- start: 3.612
  end: 6.594
  speaker: barron
  en: Perhaps the most difficult problem in theology is this.
  zh: 神学中最难解的问题可能就是这个。
- start: 8.695
  end: 10.776
  speaker: barron
  en: Why does God allow evil?
  zh: 神为什么允许邪恶存在？
- start: 17.44
  end: 24.825
  speaker: barron
  en: If God is all good, all-knowing, and all-powerful, why is the world so marked by pain and loss?
  zh: 如果神是全善、全知、全能的，为什么这个世界充满了痛苦和损失？
- start: 28.007
  end: 29.488
  speaker: barron
  en: These are not abstract questions.
  zh: 这些并非抽象的问题。
- start: 29.488
  end: 31.949
  speaker: barron
  en: They go right to the heart of our experience.
  zh: 它们直指我们经历的核心。
- start: 34.986
  end: 47.359
  speaker: barron
  en: The ultimate answer offered by Christianity is the cross of Jesus, which is God's entry into suffering itself, His transfiguration of evil from within.
  zh: 基督教提供的最终答案是耶稣的十字架，这是神亲自进入苦难，从内部改变邪恶。
- start: 60.37
  end: 62.912
  speaker: barron
  en: So we've seen what we mean when we use the word God.
  zh: 所以我们已经看到了我们使用神这个词时的含义。
- start: 62.912
  end: 67.136
  speaker: barron
  en: We've seen certain rational paths that lead toward God.
  zh: 我们看到了一些通向神的理性路径。
- start: 67.136
  end: 70.758
  speaker: barron
  en: We then looked at certain divine attributes, ways of naming God.
  zh: 然后我们看了一些神的属性，即称呼神的方式。
- start: 70.758
  end: 75.121
  speaker: barron
  en: We saw the tension between the anti-grasping and the anti-hiding names.
  zh: 我们看到了反把握和反隐藏的名称之间的张力。
- start: 75.402
  end: 85.033
  speaker: barron
  en: Now we turn to what I think is the single most difficult question in theology, which is how does God relate to the world?
  zh: 现在我们转向我认为是神学中最难的问题，那就是神如何与世界产生关系？
- start: 85.114
  end: 90.595
  speaker: barron
  en: And here we're talking about issues of divine providence, especially the problem of evil.
  zh: 在这里我们讨论的是神的护理问题，特别是邪恶的问题。
- start: 91.015
  end: 94.395
  speaker: barron
  en: This is where things get very complicated.
  zh: 这就是事情变得非常复杂的地方。
- start: 94.575
  end: 101.777
  speaker: barron
  en: And I think, to be fair, where the atheists have their strongest case is in regard to the problem of evil.
  zh: 我认为，公平地说，无神论者最有力的论点就在于邪恶的问题。
- start: 101.857
  end: 107.538
  speaker: barron
  en: I want to get at these questions with some care, realizing how central and significant they are.
  zh: 我想谨慎地探讨这些问题，因为我意识到它们是多么核心和重要。
- start: 108.826
  end: 115.41
  speaker: barron
  en: My point of departure is going to be question 22 in the first part of the Summa Theologiae of Thomas Aquinas.
  zh: 我的出发点将是托马斯·阿奎那《神学大全》第一部分的第22问。
- start: 115.41
  end: 120.373
  speaker: barron
  en: I think one of the best analyses of providence in the great tradition.
  zh: 我认为这是伟大传统中关于护理最好的分析之一。
- start: 121.494
  end: 124.556
  speaker: barron
  en: Thomas first asks, is providence fitting to God?
  zh: 托马斯首先问，护理是否适合神？
- start: 124.556
  end: 127.138
  speaker: barron
  en: Is providence something that God does?
  zh: 护理是神所做的事吗？
- start: 127.638
  end: 133.642
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, he looks at the history of the tradition, and he sees different responses to this.
  zh: 他回顾了传统的历史，看到了对此不同的回应。
- start: 133.906
  end: 137.027
  speaker: barron
  en: Some people in the philosophical tradition have said, there is no providence.
  zh: 哲学传统中有些人说，没有护理。
- start: 137.027
  end: 140.407
  speaker: barron
  en: I mean, things just happen dumbly by chance.
  zh: 我的意思是，事情只是愚蠢地偶然发生。
- start: 140.607
  end: 143.128
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of chaos theory today would be close to that.
  zh: 想想今天的混沌理论就接近这种观点。
- start: 143.128
  end: 144.968
  speaker: barron
  en: Things just dumbly happen.
  zh: 事情就是愚蠢地发生了。
- start: 145.408
  end: 151.09
  speaker: barron
  en: Some say, well, no, God is providential, but just over kind of high important areas of his creation.
  zh: 有些人说，不，神是有护理的，但只是在他创造的一些重要领域。
- start: 151.09
  end: 153.85
  speaker: barron
  en: He doesn't descend into particulars.
  zh: 他不会深入具体细节。
- start: 154.31
  end: 160.612
  speaker: barron
  en: I think here of, I'll date myself, but years ago when I was a kid watching the game of the week, and Joe Gargiola, remember that name?
  zh: 我想到了，我要暴露年龄了，但多年前我还是个孩子时看每周比赛，还有乔·加吉奥拉，记得这个名字吗？
- start: 160.952
  end: 162.152
  speaker: barron
  en: Baseball announcer?
  zh: 棒球解说员？
- start: 162.427
  end: 167.95
  speaker: barron
  en: And a player got to the plate, and he crossed himself before he got in the batter's box.
  zh: 一个球员走到打击板，在进入击球区之前画了个十字。
- start: 167.95
  end: 171.252
  speaker: barron
  en: And Joe Gargiola said, oh, come on, let God enjoy the game.
  zh: 乔·加吉奥拉说，得了吧，让神享受比赛吧。
- start: 173.033
  end: 176.175
  speaker: barron
  en: But his point was that God wouldn't descend into particulars like that.
  zh: 但他的观点是神不会深入这样的细节。
- start: 176.175
  end: 180.897
  speaker: barron
  en: I mean, maybe God is providential over high important areas, but not particulars.
  zh: 我的意思是，也许神对重要领域有护理，但不涉及细节。
- start: 180.897
  end: 183.678
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, here's Thomas Aquinas' very interesting answer.
  zh: 好，这是托马斯·阿奎那非常有趣的回答。
- start: 184.179
  end: 188.281
  speaker: barron
  en: He says, look, whatever is good in creation comes from God.
  zh: 他说，看，创造中一切美善都来自神。
- start: 189.068
  end: 196.83
  speaker: barron
  en: So the being of creatures is good, the activity of creatures is good, but also the ordering of things to their end is good.
  zh: 所以受造物的存在是美好的，受造物的活动是美好的，但事物朝向其目的的秩序也是美好的。
- start: 197.05
  end: 201.27
  speaker: barron
  en: So creatures don't just dumbly exist, but everything is moving towards some purpose.
  zh: 所以受造物不只是愚蠢地存在，而是一切都在朝着某个目的移动。
- start: 202.291
  end: 207.612
  speaker: barron
  en: The idea of that pre-existing in the mind of God is what we call providence.
  zh: 这种预先存在于神心中的想法就是我们所称的护理。
- start: 207.672
  end: 211.793
  speaker: barron
  en: That God knows how things should be directed to their end.
  zh: 神知道事物应该如何被引导到它们的终点。
- start: 211.793
  end: 215.193
  speaker: barron
  en: He has that in mind and places that within creatures.
  zh: 他心中有这个想法，并将其置于受造物之中。
- start: 216.054
  end: 218.594
  speaker: barron
  en: And so providence is fitting to God.
  zh: 因此，护理是适合神的。
- start: 218.607
  end: 219.988
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, more to it.
  zh: 现在，还有更多。
- start: 220.489
  end: 228.516
  speaker: barron
  en: God is not just a celestial CEO. You know, a CEO that just worries about the high important matters but doesn't worry about particulars.
  zh: 神不仅仅是个天上的总裁。你知道，一个只关心重要事务但不关心细节的总裁。
- start: 228.557
  end: 232.54
  speaker: barron
  en: No, Aquinas says, God's providence extends to particulars.
  zh: 不，阿奎那说，神的护理延伸到细节。
- start: 232.54
  end: 233.061
  speaker: barron
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 233.061
  end: 233.761
  speaker: barron
  en: Why?
