, verse 5. You shall not worship them or serve them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me. Those are not really kind or politically correct words.
神在这里谈到祂的愤怒；祂谈到追讨罪孽自父及子，直到三四代，为的是什么？ God talks about His wrath here; He talks about visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations for what?
为的是违反对祂正确的敬拜。 For violating His proper worship.
但关键是要看这两个词：你不可跪拜它们，也不可事奉它们。 But the key is to look at those two terms: you shall not worship them or serve them.
这些词是什么？ What are those words?
在希伯来语中，shatach的意思是跪拜，这是第一个被翻译为敬拜的词。 Well, in the Hebrew language, shatach means to bow down, and it's the first word translated there as worship.
然后，今晚很重要的是，avad在这段经文中的意思是事奉它们。 Then, very importantly this evening, avad means to serve them in this passage.
现在这个avad词是关键。 Now that term avad is key.
为什么？ Why?
因为在旧约的希腊文译本中，这个译本的引文进入了新约，这一个ava d词被翻译成了两个进入拉丁文的希腊词：latria和dulia。 Because in the Greek translation of the Old Testament, which comes into the New Testament in its citation, that one term avad is translated by both the Greek terms that come into the Latin: latria and dulia.
希腊文七十士译本在翻译这个希伯来词时并没有区分这两个词，而且我 们被禁止avad——姑且用这个希伯来语——神以外的任何对象。 The Greek Septuagint does not differentiate between those two terms in translating this one Hebrew word, and we are forbidden from avad-ing—to sort of mess up the Hebrew language there—anyone other than God.
这包括latria和dulia两者。 That includes both latria and dulia.
现在，在这个特定的段落中，avad这个词被 翻译成latreuo，也就是latria。 Now, in this particular passage, the term avad is translated by latreuo, which becomes latria.
就在十诫中的这段经文说，你不可献上latria。 This very passage, right in the Ten Commandments, says you will not give latria.
罗马公教徒会说，对，看，我们没有这样做。但是看看出埃及记23: 33。如果你没有带圣经，我来读这段经文：「他们不可住在你的地上 ，恐怕他们使你得罪我。你若事奉他们的神，这必成为你的网罗。」 Roman Catholics would say, Yep, see, we don't. And yet look at, for example, Exodus 23:33. If you don't have a Bible with you, I'm going to read the passage: They shall not live in your land because they will make you sin against Me, for if you serve their gods, it will surely be a snare to you.
这也是avad。 That's avad as well.
但你猜希腊文译本是什么？ But guess what the Greek translation is?
Dulia。 Dulia.
是同一回事。 Same thing.
在申命记28:64中，我们读到：「耶和华必使你们分散在万民中，从地这边 到地那边，你必在那里事奉你和你列祖素不认识的别神，就是木头和石头。」 In Deuteronomy 28:64, we read: Moreover, the Lord will scatter you among all peoples from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, and there you shall serve other gods, wood and stone, which you or your fathers have not known.
这难道不是敬拜吗？ Is that not worship?
这难道不是在描述敬拜吗？ Is this not describing worship?
这不就是偶像崇拜的本质吗？ What idolatry is all about?
然而在早期教会使用的圣经译本中，这就是dulia。 And yet in the translation of the Bible that was used by the early Church, that's dulia.
罗马公教会向圣徒和天使献上敬奉的整个做法所基于的那 个区分，恰恰在早期教会使用的那个译本中被否定了。 The very distinction that the entire practice of the Roman Catholic Church in offering veneration to saints and angels is based upon is contradicted in that very translation the early Church used.
士师记10:10说：「以色列人哀求耶和华说：『我们 得罪了你，因为离弃了我们的神，去事奉诸巴力。』」 Judges 10:10 says, Then the sons of Israel cried out to the Lord, saying, 'We have sinned against You, for indeed we have forsaken our God and served the Baals.'
这就是dulia。 That's dulia.
有谁会说他们说的不是偶像崇拜吗？ Would anyone argue that that's not idolatry they're talking about?
实际上，如果我们接受罗马公教会在latria和dulia之 间的区分，这就成了一个借口：主啊，我们没有给巴力latri a；我们只给了巴力dulia，所以我们并没有真的犯罪。 In reality, if we were to accept the Roman Catholic distinction between latria and dulia, this would be an excuse: Lord, we didn't give latria to the Baals; we only gave dulia to the Baals, so we didn't really sin.
不，这种区分在圣经中并不存在。 No, that distinction doesn't exist biblically.
因为你们看，各位，在希伯来人的思维中，你不可能敬拜你不服事的对象。 Because you see, folks, in the Hebrew mindset, you cannot worship Him that you do not serve.
只有在西方思维中，我们才会想出这样的想法，就是你可 以在敬拜和崇敬的意义上尊敬某人，而不用服事他们。 It's only in Western thinking that we can come up with the idea that, well, you can honor someone in the sense of worshiping them and adoring them without serving them.
不，你不能——从圣经的角度来说是不能的。 No, you can't—not biblically.
你看，真正的圣经敬拜包含这两个概念在一起。 You see, true biblical worship involves both concepts together.
这就是为什么希腊文七十士译本不用一个特定的词 来翻译它，因为这个希伯来词的含义比那更丰富。 That's why the Greek Septuagint doesn't translate it by one particular word, because the Hebrew word is richer than that.
神在十诫中说的「你不可如此行」，包含了敬拜和服事的整个概念。 What God said in the Ten Commandments, You shall not do this, encompasses the whole concept of adoring and serving.
撒母耳记上7:3说：「撒母耳对以色列全家说：『你们若一心归顺耶和华，就要 把外邦的神和亚斯他录从你们中间除掉，专心归向耶和华，单单地事奉祂。』」 1 Samuel 7:3 says, Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, 'If you return to the Lord with all your heart, remove the foreign gods and the Ashtaroth from among you, and direct your hearts to the Lord and serve Him alone.'
Dulia——单单地事奉祂。 Dulia—serve Him alone.
那么，当罗马公教徒向马利亚祈祷，给她hyperdulia，极度的敬奉， 并说「我将我的灵魂交在你手里，求你救我脱离罪恶」时，这怎么能符合呢？ Well, how does that fit when the Roman Catholic prays those prayers to Mary and gives her hyper-dulia, hyper-veneration, and says, Into Your hands I commit my spirit; deliver me from my sins?
你们知道我指的是哪个祷告。 You know which prayer I'm referring to.
这怎么能与这里所说的相符呢？ How is that consistent with what is found here?
各位，当我们进入历史部分时，我们会发现在耶稣基督之后半个千年——距使徒时代500 年——有作者说敬拜圣徒是可以的，他们使用proskuneo这个词，意思是跪拜。 Folks, when we get into the historical section, we're going to discover that there were writers half a millennium after the time of Jesus Christ—500 years removed from the apostles—who said it's okay to worship saints, and they used the term proskuneo, which means to bow down before.
他们的论点成为了第二次尼西亚大公会议的基础，这被视为第 七次大公会议，教条式地规定可以有雕像和圣像并敬奉它们。 And their arguments became the foundation of the Second Nicene Council, considered the seventh ecumenical council, that dogmatically defined that it's okay to have statues and images and to venerate them.
那个会议明确地把它的决定建立在它所谓的未成文传统之上。 That council based its decision very clearly on what it called unwritten traditions.
各位，一个在基督之后500年的人说的话，这人可能既不懂希伯来 文也不懂希腊文，没有处理圣经文本，事实上还违反了圣经文本。 Well, folks, what someone said 500 years after Christ, who probably couldn't read either Hebrew or Greek, did not deal with the biblical text and, in fact, violates biblical text.
如果这成为教条性法令的基础，那么我们就只能在神在祂 的道中所说的和人在他们的法令中所说的之间做选择了。 If that becomes the foundation of a dogmatic decree, then we are left with the choice of choosing between what God has said in His Word and what men say in their decrees.
Latria这个词是用来翻译avad的。 That term latria is used of avad.
让我再给你们几段经文，比如出埃及记4:23和1 2:31——听听这些经文是如何组合在一起的。 Just to give you a few more passages, like in Exodus 4:23 and Exodus 12:31—just listen to some of these and how they're put together.
出埃及记23:24说：「你不可跪拜他们的神，也不可事奉它。」 Exodus 23:24 says, You shall not worship their gods nor serve them.
看到它们是如何放在一起的吗？ See how they're together?
它们被放在一起是要向我们说明，你不能做出罗马 公教会教义定义中这些问题核心所作的那种区分。 They are put together to explain to us that you cannot make the very distinction that is at the heart of the Roman Catholic dogmatic definition of these issues.
申命记4:19说：「又恐怕你向天举目观看日月星 辰，就是天上万象，自己便被勾引敬拜事奉它。」 Deuteronomy 4:19 states, And beware not to lift up your eyes to heaven and see the sun and the moon and the stars, all the hosts of heaven, and be drawn away and worship them and serve them.
有人会说只要你不做第一件事，做第二件事就可以吗？ Is anyone going to suggest that as long as you don't do the first, it's okay to do the second?
当然不会！ Of course not!
这不是指两个独立概念的两件独立的事；它们是一起表达同一种态度的。 These are not two separate things that refer to two separate concepts; they go together to express one attitude.
现在，根本没有办法说这些经文中的任何一段支 持或教导latria-dulia的区分。 Now, there is simply no way to say that any of these passages hold to or teach the latria-dulia distinction.
当然，从我的角度来说，我要相信神的道告诉我的， 如果神的道没有教导这个，那么我就不会相信它。 Of course, from my perspective, I want to believe what God's Word tells me, and if God's Word does not teach it, then I'm not going to believe it.
而它确实没有提出这种区分。 And it does not present this distinction.
但有人可能会说，好吧，这只是你唯独圣经的立场在说话。 But some might say, Well, that's just your sola scriptura part speaking.
但圣经在哪里否定它呢？ But where does the Bible contradict it?
好吧，我想我们也已经看到了，因为通过把这两个词放在一 起并交替使用，这些经文消除了任何这种不合时宜的区分。 Well, I think we've seen that as well, because by putting these two terms together and then using them interchangeably, these passages obliterate any such anachronistic distinction.
新约同样没有显示出罗马所创造的latria-dulia区分的任何迹象。 The New Testament likewise shows no hint of the latria-dulia distinction that is created by Rome.
让我看看新约中的几段经文。 Let me look at a few passages in the New Testament.
罗马书14:18说：「这样服事基督的，就为神所喜悦，又为人所称许。」 Romans 14:18 states, For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
有谁会说服事基督不包括敬拜吗？ Would anyone suggest that service to Christ does not involve worship?
好像这是一种较低层次的事情，你也可以给马利 亚或给圣徒——这就是dulia的动词形式。 It's somehow a lesser thing that you can also give to Mary or give to saints—that's the term dulia in the verbal form.
听这个，这特别重要因为加尔文被提到了。 Listen to this; this is especially important because John Calvin was brought up.
加尔文在《基督教要义》中强调了latria和dulia之间缺 乏区分的这个问题，这是他使用的其中一段经文：加拉太书4:8。 「但从前你们不认识神的时候，是给那些本来不是神的作奴仆。」 John Calvin hammered in the Institutes upon this very issue of the lack of distinction between latria and dulia, and here’s one of the passages he used: Galatians 4:8. However, at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
「你们作奴仆」这个短语翻译为你们服事它们。 That phrase you were slaves translates to you served them.
你们被奴役于它们。 You were enslaved to them.
现在，有谁会说保罗在这里的意思是加拉太众教会的这些人没有参与偶像崇拜吗？ Now, is anyone going to suggest that what Paul was saying here is that these people in the churches in Galatia were not involved in idolatrous worship?
好像他们至少只是服事偶像而不是敬拜它们，这就somehow好一些？ That it was somehow better that they at least just served idols rather than worship them?
当然不是！ Of course not!
他说的是你们在从事偶像崇拜，而他用的是dulo这个词。 What he’s saying is you were engaged in idolatry, and he uses dulo.
歌罗西书3:24说：「因你们知道从主那里必 得着基业为赏赐。你们所事奉的乃是主基督。」 Colossians 3:24 states, Knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance; it is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
现在，这比latria差吗？ Now, is that less than latria?
不是的。 It is not.
最后，帖撒罗尼迦前书1:9说：「因为他们自己已经报明我们是怎样进 到你们那里，你们是怎样离弃偶像归向神，要服事那又真又活的神。」 Finally, 1 Thessalonians 1:9 says, For they themselves report about us what kind of reception we had with you and how you turned to God from idols to serve a living and true God.
你们离弃偶像归向神是为了做什么？ You turned to God from idols to do what?
是为了给那又真又活的神献上dulia。 To give dulia to a living and true God.
他不是在说你们从偶像崇拜转向真正和适当的敬拜吗？ Is he not saying you turned from idolatry to true and proper worship?
当然是！ Of course!
所以我要说的第一点是，在其核心，向圣徒祈祷、敬奉圣徒、尊敬圣徒、建造圣徒雕 像、圣徒圣像、在它们面前跪拜、点燃蜡烛，说，好吧，我没有违反圣经的任何命令 因为我只是献上dulia而不是latria，这种区分经不起圣经的检验。 And so the first point that I would like to make is that at its very heart, the concept of praying to saints, venerating saints, honoring saints, building statues of saints, icons of saints, bowing before them, lighting candles to say, Well, I'm not violating anything in the command of Scripture because I'm only giving dulia, not latria, that distinction does not stand up to biblical examination.
在马可福音第7章和马太福音第15章中，主耶稣给祂所有的跟随 者——因此今晚在场的每一个自称是祂跟随者的人都需要听这个— —一个清晰和持久的榜样，就是我们如何在传统的事上判断真假。 In Mark chapter 7 and Matthew chapter 15, the Lord Jesus gave every one of His followers—and hence everyone here this evening who claims to be His follower needs to hear this—a clear and abiding example of how we determine the difference between what is true and false in matters of tradition.
因为在那段经文中，祂在处理那些声称有一个直接来自摩西的传统的人——神 把它给了摩西，它在旧约经文之外以口头的形式传下来，被称为各耳板规则。 Because in that passage, He’s dealing with individuals who claim to have a tradition that comes directly from Moses—God gave it to Moses, and it was passed down orally in an unwritten form outside the writings of the Old Testament, called the Korban rule.
现在，这些法利赛人首先来见耶稣说，你的门徒，他们没有正确地洗手。 Now, these Pharisees had first come to Jesus and said, Your disciples, they don't wash their hands properly.
耶稣说，看看你们自己！ And Jesus says, Well, look at you!
你们有这个各耳板规则，你们通过你们的各耳板规则，为了你们的传统废弃了神的道。 You've got this Korban rule, and you nullify—you make void—the very word of God for the sake of your traditions through your Korban rule.
现在，他们声称这来自摩西；他们声称这有神圣的起源，而耶稣 责备他们，因为他们为了传给他们的传统使神的道失去效力。 Now, they claimed that came from Moses; they claimed it was divine in origin, and Jesus rebuked them because they made the word of God of no effect for the sake of their traditions passed down to them.
耶稣说，你们还做许多这样的事。 Jesus said, Many other things like this you do.
我们需要按照耶稣教导我们的方式，检验传给我们的任何东西，不管是什么。 We need to test whatever is handed on to us, no matter what it is, the way Jesus taught us to.
当我们检验罗马所提供的关于敬拜和敬奉之间区别的核心时，我们发现它是非圣经的。 And when we test the very heart of the distinction that is offered by Rome in regards to what the difference is between worship and veneration, we find that it is unbiblical.
以赛亚书8:20告诉我们：「人当以训诲和法度为标准！」 Isaiah 8:20 tells us, To the law and to the testimony!
他们所说的若不与这话相符，就必不得见晨光。 If they do not speak in harmony with this word, there is no light in them.
所以我毫不羞愧地指引你们看神的道在这些问题上是怎么说的。 And so I unashamedly direct you to what the Word of God says on these issues.
现在，在转向基督教传统概念的问题之前——也许这样处理最好，因为 我们来回讨论时会停留在同一个话题上；这对听众来说可能更容易一些 ——在转向那个问题之前，让我花点时间来讨论关于提摩太前书2:5 的一个常见谬误，这个问题确实出现了，但我无论如何都要讨论它。 Now, before moving to the issue of the concept of Christian tradition—and maybe it will work out best this way because it will sort of stay on the same topic as we're going back and forth; it's probably a little bit easier for the audience—before moving to that issue, allow me a moment to address a common fallacy regarding 1 Timothy 2:5, which did come up, but I was going to address it anyways.
罗马公教会告诉我们，把马利亚作为中保者，正如梵二会议称呼她的那样，是当今世界运 动的一部分，这运动以斯托本维尔大学，斯托本维尔方济会大学为中心，马克·米拉瓦莱 博士和那些推动确立第五个马利亚教义的人——例如，马利亚作为共同救赎者和中保者等 等——这绝不违反提摩太前书2:5的教导，即耶稣基督是神和人之间唯一的中保。 The Roman Catholic Church tells us that having Mary as a mediatrix, as Vatican II referred to her, is part of the movement in the world today centered at the University of Steubenville, Franciscan University of Steubenville, Dr. Mark Miravalle, and those people who are pushing to have the fifth Marian dogma defined—for example, Mary as Co-Redeemer and Mediatrix and so on and so forth—that this in no way violates the teaching of 1 Timothy 2:5, that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men.
很常见的想法是，好吧，耶稣在与我们分享祂的中保工作；祂要求我们为彼此代求和祷告。 Very frequently, the idea is, Well, Jesus is sharing His mediation with us; He asks us to intercede and pray for one another.
这显然不是违反。 That obviously is not a violation.
事实上，在这个上下文中，祂说要为君王和一切在位的献上祷告。 In fact, in this very context, He’s saying prayers will be offered for kings and those in authority.
这应该告诉我们，耶稣基督的中保工作与我们通 过祷告为弟兄姊妹代求的特权有着显著的不同。 What that should tell us is that the work of Jesus Christ in mediation is significantly different than our privilege of, by prayer, interceding for our brothers and sisters.
因为你看，当子作为中保，以大祭司的身份在父面前为祂的子民代 求时，祂是基于祂在加略山十字架上为他们完成的工作而做的。 Because you see, when the Son, as mediator, intercedes as High Priest before the Father on behalf of His people, He does so on the basis of His finished work in their behalf on the cross of Calvary.
没有其他人有这个根基。 No one else has that foundation.
祂的中保工作是独特的，因为祂独特的身份，祂在十 字架上独特的工作，以及祂作为大祭司的独特角色。 His is a unique work of mediation because of His unique character, His unique work upon the cross, and His unique role as High Priest.
这就是为什么保罗说只有一位中保，就像他刚说只有一位神。 That is why Paul says there is one mediator, and he has just said there is one God.
他用的是完全相同的希腊词。 He uses the exact same Greek term.
今天许多罗马公教会护教者会说，实际上，那里使用的hei s这个词不一定意味着独特；它只是意味着第一或主要的。 Many Roman Catholic apologists today will say, actually, the term heis that’s used there doesn’t necessarily mean unique; it just means first or primary.
这实际上可以在奥卡罗尔和米拉瓦莱这样的马利亚学者那里找到，他们使用同样的论证。 That’s actually found by such Mariologists as O'Carroll and Miravalle, who use the same argumentation.
想想这会导致什么：有一位神，这意味着第一位或 主要的神，和一位中保，第一位或主要的中保。 Think of what that results in: there is one God, that means first or primary God, and one mediator, first or primary mediator.
我确信我在盐湖城认识一群人会喜欢如果是这样的话，但这不是它的意思，对吧？ I’m sure I know a bunch of folks up in Salt Lake City that would like it if that were the case, but that’s not what it means, is it?
上下文决定词的含义，就像只有一位独特的神一 样，只有一位独特的中保，那就是耶稣基督。 Context defines the meanings of words, and just as there is only one unique God, there is only one unique mediator, and that is Jesus Christ.
新约没有给我们任何使徒——无论是保罗、彼得 还是其他人——告诉我们要向圣徒祈祷的例子。 The New Testament does not present to us any examples of the apostles—be it Paul, Peter, or anyone else—saying to us, Pray to the saints.
在新约写作的时候，已经有人离世了，不是吗？ There were already individuals who had gone on at the time of the writing of the New Testament, were there not?
司提反已经离世了。 Stephen had gone on.
从没有人向司提反祈祷；从没有人寻求司提反的代求。 No one ever prays to Stephen; no one ever seeks Stephen's intercession.
当然，新约中根本不存在有余功的圣徒直接进入神面前，而其他人进入炼狱这样的区分。 Of course, the very distinction between the idea of saints who have excess merit and who end up directly in the presence of God and others who go into purgatory is unknown in the New Testament.
这是个非圣经的概念；这是我们去年辩论的主题。 It’s an unbiblical concept; that was our debate topic last year.
但在新约中没有任何内容暗示使徒们在教导教会在地上寄居的意义时 ，教导信徒说圣徒相通意味着当圣徒死后，你仍然可以与他们交通。 But there is nothing in the New Testament that would begin to suggest to us that the apostles, as they taught the Church what it means to sojourn here upon the earth, taught believers that the communion of saints meant that when saints die, you can still communicate with them.
他们怎么会知道呢？ How would they know?
如果是圣灵鉴察人心，并将我们心中的意念传达给父 神，那圣灵也参与将我们心中的意念传达给圣徒吗？ If it’s the Holy Spirit who searches the hearts of men and communicates the intents of our heart to God the Father, is the Holy Spirit also involved in communicating the intentions of our heart to saints?
是的，你说，哥林多前书12章说没有人可以说「我用不着你」或「我用不着你」。 Yes, you say, Well, 1 Corinthians 12 says that no one can say, 'I have no need of you' or 'I have no need of you.'
这很对，但注意保罗并没有把这应用到那些已经离开这个世界的人身上。 That’s quite true, but notice Paul does not apply that to those who have left this world.
他从未作出这样的应用说，这意味着我们相信圣徒相通，而这包括那些已经进入天堂的人。 He never makes an application to saying, Now that means that we believe in the communion of saints, and that includes those who have gone into heaven.
他从未这样说过。 He never says that.
他说的是在地方教会运作中有不同恩赐的人。 He’s talking about the people who have different gifts within the functioning of the local body of the Church.
这是哥林多前书第12章的上下文。但这不是很有趣吗？ That's the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 12. But isn't it fascinating?
我们都承认当一个人离世时，有些事情会改变。 We all recognize that something changes when someone passes away.
我们要祷告吗？ Do we pray?
如果我为某人祷告——如果我为阿恩森弟兄祷告，我的确需要为阿恩森 弟兄祷告——如果我为阿恩森弟兄祷告，求神帮助他与罪争战，让我问 你一件事：一旦克里斯在基督面前了，我还要继续为他这样祷告吗？ If I pray for someone—if I pray for Brother Arnson, and boy, do I need to pray for Brother Arnson—if I pray for Brother Arnson that God would help him to strive against sin, let me ask you something: once Chris is in the presence of Christ, do I keep praying that for him?
当然不用！ Of course not!
为什么？ Why?
因为他的状态已经改变了。 Because his status has changed.
死亡并不分裂基督的身体，但它确实使我们与那些在基督里睡了的人分开。 Death does not divide the body of Christ up, but it does divide us from those who are described as being asleep in Christ.
我想知道为什么他们用「在基督里睡了」这个词。 I wonder why they use that term asleep in Christ.
也许是因为他们在安息。 Maybe it's because they're resting.
新约没有给我们任何暗示——即使启示录5:8 说二十四位长老有盛满了圣徒的祷告的香炉。 The New Testament does not give us any hint—even Revelation 5:8 says the 24 elders have the bowls of the prayers of saints.
那里没有任何内容说他们是那些祷告的对象。 There’s nothing there that says they were the objects of those prayers.
新约中没有任何内容让我们相信这一点，反而有很多内容让我们远离这种想法。 There is nothing in the New Testament that leads us to believe this, and there’s much to lead us away from it.
当然，这就是祷告是敬拜行为这个事实。 And that is, of course, the fact that prayer is an act of worship.
当我祷告时，我是在承认神作为造物主对我这个受造物的主权；我在承认祂是我的创造主。 When I pray, I am acknowledging God's sovereignty over me as a creature; I'm acknowledging He’s my Creator.
除了赐我生命气息的那一位，我不能对任何人这样做。 I cannot do that with anyone but the One who gave me life and breath.
非常感谢。 Thank you very much.
现在将有两个14分钟的发言，这正式称为第二轮 建设性发言：马德里先生先说，然后是怀特先生。 There will now be two 14-minute addresses, what would be formally known as the second constructive address: Mr. Madrid first, and then Mr. White.
尽管我们今晚有这么多时间，但要涵盖的内容还是太多了。 There is far too much ground to cover, even though we have all this time tonight.
我想对我们所有人来说，不能更深入讨论是令人沮丧的。 It’s frustrating, I think, for all of us that we can’t get deeper.
如果我们有更多时间，我们会的。 If we had more time, we would.
但让我试着讨论一下我上次发言中未完成的几点 ，也试着谈谈几分钟前吉姆提到的一些事情。 But let me try to cover a few points that were left undone in my last remarks and also try to talk about a few of the things that Jim mentioned a few minutes ago.
首先，我们必须在词义混淆的问题上澄清。 First of all, we have to set the record straight on the question of equivocation.
吉姆在「祷告」这个词上混淆概念，我意识到作为一个 新教徒，他有权按照新教神学的方式使用这些术语。 Jim is equivocating on the term pray, and I realize that as a Protestant, he is entitled to using terms that apply to Protestant theology in that vein.
但公教会一直区分两种祷告，一种是只归于神的敬拜、荣耀和尊崇，另一 种是小写的祷告，如果我们可以这么说的话，指的是交通，而不是敬拜。 But the Catholic Church has always distinguished between prayer, which is the worship and glory and honor that’s due to God alone, and the word prayer with a small p, if we can say it that way, that refers to communication, not worship.
现在，你可以接受或不接受，但这就是公教会一直使用「祷告」这个词的官方方式。 Now, you can accept that or not accept it, but that is the official way in which the Catholic Church has always used the word pray.
当然，我们现在用的是英语这个词，但事实是当一个公教徒向圣 徒祷告时，比如向马利亚或某位圣徒——吉姆早先提到了司提反 ——我们会谈谈奥古斯丁特别谈到向圣司提反祷告时说了什么。 Now, we’re using the word in English, of course, but the fact is that when a Catholic prays to a saint, for example, Mary or one of the saints—Jim mentioned Stephen earlier—we’ll talk a little bit about what St. Augustine had to say about praying to St. Stephen in particular.
当早期教会庆祝圣司提反瞻礼时，奥古斯丁并不是指敬拜或崇敬圣 司提反；而是在祈求与神一同在荣耀中作王的圣司提反的祷告。 St. Augustine was not referring to worshiping or adoring St. Stephen when the early Church celebrated the feast day of St. Stephen; it was invoking the prayers from St. Stephen, who reigns in glory with God.
所以对新教徒来说，好的，当然，我同意，吉姆，当你祷告时，你是在敬拜神。 So for a Protestant, okay, sure, I agree, Jim, that when you pray, you’re worshiping God.
但对公教徒来说，有作为敬拜的祷告，但我们也用不同的方式使用祷告这个词。 But for a Catholic, there is prayer that is worship, but we also use the word pray in a different way.
