嗨，欢迎来到《与阿奎那共饮》。 Hi, welcome to Pints with Aquinas.
我刚刚采访了蒂姆·斯台普斯，讨论关于马利亚的四大教义。 I just interviewed Tim Staples on the Four Marian Dogmas.
也就是神的母亲马利亚，马利亚的终身童贞，马利亚的无原罪始胎，马利亚的被提升天。 That is to say, Mary, the Mother of God, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the immaculate conception, the assumption of Mary.
我们甚至谈到了马利亚作为万恩中保，可能成为未来的第五个马利亚教义。 We even talked about Mary being the mediatrix of all graces, a possible fifth Marian dogma to be defined in the future.
谁知道呢？ Who knows?
哇。 Wow.
这是一次如此重要的采访，我心想，我回家后明天再录制开场白。 It was such a big interview, and I thought to myself, well, I'll go home and I'll record the intro tomorrow.
然后我想，不，我不能那样做，因为如果那样， 我就没有现在这股在我血管中涌动的热情了。 And then I thought, no, I'm not going to do that, because if I do that, I won't have the kind of enthusiasm that is just pulsing through my veins right now.
天哪，天哪，天哪，天哪。 My goodness, goodness, goodness, goodness gracious.
这就像是那唯一的采访。 This is like the one interview.
如果你想了解公教会关于圣母的教导，以及为何你与 她有关系并应当对她有敬奉之心，这就是那次采访。 If you want to understand what the Catholic Church teaches about the Blessed Mother and why it is you have a relationship with her and ought to develop a devotion to her, this is that one interview.
我想请你为我做件事。 And I would ask you to do something for me.
我希望你把这个视频分享给你的一位新教朋友。 I would like you to share this video with a Protestant friend of yours.
点击分享，把它放在Facebook和Twitter上。 Click share, put it on Facebook, put it on Twitter.
直接发给你的一位新教朋友。 Send it directly to a Protestant friend of yours.
如果你是新教徒在观看这个，我恳求你保持开放的心态。 And if you're a Protestant watching this, I just beg you to be open-minded.
你能听我唠叨几分钟，这本身就证明你有开放的心态。 The fact that you've even gotten through a couple of minutes of me jabbering is evidence that you have an open mind.
但请在听这个时保持开放的心态。 But please have an open mind as you listen to this.
作为公教会的基督徒，我对新教的弟兄姊妹有极大的爱。 As a Catholic, I have tremendous love for my Protestant brothers and sisters.
我也能理解新教的弟兄姊妹，当他们看到公教会基 督徒面前有马利亚的雕像和燃烧的蜡烛时的感受。 And I also can sympathize with my Protestant brothers and sisters when they look at Catholics and they see statues of Mary and candles burning before her.
我明白。 I get it.
从新教的角度来看，我能理解这看起来有多奇怪。 Coming from a Protestant perspective, I can see how that looks weird.
但新教徒也有些做法在我们看来很奇怪。 But there are also things that Protestants do that look weird to us.
我想你会对我说，好吧，这与你习惯的文化不同。 And I think what you would say to me is, okay, this is a different culture to what you're used to.
至少给我们一个解释的机会。 At least give us the chance to explain it.
所以这就是我在这一集想做的。 And so that's what I want to do in this episode.
我希望蒂姆帮助你理解公教会基督徒对马利亚的 信仰，以及所有基督徒应当对马利亚的信仰。 I want Tim to help you understand what Catholics believe about Mary and what all Christians should believe about Mary.
每当我们做《与阿奎那共饮》节目时，我们都会上传节目后的总结视频。 Now, whenever we do these Pints of Aquinas shows, we put up post-show wrap-up videos.
这次的非常精彩。 This one was awesome.
所以在今天的节目后总结视频中，我问他关于马利亚的显现，历史上圣母的显现。 So, the post-show wrap-up video today, I asked him about Marian apparitions, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary throughout history.
我问他哪些显现最令他信服，并请他对梅杜戈耶据称的圣母显现发表看法。 I asked him the ones he finds the most convincing, and I asked him to give us his opinion on the alleged apparitions of the Blessed Mother in Medjugorje.
你绝对不想错过。 You are not going to want to miss that.
相信我。 Believe me.
所以，如果你是赞助者，我们会在今天结束时上传。 So, if you're a patron, we'll have it up at the end of the day.
到今天结束时，你就可以观看了。 By the end of the day, you can watch it.
如果你想成为赞助者…… And if you want to become a patron...
你将能观看我们所有的节目后总结视频。 you'll get access to all of these post-show wrap-up videos that we do.
这真的很棒。 It was really great.
你能看出我现在超级兴奋吗？ Can you tell that I'm just like super pumped right now?
因为我现在超级兴奋。 Because I am super pumped right now.
请帮个忙，点击下面的订阅和那个铃铛按钮，这样就能让谷歌在我们发布新视频时通知你。 Do me a favor, click subscribe below and that bell button, and that will force Google to let you know whenever we put out a new video.
说实话，让谷歌通知你关于圣母的视频，这是一件美好的事。 And quite honestly, forcing Google, come on, forcing them to let you know when a video comes out on the Blessed Mother, that's a beautiful thing.
另外，正如我们一贯所做的，我们将在接下来的几周内发布一些视频，就是这次 与蒂姆采访的小片段，因为这次采访相当长，这样你可以将这些小片段分享给你 新教的弟兄姊妹，公教会的弟兄姊妹，让我们都能对神的母亲有更准确的认识。 Also, as we always do, we're going to be putting out videos over the next couple of weeks, just little snippets from this interview with Tim, because it was quite a long interview, so that you can share those little snippets with your Protestant brothers and sisters, your Catholic brothers and sisters, so that we can all have a more accurate view of the Mother of God.
好了，就这样吧。 All right, that'll do.
节目开始。 Here's the show.
蒂姆·斯台普斯，很高兴见到你。 Tim Staples, it's good to see you.
和你在一起真好，我的朋友。 It is good to be with you, my friend.
你是在看我的脸还是屏幕上的我？ Are you looking at my face or a monitor of me?
不，我正看着你的脸，那位有胡子的奇人。 No, I'm looking right at your face, the bearded wonder himself.
是啊，是啊。 Yeah, yeah.
本，你知道，自从你离开后，这地方好空啊。 Ben, you know, this place is so empty since you left, man.
我想念天主教答疑。 I miss Catholic Answers.
最近和你在一起时，我们在哪个晚会上？ When I was with you recently, where were we at that gala?
我不想撒谎。 I'm not going to lie.
我有点想打电话给我妻子，问她我能不能试着说服你再给我一份工作。 There was part of me that was like, I'm just going to call my wife, ask her if I can try and talk you into giving me a job again.
是的。 Yes.
和你在一起真好，兄弟。 It is good to be with you, man.
很高兴看到你做得这么好。 It's great to see you're doing such great work.
哦，求神，我是。 Oh, please, God, I am.
是的，我非常享受那段时光。 Yeah, I just thoroughly enjoyed my time.
对于正在观看的人，蒂姆·斯台普斯曾是我在天主教答疑时三年的老板。 For those who are watching, Tim Staples was my boss back in the days of Catholic Answers for three years.
我从你那里学到了很多，蒂姆，在天主教答疑工作时真是快乐。 I learned so much from you, Tim, and it was just a joy to work at Catholic Answers when I did.
嗯，我们也失去了很多人，因为我们这里现在没有澳大利亚口音了。 Well, we've also lost a whole lot of people because we don't have an Australian accent now here.
是的。 Right.
就像，我不想要特朗普的智慧。 Like, I don't want Trump intellect.
我们需要澳大利亚口音。 We need an Aussie accent.
是啊，真好笑。 Yeah, so funny.
今天我们要谈论圣母。 Well, today we're going to talk about the Blessed Mother.
我很高兴谈论这个，因为我们有很多，令人惊讶的许多新教观众。 And I'm really excited to talk about this because we have a lot, a surprising amount of Protestant viewers.
我希望我们能澄清一些事情。 And my hope is that we can kind of clarify some things.
我认为这是人们对公教会最大的绊脚石之一。 I think this is one of the biggest stumbling blocks people have when it comes to the Catholic Church.
他们不理解。 They don't understand it.
我知道你能谈论这个，因为你曾是浸信会的，对吗？ And I know you're in a place to talk about that because you used to be a Baptist, correct?
还是神召会什么的？ Or Assemblies of God or something?
我确定。 I'm sure.
我都是。 I was both.
我经历过各种。 I was all kind of stuff.
但，是的，我是南方浸信会长大的。 But, yeah, I was raised a Southern Baptist.
后来我成为神召会的青年牧师。 I later became a youth pastor in the Assemblies of God.
我曾是吉米·斯瓦加圣经学院的学生。 I was a student at Jimmy Swaggart Bible College.
事实上，马特，你知道，我在天主教答疑的归信故事叫「吉米·斯瓦加让我成为天 主教徒」，因为我确实是在路易斯安那州巴吞鲁日的JSBC时归信了公教会。 In fact, as you know, Matt, my conversion story here at Catholic Answers is called "Jimmy Swaggart Made Me Catholic" because I really did convert to the Catholic faith while I was at JSBC in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
所以马利亚对我来说是最大的障碍。 So Mary was the greatest obstacle for me.
最大的——怎么说？ The greatest—how so?
所以你开始理解你所看到的某些公教会教导，以及最早的基督徒所说的。 So you started to kind of wrap your mind around what certain Catholic teachings you saw, what the earliest Christians had to say.
是的，你知道吗？ Yeah, you know what?
让我想想，因为我最近一直在思考这个。 Let me check that because I would—I’ve been thinking about this recently.
事实上，我会说在前十个原因中，因为没有一个单一的原因让我不是公教会的。 In fact, because I would say of the top ten, because there wasn't one reason why I wasn't Catholic.
我觉得公教会简直疯了。 I thought the Catholic Church was just crazy.
怎么会有头脑正常的人是公教会的呢？ How could anybody that has a brain that works be Catholic?
我对公教会有很多问题，但在我的前十个原因中…… I had so many problems with the Catholic Church, but of my top ten...
我得说马利亚的教义占了其中六个。 I would have to say that Marian doctrines made up about six of those ten.
但我得说我不是公教会的首要原因是圣餐。 But I would have to say the number one reason I wasn't Catholic was the Eucharist.
我认为那是偶像崇拜，疯狂，对我来说毫无意义。 I thought that was idolatry, insanity, made absolutely no sense to me.
但在那之后，肯定是无原罪始胎和被提升天。 But after that, definitely the Immaculate Conception, the Assumption.
我的意思是，对我来说，无原罪始胎——「都犯了罪」，兄弟，你不明白「都」的哪部分？ I mean, to me, the Immaculate Conception—"all of sin," dude, what part of "all" don't you know?
首先，被提升天对我来说是最大的假设，因为没有——这就是个假设——圣经 中没有，甚至你们这些疯狂的公教徒声称热爱和珍惜的早期教父中也没有。 Number one, and the Assumption to me was the greatest assumption ever made, because there's nothing—it is an assumption—there's nothing in Scripture, there's nothing in the early Fathers even that you crazy Catholics claim to love and cherish.
至少到五世纪才有，对吧？ Nothing until at least the 5th century, right?
或者甚至六世纪，正如一些新教徒会说的。 Or even 6th century, as some Protestants would say.
是的，因为我认识很多新教徒会说，好吧，我几乎能 同意你关于圣餐的说法，尤其是当我看早期教会时。 Yeah, because I know a lot of Protestants who say, okay, I can almost get on board with what you're saying about the Eucharist, especially when I look at the early church.
当你读约翰福音第六章时，至少表面上看，似乎说的是公教会一直相信的。 The fact that when you read John 6, at least prima facie, it seems to say what Catholics have always believed.
但马利亚，感觉就像——我想有很多善良的新教徒会说，看，我明白。 But Mary, it just feels like—I think there's a lot of good-hearted Protestants who are like, look, I get it.
她是个了不起的人。 She was a wonderful person.
我甚至可以称她为有福的，因为她说万代要称她有福。 I can even call her blessed because she said all generations will call her blessed.
但你们公教徒对她的所有说法…… But all you Catholics say about her is...
太过了。 it's over the top.
所以我在想，蒂姆，除非你想在我们开始之前说些什么，否则我想 谈谈这些事情：神的母亲，终身童贞，无原罪始胎，诸如此类。 So I was thinking, Tim, unless you wanted to say anything before we get into it, I'd love to talk about some of these things: Mother of God, perpetual virgin, immaculate conception, this sort of thing.
当然。 Absolutely.
对我来说，现在，如你所知，马特，大多数新教徒，尤其是 更传统的新教徒，至少在概念上同意马利亚是神的母亲。 For me, now, and as you know, Matt, most Protestants, certainly the more traditional Protestants, agree with us, at least conceptually, with regard to Mary being the Mother of God.
在福音派和基要派中——哦，那是不行的。 Among evangelicals, fundamentalists—oh, it's a no-go.
但现在，我们更传统的新教徒不理解其中的含义，马利亚是神的 母亲这一事实所带来的后果，但他们至少承认耶稣基督是神。 But again, now, our more traditional Protestants don't understand the ramifications involved, what follows from the fact that Mary is the Mother of God, but they would at least acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God.
马利亚是耶稣的母亲。 Mary is the Mother of Jesus.
这个三段论是无懈可击的。 This syllogism is airtight.
因此，必然得出结论，马利亚是神的母亲。 It follows, necessarily, Mary is the Mother of God.
但我是在一个教导像吉米·斯瓦加在他的书《天主教与基督教 》中那样的传统中长大的，沃尔特·马丁博士，你的一些新教 徒追随者或观众可能还记得七八十年代的沃尔特·马丁博士。 But I was raised, Matt, in a tradition that taught, like Jimmy Swaggart in his book "Catholicism vs. Christianity," Dr. Walter Martin, who some of your followers or watchers here who are Protestant probably remember Dr. Walter Martin at the time way back in the 70s and 80s.
他可能是当时世界上最受欢迎的新教护教学者，至少在美国是这 样，沃尔特·马丁博士是著名的反对马利亚为神的母亲的人。 He was probably the most popular Protestant apologist in the world, certainly in the United States, and Dr. Walter Martin was a famous opponent of Mary as Mother of God.
我对马利亚作为神的母亲的问题是，你们似乎把马利亚当作神了。 And the problem I had with Mary as Mother of God is you seem to be making a God out of Mary.
因为，你看，我们知道耶稣是神的原因之一，或方式之一，是他将自己启示为神的儿子。 Because, look, one of the reasons why, or one of the ways we know Jesus is God is he reveals himself as the Son of God.
神爱世人，甚至将他的…… For God so loved the world that he gave his...
独生子，monogenes。 only begotten Son, monogenes.
他是唯一本性上的儿子。 He is the only Son by nature.
当然，天使是因参与而为子。 Of course, angels are sons by participation.
我们是因收养和参与而为子。 We are sons by adoption as well as participation.
但唯有耶稣被启示为本性上的儿子，在那启示中，当然…… But Jesus alone is revealed to be Son by nature, and in that revelation, then of course...
他被启示为神。 he is revealed as God.
当然，作为基督徒，我们都同意这一点。 And of course, we all agree as Christians on that point.
所以，马特，我记得我心里想，当他们说马利亚 是神的母亲时，你实际上就是在说马利亚是神。 And so, Matt, in my mind, I can remember thinking, when they say Mary's the Mother of God, you are ipso facto necessarily saying Mary is God.