  zh: 为什么？
- start: 234.462
  end: 237.164
  speaker: barron
  en: Because of the manner of God's causality.
  zh: 因为神的因果关系的方式。
- start: 237.885
  end: 238.946
  speaker: barron
  en: Think for a second.
  zh: 想一想。
- start: 239.907
  end: 239.907
  speaker: barron
  en: Think for a second.
  zh: 再想一想。
- start: 239.907
  end: 244.151
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, my causal influence is real right now, but very limited.
  zh: 现在，我的因果影响是真实的，但非常有限。
- start: 244.218
  end: 246.979
  speaker: barron
  en: What I mean is I'm having a causal influence on all of you.
  zh: 我的意思是我正在对你们所有人产生因果影响。
- start: 246.979
  end: 252.28
  speaker: barron
  en: I'm kind of compelling you for at least a few hours to think about the things of God.
  zh: 我在某种程度上强迫你们至少几个小时思考关于神的事。
- start: 252.66
  end: 258.781
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, in a few hours, we're all going to go our separate ways, and I'll have zero causal impact on you at that point.
  zh: 几个小时后，我们都会各自离开，那时我对你们就没有任何因果影响了。
- start: 258.781
  end: 260.522
  speaker: barron
  en: I don't affect your being in any way.
  zh: 我不会以任何方式影响你们的存在。
- start: 260.522
  end: 265.083
  speaker: barron
  en: I'm affecting in a very limited manner your attention span for a few hours.
  zh: 我只是在非常有限的程度上影响你们几个小时的注意力。
- start: 265.083
  end: 267.903
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, that's because I'm a very finite thing.
  zh: 好的，这是因为我是一个非常有限的存在。
- start: 268.704
  end: 269.984
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, consider God.
  zh: 现在，考虑神。
- start: 270.822
  end: 277.886
  speaker: barron
  en: God who is ipsum esse, the sheer act of to be itself, in and through which all things come to be and are maintained in being.
  zh: 神是存在本身，纯粹的存在行为，万物通过他而存在并维持存在。
- start: 278.087
  end: 281.489
  speaker: barron
  en: God's causal efficacy extends to everything.
  zh: 神的因果效力延伸到一切。
- start: 281.889
  end: 284.03
  speaker: barron
  en: Thomas cites the book of Wisdom here.
  zh: 托马斯在这里引用了智慧书。
- start: 284.851
  end: 292.996
  speaker: barron
  en: God's wisdom orders all things sweetly and stretches from end to end mightily.
  zh: 神的智慧甜美地安排一切，有力地从一端延伸到另一端。
- start: 293.377
  end: 300.331
  speaker: barron
  en: It's lovely, by the way, that God's stretching from end to end, ordering all things sweetly, mind you.
  zh: 顺便说一句，神从一端延伸到另一端，甜美地安排一切，这是多么可爱啊。
- start: 300.331
  end: 305.294
  speaker: barron
  en: Not invasively, not interruptively, but sweetly ordering all things.
  zh: 不是侵入性地，不是打断性地，而是甜美地安排一切。
- start: 305.515
  end: 311.138
  speaker: barron
  en: And so God's providence exists, and it extends to particulars.
  zh: 因此，神的护理存在，并延伸到细节。
- start: 311.779
  end: 314.921
  speaker: barron
  en: Whenever I give a retreat, by the way, I usually begin with that line.
  zh: 顺便说一下，每当我主持退修会时，我通常以那句话开始。
- start: 314.921
  end: 320.705
  speaker: barron
  en: And I'll say, you know, the fact that we're gathered right now in this room is part of God's providence.
  zh: 我会说，你知道，我们此刻聚集在这个房间里的事实就是神护理的一部分。
- start: 321.566
  end: 322.947
  speaker: barron
  en: Oh, God doesn't care about us.
  zh: 哦，神不关心我们。
- start: 322.947
  end: 325.629
  speaker: barron
  en: I mean, he's worrying about high important things.
  zh: 我是说，他在担心那些重要的事情。
- start: 325.629
  end: 326.349
  speaker: barron
  en: No, no.
  zh: 不，不。
- start: 326.633
  end: 332.818
  speaker: barron
  en: Right now, all of us in this room, we're ingredient in God's providential plan and action.
  zh: 此刻，我们在这个房间里的所有人，都是神护理计划和行动中的一部分。
- start: 332.959
  end: 334.4
  speaker: barron
  en: That's Aquinas' point.
  zh: 这就是阿奎那的观点。
- start: 336.302
  end: 339.545
  speaker: barron
  en: Using a favorite trope, Aquinas says that God is like an artist.
  zh: 阿奎那用一个喜欢的比喻说，神就像一个艺术家。
- start: 339.545
  end: 341.146
  speaker: barron
  en: It's really helpful here.
  zh: 这在这里真的很有帮助。
- start: 342.027
  end: 344.449
  speaker: barron
  en: Think, for example, of the artist who made these windows.
  zh: 比如，想想制作这些窗户的艺术家。
- start: 344.449
  end: 349.673
  speaker: barron
  en: He's a wonderful fellow from Milwaukee, and he designed every one of these windows.
  zh: 他是一位来自密尔沃基的出色人物，他设计了这里的每一扇窗户。
- start: 349.974
  end: 351.395
  speaker: barron
  en: Look at all the detail.
  zh: 看看所有的细节。
- start: 352.142
  end: 357.364
  speaker: barron
  en: All the detail in the figures and the symbolism, the coloration, the design, everything.
  zh: 人物和象征中的所有细节，色彩，设计，一切。
- start: 357.485
  end: 360.486
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, he was involved in all of it.
  zh: 嗯，他参与了所有这些。
- start: 360.947
  end: 362.487
  speaker: barron
  en: He planned the whole thing.
  zh: 他计划了整个事情。
- start: 362.487
  end: 367.55
  speaker: barron
  en: There's no aspect of any of these windows, even the little tiny details, that he wasn't concerned with.
  zh: 这些窗户的每个方面，即使是最微小的细节，他都关心。
- start: 368.23
  end: 374.853
  speaker: barron
  en: Or think of a Dickens novel, you know, sprawling and complex and with hundreds of characters.
  zh: 或者想想狄更斯的小说，你知道，庞大复杂，有数百个角色。
- start: 374.914
  end: 381.717
  speaker: barron
  en: But yet Dickens was directly and personally involved in the writing of every aspect of that story.
  zh: 但狄更斯直接亲自参与了那个故事每个方面的写作。
- start: 382.612
  end: 385.114
  speaker: barron
  en: So, Aquinas says, God is an artist.
  zh: 所以，阿奎那说，神是一位艺术家。
- start: 385.114
  end: 386.375
  speaker: barron
  en: What's his canvas?
  zh: 他的画布是什么？
- start: 386.375
  end: 388.656
  speaker: barron
  en: All of space and all of time.
  zh: 所有的空间和所有的时间。
- start: 388.796
  end: 391.338
  speaker: barron
  en: Is God indifferent to any aspect of it?
  zh: 神对其中的任何方面都无动于衷吗？
- start: 391.338
  end: 398.963
  speaker: barron
  en: No. But like an artist, carefully designing and creating every detail of what he's made.
  zh: 不。但像一个艺术家一样，仔细设计和创造他所造的每一个细节。
- start: 399.284
  end: 403.166
  speaker: barron
  en: That's the modality of God's providence.
  zh: 这就是神护理的方式。
- start: 404.628
  end: 412.613
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, so once we see that, objections naturally arise, and Thomas entertains two in particular that I think are very important.
  zh: 好的，一旦我们看到这一点，自然会出现反对意见，托马斯特别考虑了两个我认为非常重要的反对意见。
- start: 413.49
  end: 427.181
  speaker: barron
  en: First of all, people say, look, if everything is subject to God's providence, every particular, how do you begin to explain things like luck or chance, or things just happening by accident?
  zh: 首先，人们说，看，如果一切都受神的护理支配，每个细节都是，你如何开始解释运气或偶然，或事情只是意外发生？
- start: 427.361
  end: 428.843
  speaker: barron
  en: That's the way the ball bounces.
  zh: 这就是球弹跳的方式。
- start: 428.843
  end: 431.464
  speaker: barron
  en: Oh, no, everything's been determined by God.
  zh: 哦，不，一切都是神决定的。
- start: 432.245
  end: 433.667
  speaker: barron
  en: What about luck and chance?