我们也要记住的第二件事是，今晚不是关于唯独圣经的。 The second thing we have to remember, too, is that this is not about sola scriptura tonight.
这不是一场关于圣经是否足以教导我们这些事情的辩论。 This is not a debate on whether or not the Bible is sufficient to teach us these things.
吉姆和我九年前就进行过那场辩论，如果有人想看我们是如何最终解决圣 经并不教导唯独圣经这个问题的，我建议你们看看桌上的辩论录音带。 Jim and I had that debate nine years ago, and if anybody would like to see just how definitively we settled the issue that the Bible does not teach sola scriptura, I refer you to the debate tapes that are out on the table.
我们今晚不是在讨论圣经是否足够或经文是否足够；我们在讨论早期 基督徒是否理解圣经的意思是我们可以敬奉并请求天上圣徒的代求。 We’re not talking about whether or not the Bible is sufficient tonight or whether Scripture is sufficient; we’re talking about whether or not the early Christians understood Scripture to mean that we can venerate and ask the intercession of the saints in heaven.
这将是今晚的关键，因为詹姆斯可以整晚站在这里告诉我们他对圣经的解释——他会的。 That is going to be the key tonight because James can stand here all night and tell us his interpretation of Scripture—and he will.
当然，我可以告诉你们我的解释，但我认为如果我们考虑 最初的基督徒自己在这个问题上说了什么，会很有益处。 I, of course, can tell you mine, but I think it’s very beneficial if we consider what the original Christians themselves had to say on the subject.
我要注意我的时间，这样我就不会漏掉它们。 And I want to watch my time so I don’t leave them out.
我们必须记住的另一件事是，dulia和lat ria之间的区分问题当然是一个很有趣的点。 Another thing that we have to remember is that the question of a distinction between dulia and latria is certainly a very interesting point.
但我们必须记住的一件事是，dulia和latria这两个词 在圣经中有时用来指人，有时在latria的情况下用来指神。 But one of the things that we have to keep in mind is that the words dulia and latria are used in Scripture sometimes to refer to human beings and other times to refer, in the case of latria, to God.
当然，dulia也用于指神。 And of course, dulia is used with regard to God as well.
我选了几段——实际上，我选了很多段来看这个问题，但我们看到，例如在使徒 行传第7章第7节——这是新约圣经中唯一的段落，至少据我所知——我们看到 latria和dulia的动词形式在同一个短语中，在同一个句子中使用。 I picked out a couple of—actually, I picked out quite a few passages to look at this, but we see, for example, that in Acts chapter 7, verse 7—which is the only passage in Scripture in the New Testament, at least that I’m aware of—we see that the verbal forms of latria and dulia are used here in the same phrase, in the same sentence.
在这里我们看到路加这样说。 Here we see St. Luke saying so.
在这里，我们看到提到埃及人时，dulia指的是他们的埃及统治者——人。 Here we have, referring to the Egyptians, dulia being referenced to their Egyptian overlords—human beings.
当然，他们当时处于非常糟糕的处境，但那里指的是人。 And of course, that was a very bad situation that they were in, but there they were referring to human beings.
然后，当然，神说，你们要事奉我。如吉姆指出的，公教徒 同意latria永远只是专属于神的事奉；从不给予人。 And then, of course, God is saying, You are going to serve Me. Catholics agree, as Jim pointed out, that latria is always and only service that is due to God alone; it is never rendered to human beings.
Dulia也是我们对神的事奉，但有时也可以给予人。 Dulia is also a service that we render to God, but at times it can be rendered to human beings.
听听奥古斯丁在《上帝之城》中说的话。 Listen to what St. Augustine said in The City of God.
他说，因为这是应当归于神性的敬拜，或更准确地说，归于神性本身的敬拜。 He said, For this is the worship which is due to the divinity, or to speak more accurately, to the deity.
为了用一个词表达这种敬拜，因为我想不到任何足够准确的 拉丁语词，我将在必要时使用一个希腊词：latria。 And to express this worship in a single word, as there does not occur to me any Latin term sufficiently exact, I shall avail myself, whenever necessary, of a Greek word: latria.
每当它在圣经中出现时，都被译为事奉这个词。 Whenever it occurs in Scripture, it is rendered the word service.
但那种应当给予人的事奉，就是使徒写到仆人必须 顺服自己主人时所指的，通常用另一个词来表示。 But that service which is due to men, and in reference to which the Apostle writes that the servants must be subject to their own masters, is usually designated by another word.
他指的是希腊语中的dulia。 He’s referring to dulia in Greek.
而在那些写作神谕的人的用法中，单单以敬拜献给神的事奉永远是latria。 Whereas the service which is paid to God alone by worship is always latria in the usage of those who wrote from the divine oracles.
然后他进一步描述这个词是如何经常被误解的，但他在 反驳摩尼教徒法乌斯图的信中真正触及了问题的核心。 Then he goes on a little bit further to describe how this term is often misunderstood, but he really gets to the heart of the matter in his letter against Faustus the Manichean.
但我们建造祭坛不是给任何殉道者，而是给殉道者的神。 He says, But we build altars not to any martyr but to the God of the martyrs.
虽然是为纪念殉道者，但是献给殉道者的神。 Although it is to the memory of the martyrs, it is to the God of the martyrs.
没有人在圣徒墓地的祭坛前说「我们向你献祭，哦彼得，或者哦保罗，或者哦西普里安。」 No one officiating at the altar of the saints' burying place ever says, 'We bring an offering to Thee, O Peter, or O Paul, or O Cyprian.'
献祭是献给赐给他们殉道冠冕的神，同时是为纪念那些得冠冕的人。 The offering is made to God who gave them the crown of martyrdom, while it is in memory of those thus crowned.
这地方的关联增加了情感。 The emotion is increased by the associations of the place.
爱被激发，既指向那些作我们榜样的人，指的是圣徒和殉道 者，带着我们对今生神的圣徒所怀的同样的情感和亲密。 Love is excited both toward those who are our examples, referring to the saints and the martyrs, with the same affection and intimacy that we feel towards holy men of God in this life.
所以他在那里说的是我们尊敬这世上伟大的基督徒；当这些伟大的 基督徒最终在天上，在公义中得以完全时，我们就更加尊敬他们。 So what he’s saying there is we revere great Christians in this world; so much more so do we revere the great Christians when they are finally in heaven, perfected in righteousness.
他说，那恰当地被称为神圣敬拜的，希腊人称之为latria，拉 丁语中没有对应的词，无论在教义上还是实践中，我们只献给神。 He says, What is properly called divine worship, which the Greeks call latria and for which there is no word in Latin, both in doctrine and in practice, we give only to God.
献祭属于这种敬拜。 To this worship belongs the offering of sacrifices.
正如我们所见，拜偶像这个词意味着向偶像献上敬拜，因此，我们 从不向殉道者或圣徒或任何天使献祭，也不要求任何人这样做。 As we see, the word idolatry, which means the giving of worship to idols, accordingly, we never offer or require anyone to offer sacrifice to a martyr or to a holy soul or to any angel.
任何陷入这个错误的人都会通过教义得到纠正或警戒。 Anyone falling into this error is instructed by doctrine either in the way of correction or caution.
因为圣者本身，无论是圣徒还是天使，都拒绝接受他们知道只应归于神的事物。 For holy beings themselves, whether saints or angels, refuse to accept what they know to be due to God alone.
现在，他继续说了很多很多。 Now, he goes on and on and on.
我想让你们听听关于敬奉圣徒这个问题的几点。 I want you to listen to a couple of points here with regard to this issue of honoring the saints.
如果我们看看早期教会的著作，我知道刚才吉姆在贬低 ，比如说5世纪的教父著作，但我们可以追溯到更早。 If we take a look at the writings of the early Church, I know that a minute ago Jim was disparaging the writings of the Church Fathers in, let’s say, the 5th century, but we can go much earlier than that.
但更重要的是，我想让你们听听吉姆自己在这个问题上说过什么。 But more importantly, I want you to listen to what Jim has also said himself on the subject.
在他的网站上，在讨论基督先存性的部分，他说 ，尼西亚和后尼西亚教父的著作确实浩如烟海。 On his website, in the section dealing with the pre-existence of Christ, he says, The body of writing of the Nicene and post-Nicene Fathers is large indeed.
仅沙夫编辑的系列就有28大卷。 The series edited by Schaaf takes up 28 large volumes alone.
因此，概述所有文献远超出本文的范围。 Hence, to overview all the literature would be far beyond the scope of this paper.
因此，将简要考察尼西亚会议之后一个世纪的三位主要解经家——屈梭多 模、亚他拿修和奥古斯丁——来确定他们是如何理解上述重点经文的。 Therefore, the three main exegetes of the century after Nicaea—Chrysostom, Athanasius, and Augustine—will be examined briefly to determine how they understood the focal passages listed above.
现在，这是在他处理圣经的部分，他援引这些人——屈梭多模、亚他拿 修和奥古斯丁——来支持他的观点，即他对圣经的理解与他们一致。 Now, this is in his section dealing with Scripture, and he’s appealing to these men—Chrysostom, Athanasius, and Augustine—to support his contention that his understanding of Scripture is consistent with theirs.
你们看到这里发生了什么吗？ You see what’s going on here?
现在看看这些人中的一些人说了什么。 Now look at what some of these men say.
屈梭多模，生活在约347年至407年，说：「让我们纪念我们 至圣、无玷、至福和荣耀的圣母诞神女永贞马利亚，和所有圣徒， 让我们将自己、彼此和我们的整个生命托付给基督我们的神。」 St. John Chrysostom, who lived around the year 347 to 407, says, Calling to remembrance all our holy, immaculate, and most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and each other and all our life unto Christ our God.
「主啊，我们感谢你，你爱人类，是我们灵魂和身体的施恩 者，因为你今天赐给我们你天上的永恒奥秘来喂养我们。」 We give thanks unto Thee, O Lord, who lovest mankind, benefactor of our souls and bodies, for that Thou hast vouchsafed this day to feed us with Thy heavenly and immortal mysteries.
「求你使我们的道路正直，使我们都在你的敬畏中坚立，保护我们的生命，通过 荣耀的诞神女永贞马利亚和你所有圣徒的祷告和代求，使我们的脚步坚定。」 Make straight our path, establish all in Thy fear, guard our life, make firm our footsteps through the prayers and intercessions of the glorious Theotokos and ever-virgin Mary and of all Thy saints.
我们在亚他拿修关于都灵莎草纸的讲道中读到，他敬奉马利亚 ——不是不恰当的——而是在敬奉她，并由此延伸到圣徒。 We read in Athanasius' homily on the Papyrus of Turin that he honors Mary—not improperly—but he’s honoring her, and the saints by extension.
阿诺比乌写道：「我们绝不崇拜殉道者，但我们尊敬他们，因为他们是神真正的敬拜者。」 Arnobius writes, We by no means adore the martyrs, but we honor them as the true adorers of God.
他在早些时候也说：「我们世世代代庄重地供奉他 们的身体，作为最宝贵的凭据，祝福的器皿。」 He also says in an earlier statement, We keep through every age their bodies decently enshrined as most precious pledges, vessels of benediction.
「殉道者保卫教会，如同士兵守卫城堡。」 The martyrs defend the Church as soldiers guard a citadel.
「人们从四面八方涌来，举行盛大的节日来纪念他们的坟墓。」 The people flock in crowds from all quarters and keep great festivals to honor their tombs.
他继续详细描述早期教会是如何理解吉姆所提到的经文的。 He goes on and on, describing how the early Church understood the Scriptures that Jim was referring to.
后来，奥古斯丁也强调敬奉圣徒的重要性，同时坚持真正的敬拜只应归于神。 Later, St. Augustine also emphasizes the importance of honoring the saints while maintaining that true worship is due to God alone.
亚历山大的区利罗、圣安布罗修、尼撒的圣格列高 利——所有这些不同的圣徒都对我们说这些话。 Cyril of Alexandria, St. Ambrose, St. Gregory of Nyssa—all of these different saints say these things to us.
我们看到奥古斯丁在他的信中，讲道313，提到殉道者西普里安说 ：「毕竟，对这样一位伟大殉道者的赞美不就是对神的赞美吗？」 We see St. Augustine saying in his letter, Sermon 313, referring to the martyr Cyprian, What, after all, are the praises of such a great martyr but the praises of God?
「或者说，西普里安全心归向神的功劳归于谁，不就是归于 那位被称为『万军之神，求你使我们回转』的那一位吗？」 Or to whose credit is it that Cyprian was converted to God with his whole heart but the One whom it was said, 'God of powers, convert us?'
所以奥古斯丁告诉我们，早期基督徒确实赞美殉道者。 So St. Augustine is telling us that the early Christians did in fact praise the martyrs.
他说：「殉道者的义是完全的，因为他们已经通过受苦得以完全。」 He says, The justice of the martyrs is perfect because they have been perfected by their sufferings.
这就是为什么教会不为他们祷告；为其他已故的信徒祷告，但不为殉道者祷告。 That’s why they aren’t prayed for in the Church; the other faithful departed are prayed for, not the martyrs.
他们已经离开了这个世界。 They have left the world.
所以你看，他们已经得以完全；他们不是我们的依靠者，而是我们的代求者。 So you see, they have perfected themselves; they are not our dependents but our advocates.
而且这也不是靠他们自己，而是靠着那一位，作 为他们的元首，他们紧紧依附祂如同祂的肢体。 And this too, not in themselves, but in the One whom, as their Head, they have stuck as close as His members.
你看，确实，祂是那位坐在父右边为我们代求的唯一中保。 You see, indeed, He is the one Advocate who intercedes for us, seated at the right hand of the Father.
我们继续读奥古斯丁的许多不同段落，但要记住吉姆写的话。 We go on and we read many different passages from Augustine, but keep in mind what Jim has written.
他说这些人——屈梭多模、亚他拿修和奥古斯丁 ——应该被研究以看他们是如何理解圣经的。 He’s saying that these men—Chrysostom, Athanasius, and Augustine—should be examined to see how they understood Scripture.
如果你读过屈梭多模、亚他拿修、奥古斯丁——更不用说其他众多早期教父——你会发 现，早期基督教会普遍理解圣经包含禁止拜偶像的内容，即禁止敬拜任何假神，但同时 也包含我们能够尊敬、敬奉并寻求那些在天上蒙福的基督身体肢体的代求这个事实。 If you go through and read Chrysostom, Athanasius, Augustine—not to mention the host of other early Church Fathers—you'll find that universally, the early Christian Church understood Scripture to contain a prohibition against idolatry, which is the worship of any false god, and yet it included the fact that we are able to honor, venerate, and seek the intercession of those blessed in heaven who are members of the one body of Christ.
现在，早先吉姆说基督身体的肢体与我们分离。 Now, earlier Jim said that the members of the body of Christ are separated from us.
这是不对的。 That is not true.
罗马书第8章说没有什么能使我们与基督的爱隔绝，这包括基督身体的所有肢体。 Romans 8 says that nothing can separate us from the love of Christ, and that includes all the members of the body of Christ.
吉姆，我们没有被死亡分离；我们也没有因为看不见他们而分离。 We’re not separated by death, Jim; we’re not separated by the fact that we can’t see them.
他们在天上，与基督联合。 They are in heaven, united with Christ.
他们仍然像以前一样爱我们；他们仍然像在世时一样为我们祷告。 They love us still as they always have; they’re praying for us still as they were on earth.
在詹姆斯的网站上，他有一篇文章提到他所说的粉饰，他说，似 乎任何关于古代神学的讨论都离不开奥古斯丁这个伟大的名字。 On James' website, he has an article referring to what he calls whitewash, and he says, It does not seem that any discussion of ancient theology can be pursued without invoking the great name of Augustine.
但现在，罗马论争者应该意识到奥古斯丁并不支持他们的立场。 But surely by now, Roman controversialists should be aware that Augustine is no friend of their cause.
好吧，刚才我们被告知应该看看奥古斯丁、屈梭多模和亚他拿修是 如何理解圣经的，我们反复看到他们祈求代祷；他们敬奉圣徒。 Well, a moment ago, we were told that we should look to Augustine, Chrysostom, and Athanasius to see how they understood Scripture, and we see repeatedly that they invoke the intercession; they honor the saints.
这就是他们解释圣经的方式。 That is how they interpreted Scripture.
我们看到奥古斯丁的其他一些段落也告诉我们同样的事情。 We see some other passages from St. Augustine that tell us the same thing.
但所有这些的关键是要记住，早期基督徒在圣经中区分了dulia和latria。 But the key to all of this is to remember that the early Christians made a distinction between dulia and latria in Scripture.
Dulia和latria只出现在关于敬拜神的地方，从不用于人。 Dulia and latria appear only with regard to the worship of God, never to human beings.
Dulia在其动词形式和名词形式中到处出现——事实上，据我统计超过200次。 Dulia appears all over the place in its verbal forms and in its noun forms—over 200 times, in fact, by my count.
其中一些例子指的是对人的事奉；一些指的是对神的事奉。 Some of those instances refer to service to human beings; some refer to service to God.
但早期教会明白，我们永远不应该越过界限，通过给予圣徒——一个单纯的 受造物——那种只应归给神我们的创造者的敬拜和尊崇而陷入偶像崇拜。 But the early Church understood that we should never cross the line into idolatry by giving worship and honor to a saint, a mere creature, that we would be rendering only to God, our Creator.
所以对这两个词的所有强调，虽然很有趣，但实际上并不能解决吉姆今晚的 问题，因为他必须向我们解释今晚辩论的主题是如何反对我而支持他的。 So all of the emphasis upon those two words, as interesting as it is, really doesn’t solve the problem for Jim tonight because he has to explain to us how the thesis statement in the debate tonight goes against me and for him.
如果早期基督徒确实是基督的真正追随者，他们为什么会普遍相信并教导敬奉圣徒呢？ How is it that the early Christians believed in and taught universally the veneration of the saints if, in fact, they were the true followers of Christ?
谢谢。 Thank you.
我想很快纠正一个误解，即在阿拉法俄梅戛事工网站的任何地方，我都没有以任何 方式、形式或形态将奥古斯丁、亚他拿修和约翰屈梭多模设立为圣经之外的权威。 I would like to correct very quickly the misapprehension that anywhere on the Alpha and Omega Ministries website did I in any way, shape, or form set up Augustine, Athanasius, and John Chrysostom as extra-biblical authorities.
如果你真正读了所给的引用，我说的是，让我们看看 他们关于圣经的教导，看看是否与罗马的教导一致。 If you’ll actually read the reference that is given, what I was saying is, Let’s look at what they taught about Scripture and see if it’s consistent with what Rome teaches.
这与说「哦，我们应该看看他们，然后给他们特殊地位 ，以至于我们应该相信他们所说的」是非常不同的。 That is a very different thing than saying, Oh, we should look at them and then give them a special status to where we should believe what they have to say.
我今天不会对任何人这样做；我对改革家们也不这样做。 I don’t do that with anyone today; I don’t do that with Reformers.
事实上，我对任何未受默示的人都不这样做。 In fact, I don’t do that with any uninspired person.
不管是谁在写基督教真理；我都用神的道的标准来 衡量他们，这实际上是我们所有人都应该做的。 It doesn’t matter who’s writing about Christian truth; I hold them to the standard of God’s Word, and that’s what all of us should, in fact, be doing.
现在，马德里先生谈到早期教会。 Now, Mr. Madrid speaks about the early Church.
让我在这里给你们几个引用，因为我们刚刚被告知有这种普遍的观点。 Let me give you just a couple of quotations while I’m at it because we were just told there was this universal perspective.
那么，为什么会…… Well, why did...
为什么这些话在四世纪中期就出现了？ Why did these words appear as early as the middle of the fourth century?
这里我们有一个旅行者，塞浦路斯萨拉米斯的主教埃皮法尼乌斯。 Here we have someone traveling, Epiphanius, who’s the Bishop of Salamis in Cyprus.
他说：「我问这是什么地方，得知是一座教堂，我就进去 祷告，发现那教堂的门上挂着一件染色和绣花的东西。」 He says, Asking what place it was and learning it to be a church, I went in to pray and found there a certain hanging on the doors of the said church, dyed and embroidered.
「上面有基督或某位圣徒的图像；我不太记得是谁的图像了。」 It bore an image either of Christ or of one of the saints; I do not rightly remember whose the image was.
「看到这个，我厌恶在基督的教会里违背圣经的教导悬挂人的图像， 我就把它撕开，建议这地方的管理人把它用作某个穷人的裹尸布。」 Seeing this and being loathed that an image of a man should be hung up in Christ's church contrary to the teaching of the Scriptures, I tore it asunder and advised the custodians of the place to use it as a winding sheet for some poor person.
我想他并不欣赏它在那里的存在。 I don't think he appreciated its presence there.
拉克坦修说：「是这些魔鬼教人制作图像和雕像，为了使人的心思 转离对真神的敬拜，他们使死去的君王的容貌被精美地塑造和装饰 ，被竖立和奉献，并假借他们的名字，好像在扮演某些角色。」 Lactantius said, These are the demons who taught men to make images and statues, who, in order that they might turn away the minds of men from the worship of the true God, caused the countenances of dead kings fashioned and adorned with exquisite beauty to be erected and consecrated, and assumed themselves their names as though they were assuming some characters.
为什么这些不是所谓基督教传统的载体？ Why aren't these the containers of the alleged Christian tradition?
确实，让我指出，在公元300年西班牙的埃尔维拉会议明确禁 止在教会使用图画，说：「所敬拜和崇拜的不应画在墙上。」 Indeed, let me point out that the Council of Elvira in the year 300 in Spain specifically forbade the use of pictures in churches, saying, So that that which is worshipped and adored shall not be painted on the walls.
这是在尼西亚会议之前；这比第二次尼西亚会议早将近五 个世纪，而第二次尼西亚会议才定义敬奉图像为正当。 That’s before the Council of Nicaea; that’s almost five centuries prior to the Second Nicene Council, where the veneration of images was defined as being proper.
为什么这不能定义基督教传统？ Why isn't that definitional of Christian tradition?
历史图景是清晰的。 The historical picture is clear.
当我们看幸存的著作，首先出现的是向殉道者祷告，然 后是向圣徒普遍祷告，然后是天使，最后是敬奉图像。 As we look at the surviving writings, first comes prayer to martyrs, then saints in general, then angels, and finally veneration of images.
当然，在教会的最初几个世纪并没有普遍认同的信仰。 There is, of course, no universally agreed-upon belief in the first centuries of the Church.
许多教父从未提及这些事情就离世了；人们只是假设他们相信这些事情。 Many Fathers pass without ever making mention of such things; it is just assumed that they believed such things.
学术性的公教会资料清楚地承认，不同的早期教父确实反对，例如在敬拜中使用图像。 Scholarly Catholic sources clearly recognize that various early Fathers spoke against, for example, the use of images in worship.
这一点是不被否认的。 That is not something that is denied.
事实上，在第二次尼西亚会议上，当基于传统定义敬奉图像时，在第四次会议中， 主教们读了据称支持敬奉图像的圣经段落，然后是支持这一点的早期教父引文。 In fact, at the Second Nicene Council, where the veneration of images was defined on the basis of tradition, in the fourth session, the bishops read passages that allegedly promoted from the Bible the veneration of images and then quotations from early Fathers that supported this.
然后他们提出了教义法令。 They then presented the dogmatic decree.
两次会议之后，没有读经；开始读一份反对这一点 的早期教父名单，但他们甚至没有读完这份名单。 Two sessions later, no reading of the Bible; a list of early Church Fathers who opposed this began to be read, but they didn’t even finish reading the list.
他们直接拒绝了它，然后对任何写文反对敬奉图像的人施 以咒诅，我猜这包括那些他们没有读完名单的早期教父。 They just rejected it and then placed an anathema upon anyone who would write against the veneration of images, which I guess would include the early Church Fathers whose list they didn’t finish reading.
这就是在一个据称无误的大公会议中提供教义教导时的思维和行为。 Now that is the thinking and the activity that went into the providing of the dogmatic teaching in an allegedly infallible council.
我想指出我不知道有任何人…… I’d like to point out that I’m not aware of anyone...
我想问帕特里克是否知道：在基督诞生787年后的第二次尼西 亚会议上，距使徒时代八个世纪，是否有人能读懂希伯来语？ I’d like to ask Patrick if he knows: was there anyone at the Second Nicene Council, 787 years after the birth of Christ, eight centuries removed from the apostles, who could even read the Hebrew language?
谁能熟练地读新约希腊文并将其与希腊文七十士译本 或旧约比较，以便知道这是否与圣经所说的一致？ Who could even read the New Testament Greek with proficiency and compare it with the Greek Septuagint or the Old Testament so that they could know whether this was consistent with what the Bible said?
我们已经在很多段落中看到了这一点。 We've already seen this in so many passages.
这又该如何解释？ What about that?
现在，我们被告知，好吧，奥古斯丁，顺便说一下他不懂希伯来语，不能读希伯来语，他 完全不知道十诫中使用的avad这个词，被同时翻译成latria和dulia。 Now, we have been told, Well, Augustine, who by the way knew no Hebrew, could not read the Hebrew language, would have been completely unaware of the fact that avad, the very word used in the Ten Commandments, is translated by both latria and dulia.
他引用奥古斯丁，而奥古斯丁的希腊语也不太好。 He quotes Augustine, whose Greek wasn’t very good either.
有趣的是，他曾与耶柔米就圣经正典的问题发生争论。 It’s interesting; he had an argument with Jerome on the subject of the canon of Scripture.
早先被引用的耶柔米——如果他是传统的载体，为什么他对旁经的拒绝不是传统？ Jerome, who was cited earlier—if he is a container of tradition, why wasn’t his rejection of the Apocrypha tradition?
我的意思是，一旦我们开始询问早期教父的传统问题，这就像今天去基督教书店一样。 I mean, once we start asking this issue of tradition going to the early Church Fathers, it’s like going to the Christian bookstore today.
你能在今天的基督教书店找到一个单一的东西，一个单一的教导吗？ Are you going to find one single thing, one single teaching, at your Christian bookstore today?
我真希望你们没有人走进去就认为这些都是同样好的书。 I sure hope none of you walk in there and think these are all equally good books.
里面有一些好书，但也有很多糟糕的书，还有一些由非常无知的人写的书。 There are a few good books in there, but there’s a whole lot of bad books in there, and there are books written by people who are very ignorant in there.
如果你真正读教父——不是只读选集，而是真正 读教父——你会发现各种各样相当无知的说法。 And if you actually read the Fathers—not just selections, but actually read the Fathers—you’ll find all sorts of statements that quite simply are very ignorant.
我们是否应该简单地向那些东西屈服，好像它们somehow对我们有约束力？ Are we supposed to just simply bow down to that as if that’s somehow a binding authority upon us?
即使在引用奥古斯丁的引文中，奥古斯丁关于加拉太书4:8的 理解也是错误的，在那里保罗明确使用dulia这个词，而这 只能被理解为在七十士译本中会被翻译为latria的词。 Even in the citation quoted from Augustine, Augustine was wrong in regards to Galatians 4:8, where Paul clearly utilizes the term dulia in regards to what can only be understood as a word that would have been translated latria in the Septuagint.
这显然是敬拜。 It’s clearly worship.
