- start: 13.237
  end: 16.579
  speaker: unknown
  en: Hi folks, and welcome back to The Original Church.
  zh: 大家好，欢迎回到「原始教会」。
- start: 16.579
  end: 27.026
  speaker: unknown
  en: Today's question is by request, and it's a little bit advanced, but if you don't know what the filioque is, it's a Latin compound word.
  zh: 今天的问题是应要求而来，稍微有点深奥，但如果你不知道「和子」是什么，它是一个拉丁语复合词。
- start: 27.026
  end: 29.727
  speaker: unknown
  en: It means, and the son.
  zh: 它的意思是「和子」。
- start: 29.826999999999998
  end: 38.973
  speaker: unknown
  en: Filio is son, que is a suffix you use to mean and, and in this case, Latin doesn't require the word the.
  zh: 「Filio」是「子」，「que」是表示「和」的后缀，在这种情况下，拉丁语不需要「the」这个词。
- start: 39.213
  end: 51.681
  speaker: unknown
  en: So this is the Latin word behind that part in the creed when we say, in the West, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 所以这就是信经中那部分的拉丁语词，在西方我们说圣灵是从圣父和圣子而出。
- start: 51.922
  end: 71.475
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now this is controversial because the Nicene Creed that is used in the Eastern traditions is exactly the same as ours, except that it does not have those three words in English and the son, because those words, or their equivalent, are not in the Greek.
  zh: 这是有争议的，因为东方传统使用的尼西亚信经与我们的完全相同，只是没有英语中的「和子」这三个词，因为这些词或其等同词在希腊文中并不存在。
- start: 71.475
  end: 73.416
  speaker: unknown
  en: So you understand what I'm saying.
  zh: 所以你明白我的意思。
- start: 73.436
  end: 78.439
  speaker: unknown
  en: The original version of the Nicene Creed does not have this.
  zh: 尼西亚信经的原始版本并没有这个。
- start: 78.459
  end: 81.181
  speaker: unknown
  en: The Western Church added it later.
  zh: 西方教会后来添加了它。
- start: 81.442
  end: 84.884
  speaker: unknown
  en: So there are really several questions here.
  zh: 所以这里实际上有几个问题。
- start: 85.564
  end: 98.673
  speaker: unknown
  en: One, did the concept of the filioque, which is double procession, the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and the Son, did that concept exist in the original church?
  zh: 第一，「和子」的概念，即双重发出，圣灵从圣父和圣子而出，这个概念在原始教会中存在吗？
- start: 98.846
  end: 102.809
  speaker: unknown
  en: Number two, is it orthodox or is it a heresy?
  zh: 第二，它是正统还是异端？
- start: 102.949
  end: 109.915
  speaker: unknown
  en: And number three, was it right or was it wrong for the Western Church to add it to the creed?
  zh: 第三，西方教会将其添加到信经中是对还是错？
- start: 110.415
  end: 115.859
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now to answer these questions, I need to clarify a little bit of doctrine and then tell the story.
  zh: 现在要回答这些问题，我需要澄清一些教义，然后讲述这个故事。
- start: 116.34
  end: 117.941
  speaker: unknown
  en: First the doctrine.
  zh: 首先是教义。
- start: 118.422
  end: 122.985
  speaker: unknown
  en: There are actually two doctrines that we need to understand here.
  zh: 这里实际上有两个我们需要理解的教义。
- start: 122.985
  end: 126.588
  speaker: unknown
  en: The first is called inseparable operation.
  zh: 第一个叫做不可分离的运作。
- start: 126.866
  end: 137.135
  speaker: unknown
  en: The doctrine of inseparable operation says that all three persons of the Trinity are involved and at work in all divine activity.
  zh: 不可分离运作的教义说，三位一体的三个位格都参与并在所有神圣活动中工作。
- start: 137.776
  end: 145.843
  speaker: unknown
  en: We don't have a God of creation and a God of salvation and a God of some, that would be three gods or that would be some other heresy.
  zh: 我们没有一个创造的神、一个救赎的神和其他什么神，那将是三个神或其他某种异端。
- start: 145.843
  end: 151.508
  speaker: unknown
  en: No, all three persons of the Trinity work together in all divine activity.