  zh: 那运气和偶然呢？
- start: 433.667
  end: 437.669
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, here's a very important distinction Thomas makes, and a lot will hinge on it.
  zh: 好，这里是托马斯做出的一个非常重要的区分，很多东西都取决于此。
- start: 437.99
  end: 446.108
  speaker: barron
  en: He says, in regard to particular causes, we can and should talk about accident, luck, or chance.
  zh: 他说，就特定原因而言，我们可以也应该谈论意外、运气或偶然。
- start: 446.308
  end: 456.696
  speaker: barron
  en: Let's say, for example, we're planning a bonfire, but bad luck, it rained, and so the rain interferes with the wood, we can't have the bonfire, bad luck.
  zh: 比如说，我们计划生篝火，但运气不好，下雨了，雨水影响了木柴，我们不能生篝火了，真倒霉。
- start: 457.176
  end: 464.621
  speaker: barron
  en: Thomas says, only by the intervention of another competing cause can one cause's efficacy be affected.
  zh: 托马斯说，只有通过另一个竞争原因的干预，一个原因的效力才会受到影响。
- start: 464.802
  end: 471.867
  speaker: barron
  en: And so we can and should talk about luck and happenstance in regard to the ordinary nexus of conditioned things.
  zh: 因此，我们可以也应该在有关条件事物的普通联系方面谈论运气和偶然。
- start: 472.742
  end: 490.993
  speaker: barron
  en: However, when invoking the ultimate cause, the cause of the to-be-itself of the universe, we're talking about God now, now we shouldn't talk about luck and chance or happenstance, but we should see all things as ingredients in the providence of that ultimate cause.
  zh: 然而，当涉及到终极原因，即宇宙存在本身的原因时，我们现在谈论的是神，我们就不应该谈论运气、偶然或巧合，而应该将所有事物视为那终极原因的护理中的组成部分。
- start: 491.394
  end: 492.694
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, I know it's very abstract.
  zh: 好的，我知道这很抽象。
- start: 492.694
  end: 494.875
  speaker: barron
  en: Let me try to make it concrete with an example.
  zh: 让我试着用一个例子来具体说明。
- start: 495.476
  end: 497.417
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a beautiful day today, right?
  zh: 今天是个美好的日子，对吧？
- start: 497.537
  end: 500.599
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, Chicagoans here, you know Tom Skilling, don't you?
  zh: 现在，在座的芝加哥人，你们知道汤姆·斯基林吧？
- start: 500.932
  end: 509.116
  speaker: barron
  en: For the sake of those who'll be watching later, Tom Skilling is a wonderful weatherman on Channel 9, WGN. And I always think of Tom Skilling as like a weather monk.
  zh: 为了那些以后会观看的人，汤姆·斯基林是第9频道WGN的一位出色的天气预报员。我总是把汤姆·斯基林看作是一个天气僧侣。
- start: 509.116
  end: 515.16
  speaker: barron
  en: You know, he's just dedicated his whole life to the weather, and he loves the weather.
  zh: 你知道，他把一生都献给了天气，他热爱天气。
- start: 515.16
  end: 516.54
  speaker: barron
  en: You know, it's just so obvious.
  zh: 你知道，这太明显了。
- start: 516.54
  end: 523.844
  speaker: barron
  en: I've had the privilege of meeting him a couple of times when I've been down at WGN, and he's just a very sweet guy and seems to love what he does, loves the weather.
  zh: 我有幸在WGN遇到过他几次，他是个非常可爱的人，似乎热爱他所做的事，热爱天气。
- start: 523.844
  end: 527.746
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, Tom gives the most thorough weather report you'll ever want.
  zh: 好的，汤姆给出的是你能想要的最详尽的天气报告。
- start: 528.03
  end: 531.731
  speaker: barron
  en: So, he'll come on tonight to explain why it's a beautiful day today.
  zh: 所以，他今晚会出现解释为什么今天是个美好的日子。
- start: 531.731
  end: 536.572
  speaker: barron
  en: And he'll speak of probably a dome of high pressure coming from Canada.
  zh: 他可能会说到来自加拿大的高压气团。
- start: 536.572
  end: 539.093
  speaker: barron
  en: He'll probably speak of something coming up from the Gulf of Mexico.
  zh: 他可能会说到从墨西哥湾上来的某些东西。
- start: 539.093
  end: 541.614
  speaker: barron
  en: He'll talk about the jet stream.
  zh: 他会谈到急流。
- start: 541.614
  end: 545.195
  speaker: barron
  en: You know, he'll go through all the causes that produce this day.
  zh: 你知道，他会讲述所有造成这一天的原因。
- start: 546.575
  end: 553.257
  speaker: barron
  en: But could I stand next to Tom Skilling and say, I also want to thank God for this beautiful day?
  zh: 但我能站在汤姆·斯基林旁边说，我也想感谢神赐予这美好的一天吗？
- start: 553.577
  end: 555.098
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, the answer to that is yes.
  zh: 嗯，答案是可以。
- start: 555.098
  end: 557.078
  speaker: barron
  en: But notice now, Tom has a distinction.
  zh: 但现在注意，汤姆有一个区别。
- start: 557.535
  end: 559.598
  speaker: barron
  en: What wouldn't Tom Skilling say?
  zh: 汤姆·斯基林不会说什么？
- start: 559.598
  end: 567.627
  speaker: barron
  en: He wouldn't come on and say, well, it's beautiful today because of the high pressure from Canada, because of God, and because of the jet stream.
  zh: 他不会出来说，嗯，今天天气很好是因为来自加拿大的高压，因为神，还因为急流。
- start: 568.348
  end: 576.178
  speaker: barron
  en: See, what I'm saying is he wouldn't include God correctly as one of the competing causes in the nexus of conditioned causes.
  zh: 看，我的意思是他不会正确地将神包括在条件原因网络中的一个竞争原因。
- start: 576.178
  end: 577.519
  speaker: barron
  en: He'd name all the conditioned causes.
  zh: 他会列举所有的条件原因。
- start: 581.636
  end: 582.616
  speaker: barron
  en: God is invoked.
  zh: 神是被召唤的。
- start: 582.616
  end: 585.978
  speaker: barron
  en: Think now of that whole collection of conditioned causes.
  zh: 现在想想那整个条件原因的集合。
- start: 585.978
  end: 590.519
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, put a great big triangle around that, symbolizing God's influence.
  zh: 现在，在那周围画一个大三角形，象征神的影响。
- start: 591.499
  end: 595.16
  speaker: barron
  en: God is responsible for the whole shebang.
  zh: 神对整个事情负责。
- start: 595.341
  end: 605.504
  speaker: barron
  en: He's responsible for the fact that there is a planet Earth, the fact that there is a jet stream at all, the fact that there is this range of conditions at all.
  zh: 他负责地球的存在，负责急流的存在，负责这一切条件范围的存在。
- start: 607.005
  end: 608.565
  speaker: barron
  en: How do you make a cherry pie?
  zh: 你如何制作樱桃派？
- start: 609.221
  end: 615.847
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, cherries and butter, I guess, or whatever, and the heat of the oven, the skill of the baker.
  zh: 嗯，樱桃和黄油，我猜，或者其他什么，还有烤箱的热度，面包师的技巧。
- start: 616.848
  end: 618.99
  speaker: barron
  en: You're understanding now I'm not a cook.
  zh: 你现在明白我不是厨师了。
- start: 619.11
  end: 623.394
  speaker: barron
  en: But you'd list the various elements that go into making a cherry pie.
  zh: 但你会列出制作樱桃派所需的各种元素。
- start: 623.535
  end: 628.379
  speaker: barron
  en: You'd never say, well, cherries, the heat of the oven, God, the skill of the baker, right?
  zh: 你永远不会说，嗯，樱桃、烤箱的热度、神、面包师的技巧，对吧？
- start: 628.76
  end: 634.905
  speaker: barron
  en: But God is the condition for the possibility of that collection of conditioned causes.
  zh: 但神是那些条件原因集合存在可能性的条件。
- start: 634.992
  end: 637.314
  speaker: barron
  en: And so, again, what do you see here, everybody?
  zh: 所以，再次，大家在这里看到了什么？
- start: 637.314
  end: 640.876
  speaker: barron
  en: You see the non-competitive causality of God.