不管是奥古斯丁还是亚他拿修或其他任何人——我、改革家们、 菲茨迈耶、布朗——不管他们是谁；人都要接受神的道的纠正。 Augustine or Athanasius or anyone else—me, Reformers, Fitzmyer, Brown—it doesn’t matter who they are; men stand corrected by the Word of God.
现在，正如我所说，我在提供的引文中并没有将亚 他拿修、奥古斯丁和屈梭多模设立为某种标准。 Now, as I said, I did not establish Athanasius, Augustine, and Chrysostom as some sort of standard in the citation that was provided.
我引用他们是为了证明罗马公教会关于普遍传统的主张是谬误的。 I do cite from them to demonstrate that the assertion of a universal tradition on the part of Roman Catholics is fallacious.
早先给你们看的那三卷书——比尔·韦伯斯特和大卫·金写的1100多页 ——毫无疑问地证明了这些书的公平和完整阅读都有充分的文献记载，经常 给你们希腊文和拉丁文两种版本，以及你们可以自己查证的参考资料。 There are the three volumes that were shown to you earlier—1,100-plus pages by Bill Webster and David King—demonstrating without any questions that a fair and full reading of those books is fully documented, frequently giving you both the Greek and Latin and the references where you can look them up for yourself.
完整阅读这些教父文献不会给你罗马公教会关于圣经权威及其充分性的普遍观点。 A full reading of those patristic sources will not give you the universal perspective of the Roman Catholic Church in regards to the authority of Scripture and its sufficiency.
相反，当我引用早期教父时，我看待他们就像我看待今天我尊重其著作的人一样。 Instead, when I cite from the early Church Fathers, I can see them just like I see men whose writings I respect today.
你接受与神的道相和谐的内容，而不相和谐的只是来自人的心。 You accept what is in harmony with the Word of God, and that which is not simply comes from the heart of man.
这就是我们作为信徒在此生经历的本质。 That is the nature of what we experience in this life as believers.
所以当我们看什么是基督教传统时，为什么马德里先生读 的引文被认为是传统，而我读的引文不被认为是传统？ So when we look at what Christian tradition is, why are the citations Mr. Madrid has read considered tradition, and the citations that I read are not considered tradition?
根本上，因为罗马这样说。 Fundamentally, because Rome says so.
唯教会论：罗马定义什么是圣经，罗马定义圣经说什 么，罗马定义什么是传统，罗马定义传统说什么。 Sola Ecclesia: Rome defines what the Bible is, Rome defines what the Bible says, Rome defines what tradition is, and Rome defines what tradition says.
这使罗马公教会成为一切事物的最终权威。 That makes the Roman Catholic Church the ultimate authority in all things.
所以从根本上说，对罗马公教徒来说，这个特定论题 中的第二个主张是既定的；根据定义必须相信它。 So fundamentally, the second assertion in this particular thesis for the Roman Catholic is a given; it must be believed by definition.
因为如果罗马说这是传统，那就是传统。 Because if Rome has said this is the tradition, then it is.
问题是，一个想要相信真理和理解真理的人必须得出结论，唯一的方 法就是首先，作为你的第一个行动，接受罗马公教会的最终权威。 The problem is that a person who wants to believe truth and understand truth would have to come to the conclusion that the only way to do that is, first and foremost, as your first act, to accept the ultimate authority of the Roman Catholic Church.
而不这样做有各种理由，首要的是主耶稣和使徒从未告诉我们这样做。 And there are all sorts of reasons not to do that, first and foremost being that the Lord Jesus and the apostles never told us to do it.
当保罗告诉提摩太要转向那默示的源头时，他并没有接着说：「哦 ，一旦罗马主教被立，你就可以去那里决定什么是对什么是错。」 When Paul told Timothy to turn to that which is theanoustos as your source, he did not in the next breath say, Oh, and once the Bishop of Rome has been established, then you can go there to determine what is right and what is wrong.
这不是圣经的教导。 That is not a biblical teaching.
所以当我们问，好吧，罗马说这是传统，那为什么这些其他的引文不是传统？ So when we ask, Well, Rome has said this is tradition, well, why aren't these other citations tradition?
为什么早500年的埃尔维拉会议不是？ Why isn't the Council of Elvira, 500 years earlier?
为什么那不代表使徒传统？ Why doesn't that represent apostolic tradition?
对罗马公教徒来说只有一个答案，那就是因为罗马这样说。 There is only one answer for the Roman Catholic, and that is because Rome says so.
这很类似于我1993年在波士顿学院与一位名叫杰里·马蒂蒂克斯的人的辩论——就是帕 特里克和我最后一次在圣地亚哥辩论的那一年——至少这里比那时凉快多了，凉快多了。 Very similar to the debate that I had with a fellow by the name of Jerry Matitix at Boston College in 1993—the same year that Patrick and I last debated in San Diego—and at least it’s cooler in here than it was then, a lot cooler.
那是关于旁经的辩论，其中的基本论点是，罗马公教会是对的，因为公教会说是对的。 That was on the Apocrypha, and the fundamental argument there was, The Roman Catholic Church is right because the Catholic Church says so.
嗯，这是一个权威论证，这是一个循环论证。 Well, that’s an argument from authority, and that’s a circular argument.
一旦你开始把它画出来，就会发现它真的没有任何理性的分量。 Once you start diagramming it out, it really does not hold any rational weight.
这里也是同样的道理。 The same thing is true here.
比如当我们谈论祷告这个词的使用时，马德里先 生站起来说，你在祷告这个词上玩文字游戏。 When we talk about the use, for example, of the word prayer, Mr. Madrid got up and said, You're equivocating on the word prayer.
我实际上要说，文字游戏是在往另一个方向走。 I would actually say the equivocation is going the other direction.
我在使用祷告这个词时是很一致的。 I'm very consistent in my use of the word prayer.
我对祷告这个词的使用是符合圣经的用法。 My use of the word prayer is the biblical use.
祷告是交流；是受造物与造物主之间的交流。 Prayer is communication; it’s communication between the creature and his Creator.
这种交流之所以发生，是因为神的灵将我心中的思想和意图传达给父。 It is communication that is brought about because God's Spirit communicates to the Father the thoughts and intentions of my heart.
我可以就在这里低头；不用说一句话，我就能祷告。 I can simply bow my head right here; I don't have to say a word, and I can pray.
圣徒怎么知道我们在地上祷告什么？ How does a saint know what we're praying here on earth?
如果我向圣徒祷告——看，如果我走到一个人面前说 ，我希望你为我祷告，我是在使用正常的人类交流。 And if I pray to a saint—see, if I walk up to a person and say, I'd like you to pray for me, I'm using normal human communication.
但你看，向圣徒祷告，谁来把这个传达给他们？ But you see, to pray to a saint, who’s going to communicate that to them?
他们是否以某种方式获得了某种特殊能力，能够读懂人 的心思意念，而这顺便说一句，只是神才有的能力？ Do they somehow gain some special ability to be able to read the hearts and minds of men, which, by the way, is only a divine capacity?
或者圣灵不知何故不仅成为为我们代求的保惠师？ Or does the Holy Spirit somehow not only become the Comforter who intercedes for us?
你看，新约中描述圣徒是那些在基督耶稣里进入安息的人。 You see, saints in the New Testament are described as those who have entered into rest in Jesus Christ.
哦，如果这些圣徒知道今天这么多人不断地把苦难放在他们门前，那该是多么悲惨的事。 Oh, what a tragedy it would be if any of those saints had any idea of the woes that are constantly laid upon their doorstep by so many people today.
他们怎么能安息呢？ How could they be at rest?
当他们已经摆脱的生命中的疾病和病痛不断地被放在他们门前时，他们怎么能得到平安？ How could they be at peace when constantly the diseases and sicknesses of the life from which they have been delivered are laid upon their doorstep?
我非常感恩我主耶稣听这些祷告。 I'm very thankful my Lord Jesus hears those prayers.
我们看到有人断言我们在谈论祷告时在玩文字游戏。 We have seen the assertion that we are equivocating when we talk about prayer.
不，我是很一致的。 No, I'm being very consistent.
是罗马公教会在玩文字游戏，说当我向神祷告，那是一回事，但我向圣徒祷告是另一回事。 It’s the Roman Catholic that equivocates by saying, When I pray to God, that’s one thing, but I pray to a saint; it’s something else.
我只是在与圣徒交流，但我是在以敬拜的方式与神交流。 I’m just communicating to the saint, but I’m communicating adoring God.
如果你承认那位圣徒以某种方式有能力帮助你——你很清楚那些祷 告；我甚至向你提到过——我将我的灵魂托付给马利亚的祷告。 If you are acknowledging that that saint has some means of, in some way, aiding you—and you well know the prayers that are out there; I even mentioned them to you—I commit my spirit prayed to Mary.
那不仅仅是交流。 That is not just communication.
那是敬拜，而且按照圣经，正如我们所看到的，那是错误的。 That is worship, and biblically, as we have seen, that is wrong.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我要感谢两位讲者遵守时间限制，现在我们也要请你们做同样的事。 I want to thank both of the speakers for abiding by the time limit, and now we're going to ask that you do exactly the same thing.
从我说完开始你们有15分钟时间，可以去拿咖啡或水，或使用后面的洗手间。 You have 15 minutes from the time I'm done speaking so you can get coffee or water or make use of the restrooms at the back.
我会在13分钟时给你们提醒。 I’ll give you a warning at 13 minutes.
我想提醒各位和我们的辩论者今天的主题是什么。 I want to remind all of you and our debaters of what the topic is.
主题是：向圣徒祷告和敬奉圣徒，以及敬奉代表 他们的圣像，是与圣经和基督教传统相符的。 The topic is: Prayer to and veneration of the saints, as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them, is compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition.
这是我们今晚的主题。 That is our topic for the evening.
我们现在还有一个小时的辩论，按以下方式分配：我们将有马德里先生主导的交叉询问。 We will have now one further hour of the debate, broken down in this way: we will have cross-examinations led by Mr. Madrid.
这些交叉询问每次12分钟。 Those cross-examinations will be of 12 minutes each.
交叉询问的目的是提问并从对方获取更多信息。 The purpose of a cross-examination is to ask questions and to receive further information from the other speaker.
之后，将有每人8分钟的反驳时间，然后是每人10分钟的结束陈词。 Following that, there will be a rebuttal with each person speaking for eight minutes, and then following that, there will be closing statements of 10 minutes each.
之后，将有大约50分钟的提问时间。 Following that, there should be approximately 50 minutes for your questions.
你们提问的时间将限制在30秒内，这将被严格执行。 Your time to ask questions will be limited to 30 seconds, and that will be rigidly enforced.
我建议如果你们有问题，把它们写下来，这样当你们拿到麦克风 时，可以读出问题然后坐下，让马德里先生和怀特先生回答。 I would suggest that if you have questions, you write them down so that when you get the microphone, you can read the question and sit down and let Mr. Madrid and Mr. White respond.
我们现在开始由马德里先生主导的第一轮交叉询问。 We will now begin with the first cross-examination led by Mr. Madrid.
吉姆？ Jim?
吉姆：哦，在这里。 Jim: Oh, here.
帕特里克：你在那儿啊。 Patrick: There you are.
你能否举出任何时期的一份教会文献——一份公教会文献——其中公教会说duli a和latria这两个词应当表示对圣徒的敬意与只对神合宜的敬意是相同的？ Could you name for us a single ecclesiastical document from any era—a Catholic document—in which the Catholic Church says that the terms dulia and latria are supposed to indicate the same reverential attitude toward the saints that would be proper to God alone?
换句话说，是否有任何教会文献中公教会说我们对 圣徒的敬意在某种程度上与我们对神的敬意相同？ In other words, is there any Church document where the Catholic Church says that the reverence that we owe to the saints is somehow the same as that which we owe to God?
吉姆：我不明白这个问题。 Jim: I don't understand that question.
听起来你是在问我公教会在哪里说过latria和 dulia就是圣经所启示的那样是可以互换的。 It sounds like you're asking me where the Catholic Church has said latria and dulia are what the Bible reveals them to be and that is interchangeable.
你是在问这个吗？ Is that what you're asking?
帕特里克：不是。换句话说，教会以特定方式使用这些词。 Patrick: No. In other words, the Church uses the terms in particular ways.
现在，我认识到这不是你使用它们的方式，事实上，教会承认圣经以 不同方式使用这些词——dulia可以用于人，也可以用于神。 Now, I recognize that it's not the way that you use them, and in fact, the Church recognizes that Scripture uses the terms in different ways—that dulia can be used for humans as well as for God.
但我想知道你是否能指出任何地方，公教会说公教徒和东正教徒 对天上圣徒的敬奉在某种程度上与只给予神的敬奉是相同的。 But I'm wondering if you can point to any place where the Catholic Church says that the veneration that Catholics and Orthodox give to the saints in heaven is somehow the same as the veneration that is given to God alone.
好吧，首先，我要说的是，在你刚才说的背景下，latri a这个词在宗教背景中只用于神，而不用于任何其他背景。 Well, first of all, I would say that in the context of what you just said, that the term latria is in a religious context only given to God, not in any other context.
但如果你问我在第二次尼西亚公会议之前或类似 时期这个问题在哪里被讨论过，我认为没有。 But if you're asking me where that has been addressed prior to, for example, the Second Nicene Council or something like that, I don't believe that it was.
我相信至少第一个教义上的区分是在那里划定的，虽然我不知 道这是否真的包含在教义法令中，但至少在会议的讨论中有。 I believe at least the first dogmatic distinction that is drawn is drawn there, even though I don't know that that was actually included in the dogmatic decrees, but at least in the deliberations of the council.
所以我不知道在埃尔维拉之外的任何会议环境中有这样的讨论，我 也不知道埃尔维拉在谈到敬拜和服事时使用的原始术语是什么。 So I am unaware of any discussion of this in a conciliar setting outside of Elvira, and I don't know what the original terminology of Elvira was when it spoke of worship and service.
我没能找到能告诉我那些原始术语是什么的原始资料。 I've not been able to find an original source that would tell me what those original terms were.
所以没有。 So no.
好的，继续追问，这将引出我接下来的问题。 Okay, just to follow up, and this will lead into my question here.
我问这个问题的原因是，我今晚要说的是，公教会区分了我们向神献上d ulia和latria的方式，以及向圣徒献上dulia的方式。 The reason that I'm asking that question is because the assertion that I'm making here tonight is that the Catholic Church has drawn a distinction between the way in which we offer dulia and latria to God and the dulia that would be offered to the saints.
所以这就是接下来这个问题的背景：你能否为我们列举一些早期基督教礼仪？ So that’s the context of this next question coming up: can you name for us any early Christian liturgies?
我们知道从第一世纪末开始就有大量的礼仪。 And we know they abounded from the end of the first century forward.
你能否列举任何从使徒时代末期开始的早期基督教礼仪，其中不 包含对马利亚和圣徒的敬奉以及提到他们为我们代求的内容？ Can you name any of the early Christian liturgies dating from the end of the apostolic era that did not contain elements of veneration of Mary and the saints and references to their intercession on our behalf?
实际上，早期礼仪——你在你刚才的断言中做出了两个假设——你继续假定 现代罗马公教会与古代大公教会是同一的，而这是一个尚未确立的问题。 Well, actually, the early liturgies—you’re assuming both in the assertion that you just made—you continue to assume the identity of the modern Roman Catholic Church with the ancient Catholic Church, and that is an issue that has not been established.
这是你的一个预设，我因为很多原因会拒绝这个预 设，如果你愿意，我们可以深入讨论这个问题。 That is a presupposition on your part that I would reject for many reasons, and we can go into that if you wish to do so.
其次，就你如何定义礼仪以及什么会被接受为礼仪而言，在最 原始的礼仪中，你不会找到这些类型的敬奉概念的完整要素。 Secondly, as far as what you define as a liturgy and what will be accepted as liturgies, in the most primitive liturgies, you would not find whole elements of these kinds of concepts of veneration.
直到殉道者开始出现在礼仪角色中，你才开始看到向他们提出请求。 It’s not until the martyrs begin to appear in the roles of the liturgies that you begin to see requests being made of them.
这是随时间发展的结果。 It is a development over time.
但显然，我认为礼仪最重要的来源是默示的圣经，我要说在默示 的圣经中每一个敬拜神的例子都缺少你刚才提到的所有要素。 But obviously, I believe the most important source of liturgy is the inspired Scriptures, and I would say that every single example of worship of God in the inspired Scriptures lacks all of the elements that you just mentioned.
好，作为交叉询问的后续问题，早期礼仪很多。 Well, as a follow-up question in the cross-exam, the early liturgies abound.
实际上，现存的每一个礼仪都包含请求圣徒代求的要素，也包含对他们的敬奉纪念。 Actually, every single one of them that’s extant contains elements of requesting the intercession of the saints and also a commemoration that is venerating of them.
这个问题背后的真正问题是：你如何解释这个事实，即在早期教会中，从最早的时期开始， 礼仪——这是教会自己使用的术语——普遍包含这些敬奉、尊崇和请求圣徒代求的要素？ The real question behind that question is: how do you account for the fact that universally in the early Church, from the earliest days, the liturgies—and that’s the term that the Church herself used—contain these elements of veneration, honor, and asking for the intercession of the saints?
你如何解释这一点？ How do you account for that?
几点说明：我拒绝这样的假设，即说每一个都包含就意味着在 依纳爵的著作中没有礼仪，没有敬拜的例子，实际上是有的。 A couple of things: I would reject the assumption that every single one of them means that there is no liturgy in Ignatius, that there’s no example of worship, and there is.
我的意思是，他写给以弗所人的信充满了礼仪用语，可以被认定为 一种古老的礼仪形式，而在依纳爵的著作中没有任何这样的内容。 I mean, his letter to the Ephesians is filled with liturgical phrases and would be identified as an ancient form of liturgy, and there’s nothing about any of that in Ignatius.
在坡旅甲、罗马的克莱门特的著作中也没有。 There’s nothing in Polycarp, Clement of Rome.
在罗马的克莱门特的著作中有各种各样的段落可以被认定为早期礼仪声明。 There are all sorts of sections in Clement of Rome that would be identified as early liturgical statements.
显然，你使用的礼仪这个词的含义与我的用法有很大不 同，因为这实际上会否定我们所有最早的教父文献。 Evidently, you’re functioning with a meaning of the term liturgy that is significantly different than what I would use in that way because it would, in essence, dismiss all the earliest patristic sources we have.
但至于找到这些东西的要素，没有人质疑这一点。 But as to finding elements of these things, no one questions that.
我在演讲中说过，你会发现这是随时间发展的。 I said in my presentation that you will find this development over time.
我主张的是，你必须通过神所启示的、使祂喜悦的事来检验任何发 展，事实上，检验任何人的任何活动——特别是关于敬拜神的事。 What I asserted was that you have to test any development and, in fact, any activity by anyone—especially when it’s in regards to the worship of God—by what God has revealed is pleasing to Him.
继续说，提摩太前书2:1-4告诉我们，正如我们先前讨论的，我们被告知 要为所有人祷告、恳求和代求，因为这种爱心和祷告是神我们救主所喜悦的。 Moving on, 1 Timothy 2:1-4 tells us, as we talked about earlier, that we are told to pray for, supplicate, and offer petitions for everyone because this sort of charity and prayer is good and pleasing to God our Savior.
当我们这样做时，这是神我们救主所喜悦的。 It’s good and pleasing to God our Savior when we do this.
你能否解释一下，如果我们在地上为我们在地上的基督徒同伴向神祷告 、恳求和代求是神所喜悦的，那么为什么当天上的圣徒为我们做这些圣 经命令所有基督徒做的事时，却somehow被禁止且不蒙神喜悦？ Could you explain to us how it is that our praying, supplicating, and offering petitions to God on behalf of our fellow Christians on earth, while we are on earth, if that is good and pleasing to God, how is it that it somehow is forbidden and not pleasing to God when the saints in heaven do those very things on our behalf that Scripture commands from all Christians?
嗯，有趣的是当你引用提摩太前书2章时，保罗在这里没有提 到任何向圣徒祷告和恳求，或者他们在为我们祷告和代求。 Well, it’s interesting when you cite 1 Timothy 2 that Paul makes no mention here anywhere of prayers and petitions to saints or that they are praying and petitioning for us.
其次，当你问祷告和代求是为了什么时，例如，这里说，为 君王和一切在位的，使我们可以敬虔、平安地度日，等等。 Secondly, when you ask what is praying and petitioning for, for example, it says here, kings and all those in authority, that we may live godly and peaceful lives, and so on and so forth.
所以这是在谈论，比如，祈求神使那些逼迫基督徒的人停止逼迫他们。 So this is talking about, for example, petitioning God that those who are persecuting the Christians would stop persecuting them.
在天上你不再受逼迫；因此，这不会是你需要做的事。 You’re not persecuted any longer in heaven; therefore, that’s not going to be something you’re going to need to do.
所以我们在地上做的许多事是好的。 So there are many things that are good that we do here on earth.
正如我提到的，为你的弟兄姐妹祷告，使他们能够抵挡罪恶是好的。 As I mentioned, it is good to pray for your brothers and sisters that they will strive against sin.
这不是你在天上要做的事，因为你在神的同在中。 That is not something you’re going to be doing in heaven because you’re in the presence of God.
你能给我们一段圣经经文，告诉我们天上的圣徒不能或不会为我们祷告吗？ Can you give us a passage in Scripture that tells us that the saints in heaven cannot or will not pray for us?
没有提到天上的圣徒对地上的祷告做什么，因为 没有提到他们参与了解地球上人类的罪恶行为。 There is no reference to what the saints in heaven are doing in regards to prayers here on earth because there is no reference to their being involved with having knowledge of the sinful actions of human beings here upon the planet.
我所熟悉的唯一相关经文是有人会在启示录中提出的，实际上，这些都是需要 各种假设的启示性段落，而不是教牧书信中那些清晰的段落，或者保罗在罗马 书12章中谈论基督徒生活的段落，或类似的你会期望出现这些内容的地方。 The only references that I’m familiar with that anyone would put forward to that in the book of Revelation, in reality, are apocalyptic passages that require all sorts of assumptions rather than those clear passages in the pastoral epistles or passages where Paul’s talking about living the Christian life in Romans 12 or things like that, where you’d expect such things to appear.
这些内容并没有出现。 They do not appear.
相反，正如我所说，必须引用启示录中的段落来试图提出这些事。 Instead, passages, as I said, in Revelation have to be brought into play to try to bring those things up.
我想你指的是启示录第5章第6节及以后，以及启示录第8章，其 中我们看到长老们站在神的宝座前，将地上圣徒的祷告献给神。 I think you’re referring to Revelation chapter 5, verses 6 and forward, and also Revelation chapter 8, in which we see the elders standing before the throne of God offering to God the prayers of the holy ones here on earth.
现在，这没有什么不清楚的，我们也不应该在这些 经文中找到任何东西来质疑这些清晰的圣经解读。 Now, there’s nothing unclear about that, and there’s nothing that we should take in those passages to impugn these clear readings of Scripture.
我的意思是，圣经的明显含义是这些人，这些长老， 站在神的宝座前，像香一样献上地上圣徒的祷告。 I mean, the plain meaning of Scripture is that these men, these elders, are standing before the throne of God, offering like incense the prayers of the holy ones here on earth.
那么，我们为什么要忽视这些经文，认为它们somehow与我们今晚的讨论不相符呢？ So how is it that we should disregard those passages as somehow being not consonant with our discussion tonight?
我从未说过它们应该以任何方式、形式或形态被忽视。 I’ve never said that they are in any way, shape, or form to be disregarded.
我说的是，它们与天上有圣徒接受地上人的祷告，然后 为向他们祷告的地上人在神面前代求这个想法无关。 I have said that they have nothing to do with the idea that there are saints in heaven who are receiving prayers from people on earth, and they are then interceding before God on behalf of people on earth who have prayed to them.
如果你想给我指出启示录第5章中哪里说，比如，这些长老本身就是圣徒，或者他们是 接受这些祷告的人，或者这些祷告是向他们祷告的，这根本不是对经文的清晰解读。 If you’d like to show me where in Revelation chapter 5 it is said that, for example, these elders are saints themselves or that they are the ones who received these prayers or that these prayers were prayed to them, that is not the clear reading of the text at all.
至少我不会这样主张。 At least I would not assert that it is.
我会主张这是对经文的明显解读。 I would assert that it is the plain reading of the text.
启示录5:8：当祂拿了书卷，四活物和二十四位长老就俯伏在羔羊面前。 Revelation 5:8: When He took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb.
每位长老都拿着琴和盛满了香的金炉，这香就是众圣徒的祷告。 Each of the elders held a harp and golden bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones.
现在，这在启示录第8章又重复了。所以很明显，经文的字面意思是他 们确实接受了这些圣徒的祷告，现在正在神的宝座前呈献这些祷告。 Now, this is repeated in Revelation chapter 8. So clearly, the plain reading of the text is that they did receive these prayers of the holy ones, and they are now presenting them before the throne of God.
这就是字面意思。 That is the plain reading.
嗯，我完全不同意这是字面意思，因为那样的话，比如说，当天 使拿着盛满神忿怒的印和碗时，就意味着天使接受了神的忿怒。 Well, I completely and totally disagree that it’s a plain reading because that would mean that, for example, when the angels have seals and bowls that are filled with the wrath of God, that means the angels received the wrath of God.
显然不是这样！ Obviously not!
这些是在神面前有特殊地位的个体。 These are individuals who have a special place before God.
首先，没有任何东西表明他们是得荣耀的圣徒。 Nothing identifies them as being glorified saints in the first place.
事实上，在启示录第4章中，他们与活物在一起，不断地在神面前俯伏。 In fact, in Revelation chapter 4, they are seen as being with the living creatures, and they’re constantly bowing down before God.
没有任何东西表明他们是得荣耀的圣徒，这从一开始就破坏了这种平行关系。 There’s no identification of them as being glorified saints, which destroys the parallelism to begin with.
其次，没有任何内容说，每个人拿着琴和盛满香的金炉，这香 就是众圣徒的祷告，意味着他们接受了向他们发出的祷告。 And secondly, there is nothing saying that it says, Each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints, means that they received those prayers directed to them.
经文中甚至没有任何暗示这一点的内容。 There’s nothing in the text that even begins to suggest that.
哦，事实上，它确实开始暗示这一点。 Oh, it does begin to suggest it, as a matter of fact.
他们拥有那些盛满祷告的碗，唯一的原因是他们确实 接受了这些祷告；否则，他们不可能拥有这些祷告。 The only way that they have those bowls of prayers is because they did receive them; otherwise, they would have no way to have those prayers.
这些祷告来自地上，来自圣徒们，并且来到他们那里。 The prayers came from the earth; they came from the holy ones, and they came to them.
下一个问题。 Next question.
吉姆，如果你今晚去世——你觉得这个开头如何？ Jim, if you died tonight—how do you like the start of that one?
如果你今晚去世，根据哥林多前书12章，你是否仍然是基督身体中一个完 全发挥功用的肢体？如果是的话，你能否指出圣经在哪里对你死后在基督身 体中参与祷告、代求、恳求和感恩——这些对基督的身体是合宜的并在提摩 太前书2:1-4中被命令的事——设置了任何限制？你能指出圣经在哪里 ——两个问题：你是否仍然是基督身体中一个完全发挥功用的肢体？ If you died tonight, would you still be a fully functioning member of the body of Christ according to 1 Corinthians 12? And if you would be, could you show us where the Bible places any restriction on your participation in the body of Christ after death with regard to prayers, intercessions, supplications, and thanksgivings that are proper to the body of Christ and were commanded in 1 Timothy 2:1-4? Can you show us where the Bible—two questions: would you still be a fully functioning member of the body of Christ?