  zh: 不，三位一体的三个位格在所有神圣活动中一起工作。
- start: 151.508
  end: 153.65
  speaker: unknown
  en: That's inseparable operation.
  zh: 这就是不可分离的运作。
- start: 153.65
  end: 157.534
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now because of this, there's another doctrine that's important.
  zh: 因此，还有另一个重要的教义。
- start: 157.534
  end: 160.056
  speaker: unknown
  en: It's called appropriation.
  zh: 它被称为归属。
- start: 160.417
  end: 175.631
  speaker: unknown
  en: This says that since the three persons of the Trinity are all one God and all working together, then anything you can say about one person of the Trinity, you can also say about the other two persons or about the Trinity in general.
  zh: 这说的是，既然三位一体的三个位格都是一个神并一起工作，那么你能说的关于三位一体中一个位格的任何事，你也可以说到其他两个位格或整个三位一体。
- start: 175.631
  end: 182.034
  speaker: unknown
  en: So because the Father is creator, really all three persons of the Trinity are creator.
  zh: 所以因为圣父是创造者，实际上三位一体的三个位格都是创造者。
- start: 182.034
  end: 184.035
  speaker: unknown
  en: The Trinity is creator.
  zh: 三位一体是创造者。
- start: 184.035
  end: 185.115
  speaker: unknown
  en: See what I'm saying?
  zh: 明白我的意思吗？
- start: 187.036
  end: 210.889
  speaker: unknown
  en: The three persons of the Trinity are one God, so anything you can say about any one person of the Trinity, you have to be able to say also about the other two persons of the Trinity with a couple of very important exceptions because the three persons of the Trinity are not just one person with three names, that would be another heresy.
  zh: 三位一体的三个位格是一个神，所以你能说的关于三位一体中任何一个位格的事，你也必须能说到其他两个位格，但有几个非常重要的例外，因为三位一体的三个位格不仅仅是一个有三个名字的位格，那将是另一种异端。
- start: 211.049
  end: 215.271
  speaker: unknown
  en: So there are a few exceptions to the rule of appropriation.
  zh: 所以归属规则有几个例外。
- start: 215.271
  end: 220.192
  speaker: unknown
  en: In other words, there are things that make each person of the Trinity unique.
  zh: 换句话说，有些事情使三位一体的每个位格都是独特的。
- start: 220.212
  end: 224.056
  speaker: unknown
  en: For example, only the Son was incarnate.
  zh: 例如，只有圣子道成肉身。
- start: 224.117
  end: 226.28
  speaker: unknown
  en: Only the Son became human.
  zh: 只有圣子成为人。
- start: 226.28
  end: 230.505
  speaker: unknown
  en: The Father did not become human and the Spirit did not become human.
  zh: 圣父没有成为人，圣灵也没有成为人。
- start: 230.505
  end: 236.852
  speaker: unknown
  en: So the incarnation is something that applies in that sense only to the Son.
  zh: 所以从这个意义上说，道成肉身只适用于圣子。
- start: 238.746
  end: 250.131
  speaker: unknown
  en: Well, when it came time to describe what was unique about the Holy Spirit, it was really difficult for the church to clarify this, but they finally came up with the word proceeds.
  zh: 当需要描述圣灵的独特之处时，教会很难澄清这一点，但他们最终想出了「发出」这个词。
- start: 250.131
  end: 268.42
  speaker: unknown
  en: The Holy Spirit proceeds and all the church fathers would agree that it is right to say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, but when they wrote the creed, it only said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, period.
  zh: 圣灵发出，所有教父都会同意说圣灵从圣父通过圣子而出是正确的，但当他们写信经时，只说圣灵从圣父而出，就此而已。
- start: 268.917
  end: 271.698
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now I want to make a point that I will come back to in a minute.
  zh: 现在我想提出一点，稍后我会再回到这个问题。
- start: 272.078
  end: 276.139
  speaker: unknown
  en: Creeds were never meant to say everything we believe.
  zh: 信经从来不是为了说出我们所相信的一切。
- start: 276.139
  end: 280.421
  speaker: unknown
  en: I mean, they would have to be the length of a set of encyclopedias in order to do that.