  zh: 你看到了神的非竞争性因果关系。
- start: 640.976
  end: 645.899
  speaker: barron
  en: That God can be involved in the totality of things, but in a non-competitive way.
  zh: 神可以参与事物的整体，但以非竞争的方式。
- start: 646.48
  end: 654.646
  speaker: barron
  en: So that we can say, yes, there are these particular causes that contribute, but God is the overarching or universal cause.
  zh: 所以我们可以说，是的，有这些特定的原因在起作用，但神是总体的或普遍的原因。
- start: 654.746
  end: 660.49
  speaker: barron
  en: That's why John Paul II says, for people of faith, there are no coincidences.
  zh: 这就是为什么若望保禄二世说，对于有信仰的人来说，没有巧合。
- start: 660.811
  end: 661.872
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a very interesting thing.
  zh: 这是一件非常有趣的事。
- start: 661.872
  end: 666.939
  speaker: barron
  en: For people of faith who understand God's involvement, there are no real coincidences.
  zh: 对于理解神参与的有信仰的人来说，没有真正的巧合。
- start: 667.6
  end: 675.21
  speaker: barron
  en: Thomas Aquinas uses the image of a king on the top of a hill, and he orders one servant to go this way, the other servant to go that way on separate missions.
  zh: 托马斯·阿奎那用山顶上的国王的形象，他命令一个仆人往这边走，另一个仆人往那边走，执行不同的任务。
- start: 675.271
  end: 677.974
  speaker: barron
  en: His ultimate purpose is the servants might meet.
  zh: 他的最终目的是让仆人们可能相遇。
- start: 678.208
  end: 681.609
  speaker: barron
  en: But as far as the servants know, they both have particular missions.
  zh: 但就仆人们所知，他们都有特定的任务。
- start: 681.609
  end: 684.91
  speaker: barron
  en: They have no idea they'll meet each other, on the bottom of the hill.
  zh: 他们不知道他们会在山脚下相遇。
- start: 684.91
  end: 687.051
  speaker: barron
  en: And they say, what a wonderful surprise.
  zh: 他们说，多么美妙的惊喜。
- start: 687.051
  end: 688.911
  speaker: barron
  en: What a happy accident that we meet.
  zh: 我们相遇真是个快乐的意外。
- start: 688.911
  end: 691.332
  speaker: barron
  en: And indeed, that would be true from their perspective.
  zh: 从他们的角度来看，这确实是真的。
- start: 691.332
  end: 695.433
  speaker: barron
  en: Yet the king always knew his purpose was they might meet.
  zh: 然而国王一直知道他的目的是让他们可能相遇。
- start: 695.654
  end: 698.734
  speaker: barron
  en: That's his example of how this thing plays itself out.
  zh: 这就是他举的例子，说明这件事是如何展开的。
- start: 698.815
  end: 702.196
  speaker: barron
  en: And that's his response to the objection.
  zh: 这就是他对反对意见的回应。
- start: 702.416
  end: 706.577
  speaker: barron
  en: When I mention John Paul, one of my heroes, I think of another hero of mine, Bob Dylan.
  zh: 当我提到若望保禄，我的一个英雄时，我想到了我的另一个英雄，鲍勃·迪伦。
- start: 706.85
  end: 717.394
  speaker: barron
  en: And Bob Dylan has this line, we're hanging in the balance of a perfect finished plan, like every sparrow fallen, like every grain of sand.
  zh: 鲍勃·迪伦有这样一句话，我们悬挂在一个完美完成的计划的平衡中，就像每一只坠落的麻雀，就像每一粒沙子。
- start: 717.394
  end: 718.915
  speaker: barron
  en: It's exactly John Paul's point.
  zh: 这正是若望保禄的观点。
- start: 718.915
  end: 720.756
  speaker: barron
  en: It's exactly Thomas Aquinas' point.
  zh: 这正是托马斯·阿奎那的观点。
- start: 721.476
  end: 728.719
  speaker: barron
  en: We're hanging in the balance, all of us, of a perfect finished plan, like every sparrow fallen, like every grain of sand.
  zh: 我们所有人都悬挂在一个完美完成的计划的平衡中，就像每一只坠落的麻雀，就像每一粒沙子。
- start: 728.879
  end: 732.04
  speaker: barron
  en: That's someone with a sense of divine providence.
  zh: 这是一个对神的护理有感知的人。
- start: 733.141
  end: 748.405
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, the second objection to this view, that God is providential over all things, brings us to the heart of the most difficult question in all of theology, and as I suggested, to the most powerful objection to belief in God.
  zh: 现在，对这种观点的第二个反对意见，即神对万物都有护理，把我们带到了神学中最困难问题的核心，也如我所说，带到了对信仰神最有力的反对意见。
- start: 748.405
  end: 751.767
  speaker: barron
  en: Here's the way the objection is framed.
  zh: 这就是这个反对意见的表述方式。
- start: 753.269
  end: 759.253
  speaker: barron
  en: A wise provider excludes any defect from his work as much as he can.
  zh: 一个明智的供应者会尽可能地排除他工作中的任何缺陷。
- start: 760.63
  end: 762.331
  speaker: barron
  en: I'm the rector of Mundelein Seminary.
  zh: 我是芒德莱恩神学院的院长。
- start: 762.331
  end: 766.872
  speaker: barron
  en: My job is to exclude as many defects as I can from Mundelein Seminary.
  zh: 我的工作是尽可能地排除芒德莱恩神学院的缺陷。
- start: 766.992
  end: 770.793
  speaker: barron
  en: If I allow a lot of defects, I'm a bad rector.
  zh: 如果我允许很多缺陷存在，我就是个糟糕的院长。
- start: 771.593
  end: 775.534
  speaker: barron
  en: But, there are many defects in the realm of creation.
  zh: 但是，在创造的领域里存在许多缺陷。
- start: 776.535
  end: 787.578
  speaker: barron
  en: Thus, either God's not able to hinder these, but that seems to fly in the face of his omnipotence, or God does not have immediate care over his creation.
  zh: 因此，要么神无法阻止这些缺陷，但这似乎与他的全能相矛盾，要么神并没有直接照顾他的创造。
- start: 788.413
  end: 789.534
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a good argument, by the way.
  zh: 顺便说一下，这是一个很好的论点。
- start: 789.534
  end: 790.995
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a very good objection.
  zh: 这是一个非常好的反对意见。
- start: 791.395
  end: 796.939
  speaker: barron
  en: You know how, in the 19th century, John Stuart Mill, the English philosopher, wrote an epithely.
  zh: 你知道在19世纪，英国哲学家约翰·斯图尔特·密尔写了一篇墓志铭。
- start: 797.28
  end: 807.328
  speaker: barron
  en: Mill said, if evil exists, and it surely does, then God cannot be simultaneously omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent.
  zh: 密尔说，如果邪恶存在，而它确实存在，那么神就不可能同时是全知、全能和全善的。
- start: 807.989
  end: 811.551
  speaker: barron
  en: If evil exists, and God is all three of those things, it doesn't make any sense.
  zh: 如果邪恶存在，而神具备这三个特质，那就说不通了。
- start: 811.652
  end: 813.713
  speaker: barron
  en: If he's omniscient, he'd know about it.
  zh: 如果他是全知的，他就会知道。
- start: 814.469
  end: 816.811
  speaker: barron
  en: Omnipotent, he could do something about it.
  zh: 全能的，他就能做些什么。
- start: 816.931
  end: 820.394
  speaker: barron
  en: Omnibenevolent, he'd want to do something about it, right?
  zh: 全善的，他就会想做些什么，对吧？
- start: 820.655
  end: 824.137
  speaker: barron
  en: So, if all three of those things obtain, how could there be evil?
  zh: 所以，如果这三个特质都存在，怎么可能还有邪恶？
- start: 825.058
  end: 827.62
  speaker: barron
  en: Therefore, if there is evil, there's no God.
  zh: 因此，如果存在邪恶，就没有神。
- start: 828.321
  end: 830.463
  speaker: barron
  en: Again, darn good argument.
  zh: 再说一遍，这是个该死的好论点。
- start: 830.463
  end: 835.747
  speaker: barron
  en: And I'll give the atheists, it's the best argument against God there is, is the problem of evil, the problem of suffering.