圣经在哪里限制了你做提摩太前书2:1-4中所描述的事的能力 ？答：是的，我不仅会是一个完全发挥功用的肢体，我还会是基督 身体中一个更完全发挥功用的肢体，因为我会在父的同在中。 And where does the Bible place a restriction on your ability to do the things described in 1 Timothy 2:1-4? A: Yes, not only would I be a fully functioning member, I’d be a more fully functioning member of the body of Christ because I’d be in the presence of the Father.
B：第二个问题有循环论证的问题，因为它假设了已经被 驳斥的事，即一个人所处的位置与他所从事的活动无关。 B: The second question begs the issue because it assumes what has already been refuted, and that is that the position that one is in has nothing to do with the activities that one takes.
例如，你刚才用了提摩太前书2章，正如我已经指出的，那里定义了 为那些在位的人祷告等事情，这对一个在天上的人来说是不相关的。 For example, you just used 1 Timothy 2, and as I already pointed out, that defines prayers for those in leadership and things like that, which would not be relevant to a person who is in heaven.
因此，经文本身就划分了一个区别。 Therefore, there is a distinction that is drawn in the text itself.
同样的区别也出现在哥林多前书12章，就是你提到的另一段经 文，保罗在那里谈到赐给人在地方教会中发挥功用的不同恩赐。 That same distinction is found in 1 Corinthians 12, the other passage you brought up, where Paul is talking about the different gifts given to people in their functioning in the local body.
如果我今晚离世，我将不再作为凤凰城改革宗浸信会的一位长老发挥功用。 I will no longer function as one of the elders of the Phoenix Reformed Baptist Church if I were to meet my end this evening.
实际上，我一直在注意听他说。 I was paying attention to him, actually.
我想我们应该问，如果你熬不过今晚，为什么要把他放在我这边？ I think we should ask, If you don't make it through the evening, why did you put him on my side?
他是自愿的。 He volunteered.
谢谢，当我们接近12分钟时我会提醒你。 Thank you, and I will warn you when we get close to 12 minutes.
在那再次发生之前你可以转身。 You can turn around before that happens again.
我会的。 I will.
我会站在那边。 I’ll stand back there.
马德里先生，如果一个犹太人在他的帐篷里被发现在一个祖先的雕像前鞠躬， 当被带到摩西面前时，他声称他没有给予这雕像或祖先latria，而只是 给予较低层次的dulia，你的立场是这种区分会是一个有效的辩解吗？ Mr. Madrid, is it your position that the distinction between latria and dulia would have been a valid excuse had a Jewish man been found in his tent bowing before a statue of an ancestor, and when brought before Moses, had claimed that he was not giving the statue or the ancestor latria, but only the lesser concept of dulia?
不，这不是我的立场。 No, it would not be my position.
好的，如果这个概念在摩西时代的人身上不是有效的 ，那么什么改变使它在今天成为一个有效的概念？ Okay, if that is not a valid concept in the case of someone before Moses, what has changed that it would be a valid concept today?
嗯，很多事情都改变了，吉姆。 Well, a lot has changed, Jim.
看，在摩西的时代，如果我们回到出埃及记，我 们看到以色列人在敬拜偶像方面有特殊的问题。 See, at the time of Moses, if we go back to the book of Exodus, we see that the Israelites had a particular problem with worshiping idols.
因此，出埃及记20章中神的启示不仅仅是禁止敬拜 雕刻的偶像，而是禁止敬拜任何取代神自己的假神。 And so the revelation from God in Exodus 20 was a prohibition not simply of worshiping graven images, but worshiping anything that would be a false god in place of God Himself.
所以在那个特定的背景下，这会特别成问题。 So in that particular context, it would be especially problematic.
考虑到金牛犊事件刚刚发生以及所有对拜偶像的危险和倾向，吉姆，我 们必须认识到，从那时起，不仅神越来越完全地启示自己，而且教会时 代的教会也思考和理解了这些经文的含义，以及道成肉身的全部意义。 Given what had just happened with the golden calf and all of the dangers and inclinations toward idolatry, what we have to recognize, Jim, is that since that time, not only has God revealed Himself more and more fully, but the Church in the Church age has contemplated and understood the meaning of these passages and also the meaning of what the incarnation is all about.
所以虽然这对摩西时代的人来说是有问题的，正如东方教 父圣约翰·达马森所说，基督是那不能看见之神的像。 So that although it would be problematic for somebody in the time of Moses, as the great Eastern Father St. John Damascene said, Christ is the icon, the image of the invisible God.
祂通过道成肉身向我们显明，现在描绘天上的实在不再像摩西时代那样危险。 He showed us through the incarnation that the ability now to depict heavenly realities is no longer something that would be dangerous in the way that it would have been at the time of Moses.
那么，你的立场是我们今天没有犹太人很久以前有的那些拜偶像的问题和倾向吗？ So is it your position that we don't have the same problems and propensities of idolatry today that the Jews had so long ago?
不，恰恰相反，吉姆。 No, quite the contrary, Jim.
我要说我们有着所有相同的倾向。 I would say that we have all the same propensities.
让我问在场的公教徒：敬拜雕像吗？ Let me ask any Catholics in the audience here: worshiping statues?
不，我不敬拜雕像。 No, I don't worship statues.
我不认识任何敬拜雕像的公教徒。 I don't know any Catholic who worships statues.
但我确实认识有许多不同假神的人。 But I do know people who have a lot of different false gods.
也许今晚在这个房间里的人中，有人有许多不同的假神。 There are people, perhaps in the room tonight, who have a lot of different false gods.
也许你们中有些人，你们的假神是互联网色情；也 许假神是纳斯达克，每天在大屏幕上受到敬拜。 Perhaps some of you, your false god is internet pornography; maybe the false god is NASDAQ, worshipped every day on the big board.
有人把各种各样的东西——酒精、新车。 There are people who place all sorts of things—alcohol, new cars.
我们有很多不同的方式可以敬拜假神。 There are so many different ways in which we can worship a false god.
所以今天，是的，吉姆，我们有着他们那时所有相同的倾向和诱惑。 So today, yes, Jim, we have all the same inclinations and all the same temptations that they did at that time.
恰好在出埃及记20章写作的时候，以色列人所面对的特殊倾向是与雕刻的偶像有关。 It just so happens that at the time that Exodus 20 was written, the particular propensity that the Israelites had dealt with graven images.
这不再是我所认识的任何人或我所听说的任何现代人的倾向。 That is no longer a propensity for anyone that I know or anyone I’ve ever heard of living in the modern era.
那么，神在十诫中的命令是由上下文决定我们今天是否要应用它们或如何应用它们吗？ So the commands of God in the Ten Sayings and the Ten Commandments are contextually determined as to whether we are to be applying them today or how we’re to apply them today?
不完全是由上下文决定，而是我们必须理解一段经文在任何时候对任何人应用的方式。 Not exactly contextually conditioned, but rather we have to understand the way in which a passage applies to any person at any given time.
我还没说完。 I’m not done.
所以在出埃及记20章的情况下，那里的应用特别是关于跪拜和事奉偶像、假神。 So in the case of Exodus 20, the application there is specifically with regard to bowing down to and serving idols, false gods.
你引用的出埃及记20章的总体上下文是处理任何形式的偶像崇拜。 The general context of the passage, Exodus 20, that you cited deals with idolatry in any form.
祂只是给出了一个特定的形式作为以色列人必须避免的例子。 He just gave it a particular form as an example of what the Israelites had to avoid.
帕特，你知道在默示的圣经中有任何基督徒在祷告中呼求天使名字的记载吗？ Pat, do you know of any references to Christians invoking the names of angels in prayer in the inspired Scriptures?
在默示的圣经中，我一时想不起有任何这样的记载。 In the inspired Scriptures, none comes to mind right offhand.
天使是基督身体的肢体吗？ Are angels members of the body of Christ?
天使是基督身体的肢体，就他们是天上共融的一部分这个意义而言，但他们 不是像你我这样的基督身体的肢体，因为我们是受洗归入基督的身体的。 Angels are members of the body of Christ in the sense that they are part of the communion in heaven, but they are not members of the body of Christ in the way in which you and I are, because we have been baptized into the body of Christ.
所以我们在新约中所说的基督的奥秘身体，并不延伸到天使。 So the mystical body of Christ, in the sense that we’re speaking of in the New Testament, does not extend to angels.
那么，你今晚关于圣徒相通和基督徒之间相通的任何论 点，怎么能与寻求呼求天使长米迦勒的祷告相关呢？ So how can any of the arguments you’ve used this evening concerning the communion of saints and communion between Christians be relevant to a prayer where you seek the invocation of Michael the Archangel?
是的，这是相关的，因为天使是神的服役的仆役。 Yes, well, it’s relevant in the sense that the angels are the ministering servants of God.
正如我们承认天上的圣徒有能力为我们代求，我们也承认 神的服役者，就是天使，也有能力，也有要执行的职责。 Just as we recognize the power and the ability of the saints in heaven to intercede on our behalf, we also recognize that God’s ministering servants, the angels, also have power and they also have duties to perform.
例如，在路加福音第2章，当天使加百列来到蒙福的童贞马利 亚那里，神本可以直接做那件事，但祂却差遣一位天使去做。 For example, in Luke chapter 2, when the angel Gabriel comes to the Blessed Virgin Mary, God could have done that act directly, but yet He sent an angel to do it.
同样，马利亚作为神的女人，本可以直接回应神，但她 对道成肉身的应允却是通过天使的职分传回给神的。 Similarly, Mary, who was a woman of God, could have responded to God directly, but yet her yes to the incarnation was carried back to God through the offices of an angel.
所以天使很重要，他们确实履行着守护、保护、代祷和引导地上人类的职分。 So the angels are very important, and they do fulfill offices of guarding, protecting, praying for, and guiding human beings here on earth.
第二次尼西亚会议在第一次尼西亚会议近半个千年后召开——我这里有所有那些教规。 The Second Nicene Council, convened nearly half a millennium after the First Nicene—I’ve got all those canons right here.
好的，现在如果我可以问你，那时或现在的人怎么能知道他们 是否在拒绝罗马公教会的一个未成文传统，以避免被咒诅？ Okay, now if I could ask you, how could anyone in that day or ours know if they are rejecting an unwritten tradition of the Roman Church so as to avoid anathema?
他们只需要听从教会告诉他们什么是传统。 They would simply have to listen to the Church that told them what the traditions were.
而你在贬低公教徒同意教会权威的想法。 And you were disparaging the idea of Catholics assenting to the authority of the Church.
嗯，我为同意公教会的权威而自豪。 Well, I am proud to assent to the authority of the Catholic Church.
原因是公教会是基督建立的教会，在路加福音10:16这样的经文中， 祂说，听从你们的就是听从我，我承认教会有权以基督自己的权威说话。 The reason is the Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established, and in passages such as Luke 10:16, where He said, He who listens to you listens to Me, I recognize that the Church has the authority to speak with Christ's own authority.
所以当教会说我们必须做这个，不能做那个时，我相信这是基督通过教会在说话。 So when the Church says we must do this, we must not do that, then I believe that this is Christ speaking through the Church.
你可以称之为唯教会论，但我认为这是耶稣基督通过祂的教会行使权威。 You may call it sola ecclesia, but I recognize that this is Jesus Christ acting authoritatively through His Church.
所以如果在当时——让我问你——让我们看看另一件事。 So if at the time—let me ask you—let's look at another thing.
既然我们在这里谈论传统，和未成文的传统，在第二次尼西亚会议 的时候，马利亚的身体升天，比如说，是一个未成文的传统吗？ Since we’re talking about tradition here, and an unwritten tradition, was at the time of the Second Nicene Council the bodily assumption of Mary, for example, an unwritten tradition?
而在当时，不相信这个未成文的传统是否等同于拒绝它？ And would not believing this unwritten tradition amount to a rejection of it at that time?
你可能对'未成文传统'这个词有困难。 You may be having difficulty with the phrase unwritten tradition.
未成文传统并不意味着它是没有被写下来的东西。 Unwritten tradition doesn’t mean that it’s not something that is not written down.
例如，教父们写到了我们会归于传统的各种事情。 For example, the Church Fathers write about various things that we would assign to tradition.
相反，传统在其本意上是指教会对那一次交付圣徒的信仰宝库的活生生的理解。 Rather, tradition in its proper sense means the lived understanding of the Church of the deposit of faith that had been once for all handed on to the saints.
像马利亚升天的教义这样的教义，我想这就是你提出的，如果教会说，正如它 确实说了，这是值得相信的，这是信仰宝库的一部分，而一个基督徒否认它并 说，我不会相信那个，那么这个人就是，如你所说，拒绝同意这些传统之一。 A doctrine such as the doctrine of Mary’s assumption, which I think is the one that you’re raising, if the Church said, as it did, that this is worthy of belief and this is something that is part of the deposit of faith, and a Christian were to deny that and say, I will not believe in that, then that person would be, as you say, refusing to assent to one of those traditions.
那么它在当时是信仰宝库的一部分吗？ So was it a part of the deposit of faith at that time?
它一直都是信仰宝库的一部分。 It’s always been a part of the deposit of faith.
当时有人相信它吗？ Did anyone at that time believe it?
在第二次尼西亚会议的时候，肯定有。 At the time of the Second Nicene Council, definitely.
谁？ Who?
这不是关于马利亚升天的辩论；否则，我会带来大量笔记并给你一些例子。 This is not a debate on the assumption of Mary; otherwise, I would have brought copious notes and given you some examples.
我要说的重点是，大公会议咒诅任何拒绝未成文传统的人。 The point that I’m making is that the Council anathematizes anyone who would reject unwritten traditions.
问题是当你试图找出那些未成文传统是什么时， 你在教会历史中找不到一个始终如一的答案。 The problem is when you try to find out what those unwritten traditions are, you cannot find a constant answer through Church history.
相反，我要对比的是，当圣经咒诅某人时，是基于对他们所拒绝的事物的非常清楚的认识。 Instead, I’m contrasting that with the fact that when the Bible anathematizes someone, it does so on the basis of a very clear knowledge of what it is that they’re rejecting.
是的，我同意这点，但我刚写了一本关于传统的书。 Yes, I agree with that, but I just wrote a book on tradition.
我很乐意给你寄一本；它叫《为什么那在传统中？》 I’d be happy to send you a copy; it’s called Why Is That in Tradition?
我正是讨论了这个问题。 And I addressed that very issue.
顺便说一句，吉姆，是一本签名本。 A signed copy, by the way, Jim.
在这本书中，我指出很多非公教徒对传统的实际含义有误解这个事实。 In the book, I point out the fact that many non-Catholics have a misunderstanding of what tradition actually is.
它不是这个人说这个那个人说那个以及现在对我们来说什么看起来好的这样一团模糊的云。 It’s not this amorphous cloud of this guy over here said this and that fellow said that and what seems good to us now.
相反，它是教会对原始信仰宝库的理解的一种始终如一和持续不 断的传递，包括从我们在圣经中发现的明确证据中得出的推论。 Rather, it is a consistent and persistent handing down of what the Church understands the original deposit of faith to be, including inferences drawn from the explicit evidence that we find in Scripture.
所以比如说，当耶稣在约翰福音第6章说——如果我们可以用这 个作为例子——我的肉是真实的食物，我的血是真实的饮料，问 题不在于这些话是否在圣经里，而在于这些话是什么意思？ So for example, when Jesus says in John chapter 6—if we can use this as an example—My flesh is real food, my blood is real drink, the question is not so much are those words in the Bible, but rather what do those words mean?
所以关于马利亚的问题或圣徒，圣徒相通，我刚才列出了一个相当 具体和简明的七点解释，说明为什么公教会认为圣徒可以被敬奉。 And so with regard to Marian issues or the saints, the communion of saints, I just laid out a rather specific and concise seven-point explanation of why the Catholic Church recognizes the saints being able to be venerated.
这是教会一直以来的活生生的理解。 It is the lived understanding that the Church has always had.
所以如果有时间的话，我可以为你提供大量早期世纪的教父们的例子，就是你自己在书 中用来捍卫三位一体的那些教父，表明他们是权威和主要的解经家，正如你所说的。 So I could furnish for you, if there were time, copious examples from the early centuries of the very Church Fathers that you yourself turn to in your book to defend the Trinity, showing them as being authoritative and the main exegetes, as you said.
我可以从所有这些教父和更多教父那里向你表明，他们确实持有公教的观点，而不 是你今晚在这里代表的观点——我们不应该敬奉，也不应该寻求天上圣徒的代求。 I can show you from all these Fathers and many more that they did indeed hold the Catholic view, not the view that you are representing here tonight—that we should not venerate and that we should not seek the intercession of the saints in heaven.
埃尔维拉会议，甚至在第一次尼西亚大公会议之前召开，说， 规定教堂里不可有图画，以免所敬拜和崇拜的被画在墙上。 The Council of Elvira, meeting even before the First Council of Nicaea, said, It is ordained that pictures are not to be in churches so that that which is worshipped and adored shall not be painted on walls.
鉴于这个声明比第二次尼西亚大公会议的声明早了将 近500年，为什么这不是基督教传统的一部分？ Given that this statement is nearly 500 years earlier than the statements of the Second Nicene Council, why is this not a part of Christian tradition?
实际上，埃尔维拉会议是基督教传统的一部分，而且你提到的那个特定的教规经常被引用。 Actually, the Council of Elvira is part of Christian tradition, and it’s invoked with some frequency, the particular canon that you’re referring to.
让我们记住一点，埃尔维拉会议是在西班牙举行的，而当时的西班牙主要是异教徒。 Let’s remember for one thing that the Council of Elvira took place in Spain, and at that time, Spain was predominantly pagan.
研究这个问题的学者们指出，我们可以用不同的方式来理解那个特定的教规。 The scholars who have studied this issue have pointed out that there are different ways in which we can understand that particular canon.
我们没有来自会议本身的任何辅助材料能更准确地告诉我们他们 指的是什么，但是那个地区的异教徒崇拜偶像；他们崇拜假神。 We don’t have any ancillary material from the council itself that tells us with more exactitude what they were referring to, but the pagans in the area worshipped images; they worshipped false gods.
所以这个教规很可能是为了阻止基督徒模仿异教徒。 So it’s very possible that this canon was there to discourage Christians from aping the pagans.
这是一个牧养性的举措，旨在防止他们走上异教徒的道路。 It was a pastoral move designed to prevent them from following down the path of the pagans.
还有另一种看法，就是异教徒自己最终会进行错误的崇拜，并认为基督徒在做同样的事。 There’s another way to look at it, too, and that is that it was that the pagans themselves would wind up giving false worship and thinking that Christians were doing the same thing.
所以为了不使异教徒绊倒，这是一个牧养性的举措，旨在确保这个问题不会出现。 So as a way not to cause the pagans to be scandalized, it was a pastoral move designed to make sure that this problem didn’t arise.
但有趣的是，如果我可以加上这最后一点，这是早期教会中唯一的例子，你会 发现这样性质的地区会议说基督徒不应该有圣像或不应该在教堂墙上画它们。 But interestingly, if I could just put this final touch, this is the only example in the early Church where you will find a regional synod of this nature saying that Christians were not to have icons or not to paint them on the walls in the church.
我觉得这很有趣。 I find that very interesting.
但这不就是一个说明，表明根本没有你之前所诉诸的普遍教会传统吗？ But is that not then an illustration that there is no universal Church tradition to which you appealed before in light of that?
完全不是，因为如果你看看在不同大公会议之前和之后在各处存在的不同地区会议，比如 希波和迦太基，是的，例如，你会发现在后来未被大公会议接受的事情上有不同的意见。 Not at all, because if you look at the different regional councils that existed here and there before and after the different ecumenical councils, like Hippo and Carthage, yes, for example, you’ll find variations in opinion on things that were not later accepted by the ecumenical councils.
在埃尔维拉会议上所说的——你要害怕了。 What was stated at the Council of Elvira—you’re about to get scared.
好的，我就到此为止。 Okay, I’ll end it there.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我没想到你一晚上能承受两次。 I didn’t think you could handle that twice in one night.
谢谢提醒。 Thank you for the warning.
现在我们开始反驳发言，从马德里先生开始。 We now have the rebuttal speeches beginning with Mr. Madrid.
这些发言每个八分钟。 These speeches are eight minutes each.
我现在开始。 I'm starting now.
好的，首先我要感谢大家的耐心。 Well, first I want to thank all of you for your patience.
我认为这是一个很有趣的晚上，我想把我们带回到一开始提出的几 点，因为也许我们有点偏离了一些不一定与今晚主题相关的事情。 This has been, I think, a very interesting evening, and I want to bring us back to the points that were made at the very beginning because perhaps we've gotten a little astray on some things that are not necessarily germane to the subject tonight.
我为你们列出了公教会的模式，解释为什么我们敬奉，为 什么我们请求圣徒代求，为什么我们敬奉他们的圣像。 I laid out for you the Catholic model for why we venerate, why we ask the intercession of the saints, and why we venerate images of them.
我想在圣像的问题上稍作停顿，因为我认为很多时候人们，特别是在这个房 间里的人，也许对公教徒敬礼圣像有误解——无论是十字苦像，我这里有一 个——我认为带一个圣像来让我们看看今晚我们在谈论什么是明智的。 I'd like to pause for just a minute on the question of images because I think a lot of times people, especially people in this room, perhaps have the misconception that when Catholics reverence an icon—whether it's a crucifix, I have one here—I thought it would be wise to bring an icon so that we could see what we're talking about here tonight.
这是我们被钉十字架的主的苦像。 This is a crucifix of our crucified Lord.
在哥林多前书第1章，圣保罗说他不愿意知道别的，只知道钉十字架的基督。 In 1 Corinthians 1, St. Paul says he wants to know nothing except for Christ crucified.
他不愿意十字架失去它的能力；他要传讲钉十字架的基督。 He doesn't want the cross to be emptied of its power; he wants to preach Christ crucified.
在教会早期，在罗马的迫害结束后，在普通的十字架上固定基督圣体，我们 主耶稣基督的身体变得很普遍——不是作为偶像，不是作为一块木头或大理 石来敬拜，而是提醒我们十字架的能力和耶稣在十字架上为我们所做的。 In the early years of the Church, after the persecution of the Romans ended, it became very common for the plain crosses to have affixed to them the corpus, the body of our Lord Jesus Christ—not to be an idol, not to be worshipped as a piece of wood or a piece of marble, but to remind us of the power of the cross and what Jesus did for us on the cross.
现在，我认为可以说这个圣像至少是值得尊重的。 Now, I think it’s safe to say that this icon here is something that, at the very least, is deserving of respect.
你们这些新教徒中有多少人愿意看到这个圣像在房间里被随意扔来扔去？ How many of you Protestants would care to see this icon just thrown around the room?
你们这些新教徒中有多少人想看到耶稣的圣像受到某种不敬？ How many of you Protestants would want to see an image of Jesus shown some sort of disrespect?
我再进一步说：你们这些新教徒中谁愿意上前来踩踏这个？ I’ll go a little further: which of you Protestants would be willing to come forward and stomp on this?
如果它与我们肉眼看不见的天上的实际没有任何联 系，那么你们就应该毫不犹豫地上前来踩踏它。 If it doesn’t have some connection with the heavenly realities that we can’t see with our eyes, then you should have no trouble coming up and stomping on it.
但事实是，你们心里知道——我知道你们心里知道——这个主耶稣基督的描 绘不是让我们敬拜的，而是提醒我们祂在十字架上为我们所做的事的能力。 But the fact is, you know in your hearts—and I know you know in your hearts—that this depiction of the Lord Jesus Christ is not something for us to worship but to remind us of the power of what He did for us on the cross.
当你们看到公教徒敬礼这样的圣像或圣母马利亚的圣 像时，我们不是在敬拜这些圣像；那才是偶像崇拜。 And when you see Catholics reverencing an icon such as this or an icon of the Virgin Mary, we are not worshiping those icons; that is idolatry.
你们在家里，无论是公教徒还是新教徒，都有家人的照片，所爱之人的照片。 You also, in your homes, Catholics and Protestants alike, have pictures of your family members, pictures of people you love.
我现在在这里，远离家乡；我住在俄亥俄州哥伦布市郊外。 Here I am, far away from my home; I live outside of Columbus, Ohio.
我离家600英里，我随身带着我妻子和孩子们的照片。 I’m 600 miles from my home, and I have a picture of my wife and my children with me.
现在，如果你们碰巧在休息时看到我站在走廊里，因为我想 念我的妻子和家人，你们可能会看到我亲吻家人的照片。 Now, if you were to happen to see me standing out in the hallway during an intermission, and because I miss my wife and family, you might see me kiss the picture of my family.
你们会惊恐地退缩吗... Would you recoil in horror at...
并难以置信地说，天哪，他爱上了柯达相纸！ and disbelief and say, My gosh, he loves Kodak paper!
看看这个人；多可悲啊！ Look at the guy; how sad!
不，你们根本不会这么说。 No, you wouldn’t say that at all.
你们会本能地知道，从某种意义上说，我对这张柯达相纸表现 出的爱和尊重与纸张或墨水无关；它是指向照片所代表的人。 You would instinctively know that the love, the honor, in a sense, that I’m showing to this piece of Kodak paper has nothing to do with the paper or the ink; it is directed to the people that the picture represents.
这对十字苦像是真实的，对雕像是真实的，对任何圣像都是真实的。 This is true of crucifixes, this is true of statues, this is true of any icon.
而今晚我们辩论的关键，我的朋友们，是意向这个词。 And the key to our debate tonight, my friends, is the word intention.
如果你打算俯伏在任何东西面前并敬拜它来代替神，你就是在犯偶像崇拜的罪。 If you intend to fall down and bow before anything and worship it in place of God, you are committing the sin of idolatry.
如果你在一个伟大的人面前俯伏，就像我们在历代志上29章读到的 ，当人们俯伏向神和君王行礼致敬时，我们被告知人们并不是在敬拜 君王，而是在俯伏敬拜神的同时，向君王表示敬意，这是好事。 If you fall down before a great person, as we read about in 1 Chronicles 29, when the people bowed down and did obeisance and reverence to God and the king, we are told the people were not worshiping the king, but they did a good thing in bowing down and worshiping God, and in the same act, giving homage to the king.
这是宗教性的敬意。 It was religious homage.
当公教徒这样做时，我的朋友们，我们不是在敬拜偶像； 我们是在敬奉那些确实在安息中的天上真实的人的记忆。 When Catholics do this, my friends, we are not worshiping idols; we are venerating the memory of real people in heaven who are indeed at rest.
但正如我们先前指出的，耶稣告诉我们他们被派管理许多事。 But as we pointed out earlier, Jesus tells us that they are put in charge of many things.
这许多事中的一件就是为我们祷告。 One of those many things is to pray for us.
我想如果你能问天上的圣徒，如果我们有办法问他 们的话，我想你会发现对他们来说，那不是工作。 And I think if you were to ask the saints in heaven, if there were a way that we could ask them, I think what you’d find is that for them, that is not work.