因为狗生狗。 Because a dog gives birth to a dog.
猫生猫。 Cat, cat.
人生人。 Human, human.
神生神。 God, God.
你就有了四位一体。 You've got a quadrinity.
这对我来说是个大问题，我保证现在听的人中也有人有这个问题。 And that was a huge problem for me, and I'll guarantee you some folks listening right now have that problem as well.
对。 Right.
我想有些人会说，好吧，如果你说马利亚是神的母亲，你就是在说她是他神性的源头。 I think some people would say, okay, if you say Mary is the Mother of God, you're saying that she's the source of his divinity.
所以我认识的很多新教徒，至少有些人想说，好吧，她生了人性。 And so a lot of Protestants I know, some of them at least, want to say, okay, well, she gave birth to the human nature.
你对此怎么说？ What do you say to that?
对，对。 Right, right.
你知道，这让我想起，其实在我的书《看哪，你的母亲》中，我知 道你以前读过并记住了，坦率地说，这是我读过的关于马利亚和公 教会对她看法的护教书籍中最好的一本，事实上，不，是最好的。 You know, this reminds me, in fact, in my book, Behold Your Mother, which I know you've read and memorized before, it's honestly one of the best, probably the best book, in fact, nay, the best book I've read on apologetics as it pertains to Mary and what Catholics think of it.
真的，真的很好。 Really, really good.
好吧，我待会儿付你钱。 Okay, I'll pay you later.
谢谢。 Thank you.
在《看哪，你的母亲》中，我在那里指出，多年前…… In Behold Your Mother, I make the point there, years ago...
天哪，我不敢相信那是1986年，马特。 oh my gosh, I can't believe that was 1986, Matt.
这意味着我正式老了。 That means I'm officially old.
我那时三岁。 I was three.
继续。 Continue.
但有一次辩论，我很兴奋，因为我正处于天主教研究的热潮中。 But there was a debate, and I was excited because I was in the midst of really the throes of my Catholic studies.
在我海军陆战队的最后一年，我遇到了我的朋友，马特·杜勒中士。 In my final year in the Marine Corps, I had met my buddy, Sergeant Matt Duller.
对于那些不知道的人，这是让我开始走向…… For those of you who don't know, this is the guy that got me started toward...
呃…… uh...
罗马的人，我们在讨论，我听说，哦，天哪，沃尔特·马丁博士要和 这个疯狂的耶稣会士米奇·帕克瓦神父辩论，那时我从未听说过他。 Rome, and we were going at it, and I hear, oh my goodness, Dr. Walter Martin's going to debate this crazy Jesuit, Father Mitch Pacwa, who I'd never heard of at this time.
他只是个年轻人，刚从二十一年的修道院出来——字面上，他在修道院待了二十一年。 He was just a young buck, just out of twenty-one years of the seminary—literally, he was in the seminary for twenty-one years.
帕克瓦神父，那时没人真正认识他，但他与沃尔特·马丁辩论，在那次辩论中，沃尔特·马 丁，他的书《异端之王》我读过，吞噬过，记住了——我实际上读了好几遍，现在还留着。 Father Pacwa, nobody really knew him back then, but he debated Walter Martin, and in that debate, Walter Martin, whose book The King of the Cults I had read and devoured and memorized—I read it actually multiple times, still have it.
他在与帕克瓦神父的辩论中提出了这个观点。 He makes this very point in the debate with Father Pacwa.
他说，看，如果你接受这个三段论：耶稣是神，马利亚是耶稣的母亲，因此— —耶稣是神，马利亚是耶稣的母亲，因此马利亚是神的母亲——那么你就得说 ，神是三位一体，马利亚是神的母亲，因此马利亚是三位一体的母亲，伙计。 He says, look, if you accept this syllogism: Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, therefore—Jesus is God, Mary is the Mother of Jesus, therefore Mary is the Mother of God—well then you have to then say, God is Trinity, Mary is the Mother of God, therefore Mary is the Mother of the Trinity, pal.
对吧？ Right?
我心想，是啊，回答这个吧，你这个疯狂的耶稣会士，对吧？ And I'm going, yeah, answer that, you crazy Jesuit, right?
当然，帕克瓦神父只是冷静地回应说，看，你那个三段论无效，伙计。 And, of course, Father Pacwa just calmly responds and says, look, you have an invalid syllogism there, pal.
你在术语上含糊其辞。 You're equivocating on terms.
当你说神是三位一体…… When you say God is Trinity...
这是一个真实的命题。 that is a true proposition.
所以你的三段论失败了，因为神是三位一体，但马利亚作为神的 母亲，并不是三位一体的母亲，因为圣父和圣灵没有道成肉身。 And so your syllogism fails because, yes, God is Trinity, but Mary, being the Mother of God, is not the Mother of the Trinity because the Father and the Holy Spirit were not incarnate.
只有圣三位中的第二位道成肉身。 It was only the second person of the Blessed Trinity who was incarnate.
我得告诉你，马特，这就像是第一步。 And I have to tell you, Matt, this was like a first step.
这对我来说有道理，我心想，哇，他击破了沃尔特·马丁的三段论。 It made sense to me, and I'm going, wow, he blew away Walter Martin's syllogism there.
但他仍然没有回答问题，因为马丁仍然反驳说， 好吧，即使我说，好吧，也许我这里有点偏差。 But he still didn't answer the question because Martin still had the comeback that, okay, well, even if I say, okay, maybe I was a little bit off here.
但圣三位中的第二位仍有神性。 Still, the second person of the Blessed Trinity has a divine nature.
所以如果你说马利亚是圣三位中第二位的母亲，你仍然是在说她是神性的源头。 So if you say Mary is the Mother of the second person of the Blessed Trinity, you're still saying she's the source of divinity.
我告诉你，沃尔特·马丁在这场辩论中被驳倒了，我这个观看的蒂姆· 斯台普斯也是，当帕克瓦神父用一个简单的人类婚姻和生育的比喻时。 And I'll tell you, Walter Martin got torched in this debate, and so did Tim Staples who was watching it, when Father Pacwa used just a simple analogy of a human being—marriage and childbirth.
你知道的，马特，这当时震撼了我的世界。 And as you know, Matt, and man, this rocked my world back then.
我不喜欢我在这里错了这个事实。 I didn't like the fact, you know, that I was wrong here.
但他说，看，想想看。 But he says, look, think about it.
爸爸妈妈在一起，结婚，然后他们有了孩子。 Mom, dad get together, get married, and they have a baby.
好吧，现在我就用我妻子和我的第一个儿子蒂米来举例。 All right, now I'll use just for our conversation, Matt, my wife and my first son, Timmy.
现在，当我妻子怀上蒂米时，我们会说我妻子和我是我儿子灵魂的源头吗？ Now, when my wife conceived Timmy in her womb, would we say that my wife and I were the source of the human soul of my son?
不会。当然，我们说不会，因为我们不是灵魂遗传论者，对吧？ No. And, of course, we say no, because we're not traditionists, right?
不会。显然不会。 No. Obviously not.
好吧，等一下。 Well, wait a minute.
这是否意味着，在蒂姆余生中，他应该对他母亲说，「你好，我身体的母亲」？ Does that mean, then, that for the rest of Tim's life, should this mean the rest of his life he should be saying to his mother, "Hello, mother of my body?"
当然不是。 Of course not.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
因为即使瓦尔和我，我妻子和我，只是身体的源头…… Because even though Val and I, my wife and I, are only the source of the body...
从身体上说，那是我们给儿子的。 physically speaking, that's what we gave to our son.
我妻子没有生下一个身体。 My wife didn't give birth to a body.
她甚至没有生下一个本性。 She didn't even give birth to a nature.
她生下的是一个有身体和灵魂的人。 She gave birth to a person who is a body-soul composite.
所以我们说，我们是父母。 And so we say, we are the parents.
我是父亲。 I am the father.
她是蒂米的母亲。 She is the mother of Timmy.
同样地，帕克瓦神父指出，当马利亚生下耶稣时，她生下的是一个身体吗？ Well, in the same way, Father Pacwa points out, when Mary gave birth, did she give birth to a body?
不，她没有。 No, she did not.
她没有生下一个身体。 She didn't give birth to a body.
她生下的是一个灵魂吗？ Did she give birth to a human soul?
不。即使她只是耶稣人性身体的源头，这并不意味着她不是他的母亲。 No. Even though she is only the source of the human body of Jesus, that doesn't mean she is not his mother.
对吧？ Right?
因为她没有生下一个身体。 Because she didn't give birth to a body.
她没有生下一个本性。 She didn't give birth to a nature.
她甚至没有生下两个本性。 She didn't even give birth to two natures.
她生下的是一个人。 She gave birth to a person.
这就是辩论的转折点，马特。 And this is where the debate turns, Matt.
帕克瓦神父在这里做出了一个震撼人心的联系，令我震惊。 And Father Pacwa made the devastating connection here that blew my mind.
他说，看，如果你否认马利亚是神的母亲，你就是在否认耶稣基 督位格中一个本质的东西，即耶稣基督作为神人二性的本质。 He said, look, if you deny Mary is the Mother of God, you are denying something essential about the person of Jesus Christ, the nature of Jesus Christ as the God-man.
因为你最终将耶稣分成了两个人。 Because you end up separating Jesus into two persons.
因为谁——神父问了这个问题，我在过去几十年里也问过 成千上万的新教朋友——耶稣，或者说马利亚生下了谁？ Because who did—Father had asked the question, I've asked thousands of my Protestant friends down through the last several decades—who did Jesus, or who did Mary give birth to?
谁？ Who?
是神吗？ Was it God?
很快，你知道在书中，我有一个关于多年前一次辩论的小故事。 And real quick, you know you saw in the book, I have a little anecdote in the book about a debate I had years ago.
那实际上是在一个天主教堂里。 It was actually in a Catholic church.
有大约700人在场，与一位新教牧师辩论。 There were about 700 people there at the debate with a Protestant minister.
在辩论中，我们谈到神的母亲这个问题，我问了他这些问题。 And during the debate, we got to this point on the Mother of God, and I asked him these questions.
我说，好吧，我们来简化一下。 I said, okay, well, look, let's just simplify things here.
让我问你这个。 Let me ask you this.
你相信耶稣是神吗？ Do you believe Jesus is God?
他说是的。 He said yes.
我说，你相信他在六个月大时是神吗？ I said, do you believe that he was God when he was six months old?
他说，当然。 He said, absolutely.
我心想，谢天谢地，否则我们还得多费功夫，对吧？ And I'm going, thank goodness, because we'd have more work to do, right?
好，是的。 Okay, yes.
他在六个月时是神吗？ Was he God when he was six?
在圣母马利亚腹中六个月时？ Six months in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
他反应稍慢，但还是说是的。 A little bit of a slower response, but yes.
他看出你的意图了。 He saw where you were going.
是的。 Yes.
然后我问，他从圣母马利亚腹中出来时是神吗？ And then I asked the question, was he God when he was coming out of the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary?
现场有点沉默。 And there was kind of silence.
嗯，是的。 Well, yes.
那么马利亚是神的母亲吗？ Is Mary the Mother of God?
你可以听到针掉落的声音。 You could have heard a pin drop.
整个教堂沉默了大约十秒钟。 There was silence in the whole church for about ten awkward seconds.
然后他喊道，不，她不是神的母亲。 And then he exclaimed, no, she's not the Mother of God.
我说，兄弟，我想你需要回家为此祷告一下。 And I said, brother, I think you need to go home and pray on that a little bit.
因为我想你知道，她确实是神的母亲。 Because I think you know that, yes, she is the Mother of God.
因为如果你承认耶稣基督是神人二性，那么马利亚确实是神的母亲这一事实是无法回避的。 Because if you acknowledge that Jesus Christ is the God-man, then there is no way around the fact that Mary is, in fact, the Mother of God.
这对我来说是一个巨大的进步，因为我看到了，然后我深入研究马利亚学。 And that was a huge step for me because I saw it, and then I dove in and I started studying Mariology.
我买了书，开始阅读教父们的著作，结果，我真是给自己找麻烦了。 I got books, I started reading the Fathers of the Church on it, and man, did I get myself in trouble.
所以这个教义，马利亚为神之母的教义，在某种意义上是为了 保护关于基督的某些东西，而不仅仅是关于马利亚的，对吗？ So this doctrine, this dogma of Mary being Theotokos is meant to guard something about Christ more than it is something about Mary, in a sense, right?
正是如此。 Exactly.
事实上，如果你去看——我在《看哪，你的母亲》一书中也引 用了——沃尔特·马丁博士的著名书籍，那是一本很好的书。 In fact, if you go to—and again, I quote this in my book, Behold Your Mother—Dr. Walter Martin's famous book, and it's an excellent book.
就像我说的，我读过好几遍。 Like I said, I've read it multiple times.
这是一本优秀的护教学书籍。 It's an excellent apologetics book.
书名是《异端之王》。 It's called Kingdom of the Cults.
多年来卖出了无数的册数。 It's sold bazillions of copies over the years.
沃尔特·马丁在那本书的第103页上，他是一个典型 的例子，说明否认马利亚是神的母亲会导致什么结果。 Walter Martin, on page 103 of that book, he is the classic example of what happens when you deny Mary is the Mother of God.
因为你看，马特，否认是一回事。 Because, see, it's one thing, Matt, isn't it, to deny.
否认东西很容易。 It's easy to deny stuff.
嘿，你错了，伙计。 Hey, you're wrong, man.
我不相信。 I don't believe that.
但根据你的否认建立神学是另一回事。 But it's another thing to build a theology based on your denial.
所以他说，哦，不，马利亚不是神的母亲，这是一回事。 And so it's one thing for him to say, oh, no, Mary's not the Mother of God.
那是偶像崇拜。 That's idolatry.
那是这样或那样。 That's this or that.
好吧，那么耶稣是谁？ Okay, well, then who is Jesus?
当他试图建立基督论时，他走上了与1400、 1500、1600年前的景教徒相同的道路。 When he attempts to build a Christology, he goes the same road as the Nestorians did, you know, 1,400, 1,500, 1,600 years before.
他在第103页上说了这个。我是凭记忆说的，但如果你看我 的书《看哪，你的母亲》，我在那里为你引用了全部内容。 And he says this on page 103. I'm going from memory here, but if you get my book, Behold Your Mother, I got it all quoted there for you.
他说，基本上是公教会创造了这个概念，就是马利 亚是神的母亲，这在基督论上导致了各种问题。 He says that it's the Catholics basically who created this idea, you know, Mary the Mother of God, and it leads to all sorts of problems Christologically.
但他说这是基于永恒儿子身份的谬误。 But he says it's based on a fallacy of eternal sonship.
沃尔特·马丁说，你看，圣经从未教导永恒的儿子 身份，因为儿子身份适用于时间、变化和人性。 And Walter Martin says, see, the Bible never teaches eternal sonship, because sonship applies to time and change and humanity.
所以它不能适用于神性。 So it can't apply to divinity.
公教会这样做了，他们给自己找了麻烦。 The Catholics did that, and they get themselves in trouble.
所以神不能是儿子。 So God can't be the Son.
他成为了儿子。 He became a son.
你听到了吗，马特？ Did you catch that, Matt?
他在道成肉身时成为了儿子。 He became a son in the incarnation.