  zh: 我的意思是，要做到这一点，它们就得有一套百科全书那么长。
- start: 280.621
  end: 286.043
  speaker: unknown
  en: So just because something is not in a creed does not mean that we reject it.
  zh: 所以，仅仅因为某些东西不在信经中，并不意味着我们拒绝它。
- start: 286.463
  end: 292.945
  speaker: unknown
  en: Also, even the Nicene Creed was never meant to replace all other creeds.
  zh: 此外，即使是尼西亚信经也从未打算取代所有其他信经。
- start: 293.274
  end: 314.191
  speaker: unknown
  en: It is meant to be the standard by which all other creeds are measured, so you can't have a creed that contradicts what's in the Nicene Creed, and it is meant to be the authoritative definition of our common faith, so the Nicene Creed is kind of the gold standard for interpreting the New Testament on the subject of the Trinity.
  zh: 它旨在成为衡量所有其他信经的标准，所以你不能有一个与尼西亚信经相矛盾的信经，它旨在成为我们共同信仰的权威定义，所以尼西亚信经是解释新约中关于三位一体主题的黄金标准。
- start: 314.781
  end: 321.763
  speaker: unknown
  en: But it was never assumed that, for example, the Apostles Creed was going to go away just because we had the Nicene Creed.
  zh: 但从未假设，例如，使徒信经会因为我们有了尼西亚信经就消失。
- start: 322.403
  end: 330.906
  speaker: unknown
  en: Okay, now the controversy that gave rise to the creed was the controversy over Arianism, the Arians.
  zh: 好的，现在引起信经争议的是关于亚略主义的争议，即亚略派。
- start: 330.906
  end: 367.499
  speaker: unknown
  en: Remember, those were the guys who denied the full divinity of the sun and who separated the father and the son as if the sun was less divine, less powerful, etc. Well, even after the councils of the fourth century, Arianism never really went away completely, and it eventually moved to the west with the help of one of Constantine's sons, who, when he became emperor, was pushing Arianism on the west, and this gave the western church such a hard time in the late fourth century that St. Ambrose, Bishop of Milan, started writing that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the father and the son as a way to emphasize the equality of the father and son against Arianism, and then along comes Ambrose's star disciple, St. Augustine.
  zh: 记住，那些人否认圣子的完全神性，并将圣父和圣子分开，好像圣子不那么神圣，不那么强大等。即使在四世纪的会议之后，亚略主义也从未真正完全消失，最终在君士坦丁的一个儿子的帮助下移到了西方，当他成为皇帝时，他在西方推行亚略主义，这给四世纪末的西方教会带来了如此大的麻烦，以至于米兰主教圣安布罗修开始写道，圣灵从圣父和圣子而出，作为强调圣父和圣子平等以对抗亚略主义的方式，然后安布罗修的明星弟子圣奥古斯丁出现了。
- start: 367.499
  end: 404.552
  speaker: unknown
  en: Augustine, or Augustine, either one's right, Augustine wrote very definitively that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the father and the son, and he based this on two doctrinal concepts.
  zh: 奥古斯丁，或奥古斯丁，两种说法都对，奥古斯丁非常明确地写道，圣灵从圣父和圣子而出，他基于两个教义概念。
- start: 404.552
  end: 413.937
  speaker: unknown
  en: The first is the fact that in the New Testament, St. Paul says that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the father and also the spirit of the son.
  zh: 第一个是新约中圣保罗说圣灵是圣父的灵，也是圣子的灵这一事实。
- start: 414.463
  end: 424.406
  speaker: unknown
  en: The second is that doctrine of inseparable operation, that all three persons of the Trinity work together in every divine activity.
  zh: 第二个是不可分离运作的教义，即三位一体的三个位格在每一项神圣活动中一起工作。
- start: 424.426
  end: 437.11
  speaker: unknown
  en: So if the father gives or sends the Holy Spirit, then the son must also give or send the Holy Spirit, otherwise the father and the son would be working separately.