他们爱我们远超过他们在地上时所能爱我们的程度，因 为正如希伯来书12章说的，他们在义中得以完全。 They love us far more than they could have loved us when they were here on earth because, as Hebrews 12 says, they are perfected in righteousness.
雅各书5章说义人的祷告是大有能力的。 James 5 says that the prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
现在，你可以为我祷告，我可以为你祷告，无论我们有多少义——我们现在不是在 谈称义——在我们在神面前有这样的地位的程度上，我们的祷告可以是有能力的。 Now, you may pray for me, and I may pray for you, and to whatever extent we have a certain righteousness—and we’re not talking about justification right now—to the extent that we have that standing before God, our prayers can be powerful.
但那些在天上的人在义中得以完全，他们的祷告，雅各书5 章说，是有能力的，因为那句话并不仅限于在地上的人。 But those in heaven are perfected in righteousness, and their prayers, James 5 says, are powerful because that statement is not restricted only to those here on earth.
任何基督徒的祷告都是神所喜悦的，都是有能力的。 The prayers of any Christian are pleasing to God, and they are powerful.
现在我们先前谈到这个问题... Now we talked earlier about this issue of...
偶像崇拜，我想提出几个其他要点。 Idolatry, and I want to bring out a few other points.
这个意向一词非常重要，因为打算敬拜独一真神以外任何事物的公教徒应该受到责备，如 果吉姆责备一个敬拜雕像的公教徒，我会赞扬他，因为吉姆是对的，那个公教徒是错的。 This word intention is very important because Catholics who intend to worship anything other than the one true God should be rebuked, and I would praise Jim if he rebuked a Catholic for worshiping a statue because Jim would be right, and the Catholic would be wrong.
但同样地，我们有一些连新教徒自己也会认为值得尊重的圣像。 But similarly, we have icons that even Protestants themselves would recognize as worthy of respect.
很讽刺的是我拿起这本书是因为我想读它，但现在我意识到它一直在我的公文包里。 It’s an irony that actually I picked this book up because I wanted to read it, but now I realize it was sitting in my briefcase.
它与今晚的讨论完全相关。 It has a perfect bearing on tonight's discussion.
这本书叫《她说是》。 The book is She Said Yes.
你们有人读过这本书吗？ Have any of you read this book?
这是关于一位名叫卡西·伯纳尔的年轻女士的故事。 It’s about a young lady named Cassie Bernall.
她是科伦拜恩高中的一名学生，她在表明自己相信神的时候被枪杀。 She was one of the high school students in Columbine, and she was shot in the act of saying that she believed in God.
她是一位殉道者。 She was a martyr.
所以这里有这些禽兽站在那里射杀孩子们，他们走到这个年轻女孩面前，说，你相信神吗？ So here we have these animals standing there shooting kids, and they come up to this young girl, and they say, Do you believe in God?
而她说，是的，我相信神。 And she says, Yes, I believe in God.
砰！ Bam!
现在她的脸出现在这本书的封面上。 Now her face is depicted on the cover of this book.
你们谁会对这个年轻女孩的图像表示不敬？ Which of you would show this image of this young girl disrespect?
这不是更有人性吗？ And isn’t it not more human?
我们对一位殉道者因她所获得的胜利而表示尊重，这不是更自然吗？ Isn’t it not more natural for us to show a martyr the respect for the victory that she has won?
或是圣母马利亚的圣像或圣斯德望的圣像？ Or an image of the Virgin Mary or the image of St. Stephen?
圣奥古斯丁在我们今晚没有时间读到的段落中告诉我们，不仅在他的时代敬奉和请求圣斯 德望代求的做法很普遍，而且他还告诉我们，圣斯德望永远不会想要取代神而受到敬拜。 St. Augustine tells us in the passages that we didn’t have time to read tonight about how not only was the practice of venerating and asking for the intercession of St. Stephen very common in his time, but he also tells us that St. Stephen would never want to be worshiped in place of God.
他永远不会想要接受那种只适合给予神的尊崇和敬拜。 He would never want to be shown the kind of honor and worship that is proper to God alone.
这是我们必须记住的：公教会，无论吉姆喜欢与否，都作出了区分。 This is what we have to remember: that the Catholic Church, whether Jim likes it or not, makes a distinction.
在公教会中，我们认识到对神的朋友——殉道者、圣徒——表示应有的敬意是恰当的。 In the Catholic Church, we recognize that there is reverence due to the friends of God—the martyrs, the saints—that is proper.
这是合乎圣经的。 That is biblical.
另一方面是偶像崇拜，而公教会一直禁止偶像崇拜。 There is idolatry on the other side, and the Catholic Church has always forbidden idolatry.
所以无论吉姆喜欢与否，这里是有区别的。 So whether Jim likes it or not, there is a distinction.
这些术语的理解是有发展的，我可以向你保证，无论是我还是我认识 的任何公教徒——这个房间里的任何公教徒——都不会敬拜雕像。 There is a development in the understanding of these terms, and I can assure you that neither I nor any Catholic I know—any Catholic in this room—worships statues.
谢谢。 Thank you.
当然，我喜欢或不喜欢什么在今晚都无关紧要；我不重要。 Of course, what I like or don’t like is irrelevant this evening; I don’t matter.
重要的是神的道说什么，以及祂对敬拜祂的事所说的话。 It’s what God’s Word says and what He has said about His worship that does matter.
罗马作出了区分。 Rome makes the distinction.
关键是这种区分与神在祂的道中所说的相违背。 The whole point is that the distinction is contrary to what God has said in His Word.
这个圣像展示给我们看，没有人会想上来打碎它。 This icon was shown to us, and no one would want to come up here and smash it.
我们被告知了，对吧？ We were told, all right?
我们被告知这是因为你们心里知道它代表什么。 We were told it’s because you know in your hearts what it represents.
对我来说，这个表现最令人反感的不是木头，不一定是它的外表。 What is most offensive to me about this representation is not the wood, not necessarily what it looks like.
我要非常诚实地告诉你们：你们知道什么让我对此感到反感吗？ I’ll be perfectly honest with you: you know what offends me about that?
这是因为在罗马公教会中，那不是一个完成的行为；而是一个重复的行为。 It’s because in Roman Catholicism, that’s not a finished act; it is a repeated act.
所以我知道我们已经辩论过一次性的重现和所有其他那些事情。 So I know we’ve debated the one-time re-presentation and all the rest of that stuff.
如果它不能使你完全，它就不是基督的十字架— —这就是让我反感的地方，我心里知道这一点。 If it doesn’t perfect you, it’s not the cross of Christ—that’s what offends me, and I know that in my heart.
如果你是罗马公教徒，你需要明白这就是为什么它让我反感。 And if you’re a Roman Catholic, you need to understand that’s why it offends me.
你可能不同意，但我可以给你一个非常符合圣经的基础和理由。 You may not agree, but I can give you a very biblical basis and reason for it.
我们被告知今晚的关键是意向。 We were told that the key tonight is intention.
我希望你们非常仔细地听，特别是在结束陈词中。 I want you to listen very carefully, especially in the closing statements.
我想提出一些关于这方面的经文。 I’d like to raise some scriptural passages about that.
但是敬拜和敬奉的语境决定了它是否是偶像崇拜。 But the context of latria and dulia is what determines whether it’s idolatry or not.
当一个士兵向百夫长鞠躬时，那不是在宗教语境中。 When a soldier bows before a centurion, that would not be in a religious context.
各位，如果我从钱包里拿出我家人的照片——今晚我不需要这样做因 为他们大多数人七年来第一次在这里，我很高兴他们在这里——如果 我从钱包里拿出这些照片给你们看或亲吻它们，这不是宗教语境。 Folks, if I took out of my wallet pictures of my family—I don’t need to do that tonight because most of them are here for the first time in seven years, and I’m glad to have them here—if I took those pictures out of my wallet and I showed them to you or I kissed them, it’s not a religious context.
当你在教堂那个安静的地方，跪着点燃蜡烛，祈 求恩典和功德时，没有比这更具有宗教性的了。 When you are in the church in that quiet place, lighting those candles on your knees, praying for grace and merit, it doesn’t get any more religious than that.
这就是决定这个词含义的语境。 And that is the context that determines the meaning of the word.
当我们建造李将军或格兰特将军或其他类似人物 的雕像时，每个人都认识到这是不同的语境。 When we build a statue of Lee or Grant or someone else like that, everyone recognizes that there’s a different context.
但整个问题就在于那是一个宗教语境，这正是我向你们 展示的这些词的用法，而且没有人努力去反驳这一点。 But the whole problem is that’s a religious context right there, and that is the very use of the words that I have shown you, and no effort has been made to refute this.
我一段接一段地向你们展示：敬拜和服侍，敬拜和服侍——敬拜和敬奉，敬拜和敬奉。 I showed you from passage after passage after passage: worship and serve, worship and serve—latria and dulia, latria and dulia.
每一个都是宗教性的，这就是今晚的问题所在。 Every single one is religious, and that is the issue this evening.
我们在七点中被告知教会是基督的身体。 We were told in the seven points that the Church is Christ's body.
第二点是基督只有一个身体。 It is second that Christ has only one body.
他确实说死亡不会在基督身体的意义上分裂我们。 He does say that death does not divide us in the sense of splitting us under the body of Christ.
这是真的，但它确实把我们置于不同的地方，也改变了我们与他人的关系。 That’s true, but it does put us in a different place, and it changes our relationship with others.
我本想在交叉询问中谈到这一点，但你们会向炼狱中的人祷告吗？ I wanted to get to this with cross-examination, but do you pray to people in purgatory?
为什么不？ Why not?
他们不是在基督的身体里吗？ Aren’t they in the body of Christ?
如果他们在炼狱里，这意味着他们是基督身体的一部分，不是吗？ If they’re in purgatory, that means they are part of the body of Christ, aren’t they?
你看，他们在某个不同的地方，你们对待他们不是和对待天上的圣徒不同吗？ You see, they’re in some different place, and don’t you treat them differently than saints in heaven?
嗯，当然你们是这样做的，所以你们承认这里有区别。 Well, of course you do, so you recognize there’s a distinction.
所以当你说，好吧，死亡不会分开我们；关系依然存在，但这是一种不同类型的关系。 So when you say, Well, death does not divide us; the relationship remains, but it’s of a different type.
这就是为什么他们被描述为睡了。 That’s why they’re described as being asleep.
这并不意味着他们没有意识，但对我们来说，确实存在一个区别。 That doesn’t mean they’re unconscious, but to us, there is a distinction that’s made.
这就是为什么圣经承认，是的，那些死了的人——摩西对神是活着的，但对我们是死了的。 That’s why the Bible recognizes that, yes, those who’ve died—Moses was alive to God, but he’s dead to us.
别试图用摩西的信用卡；已经发生了改变。 Don’t try to use Moses’ credit card; a change has taken place.
因此，其余的论证——基督徒在爱德中合一，我们效法圣徒— —好吧，从圣经来看，每一个相信耶稣基督的人都是圣徒。 Therefore, the rest of the argumentation—Christians are united in charity, we imitate the saints—well, biblically, every single believer in Jesus Christ is a saint.
这整个超额功德、功德、功德宝库和所有其他那些东西的想法都是完全不符合圣经的概念。 This whole idea that there’s supererogation and merit and the treasury of merit and all the rest of that stuff are completely and utterly unbiblical concepts.
因此，说我们能够祈求圣徒代求并不能从前面的论述中得出。 Therefore, to say we are able to invoke the intercession of the saints does not follow from what came before.
正如我们在交叉询问中看到的，我们完全没有看到使徒们提倡这种活动。 As we saw in the cross-examination, we do not see that kind of activity being promoted by the apostles at all.
所以向我们提出的七点并没有给我们一个基础来忽视这个事实：当用 圣经来检验时，整个论证所基于的敬拜-敬奉的区分是站不住脚的。 So the seven points that have been presented to us do not give us a foundation for ignoring the fact that the latria-dulia distinction, upon which this entire argument is based, collapses when examined on the basis of Scripture.
我可以指出一点吗？ May I point something out?
据我所知，在第二次尼西亚会议中没有人曾经讨论过 希伯来语词的含义，它们的翻译，或圣经说了什么。 To my knowledge, there is no one in the Second Nicene Council who ever addressed the meaning of Hebrew terms, the translation of them, or what the Bible says.
事实上，正如我之前提到的，就我所知，现存的 记录甚至没有提到任何圣经反驳论证的陈述。 In fact, as I mentioned before, the extant records, as far as I can tell, do not even mention the presentation of any biblical counter-argumentation.
所以从根本上说，各位，今晚我们得到了什么？ So fundamentally, folks, what do we have this evening?
好吧，我想我们已经看到了。 Well, I think we’ve already seen it.
为什么敬奉圣徒、天使和圣像与圣经一致？ Why is the veneration of saints, angels, and images consistent with the Bible?
因为罗马这么说。 Because Rome says so.
如果罗马这么说，好吧，就是这样。 And if Rome says so, well, that’s it.
有人断言，马太福音18章意味着罗马是无误的。 The assertion has been made, Well, Matthew 18 means Rome’s infallible.
不，不是这样。马太福音18章中没有任何关于罗马的内 容。「听你们的就是听我」与罗马教会的主教完全无关。 No, it doesn’t. There’s nothing about Rome in Matthew 18. He who hears you hears Me has nothing to do with the bishop of the Church in Rome at all.
这是一个存在各种历史问题的假设。 That’s an assumption that has all sorts of historical problems with it.
如果你想看看关于这个问题的各种辩论，我们与帕 克瓦神父就教宗制度进行过辩论；去看看录像带。 And if you’d like to see the various debates that have been done on that, we did the papacy against Father Mitchell Pacwa; go look at the videotapes.
1993年我在丹佛与杰里·马蒂蒂克辩论了七个 小时。去看看录像带；有各种理由质疑这一切。 I debated Jerry Matitik seven hours up in Denver in 1993. Go look at the videotapes; there are all sorts of reasons to question all of that.
但这就是给出的基本理由：教会这么说。 But that’s the fundamental reason it’s been given: the Church says so.
我们假设第二次尼西亚会议时期存在的教会与第 一次尼西亚会议时期及之前的教会是一样的。 We assume that the Church that existed in the time of the Second Nicene Council is the same as the Church at the time of the First Nicene Council and before that.
这个假设是现代罗马公教就是古代教会的信仰。 The assumption is that modern Roman Catholicism is the faith of the ancient Church.
问题是在尼西亚会议中没有任何人在教义上相信你们今天所相信的许 多问题，从炼狱和赎罪券到马利亚教义和教宗制度以及其他一切。 The problem is there wasn’t anyone in the Nicene Council that believed what you believe today dogmatically about many issues, from purgatory and indulgences to the Marian dogmas and the papacy and everything else.
那么为什么我们要接受这是同一个教会的假设？ So why should we grant the assumption that this is the same Church?
从根本上说，这最终是一个来自权威的论证：我们是对的，相信我们。 This is an argument fundamentally, in the final analysis, from authority: We’re right; believe us.
耶稣教导我们，每当有人来对我们说「我们是对的」时，祂说，去看神说了什么，去查证。 Jesus taught us that whenever someone comes to us and says, We’re right, He says, Go to what God has said and find out.
我们正在效法基督的榜样这样做。 We are following Christ’s example to do so.
谢谢。 Thank you.
你们今晚表现得很好。 You are being excellent tonight.
结束陈词将首先由马德里先生开始，然后是怀特先生。 Closing statements will begin first with Mr. Madrid and then by Mr. White.
每人各十分钟。 Those will be 10 minutes each.
之后，我们会有一个简短的休息——不是让你们起来走动，而是为了调整我们的麦克风。 Following that, we’ll have just a brief break—not for you to get up and move around, but to get our microphones set.
我想再次提醒你们，如果你们有问题，请写下来。 I want to remind you again, if you have questions, please write them down.
提问时间不是让你们表达自己的观点或讲道或教导；而是用来提问的。 A question time is not for you to give your own viewpoints or preach or teach; it’s to ask a question.
所以把它写下来，这样我们才能最好地利用时间。 So write it down so we might make the best use of time.
我们的十分钟结束陈词现在由马德里先生开始。 Our ten-minute closing speech is beginning now with Mr. Madrid.
好吧，这是一个漫长的夜晚；不过我认为这是一个很好的夜晚，因为它完成了几件事。 Well, it’s been a long night; it’s been a good night, though, I think, because it’s done a couple of things.
首先，它给了我一个机会来为公教会陈述论点，尽管这是一个简略的陈述。 First of all, it’s given me a chance to present the case for the Catholic Church, even though it was an abbreviated case.
我认识到时间的限制对我们不利。 I recognize that the constraints of time work against us.
吉姆可能还有很多想说的；我当然也有很多想说的，还有很多证据要提出。 Jim probably has a lot more that he’d like to say; I certainly have a lot more I’d like to say, a lot more evidence to bring out.
但事实是，我认为我们至少能够展示出在这个主 题上分歧的大致范围，我想稍后回顾一下这些。 But the fact is, I think we’ve been able to at least show the general parameters of what divides us on this subject, and I’d like to recap those in just a moment.
但首先，我想指出我们今晚所面对的：我们有一个问题，更确切地说，我们有一个争议。 But first, I want to point out what we have here tonight: we have a problem, more pointedly, we have a controversy.
我认为争议实际上源于这个问题：谁真正能够确定早期几个世纪教会的信仰是什么。 I think the controversy really stems from the question of who is really able to determine what the Church believed in the early centuries.
现在，我要说的是，不仅议会是能够做到这一点的机制——我们在使 徒行传第15章读到第一次议会就是这样做的，当时议会能够审议外 邦信徒无需遵守所有割礼律法和洁食律法就可以进入教会的问题。 Now, I would argue that not only were the councils those mechanisms that were able to do that—we read about the first council that did that in Acts chapter 15, when the council was able to deliberate on the subject of Gentile believers being permitted into the Church without undergoing all the circumcision laws and kosher food laws.
我们在新约本身就看到教会通过议会作出这些决定，我的弟 兄姐妹们，这些决定对接受它们的基督徒都具有约束力。 We see in the New Testament itself the Church operating in council to make these determinations, and my brothers and sisters, those determinations were binding on the Christians who received them.
所以我想在这里指出的是，早期教会有权解释圣经数据，并将其应用到生活方 式中，包括礼仪，包括祷告，包括教会表达她对圣徒重要性的信仰的方式。 So the thing I’d like to point out here is that the early Church had the authority to be able to interpret the biblical data and apply it to the way in which it lived out its life, including the liturgies, including the prayers, including the way in which the Church expressed her belief in the importance of the saints.
现在，我知道吉姆说这不是真的，今晚不应该相信或接受这一点，但我今晚 站在这里要说，当耶稣在路加福音10:16说「听从你们的就是听从我， 弃绝你们的就是弃绝我」时，祂是在赋予某人以祂的名义说话的权柄。 Now, I know that Jim says that that is not true, that is not to be believed or accepted tonight, but I am standing here tonight to say that when Jesus said in Luke 10:16, He who listens to you listens to Me; he who rejects you rejects Me, He was imparting authority to somebody to speak in His name.
现在，我以前多次听到这种说法，说早期教会不是公教会。 Now, I’ve heard this claim so many times before that the early Church was not the Catholic Church.
我向任何人，包括吉姆，提出挑战，去真正检视早期基督徒的信仰和教导。 I defy anybody, including Jim, to really examine what the early Christians believed and taught.
只要读读他们自己的话，你就会发现，与他刚才所说的恰恰相反——尼西亚会议 的基督徒并非不相信公教会所教导的这些不同的事情——他们确实相信这些。 Just read their words for themselves, and you will find that far from what he asserted a moment ago—that the Nicene Council Christians didn’t believe all these different things that the Catholic Church teaches—they did believe them.
他们写过这些内容，不仅在那时，而且在787年第二次尼西 亚会议之前的几个世纪里都有。这些都有充分的文献记载。 They wrote about them, and not only then, but for centuries and centuries prior to the Second Council of Nicaea in the year 787. This is amply documented.
这就是我们刚才听到的。 This is what we just heard a moment ago.
这是一个经不起历史考验的说法，我不要求你们相信我的话。 This is a claim that will not stand up to the scrutiny of history, and I don’t ask you to take my word for it.
我请求你们任何人——我相信你们都是公正的人——我请你们自己去检验。 I ask any of you—all of you, I believe, are fair-minded people—I ask you to examine it for yourselves.
去当地的巴诺书店，开始阅读早期教会的著作，你们就会明白我在说什么。 Go down to the local Barnes & Noble and start reading the writings of the early Church, and you’ll see what I’m talking about.
还有许多其他问题我们想要尝试涵盖，但让我们至少处理一下稍早提出 的唯一中保的论点：提摩太前书2:5。我相信耶稣是唯一的中保。 There are many, many other issues that we want to try to cover, but let’s at least deal with the issue of the one mediator argument that was raised a little earlier: 1 Timothy 2:5. I believe that Jesus is the one mediator.
祂是唯一能够跨越我们在疏离中停滞的地方与神 在完全圣洁中的地方之间罪的鸿沟的那一位。 He is the one and the only one who can bridge the gap of sin between where we are stranded in alienation and where God is in all holiness.
只有基督能做到这一点。 Only Christ can do that.
为什么？ Why?
因为只有基督是神。 Because only Christ is God.
马利亚不是神；圣斯德望不是神；天使长圣弥额尔不是神。 Mary is not God; St. Stephen is not God; St. Michael the Archangel is not God.
他们都没有能力成为那位唯一的中保。 None of them have the ability to be the one mediator.
但请注意，耶稣以从属的方式与祂的朋友们分享祂所具有的不同独特角色。 But notice that Jesus shares the different unique roles that He has in subordinate ways with His friends.
例如，耶稣是万王之王，不是吗？我相信祂是君王。 For example, Jesus is the King of kings, isn’t He? He’s the King, I believe.
然而耶稣说使徒和所有基督徒都要在天上作王，戴着冠冕，坐在宝座上。 And yet Jesus says that the apostles and all Christians are going to reign as kings in heaven, wearing crowns and sitting on thrones.
耶稣是创造主；希伯来书告诉我们这一点。 Jesus is the Creator; the book of Hebrews tells us that.
但祂与我们，与人类的父母分享那生育的角色。 But He shares that procreative role with us, with human mothers and fathers.
我们在神最终创造的方式中有从属的份，祂通过男人和女人来创造。 We have a subordinate share in the way in which God ultimately creates; He creates through men and women.
耶稣是最高的审判者，不是吗？你相信这一点吗？ Jesus is the supreme judge, isn’t He? Do you believe that?
我相信。 I do.
但耶稣说基督徒要在天上施行审判；我们要审判天使。 But Jesus says that Christians are going to judge in heaven; we will judge the angels.
信徒在基督的事工中有从属的份，从不减损耶稣所做的，从不减损祂角色的独特性。 There is a subordinate share that believers have in the ministry of Christ, never taking away from what Jesus has done, never taking away the uniqueness of His role.
但我们一次又一次地看到耶稣与祂的跟随者分享这些角色。 But we see over and over and over again that Jesus shares these roles with His followers.
这就是为什么，我的朋友们，在提摩太前书2章1至4节中，圣 保罗可以说——不是吉姆几分钟前暗示的那样，为地上的人祷告 ；只在你在地上时祷告；为君王祷告；为逼迫基督徒的人祷告。 That’s why, my friends, in 1 Timothy 2, verses 1 through 4, St. Paul can say—not what Jim was implying a few minutes ago, Pray for people on earth; pray only when you’re on earth; pray for kings; pray for the people who are persecuting Christians.
这不是这段经文所说的。 That’s not what the passage says.
这段经文说，为所有人祷告。 The passage says, Pray for everyone.
所有人！ Everyone!
这个祷告的命令不仅仅限于我们这些在地上的人。 And this command to pray is not restricted just to those of us here on earth.
上下文中没有任何内容暗示这是圣经中的一个固定命令，即基督徒被呼召去祷 告和帮助，正如圣保罗所说，要互相担当重担，这样就完全了基督的律法。 Nothing in the context would imply that this is a standing command in Scripture that Christians are called upon to pray for and assist, as St. Paul says, to bear one another's burdens, and by so doing, we will fulfill the law of Christ.
你我在地上都有重担，不是吗？ You and I have burdens here on earth, don't we?
我们与罪争战；我们在地上与各种逆境争战，我们依靠彼此的祷告，不是吗？ We struggle with sin; we struggle with all kinds of adversity here on earth, and we rely on one another's prayers, don't we?
在这场辩论之前的日子和周里，我请求很多人为我祷告。 I asked a whole lot of people to pray for me tonight in the days and weeks leading up to this debate.
为什么？ Why?
因为我需要祷告。 Because I need prayer.
这是一个具有挑战性的场合。 This is a challenging setting.
你需要祷告。 You need prayer.
而使我们分离的事情——真的很可悲，这是一个悲剧——使我们分离的事情是，每个星期天 ，全世界数百万基督徒诵读使徒信经和尼西亚信经，其中包括这些话：我们信圣徒相通。 And the thing that separates us—so sadly, this is a tragedy, really—the thing that separates us is that every Sunday, millions of Christians around the world recite the words of the Apostles' Creed and the Nicene Creed, and those words include the words, We believe in the communion of saints.
现在，作为一个公教徒，我相信这种相通超越时间和空间。 Now, as a Catholic, I believe that that communion transcends time and space.
正如我在开场白中通过那七点向你们指出的，圣经中没有任何内容表明你我在耶稣 基督里并通过祂所拥有的合一会以某种方式被切断或受限制或以其他方式减弱。 And as I pointed out to you in my opening remarks through those seven points, there is nothing in Scripture that would indicate that the unity that you and I have in and through Jesus Christ is somehow severed or somehow restricted or in some other way diminished.
如果你我有能力——我要补充说，甚至有来自圣经的劝诫和勉励——在地上为彼此祷 告并互相帮助，那么当我们在天上，在义中得以完全时，我们就有更多理由这样做。 If you and I have the capability—even, I would add, the admonition, the exhortation from Holy Scripture—to pray for one another and to assist one another here on earth, we have all the more reason to do that when we’re in heaven, perfected in righteousness.
我不得不说，吉姆没有给我们提供任何来自圣经或 早期教会的例子，请记住这是今晚辩论的主题。 And I’m afraid to say that Jim has not offered us a single example from Scripture or the early Church, and remember that was the thesis for tonight's debate.
即请求圣徒代祷、敬奉他们等这些行为， That this act of asking for the intercession of the saints, venerating them, etc.,
与圣经和基督教传统不符。 is not consistent with Scripture and Christian tradition.
事实上是符合的，记住，我列出的七点显示这就像锁链上的环节。 It is, and the seven points that I laid out, remember, showed it was like links in a chain.
只有一个身体——不是天上一个地上一个。 There’s one body—not one in heaven and one on earth.
身体的所有肢体都在基督里合而为一；死亡不能 使我们分离，等等。这就是今晚的真正问题。 All members of the body are united in Christ; death does not separate us, etc. That’s the real issue here tonight.
如果按照圣经的字面意思来理解，那么所有基督徒，包括在天上的，都是基督 这个有机身体的一部分，并且都为提升和改善其他人的属灵福祉作出贡献。 If the Bible is to be understood according to its plain reading, then all Christians, including those in heaven, are part of that organic body of Christ and contribute to the lifting up and the improvement of the spiritual well-being of everyone else.