一个比喻中的儿子。 A son by analogy.
如果这还不够糟糕，基本上沃尔特·马丁所做的是失去了耶稣。 And then, if that's not bad enough, because basically what Walter Martin did is he lost Jesus.
在否认马利亚是神的母亲的过程中，他失去了耶稣。 In the midst of denying Mary as the Mother of God, he lost Jesus.
但接下来，马特，他又说，我们在新约中也看不到任何地方称父为永恒的父。 But in the next breath, Matt, he then says, neither do we see anywhere in the pages of the New Testament the Father ever referred to as the Eternal Father.
因为父亲身份也适用于时间、变化，不能适用于神性。 Because fatherhood, too, applies then to time, to change, and it cannot apply to divinity.
只有希伯来书9章14节中的灵，沃尔特·马丁说被称为永远的灵。 There's only the Spirit in Hebrews 9, verse 14. Walter Martin says is referred to as the eternal Spirit.
所以神在永恒中——想象一下，马特——在永恒中，我不 得不在34年前问沃尔特·马丁博士，那么，神是谁？ So God in all eternity—imagine this, Matt—in all eternity, I had to ask the question of 34 years ago of Dr. Walter Martin, well then, who is God?
在永恒中，在创造之前，神是谁？ In all eternity, before there was a creation, who is God?
沃尔特·马丁唯一能说的是，我们不知道。 And the only thing Walter Martin could say is, we don't know.
我们知道有三个位格，但我们不知道第一位。 We know there are three persons, but we don't know the first person.
第二位是永恒的道，因为约翰福音1章说，太初有道，道与神同在，道就是神。 The second person is the eternal Word, because John 1, in the beginning it was the Word, the Word was with God, the Word was God.
第三位是圣灵。 And the third person is the Holy Spirit.
天哪，马特，在否认马利亚是神的母亲的过程中，沃尔特·马丁最终失去了耶 稣，现在他失去了耶稣来这世上的一个核心原因，就是要启示神在他永恒内在 生命中的本相：圣父、圣子、圣灵，约翰福音17章的大祭司祷告，马特。 My goodness, Matt, in the midst of denying Mary as the Mother of God, Walter Martin ended up losing Jesus, and now he's lost one of the central reasons why Jesus came to this earth, and that is to reveal God as he is in his inner life from all eternity: Father, Son, Holy Spirit, the great high priestly prayer of John 17, Matt.
我的意思是，父啊，现在求你使我同你享荣耀，就是未有世界以先我同你所有的荣耀。 I mean, Father, glorify thou me with the glory I had with thee before the world was.
父啊，我已将你的名显明给他们，还要显明。 Father, I have revealed your name and I will reveal it again.
什么名？ What name?
父。 Father.
我的意思是，这太震撼了。 I mean, this was devastating.
我无法用言语表达，马特，当我意识到，天哪，我们作为新教徒 ，我们这些好的浸信会和五旬节派，在否认马利亚是神的母亲的 过程中，最终变成了景教徒；我们最终在基督里创造了两个人。 I can't even put it into words, Matt, how devastating this was to me when I realized, oh my goodness, we as Protestants, we good Baptists and Pentecostals, in the midst of denying Mary's the Mother of God, we end up Nestorian; we end up creating two persons in Christ.
最终甚至——在书中我引用了埃里克·斯文森博士，他在否 认马利亚是神的母亲时，对耶稣基督有一个更疯狂的看法。 And ultimately even—and in the book I quote Dr. Eric Svensson, who has an even crazier idea of who Jesus Christ is in his denial of Mary, the Mother of God.
这太重要了。 And this is so important.
我想说，马特，我在《看哪，你的母亲》一书中最重要的贡献可能 是，我试图展示每一个马利亚教义如何对我们的灵命至关重要。 Probably, I would say, Matt, the most important contribution I make in my book, Behold Your Mother, is I tried to show how each one of the Marian doctrines is crucial for our spiritual lives.
它们对我们的救恩至关重要，让我们知道神是谁。 They're crucial for our salvation, for us to know who God is.
认识你独一的真神，并且认识你所差来的耶稣基督，这就是永生。 This is eternal life, that they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
正是在认识马利亚中，我们得以认识——正如你早些时候所说 ，马利亚抵挡那些削弱她儿子或圣父、圣子、圣灵的异端。 It's in knowing Mary that we come to know—and as you said earlier, Mary defends against heresies that would diminish her Son's or Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
而神之母就是一个经典例子，如果你在马利亚上错了，你最终会在耶稣和神上也错了。 And Theotokos is the classic example that if you miss it on Mary, you're going to end up missing it on Jesus and missing it on God.
这太好了。 That's excellent.
我想在这一点上，我能听到一个新教徒说，好吧，技术上讲这是真 的，但我们仍然不应该使用这种语言，因为它不必要地让人困惑。 I think at this point I could hear a Protestant saying, okay, technically it's true, but we still shouldn't use the language because it confuses people unnecessarily.
但对我来说，这就像有人说，看，当我们向穆斯林朋友传福音时，不要谈论神是三位一体。 But to me, that's like somebody saying, look, when we evangelize our Muslim friends, don't talk about God as Trinity.
也许技术上讲这是真的，但我们不想让人困惑。 Maybe technically it's true, but we don't want to confuse people.
换句话说，我们要按事物的本相来谈论。 In other words, the point is we want to talk about things as they are.
即使它们让人困惑，那也是我们可以在事后澄清的。 And even if they confuse people, well, that's something we can try and clear up after the fact.
你知道，马特，美妙的是，在我通向公教信仰的旅程中，开始时——我很害怕。 And you know, the beautiful thing, Matt, is in my own odyssey to the Catholic faith, it started—I was petrified.
当我开始看到这样的真理和我们可以谈论的许多其他真理时，我很害怕。 When I started to see truths like this and so many others we could talk about, I was petrified.
我不想要它。 I didn't want it.
我的意思是，我想成为一个五旬节派教会的牧师。 I mean, I wanted to be a pastor of a Pentecostal church.
伙计，我在找一个会弹钢琴的漂亮妻子。 Man, I was looking for a good-looking wife that plays piano.
伙计，我不想要这个。 Man, I don't want this.
这是一件可怕的事。 And it was a fearful thing.
但一旦你深入其中，你就开始看到联系。 But what happens is once you dive in, you start seeing connections.
你开始看到那神学。 You start seeing that theology.
我想是弗兰克·希德说过，神学像交响乐一样运作。 I think it was Frank Sheed who said theology works like a symphony.
这太真实了，因为一切最终都是相连的，因为真理不仅仅是一个概念；它是一个人。 And it is so true because everything is connected ultimately because truth is not just a concept; it's a person.
耶稣说：「我就是道路、真理、生命。」 Jesus said, "I am the truth."
我不仅讲述真理；我就是真理。 I don't just speak truth; I am the truth.
好吧，我能看到一个新教徒说，好吧，她是神的母亲，明白 了，但并不觉得他们需要相信关于马利亚的其他任何东西。 Okay, so I can see a Protestant saying, okay, fine, she's the Mother of God, got it, and not really feeling like they need to believe anything else about Mary.
那么让我们谈谈第二个教义，马利亚的终身童贞。 So let's talk about that second dogma, Mary being a perpetual virgin.
圣经提到她有兄弟，即使你能解释清楚，为什么你仍然觉得有必要捍卫她的童贞呢？ The Bible speaks about her having brothers, and even if you can explain that away, why do you feel the need to defend her virginity anyway?
这为什么如此重要？ Why is that so important?
是的。 Yes.
你知道，我记得读过，愿神祝福我的朋友马特·杜拉，他早期就挑战了我。 You know, I can remember reading, and God bless my buddy Matt Dula who challenged me early on.
他说，蒂姆，我注意到你引用吉米·斯瓦加、沃尔特· 马丁和诺曼·盖斯勒，你引用了很多新教护教学者。 He said, Tim, I notice you quote Jimmy Swaggart and Walter Martin and Norman Geisler, and you quote a lot of Protestant apologists.
你读过教父们的著作吗？ Have you read the Church Fathers before?
我说，我想我读过一些零星的引言。 And I said, well, I think I've read a few quotes here and there.
你知道，我想我读过一句…… You know, I think I read one quote from...
不，我是说，你读过教父们的著作吗？ No, I mean, have you read the Church Fathers?
或者你读过任何公教信仰的文献吗？ Or have you ever read any documents of the Catholic faith?
你知道，马特，让我惊讶的是，作为新教徒，我非常热衷于护教学。 And you know what was amazing to me, Matt, is whenever, as a Protestant, I was very much into apologetics.
当我研究摩门教时，我读摩门教的文献。 When I studied Mormonism, I read Mormon documents.
当我研究耶和华见证人时，我读了《通向永生的真理》这本书。 When I studied Jehovah's Witnesses, I read the book, The Truth That Leads to Eternal Life.
我阅读，但对公教会，我就没有这样做。 I read, but with Catholics, I just didn't do that.
他挑战了我。 He challenged me.
他实际上给了我书让我读，我开始读了。 He actually gave me the books to read, and I started to read them.
让我惊讶的是，当你阅读我们拥有的最早的教父时，因为如你所知，马利亚的终身童 贞是教会的教父们一致教导的，从我们拥有的一些最早的文献《雅各原福音》开始。 And what was amazing to me is when you read the earliest Fathers we have, because as you know, the perpetual virginity of Mary is taught unanimously by the Fathers of the Church from some of the earliest documents we have, the Proto-Evangelium of James.
事实上，这就是它在公元120到140年间写成的 核心原因之一——是为了证明马利亚的终身童贞。 In fact, that's one of the central reasons why it was written in about 120 to 140 A.D.—was demonstrating the perpetual virginity of Mary.
让我惊讶的是，马特，第一次对马利亚终身童贞的严重否认。 And what was amazing to me, Matt, is the first serious rejection of Mary's perpetual virginity.
除了特土良，你知道，我喜欢，正如你的一些听众可能知道的，当赫尔维迪 乌斯，他基本上是第一个认真——还有另一个叫博尼苏斯的人被安波罗削弱 ——赫尔维迪乌斯是被圣耶柔米驳斥的，他提出马利亚可能有其他孩子。 Now, other than Tertullian, you know, and I love, as some of your listeners may know, when Helvidius, who was basically the first serious—there was another fellow by the name of Bonissus who Ambrose took apart—Helvidius was the one that St. Jerome took apart who posited the possibility of Mary having other children.
教父们对他们大发雷霆。 The Fathers went nutso on them.
我的意思是，这是愤怒。 I mean, it was outrage.
圣埃皮法尼乌斯很生气。 St. Epiphanius was angry.
圣耶柔米说，你怎么敢这样假设？ St. Jerome, how dare you posit?
谁，随便。 Who, whatever.
好吧，赫尔维迪乌斯用的一个人是特土良，因为特土良是第一 个否认马利亚终身童贞的基督徒，但那是在他成为异端之后。 Well, one guy Helvidius used was Tertullian because Tertullian was the first Christian to deny Mary's perpetual virginity, but it was after he had become a heretic.
所以圣耶柔米在他反对赫尔维迪乌斯的作品中有一句话说，当赫尔维迪乌 斯提到特土良时，他说，至于特土良，我只需要说他不是教会的儿子。 And so St. Jerome, in one line in his work against Helvidius, he says, when Helvidius brings Tertullian up, he says, as far as Tertullian goes, the only thing I need to say is he was not a son of the Church.
他是个异端，所以让我们谈点严肃的事。 He was a heretic, so let's go on to something serious.
但这很重要，马特，所有基督徒都同意这一点。 But that's significant, Matt, that all Christians agreed with this.
这不仅仅是神学的问题。 This was something that was not just a matter of theology.
这是历史。 It was history.
首先，这是一个在全世界所有基督教团体中都知道的历史事实。 This was a historical fact that was known in all the Christian communities all around the world, number one.
那么，这为什么如此重要？ Now, why is that so important?
在圣耶柔米的回应中，正如我在书中指出的，耶柔米提到了 一些原因，为什么这如此重要，那就是马利亚成为约柜。 Well, in St. Jerome's response, as I point out in my book, Jerome gets at some of the reasons why this is so important, and that is that Mary becomes the Ark of the Covenant.
正如圣耶柔米所说，神的殿。 As St. Jerome says, the temple of God.
事实上，耶柔米指出，圣约瑟完全知道他与谁同住。 In fact, Jerome makes the point that St. Joseph knew full and well who he was living with.
她是为特定目的奉献给神的，正如我在书中指出的，你从旧约、新 约中学到的，每当某物或某人为特定目的奉献给神时，将其用于其 他任何目的对神的旧约子民和新约子民来说都是不可想象的。 She was consecrated to God for a specific purpose, and this is something, as I point out in the book, you learn Old Testament, New Testament, whenever something or someone is consecrated to God for a particular purpose, to use it or he or she for any other purpose was unthinkable to the people, Old Covenant people of God as well as New Covenant people of God.
事实上，亵渎或将某物用于其他目的的惩罚往往是死亡。 In fact, the punishment was often death for sacrilege or using something for another purpose.
所以，在道成肉身时，圣耶柔米说，当她为将神带入世 界而奉献给圣灵时，想到圣约瑟触碰她是不可思议的。 And so, at the Incarnation, St. Jerome says, when she becomes consecrated to the Holy Spirit for the purpose of bringing God into the world, to think of St. Joseph touching her is an outrage.
你在开玩笑吗？ Are you kidding me?
现在，我们需要进入细节，因为我们可以提出关于约柜的各种伟大事物， 任何触碰约柜的人都会死，但我知道我的新教朋友会说，好吧，对不起， 我不能走那条路，因为马太福音13:55清楚地告诉我们耶稣有兄弟。 Now, we need to get into the particulars, though, because we can bring up all kinds of great stuff about the Ark of the Covenant, and anybody who touches the Ark is dead meat and all of that, but I know my Protestant friends are saying, okay, I'm sorry, I can't go down that road there, because Matthew 13:55 plainly tells us that Jesus has brothers.
所以也许我们应该谈谈这个。 So maybe we should go there.
当然，我们来谈谈。 Sure, let's do it.
是的。 Yeah.
我们还应该指出，新教改革者在这个教义上是支持你的。 We should also point out the fact that the Protestant reformers were on your side when it comes to this doctrine.
天哪，加尔文、路德、慈运理。 Oh my goodness, John Calvin, Martin Luther, Zwingli.
甚至200年后，约翰和查尔斯·卫斯理也是马利亚终身童贞的捍卫者。 Even 200 years later, John and Charles Wesley were defenders of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
是的，还有很多我们可以谈的。 But, yeah, and there's so much more we could get to.
事实上，在我的书中，我给出了八个圣经理由说明马利亚是终身童贞。 In fact, in my book, I give you eight biblical reasons why Mary is a perpetual virgin.
当你深入研究时，真的很美。 And it's really beautiful when you dive in.
不，其实，我为无原罪始胎给了八个理由。 No, actually, I give eight for the Immaculate Conception.
我为终身童贞给了七个理由。 I give seven for the perpetual virginity.
但重点是这个。 But the point is this.
对我来说，我有这个问题，但马太福音13:55怎么解 释？我们有主的兄弟，名叫雅各、约瑟、西门和犹大。 For me, I had the problem, but what about Matthew 13:55? We have the brothers of the Lord named, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas.