  zh: 所以如果圣父赐予或差遣圣灵，那么圣子也必须赐予或差遣圣灵，否则圣父和圣子就会分开工作。
- start: 437.691
  end: 441.872
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now here I have to make a bit of a disclaimer, two actually.
  zh: 现在我必须做一点声明，实际上是两点。
- start: 442.172
  end: 449.397
  speaker: unknown
  en: First, not everything that St. Augustine says is automatically correct just because he says it.
  zh: 首先，圣奥古斯丁说的并不是每件事都自动正确，仅仅因为他说了。
- start: 449.538
  end: 458.684
  speaker: unknown
  en: I know he's a doctor of the church, but the church actually rejected some of the things that St. Augustine wrote and taught, we'll have more on that later.
  zh: 我知道他是教会博士，但教会实际上拒绝了圣奥古斯丁写的和教导的一些东西，我们稍后会详细讨论。
- start: 458.884
  end: 468.347
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now I'm not saying that his writing on double procession is a heresy, it's not, but he goes too far, like he always does.
  zh: 现在我并不是说他关于双重发出的写作是异端，不是的，但他走得太远了，就像他一贯的做法。
- start: 468.448
  end: 482.059
  speaker: unknown
  en: In his argumentation, he overstates a lot of things, and in this as well, he goes a bit too far, even contradicting himself, and that's how I know that I can say he goes too far, because he contradicts himself.
  zh: 在他的论证中，他夸大了很多事情，在这一点上也是如此，他走得有点太远，甚至自相矛盾，这就是我知道我可以说他走得太远的原因，因为他自相矛盾。
- start: 483.786
  end: 490.329
  speaker: unknown
  en: Second, Augustine is really at the very end of the period that we are calling the original church.
  zh: 第二，奥古斯丁实际上处于我们称之为原始教会时期的最末端。
- start: 490.37
  end: 500.195
  speaker: unknown
  en: In fact, I'm going to argue in a later video that he marks the end of the original church, and perhaps even the beginning of whatever it is that comes next.
  zh: 事实上，我将在后面的视频中论证，他标志着原始教会的结束，甚至可能是接下来无论是什么的开始。
- start: 500.855
  end: 512.922
  speaker: unknown
  en: But because double procession, the filioque, is in Ambrose before him, we won't say that Augustine invented it, but he did turn it up to 11, if you will.
  zh: 但因为双重发出，即「和子」，在他之前就出现在安布罗修那里，我们不会说奥古斯丁发明了它，但他确实把它提升到了11，如果你愿意这么说的话。
- start: 514.003
  end: 522.331
  speaker: unknown
  en: But anyway, the West clings to this idea of double procession because it successfully refutes Arianism.
  zh: 但无论如何，西方坚持这种双重发出的观念，因为它成功地驳斥了亚略主义。
- start: 523.033
  end: 538.675
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now they first added this to the creed in Spain, then from there it migrated to England, and then from there back to the continent of Europe, and then much later it became the straw that broke the camel's back.
  zh: 现在他们首先在西班牙将其添加到信经中，然后从那里迁移到英格兰，然后从那里回到欧洲大陆，然后很久之后它成为了压垮骆驼的最后一根稻草。
- start: 538.675
  end: 549.942
  speaker: unknown
  en: It became the last straw in the break between East and West, and there were accusations of heresy going in both directions that went along with that.
  zh: 它成为东西方分裂的最后一根稻草，伴随着双方互相指责对方是异端。
- start: 550.282
  end: 554.285
  speaker: unknown
  en: But this really is not a question of orthodoxy versus heresy.
  zh: 但这实际上不是正统与异端的问题。
- start: 554.365
  end: 564.251
  speaker: unknown
  en: The filioque was being used as an excuse in the 11th century for political reasons behind the split between East and West.
  zh: 在11世纪，「和子」被用作东西方分裂背后政治原因的借口。
- start: 565.273
  end: 567.298
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now I want to be clear about something.
  zh: 现在我想澄清一些事情。
- start: 567.36
  end: 570.328
  speaker: unknown
  en: This is not about papal authority.
  zh: 这不是关于教宗权威的问题。
- start: 570.584
  end: 586.27
  speaker: unknown
  en: Notice that the addition of the filioque to the creed started in Spain and worked its way from the outskirts of the Western edge of the known world inward, and the last place to add it to the creed was Rome.