记住圣保罗在哥林多前书12章所说的。这真是一段有力的经文，当我 听到我的朋友吉姆在这里说，这只是指本地的会众时，我感到痛心。 Remember what St. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 12. This is really a forceful passage, and it pains me when I hear my friend Jim here saying, Well, that just refers to the local assembly.
不，它指的是整个教会。 No, it refers to the whole Church.
圣保罗说——我再读一遍——第12节：就如身子是一个，却 有许多肢体，而且肢体虽多，仍是一个身子，基督也是这样。 St. Paul said—I’ll read it again—verse 12: As a body is one, though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also is Christ.
如今身子不是一个肢体，乃是许多肢体。 Now the body is not a single part but many.
若脚说：「我不是手，所以不属于身子」，它不因此就不属于身子。 If a foot should say, 'Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,' it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
若耳说：「我不是眼，所以不属于身子」，它不因此就不属于身子。 Or if an ear should say, 'Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,' it does not for this reason belong any less to the body.
若全身是眼，从哪里听声呢？ If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be?
若全身是耳，从哪里闻味呢？ If the whole body were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
但如今神随自己的意思把肢体俱各安排在身上了。 But as it is, God has placed the parts, each one of them, in the body as He intended.
若都是一个肢体，身子在哪里呢？ If they were all one part, where would the body be?
但如今肢体是多的，身子却是一个。 But as it is, there are many parts, yet one body.
眼不能对手说：「我用不着你」，头也不能对脚说：「我用不着你」。 The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I do not need you,' nor again can the head say to the feet, 'I do not need you.'
今晚，我们在这里见证的是基督身体的一个肢体 对天上基督身体的所有肢体说：我用不着你们。 Tonight, what we have witnessed here is one of the members of the body of Christ saying to all those members of the body of Christ in heaven, I do not need you.
我今晚在这里要说，我们确实需要我们在天上的弟兄姐妹。 I am here to say tonight that we do need our brothers and sisters in heaven.
我们确实需要他们的祷告，他们在那里为我们祷告。 We do need their prayers, and they are there praying for us.
谢谢你们的耐心。 Thank you for your patience.
晚安，愿神祝福你们。 Good night, and God bless you.
当然，说这是我所说的话，很明显是一个令人遗憾的曲解。 Of course, it is sadly a very obvious misrepresentation that that is what I have said.
我指出哥林多前书第12章是关于在基督身体的事工中运用圣灵的恩赐。 I pointed out that 1 Corinthians chapter 12 is about the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit within service in the ministry of the body of Christ.
而且显然，正如我指出的——而且没有人反驳—— 当一个人进入神的同在时，这种情况就会改变。 And obviously, as I have pointed out—and no refutation has been offered—that changes when a person enters into the presence of God.
当提摩太前书第2章谈到为所有人祷告时，把它理解为天上的圣徒纯粹是强解经文。 When the passage in 1 Timothy 2 speaks of praying for everyone, it is pure eisegesis to mean that for saints in heaven.
因为，正如我指出的，如果我为某人祷告使他们能够与罪争战，如果这适用于一 个在天上的人，这就表明当一个人在基督里进入安息与平安时所发生的改变。 Because, as I’ve pointed out, if I pray for someone that they would strive against sin, if they’re relevant to a person who’s in heaven, that shows the change that takes place when a person enters into rest and peace in Christ.
我被要求向马德里先生指出任何否认他所说的话的人。 I have been defied to show Mr. Madrid anyone who denied the thing he said.
我想挑战——而不是反抗——马德里先生，请他找出在尼西亚会议上—— 我说的是325年——有一位议会教父相信马德里先生今天在教义上所相 信的关于教宗制度、炼狱、赎罪券、祭司制度和所有马利亚教义的内容。 I would like to challenge—rather than defy—Mr. Madrid to find me one council father at the Council of Nicaea—and I was talking about 325—who believed what Mr. Madrid dogmatically believes today about the papacy, purgatory, indulgences, the priesthood, and all the Marian dogmas.
一个也没有，罗马公教的历史学家也承认这一点。 Not a one did, and Roman Catholic historians admit it.
我们被告知今晚的问题是关于早期教会的信仰。 We were told the issue tonight is about what the early Church believed.
事实并非如此。 It’s not.
论题是关于基督教传统。 The thesis was about Christian tradition.
正如我指出的，这是一个非常有选择性的事情。 As I’ve pointed out, that is a very selective thing.
罗马只是说，这是传统，那不是。我向你们展示了议会；我向你们 展示了声明，而罗马公教的资料承认这些是教父文献的一部分。 Rome just says, That’s tradition; that isn’t. I showed you councils; I showed you statements, and Roman Catholic sources admit that these were a part of the patristic sources.
我们让彼得在使徒行传10:25-26中来解释如何 ？当哥尼流向他下拜时，他只是在表示尊敬，对吧？ How about we allow Peter to interpret things in Acts 10:25-26? When Cornelius bowed before him, he was just showing him honor, right?
我是说，彼得是值得尊敬的，不是吗？ I mean, Peter is worthy of honor, isn’t he?
他是一位使徒，曾在变像山上。 He was on the Mount of Transfiguration, an apostle.
当哥尼流向他下拜时，彼得做了什么？ When Cornelius bows before him, what does Peter do?
不要这样；我只是个人。 Don’t do that; I’m just a man.
当在启示录第19章中，天使向约翰显示了这些奇妙的事，那位天使值 得尊敬，所以约翰向天使下拜，天使说，不要这样做；要单单敬拜神。 When in Revelation chapter 19 the angel has shown John all these tremendous things, and that angel deserves honor, and so John bows down before the angel, the angel says, Don’t do that; worship God alone.
让我们让那些早期教父为我们解释，因为我们知道他 们相信什么，这些都已经在圣经中为我们提供了。 Let’s let those early Church Fathers interpret for us because we know what they believed, and it’s been provided for us in Scripture.
真正的敬拜在本质上完全由神所说的使祂喜悦的事来决定。 True worship is determined in its nature solely by what God says is pleasing to Him.
人无权决定什么是正确和适当的敬拜。 Man has no place determining what is right and proper worship.
只有神能够并且已经启示了什么是适当和真实的敬拜。 Only God can and has revealed what is proper and true worship.
神如此严肃地看待我们承认祂是我们的创造主并且只有祂的这件 事，以至于祂把拜偶像视为在祂眼中最可憎和最严重的罪之一。 So seriously does God take the matter of our acknowledging Him as our Creator and Him alone that He identifies idolatry as one of the most heinous and grievous sins in His sight.
两段非常非常不受欢迎的经文——不受欢迎是因为它们与今天以人为中 心的宗教不相符——庄严地见证了向神献上纯正和适当敬拜的重要性。 Two very, very unpopular passages—unpopular in the sense that they do not fit with today’s man-centered religions—solemnly testify to the importance of offering pure and proper worship to God.
这两段经文都说明了顺服神所启示的关于如何敬拜祂的方式的重要性。 Both these passages speak to the importance of obeying what God has revealed concerning how He is to be worshipped.
首先，在利未记第10章中，亚伦的儿子拿答和亚比户，虽然已经完 全得到了关于正确敬拜方式的指示，却擅自超越了神所规定的范围。 First, in Leviticus chapter 10, Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, having been fully instructed in the proper form of worship, took liberties going beyond what God had ordained.
我们读到第1至3节：亚伦的儿子拿答、亚比户各拿自己的香炉，盛 上火，加上香，在耶和华面前献上凡火，是耶和华没有吩咐他们的。 We read in verses 1 through 3: Now Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took their respective firepans, and after putting fire in them, placed incense on it and offered strange fire before the Lord, which He had not commanded them.
就有火从耶和华面前出来，把他们烧灭，他们就死在耶和华面前。 And fire came out from the presence of the Lord and consumed them, and they died before the Lord.
于是摩西对亚伦说：「这就是耶和华所说：『我在亲 近我的人中要显为圣，在众民面前要得荣耀。』」 Then Moses said to Aaron, 'It is what the Lord spoke, saying, By those who come near Me, I will be treated as holy, and before all the people, I will be honored.'
亚伦就默默不言。 So Aaron, therefore, kept silent.
现代人可能会为拿答和亚比户找出许多借口。 Modern man might make many excuses for Nadab and Abihu.
人可能会说他们是新手，他们只是在敬拜中表达自由。 Man might say that they were new to the job, that they were simply expressing freedom in worship.
这些事也许会让后现代的美国人印象深刻，但显然并没有让全能者印象深刻。 Such things may impress postmodern Americans, but it obviously did not impress the Almighty.
凡亲近神的人都当以祂为圣。 By those who come near to God, He will be treated as holy.
违背神所启示的关于如何敬拜祂的旨意就是亵渎祂。 To violate God’s own revealed will concerning how He is to be worshipped is to treat Him as unholy.
这里没有中立的立场。 There is no neutrality here.
违背神的命令，就是参与偶像崇拜。 Violate God’s commands, and you engage in idolatry.
惩罚可能不会像拿答和亚比户那样来得那么快，但同样是确定的。 The punishment may not come as quickly as it did for Nadab and Abihu, but it will be just as certain.
总之，拿答和亚比户超越了神的命令。 Anyway, Nadab and Abihu went beyond what God commanded.
正如我们今晚所看到的，罗马也是如此。 As we’ve seen this evening, Rome has as well.
第二段经文更加震撼。 The second passage is even more striking.
当大卫在神因非利士人据有约柜而击打他们之后，将约柜运回 耶路撒冷时，发生了一件事，有力地说明了我们今晚的观点。 When David is taking the Ark back to Jerusalem after God strikes the Philistines for keeping possession of it, an incident takes place that illustrates our point this evening with great force.
在撒母耳记下第6章，从第3节开始，我们读到：他们将神的约柜从山冈上亚比 拿达的家里抬出来，放在新车上。亚比拿达的两个儿子乌撒和亚希约赶这新车。 In 2 Samuel 6, beginning at verse 3, we read, They placed the Ark of God on a new cart that they might bring it from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill, and Uzzah and Ahio, the sons of Abinadab, were leading the new cart.
他们将神的约柜从山冈上亚比拿达的家里抬出来，亚希约在约柜前行走。 So they brought it with the Ark of God from the house of Abinadab, which was on the hill, and Ahio was walking ahead of the Ark.
大卫和以色列全家在耶和华面前，用松木制造的 各样乐器和琴、瑟、鼓、钹、锣，作乐跳舞。 Meanwhile, David and all the house of Israel were celebrating before the Lord with all kinds of instruments made of fir wood and with lyres, harps, tambourines, castanets, and cymbals.
到了拿艮的禾场，因为牛失前蹄，乌撒就伸手扶住神的约柜。 When they came to the threshing floor of Nacon, Uzzah reached out toward the Ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen nearly upset it.
耶和华向乌撒发怒，因他伸手扶约柜神就在那里击打他，他就死在神的约柜旁。 And the anger of the Lord burned against Uzzah, and God struck him down there for his irreverence, and he died there by the Ark of God.
大卫因耶和华击打乌撒，就恼怒，那地方叫做毗列斯乌撒，直到今日。 David became angry because of the Lord's outburst against Uzzah, and that place is called Perez Uzzah to this day.
你看，神曾告诉以色列要用杠抬约柜，而不是用车运。 You see, God had told Israel to carry the Ark on poles, not on a cart.
大卫和百姓违背了神所启示的旨意。 David and the people were in violation of God’s revealed will.
哦，他们当然玩得很开心；大卫和百姓在跳舞，至 少从人的角度来看，他们有着美好的敬拜体验。 Oh, surely they were having a grand time; David and the people were dancing and having a wonderful worship experience, at least from the human standpoint.
但人的观点是无关紧要的。 But the human standpoint is irrelevant.
记住，我们被告知今晚辩论的关键是意图——而不是从神的角度来看。 Remember, we were told the key of this debate tonight is intention—not from God’s perspective.
现代人想要为乌撒所做的开脱。 Modern men want to excuse Uzzah for what he did.
他不是只是想帮忙吗？ Wasn’t he just trying to help?
他的意图不是想做好事吗？ Wasn’t his intention to do something good?
神怎么能因他所做的而追究他的责任呢？ How could God hold him accountable for what he did?
不是别人告诉他走在那个位置的吗？ Didn’t someone else tell him to walk where he was walking?
这不是真的应该怪大卫或祭司吗？ Wasn’t it really David’s fault or the priest’s fault?
也许这就是乌撒所受的教导；也许他是在遵循长老们的传统或犹太无误的训导权。 Maybe this was how Uzzah had been taught; maybe he was following a tradition of the elders or the infallible Jewish magisterium.
这都不重要；他触摸了代表神与以色列民同在的圣洁临在 的约柜，尽管这破坏了大卫的庆典，神还是击杀了乌撒。 It didn’t matter; he touched the Ark of God, which represented His holy presence with the people of Israel, and despite the fact that it ruined David’s party, God struck Uzzah dead.
在宗教背景下，敬拜某人和服侍某人在圣经中没有区别。 There is no biblical difference between worshiping someone and serving someone in the religious context.
「至上敬拜」和「尊敬」这两个词在圣经中都回溯到同一个概念。 Latria and dulia are both terms that go back to a single concept in the Bible.
正如我们所看到的，敬拜既包括俯伏，也包括服侍；你不能把它们分开。 As we have seen, to worship is both to bow down and to serve; you cannot separate them.
在我们的宗教态度和姿态的背景下，「至上敬拜」和「尊敬」在用法上或逻辑含 义上都没有圣经上的区别，而这正是祷告和敬奉圣徒、天使或圣像所涉及的。 There is no biblical distinction between latria and dulia, either in usage or in logical meaning, in the context of our religious attitude and posture, which is surely what prayer and veneration of saints, angels, or images involves.
「至上敬拜」和「尊敬」的区分没有实质和意义。 The latria-dulia distinction is without substance or meaning.
即使辩解「至上敬拜」和「尊敬」的区别，圣经也不认可向神以外的任 何对象祷告，因为祷告是敬拜的行为，承认被祷告对象的权柄和能力。 Pleading the latria-dulia distinction, the Bible knows nothing of offering prayer to anyone but God, for prayer is an act of worship, acknowledging the authority and power of the one being prayed to.
你也许可以诚实地说你不知道关于「至上敬拜」、 「尊敬」、「跪拜」、「服侍」等这些圣经事实。 You may well be able to honestly say that you were ignorant of the biblical facts concerning latria, dulia, proskuneo, avad—whatever.
神对你有怜悯，让你今晚得知真理。 God has been merciful to you, allowing you to know the truth this evening.
第二次尼西亚会议的与会者很可能也同样不知道这些圣经事实。 It is quite possible that the men who met at the Second Nicene Council were likewise ignorant of the biblical facts.
他们的错误可能导致了你所持守的传统，这传统在这个重要问题上使神的道失去了效力。 Their error may have led to the tradition that you have held, which has nullified the Word of God on this vital issue.
他们要在神面前承担他们的责任，但你也要承担你的责任。 They will bear their burden before God, but you will bear yours as well.
耶稣警告我们不要跟随那些使圣经失效的所谓神圣传统。 Jesus warned us about following allegedly divine traditions that nullify the Scriptures.
我的朋友们，说「但我以为教会是无误的」并不能成为借口。 It would be no excuse, my friends, to say, But I thought the Church was infallible.
当犹太人把他们认为来自摩西的长老传统强加给耶 稣时，耶稣并不接受这种想法，你也不应该接受。 Jesus did not accept that idea when the Jews pressed the traditions of the elders upon Him, which they thought came from Moses, nor should you.
你现在要怎么做？ What will you do now?
你会承认神有绝对的权利来决定什么是祂所喜悦的敬拜，什么不是吗？ Will you acknowledge God’s absolute right to determine what is and what is not pleasing worship before Him?
我的朋友们，我坚信只有神的灵才能使我们愿意并渴望正确地敬拜祂。 My friends, I believe very firmly that only God’s Spirit can make us willing and desirous of worshiping Him aright.
我祈求祂今晚赐给在场所有人这份引导顺服的恩典。 I pray He will grant to all here this evening that gift of grace that leads to just such obedience.
非常感谢。 Thank you very much.
我需要我的麦克风架。 I need my microphone holder.
詹姆斯，准备好了吗？ James, already?
我们这里有个最接近保安的人，所以如果你不守规矩，詹姆斯会处理你。 We’ve gotten the nearest we have to a bouncer here, so if you get out of line, James will deal with you.
詹姆斯，我们要这样做，你拿着麦克风。 What we’re going to do, James, you’ve got the microphone.
我要请那些有问题的人在詹姆斯后面排队。 I’m going to ask that those who have questions line up in back of James.
你们的问题要控制在30秒内。 Your questions are to be 30 seconds.
再说一遍，如果你们还有问题，把它们写下来。 Again, if you still have them, write them down.
当你问完问题后，请坐下，这样下一个人可以排队。 When you are done asking your question, please sit down so the next person can get in line.
请将你的问题直接向一位或两位讲者提出。 Please direct your question to one or both speakers.
如果你有问题要问马德里先生，通过我向他提问，或者要问怀特先生，也通过我向他提问。 If you have a question for Mr. Madrid, address it to him through me, or for Mr. White, address it to him through me.
如果你是向两位提问，我们会先请马德里先生回答，然后是怀特先生。 If you’re addressing both, we’ll begin with Mr. Madrid and then be followed by Mr. White.
如果你只向一个人提问，我们会给另一位讲者回应的机会。 If you are addressing only one person, we will give the other speaker an opportunity to respond.
我请马德里先生和怀特先生都简明扼要，这样在我们 有的45分钟里，我们可以回答尽可能多的问题。 I’m asking that both Mr. Madrid and Mr. White be concise so that in the 45 minutes that we have, we can do as many questions as possible.
詹姆斯，准备好了吗？ James, you ready?
请第一位提问者。 The first questioner, please.
麦克风没有开。 The microphone is not on.
一、二——好了，我们能听到你了。 One, two—there we go; we hear you.
马德里先生，假设你们对马利亚或某位圣徒的形象在实际画像上是错误的。 Mr. Madrid, suppose your version of Mary or one of the saints is wrong in terms of its actual picture.
会有什么后果？ What consequence would there be?
比如说，假设耶稣在身体外貌上是黑人或西班牙裔。 For example, let’s say Jesus is Black or Hispanic in His physical appearance.
假设在你们的神学中，某位圣徒也是如此。 Let’s say one of the saints is likewise, in your theology.
敬奉错误的圣像会有什么后果？ What would be the consequence of venerating the wrong image?
好！ Good!
完全没有后果，因为敬奉不是针对图像本身。 No consequence whatsoever, because the veneration is not for the image itself.
敬奉是针对图像所代表的人。 The veneration goes to the person that the image represents.
当我们到了天堂，我们就会知道耶稣和各位圣徒的真实样貌。 And when we get to heaven, we’ll find out what Jesus looked like and what a given saint looked like.
我们有他们的图像表现形式是为了我们的益处，用来提醒我们记念这些人。 The fact that we have representations of them is for our benefit to remind us of those people.
比如说，如果我们把圣路加画成黑发，而事实上他是金发，这完全没有问题。 But there is no problem whatsoever if we depict St. Luke with dark hair and it turns out he had blonde hair, for example.
怀特先生，你要评论吗？ Mr. White, do you care to make a comment?
简单说一下，我对这整个问题的担忧在于，所有信徒都 是圣徒，因此去担心他们长什么样本身就是有问题的。 Just very briefly, my whole concern about this whole issue is the fact that all believers are saints, and hence the idea of even worrying about what they look like is problematic.
每个在基督耶稣里的信徒都有基督完全的义，因此死后就直接进入基督的同在中。 Every believer in Jesus Christ has the righteousness of Christ, which is perfect, and therefore goes directly into the presence of Christ when he dies.
这种区分是不存在的。 This distinction doesn’t exist.
下一个问题——如果可以的话，请两位都回答。 Our next question—an answer from both, if you could.
我的问题是：马利亚如何能同时听到数以百万计的祷告？ My question is: how can Mary hear the prayers of multitudes, millions, at the same time?
这不是只属于神的属性吗？ Is this not an attribute that only belongs to God?
马德里先生？ Mr. Madrid?
这不是只属于神的属性。 It is not an attribute that belongs only to God.
我想你指的是全能和无所不在这两个特性。 I think you’re referring to the two characteristics of omnipotence and omnipresence.
全能意味着神无所不能，没有祂做不到的事。 Omnipotence means that God is all-powerful; there’s nothing He cannot do.
无所不在意味着祂无处不在。 Omnipresence means that He’s everywhere.
我们必须记住，因为神是无限的，这些属性本身也是无限的。 And we have to remember that because God is infinite, those attributes themselves are infinite.
所以这意味着神能做的事没有尽头；也就是说，神所知道的事没有限制。 So that means there’s no end to what God can do; there’s no end, or there’s no limit, let’s say, to what God knows.
现在，比如说，以人们向马利亚祷告为例，在任何时刻可能都有数 以百万计的人用各种不同的语言——英语、西班牙语等向马利亚祷 告。不管在任何时刻有多少这样的祷告，它们仍然是有限的。 Now, in the case of, let’s say, people praying to Mary as an example, you may have untold millions of people at any given moment in the world praying to Mary in all sorts of different languages—English, Spanish, etc. No matter how many of those prayers ascend at any given time, they’re still finite.
这不需要无所不在、无所不知或全能。 There is no need for omnipresence or omniscience or omnipotence.
我提到了无所不知——就是知道一切。 I mentioned omniscience—that's knowing everything.
因此，因为这些祷告的数量是有限的，这根本不会侵犯那些只属于神的特性。 And so, because these are finite numbers of prayers, there is simply no question of that intruding upon those characteristics that are property of God alone.
问题不在那一端，问题在于我们，因为我们无法理解这是如何发生的。 The problem is not at that end of the spectrum; the problem is with us because we can't understand how that happens.
实际上，仅仅因为我们不理解它如何发生就争辩说 它不可能发生，我认为这是一种徒劳的论证方式。 And really, for us to argue that it can't happen just because we don't understand how it can happen would be, I think, a futile line of argumentation.
例如，耶稣自己在路加福音中告诉我们，天上有大喜乐。 For example, Jesus Himself tells us in the Gospel of Luke that there is great rejoicing in heaven.
祂在这里作了区分：祂说天上有大喜乐，然后祂 说在天使面前，为一个罪人悔改也是大有喜乐。 He makes a distinction here: there is great rejoicing in heaven, He says, and then He says there is great rejoicing before the angels over the repentance of even a single sinner.
现在，我们如何把同样的例子应用在这里——假 设在任何时刻，都有数百万人在悔改他们的罪。 Now, how it is that we could take the same example and apply it here—let's say that at any given moment, there are millions of people repenting of their sins.
所以耶稣自己说，这些个人的悔改都被天上的天使和圣徒所知道。 So Jesus Himself says that those individual repentances are known by those in heaven—angels and saints.
我们不知道这是如何做到的，但我们知道确实如此；不 知怎的，通过神让他们知道，他们知晓个人的悔改。 We don't know how that’s done, but we do know that it is done; that somehow, through God letting them know, they are aware of individual repentances.
怀特先生，刚才所说的有几个问题。 Mr. White, there are a number of problems with what was just said.
我认为这是对路加福音经文的误用。 I think it’s a misuse of the Lucan passage.
那段经文的重点不是要讨论天上有多少次欢喜，而是 表明神愿意看到罪人而不是义人归向祂这个事实。 The point there is not to attempt to provide some discussion of how many times rejoicing takes place in heaven, but the fact that it is God’s desire to see sinful people come to Him rather than righteous people.
这才是耶稣在那里的整个上下文要点。 That’s the whole point of Jesus' context there.
如果我们按上下文来读，读出其他任何意思都是误用这段经文。 If we read it in context, reading anything else into it is to misuse the passage.
但这里的关键问题很清楚。 But the key issue here is very clear.
我猜我们被要求相信，一旦你得荣耀，就能同时听懂5万人用20种不同语言对你说话。 I guess we’re being asked to believe that once you become glorified, 50,000 people can talk to you at once in 20 different languages, and you’ll understand all of them.
而这就是圣徒们在天上所做的事。 And that this is what saints are doing in heaven.
我多次提出这个问题却从未得到答案：如果是神的圣灵有能力洞察我们的心思意 念并将我们的祷告带到圣父面前这一神圣属性，那么谁在为圣徒们做这件事？ I’ve raised the issue a number of times and never gotten an answer to it: if it is the Holy Spirit of God who has the divine attribute of being able to read our hearts and minds and bring our prayers before the Father, then who’s doing this for the saints?
能够理解个人的心思意念是神的属性。 It is a divine attribute to be able to understand the heart and mind of an individual.
所以如果一位圣徒能理解我的心思意念，那就是神的属性。 And so if a saint can understand my heart and mind, that is a divine attribute.
这就是这里的主要问题之一。 And that’s one of the main problems here.
说「好吧，我们就是不知道」，在完全缺乏任何圣经证据的 情况下，我认为这显示出了唯教会论与唯圣经论的对立。 To say, Well, we just don’t know, given the absolute lack of any biblical evidence on this whatsoever, shows, I think, the issue of sola ecclesia here over against sola scriptura.
下一个问题：怀特博士，如果马利亚和其他圣徒据说因为不是神就不能处理 我们在地上的祷告，那么撒但怎么可能如此持续不断地试探我们所有人？ Next question: Dr. White, if Mary and the other saints supposedly can’t handle those prayers from us on earth because they are not God, how is it then possible for Satan to be tempting all of us as constantly and consistently as he does?
你认为撒但是无所不知的吗？ Do you believe Satan to be omniscient?
不，是通过他的魔鬼。 No, it’s through his demons.
马德里先生，你有回应吗？ Mr. Madrid, do you have a response?
他要求我简明扼要。 He asked me to be succinct.
好吧，我认为我们刚才看到的是一个明显的躲避要害的例子，因为那个问题正中要害。 Well, I think that what we just saw here is a clear example of dodging a bullet because that question was right on target.
换句话说，魔鬼是一个受造物，圣彼得在他的第二封 书信中告诉我们，撒但如同吼叫的狮子遍地游行。 In other words, the devil is a creature, and St. Peter tells us in his second epistle that Satan is like a roaring lion prowling around.
他没有说撒但和他的团队，他指的是撒但本身——魔鬼本身。 He doesn’t say Satan and his crew; he refers to Satan himself—the devil himself.
所以撒但这个个体本身所进行的试探具有独特的个人特质。 So there is a unique and personal quality to the temptation that Satan, the individual being himself, carries out.
提问者说得完全对：这是一个在全球范围内发生的事情，影响着数十亿人。 And the questioner was absolutely right: this is something that’s going on on a global scale, affecting billions of people.
吉姆只是通过说「哦，是他的魔鬼在做这事」来躲避要害。 Jim simply just dodged the bullet by saying, Oh, well, it’s his demons doing it.
我想房间里的每个人都明白这个问题的力度——一个受 造物在做一件我们无法理解如何做到的不可思议的事。 Everyone in the room, I think, understands the force of the question—that it’s a creature performing an unbelievable action that we can’t understand how it can be done.
但事实是，这个受造物能够做到这一点，延伸这个思想就是，天上的圣徒 更是如此，因为他们在基督里并借着祂的恩典，能够做出令人惊讶的事。 But the fact is, this creature is capable of doing it, and the extension of that thought is that the saints in heaven, even more so, because they are in Christ and through His grace, are capable of doing astounding things.