  zh: 我承认无神论者的观点，这是反对神存在的最好论点，就是邪恶的问题，苦难的问题。
- start: 837.289
  end: 839.571
  speaker: barron
  en: What does Thomas Aquinas say to this?
  zh: 托马斯·阿奎那对此怎么说？
- start: 841.101
  end: 856.033
  speaker: barron
  en: And here, it's from Augustine, it's a classical response of our tradition, that God is so wise, good, and powerful that he permits certain evils to bring about goods that would not exist otherwise.
  zh: 这里，来自奥古斯丁的观点，是我们传统的经典回应，神是如此智慧、良善和强大，以至于他允许某些邪恶存在，以带来否则不会存在的善。
- start: 856.814
  end: 865.2
  speaker: barron
  en: God is so powerful, good, and wise that he permits certain evil to bring out goods that would not otherwise exist.
  zh: 神是如此强大、良善和智慧，以至于他允许某些邪恶存在，以带出否则不会存在的善。
- start: 865.501
  end: 867.141
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, example.
  zh: 现在，举个例子。
- start: 867.262
  end: 870.722
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, maybe first a clarification about God's permission of evil.
  zh: 好吧，也许首先要澄清一下神允许邪恶存在的问题。
- start: 870.722
  end: 872.323
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a very important move.
  zh: 这是一个非常重要的转折。
- start: 872.824
  end: 875.586
  speaker: barron
  en: God doesn't cause evil or create evil.
  zh: 神不造成邪恶或创造邪恶。
- start: 875.586
  end: 876.387
  speaker: barron
  en: Why not?
  zh: 为什么不？
- start: 876.527
  end: 878.268
  speaker: barron
  en: Because evil isn't a thing.
  zh: 因为邪恶不是一个实体。
- start: 879.069
  end: 880.37
  speaker: barron
  en: Augustine saw this.
  zh: 奥古斯丁看到了这一点。
- start: 880.37
  end: 885.094
  speaker: barron
  en: Evil is a privatio boni, a privation of the good.
  zh: 邪恶是善的缺失，是对善的剥夺。
- start: 885.515
  end: 888.877
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a lack or an absence of a good that ought to be there.
  zh: 它是本应存在的善的缺失或不在场。
- start: 888.938
  end: 890.959
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of a cavity in a tooth.
  zh: 想想牙齿中的蛀洞。
- start: 890.959
  end: 893.321
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of blindness in an eye, right?
  zh: 想想眼睛的失明，对吧？
- start: 893.321
  end: 895.823
  speaker: barron
  en: It's the lack of a good that ought to be there.
  zh: 它是本应存在的善的缺失。
- start: 896.164
  end: 901.386
  speaker: barron
  en: And therefore, it's always incorrect to talk about someone creating evil as though it's a thing.
  zh: 因此，谈论某人创造邪恶好像它是一个实体总是不正确的。
- start: 901.666
  end: 906.508
  speaker: barron
  en: Or seeing evil as a force opposing the good.
  zh: 或者将邪恶视为与善对抗的力量。
- start: 906.568
  end: 908.849
  speaker: barron
  en: No, it's always parasitic upon the good.
  zh: 不，它总是寄生于善。
- start: 908.849
  end: 910.73
  speaker: barron
  en: It's a defect of the good.
  zh: 它是善的缺陷。
- start: 910.95
  end: 914.591
  speaker: barron
  en: That's why we talk about God's permission of it, not creation of it.
  zh: 这就是为什么我们谈论神允许它存在，而不是创造它。
- start: 914.912
  end: 917.592
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, but that still begs the question.
  zh: 好的，但这仍然回避了问题。
- start: 918.473
  end: 920.814
  speaker: barron
  en: Why would God permit such a thing?
  zh: 为什么神会允许这样的事情？
- start: 920.814
  end: 924.015
  speaker: barron
  en: Why would God permit such a defect in his creation?
  zh: 为什么神会允许他的创造中存在这样的缺陷？
- start: 925.186
  end: 928.808
  speaker: barron
  en: To bring about goods that would not otherwise exist.
  zh: 为了带来否则不会存在的善。
- start: 928.948
  end: 932.05
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, let me give you a couple examples from Aquinas, then I'll give some of my own.
  zh: 现在，让我给你举几个阿奎那的例子，然后我会给出一些我自己的例子。
- start: 933.191
  end: 938.174
  speaker: barron
  en: Thomas talks about, I mentioned them earlier actually, the lion and the antelope.
  zh: 托马斯谈到，我实际上之前提到过，狮子和羚羊。
- start: 939.235
  end: 943.897
  speaker: barron
  en: Imagine now, a hungry lion hasn't eaten for days.
  zh: 现在想象，一只饥饿的狮子已经好几天没吃东西了。
- start: 944.398
  end: 946.179
  speaker: barron
  en: Suddenly sees an antelope.
  zh: 突然看到一只羚羊。
- start: 946.839
  end: 949.861
  speaker: barron
  en: What would he say if he had a mind like ours?
  zh: 如果他有像我们一样的思维，他会说什么？
- start: 950.101
  end: 954.183
  speaker: barron
  en: He'd say, thank God for sending me this antelope.
  zh: 他会说，感谢神给我送来这只羚羊。
- start: 954.244
  end: 954.924
  speaker: barron
  en: Right?
  zh: 对吧？
- start: 956.463
  end: 957.843
  speaker: barron
  en: Now you're the antelope.
  zh: 现在你是那只羚羊。
- start: 957.964
  end: 962.466
  speaker: barron
  en: And you've been wandering around and suddenly there's this hungry lion looking at you.
  zh: 你一直在四处游荡，突然有一只饥饿的狮子在看着你。
- start: 962.466
  end: 964.907
  speaker: barron
  en: If the antelope had a mind like ours, what would he say?
  zh: 如果羚羊有像我们一样的思维，它会说什么？
- start: 965.087
  end: 968.208
  speaker: barron
  en: Why, oh God, have you allowed this to happen?
  zh: 为什么，哦神啊，你允许这种事发生？
- start: 969.289
  end: 977.072
  speaker: barron
  en: You see, Aquinas' point is in a finite conflictual world, certain goods cannot exist apart from certain evils.
  zh: 你看，阿奎那的观点是在一个有限的冲突世界中，某些善不能脱离某些恶而存在。
- start: 977.193
  end: 981.116
  speaker: barron
  en: It's also signaling, if you want, a certain relativity in regard to evil.
  zh: 如果你愿意的话，这也表明了关于邪恶的某种相对性。
- start: 981.116
  end: 993.885
  speaker: barron
  en: I don't mean in any way to denigrate evil or say it's not important, but to notice a certain relativity of good and evil depending on the perspective, the lions or the antelopes.
  zh: 我绝不是要贬低邪恶或说它不重要，而是要注意到善恶的某种相对性，这取决于视角，是狮子还是羚羊的视角。
- start: 994.666
  end: 1000.33
  speaker: barron
  en: Here's another one from Aquinas, which I know is a bit troubling, but it's interesting to think about.
  zh: 这是阿奎那的另一个例子，我知道这有点令人不安，但思考起来很有趣。
- start: 1000.711
  end: 1008.513
  speaker: barron
  en: He says, without the cruelty of the tyrant, there would be no virtue of the martyr.
  zh: 他说，没有暴君的残酷，就没有殉道者的美德。
- start: 1009.734
  end: 1012.194
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of a martyr whom we admire legitimately.
  zh: 想想我们正当地敬佩的殉道者。
- start: 1012.194
  end: 1018.275
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of him in these windows, Maxine Colbert over there, or Edith Stein, both of whom died at Auschwitz.
  zh: 想想这些窗户上的他们，那边的马克西姆·科尔伯特，或者埃迪特·斯坦因，他们都死在奥斯维辛。
- start: 1019.516
  end: 1030.818
  speaker: barron
  en: Now I know, I don't want this to sound glib, and it can sound glib, but no Hitler, no Edith Stein, no Hitler, no Maxine Colbert.
  zh: 我知道，我不想让这听起来轻率，它可能听起来很轻率，但没有希特勒，就没有埃迪特·斯坦因，没有希特勒，就没有马克西姆·科尔伯特。
- start: 1031.878
  end: 1038.322
  speaker: barron
  en: That particular form of the good would not have existed were it not for, admittedly, a great evil.
  zh: 如果不是因为一个公认的大恶，那种特殊形式的善就不会存在。
- start: 1039.143
  end: 1041.945
  speaker: barron
  en: Does that explain Hitler, justify Hitler?