  zh: 注意，将「和子」添加到信经中始于西班牙，从已知世界西部边缘向内推进，最后一个将其添加到信经中的地方是罗马。
- start: 586.291
  end: 594.774
  speaker: unknown
  en: The popes did not want to change the creed, and in fact the popes even said, look, not everything we believe has to be in the creed.
  zh: 教宗们不想改变信经，事实上教宗们甚至说，看，我们相信的并非所有事情都必须在信经中。
- start: 594.774
  end: 599.656
  speaker: unknown
  en: So even though we believe this, we don't have to add it to the creed.
  zh: 所以即使我们相信这一点，我们也不必将其添加到信经中。
- start: 600.056
  end: 603.32
  speaker: unknown
  en: Changing the creed was not a papal mandate.
  zh: 改变信经不是教宗的命令。
- start: 603.32
  end: 612.609
  speaker: unknown
  en: It came from Charlemagne, the Holy Roman Emperor in the 9th century, who pressured the popes to standardize everything across Europe.
  zh: 它来自9世纪的神圣罗马帝国皇帝查理大帝，他压迫教宗在整个欧洲标准化一切。
- start: 612.609
  end: 620.996
  speaker: unknown
  en: And then Charlemagne shoved it in the face of the Eastern Christians to assert his authority as emperor when there was already an emperor in the East.
  zh: 然后查理大帝将其强加于东方基督徒，以在东方已有皇帝的情况下宣示他作为皇帝的权威。
- start: 621.717
  end: 628.061
  speaker: unknown
  en: So the first thing I would say is that we have to stop calling each other heretics over this.
  zh: 所以我要说的第一件事是，我们必须停止因此互相称对方为异端。
- start: 628.202
  end: 634.246
  speaker: unknown
  en: Our popes and our patriarchs no longer call each other heretics over this issue, so why should we?
  zh: 我们的教宗和我们的宗主教不再因这个问题互相称对方为异端，那么我们为什么要这样做呢？
- start: 634.406
  end: 643.512
  speaker: unknown
  en: And at least one pope has recited the creed without the filioque in ecumenical liturgy with Eastern patriarchs.
  zh: 而且至少有一位教宗在与东方宗主教的大公礼仪中诵读不含「和子」的信经。
- start: 643.753
  end: 649.657
  speaker: unknown
  en: So let's please stop the Facebook wars over this issue and accept each other.
  zh: 所以请让我们停止在脸书上就这个问题进行争论，并互相接纳。
- start: 650.524
  end: 654.865
  speaker: unknown
  en: And the Nicene Creed does not mandate single procession.
  zh: 而且尼西亚信经并不强制单一发出。
- start: 655.146
  end: 659.807
  speaker: unknown
  en: It only says that the Spirit proceeds from the Father, which is true.
  zh: 它只说圣灵从圣父而出，这是真的。
- start: 659.907
  end: 666.93
  speaker: unknown
  en: And even the Eastern fathers would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
  zh: 甚至东方教父也会说圣灵从圣父通过圣子而出。
- start: 667.01
  end: 673.932
  speaker: unknown
  en: So that's not a single procession only kind of thing, and it doesn't negate double procession.
  zh: 所以这不是仅仅单一发出的事情，它也不否定双重发出。
- start: 676.545
  end: 680.807
  speaker: unknown
  en: If you'll allow me to propose a way forward, here's what I believe.
  zh: 如果你允许我提出一个前进的方向，这就是我的看法。
- start: 681.247
  end: 698.796
  speaker: unknown
  en: If we look carefully at what Augustine was saying, and allow him to posthumously back away from the overstated parts, he said that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father principally, implying that it is only secondarily that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 如果我们仔细看奥古斯丁所说的，并允许他在死后从夸大的部分退缩，他说圣灵主要从圣父而出，暗示只是次要地从圣父和圣子而出。
- start: 699.298
  end: 707.282
  speaker: unknown
  en: I think this is exactly what the Eastern fathers were saying when they said that the Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son.