下一个问题。 Next question.
马德里先生，我有一个两部分的问题。 Mr. Madrid, mine is a two-part question.
请把麦克风靠近你的嘴。 Please hold the microphone close to your mouth.
马德里先生，我有一个两部分的问题。 Mine is a two-part question, Mr. Madrid.
明确地看圣经，你们是在人面前自称为义的，但神知道你们的心。 Looking clearly at the Bible, you are the ones that justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your heart.
通篇圣经我们都知道，只有神知道我们的心。 All throughout the Bible, we know that only God knows our heart.
好吗？ Okay?
是的，据我所知，现任这位教宗册封的圣徒比整个教会历史上的都多。 Yes, now this Pope that we know in this office has canonized more saints, to my understanding, than the history of the whole entire Church.
作为人，我们怎能判断一个人的心而决定他应该成为圣徒？ Who are we as men to determine the heart of a man that he should become a saint?
如果教宗和过去的教宗都是对的，那么圣克里斯托 弗怎么办？数百万人带着对他的敬奉进入坟墓。 And if the Pope and past popes were right, then what of St. Christopher, whom millions went to their grave venerating?
顺便说一下，这是个很好的问题，我感谢你的提问。 Okay, that’s an excellent question, by the way, and I thank you for it.
问题并不在于教会决定让他们成为圣徒；实际上，这根本不是问题所在。 The issue is not so much that the Church decides to make them saints; actually, that’s not the issue at all.
按照我们现在使用这个词的特定含义——即公教会的含义，任何在天堂的人都是圣徒。 Anyone who is in heaven is a saint in the particular sense that we’re using the term now—in the Catholic sense.
但正如吉姆指出的，所有基督徒都是圣徒；在地上的是圣徒，在天上的也是圣徒。 But as Jim pointed out, all Christians are saints; those on earth are saints, those in heaven are saints.
但按照这个特定用法，教会在册封圣徒时所做的是宣布这个人确实在天堂。 But according to this particular usage, what the Church does at a canonization is declare that this person definitely is in heaven.
我们不是在这方面有追随者。 We’re not having followers to this.
不过，这不是我的问题。 That wasn’t my question, though.
我的问题是，你们如何判定谁能进天堂？ My question was, how would you determine who is to make it to heaven?
教会如何判定那个人是如何进入天堂的？ How does the Church determine how that man gets to heaven?
教会通过观察那个人生命中的英雄品质来判定。 The Church determines that by looking at the heroic qualities of that person’s life.
所以教会要检验的第一件事就是美德：这个人是否是耶稣基督的追随者？ So one of the first things that the Church would examine would be virtue: was this person a follower of Jesus Christ?
他的生活是否符合耶稣对我们的要求？ Did he live in conformity with what Jesus asks of us?
然后会进行一些测试。 And then there are certain tests that are applied.
例如，为了确定某人在天堂是圣徒，教会要求有 一些奇迹——不是特定的奇迹，但必须有奇迹。 For example, in order for somebody to be reckoned as a saint in heaven with certitude, then the Church requests that certain miracles—not particular miracles, but that there be miracles.
比如说，当有人在临终关怀中快要死于癌症，全身都是癌症，可能只有几天 可活，而当这个人通过一位圣徒的代祷——例如最近被册封的圣庇护神父— —完全康复，癌症完全消失，医生们都感到困惑，无法用任何医学或科学方 式解释，教会就会认为这是那个人代祷能力的证据，并宣布那个人在天堂。 So for example, when you have somebody who is dying of cancer in hospice, riddled with cancer, maybe only a few days to live, and when that person, through the intercession of a saint—for example, St. Padre Pio, who was recently canonized—is completely cured, where there is no trace of the cancer, and the doctors are baffled, there’s no way to explain it in any medical or scientific way, the Church will recognize that as evidence of the intercessory power of that person, and the Church declares that that person is in heaven.
现在，我给你简述了册封圣徒的过程，但这是基于：那个人 是否表现出我们知道必须具备才能进入天堂的那些品质？ Now, I’m giving you a truncated version of what the process of canonization is, but it’s based upon: did that person exhibit those qualities that we know must be there for him or her to be in heaven?
怀特先生？ Mr. White?
好吧，如果我采用和上一个问题相同的方式，我就不得不说，这是在躲避要害。 Well, if I were to take the same approach as the last question, I would have to say, well, that’s dodging a bullet.
我们完全没有听到关于圣克里斯托弗的任何回答，因为这确 实说明了整个过程是可能有错的，是基于非圣经的教导。 We didn’t hear anything about St. Christopher at all because it does illustrate the fact that the whole process is a fallible one, that it’s based upon an unbiblical teaching.
这种功德超额的概念完全是非圣经的。 This concept of excess merit is thoroughly and completely unbiblical.
根本没有什么功德库或类似的东西。 There is no treasury of merit or anything of the kind.
所以问题是，当我们说，好吧，我要向这个人祷告，但这位教宗可能还在炼狱或诸如 此类的事情，这整个——我们在这里讨论的一切都远远超出了你——读新约圣经。 So the problem is that when we talk about, Well, I will pray to this person, but this pope may be still in purgatory or something like that, that whole—everything we’re discussing here is so far beyond what you—read the New Testament.
读读祷告文；找出新约中的每一个祷告。 Read the prayers; find every prayer in the New Testament.
在新约的任何祷告中，你都找不到任何类似这样的东西。 You won’t find anything even remotely like this in any of the prayers of the New Testament.
这就是为什么我们刚才听到了关于庇护神父的事。 That’s why we just heard about Padre Pio.
有一个锡克教徒开车从机场接我；他在10岁时被一个宗教领袖治愈。 I had a Sikh drive me in my car from the airport; he was healed at 10 years of age by a religious leader.
这是否意味着那个人——这意味着什么？ Does that mean that that person—what does that mean?
这意味着撒但装作光明的天使，这就是它的意思。 Well, it means that Satan masquerades as an angel of light, is what it means.
我们必须有一个客观的标准来检验事物。 We have to have an objective standard by which to test things.
这个标准就是神的道。 That standard is the Word of God.
我认为今晚这一点已经清楚地表明了。 I think that is clearly being illustrated this evening.
下一位提问者。 Next questioner.
这个问题是给怀特先生的。 This question is for Mr. White.
怀特先生，你今晚澄清说早期教会使用七十士译本。 Mr. White, you clarified tonight that the early Church used the Septuagint.
七十士译本？ The Septuagint?
我说的是使徒们使用七十士译本。 I said the apostles used the Septuagint.
好的，那就更好了。 Okay, that’s even better.
谢谢。 Thank you.
七十士译本是旧约，它与公教会的圣经完全相同，列出了其中所有的书卷。 The Septuagint is the Old Testament; it’s identical to the Catholic Bible, listing all the books that are in it.
既然你的姐妹已经皈依了公教会，她是否使用那本圣经？ Now that your sister has converted to the Catholic Church, does she use that Bible?
两个问题，两个错误。 Two problems, two errors.
我不知道她是否了解这个具体问题，你得问她。 And I don’t know that she would know anything about this particular issue; you’d have to ask her.
但你犯的第一个错误是假设七十士译本的正典与你们的完全相同。 But the first error that you’ve made is to assume that the canon of the Septuagint is identical to yours.
这是你的第一个错误。 That’s your first error.
在这一点上，你的学术研究落后了大约120年。 You're about 120 years behind in your scholarship on that point.
比如说，如果你看看现代研究，你会发现所谓的巴 勒斯坦正典和亚历山大正典之间的区别并不存在。 If you would look, for example, at modern studies, you would discover that the distinction between an alleged Palestinian and Alexandrian canon does not exist.
例如，犹太人斐洛并不接受旁经；同样，亚他拿修、耶柔米和罗马教宗大贵格利也不接受。 Philo the Jew, for example, did not hold the apocryphal books; then again, neither did Athanasius, Jerome, or Gregory the Great, Pope of Rome.
但如果你想听的话，我和杰里·马蒂蒂克斯曾经就这个问题进行过辩论。 But we did a debate on that if you’d like to hear that between myself and Jerry Matitix at one point.
但关于我姐妹知道什么，我所知道的是她从未和我谈论过她的皈依，而 现在我听到的只是她可能在《磐石》杂志或类似刊物上读到的内容。 But as to what my sister knows, all I know is she never talked to me about her conversion, and right now all I’m hearing is just what she would read in This Rock magazine or something like that.
我认为她并不了解七十士译本的正典是什么，所以我不明白你为什么要问我这个问题。 I don’t think she has any idea what the canon of the Septuagint was, so I’m not sure why you’d ask me that question.
马德里先生，这是一个很有趣的问题。 Mr. Madrid, that’s a very interesting question to ask.
我当然不知道帕蒂·邦兹使用什么版本的圣经。 I certainly don’t know what version of Scripture Patty Bonds used.
顺便说一下，帕蒂·邦兹是詹姆斯的姐妹；她一年半 前加入了公教会，我不知道她使用什么版本的圣经。 Patty Bonds, by the way, is James' sister; she came to the Catholic Church a year and a half ago, and I don’t know what version of Scripture she uses.
下次我和她谈话时，我会问她这个问题。 Next time I talk to her, I will ask her that.
但我可以告诉你她确实使用公教会的圣经，其中包含公教会所教导的圣经正典，包括旧 约的七部次经，以及在英王钦定本圣经中被删除的以斯帖记和但以理书的部分内容。 But I can tell you she does use the Catholic Bible that contains the canon of Scripture that the Catholic Church teaches, which includes the seven deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament, as well as sections of Esther and Daniel that were omitted from the King James Bible.
我还可以提到的另一件事是，考虑到詹姆斯提到的不知道——请原谅我无 法准确重述——但不知道她对这件事的想法，这是一个值得关注的点。 The other thing I can mention is, given the point that James made about not knowing— forgive me for not being able to rephrase it exactly—but not knowing what her thought is on the matter, it’s a point of interest.
我认为她的皈依故事，其中她解释了她成为公教徒的原因以及她是如何在一个新教 家庭中长大的，以一种非常全面且富有爱心的方式阐述了她皈依公教会的原因。 I think that her conversion story, in which she explains what her reasons were for becoming Catholic and how she was raised in a Protestant home, lays out her reasons for converting to the Catholic Church in a very thorough and also charitable way.
这在《真理使人惊叹》的续集《真理使人惊叹3》中，将于今年秋天出版。 This is in the sequel to Surprised by Truth, which is Surprised by Truth 3, coming out this fall.
所以任何对阅读她自己叙述的原因有哪怕一点兴趣的人，几个月后就能读到。 So anybody who has the least bit of interest in reading in her own words her reasons for that will be able to do that in a few months.
我想提醒大家，今晚辩论的主题是祷告。 I want to remind you that the topic for the debate this evening is prayer.
现在我们正在回答他们提出的问题。 Now we’re answering the question that they’ve posted.
主题是：向圣徒祷告和敬奉圣徒，以及敬奉代表 他们的圣像，是否与圣经和基督教传统相符？ The topic is: Is prayer to and veneration of the saints, as well as the veneration of sacred images that represent them, compatible with Scripture and Christian tradition?
你们的问题应该反映今晚的主题。 Your questions should reflect that topic of the evening.
下一个问题：首先，我要感谢你们两位先生。 The next question: first, I’d like to thank both you gentlemen.
我的问题是向马德里先生提的。 I direct my question to Mr. Madrid.
在罗马公教会中，圣物——就是殉道者或教宗的骨片或衣物等——不是被敬拜 In the Roman Catholic Church, aren’t relics—that is, pieces of bone or clothing of martyrs or popes, etc.—worshipped
像圣像那样被认为具有特殊的治愈能力吗？ as icons in the sense that special healing powers are attributed to them?
不，它们不是作为圣像被敬拜。 No, they’re not worshipped as icons.
它们完全不被敬拜。 They’re not worshipped at all.
圣徒的遗物在主眼中是宝贵的；圣经告诉我们，祂圣徒的死在祂眼中极为宝贵。 The relics of the saints are precious in the eyes of the Lord; Scripture tells us that the death of His holy ones is precious in His eyes.
因此，从最早的时候起，教会就敬重圣徒的遗物——不是作为敬拜的对象或类似 的东西，而是因为我们意识到这些人是圣灵的殿，是神的灵亲自居住的所在。 And so the Church, from the earliest days, has reverenced the remains of the saints—not as some object of worship or anything like that, but rather because we realize that these men and women were temples of the Holy Spirit, indwelled by the Spirit of God Himself.
因此，除了他们常常是作为殉道者而死这个事实外，他们的遗物值得尊重。 Therefore, in addition to the fact that they died very often as martyrs, their relics are worthy of respect.
所以没有公教徒敬拜任何圣徒的遗物。 So no Catholic worships the relic of any saint.
我从未遇到过这样做的公教徒；我也不这样做。 我从未听说过公教会曾提议我们应该这样做。 I’ve never met a Catholic who does; I don’t. I’ve never heard of the Catholic Church ever proposing that we should.
相反，我们怀着神圣的记念持守它们，我们敬重它们。 But rather, we hold them in sacred memory and we reverence them.
这就是为什么你有时会看到装饰华丽的圣物匣；它们可能镶嵌着宝石或以某种方式试图表 现这位殉道者的重要性——不是作为敬拜的对象，而是通过祂圣徒的死来彰显神的荣耀。 That’s why you sometimes will see reliquaries that are ornate; they have perhaps precious stones or they’re in some way trying to show the importance of this martyr—not as an object of worship, but to show forth the glory of God through the death of His holy ones.
怀特先生？ Mr. White?
好吧，这再次说明了唯教会和唯圣经之间的区别。 Well, this again illustrates the difference between sola ecclesia and sola scriptura.
在新约中没有任何内容暗示这种做法或这种做法的正当性。 There is nothing in the New Testament that even begins to hint at such a practice or the propriety of such a practice.
我们认识到在宗教改革时期，敬奉圣物能给你带来各种赎罪券。 We recognize that at the time of the Reformation, the veneration of relics gave you all sorts of indulgences.
所以在这里，比如说，通过去看一根据称来自天使加百列的羽 毛，你就能减少在炼狱的时间，从功德库中获得神的恩典。 So here, by going and, for example, looking at a feather that allegedly came from the angel Gabriel, you can receive time out of purgatory and receive grace from God from the treasury of merit.
我认为这样的事情根本不可能说，好吧，你知道，这只是尊敬。 I think something like this is just simply impossible to say, Well, you know, that’s just honor.
这很明显是在宗教背景下；这是在寻求恩典和功德的背景下。 It’s very, very clear this is in a religious context; this is in a context of seeking grace and merit.
因此，正如我们今晚所看到的，这违反了圣经对偶像崇拜的禁令。 And as we have seen this evening, therefore, it violates the biblical prohibition against idolatry.
通过观看某个500年前死去的人的股骨来寻求获得赎罪券 、神的恩典和免于惩罚，这绝不是基督教信仰的任何部分。 To seek to gain indulgence and grace from God and freedom from punishment by looking at some femur of someone who died 500 years ago is not a part of the Christian faith in any way, shape, or form.
谢谢你的问题。 Thanks for the question.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我的问题是给马德里先生的，如果我读得不太好请见谅。 My question is for Mr. Madrid, and bear with me if I’m not reading this too well.
鉴于旧约中反对与死人交通的教导，见于申命记18:10-11和以赛亚书 8:19，这与罗马公教会教导地上的圣徒向天上的圣徒祷告有什么不同？ In light of the Old Testament teaching against communicating with the dead, found in Deuteronomy 18:10-11 and Isaiah 8:19, why is that different than the Roman Catholic teaching of saints on earth praying to saints in heaven?
如果我正确理解了这个问题，你是在问，旧约中被禁止的通灵术，与 可以追溯到教会最早期的请求圣徒代祷的基督教传统有什么异同？ If I understand the question correctly, what you’re asking is how does necromancy, which is forbidden in the Old Testament, compare or contrast with the Christian tradition that goes back to the very earliest days of the Church of invoking the intercession of the saints?
区别是这样的…… The difference would be this...
在旧约中，禁止通灵术正是因为它涉及邪恶的力量来召唤灵魂、使死人复活， 就像我们看到隐多珥的巫婆召唤先知撒母耳的灵，让扫罗知道发生了什么事。 In the Old Testament, the prohibitions against necromancy are precisely because it involved diabolical powers to conjure spirits, to raise the dead, as we saw with the witch of Endor raising the spirit of the prophet Samuel so that Saul could find out what was going on.
这些事情在每处被禁止，都是因为它试图利用神以外的力量。 Every place where these things are forbidden is precisely because it is trying to tap into a power other than God.
换句话说，这是落入魔鬼诡计的一种方式，因为这是邪恶的活动。 In other words, it’s a way of falling prey to the wiles of the devil because this is diabolical activity.
公教会一直禁止通灵术；打开《公教会教理》，你就会看到教会在哪里说过这一点。 The Catholic Church has always forbidden necromancy; open the Catechism, and you’ll see examples of where the Church says this.
教父们谈到过禁止通灵术。 The Church Fathers speak about the prohibition against necromancy.
然而，区别在于那些在天堂中在基督里活着的人，如果神允许，能够听到 我们的祷告，回应我们的祷告，有时甚至被允许与地上的人直接接触。 The difference, however, is that those who are alive in Christ in heaven, if God permits it, are able to hear our prayers, answer our prayers, and they’re even at times permitted to come into direct contact with human beings here on earth.
例如，在变像山上，神自己，主耶稣基督，让地上的三位活着的圣徒——彼得 、雅各和约翰——与天上的两位活着的圣徒——摩西和以利亚——直接接触。 For example, on the Mount of Transfiguration, God Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ, brought into direct contact three living saints here on earth—Peter, James, and John—with three living saints in heaven—Moses and Elijah.
主自己出于祂那不可测的目的，安排了他们之间的这种接触。 And the Lord Himself, for His own inscrutable purposes, arranged for this contact between the two of them.
那不是通灵术。 That was not necromancy.
现在，我承认彼得、雅各和约翰没有向摩西和以利亚请求任何事情 的事实；没有代祷，没有请求，没有那些事情，也没有人说有。 Now, I grant the fact that Peter, James, and John didn’t request anything from Moses and Elijah; there was no intercession, there was no petition, there was none of that stuff, and nobody claims there is.
但事实是，在基督里并通过基督，我们与那些在天 堂活着的人有一种联系，这与通灵术完全无关。 But the fact is, in and through Christ, there is a connection that we have with those who are alive in heaven that has nothing whatsoever to do with necromancy.
怀特先生，你不得不把摩西和以利亚这种绝对独特的经历——他们代表律法和 先知，在变像山上向三位主要使徒显现，作为律法和先知的见证，基督的弥赛 亚身份和神性的证据——与圣徒代祷的概念相提并论，这个事实本身就表明， 要找出任何看起来哪怕稍微符合圣经的东西来支持这个概念，需要走多远。 Mr. White, the very fact that you have to parallel the absolutely unique experience of Moses and Elijah, representing the Law and the Prophets, appearing upon the Mount of Transfiguration to the three chief apostles as evidence of the testimony of the Law and the Prophets, the Messiahship and deity of Jesus Christ, the concept of the intercession of the saints, I think demonstrates just how far one must go to come up with anything that even remotely looks biblical in regards to this concept.
读以赛亚书8:19-20：「人对你们说：『当求问那些交鬼的和行 巫术的，就是声音绵蛮，言语微细的』，百姓不当求问自己的神吗？」 Read Isaiah 8:19-20: When they say to you, 'Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,' should not a people consult their God?
「岂可为活人求问死人呢？」 Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
这些问题的答案是显而易见的。 The answers to those questions are obvious.
注意第20节说什么：「人当以训诲和法度为标准！」 And notice what comes in verse 20: To the law and to the testimony!
「他们所说的，若不与此相符，必不得见晨光。」 If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
要回到训诲和法度。 Go to the law and the testimony.
这是这段经文的劝勉。 That is the exhortation of this passage.
它使用了与新教徒相同的活人和死人之间的区分。 It uses the very same distinction that Protestants use between living and dead.
那些死了的人不都在神里面活着吗？ Aren't all those who are dead alive in God?
当然是的，但称他们为死人是恰当的，而且不应该为活人求问他们。 Well, of course they are, but it’s proper to refer to them as the dead, and they are not to be consulted on behalf of the living.
请在这时不要鼓掌。 No applause, please, at this point.
下一位提问者。 Next questioner.
晚上好，先生们。 Good evening, gentlemen.
我的名字——算了。 My name—forget it.
这是给马德里先生的问题。 This is for Mr. Madrid.
既然你们都同意圣徒确实是信徒，这一点从保罗如何称呼圣徒就可以证明，你能否解 释一下，为什么当你传达关于向圣徒祷告的经文时，你会自动描述那些已经去世的圣 徒，而不是活着的圣徒为彼此祷告，而不一定是已经在天堂的圣徒为我们祷告？ Since you both were in agreement that the saints are truly believers, which is attested in how Paul addressed the saints, can you please explain to me why it is that you automatically, when you’re conveying Scripture about praying to the saints, that you’re automatically describing saints that are already passed away and not the saints that are living to pray for each other, and not necessarily the saints that are already in heaven to pray for us?
马德里先生？ Mr. Madrid?
谢谢。 Thank you.
如果我理解你的问题——我会试着按我理解的来说——你是在 问今晚提到的经文段落是否处理了代祷、祷告、表示尊敬等对 地上圣徒的事，以及是否适合把这些应用到天上的圣徒身上？ If I understand your question—and I will try to state it as I understood it—what you’re asking is whether the scriptural passages that were brought up tonight deal with the intercession, the prayer, showing honor, and so forth to saints on earth, and is it appropriate to apply those to the saints in heaven?
这样理解你的问题对吗？ Does that do justice to your question?
换句话说，这些经文是否也适用于天上的圣徒？ In other words, do those verses apply also to the saints in heaven?
是吗？ Yes?
它们是自动适用的吗？ Are they automatically applied?
好吧，简单来说，我能给出的最好答案是肯定的，这也是我开场陈述的论点。 Okay, well, just in a succinct way, the best way I could answer that is yes, and that was the thesis of my opening statement.
就是说所有这些尊敬、帮助、为之祷告的命令——我们之 前谈到的所有这些事——都是基督身体所有成员的责任。 That is that all of these commandments to honor, to assist, to pray for—all of these things that we talked about earlier—those are incumbent upon all members of the body of Christ.
我之前说的重点是，那些在天上的人，尽管我们肉眼看不见他 们，希伯来书12:1告诉我们他们是如同云彩围着我们的见 证人，而见证人这个词意味着他们在观看；他们在看着我们。 The point that I was making earlier is that those in heaven, even though we can’t see them with our physical eyes, Hebrews 12:1 tells us they are a cloud of witnesses, and the word witness means they’re watching; they’re seeing us.
甚至殉道者这个词就来自见证人这个词，意味着他们在为神的真理作见证。 Even the word martyr comes from that word witness, meaning that they are testifying to the truth of God.
所以我们之前谈到的这些经文，通过延伸，当然也包括那些在天上的圣徒。 So these passages that we spoke about earlier definitely include, by extension, those saints in heaven.
而且我认为我之前的评论仍然没有得到回答：这些是圣经中的常设命令。 And my earlier comment, I think, has still gone unanswered: that these are a standing command in Scripture.
圣经中没有证据告诉我们，当圣徒离开这个世界进入荣耀中时，这些他们 在地上被命令要做的事，比如为我们祷告，就somehow被废除了。 There is no evidence in Scripture that tells us that when the saints depart from this earth and enter into glory, that these things that they were commanded to do here on earth, such as pray for us, have somehow been rescinded.
两个错误：我当然已经回应过很多次了，我已经指出有许多作 为命令一部分的事情，在我们进入神的同在时就被废除了。 Two errors: I have responded, of course, a number of times, and I have pointed out that there are many things that are part of the command that are rescinded when we enter into the presence of God.
比如说，我们不再需要与罪争战，因为我们已经从中被释放了，等等， We are no longer, for example, to be engaged in the striving against sin because we have been relieved from it, etc.,
等等。第二个错误是希伯来书12章并不是说天上 的圣徒像坐在体育场里一样观看这里发生的事。 etc. The second error is that Hebrews 12 is not saying that the saints in heaven are sitting there like they’re sitting in a stadium watching what’s going on here.
希伯来书12:1是在希伯来书11章的结尾，那里讲的是信心的英雄们， 他们所作的见证是他们生命的见证——而不是说他们在观察这里发生的事。 Hebrews 12:1 comes at the end of Hebrews 11, which talks about the heroes of the faith, and the testimony that they bore was their testimony of their life—not that they are observing what is going on here.
所以经文说：「我们既有这许多的见证人，如同云彩围着 我们，就当放下各样的重担，脱去容易缠累我们的罪。」 So it says, Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us.
这并不意味着他们在地上观察我们在做什么。 That doesn’t mean that they’re here on earth observing what we’re doing.
他们已经作了见证，这就是为什么希伯来书的作者——不是保罗，不管是谁——能在 第2节说，仰望耶稣，而不是仰望其他任何人，包括圣徒、马利亚或其他任何事物。 They have given their testimony, and that’s why the writer to the Hebrews—not Paul, whoever it was—can say in verse 2, Fixing our eyes on Jesus, not on anyone else, including a saint, Mary, or anything else.
下一位提问者。 Next questioner.
首先，让我称赞你们双方进行了一场非常令人振奋、激动和富有教育意义的辩论。 First, let me commend you both for a very invigorating, agitating, and informative debate.
谢谢。 Thank you.
我们知道当耶稣在十字架上时，那个强盗对祂说：「你得国降临的时 候，求你记念我。」马利亚也在那里，耶稣也说——祂说什么来着？ Knowing that when Jesus was on the cross and the thief said to Him, Remember me when You come into Thy kingdom, and Mary was there, and Jesus also said—what did He say now?
「我的神，我的神，为什么离弃我？」马利亚在那里；祂没有请求马利亚为祂祷告。 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Mary was there; He did not ask Mary to pray for Him.
我想请问你们两位对此有什么评论？ I’d like to ask you both what are your comments on that?
我问题的第二部分是：与其通过圣徒祷告，我们能否把圣徒看作我们的导师？ And my second part of the question is: instead of praying through saints, could we look at saints as our mentors?
我先回答第二部分。 I’ll answer the second part first.
我们当然可以把圣徒看作我们的导师；我们应该把他们看作我们的导师。 We certainly can look at the saints as our mentors; we should look at them as our mentors.
圣保罗提醒我们，我们被劝勉要效法圣徒，思考 他们的生命，认识神在他们身上运行的恩典。 St. Paul reminds us that we are urged to imitate the saints, to reflect upon their lives, and recognize God’s grace working in them.
从这个意义上说，他们当然是我们的导师。 In that way, certainly, they’re our mentors.
这就是圣像和图像背后的目的，因为圣像和图像教导无知的人；它们展现了我们在圣保罗 或圣彼得或蒙福的童贞马利亚身上所看到的基督徒生命的美——所以是的，他们可以。 That’s the purpose behind icons and images because the icons and images instruct the ignorant; they show forth the beauty of Christian life as we see it in St. Paul or St. Peter or the Blessed Virgin Mary—so yes, they can.