你有主的四个兄弟。 You've got four brothers of the Lord.
所以如果主有兄弟，那就意味着马利亚有其他孩子——无懈可击的论点，对吧？ So if the Lord has brothers, that means Mary had other children—airtight argument, right?
事实上，不是的。 Well, in fact, no, it is not.
因为兄弟这个词，马特，你知道，在一世纪的犹太教中有非 常广泛的语义范围，无论是希伯来语、亚兰语还是希腊语。 Because brothers, as you know, Matt, had a very wide semantic range in first-century Judaism, whether we're talking about Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek.
事实上，在希伯来文化中，这可能源于希伯来语和亚兰语中都没有表兄弟这个词。 In fact, in Hebrew culture, this probably is born out of the fact that in both Hebrew and Aramaic, they didn't have a word for cousin.
事实上，通常用一种迂回的说法，比如「他父亲兄 弟的儿子」，来表示表兄弟，但这变得很麻烦。 In fact, it was common to use, say, a circumlocution, right, "his father's brother's son," to get at cousin, but that becomes cumbersome.
所以几个世纪以来，你就直接说兄弟，就像我们在美国的非裔朋友一样。 And so over the centuries, you just say brother, kind of like our African-American friends here in the United States.
「嘿，兄弟。」 "Hey, brother."
这并不意味着你们都是同一个妈妈生的，对吧？ That doesn't mean you're all from the same mama, right?
事情就是这样，以至于亲戚被称为兄弟姐妹。 Well, that's kind of the way it happens, so much so that that idea of relatives being brothers and sisters.
例如，在创世记第19章，我们看到罗得和亚伯 拉罕，虽然他们是叔侄关系，但他们互称兄弟。 For example, in Genesis chapter 19, we see Lot and Abraham, even though they are uncle and nephew by relation, they call each other brother.
为什么？ Why?
这是他们语言中根深蒂固的文化现象。 This is a cultural thing rooted in their language.
所以当你读到福音书时，比如马太福音13:55，主的兄弟实际上是表 兄弟或某种亲戚，被称为兄弟也就不足为奇了，因为他们就是这样说的。 And so when you get to the Gospels, like Matthew 13:55, it's no wonder that brothers of the Lord that are actually cousins or some sort of relative are referred to as brothers because that's the way they spoke.
当然，在希腊语中，如你所知，马可福音4章10 节用「anepsios」表示马可的表兄弟。 Now, of course, in Greek, as you know, Mark 4, verse 10 uses "anepsios" for the cousin of Mark.
希腊语确实有表兄弟这个词。 Greek did have a word for cousin.
但这样想，马特。 But think of it this way, Matt.
犹太人写作和说话都有犹太口音，对吧？ The Jews wrote and spoke with a Jewish accent, right?
他们深受亚兰语影响，亚兰语没有这个词，这就是他们这样说话的原因。 They very much were steeped in Aramaic, which did not have the term, and this is why they spoke that way.
好消息是，你实际上可以从圣经文本中指出这一点，这是我以前没有看到的。 And the good news is you can actually point this out from the text of Scripture, which I had not seen before.
我的公教朋友对我说，好吧，蒂姆，我们来看看。 My Catholic friend leveled me with, he says, okay, Tim, let's go.
注意马太福音13:55，顺便说一下，《公教会教理》第500条指出 ，主的这些兄弟，雅各、约瑟、西门和犹大，前两个在马太福音27:5 6中再次被提到。你有雅各和约瑟，但这次他们的母亲再次被提到。 Notice in Matthew 13:55, and by the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church points this out in paragraph 500, that the same brothers of the Lord, James, Joseph, Simon, and Judas, the first two are mentioned again in Matthew 27:56. You have James and Joseph, but this time their mama is mentioned again.
顺便说一下，她的名字是马利亚，但不是神的母亲。 And by the way, her name is Mary, but not the Mother of God.
如果你参考约翰福音19章，很多人相信，我也认为她是马利亚的姐妹，革罗罢的马利亚。 If you cross-reference to John 19, at any rate, many believe, and I argue that it's Mary's sister, Mary of Cleopas.
但关键是，母亲被提到，而不是马利亚。 But the bottom line is, the mama is mentioned, and it ain't Mary.
这告诉你，主的兄弟不是同母兄弟，而是某种亲戚关系。 And that tells you that the brothers of the Lord are not uterine brothers, but they are some sort of relation.
还有很多，但让我只给你一个例子。 There's a lot more, but let me just give you one.
你知道，我可以一直说下去。 I could go forever, as you know.
让我再给你一个例子，因为约翰·加尔文甚至承认这一点，在加拉太书1章 19节，圣保罗谈到上耶路撒冷，基本上是为了得到彼得和使徒们的认可。 Let me just give you one more example, because John Calvin even acknowledged this, that in Galatians 1, verse 19, St. Paul talks about going up to Jerusalem, basically to get approval from Peter and the apostles.
这是他归信三年之后。 And this was three years after he had converted.
现在他在多年后写到这件事。 And now he's writing about it years later.
他说，「十四年后，我上了耶路撒冷。」 He says, "14 years ago, I went up to Jerusalem.".
这又是为了得到那些在他之前成为使徒的人的认可。 And again, this is kind of to get approval of the apostles who were apostles before him.
他说，我上去见彼得。 And he says, I went up to see Peter.
你为什么要上去见彼得？ Why would you go up to see Peter?
他是去见领袖。 He's going up to see the boss.
他去见彼得，我在那里，除了主的兄弟雅各，我没有见到别的使徒。 He goes up to see Peter, and while I was there, none other of the apostles did I see except James, the Lord's brother.
约翰·加尔文指出，只有两个雅各是使徒。 John Calvin points out that there are only two Jameses that are apostles.
只有两个。 Only two.
显然，他不是指宽泛意义上的使徒，如使徒行传 14:14中的巴拿巴，因为他是去见领袖。 And obviously, he's referring not to apostle in a looser sense, as Barnabas in Acts 14:14 is referred to as an apostle, because he's talking about going up to see the bosses.
这是十四年前的事。 And this is 14 years ago.
他是去得到这些大人物的认可。 These are the big guys he's going up to get approval from.
我在那里，只见到彼得，还有主的兄弟雅各。 And while I'm there, I saw none other than Peter, but none other than James, the Lord's brother.
正如约翰·加尔文指出的，有两个雅各是使徒。 Well, as John Calvin points out, there are two Jameses that are apostles.
第一个的父亲名叫西庇太。 The first one's dad is named Zebedee.
我们知道不是他，因为他在使徒行传12章中很早就被斩首了。所以不会是他。 Now, we know it's not him because he was beheaded very early in Acts 12. So, it wouldn't be him.
那么，让我们看看。 Well, let's see here.
二减一等于一。 Two minus one is one.
所以，只剩下一个。 And so, there's only one left.
根据路加福音6章15至16节，他被称为亚勒腓的儿子雅各。 And he is, according to Luke 6, verses 15 and 16, he is called James, the son of Alphaeus.
所以无论你怎么说亚勒腓，他都不是约瑟。 And so whatever you want to say about Alphaeus, he ain't Joseph.
那么我们有什么呢？ And so what do we have?
我们再次有证据表明，这位主的兄弟不是耶稣的同母兄弟。 We have evidence, once again, that this brother of the Lord is not Jesus' uterine brother.
他是某种亲戚。 He is a relative of some sort.
如果你看我的书，我深入探讨了优西比乌，探讨了历史，显示了无懈可 击的证据，当然，这些主的兄弟是表兄弟，某种亲戚，不是同母兄弟。 And if you get into my book, I get into Eusebius, I get into history that shows also airtight evidence that, of course, these brothers of the Lord are cousins, some sort of relatives, not uterine brothers.
所以，好吧，也许你可以把这些结合起来，表明公教会的立场和圣经并不矛盾，对吧？ So, okay, maybe you can gel this together to show that the Catholic position and Scripture aren't inconsistent, right?
但我仍然在挣扎。 But I'm still struggling.
我能看到一些新教听众仍在挣扎，为什么这如此必要。 I can see some Protestant listeners still struggling with why it's so necessary.
我的意思是，除了你说她是奉献给神的，因此以其他方式使用她是不可想象的，对吧？ I mean, other than the fact that you say she's consecrated unto God, therefore to use her in another way would be unthinkable, right?
但也许这只是我现代的思维方式，我看不出这有什么问题。 But maybe that's just kind of my modern mindset that I don't see the problem with that.
我想有些人看这个，会觉得你似乎在贬低性行为。 I think some people look at that and they think, it sounds like you're denigrating the sexual act.
是不是因为性是肮脏的，所以马利亚不会参与性行为？ Is it because sex is dirty that Mary wouldn't have engaged in sex?
问题是什么？ What's the problem?
对，是的。 Right, yes.
这涉及到关于独身的一个非常重要的点。 And this gets to a very important point with regard to celibacy.
事实上，在我的书中，我有一整章讨论这个。 In fact, in my book, I have a whole chapter on it.
它叫做「大事」。 It's called The Big Deal.
我这样做是因为这对我来说是个大问题。 I did this because that was such a big issue with me.
我有一整章讨论这个，「大事」，为什么马利亚的终身童贞很重要。 I have a whole chapter on it, The Big Deal, why the perpetual virginity of Mary matters.
这就是它重要的一个巨大原因。 And here is a huge reason why it matters.
因为如果你否认，就像我们看到的神的母亲马利亚，如果 你否认，再次，否认很容易，但你必须建立一些东西。 Because if you deny, just as we saw with Mary, the Mother of God, if you deny, once again, it's easy to deny, but then you've got to build something.
如果你否认马利亚是终身童贞，那么你对婚姻说了什么？ If you deny Mary is perpetual virgin, then what are you saying about marriage?
你对耶稣降生在这个世界上说了什么？ What are you saying about Jesus being born into this world?
他真的是在非婚生下的吗？ Was he really conceived out of wedlock?
我们真的想这样说吗？ Do we really want to say that?
许多新教徒确实这样认为。 Many Protestants do.
事实上，不久前我在网上看到一位新教徒，他有一个非常热情的事工 ，贞洁事工，他谈到我们不应评判他人，因为你看马利亚，对吧？ In fact, I was online not long ago, and there was a Protestant who has a very passionate ministry, chastity ministry, and, you know, talking about how we're not judgmental and such because, I mean, look at Mary, right?
她是在非婚情况下怀孕的。 She conceived out of wedlock.
其实，她并没有。 Well, actually, she did not.
事实是，马利亚和约瑟——这让我惊讶，人们竟然不知道这一点，马特—— 不仅是新教徒，许多我的公教会朋友也不知道，马利亚和约瑟已经结婚了。 The fact is, Mary and Joseph—and this is, I find amazingly, people just don't know this, Matt—not just Protestants, but many of my Catholic friends, that Mary and Joseph were already married.
他们有我们所说的正式婚约。 They had what we would call a ratified union.
希腊文本说他们是许了婚，对吧？ They were betrothed, the Greek text says, right?
在天使来之前。 Before the angel gave.
事实上，他被称为与马利亚许婚，或马利亚许婚，是在天使告诉她将成为神的母亲之前。 In fact, he's called betrothed to Mary, or Mary is betrothed before the angel gives her the message that she is to be the Mother of God.
现在，许婚——不幸的是，在一些现代圣经中，他们把它翻译为订婚。 Now, betrothed—unfortunately, in some of the modern Bibles, they translate it as engaged.
两千年前没有订婚这种事。 There was no such thing as engaged 2,000 years ago.
那时不存在。 That did not exist.
只有许婚。 There was betrothal.
在许婚后，就有权利同房。 And at the betrothal, the man would have the right to the marriage bed.
但在古代以色列有一个传统，我发现许多新教朋友写过，但没 有联系到这里，就是在许婚时，男子要去为新娘建造房屋。 But there was a tradition in ancient Israel, which I find many of my Protestant friends write about, but don't make the connection here, that upon the betrothal, the man was tasked with going off and basically building a house for his new bride.
他必须建好房子才能迎娶她。 And he could not receive her until he built the house.
古代以色列没有懒汉。 There were no deadbeats in ancient Israel.
你必须建造房子。 You had to build a house.
你找你的朋友。 You get your friends.
我敢打赌，马特，我会说，我会找很多朋友说，快点，因为我不能完婚直到这事完成。 And I'll bet you, Matt, I'd have been saying, no, I'd get lots of friends and say, let's hurry this up, man, because I can't consummate until we get this thing done.
所以是在建好房子之后。 And so it would be then after building the house.
顺便说一下，这就是耶稣在约翰福音14:1-6中使用的语言。「你们心里不要忧愁。 And by the way, this is the language Jesus uses in John 14:1-6. "Let not your hearts be troubled.
你们信神，也当信我。 You believe in God, believe also in me.
在我父的家里，有许多住处。 In my Father's house, there are many dwelling places.
我去原是为你们预备地方去。 I go to prepare a place for you.
我若去为你们预备了地方，就必再来接你们到我那里去，我在那里，叫你们也在那里。」 And if I go to prepare a place for you, I will come again to receive you unto myself, that where I am, there you may be.".
很贴切的语言，是吧？ Valid language, huh?
是的，这是新郎的语言。 Yeah, this is the language of the bridegroom.
他去为新娘预备地方，然后在夜间来迎娶。 He's going to prepare a place for the bride, and then he would come during the night.
我们有耶稣讲的十个童女的比喻，记得吗？ And we have Jesus giving the parable of the ten bridesmaids, remember?
是的，那些没有预备的愚拙童女。 Yeah, the foolish virgins who are not prepared.
但这里，关键是，她已经与约瑟有婚约关系，这使得马利亚在路加 福音1章34节说「我没有出嫁，怎么有这事呢？」更加重要。 But here, the bottom line is, she was already in a nuptial relationship with Joseph, and this is what makes it all the more important when Mary says in Luke chapter 1, verse 34, "How shall this be, for I know not man?"
这使得圣埃皮法尼乌斯、圣耶柔米、圣亚他拿修、圣奥古斯丁都这样说。 That makes that, you know, St. Epiphanius, St. Jerome, St. Athanasius, St. Augustine, they all say it.
这个问题除非你理解了誓愿，否则毫无意义。 The question makes no sense unless you understand the vow.
她已经立了誓愿。 She had already made the vow.
约瑟像信心之父亚伯拉罕一样行走。 Joseph is walking like Abraham, the father of faith.
我要去哪里？ Where am I going?
这里发生了什么？ What's going on here?
好吧，我要娶这个女孩，但我们不会有性行为。 All right, I'm going to marry this girl, and we're not going to have sex.
好吧，神，接下来是什么？ Okay, God, what's next?
这就是事情的经过，约瑟发现马利亚。 This is the midst of what's going on here, and Joseph discovers Mary.
我们都知道马太福音1章的故事，马利亚怀孕了，约瑟非常困扰，但他是个 义人，圣经说他决定暗暗地休了她，因为他当然不想让马利亚陷入危险。 We all know the story in Matthew 1 is pregnant, and Joseph is greatly troubled, but being a just man, the Bible says he determined to apollosai, to divorce her privately because, of course, he didn't want Mary to be in danger.
他不想这样。 He didn't want to.
而且，我相信他心里知道马利亚是多么圣洁。 And plus, I believe he would have known in his heart of hearts how holy Mary is.
他可能没有完全理解，但他知道，有事情发生。 And he may not have had full comprehension, but he's going, something's going on.