  zh: 这能解释希特勒，为希特勒辩护吗？
- start: 1041.945
  end: 1042.865
  speaker: barron
  en: No, no, no.
  zh: 不，不，不。
- start: 1042.945
  end: 1049.149
  speaker: barron
  en: But perhaps it's a ray of light of how God can work in allowing certain evils.
  zh: 但也许这是神如何在允许某些邪恶中工作的一线光明。
- start: 1049.73
  end: 1053.292
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, can we see this sometimes?
  zh: 现在，我们有时能看到这一点吗？
- start: 1053.292
  end: 1054.273
  speaker: barron
  en: Yeah, I think so.
  zh: 是的，我想是的。
- start: 1054.273
  end: 1067.359
  speaker: barron
  en: Sometimes we can see, you know, if that bad thing had not happened to me, I would never have, now fill in the blank, met him, met her, had this experience, done this or that, realized this or that about myself.
  zh: 有时我们能看到，你知道，如果那件坏事没有发生在我身上，我就永远不会，现在填空，遇见他，遇见她，有这种经历，做这个或那个，意识到自己的这个或那个。
- start: 1067.68
  end: 1075.424
  speaker: barron
  en: Sometimes we can see this principle working, God permitting suffering or evil to bring about a good that wouldn't exist otherwise.
  zh: 有时我们能看到这个原则在起作用，神允许苦难或邪恶存在，以带来否则不会存在的善。
- start: 1076.105
  end: 1077.446
  speaker: barron
  en: We can see it sometimes.
  zh: 我们有时能看到它。
- start: 1081.548
  end: 1083.489
  speaker: barron
  en: No Edith Stein and Colbert.
  zh: 没有埃迪特·斯坦因和科尔伯特。
- start: 1083.67
  end: 1085.811
  speaker: barron
  en: No Hitler, no martyr.
  zh: 没有希特勒，就没有殉道者。
- start: 1087.452
  end: 1090.934
  speaker: barron
  en: But very often, everybody, we can't see it.
  zh: 但是很多时候，大家，我们看不到它。
- start: 1091.366
  end: 1096.15
  speaker: barron
  en: Even as we acknowledge the truth of the principle, we can't see how it's working.
  zh: 即使我们承认这个原则的真实性，我们也看不到它是如何运作的。
- start: 1096.25
  end: 1099.532
  speaker: barron
  en: And with that, we turn to the great book of Job.
  zh: 说到这里，我们转向伟大的约伯记。
- start: 1099.773
  end: 1114.985
  speaker: barron
  en: I tell my students here, I'd like pastoral people to memorize the book of Job because it's the greatest Old Testament wrestling and the basic story is that Job is visited with every possible suffering.
  zh: 我告诉我的学生，我希望牧者们能记住约伯记，因为它是旧约中最伟大的挣扎，基本故事是约伯经历了每一种可能的苦难。
- start: 1115.702
  end: 1123.589
  speaker: barron
  en: In one fell swoop, he loses his children, his family, his livelihood, his business, his friends, his health, everything.
  zh: 一下子，他失去了他的孩子、家庭、生计、事业、朋友、健康，一切。
- start: 1124.611
  end: 1131.797
  speaker: barron
  en: Mrs. Job, who makes one of the great one-liner cameo appearances, comes upon the scene and says, why don't you just curse God and die?
  zh: 约伯的妻子，她做了一个伟大的单句客串出场，来到现场说，你为什么不干脆咒诅神，死了算了？
- start: 1131.857
  end: 1135.68
  speaker: barron
  en: She's not going to win any awards for pastoral sensitivity.
  zh: 她不会因为牧者的敏感度而赢得任何奖项。
- start: 1139.815
  end: 1153.222
  speaker: barron
  en: Her friends famously come and try to explain to him why this has been happening to him and they get nowhere with him and Job dismisses them and finally calls God into the dock as we're all tempted to do in the face of great suffering.
  zh: 她的朋友们著名地来试图向他解释为什么这些事会发生在他身上，但他们无法说服他，约伯驳回了他们，最后把神叫到被告席上，就像我们在面对巨大苦难时都会被诱惑做的那样。
- start: 1153.923
  end: 1160.726
  speaker: barron
  en: What this question is doing today, why, why, Lord, why would you permit this?
  zh: 这个问题今天在做什么，为什么，为什么，主啊，你为什么允许这样的事？
- start: 1161.307
  end: 1164.168
  speaker: barron
  en: And then, I'll just read a little bit of God's famous answer.
  zh: 然后，我就读一点神著名的回答。
- start: 1164.168
  end: 1169.085
  speaker: barron
  en: By the way, the longest single speech by God in the Bible.
  zh: 顺便说一下，这是圣经中神最长的单独讲话。
- start: 1169.085
  end: 1172.046
  speaker: barron
  en: The longest single speech that God gives in the Bible.
  zh: 这是神在圣经中给出的最长的单独讲话。
- start: 1173.386
  end: 1176.147
  speaker: barron
  en: Then the Lord addressed Job out of the storm.
  zh: 然后，主从风暴中对约伯说话。
- start: 1176.147
  end: 1178.507
  speaker: barron
  en: Some translations have whirlwind.
  zh: 一些译本用旋风。
- start: 1179.187
  end: 1183.448
  speaker: barron
  en: Watch the Coen Brothers movie, The Serious Man, how it ends with a great whirlwind.
  zh: 看看科恩兄弟的电影《严肃的人》，它是如何以一场大旋风结束的。
- start: 1183.448
  end: 1185.468
  speaker: barron
  en: It's about the Book of Job.
  zh: 它是关于约伯记的。
- start: 1186.068
  end: 1188.069
  speaker: barron
  en: Why is God speaking out of the whirlwind?
  zh: 为什么神从旋风中说话？
- start: 1188.229
  end: 1194.99
  speaker: barron
  en: It's like a sandstorm, right, which kicks up sands that you can't see, blinded.
  zh: 它就像沙尘暴，对吧，扬起你看不见的沙子，使人目盲。
- start: 1196.002
  end: 1203.587
  speaker: barron
  en: You think you've got it but you don't. God obscures his vision.
  zh: 你以为你明白了，但其实没有。神遮蔽了他的视线。
- start: 1205.209
  end: 1209.111
  speaker: barron
  en: Who is this that obscures divine plans with words of ignorance?
  zh: 谁用无知的言语使神的旨意暗昧不明？
- start: 1209.151
  end: 1210.812
  speaker: barron
  en: Gird up your loins now like a man.
  zh: 你要如勇士束腰。
- start: 1210.812
  end: 1213.954
  speaker: barron
  en: I will question you and you tell me the answers.
  zh: 我问你，你可以回答我。
- start: 1214.235
  end: 1218.998
  speaker: barron
  en: And then God says to Job, where were you when I founded the earth?
  zh: 然后神对约伯说，我立大地根基的时候，你在哪里呢？
- start: 1219.158
  end: 1221.68
  speaker: barron
  en: Tell me you have such understanding.
  zh: 你若有聪明，只管说吧。
- start: 1222.22
  end: 1223.641
  speaker: barron
  en: Who determined its size?
  zh: 谁定地的尺度？
- start: 1223.641
  end: 1224.842
  speaker: barron
  en: Surely you know.
  zh: 你若晓得，只管说吧。
- start: 1225.396
  end: 1232.221
  speaker: barron
  en: Who stretched out the measuring line who laid the cornerstone?
  zh: 是谁拉了准绳，安放了地的房角石？
- start: 1233.123
  end: 1237.506
  speaker: barron
  en: Have you ever in your lifetime commanded the morning and shown the dawn its place?
  zh: 你在世的日子，曾命定晨光，使清晨的日光知道本位吗？
- start: 1238.407
  end: 1246.013
  speaker: barron
  en: And then God goes on and on exploring with Job the mysteries of this physical universe.
  zh: 然后神继续与约伯探讨这个物质宇宙的奥秘。
- start: 1246.894
  end: 1248.716
  speaker: barron
  en: How strange and inexplicable they are.
  zh: 它们是多么奇怪和难以解释。
- start: 1248.716
  end: 1250.997
  speaker: barron
  en: How little Job knows about them.
  zh: 约伯对它们知之甚少。
- start: 1251.878
  end: 1253.019
  speaker: barron
  en: What's the point now?