现在，在十字架脚前，我们必须记住当时发生了什么。 Now, at the foot of the cross, we have to remember what was taking place.
这是最高的牺牲行为：基督通过祂在十字架上的宝血救赎世界。 This is the supreme act of sacrifice: Christ redeeming the world through His blood on the cross.
所以当时发生的是那悔改的强盗在寻求他的救恩。 And so what’s taking place there is the repentant thief seeking his salvation.
他不会通过功德得救；他不会通过任何其他人得救——只能通过基督。 He’s not going to find salvation through merit; he’s not going to find it through anyone else—only through Christ.
所以我们在那里所能期待的唯一恰当的事，也就是我们所看到的，是他单单转向基督。 So the only appropriate thing for us to expect there, which is what we see, is that he turns to Christ alone.
他没有寻求任何其他人。 He is not looking to anyone else.
我不确定你的问题是否还有其他方面，但在十字架脚前，所有的 目光都在基督身上，因为那里发生的一切都是以基督为中心的。 And I’m not sure if there was another element to your question, but at the foot of the cross, all eyes are on Christ because everything that is taking place there is Christ-centered.
这与马利亚或任何其他人无关；这是关于基督在十字架上所做的事。 It has nothing to do with Mary or anyone else; it has to do with what Christ is doing on the cross.
怀特先生，回答问题的第二部分，如果我们从圣经的意义上使用这个词 ，显然我们信仰中所有的导师都是圣徒，因为我们在基督里都是圣徒。 Mr. White, in answer to the second part of the question, if we use that term in a biblical sense, obviously all of our mentors in the faith are saints because we’re all saints in Christ.
没有罗马所做的那种区分，这就是对第二部分的回答。 There is no distinction as Rome makes, and therefore that’s the answer to the second part.
至于第一部分，很有趣的是马德里先生刚才说没有人寻求马利亚得救。 As far as the first part, it was very interesting that Mr. Madrid just said that no one looks to Mary for salvation.
让我感到非常奇怪的是，罗马公教会已经封圣并立利古利的亚尔封索为教会 圣师，而他在他的《马利亚的荣耀》一书中反复重复，一个接一个的祷告中 ，人们正是这样做的：「我把我的灵魂托付给你」，是对马利亚说的。 It strikes me as very strange that the Roman Catholic Church has sainted and made a Doctor of the Church, Alphonsus de Liguori, who in his book The Glories of Mary repeats over and over and over again, prayer after prayer after prayer, where people do exactly that: I entrust my soul to you, addressed to Mary.
如果有人仰望马利亚，他们就不会被释放；他们就不会迷失。 If anyone looks to Mary, they will not be released; they will not be lost.
我问你们任何人，这本书已经出了800个版本，有多种语言，而罗马公教会不 仅封圣并立这个人为教会圣师，还从未说过这本书包含它所包含的明显异端。 I ask any of you, that book has gone through 800 editions in many languages, and the Roman Catholic Church has not only sainted and made the man a Doctor of the Church, it has never once said that this book contains the simple heresy that it does.
所以我只想请你们把今晚听到的东西带走，去找那本书。 So I would just ask you to take the things you hear tonight and go find that book.
我实际上会推荐你们去读它。 I would actually recommend it to you.
这绝对是令人惊讶的。 It is absolutely, positively amazing.
这真正显示了今晚整个问题的危险性，以及当你 放弃唯独圣经而转向唯独教会时会发生什么。 It truly shows the danger of this whole issue this evening and what happens when you abandon sola scriptura in favor of sola ecclesia.
下一个问题。 Next question.
晚上好。 Good evening.
我是一个来自罗马尼亚的基督徒。 I’m a Christian coming from Romania.
我在迫害和困难中发现了神的爱。 I discovered the love of God under persecution and problems.
我只敬拜神和耶稣基督，祂在千万种情况下帮助了我。 I worship only God and Jesus Christ, and He helped me in a thousand situations.
我对我的公教会弟兄的问题是：我因为没有敬拜圣母马利亚和圣徒就不能上天堂吗？ My question to my Catholic brothers is: will I not go to heaven because I didn’t worship Holy Mary and the saints?
或者说，你们敬拜他们比我多得到了什么？ Or what do you have more than me in worshiping them?
谢谢。 Thank you.
马德里先生：我可以说，如果你真的敬拜马利亚和圣徒，你 就不能上天堂，因为你被命令不可敬拜除神以外的任何人。 Mr. Madrid: I can say that if you did worship Mary and the saints, you would not go to heaven because you are commanded not to worship anyone but God.
所以请让我们把这个说公教徒以某种方式敬拜马利亚和圣徒的谬见放下吧。 So please, let’s lay this bugaboo to rest that somehow Catholics worship Mary and the saints.
我们不这样做，这里也没有人提议你应该这样做或我们这样做。 We don’t, and nobody here is proposing that you should or that we do.
我请求你们暂时不要鼓掌；在最后你们会有机会的。 I ask that you please hold your applause; you’ll have the opportunity for that at the end.
继续我的想法，你不会因为处在一个不知道某事是真理的情况而下地狱。 To continue with my thought, you will not go to hell for being in a situation in which you did not know something was true.
你在基督里；你爱耶稣；你确实因着你的洗礼成为祂奥秘身体的一个肢体。 You are in Christ; you love Jesus; you’re a member of His mystical body, certainly by virtue of your baptism.
所以在我看来毫无疑问，如果在你生命结束时，如果神的恩典还没 有以这样的方式照亮你的灵魂，使你能看到基督教某些方面的真理 ，也许你现在还看不到，那么不，你不会因此被定罪下地狱。 So there’s no question in my mind that if, by the time you end your life, if God’s grace has not illuminated your soul in such a way that you can see the truth of certain aspects of Christianity that maybe you don’t see right now, then no, you will not be damned to hell for that.
怀特先生：仅仅一遍又一遍地重复「我们不敬拜马利亚」，在我的对手今晚没有从圣 经角度对敬拜与敬奉的区别的破坏给出任何回答的情况下，是不能解决这个问题的。 Mr. White: Simply repeating over and over again, We do not worship Mary, in light of the destruction of the latria-dulia distinction for which no answer has been given biblically on the part of my opponent this evening is not going to answer the issue.
事实已经非常清楚地摆出来了，我要提醒大家佛罗伦萨大公会议的无误宣言 ，它坚定地相信、宣认并宣告，那些不在公教会内生活的人——不仅是异教 徒，还有犹太人、异端和分裂者——除非在生命结束前加入羊群，否则不能 成为永生的参与者，而是要进入为魔鬼和他的使者所预备的永火里。 The fact has been very clearly laid out, and I would remind everyone of the infallible words of the Council of Florence, which said it firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church—not only pagans but also Jews and heretics and schismatics—cannot become participants in eternal life but will depart into everlasting fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock.
而且教会身体的合一如此强大，只有那些留在其中的人才能从教会的圣事 中得到救恩的益处，禁食、施舍和其他虔诚功能以及基督徒服事的操练才 能产生永恒的奖赏，任何人，无论他实行了什么样的施舍——即使他为基 督的名流血——除非他留在公教会的怀抱和合一中，否则都不能得救。 And that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced—even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ—can be saved unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.
引文结束，登青格尔714。下一位提问者。 End quote, Denzinger 714. Next questioner.
首先，感谢你们两位进行了一场精彩的辩论。 First of all, thank you both for a great debate.
这是一个两部分的问题。 This is like a two-part question.
你要向谁提问？ To whom are you directing the question?
两位都是。 Both of them.
我想看看他们的传统是如何解释这两段关于与死人交谈的经文的。 I would like to see how their traditions interpret these two passages in reference to the conversations with dead people.
在财主和拉撒路的比喻中，这是一个发生在来世的亚伯拉罕和财主之间对话的故事。 In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, this is a story of a conversation between Abraham and the rich man taking place in the afterworld.
这两个人都已经死了。 Both of these men are dead.
如果只有神能听到我们心里的话，亚伯拉罕怎么能听到财主的祷告呢？ If only God could hear what’s in our heart, how is it that Abraham is able to hear the prayer of the rich man?
第二部分是回到登山变像的事。 And the second part to that is back to the Mount of Transfiguration.
耶稣被看见在和摩西、以利亚说话。 Jesus is seen speaking with Moses and Elijah.
既然摩西在旧约中去世了，他是一位先知。 Since Moses passed away in the Old Testament, he’s a prophet.
已经死了的摩西和当时还活着且尚未被钉十字架和复活的耶稣之间进行的是什么样的对话？ What type of conversation is taking place between Moses, who’s dead, and Jesus, who is still alive and has yet to be crucified and resurrected?
耶稣是在向摩西传道，还是在请求祷告？ Is Jesus preaching to Moses, or is He asking for a prayer?
马德里先生？ Mr. Madrid?
我要集中讨论第一个问题，路加福音16章，拉撒路和财主的问题。 I’m going to concentrate on the first question, the issue of Luke 16, Lazarus and the rich man.
我们回到我之前说的观点，路加福音16章中的财主确实在请求 亚伯拉罕的代求——让那个穷人拉撒路回去警告他的兄弟们。 We just go back to the point I was making earlier that certainly the rich man in Luke 16 was asking Abraham for his intercession—that he would have the poor man Lazarus go back to warn his brothers.
而亚伯拉罕自己说在那个地方，就是阴间，在财主所在 之处和亚伯拉罕与拉撒路所在之处之间有深渊限定。 And Abraham himself says that in that place, the abode of the dead, Sheol, there was a great gulf between where the rich man was and where Abraham and Lazarus were.
所以确实有一段距离；不管我们如何计算这个距 离，他们肯定不是——他们并不在彼此附近。 So there was certainly a distance; however we want to reckon that distance, it was certainly not—they weren’t near each other.
所以财主有某种方式向亚伯拉罕传达了他的意图。 So there was some way in which the rich man communicated his intention to Abraham.
我真的不知道我们能在多大程度上依靠那段经文来说明我们今晚所讨论的 内容，但它确实向我们表明，以我们不理解的方式进行交流是可能的。 I don’t know really how much we can lean on that passage to show what we’ve been talking about here tonight, but it does show us certainly that there is a communication that can take place in ways that we don’t understand.
你简单提到只有神知道我们的思想。 You mentioned briefly that only God knows our thoughts.
确实，神知道我们的思想，但神有时也允许我们知道其他人的秘密想法。 Well, it’s true that God knows our thoughts, but God permits us to know the secret thoughts of other people at certain times.
例如，在使徒行传第5章，当亚拿尼亚和撒非喇私留财产，假装把所 有的都捐给教会时，彼得通过神的恩典，知道了他们的秘密想法。 For example, in Acts chapter 5, when Ananias and Sapphira were withholding property and pretending as if they were donating all of it to the Church, Peter, through the grace of God, knew their secret thoughts.
所以，我们认识到如果神选择允许，天上的圣徒能知道地上发生的事，这完全符合圣经。 So it’s really entirely biblical for us to recognize that if God chooses to permit it, His saints in heaven can be aware of those things that are happening here on earth.
这不是因为圣徒自己在做这事。 It’s not because the saints are doing it.
是神通过他们来做的。 God is doing it through them.
我想澄清另一个相关的事：天上的圣徒和地上的圣徒都是圣徒，这一点是无可争议的。 And I want to put to rest one other thing that pertains to this: there is no argument that the saints in heaven and the saints on earth are saints.
我们承认圣经说所有基督徒都是圣徒。 We recognize that the Bible says that all Christians are saints.
所以似乎有一种奇怪的重复论证，这实际上不是问题，因 为毫无疑问我们在地上是圣徒，就像那些在天上的一样。 So there seems to be this odd repetition of an argument that’s a non-issue, really, because there’s no question that we are saints on earth just as those in heaven are.
怀特先生？ Mr. White?
嗯，我之所以这么说，是因为我们有炼狱的概念。 Well, the reason I’ve said that is because we have the concept of purgatory.
从技术意义上说，一个人是圣徒是因为他有多余的功德而不必去炼狱。 A person is a saint in a technical sense because he doesn’t have to go to purgatory because he has excess merit.
我认为这根本不是问题，因此我们有特定的圣徒册封，这甚至是另一个类别。 I don’t think that’s an issue at all, and hence we have the specific canonization of saints, which is even another category.
但关于路加福音16章，它明确说那人喊叫；并没有说他向亚伯拉罕祷告。 But as to Luke 16, it specifically says the man cried out; it does not say he prayed to Abraham.
所以亚伯拉罕如何知道他祷告的意图并不相关，因为那人实际上是在喊叫。 So how Abraham would know the intentions of his prayer isn’t relevant because the man is actually crying out.
这不是祷告的问题。 It’s not a matter of prayer.
但是再说一次，这整个问题回到——你知道，我们在谈论这段经文或那段经文。 But again, this whole issue goes back to—you know, we’re talking about this passage or that passage.
我没有听到任何回应来看这个问题并说，好吧，在路加 福音16章或任何其他这些段落中都没有敬拜发生。 I’m not hearing anything in response to looking at this and going, Well, there’s no worship going on in Luke chapter 16 or in any of these other passages.
而且我不记得第二部分了。 And I don’t remember the second half.
你记得问题的第二部分吗？ Do you remember the second half of the questions?
我觉得我们在回避问题的第二部分。 I think we’re avoiding the second half of the questions.
好吧，那就到此为止吧。 Okay, well, that will be the end of the first half.
如果你有两部分的问题，只问第一部分。 If you have two-part questions, only ask the first part.
下一个问题是——请尽量在30秒内提出你的问题。 The next question is—please try to make your question in 30 seconds.
好的，这个问题是针对马德里先生的。 All right, this is directed towards Mr. Madrid.
我会说得很快。 I’m going to make this quick.
这是关于你提出的第五点。 This is in regard to the fifth point that you made.
请对着麦克风说话。 Speak into the mic, please.
对不起。 I’m sorry.
这是关于你在论述中提到的第五点，就是你用来提醒你想起圣徒和他们美德的图像。 This is in regard to your fifth point you made during your dissertation about images that you used to remind you of the saints and their virtue.
但我想问你，罗马书7:14-27中圣保罗谈到他被卖给罪， 罪住在他里面，他所不愿意做的恶，他反去做，这又如何呢？ But I want to ask you, what about Romans 7:14-27, when St. Paul talks about being a slave to sin and that sin lives inside him, and the evil that he doesn’t want to do, he keeps doing?
我认为我们不应该——请不要陈述你的—— 这是个问题吗？ I don't think that we should—please don’t present your— Is that a question?
好的，没问题。 Okay, no problem.
是的，好的。 Yes, okay.
圣经中的另一点：马太福音19:17，当那个财主问耶稣他该做什么善事，耶 稣告诉他除了神以外，没有一个良善的，如果要得永生，就当遵守神的诫命。 Another point in Scripture: the second one in Matthew 19:17, when the rich person asks Jesus what should he do that is good, and Jesus tells him that no one is good but God, and if you want eternal life, that you should obey His commandments.
而其中一条诫命——第一条诫命——我不知道，也许我们可以为不熟悉的人读一下。 And one of the commandments—the very first commandment—I don’t know, maybe we could read it for the benefit of everybody that’s not familiar with it.
够了，马德里先生。 That’s sufficient, Mr. Madrid.
好吧，老实说我完全忘记问题的第一部分是什么了。 Okay, I honestly totally lost track of what the first part of the question was.
罗马书7:14-27？好的，我演讲中的第五点实际上与图像无关。 Romans 7:14-27? Okay, the fifth point in my talk actually had nothing to do with images.
第五点是关于效法圣徒的，而我关于效法圣徒时提到图像，只是因为 当我们在艺术中看到圣徒的描绘——比如说一个圣像或雕像之类的— —它让我们想起那个人的圣洁，而且圣经告诉我们要效法他们。 The fifth point had to do with imitating the saints, and my emphasis on images with regard to imitating the saints was only that when we see the saints portrayed in art—let’s say an icon or a statue or something like that—it recalls to our mind that person’s holiness, and we are told by Scripture to imitate them.
现在，如果任何东西，包括圣徒的雕像或图像，变成了偶像， 那么我们就会陷入严重的罪中，这是圣经和教会所禁止的。 Now, if anything, including a statue or an image of a saint, were to become an idol, then we’d be falling into grievous sin, and that’s forbidden by Scripture and by the Church.
所以我们必须区分被这些圣像教导和造就，与变得迷信和陷入那种偶像崇拜之间的区别。 So we have to make this distinction between being educated and edified by these icons versus becoming superstitious and falling into that kind of idolatry.
你提到没有人是良善的。 You mentioned no one is good.
偶像崇拜？ Idolatry?
嗯，这是对的。 Well, that’s true.
当然，从最终意义上说，除了神以外没有一个良善的。 Certainly, in the ultimate sense, no one is good except God.
但路加福音1章6节告诉我们，施洗约翰的父母撒迦利亚和伊利莎白，经上说 ：「他们二人在神面前都是义人，遵行主的一切诫命礼仪，没有可指摘的。」 But we are told in Luke 1, verse 6, that Zechariah and Elizabeth, the mother and father of John the Baptist, it says, Both were righteous in the eyes of God, observing all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blamelessly.
所以圣徒分享了神的良善，不是通过他们自己的功德，而是因为他们参与了神自己的生命。 So the saints have a share in the goodness of God, not through their own merits, but because they are participating in the life of God Himself.
这就是他们良善的来源。 That’s where their goodness comes from.
所以当我们尊敬他们时，正如圣奥古斯丁反复说 的，我们实际上是通过神的受造物来尊敬神。 And so when we honor them, we are really, as St. Augustine said over and over again, honoring God through His creatures.
怀特先生？ Mr. White?
嗯，我唯一要说的是圣经实际上说我们要效法基督 ，而保罗说，你们该效法我，像我效法基督一样。 Well, the only comment I would make is that the Bible actually says that we are to imitate Christ, and Paul says, Imitate me as he imitates Christ.
我想这个问题是在问，既然有这常存的罪，这样的效法不会使我们偏离正道吗？ I think what the question was asking was, well, since there is this abiding sin, would that imitation not lead us astray?
再说一次，主要问题是我们要效法神的道所指引我们的，而不是人的话所指引我们的。 Again, the primary issue is that we imitate that which the Word of God directs us to, not which the words of men direct us to.
当我们这样做时，我们在所做的一切事上都会有安全的引导。 And when we do so, we will have a safe guide in everything that we do.
教会历史中有很多这样的事件，比如教宗给那些参观洛雷托圣屋的人颁发 赎罪券，人们相信这座房子是在13世纪由天使从拿撒勒搬到那里的。 There are so many incidents in Church history when the Pope, for example, gave indulgences to the people who visited the house at Loreto that was believed to have been carried there from Nazareth by angels in the 13th century.
那种事情——要效法那个吗？ That kind of thing—imitate that?
不，因为那与圣经相去甚远。 No, because it’s so far removed from the Bible.
我们需要有那个客观标准，感谢神我们在圣经中确实有。 We need to have that objective standard, and thank God we do in the Bible.
我提醒你们，问题应该是一个合理简短的寻求信息的陈述。 I remind you that a question is a reasonably brief statement asking for information.
下一个问题？ The next question?
好的，这是一个连贯的问题。 All right, this is one coherent question.
我有几处经文，因为他提到圣经中没有说在地上的我和天上的圣徒之间没有区别。 I have a couple of Scriptures because he mentioned that there was no Scripture in the Bible saying that there’s no difference between me on earth and a saint in heaven.
请问你的问题是什么？ What is your question, please?
我正要说出我的问题；你只有几秒钟时间。 I’m getting to my question; you have a few seconds to do it.
圣经在哥林多后书5章说，离开身体便与基督同在。 而且，腓立比书也说—— 请问你的问题是什么？ It says in the Bible, To be absent from the body is to be present with Christ in 2 Corinthians 5. And also, going right along with that, it says in Philippians— What is your question, please?
我的问题是：他说没有经文。 My question is this: he says that there are no Scriptures.
但是，圣经中是有这样的经文的。 Now, there are Scriptures in the Bible.
这就是问题吗？ Is that the question?
你想让我回答这个吗？ Would you like me to answer that?
我想提几处经文。 I would like to mention a couple of Scriptures.
不，先生，你有机会提出一个问题。 No, sir, you have the opportunity to ask a question.
那我有一个问题。 I’ve got a question then.
在腓立比书第1章，保罗说与你们同住更为要紧，但你知道 如果我死了去天堂，就必与主同在，但同住更为要紧…… In Philippians chapter 1, Paul says it’s more needful to abide with you, but you know if I die and go to be with heaven, then I’m going to be with the Lord, but it’s more needful to abide...
这不是一个问题。 That’s not a question.
抱歉，请下一位提问。 I’m sorry; the next questioner, please.
那是一个问题。 That is a question.
现在我想知道马德里先生——你愿意发表评论吗？ Now I’m wondering what Mr. Madrid—do you care to make a comment?
我只对此做个简短评论，我感谢你努力提出这个问题。 I’ll just make a brief comment on that, and I appreciate your effort to ask the question.
无论是哥林多前书5章还是腓立比书1:21-23都没有说离开身体就与主同在。 Neither 1 Corinthians 5 nor Philippians 1:21-23 says that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
圣保罗在这两段经文中说，我宁愿离开身体与主同在。 St. Paul, in both passages, says, I would rather be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
所以这是完全不同的语境。 So it’s an entirely different context.
这里他是在渴望与神联合；他并不是说我们离开 身体这个事实本身就意味着我们就与主同在。 Here he’s yearning for union with God; he’s not saying that by the very fact that we are absent from the body, we are therefore present with the Lord.
老实说，我有点跟不上这个问题的主题了。 Honestly, I just sort of lost track of what the theme of the question was.
怀特先生，你有什么评论吗？ Mr. White, do you have a comment?
我不确定刚才说的是不是在试图为炼狱的某些方面辩护；我不知道。 I’m not sure if what was just being said is maybe an attempt to defend something in regards to purgatory; I don’t know.
但我认为所问的是这段经文是否在谈论保罗说他留在这里更好这个事实。 But I think what was being asked is if the passage is talking about the fact that Paul was saying it is better for him to remain here.
在这场辩论早些时候提出过这样的论点：难道我 们作为在天上完全的圣徒不是能做更多事吗？ The argument has been made earlier in this debate, Well, won’t we do much more as perfected saints in heaven?
而这显然不是使徒保罗说与他们同住更为要紧时所理解的意思。 And that evidently is not what the Apostle Paul understood when he said it would be more needful for him to remain with them.
他认识到这里有事工的需要。 He recognized that there was a need for ministry here.
我认为如果我们把今晚使用的论证逻辑推到最后，对我们任何人来说都不会是这样的。 I think if we were to follow the argumentation that has been used this evening out to its logical conclusion, that wouldn’t be the case for any of us.
如果我们立即上天堂，我们都会比现在做得更好，因为我们 会变得完全，我们的祷告会更有力，其他一切也都会更好。 All of us could do better if we got to heaven immediately than we’re doing now because we’d be perfected, and our prayers would be more powerful and everything else.
这显然不是使徒的本意。 That’s obviously not the intention of the Apostle.
我们还有时间再问一个简短的问题，主要是问马德里先生。 We have time for one more brief question, mainly for Mr. Madrid.
我可能想听听怀特博士的评论。 I’d like to hear perhaps Dr. White’s comment.
之前有人提到招魂术；我想就此提出一个实际的问题。 Somebody mentioned necromancy before; I’d like to follow up on that with a practical question about that.
有没有可能有人向亡者祷告，甚至有时候接收异象或显现，会陷入神秘邪术的做法？ Is there any possibility that somebody praying to the departed and maybe even sometimes receiving a vision or apparition could fall into an occultic practice?
或者你认为如果他们遵循罗马公教会的认可，这种情况就不会发生？ Or do you believe if they follow Roman Catholic endorsement that that could not happen?
或者我们应该像旧约时代那样，也像我们今天应该做的 那样，认真对待那些反对偶像崇拜和招魂术的禁令？ Or should we take that prohibition against idolatry and against necromancy seriously, as they did in the Old Testament days, and we should today?
马德里先生？ Mr. Madrid?
这个问题的答案是肯定的，人类总是有陷入偶像崇拜诱惑的危险。 The answer to the question is yes, there is always a danger of human beings falling prey to the temptation to idolatry.
这对我们来说是真实的，就像出埃及记第20章中的以色列人一样 。所以任何倾向于迷信或把图像或圣像视为护身符之类的公教徒都 是在陷入罪中，应该受到责备并从那罪恶的道路上被带回来。 It’s true of us as it was true of the Israelites in Exodus chapter 20. So any Catholic who is tending in the direction of either superstition or viewing images or icons as talismans or anything like that is falling into sin and should be rebuked and brought back out of that sinful way.
这一点毫无疑问。 There is no question about that.
不过，你最后提到的事情，我认为是关键所在，那就是：如 果人们遵循罗马公教会的教导，他们会陷入偶像崇拜吗？ The thing that you mentioned at the end, though, I think is the key to it, and that is: if people follow the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, will they fall into idolatry?
我会给出一个坚定的否定答案，我要请你参考《教理》，其中教会 列出了指导原则，说明如果你参与这个或那个，什么是偶像崇拜。 I would give a hearty no, and I would refer you to the Catechism, in which the Church sets out the guidelines that if you are engaged in this, that, or the other, this is idolatry.
如果你认识到圣徒图像在基督徒生活中的适当位置，并敬奉它们——不是吉姆 早先说的那种意义上的，献上服事或敬拜——这完全不是我们在这里讨论的。 If you are recognizing the appropriate place in Christian life for images of the saints and you reverence them—not in the sense that Jim was talking about earlier, offering service or worship—that’s not what we’re talking about here at all.
不，如果你遵循那些指导原则，你就不会陷入偶像崇拜。 No, if you follow those guidelines, then you will not fall into idolatry.
怀特先生？ Mr. White?
我认为简单看看巴西、墨西哥和西班牙，以及桑特里亚教，就很好地说明了由于敬拜与敬奉 的区别并不存在，而且因为它不存在所以没有人能遵循它，因为我们内心深处都知道，当你 看到一个人手持念珠跪在雕像前，点燃蜡烛，来回摇晃，那就是宗教场合，那就是敬拜。 I think that a brief look at Brazil, Mexico, and Spain, and Santería, is a very good indication that since the latria-dulia distinction does not exist, and since no one can live with it because it doesn’t exist, since we know in our heart of hearts that when you see a person bowing before a statue with beads in their hands, lighting candles, rocking back and forth, that that is a religious context and that is worship.
你可以说出所有你想要的意图之词；记住乌撒。 Give all the intention words you want; remember Uzzah.
既然通过拒绝唯独圣经并接受罗马权威，那在圣经中发现 的区别已被推翻，你就不可避免地会陷入那些做法中。 Since that distinction that has found the Bible has been overthrown through the rejection of sola scriptura and the embracing of the authority of Rome, you cannot avoid but fall into those very practices.
我们要在11:45结束整个问答时间，根据我的手表，我们还剩大约40秒。 We are to be done with the entire question and answer time by 11:45, and according to my watch, we have about 40 seconds left.
这给了我时间来称赞你们；你们今晚是一个很好的听众。 That gives me time to commend you; you’ve been an excellent audience tonight.
这也是一个机会让你们对两位非常优雅和公平的辩论者表示赞赏。 It’s also an opportunity for you to give a commendation to two very gracious and fair debaters.