但我知道这一点。 But I know this.
申命记24:1-4告诉我，我必须休了她。 Deuteronomy 24:1-4 tells me I have to put her away.
这是律法规定的。 That is by law.
所以他这样做了。 And so he does it.
他暗暗地这样做。 He does it quietly.
就在这时，天使来了。 And that's when the angel comes.
经上说，我希望你们注意，跟我一起看。 And it says, and I want you to notice, folks, follow me on this.
在马太福音1章18节，这一切发生在他们同居之前，希 腊词是 synelthein，意思是结合在一起。 In Matthew 1, verse 18, this all happens before they came together, which is the Greek word there is synelthein, which means to come together in an optional union.
但当天使来对约瑟说，就在他准备休她的时候，天使说，约瑟，不要 怕，只管娶过你的妻子马利亚来，因为她所怀的孕是从圣灵来的。 But then when the angel comes and says, Joseph, just when he is ready to divorce her, he says, Joseph, fear not to take Mary your wife, for the child conceived in her is conceived of the Holy Spirit.
那时约瑟知道他可以娶马利亚。 That's when Joseph knew he could take Mary.
天使说，你可以娶你的妻子马利亚。 And the angel says, you can take Mary your wife.
但当默示的作者说，你可以娶马利亚为妻时，他没有 用synelthein，表示婚姻关系的结合。 But when the inspired author says, you can take Mary as your wife, he doesn't use synelthein, to come together in a nuptial relationship.
他用的是paralambano，字面意思是并肩行走，接纳在旁，与妻子同行。 He uses paralambano, which means literally to walk beside, to receive alongside, to walk with your wife.
我相信，正如我在书中指出的，马特，你知道，这直接来自撒母耳记下16- 21章。如果你记得大卫的故事，他的儿子押沙龙试图从父亲手中夺取王位。 And I believe, as I point out in my book, as you know, Matt, this comes right out of 2 Samuel 16-21. If you remember the story of David, whose son Absalom tried to take the throne from his father.
政变发生在他夺取大卫的十个妃嫔时。 And the coup d'état happens when he takes ten of David's brides.
这对我们来说很奇怪，但这是部落文化。 Now, this is strange for us, but this is a tribal culture.
他已经有将领支持他。 He already had generals on his side.
他已经有民众支持他。 He already had the people on his side.
现在，如果他能夺取大卫的妻子，政变就完成了。 And now, if he can take David's wives, the coup is complete.
这是对他父亲的终极羞辱。 It's the ultimate humiliation of his father.
他夺取了十个妻子。 He takes the ten wives.
当然，他的政变失败了。 Of course, his coup fails.
他最终被挂在树上，那是他美丽长发的有力形象。 He ends up, it's kind of a powerful image of him getting caught in that tree with his beautiful long hair.
他是个英俊的人，大卫为他的儿子哀哭。 He was a handsome man, and David weeps for his son.
这是耶稣爱他儿女的美丽形象，但那是另一个话题，不是吗，马特？ Well, it's a beautiful image of Jesus loving his children, but that's another talk, isn't it, Matt?
但关键是，当押沙龙夺取了大卫的十个妻子，十个妃嫔后，押沙龙死后，大卫立即派 人——这在撒母耳记下16章和21章3节——他派人把那十个妻子带到他的宫中。 But the bottom line is, when Absalom took those ten wives of David, ten concubines, after Absalom died, David immediately sent—and again, this is in 2 Samuel 16 and 2 Samuel 21, verse 3—he sends for those ten wives and has them brought to his palace.
她们来与他同住，但经上在21章3节说，她们被禁闭如同寡妇。 And they come to live with him, but the scripture says there in chapter 21, verse 3, they were locked up as in widowhood.
他不能与她们同房。 He could not have conjugal relations with them.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
因为耶利米书3章1至2节，以及申命记24章1至4节告诉 我们，如果你有一个订婚的妻子，无论是正式婚约还是完婚的 ，如果她跟了别人，她永远不能回到前夫那里，即使他死了。 Because Jeremiah 3, verses 1 and 2, as well as Deuteronomy 24, verses 1 through 4, tells us that if you have a betrothed, whether it's a ratified union or a consummated union, and the woman goes with someone else, she can never come back to her former spouse, even if he dies.
这不是新约的神学。 Again, this is not New Testament theology.
这不是我们今天的婚姻神学，而是旧约的婚姻神学。 This is not our theology of marriage today, but this is the theology of marriage in the Old Testament.
他在任何情况下都不能再娶她。 He could never take her back under any circumstances.
他再也不能与她同房。 He could never have conjugal relations with her again.
为什么？ Why?
因为她属于另一个。 Because she belongs to that other.
所以大卫所做的…… And so what David did...
他有责任照顾他的前妻们，因为记住在古代以色 列，女人不能随便出去找工作养活自己，对吧？ he had a responsibility to take care of his former wives, because remember in ancient Israel, you couldn't just go out as a woman, get a job, take care of yourself, right?
他有责任照顾她，但他不能与她同房，因为她属于另一个。 He had a responsibility to take care of her, but he could never have conjugal relations with her because she belongs to another.
同样，约瑟知道当天使说，这孩子是从圣灵怀的，他会知道，马特， 我在书中论证，马利亚——这样说吧——圣灵不能签署户籍文件。 In the same way, Joseph knew when the angel said, this child is conceived of the Holy Spirit, he would have known, Matt, I argue in my book, that Mary—let's put it this way—the Holy Spirit cannot sign census papers.
圣灵不能保护马利亚免受想知道那孩子从哪里来的暴民的攻击。 The Holy Spirit cannot defend Mary against a mob that wants to know where that baby came from.
但约瑟有责任照顾马利亚。 But Joseph has a responsibility to take care of Mary.
因此，天使说，不要怕娶她，要接纳她在旁，做她的保护者。 Thus, the angel says, fear not to take her, to receive her alongside, to be her protector.
但他当然不能与她同房。 But he, of course, could never have conjugal relations.
事实上，如果你认为他这样做了，那就与我们在旧约和新约中所知的奉 献给神的一切相矛盾，正如我之前所说，婚姻的性质，旧约，实际上在 新约中也是如此，因为我们在圣母马利亚中引入了圣事层面的婚姻。 In fact, if you argue that he did, That is contradicting everything we know in the Old Testament and New Testament about that which is consecrated to God, as I said before, the nature of marriage, Old Testament, and in fact in the New Testament as well, because we have introduced in the Blessed Virgin Mary marriage on a sacramental level here.
也就是说，她与圣灵成婚。 That is, she was married to the Holy Spirit.
她成为新约中婚姻的原型，甚至在羔羊与他的新妇教会的婚礼之前。 She becomes the prototype for marriage in the New Testament, even before the marriage of the Lamb to His bride, the Church.
所以，我说这些，我知道我们花了很多时间，但我说这些，马特，还有很多我们可以说的。 And so, I say all this, and I know we're taking a lot of time here, but I say all this, Matt, and there's so much more we could say.
你必须从犹太和基督徒的角度理解，这是教会教父们如此愤怒的原因之一。 You have to understand from a Jewish and a Christian perspective that this is one of the reasons why the Fathers of the Church were so angry.
当有人甚至提出约瑟可能与马利亚同房的可能性时，他们非常愤怒。 They were livid when anybody would posit even the possibility that Joseph could have sex with Mary.
这不是因为性是肮脏的，而是因为神圣的性质。 It's not because sex is dirty, but it's because of the nature of the sacred.
事实上，这是因为婚姻的神圣性。 In fact, it's because of the sacredness of marriage.
如果你说约瑟可以与她同房，你就是在否认婚姻的神圣性和马利亚奉献给圣灵的事实。 If you say Joseph could have conjugal relations with her, you are rejecting the sacred nature of marriage and the fact that Mary is consecrated to the Holy Spirit.
她成为了亚西西的圣方济之后方济各会大力倡导的圣灵的新妇。 She becomes what, of course, the Franciscans championed greatly after St. Francis of Assisi, the spouse of the Holy Spirit.
哦，还有很多我们可以谈论的。 Oh, and there's so much more we can talk about.
那真是美好。 Well, that's beautiful.
假设一个新教徒说，好吧，神的母亲，没问题，终身童贞，我可以接受。 Suppose a Protestant says, great, Mother of God, fair enough, perpetual virginity, I can get on board with that.
我想谈谈无原罪始胎。 I want to talk about the Immaculate Conception.
好的。 Yes.
因为我们没有15个小时，我想也许不深入探讨圣经，你信不信。 Because we don't have 15 hours, I would like to maybe just not delve too deep into Scripture, believe it or not.
我知道忠实的新教徒和公教徒可以在这些经文上来回讨论。 I know faithful Protestants and Catholics can go back and forth on these verses.
是的。 Yes.
也许我们可以谈谈这个，但我真的很想知道早期教会对此的看法。 Maybe we can get to that, but I'm really interested in what did the early Church believe about this?
我的意思是，如果你有像…… I mean, if you've got people as late as the...
嘿，你能关掉那个…… Hey, are you able to turn that...
好的，我现在就去。 Yeah, I'm going to do that now.
明白了。 Got it.
你知道，如果你有像托马斯·阿奎那这样的人…… You know, if you've got people like Thomas Aquinas who...
你知道这表明与阿奎那一致。 you know this shows compliance with Aquinas.
阿奎那明确相信马利亚是无罪的，但似乎否认了无原罪始胎。 Aquinas clearly believed that Mary was sinless but seems to have denied the Immaculate Conception.
如果你有像他这样的人在13世纪否认它，因为他不知道如何调和…… If you've got somebody like him in the 13th century denying it because he doesn't know how to reconcile that with...
对，为什么我们应该接受这个？ correct, why should we accept this?
我明白，当我们看早期教会时，我能看到他们在洗礼重生上是一致的。 I get when we look at the early Church I can see that they're unanimous on baptismal regeneration.
我能看到他们在圣餐上是一致的。 I can see that they're unanimous on the Eucharist.
那马利亚的无原罪始胎呢？ What about the Immaculate Conception of Mary?
教父们使用过这种语言吗？ Did the Fathers use that language?
说所有最早的基督徒或他们中的大多数教导这个，不是有点牵强吗？ Isn't it a bit of a stretch to say that all the earliest Christians or the majority of them taught this?
如果不是，那在哪里找到的？ Or if not, where is that found?
这是一个很好的问题，再次，非常重要。 It's a great and, once again, very important question.
但我们发现的是，像三位一体一样，最早的教会教父并没有教导三位一体。 But what we find is, like the Trinity, the earliest Fathers of the Church do not teach on the Trinity.
事实上，第一次使用「三位一体」这个词是在公元181年，由安提阿的圣提阿非罗。 In fact, the first time the word Trinity is used is in 181 A.D. by St. Theophilus of Antioch.
而三位一体的教义是在几个世纪中发展起来的。 And the Trinity would be developed over centuries.
但所有基督徒都承认这一点，对吧？ But all Christians acknowledge this, right?
那么，关于无原罪始胎，你所拥有的并不是明确的教导，就像三位一体一样。 Well, when it comes to the Immaculate Conception, what you have is not an explicit, just as with the Trinity.
现在，你可以在圣保罗、伊格那丢中看到基督的神性。 Now, you can see in St. Paul, Ignatius, the divinity of Christ.
你可以在圣爱任纽中看到圣灵的神性等等。 You can see it in St. Irenaeus and the divinity of the Holy Spirit and such.
但你没有三位一体本身。 But you don't have Trinity per se.
同样，我的朋友，你所拥有的是无原罪始胎的种子形式。 In the same way, my friend, what you have is the Immaculate Conception in seed form.
早在我指出的，梅菲特斯致狄奥格尼图斯的信， 大约写于公元140年，谈到马利亚没有败坏。 As far back as I point out, you know, the letter of Mephetes to Diognetus, which is written roughly about 140 A.D., that talks about Mary being without corruption.
现在，有人认为这是指马利亚的终身童贞，我相信，正如 我在书中指出的，他谈到的败坏是像夏娃被败坏一样。 Now, some argue that for the perpetual virginity of Mary, and I believe, as I point out in my book, he's talking about corruption as in Eve was corrupted.
她不是被性败坏的；她被败坏了。 She was not corrupted by sex; she was corrupted.
试图将这种观念插入梅菲特斯致狄奥格尼图斯的书信中是错误的。 And that's a false notion to try to insert that into the Epistle of Mephetes to Diognetus.
但你也有，从最早的著作中，马利亚被揭示为新夏娃，这对圣约翰 ·亨利·纽曼在他关于新夏娃的伟大论文中是关键，这是非凡的。 But you also have, from, again, the very earliest writings, Mary revealed as the New Eve, and this was the key for Saint John Henry Newman in his great essay on the New Eve, which is phenomenal.
他真正带回了预表论，这种预表论曾经有些沉寂 ——不是绝对的，但没有他带来的那种普及。 He really brought back typology that had kind of been somewhat dormant—not absolutely, but it didn't have the popularity that he really brought to it.
但他指出，你在公元140年的梅菲特斯中有马利亚作为新夏娃。 你在公元150年的殉道者游斯丁的《第一次护教辞》中也有。 But he brings out that you have Mary as the New Eve in Methodes, 140 A.D. You have Justin Martyr, 150 A.D. in his First Apology.
你有圣爱任纽以极其发展的方式。 You have St. Irenaeus in an extremely developed way.
圣爱任纽谈到，就像通过夏娃的不顺服，死亡临到她的儿女。 Saint Irenaeus talks about how that, you know, just as through the disobedience of Eve, death came to her children.
哦，夏娃。 Oh, Eve.
夏娃的不顺服。 Disobedience of Eve.
哦，是的。 Oh, yes.
对不起。 I'm sorry.
主啊，求你赦免我。 Forgive me, Lord.
好的。 Okay.
是的，通过夏娃的不顺服，死亡临到她的儿女。 Yeah, through the disobedience of Eve, death came to her children.
通过马利亚的顺服，生命来了。 Through the obedience of Mary, life came.
在那里你真正看到了共救主，强有力地揭示出来。 And there you have really co-redemptrix, powerfully revealed.
但新夏娃是教父们一致教导的，马特。 But the New Eve is unanimously taught by the Fathers, Matt.
一致的，我可以列出名单，我在书中也这样做了，从革利免到——你说得出名字的。 Unanimously, and I could go down the list, and I do in my book, Clement to—you name it.
好吧，如果马利亚确实是新夏娃，这就不言而喻了。 All right, well, if in fact Mary is the New Eve, this becomes a no-brainer.
你所看到的，再次，我必须说，是种子形式。 What you see, again, now I have to say, in seed form.
你知道，你有叙利亚的圣以法莲在《伊甸的耶稣》27 号赞美诗中，著名地谈到马利亚和耶稣是无瑕疵的。 You know, you have St. Ephraim of Syria in the Jesus of Eden hymn number 27, who famously talks about how Mary and Jesus are without stain.
我的意思是，这几乎是丑闻，把他们放在同等地位。 I mean, it's almost scandalous, putting them on a par.
这不是他在做的，但他是关于他们的无罪。 That's not what he's doing, but he is with regard to their sinlessness.
奥古斯丁也做了类似的事情，不是吗，当涉及到无罪的问题时？ Augustine does something similar, doesn't he, when it comes to the issue of sinlessness?
是的，他确实如此。 Yes, he does.