  zh: 现在的要点是什么？
- start: 1253.524
  end: 1255.726
  speaker: barron
  en: To explain away the problem?
  zh: 是为了解释掉这个问题吗？
- start: 1256.066
  end: 1265.914
  speaker: barron
  en: No. But to take Job's suffering and place it within an ever greater context of the totality of space and time.
  zh: 不是。而是要把约伯的苦难置于更广阔的时空整体背景中。
- start: 1266.875
  end: 1272.36
  speaker: barron
  en: Remember God's canvas, God's novel is all of space and all of time.
  zh: 记住，神的画布，神的小说是所有的空间和所有的时间。
- start: 1273.641
  end: 1274.842
  speaker: barron
  en: What's he up to?
  zh: 他在做什么？
- start: 1274.842
  end: 1278.605
  speaker: barron
  en: Well, you'd have to have a command of all of that to understand.
  zh: 嗯，你必须掌握所有这些才能理解。
- start: 1279.611
  end: 1286.437
  speaker: barron
  en: What Job looks at, what we look at, is our very, very narrow range of space and time.
  zh: 约伯看到的，我们看到的，是我们非常非常狭窄的时空范围。
- start: 1287.599
  end: 1290.541
  speaker: barron
  en: Look at this now, toward the end of God's speech to Job.
  zh: 现在看这个，在神对约伯讲话的结尾部分。
- start: 1290.541
  end: 1292.203
  speaker: barron
  en: I've always loved this section.
  zh: 我一直喜欢这个部分。
- start: 1293.885
  end: 1297.688
  speaker: barron
  en: He's taking Job on a tour of the universe, all of its wonders and mysteries.
  zh: 他带约伯游览宇宙，展示它所有的奇妙和奥秘。
- start: 1297.948
  end: 1299.389
  speaker: barron
  en: And here's how he concludes.
  zh: 这是他的结论。
- start: 1300.731
  end: 1306.034
  speaker: barron
  en: See, besides you, I made behemoth that feeds on grass like an ox.
  zh: 看哪，在你以外，我造了河马，它吃草如牛。
- start: 1306.034
  end: 1306.934
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, who's behemoth?
  zh: 现在，河马是谁？
- start: 1306.934
  end: 1308.756
  speaker: barron
  en: The scholars debate.
  zh: 学者们有争议。
- start: 1308.756
  end: 1312.498
  speaker: barron
  en: It could be a great crocodile or a great hippopotamus.
  zh: 它可能是一条大鳄鱼或一只大河马。
- start: 1313.94
  end: 1314.76
  speaker: barron
  en: It could be an animal.
  zh: 它可能是一种动物。
- start: 1316.442
  end: 1318.984
  speaker: barron
  en: I made him, Job, as I made you.
  zh: 约伯啊，我造它，如同造你一样。
- start: 1318.984
  end: 1320.865
  speaker: barron
  en: It's fascinating, isn't it?
  zh: 这很有趣，不是吗？
- start: 1321.426
  end: 1324.869
  speaker: barron
  en: We tend to look at our suffering purely from our perspective.
  zh: 我们倾向于纯粹从我们的角度看待我们的苦难。
- start: 1325.59
  end: 1328.111
  speaker: barron
  en: God looks at the totality of his creation.
  zh: 神看的是他创造的整体。
- start: 1328.252
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: I made behemoth as I made you.
  zh: 我造河马如同造你一样。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: Behold the strength in his loins, the vigor in the sinews of his belly.
  zh: 看哪，它腰间的力量，肚腹的肌肉多么强壮。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: He carries his tail like a cedar.
  zh: 它的尾巴好像香柏树。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: The sinews of his thighs are like cables.
  zh: 它大腿的筋像铁索。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: His bones like tubes of bronze.
  zh: 它的骨头好像铜管。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1329.813
  speaker: barron
  en: His frame like iron rods.
  zh: 它的骨架如铁棒。
- start: 1329.813
  end: 1330.934
  speaker: barron
  en: I bet, Job, you've never even thought about this creature, and yet I made him as I made you.
  zh: 我敢打赌，约伯，你从未想过这个生物，然而我造它如同造你一样。
- start: 1331.57
  end: 1331.57
  speaker: barron
  en: He's ingredient in my providence as you are.
  zh: 它和你一样是我护理中的一部分。
- start: 1331.57
  end: 1334.431
  speaker: barron
  en: Then he goes on to describe a second animal, probably a whale.
  zh: 然后他继续描述第二种动物，可能是鲸鱼。
- start: 1359.036
  end: 1364.318
  speaker: barron
  en: Can you lead about Leviathan with a hook or curb his tongue with a bit?
  zh: 你能用钩子钓上鲸鱼吗？能用绳子压住它的舌头吗？
- start: 1364.318
  end: 1366.638
  speaker: barron
  en: Can you put a rope in his nose?
  zh: 你能用绳子穿它的鼻子吗？
- start: 1366.839
  end: 1371.26
  speaker: barron
  en: Will he then plead with you time after time and address you with tender words?
  zh: 它岂会再三向你恳求，向你说柔和的话吗？
- start: 1372.24
  end: 1373.861
  speaker: barron
  en: Here's this great whale.
  zh: 这就是那条大鲸鱼。
- start: 1373.861
  end: 1375.381
  speaker: barron
  en: Probably Job's never thought about him.
  zh: 约伯可能从未想过它。
- start: 1375.381
  end: 1379.843
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of, right now, a whale making its way through the Pacific Ocean.
  zh: 想想，此刻，一头鲸鱼正在太平洋中游弋。
- start: 1381.683
  end: 1383.724
  speaker: barron
  en: But they're ingredient too in God's providence.
  zh: 但它们也是神护理中的一部分。
- start: 1383.724
  end: 1386.545
  speaker: barron
  en: Do you think the whale's going to do what you want him to do, Job?
  zh: 约伯啊，你认为鲸鱼会按你的意愿行事吗？
- start: 1387.867
  end: 1393.271
  speaker: barron
  en: Will he make an agreement with you that you may have him as a slave forever?
  zh: 它岂肯与你立约，使你永远拥有它为奴仆吗？
- start: 1393.271
  end: 1395.112
  speaker: barron
  en: Can you play with him as with a bird?
  zh: 你能像玩鸟一样玩它吗？
- start: 1395.112
  end: 1407.721
  speaker: barron
  en: You see what God's speech is doing is he's teasing Job out of a certain self-preoccupation and opening him to a vision of the totality of God's creation.
  zh: 你看，神的讲话是在把约伯从某种自我专注中引出来，让他看到神创造的整体景象。
- start: 1407.962
  end: 1415.467
  speaker: barron
  en: Whatever is happening to us, good and evil, is part of a much bigger and stranger story.
  zh: 无论发生在我们身上的是好是坏，都是一个更大更奇特故事的一部分。
- start: 1416.067
  end: 1418.348
  speaker: barron
  en: Okay, let me close with just two images.
  zh: 好的，让我用两个图像来结束。
- start: 1419.388
  end: 1421.228
  speaker: barron
  en: Both from my pastoral experience.
  zh: 这两个都来自我的牧养经历。
- start: 1422.669
  end: 1437.513
  speaker: barron
  en: Years ago, I used to help out at a parish on the weekend and in the front pew, almost every week I was there, I'd see this family and she was profoundly handicapped, both physically and mentally.
  zh: 多年前，我常在周末在一个教区帮忙，在前排座位上，几乎每周我都会看到这个家庭，她严重残疾，身体和精神都有障碍。
- start: 1437.865
  end: 1449.952
  speaker: barron
  en: And she was basically strapped into her chair and she was always in kind of a contorted position, always looked very uncomfortable and she would often get restless and she'd vocalize during Mass.
  zh: 她基本上被绑在椅子上，总是处于一种扭曲的姿势，看起来很不舒服，她经常会变得焦躁不安，在弥撒期间会发出声音。
- start: 1450.073
  end: 1453.095
  speaker: barron
  en: So I became used to her presence and knew the family a little bit.
  zh: 所以我习惯了她的存在，也稍微了解了这个家庭。
- start: 1453.095
  end: 1468.165
  speaker: barron
  en: But you know what always struck me was there was a brother of hers, young kid, 10 or 11, as she would struggle and she'd have difficulty, he would talk to her, he would wipe the saliva coming from her mouth.