  zh: 我认为这正是东方教父们所说的圣灵从圣父通过圣子而出的意思。
- start: 707.963
  end: 717.228
  speaker: unknown
  en: The real problem is that when it comes to the Son, we have two words to describe his uniqueness among the persons of the Trinity.
  zh: 真正的问题是，当涉及到圣子时，我们有两个词来描述他在三位一体中的独特性。
- start: 717.228
  end: 721.53
  speaker: unknown
  en: The Son is begotten, and the Son is incarnate.
  zh: 圣子是受生的，圣子是道成肉身的。
- start: 721.55
  end: 725.852
  speaker: unknown
  en: Only the Son is begotten, and only the Son is incarnate.
  zh: 只有圣子是受生的，只有圣子是道成肉身的。
- start: 725.853
  end: 726.913
  speaker: unknown
  en: Two words.
  zh: 两个词。
- start: 727.205
  end: 732.447
  speaker: unknown
  en: But when it comes to the Holy Spirit, we have only that one word, proceeds.
  zh: 但当涉及到圣灵时，我们只有一个词，发出。
- start: 733.047
  end: 741.951
  speaker: unknown
  en: So when we talk about the Son, Jesus Christ, we would say that with regard to the relationship of the Son to the Father, the Son is begotten.
  zh: 所以当我们谈论圣子耶稣基督时，我们会说关于圣子与圣父的关系，圣子是受生的。
- start: 741.971
  end: 744.732
  speaker: unknown
  en: He is begotten from the Father alone.
  zh: 他只从圣父受生。
- start: 745.312
  end: 752.535
  speaker: unknown
  en: But when we talk about his relationship to humanity, the Son is incarnate from the Father by the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 但当我们谈论他与人类的关系时，圣子是从圣父由圣灵道成肉身的。
- start: 753.602
  end: 762.407
  speaker: unknown
  en: So within the Trinity, the Son's very existence is described by the word begotten, begotten from the Father alone.
  zh: 所以在三位一体内，圣子的存在本身用受生这个词来描述，只从圣父受生。
- start: 762.607
  end: 769.73
  speaker: unknown
  en: And even Augustine says he couldn't be begotten from the Spirit because that would make him the Son of the Spirit, and we don't say that.
  zh: 甚至奥古斯丁也说他不可能从圣灵受生，因为那样会使他成为圣灵的儿子，而我们不这么说。
- start: 770.711
  end: 781.311
  speaker: unknown
  en: When it comes to the sort of external expression of the Son outside of the Trinity, his coming to us is described by the word incarnate.
  zh: 当涉及到三位一体之外圣子的某种外在表达时，他来到我们中间被描述为道成肉身。
- start: 781.311
  end: 793.602
  speaker: unknown
  en: And in that sense, we can apply the doctrine of inseparable operation, that the incarnation was affected by all three persons of the Holy Trinity, the Father through the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 从这个意义上说，我们可以应用不可分离运作的教义，即道成肉身是由圣三位一体的三个位格影响的，圣父通过圣灵。
- start: 794.893
  end: 800.919
  speaker: unknown
  en: But when it comes to the Holy Spirit, we don't have two words, we only have the one word.
  zh: 但当涉及到圣灵时，我们没有两个词，我们只有一个词。
- start: 800.919
  end: 807.925
  speaker: unknown
  en: So when we want to speak of the Holy Spirit's very existence within the Trinity, he proceeds.
  zh: 所以当我们想说圣灵在三位一体内的存在时，他发出。
- start: 808.084
  end: 814.065
  speaker: unknown
  en: When we want to speak of the Holy Spirit as God's gift to the Church, he proceeds.
  zh: 当我们想说圣灵作为神给教会的恩赐时，他发出。
- start: 814.186
  end: 825.788
  speaker: unknown
  en: And so you see, the word proceeds has two meanings, which means the Holy Spirit proceeds in two ways, and that's what's causing the confusion.
  zh: 所以你看，「发出」这个词有两个含义，这意味着圣灵以两种方式发出，这就是造成混淆的原因。
- start: 825.788
  end: 838.933
  speaker: unknown
  en: Because I think when Easterners insist that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, they mean in his eternal existence and the internal relationship within the Trinity.