他说，我要明确，当谈到马利亚时，谈论罪——那时他在对付伯拉纠派——他说，谈到罪 时，我要明确我们不是在谈论马利亚，因为她是独一无二的，因为罪丝毫没有触及她。 He says, I want to make clear that when it comes to Mary, in talking about sin—that's when he was dealing with the Pelagians—he says, when dealing with sin, I want to make clear we're not talking about Mary, because she's in a category by herself, because sin in no wise touches her.
你有所有这些一致的例子。 You have all of these examples consistently.
然而，对于这如何与原罪相关，并没有完全的理解。 However, there was not a full grasp on exactly how this works in relation to original sin.
直到大约9世纪的拉德伯图斯·帕修斯，他才第一次真正阐明了后来威廉·沃尔所继 承的，然后他的门徒邓斯·司各脱在15世纪真正阐明的——保存性救恩的概念。 It would not be until Radbertus Pacius in about the 9th century that he would be the first that really hammers out what William of Ware would pick up on later and then his disciple Duns Scotus in the 15th century would really hammer it out—the idea of a preservative salvation.
这成为这里的一个关键点。 And this becomes a key point here.
虽然所有教父都承认马利亚无罪。 While all of the Fathers acknowledge Mary's without sin.
现在，你可能——我告诉你，在我的研究中，马特 ，很多人想当然地认为，有些教父说马利亚有罪。 Now, you may—I'll tell you, in my research, Matt, a lot of folks take for granted, well, some Fathers say Mary has sin.
你找不到这样的说法。 You can't find it.
你找到的是轻微的过失之类的，但在任何教父的口中很难找到罪的说法。 What you find are venial faults and things like that, but it is very difficult to find sins on the lips of any Church Fathers.
令人惊讶的是，他们都避开了——而一些被认为这样说的教父，当我实际研究 他们时，他们并没有。他们会说轻微的过失，但从不说罪，这是有原因的。 It's extraordinary how they all stay away from—and some of the very Fathers who are claimed to say it, when I actually researched them, they don't. They'll say venial faults, but they never say sin, and there's a reason for that.
即使在东方，她也被称为panhagia，全然圣洁，尽管神学还没有完全阐明。 Even in the East, she was referred to as panhagia, all holy, even though, again, the theology wasn't fully laid out.
但随着我们对原罪理解的发展，出现了问题，因为，好吧，原罪在这里如何运作？ But with our developed understanding of original sin came problems, because, okay, how does original sin work here?
当然，马利亚没有个人罪。 Granted, Mary has no sins as far as personal sins.
这是确定的。 That's a done deal.
正如路德维希·奥特在他的《公教会教义基础》中指出的，关于个人罪，教父们是一致的。 As Ludwig Ott in his Fundamentals of the Catholic Dogma points out, it's unanimous among the Fathers when it comes to personal sin.
这是确定的。 That's a done deal.
原罪，在概念上——我们如何处理这个？ Original sin, it was conceptually—how do we deal with this?
因为如果你读圣托马斯·阿奎那，顺便说一下，当 我在神学院时，马特，我实际上写了一篇论文。 Because if you read St. Thomas Aquinas, and by the way, when I was in the seminary, Matt, I actually wrote a paper.
我试图为托马斯在无原罪始胎上的观点辩护。 I tried to defend Thomas on the Immaculate Conception.
我失败了。 I lost.
我们可以承认托马斯在某些事情上是错的。 We can admit that Thomas was wrong on things.
这没关系。 It's okay.
没错。 That's right.
但托马斯无法理解——当你读《神学大全》时这很明显——如果 他说无原罪始胎的概念没有意义，因为他认为只有两种可能性。 But what Thomas could not fathom—and it's obvious when you read the Summa on this—if he says the idea of an immaculate conception doesn't make sense, because he argues there's only two possibilities.
她要么在受孕前被救赎，这很荒谬，因为她还不存在——那是不可能的——要么在受孕后。 She was either redeemed before her conception, which is absurd because she did not exist yet—that's impossible—or after her conception.
他甚至没有——他一定没有读过拉德伯图斯·帕修斯，他在几百 年前就提出了这个观点，但在司各脱之前并没有真正得到发展。 He did not even have—he must not have read Radbertus Pacius, who did posit this a few hundred years before, but it didn't really gain ground before Scotus.
是的，在威廉·沃尔之前，他也教导了司各脱。 Yes, before William of Ware, who taught Scotus as well.
但关键是。 But here's the bottom line.
当威廉·沃尔和司各脱的门徒真正阐明这一点时，看，我们不是说 ——教会不是说——你不能说马利亚在她存在之前就被救赎了。 When William of Ware and then Scotus' disciples really hammer this out, look, we're not saying—the Church is not saying—you cannot say that Mary was redeemed before she existed.
那是荒谬的。 That's absurd.
但你也不必说她直到后来才被救赎。 But you also don't have to say that she wasn't redeemed until afterward.
为什么呢？ And why is that?
好吧，看犹大书。 Well, look at the book of Jude.
在犹大书25节，「愿荣耀、威严、能力、权柄，因我们的主耶稣基督归与独 一的神，我们的救主，从万古以前并现在，直到永永远远。阿们。」对吧？ In Jude, verse 25, "Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling and preserve you blameless at the coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ," right?
有保存性的救恩，那就是救恩。 There is preservative salvation, and that is salvation.
事实上，马特，你每天都被神的恩典完全保守，免于陷入神知道的任何罪中。 The fact is, Matt, you are being kept from sins entirely every day of your life by the grace of God that keeps you from falling into God only knows what.
相信我，如果没有神的恩典，他会的。 And trust me, he would if it wasn't for God's grace.
事实上，我们都会。 In fact, we all would.
这就是重点。 That's the point.
马利亚被保守了。 Mary was preserved.
因此，圣庇护九世教宗在1854年说，因基督功 劳的特殊恩典，马利亚被保守，免受原罪的玷污。 Hence, Pope St. Pius IX in 1854 would say, by a singular privilege of grace in view of the merits of Christ, Mary was preserved free of the stain of original sin.
那么她得救了吗？ So was she saved?
当然。 Absolutely.
路加福音1章47节：「我心以神我的救主为乐。」 Luke 1, verse 47, "My soul rejoices in God my Savior."
她得救了，但她得救的方式更为崇高。 She was saved, but she was saved in a more sublime way.
正如邓斯·司各脱著名地说的，就像一个人走近泥潭或深坑。 As Duns Scotus famously said, like the man who is approaching a mud puddle or a deep pit of mud.
一个人掉进去，他必须被救起，但另一个人是通过防止跌倒而得救的。 One falls in; he must be saved and lifted out of the pit, but another is saved by preventing the fall to start with.
事实上，后者是更完美的救恩，那就是圣母马利亚。 In fact, the latter is the more perfect salvation, and that's the Blessed Virgin Mary.
我听人说，如果神能为马利亚这样做，为什么不能为我们所有人这样做呢？ I've heard people say, well, if he can do that, if God can do that for Mary, why can't he just do that for all of us?
他当然可以。 He sure could.
说神能做什么是一回事，因为理论上你可以说神能这样做。 Well, it's one thing to say what God could do, because theoretically you could say God could do that.
但有很多原因他不这样做。这涉及一个伟大的奥秘。 But there are lots of reasons why he doesn't. And that gets into a great mystery.
但这当然是合理的，最终，这让我们回到一般的恶的问题。 But it certainly is reasonable, and ultimately, that gets us back to the problem of evil in general.
但这是个好答案。 But that's a good answer.
我喜欢这个。 I like that.
是的，他能。 Yeah, well, he can.
你不认为他不能吗？你要争论他不能这样做吗？ Don't you think he can't? Are you going to argue that he's incapable of doing that?
当然不是。 Well, no.
好吧。 Okay.
那么，这里有另一个反对意见。 Well, here's another objection.
我的意思是，你已经给出了一些论据。 I mean, you've kind of given a bit of a case.
我知道你在书中详细讨论了这个，大家都需要去看看。 I know you go into it in much greater detail in your book, which everyone needs to go and get.
请多给点钱。 And more money for that, please.
但很多人会说，听着，这个无原罪始胎的教义直到19世纪才由 庇护九世教宗定义。所以，这些是公教会很晚才发明的东西。 But a lot of people will say, listen, this dogma of the Immaculate Conception wasn't defined until the 19th century by Pope Pius IX. So, come on, this is stuff that the Catholic Church is inventing really late in the game.
你对此的快速回应是什么？ What's your quick response to that?
好的。 Right.
显然，当你看历史时，这不是教会晚期发明的东西，因为你知道，我们有16世纪的特伦托 会议，在关于原罪的第五次会议中，特伦托会议说，关于这个，我们把马利亚放在一边，因 为事实上，正如圣奥古斯丁在一千多年前所说的，因为我们要明确这不适用于圣母马利亚。 Well, obviously, when you look at history, this isn't something the Church invented late in the game because, you know, we have the Council of Trent in the 16th century talking about—in its, I think it's session five on original sin—where the Council of Trent says, with regard to this, we're leaving Mary aside because, in fact, just as St. Augustine said over a thousand years before that, because we want to make clear that this does not apply to the Blessed Virgin Mary.
你看，人们必须理解的是，这里是我为我的新教朋友使用的比喻，马特。 See, what folks have to understand is, here's the analogy I use, Matt, for my Protestant friend.
为什么教会直到公元382年才有圣经正典，甚至在普通层面上？我的意思 是，你有圣亚他拿修在367年有一个正典，但不完全符合最终的正典。 Why did the Church not have a canon of Scripture, even on the ordinary level, until 382 A.D.? I mean, you have St. Athanasius who had a canon in 367 that did not entirely agree with what would be the final canon.
你有公元300年埃尔维拉的正典；你有流传的正典。 You have canons from 300 A.D. from Elvira; you have canons floating around.
你有不同的教父说一些事情，比如，看优西比乌。 You have different Fathers of the Church that were saying things like, well, look at Eusebius.
我们可以总结一下。 We could kind of synopsize.
当优西比乌说启示录被许多人拒绝，彼得后书，约翰 二书和三书，希伯来书——这些都是有疑问的书。 When Eusebius says the book of Revelation is rejected by many, 2 Peter, 2 and 3 John, Hebrews—these were questionable books.
为什么教会没有定义它？ Why didn't the Church define it?
事实上，这是圣灵工作了几千年的方式。 Well, the fact is, this is the M.O. of the Holy Spirit working for thousands of years.
圣灵，马特，从未降临。 The Holy Spirit, Matt, has never come down.
让我们回到亚伯拉罕。 Let's go back to Abraham.
神有没有对亚伯拉罕说，「亚伯拉罕，我是圣父、圣子、圣灵」？ Did God come down to Abraham and say, "Abraham, I am Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?"
不，这不是神工作的方式。 No, this is not the way God works.
我们作为基督徒都知道这一点。 And we all know this as Christians.
当亚当和夏娃堕落时，为什么神不立即介入，向他们揭示一切并带他们回来？ When Adam and Eve fell, why didn't God just come in immediately and reveal everything to them and bring them back?
因为神爱自由。 Because God loves freedom.
他创造我们为自由的。 He created us as free.
他允许我们走开。 He allows us to walk away.
他说，你走开，你将自食其果。 He says, you walk away, you're going to reap the whirlwind.
但他逐渐开始撒种，正如希伯来书1章1节所说，「神既在古时借着 众先知多次多方地晓谕列祖，就在这末世借着他儿子晓谕我们。」 But then he gradually begins to plant seeds to, as Hebrews 1, verse 1 says, "God, who through various and partial ways spoke through the prophets, now in these last days has spoken by a Son."
注意他如何在几千年中逐渐说出话语。 Notice how he speaks the word over thousands of years.
他逐渐地说出话语。 He speaks the word gradually.
然后是耶稣。 Then Jesus.
我们有了启示的完全。 We have the fullness of the revelation.
但即便如此，我们花了两千年深入探究他所启示的。 But even there, we spend 2,000 years plumbing the depths of what he revealed.
这就是神的方式。所以如果你说，我不接受这个，因为教 会花的时间太长了，那么你就无法接受任何基督教教义。 That's just God's M.O. And so if you're going to say, well, I'm not going to accept this because it took the Church too long, well, then you're not going to be able to accept any Christian doctrine.
是的，这是个好观点，因为我们不是在谈论持续的启示。 Yeah, that's a good point, because we're not talking about ongoing revelation.
就像亚伯拉罕的时代，有持续的启示。 Like in the time of Abraham, there was ongoing revelation.
最后一位使徒的去世…… The death of the last apostle...
就没有了。所以你说的不是这是事后才接受的，而是对使徒所接受的进行阐明。 there wasn't. So what you're saying isn't that this was received after the fact, but this is kind of the working out of what was received by the apostles.
耶稣对天国怎么说？ And what does Jesus say about the kingdom of heaven?
他说天国，或地上的神的国，如同面酵。 He says the kingdom of heaven, or the kingdom of God on earth, is like leaven.
它进入面团，然后发酵。 It gets into the lump and then it grows.
它像一粒芥菜种。 It's like a mustard seed.
它开始时很小，然后变得巨大。 It starts really small, and then it becomes enormous.
假设一个火星人或仙女座星系的外星人来到这里，看着一粒芥菜种和一棵长成的植物。 Take a Martian or alien from the Andromeda Galaxy who comes here, looks at a mustard seed and a full-grown plant.
那是从这个来的，对吧？ That came from that, right?
这就是教会。 Well, that's the Church.
教会像芥菜种一样成长，包括教义和我们的敬拜形式等。 The Church grows like the mustard seed, and that includes doctrine as well as our forms of worship and so forth.
它被期望成长，因为圣灵带来生命和成长。 It is expected to grow because the Holy Spirit brings life and growth.
这就是他所做的。 That's what he does.
好的。 Okay.
现在，我想你提到了共救主。 Now, you mentioned co-redemptrix, I think, earlier.
我想问你一个可能的第五个马利亚教义，人们一直在谈论的，就是马利亚作为中保的概念。 I wanted to ask you about a possible fifth Marian dogma that people have been talking about, and this is the idea of Mary being mediatrix.
这几乎像是公教徒故意吓唬他们的新教弟兄。 It's almost like Catholics are intent on scaring their Protestant brethren, you know?
我们还能说什么让他们害怕呢？ What else can we say that could freak them out?
解释一下这对我们的意义，以及为什么我们不需要害怕它。 Explain what this means to us and why we don't need to be afraid of it.
是的，当然。 Yes, absolutely.
首先，中保，如果你看《教会宪章》，大公会议的神 学宪章，会议的神父们实际上宣告马利亚为中保。 Well, first of all, mediatrix, if you go to Lumen Gentium, the dogmatic constitution on the Church, the council fathers actually declared Mary to be mediatrix.
但在梵二会议上，有一项动议要定义马利亚为共救主和万恩中保。 But there was a motion at Vatican II to define Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix of all grace.
神父们否决了万恩中保和共救主。 The fathers said no to the mediatrix of all graces and no to the co-redemptrix.
事实上，如你所知，拉青格枢机——我仍称他为拉青格枢机，荣休教宗本笃十六世 ——在他伟大的著作《神与世界》中谈到他反对共救主的定义，出于特定原因。 And in fact, as you know, Cardinal Ratzinger—I still call him Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI—in his great book, God and the World, talks about how he was opposed to the definition of co-redemptrix for a particular reason.