  zh: 但你知道什么总是让我印象深刻，就是她有个兄弟，一个10或11岁的小孩，当她挣扎和遇到困难时，他会和她说话，会擦掉她嘴角的唾液。
- start: 1468.245
  end: 1476.927
  speaker: barron
  en: Little kid, you know how little kids are usually self-preoccupied, he wasn't, he was very involved with his sister in a deeply compassionate way.
  zh: 小孩子，你知道小孩子通常是多么自我专注，但他不是，他以一种深深的同情心关心他的姐姐。
- start: 1477.548
  end: 1482.369
  speaker: barron
  en: Now I've lost touch with that family, I moved away from that parish long ago, I have no idea what happened to them.
  zh: 现在我已经失去了与那个家庭的联系，我早就离开了那个教区，我不知道他们后来怎么样了。
- start: 1482.689
  end: 1484.589
  speaker: barron
  en: I've often mused about something.
  zh: 我经常思考一些事情。
- start: 1485.169
  end: 1496.863
  speaker: barron
  en: That little kid, 11 years old, he's probably, that kid now is probably in his mid-20s.
  zh: 那个11岁的小孩，他现在可能已经二十多岁了。
- start: 1496.863
  end: 1500.124
  speaker: barron
  en: Is he going to pass that compassion on to his children?
  zh: 他会把那种同情心传给他的孩子吗？
- start: 1500.625
  end: 1502.666
  speaker: barron
  en: Who will pass it on to their children?
  zh: 谁又会把它传给他们的孩子？
- start: 1502.786
  end: 1504.747
  speaker: barron
  en: Who will pass it on to their children?
  zh: 谁又会把它传给他们的孩子？
- start: 1504.927
  end: 1510.19
  speaker: barron
  en: And one of those children will become a saint when the church most needs a saint.
  zh: 而其中一个孩子将在教会最需要圣人的时候成为圣人。
- start: 1511.291
  end: 1514.912
  speaker: barron
  en: You see how God is working across all of space and all of time.
  zh: 你看神是如何在所有的空间和时间中工作的。
- start: 1516.133
  end: 1524.863
  speaker: barron
  en: We look at our little narrow bit of it and we say it doesn't make any sense what might God be about?
  zh: 我们看到的只是其中很小的一部分，我们说这没有任何意义，神可能在做什么？
- start: 1525.983
  end: 1528.304
  speaker: barron
  en: Now does that explain this little girl's suffering?
  zh: 现在，这能解释这个小女孩的苦难吗？
- start: 1528.304
  end: 1529.564
  speaker: barron
  en: Of course not.
  zh: 当然不能。
- start: 1529.705
  end: 1530.325
  speaker: barron
  en: Of course not.
  zh: 当然不能。
- start: 1530.325
  end: 1531.625
  speaker: barron
  en: Does that justify it?
  zh: 这能为它辩护吗？
- start: 1531.625
  end: 1532.666
  speaker: barron
  en: Of course not.
  zh: 当然不能。
- start: 1532.946
  end: 1537.567
  speaker: barron
  en: But does it shed a kind of light on the way God might work?
  zh: 但它是否为神可能的工作方式提供了某种启示？
- start: 1538.468
  end: 1541.069
  speaker: barron
  en: Here's the last one also from my pastoral experience.
  zh: 这是最后一个，也来自我的牧养经历。
- start: 1541.069
  end: 1551.393
  speaker: barron
  en: A young father came to me, a guy about 30. He had a young son who was three and the son had a disease, and they had to do surgery on him.
  zh: 一个年轻的父亲来找我，大约30岁。他有一个三岁的小儿子，儿子患了病，他们不得不给他做手术。
- start: 1551.393
  end: 1552.573
  speaker: barron
  en: Serious surgery.
  zh: 严重的手术。
- start: 1552.99
  end: 1562.435
  speaker: barron
  en: And he said, Father, what broke my heart was I went to the hospital after the surgery and there was my son and he was in all the pain that you're in after major surgery.
  zh: 他说，神父，让我心碎的是，我在手术后去了医院，看到我的儿子正承受着大手术后的所有痛苦。
- start: 1563.796
  end: 1569.959
  speaker: barron
  en: And I couldn't begin to explain to him why he was going through this because he just wouldn't understand it.
  zh: 我甚至无法开始向他解释为什么他要经历这些，因为他根本无法理解。
- start: 1570.47
  end: 1574.273
  speaker: barron
  en: But he knew somehow I was involved.
  zh: 但他知道我参与其中。
- start: 1574.413
  end: 1582.62
  speaker: barron
  en: Here I am his loving father and why are you allowing this calamity to happen to me is what his eyes were saying to his father.
  zh: 我是他慈爱的父亲，而他的眼神在对父亲说，为什么你允许这样的灾难发生在我身上。
- start: 1582.62
  end: 1589.345
  speaker: barron
  en: And the father said, it broke my heart because even in principle I couldn't begin to explain what surgery is about and all of that.
  zh: 父亲说，这让我心碎，因为即使在原则上我也无法开始解释手术是怎么回事以及所有那些。
- start: 1589.345
  end: 1597.412
  speaker: barron
  en: I remember as he told me that story I thought, what a wonderful metaphor for God vis-a-vis all of us.
  zh: 我记得当他告诉我这个故事时，我想，这对神与我们所有人的关系来说是多么美好的比喻。
- start: 1598.161
  end: 1603.025
  speaker: barron
  en: The father couldn't explain because of the huge difference between his own mind and the mind of his son.
  zh: 父亲无法解释，因为他自己的思维和儿子的思维之间存在巨大差异。
- start: 1603.025
  end: 1612.612
  speaker: barron
  en: Now, now, think about the mind of Ipsum Ese, the mind of God himself that commands all of space and all of time.
  zh: 现在，想想存在本身的心智，神自己的心智，它掌管所有的空间和时间。
- start: 1613.733
  end: 1623.28
  speaker: barron
  en: Is it possible that the heart of God breaks because he can't begin to explain to us precisely why we go through the suffering we go through?
  zh: 有没有可能神的心也会碎，因为他无法开始向我们准确解释为什么我们要经历这些苦难？
- start: 1624.061
  end: 1625.222
  speaker: barron
  en: Because it's meaningless?
  zh: 因为它毫无意义吗？
- start: 1625.222
  end: 1626.383
  speaker: barron
  en: No, no, no.
  zh: 不，不，不。
- start: 1626.744
  end: 1634.488
  speaker: barron
  en: From our perspective perhaps we can't take it in and that it breaks God's heart that he can't communicate this to us.
  zh: 从我们的角度来看，也许我们无法理解，而神无法向我们传达这一点，这让神心碎。
- start: 1635.469
  end: 1642.493
  speaker: barron
  en: Is that why, this goes beyond the book of Job, what does Ipsum Ese do?
  zh: 这就是为什么，这超越了约伯记，存在本身做了什么？
- start: 1642.593
  end: 1651.358
  speaker: barron
  en: What did God do but became one of us and entered precisely into our suffering?
  zh: 神做了什么，不就是成为我们中的一员，精确地进入我们的苦难吗？
- start: 1651.358
  end: 1656.401
  speaker: barron
  en: Think of the cross now as the limit case of meaningless suffering.
  zh: 现在把十字架看作是无意义苦难的极限案例。
- start: 1656.624
  end: 1661.167
  speaker: barron
  en: The son of God, the author of life came and you killed him, we hear St. Peter say.
  zh: 神的儿子，生命的创造者来了，而你们杀了他，我们听到圣彼得这样说。
- start: 1661.287
  end: 1663.628
  speaker: barron
  en: The limit case of meaningless suffering.
  zh: 无意义苦难的极限案例。
- start: 1665.51
  end: 1673.554
  speaker: barron
  en: Is that not to take it away but to transform it with his presence?
  zh: 这不是要消除它，而是用他的存在来改变它吗？
- start: 1674.355
  end: 1684.461
  speaker: barron
  en: I think that's the ultimate answer to Job and that's probably the ultimate answer to this mystery of suffering.
  zh: 我认为这是对约伯的最终答案，也可能是对苦难之谜的最终答案。
- start: 1685.143
  end: 1691.35
  speaker: barron
  en: God's providence fully manifested in God becoming one of us and suffering with us.
  zh: 神的护理充分体现在神成为我们中的一员并与我们一同受苦。