  zh: 因为我认为当东方人坚持圣灵只从圣父而出时，他们指的是在他的永恒存在和三位一体内部关系中。
- start: 839.233
  end: 856.881
  speaker: unknown
  en: In that sense, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone, and admittedly, Augustine goes farther than saying this, but I think that when he talks about the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father alone principally, this is what he's getting at.
  zh: 从这个意义上说，圣灵只从圣父而出，诚然，奥古斯丁的说法比这更进一步，但我认为当他谈到圣灵主要从圣父而出时，这就是他的意思。
- start: 857.603
  end: 868.865
  speaker: unknown
  en: On the other hand, when Westerners insist that the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, they mean in the sense that the Holy Spirit is a gift to the Church.
  zh: 另一方面，当西方人坚持圣灵从圣父和圣子而出时，他们指的是圣灵作为给教会的恩赐的意义。
- start: 869.125
  end: 875.866
  speaker: unknown
  en: And this is where those passages come in where Jesus says that he is sending the Holy Spirit.
  zh: 这就是那些耶稣说他要差遣圣灵的经文所涉及的地方。
- start: 875.906
  end: 881.827
  speaker: unknown
  en: So as a gift from God, the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son.
  zh: 所以作为神的恩赐，圣灵从圣父和圣子而出。
- start: 882.387
  end: 896.256
  speaker: unknown
  en: So you see, we have two different definitions of the word proceeds, one that is more or less internal to the Trinity, and that's where I think it's fair to say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.
  zh: 所以你看，我们对「发出」这个词有两种不同的定义，一种或多或少是三位一体内部的，我认为在这里说圣灵只从圣父而出是公平的。
- start: 896.256
  end: 899.779
  speaker: unknown
  en: We might call this the Spirit's eternal procession.
  zh: 我们可以称之为圣灵的永恒发出。
- start: 900.951
  end: 913.775
  speaker: unknown
  en: And then there's another definition that is more external to the Trinity, which is when we would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, the Holy Spirit's procession in time.
  zh: 然后还有另一个定义，更多是三位一体之外的，这就是我们说圣灵从圣父和圣子而出时，圣灵在时间中的发出。
- start: 913.775
  end: 925.639
  speaker: unknown
  en: And if we don't have that, then we would be contradicting those New Testament passages that talk about the Holy Spirit as being the Spirit of the Son and a gift from Jesus himself.
  zh: 如果我们没有这个，那么我们就会与那些谈论圣灵是圣子的灵和耶稣自己的恩赐的新约经文相矛盾。
- start: 927.26
  end: 937.12
  speaker: unknown
  en: The point is, if the concept of procession is properly understood, then there's a way in which both the East and the West are right.
  zh: 关键是，如果正确理解发出的概念，那么东方和西方都是正确的。
- start: 937.38
  end: 939.701
  speaker: unknown
  en: We should not be arguing over this.
  zh: 我们不应该为此争论。
- start: 939.961
  end: 945.203
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now, you can say that the West should not have added it, but don't blame the popes.
  zh: 现在，你可以说西方不应该添加它，但不要责怪教宗们。
- start: 945.203
  end: 947.784
  speaker: unknown
  en: And don't make this an issue of papal authority.
  zh: 也不要把这变成教宗权威的问题。
- start: 947.784
  end: 950.685
  speaker: unknown
  en: Blame Charlemagne and imperial politics.
  zh: 责怪查理大帝和帝国政治。
- start: 951.165
  end: 960.462
  speaker: unknown
  en: And it's true that this was a major factor in the split of 1054. But don't blame the doctrine that successfully refutes Arianism.
  zh: 确实，这是1054年分裂的一个主要因素。但不要责怪成功驳斥亚略主义的教义。
- start: 960.622
  end: 966.304
  speaker: unknown
  en: Blame the pope's ambassador and the patriarch and ecclesiastical politics.
  zh: 责怪教宗的使者、宗主教和教会政治。
- start: 967.044
  end: 976.708
  speaker: unknown
  en: Now, if the pope ever says, hey, we're taking the filioque out of the creed, even though we believe it, you know what, I would be fine with that for the sake of unity.