他认为这是语言的滥用，会引起太多混淆，但他说我们有圣 母马利亚的其他称号，教导相同的神学，比如教会之母。 He believed it was an abuse of language and causes way too much confusion, but he says that we have other titles of the Blessed Virgin Mary that teach the same theology, like Mother of the Church.
保禄六世就是朝这个方向走的。 That's the direction Paul VI went in.
他定义马利亚为教会之母，现在方济各教宗刚刚将其定为教会的节日，作为教会之母。 He defined Mary as Mother of the Church, and now we just had Pope Francis make it a feast day in the Church as Mother of the Church.
当然，这与她作为共救主密切相关，因为你知道，所有的救恩都是通过公教会来的。 Of course, that's integrally related to her as a co-redemptrix because, you know, all salvation comes through the Catholic Church.
你不能到达洗礼的水，除非通过马利亚的怀胎。 You can't get to the baptismal waters except through the womb of Mary.
对不起，事实就是这样。 I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.
所以现在我恰好是——我告诉你，我恰好是希望有一天共救主被定义的支持者。 So now I happen to be—I will tell you, I happen to be a fan of co-redemptrix one day being defined.
帮我个忙，好吗？ Do me a favor, right?
我们有一个开放的公教徒或福音派，对这种语言感到紧张。 We've got an open-minded Catholic or evangelical who's nervous about this language.
你能为我们总结一下吗？ Could you just sum it up for us?
因为我知道这可能会变得非常复杂。 Because I know it can get very complicated.
你能以一种方式为我们总结，让我们明白，好吧，这 就是他们所说的，尽管这种语言听起来有点吓人？ Could you sum it up for us in a way that we're like, okay, that's what they're saying, even though this language can sound a bit daunting?
好的。 Yes.
我认为最好的方式是看哥林多前书3章9节。当圣保罗谈到他的使徒职 分时，他说，我们是与神同工的，希腊文是「synergoi」。 I think the best way to do that is go to 1 Corinthians 3, verse 9. When St. Paul is talking about his apostolic ministry, and he says, we are co-laborers with Christ, "synergoi" in Greek.
等一下，你怎么能说你是同工呢？ Wait a minute, how can you say you are a co-laborer?
好吧，他在第5节刚告诉你原因。他说，保罗算什么？ Well, he just told you why in verse 5. He says, what is Paul?
巴拿巴算什么？ What is Barnabas?
不过是你们因而信主的工具，他对哥林多人说。 But instruments by which you have come to believe, he's saying to the Corinthians.
然后他说，因为我们是与神同工的。 And then that moves into, for we are co-laborers with Christ.
这就是我们所谈的。 That's what we're talking about.
这并不是说保罗与耶稣平等，不是。 It's not meaning that Paul is equal to Jesus, no.
这意味着他与耶稣合作带来救恩，从这个意义上说，他是同工。 It means that he cooperates with Jesus in bringing salvation, and in that sense, he is a co-laborer.
不是平等的意义，这就是人们困惑的地方。 Not in the sense of being an equal, and that's where people get tripped up.
顺便说一下，这就是问题之一。 And by the way, that's one of the problems.
本笃对共救主的一个问题是它引起的混淆，让人们以为他们平等。 One of the problems Benedict has with co-redemptrix is the confusion it causes with people thinking they're equal.
我认为，只需教导他们。 I argue, just teach them.
就像我们谈论神的母亲时那样。 Kind of like what we were saying with the Mother of God.
在陈述真理后澄清混淆。 Clear up the confusion after you state what's true.
当然，当然。 Absolutely, absolutely.
我指出本笃教宗的立场，因为我相信在可预见的未来我们不会有定义。 I point out Pope Benedict's position because I do believe we're not going to have a definition in the foreseeable future.
但人们必须明白，这已经是公教会的神学。 But what people have to understand, it's already Catholic theology.
这就是公教会…… It is what the Catholic...
正如本笃自己所说，我们有其他表达相同神学的形象。 And as Benedict himself says, we have other images that relate the same theology.
她是共救主。 She is co-redemptrix.
事实上，我们都被呼召——这是重要的一部分——我们都被呼召与基督同作救赎者。 In fact, we are all called—and this is an important part—we're all called to be co-redeemers with Christ.
如果你理解我们是与他同工的，我们被呼召将他人带到耶稣面前，对吧？ If you understand we are co-laborers with him, we're called to bring other people to Jesus, right?
只要我们这样做，我们就可以像圣保罗那样说，例如，在哥林多前书 9章22节，他说，我向什么人就作什么人，无论如何总要救些人。 And as much as we do that, we can say with St. Paul, for example, in 1 Corinthians 9:22, he says, I've become all things to all men that by all means I might save some.
保罗可以对提摩太说，在提摩太前书4章16节，「你要谨慎自己和自 己的教训，恒心这样行，因为这样行又能救自己，又能救听你的人。」 Paul could say to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:16, "Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine, for in so doing you will both save yourself and them that hear thee."
圣经还能更清楚吗？ How could the Bible be any more plain?
我们被呼召与基督同作救赎者，拯救自己的灵魂和他人。 We are called to be co-redeemers with Christ, saving our own souls as well as others.
还有一个，我可以给你一百个，但彼得前书3章22 节说，彼得说我们必须洁净自己，除去一切污秽。 And one more, I could give you a hundred, but 1 Peter 3:22 says, Peter says we must purify ourselves from all defilement.
在真理中洁净自己。 Purify ourselves in the truth.
你怎么能洁净自己呢？ How can you purify yourself, man?
你是救主吗？ What are you, the Savior?
不，是通过与神的恩典合作。 No, it's by cooperating with God's grace.
好吧，再说一个。 Well, just one more.
约翰一书1章7节。这里有一个美丽的形象，说明什么是共救主。 1 John 1, verse 7. Here's a beautiful image of what it means to be a co-redeemer.
经上说，「我们若在光明中行，如同神在光明中，就 彼此相交，他儿子耶稣的血也洗净我们一切的罪。 Scripture says, "If we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, continues to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
我们若说自己无罪，便是自欺，真理不在我们心里了。」 If we say we have no sin, we are a liar and the truth is not in us.".
但我们若认自己的罪，神是信实的，是公义的，必要赦免我们的罪。 But if we confess our sins, he's faithful and just to forgive us.
所以注意，我们必须做点什么。 So notice, we have to do something.
我们必须在光明中行，如果我们这样做，耶稣的血就洗净我们。 We have to walk in the light, and if we do, the blood of Jesus cleanses us.
这就是共救主，兄弟。 That's co-redemptrix, brother.
通过我们的合作，我们的罪被除去。 By our cooperation, our sins are being taken.
如果我们认罪，是的。 If we confess our sins, yes.
我非常喜欢这个。 I like that a lot.
所以就像腓立比、以弗所或罗马的基督徒可以说，如果没有保罗，我就不是基督徒， 整个历史上的基督徒群体可以更大程度地说，如果没有马利亚，我就不是基督徒。 So just like a Christian at Philippi or Ephesus or Rome could say, if it weren't for Paul, I wouldn't be a Christian, the entire body of Christians throughout history can say, to an even greater degree, if it weren't for Mary, I wouldn't be a Christian.
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
我必须指出，在我关于无原罪始胎的部分，我引用了可能是431 年以弗所会议上圣西里尔所讲的关于圣母马利亚最有力的讲道。 I've got to point, folks, in my section on the Immaculate Conception, I quote what is probably the most powerful homily ever preached on the Blessed Virgin Mary at the Council of Ephesus in 431 by St. Cyril.
当你读那篇讲道时，我给了你很大一部分，它是美丽的。 When you read that homily, and I give you a good chunk of it, it is beautiful.
他基本上说的正是你所说的，通过马利亚的顺服，魔鬼被驱逐，罪恶被毁灭， 他列出了马利亚作为与基督共救主的角色，就在以弗所会议上，美丽地宣告。 He basically says exactly what you're saying, how that through the yes of Mary, demons are put to flight, sins are destroyed, and it goes down the list of Mary as co-redemptrix with Christ, right there at the Council of Ephesus, beautifully declared.
朋友们，真的，这就是基督教。 And, folks, really, this is just Christianity.
是的，这很有趣。 Yeah, it's funny.
有时我会听人说，你知道，在东方，他们不像你们西方那样谈论马利亚。 Sometimes I'll hear people say, you know, in the East, they don't talk about Mary the way that you in the West do.
有这样的发展。 There's been this kind of development.
但我的意思是，我已经去拜占庭教会五年了，我可 以告诉你，只要看看对马利亚的阿卡提斯祷文。 But, I mean, I've been going to a Byzantine church for five years now, and I can tell you, I mean, just look at the Akathist to Mary.
你熟悉那个祷文吗，蒂姆？ Are you familiar with that prayer, Tim?
我熟悉。 I am.
哦，太强大了，是吧？ Oof, baby, it's so powerful, huh?
确实如此，是的。 It really is, yes.
那是个误解，因为我们许多对马利亚的敬奉来自东方。 That is a myth, because much of the Marian devotion that we have comes from the East.
事实上，我要提醒大家，圣西里尔是在以弗所会议上的东方教父，你读那些话。 In fact, I would remind people that St. Cyril was an Eastern Father at the Council of Ephesus, and you read those words.
我挑战你。 I'll challenge you.
当你读我的书时，读无原罪始胎的那部分，你会看到的。 When you get my book, read that section in the Immaculate Conception, and you'll see it.
它是如此美丽。 It's so beautiful.
你知道吗？ And you know what?
我早些时候说过，如果你在马利亚上错了，你最终会错过神是谁，耶稣是谁。 I said earlier that if you miss it on Mary, you end up missing it on who God is, on who Jesus is.
但你知道你还错过了什么吗？ But you know what else you miss?
你错过了你在耶稣基督里是谁。 You miss it on who you are in Jesus Christ.
因为马利亚来不仅是要向我们揭示神是谁，也是要向我们 揭示我们是谁，她在她的顺服中如此美丽地做到这一点。 Because Mary came not just to reveal who God is to us, but also to reveal who we are to us, and she does it so beautifully in her yes.
因为当她说「是」时，整个宇宙都改变了。 Because when she says yes, the entire universe is changed.
现在，马特·弗雷德和蒂姆·斯台普斯，我们并没有被呼 召像马利亚那样作为宇宙的女王来改变整个宇宙，对吧？ Now, Matt Fred and Tim Staples, we're not called to cooperate in transforming the whole universe the way Mary is queen of the universe, right?
但我们被呼召来改变我们的宇宙——我的生活，我的 家庭，我的妻子，我的孩子，以及我接触到的人。 But we are called to transform our universe—my life, my family, my wife, my kids, and those with whom I have contact.
所以在圣母马利亚身上，我们看到了我们自己的尊严，也看到了我们责任的伟大性质。 And so in the Blessed Virgin Mary, we see our own dignity, and we also see the awesome nature of our responsibility.
是的，那很美。 Yeah, that's beautiful.
我最喜欢的《阿卡提斯祷文》中关于马利亚的一点是她被称为「魔鬼的创伤」。 One of my favorite little nuggets from the Akathist to Mary is where Mary is called "Trauma to the Demons."
我喜欢这个想法，她是一个他们至今未能从中恢复的创伤性事件。 I love the idea that she was a traumatic event that they still haven't recovered from.
我也喜欢西方在圣母马利亚的连祷中称她为异端的铁锤。 And I love in the West the hammer of heretics in the litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
为什么？ Why?
因为，你知道，想想景教徒。 Because, you know, think about the Nestorians.
想想基督论的异端。 Think about the Christological heresies.
如果你在神之母上正确理解，你就安全无虞。 If you get it right on Theotokos, you are safe and secure.
美丽。 Beautiful.
好了，我们需要看的最后一个马利亚教义是马利亚的被提升天。 All right, the final Marian dogma we need to look at is the Assumption of Mary.
你会如何帮助别人理解马利亚的被提升天？ How would you help someone come to understand the Assumption of Mary?
这是什么意思？ What does it mean?
圣经中有记载吗？ Is it found in Scripture?
早期教会相信吗？ Did the early Church believe it?
哦，天哪，是的。 Oh my goodness, yeah.
你知道，这是我的公教朋友极大地帮助了我，让我看 到一些关于圣母马利亚的古老形象，特别是约柜。 Well, you know, this was one that I was helped greatly by my Catholic friend in helping me to see some of the ancient imagery of the Blessed Virgin Mary, especially the Ark of the Covenant.
现在，约柜是你在圣亚他拿修中看到的。 Now, the Ark of the Covenant is something you see in St. Athanasius.
你看到——甚至亚他拿修真的很美地发展了——马利亚作为约柜。 You see it—or even Athanasius really develops beautifully—Mary as the Ark of the Covenant.
但当然，这在他之前很久就存在了。 But, of course, it was around long before him.
这对我有帮助的原因是。 And this was helpful to me for this reason.
我的公教朋友告诉我，蒂姆，被提升天其实并不难。 My Catholic buddy shows me, Tim, the Assumption is really not that tough.
因为你看启示录12章1节，你知道我要说什么，马特。 Because you go to Revelation 12, verse 1, and you know where I'm going, Matt.
这里有一个妇人，身披日头，脚踏月亮，头戴十二星的冠冕。 And here you have the woman clothed with the sun, on her head, a crown of 12 stars, the moon under her feet.
第4和5节，她生下耶稣，就是将来用铁杖辖管万国的男孩子。 Verse 4 and 5, she gives birth to Jesus, the man-child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron.
引用诗篇2篇，弥赛亚诗篇，这显然是耶稣，谁生了耶稣，就是马利亚。 Quoting Psalm 2, the Messianic Psalm, this is obviously Jesus who gave birth to Jesus, but Mary.
当然，我的回应是，那不是马利亚。 And, of course, my response was, well, that's not Mary.
那是教会或旧约的神的子民。 That's the Church or the Old Testament people of God.
当然，公教会的回应是，是的，阿们。 And, of course, the Catholic response is, yes, amen.
那是神的子民。 It is the people of God.
但正如本笃教宗——我在书中引用他的话——所说，文字的字面意思是什么，朋友们？ But what is, as Pope Benedict—and I quote him in my book—says, what is the literal sense of the text, folks?
谁生了耶稣？ Who gave birth to Jesus?
是马利亚，对吧？ Mary did, all right?
现在，我们可以来回争论，好吧，那个妇人是谁？ Now, we can fight back and forth on, okay, who is the woman?
我说是马利亚；你说不是。 I say it's Mary; you say it's not.
但对我来说，马特，不仅仅是那里。 But for me, Matt, it wasn't just there.
顺便说一下，对于被提升天，你知道，你清楚地看 到马利亚在那里被揭示为那妇人，身体在天上。 And by the way, for the Assumption, you know, you clearly have Mary being revealed there, the woman, as being bodily in heaven.
我的意思是，把这与同一本书的启示录6章9节对比， 我们看到殉道者在天上祭坛下，他们说，要到几时呢？ I mean, juxtapose that with the same book, Revelation 6, verse 9, where we have the martyrs revealed in heaven under the altar, and they're saying, how long?
经上说，是殉道者的灵魂。 It says, the souls of the martyrs.
但马利亚，同一本书，启示录——有头，有脚，对吧？ But Mary, same book, Revelation—head, feet, right?
显然，她是身体在天上。 Clearly, she is bodily in heaven.