  zh: 现在，如果教宗曾经说，嘿，我们要把「和子」从信经中删除，尽管我们相信它，你知道吗，为了团结，我会接受的。
- start: 977.028
  end: 979.969
  speaker: unknown
  en: But as long as it's in there, I'm going to say it.
  zh: 但只要它还在那里，我就会说它。
- start: 980.149
  end: 984.751
  speaker: unknown
  en: Because before there were ever creeds written at councils, there were regional creeds.
  zh: 因为在会议上写下信经之前，就有地区性的信经。
- start: 984.91
  end: 995.197
  speaker: unknown
  en: And so I think it's fair to consider that the Nicene Creed with the filioque in it is the Western version of the Nicene Creed, until the pope says otherwise.
  zh: 所以我认为，将包含「和子」的尼西亚信经视为尼西亚信经的西方版本是公平的，除非教宗另有说明。
- start: 995.397
  end: 1001.861
  speaker: unknown
  en: Well, that's the short version of the story of how the original church got the filioque.
  zh: 好了，这就是原始教会如何得到「和子」的简短版本。
- start: 1002.026
  end: 1007.308
  speaker: unknown
  en: It's a very sad thing that this is a factor in dividing us.
  zh: 这是一个让我们分裂的因素，这是非常令人悲伤的事情。
- start: 1007.308
  end: 1009.368
  speaker: unknown
  en: Because I don't think it has to.
  zh: 因为我认为它不必如此。
- start: 1009.469
  end: 1021.953
  speaker: unknown
  en: We can actually look at this, if we decide to see it on more than just a surface level, we can look at this as a way in which both sides have a piece of the truth.
  zh: 如果我们决定不仅仅从表面看待这个问题，我们实际上可以将其视为双方都拥有部分真理的一种方式。
- start: 1022.094
  end: 1035.634
  speaker: unknown
  en: And to say it all together, if you want to put it all together in one, you would say that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son, which is exactly what the Eastern Fathers did say in the original church.
  zh: 如果你想把它们全部放在一起，你会说圣灵从圣父通过圣子而出，这正是东方教父在原始教会中所说的。
- start: 1035.915
  end: 1037.137
  speaker: unknown
  en: Thanks for joining me.
  zh: 感谢你的收看。
- start: 1037.137
  end: 1038.238
  speaker: unknown
  en: See you next time.
  zh: 下次再见。
- start: 1039.992
  end: 1042.573
  speaker: unknown
  en: Hey, thanks for watching this video all the way to the end.
  zh: 嘿，感谢你看完这个视频。
- start: 1042.573
  end: 1044.073
  speaker: unknown
  en: I really appreciate that.
  zh: 我真的很感激。
- start: 1044.073
  end: 1050.676
  speaker: unknown
  en: Please share this video with your friends, and please join me in the original church community on Locals.com.
  zh: 请与你的朋友分享这个视频，并请在Locals.com上加入我的原始教会社区。
- start: 1050.676
  end: 1055.177
  speaker: unknown
  en: Don't forget that if you join the original church community on Locals.com,
  zh: 别忘了，如果你加入Locals.com上的原始教会社区，
- start: 1055.177
  end: 1060.16
  speaker: unknown
  en: you can join me each week for a live, in-depth, chronological Bible study.
  zh: 你可以每周参加我的实时、深入、按时间顺序进行的圣经研究。
- start: 1060.16
  end: 1063.822
  speaker: unknown
  en: It's live-streamed every Saturday, but you can watch it later if you're not available.
  zh: 每周六都有直播，但如果你没空，也可以之后观看。
- start: 1063.822
  end: 1065.803
  speaker: unknown
  en: So join me for that, and I'll see you there.
  zh: 所以加入我吧，我们那里见。
- start: 1065.803
  end: 1067.084
  speaker: unknown
  en: I hope to see you there.
  zh: 我希望在那里见到你。
- start: 1067.084
  end: 1068.945
  speaker: unknown
  en: I hope to see you there.
  zh: 我希望在那里见到你。
- start: 1068.965
  end: 1069.726
  speaker: unknown
  en: And I'll see you there.
  zh: 我们那里见。