但我们与新教朋友来回争论，但我要告诉你让我震惊的是往前退一节。 But again, back and forth we fight with our Protestant friends, but I'm going to tell you the thing that lit me up was backing up one verse.
启示录11章19节。这节让我震惊，因为约翰看到的 是什么——正如我们许多听众知道的，启示录是启示。 Revelation 11, verse 19. This is the one that blew my mind, because what is John—and as many of our listeners know, the book of Revelation is the apocalypsis.
这是约翰看到天上敬拜的揭示，以及我们如何被提升，天上 的敬拜如何降临到我们身上，我们正在经历天上的敬拜。 This is John seeing heaven, the unveiling of the heavenly worship and how we are being lifted up and it is being brought down to us and we're experiencing the heavenly worship.
但在11章19节，当他看到天上时，他看到神的殿在天上。 But in chapter 11, verse 19, as he is seeing heaven, he sees the temple of God in heaven.
朋友们，神的殿是什么？ Now, folks, what is the temple of God?
我们从约翰自己的著作中知道。 We know from John's own writings.
这就是写约翰福音的约翰。 This is the same John who wrote the Gospel of John.
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
约翰福音2章21节，或者回到19节，「你们 拆毁这殿，我三日内要再建立起来」，对吧？ John 2, verse 21, or if you back up to verse 19, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again," right?
21节，他所说的殿是指他的身体。 Verse 21, the temple he spoke of is his body.
启示录21章22节，你看到什么？ Revelation 21:22, what do you have?
约翰看到天上没有殿。 John sees that there is no temple in heaven.
为什么？ Why?
因为殿就是羔羊。 Because the temple is the Lamb.
是全能的神和羔羊。 It's Almighty God and the Lamb.
殿的可见部分是什么？ What is the visible component of the temple?
基督的身体。 The body of Christ.
正如他在约翰福音2章21节所说，「你们拆毁这殿，我三日内要再建立起来。」 Just as he said in John 2:21, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
他的身体。 His body.
好的。 All right.
有了这个，我们来看启示录11章19节。约翰看到殿。 With that, we go to Revelation 11:19. So John sees the temple.
殿是什么？ What is the temple?
基督的身体。 The body of Christ.
那么，他在殿中看到的是什么呢？约柜。 Well, what does he see in the temple but the Ark of the Covenant?
那会是什么呢？ So what would that be?
哦，当我第一次意识到这一点时，马特，你知道，你看路加福音1章43节，当以利 沙伯著名地经历新约约柜的同在的力量时，马利亚走进屋子，只是说，「你好吗？」 Oh, when that first hit me, as you know, Matt, you go to Luke 1, verse 43, when Elizabeth famously experiences the power of the presence of the New Covenant Ark when Mary walks into the house and just says, "How you doing?"
她只需这样做，整个天国就爆发了。 That's all she had to do, and all heaven breaks loose.
当然，在圣灵的感动下，以利沙伯惊呼，「我主的母到我这里来，这是从哪里得的呢？」 And under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, of course, Elizabeth exclaims, "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?".
几乎逐字引用撒母耳记下6章9节，大卫在经历旧约约柜的强 大显现时说，「耶和华的约柜到我这里来，我怎能当得起？」 Quoting almost verbatim 2 Samuel 6:9, where David says when he experienced the powerful manifestation of the Old Testament Ark, "Who am I that the ark of my Lord should come unto me?"
马利亚就是约柜，我的朋友们。 Mary is the Ark, my friends.
当约翰看到约柜时，他不是在看出埃及记25章中用皂荚木做的、包金的箱子。 When John sees the Ark, he is not looking at a box made out of acacia wood from Exodus 25 overlaying with gold.
他看到的是马利亚，你猜怎么着？ He is seeing Mary, and guess what?
不仅是马利亚，还有她的身体，因为那是承载羔羊的。 Not just Mary, but her body, because that is what carried the Lamb inside.
这就是为什么马利亚是约柜。 And that's why Mary is the Ark of the Covenant.
她在天上。 She's in heaven.
所以在你看到下一节的妇人之前，你已经有了马利亚。 So before you even get to the next verse of the woman, you've already got Mary.
请指出，因为有些人不知道，章节和节不是那样写的。 And point out to us, because some people don't know this, that chapters and verses weren't written like that.
那是在中世纪加入的。 That was included in the Middle Ages.
斯科特·韩博士在他精彩的书《圣母颂》中指出，是的， 圣经在基督教时代的前近一千年里没有分成章节和节。 Dr. Scott Hahn, in his awesome book, Hail Holy Queen, this man is brilliant, but he beautifully points that out, that yes, the Bible was not broken up into chapters and verses and such for the first almost thousand years of the Christian era.
在一千年之前的部分，以及大约一千年时的新约是一起的。 Well, parts of it before the thousand-year mark and then the New Testament right around the thousand-year mark that was together.
现在，章节和节通常分得很好，但有时不是。 Now, usually the chapters and verses are broken up pretty good, but sometimes they're not.
这是一个没有很好分开的例子，因为那两节是完全连在一起的。 And that's an example of it really not being separated at a good point, because those two verses are absolutely wedded together.
我得告诉你，这就是让我明白的。 And I have to tell you, that's what did it for me.
关于约柜，或关于被提升天，就是约柜。 On the Ark of the Covenant, or on the Assumption, was the Ark of the Covenant.
我看到了。 I saw this.
哦，天哪，那是她的身体。 Oh my gosh, that's her body.
所以在下一节，当然，那是马利亚。 So then in the next verse, well, of course, that's Mary.
现在我们的观众可以看到经文。 Right now our viewers can see the text.
我从11章19节开始，一直到12章。所以他们在你解释时看到这 一点，这相当了不起，尤其考虑到约柜在此之前已经失落了多少年？ I have it started at verse 19, chapter 11, going down to chapter 12. So they're seeing this as you're explaining it, and it is quite remarkable, especially given the fact that the Ark of the Covenant had been lost for how many years prior to this?
是的，几百年。 Yes, hundreds of years.
这对犹太人非常重要。 And this was very important to the Jewish people.
确实如此，是的。 It sure was, yeah.
我们在旧约中最后听到的是在《马加比书》。 The last we hear of it in the Old Testament is in Maccabees.
然后它消失了。 And it disappears.
所以至少已经过了一百年。 So at least 100 years have gone.
好的。 Okay.
所以这就像至圣所？ So this is like the Holy of Holies?
那就是我们所说的约柜吗？ Is that what we would call the Ark?
还是说约柜在至圣所内？ Or would we say that the Ark was within the Holy of Holies?
约柜在里面。 The Ark was within.
好的。 Okay.
但这是以色列人带入战场以确保胜利的东西。 But this is what Israel brought with them into battle to assure their victory.
没错。 Correct.
它使旷野中的会幕…… It's what made the tabernacle in the wilderness...
成为圣洁，约柜在会幕中，后来所罗门建造的圣殿中，约柜在殿内。 Holy, the Ark was in the tabernacle, and in the temple that Solomon built later, the Ark was in the temple.
所以如果你是第一世纪的犹太读者，约翰说他找到了约柜，你会竖起耳朵。 So if you're a first-century Jewish reader and John says he's found the Ark, your ears pick up.
我得告诉你，伙计，我不知道我们有多少时间，但我在飞机上遇 到一个人，他正在路上——他是一个美好的福音派基督徒弟兄。 I've got to tell you, man, I don't know how much time we have, but I was on an airplane with a fellow who was on his way—he was a wonderful evangelical brother in Christ.
哦，我们聊得很好。 Oh, we had a great conversation.
我们在头等舱，所以很舒服，我们聊了好几个小时。 We were in first class, so we were comfortable, and we just talked for hours.
这家伙正要去一个挖掘现场，他们在那里试图找到约柜。 This guy was on his way to an excavation where they're trying to find the Ark of the Covenant.
哦，天哪。 Oh, my goodness.
我几乎不忍心打破他的幻想，因为这家伙涉及数 百万美元和挖掘，筹集捐款和所有这些事情。 And I almost hated to pop his bubble because this guy's involved in millions of dollars and excavations, getting donations and all this stuff.
但我向他解释，我向他阐明马利亚是约柜，作为公教徒， 你知道，如果你找到了约柜，那会是一个不错的发现。 But I explained to him, I laid out to him the fact that Mary is the Ark of the Covenant, and as Catholics, you know, if you found the Ark, that would be a nice find.
但那不是约柜。 But that's not the Ark.
那不是真正的约柜。 That's not the true Ark.
真正的约柜是圣母马利亚。 The true Ark is the Blessed Virgin Mary.
他说，我得告诉你，我从未听过这个，我不知道该怎么想，但你给了我一些思考的东西。 He said, I've got to tell you, I have never heard that before, and I don't know what to think, but you've given me something to think about.
这很有力量。 That is powerful.
蒂姆，你是圣母如此出色的代言人，我很高兴你存在并做你正在做的事。 Tim, you are such a terrific spokesperson for the Blessed Mother, and I'm so glad that you exist and that you're doing what you're doing.
我会把你所有这些作品的链接放在下面，因为它们对我帮助很大。 I'm going to put the links to all of these products of yours below because they have been tremendously helpful to me.
但请告诉我们的观众一些他们应该了解马利亚的 东西，因为信不信由你，你只是触及了表面。 But just tell our viewers a couple of the things they should get to learn more about Mary, because believe it or not, you've just scratched the surface.
当然。 Absolutely.
《看哪，你的母亲：马利亚教义的圣经和历史辩护》是必备的。 Well, Behold Your Mother: A Biblical and Historical Defense of the Marian Doctrines is a must-get.
因为在这里我不仅处理四大教义，你知道，神的母亲，无原罪始胎，终 身童贞，被提升天，我还处理马利亚，共救主，中保，天地之王后。 Because here I deal with not just the big four, you know, the Mother of God, Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption, but I deal with Mary, Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Queen of Heaven and Earth.
你需要得到它。 You need to get it.
我告诉你一个小秘密。 And I'll tell you a little tidbit.
你可能不知道，马特，但这本书原本更长。 You may not know this, Matt, but the book was originally longer.
惊讶吧，它实际上更长。 Surprise, it was actually longer.
很多内容被删掉了，因为你知道，我们需要人们实际购买这本书。 A lot of it ended up on the cutting room floor because, you know, we had to have people actually buy the book.
所以我写了另一本《20个答案：马利亚》，里面有很多没有收入书中的内容。 So I wrote another, 20 Answers: Mary, that has a lot of the stuff that didn't get in the book.
但我处理诸如向马利亚祷告，玫瑰经，为什么我们做这些实践之类的事情。 But I deal with things like praying to Mary, the rosary, why do we do practices and things like that.
所以我真的推荐，而且《20个答案：马利亚》只要几美元。 So I really recommend, and it's only a couple bucks for the 20 Answers: Mary.
但我建议你得到这些。 But I'd recommend you get those.
它们真的相辅相成。 They really go hand in hand.
如果你喜欢MP3下载，喜欢听，我也有马利亚的系列，它们分为三部分。 And if you like MP3 downloads, if you like to listen, well, I also have the Mary sets, and they are in three parts.
我想我们有两个。 I think we have two.
我们给了你前两个，对吧？ We gave you the first two, right?
不，不是所有世代。 No, it's not all generations.
是……不是所有世代。 It's... It's not all generations.
我现在正在商店里看。 I'm looking right now on the store.
是的，我在想圣约瑟通讯的旧套装。 Yeah, I'm thinking of the older set at St. Joseph Communications.
是的，新夏娃，中保，和母亲。 Yeah, New Eve, Mediatrix, and Mother.
是的，那是其中之一。 Yeah, that's one of them.
然后，哦，还有几个。 And then, oh, here's a couple more.
你有《关于马利亚的福音真理》。 You have The Gospel Truth About Mary.
就是这个。 That's it.
然后是《关于马利亚的福音真理》第二卷，我想如果是C D形式的话，加起来有10张CD，如果我没记错的话。 And then The Gospel Truth About Mary, Volume 2, which I think adds up, if it were in CD form, to 10 CDs, if I'm not mistaken.
是的，是的，就是这个。 Yes, yes, that's it.
所以《关于马利亚的福音真理》。 So the Gospel Truth About Mary.
我多年前为特里·巴伯做过一个，叫做《万代要称她有福》，那个一直在我脑海中。 I had done one for Terry Barber years ago called All Generations Are Called to Be Blessed, and that one was stuck in my head.
但如果你喜欢听，如果你得到那三套，你就有大约16小时关于圣母马利亚的教导。 But if you like to listen, if you get those three sets, you've got about 16 hours of teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mary.
哦，天哪。 Oh, man.
荣耀归于神。 Glory to God.
好吧，我希望每个人都去买，那太好了。 Well, I want everyone to go out and buy them, and that's great.
网址是shop.catholic.com。 It's shop.catholic.com.
你不必买CD；它们都有MP3版本，你可以下载，在通勤或其他时候听。 You don't have to buy the CDs; they all have MP3 versions available, so you can just download them and listen to them on your commute or whatever.
这太好了。 So that's fantastic.
蒂姆，非常感谢你和我们在一起。 Tim, thank you so much for being with us.
太好了。 Great.
马特，随时欢迎，兄弟。 Matt, any time, brother.
保持联系。 Stay in touch.
再见。 See you.
好的，非常感谢你观看我和蒂姆·斯台普斯聊圣母的精彩节目。 Okay, thank you very much for watching this fantastic episode of me and Tim Staples chatting about the Blessed Mother.
正如我一开始承诺的，将有一个仅限赞助者的节目后总结部分，我 们讨论蒂姆认为最可信的显现，以及他对梅杜戈耶的真实看法。 As I promised in the beginning, there's going to be a post-show wrap-up segment for patrons only where we discuss Tim's, you know, what apparitions he finds most credible and his raw and unfiltered thoughts on Medjugorje.
如果你想观看，你只需成为赞助者，你本来就应该这样做，对吧？ If you want access to that, you just have to become a patron, which you should probably do anyway, right?
因为我们在推出很多精彩的内容。 Because we're putting out a lot of great stuff.
我们在做很多很棒的工作，这一切都需要资金。 We're doing a lot of great work, and it all costs money.
所以请访问patreon.com/mattfradd。 So just come to patreon.com/mattfradd.
看看我给你的所有回馈。 See all the free stuff I give you in return.
你将能观看我和新教徒卡梅伦·贝图齐之间的每月辩论。 You'll get access to monthly debates between me and Protestant Cameron Bertuzzi.
你将得到我签名的书。 You'll get a signed copy of my book.
你将收到邮寄给你的贴纸。 You'll get stickers sent to you in the mail.
你将收到我的视频反思。 You'll get video reflections from me.
你将能参加我们正在进行的不同课程。 You'll get access to different courses that we're doing.
我们即将开设奥古斯丁《忏悔录》的课程，只有你能参加。 We're about to do a course on Augustine's Confessions, which only you will have access to.
你还将能观看这些节目后总结视频。 And you'll also get access to these post-show wrap-up videos.
所以请查看：patreon.com/mattfradd。 So check it out: patreon.com/mattfradd.
每月5美元或10美元加入，看看你得到的所有回馈。 Join for $5 a month, $10 a month, and see all the free stuff you get in return.
我们将非常感激。 And we would really appreciate it.
非常感谢。 Thanks so much.
再见。 See ya.