All right, you two, come out of the corner with your hands up. Ready to have a nice clean fight.

好吧，你们两个，把手举起来从角落里出来。准备进行一场干净的战斗。

No, that sounds like this is going to be combative. This is not going to be combative. This is just going to be an explanation.

不，这听起来像是要争论。这不是要争论。只是一个解释。

Hi, my name is Fr. Mike Schmitz and this is Ascension Presents.

你好，我叫迈克·史密斯神父，这是Ascension Presents。

So, a lot of times, a lot of times, when I’m either teaching or when someone encounters a teaching of the Catholic Church, people will ask, well, where’s that in the Bible? And that’s a great question, but it’s the wrong question.

所以，很多时候，无论是我在教导，还是有人遇到公教会的教义，人们会问：「圣经里哪里说的？」这是个好问题，但却是个错误的问题。

I mean, really, ultimately, when it comes down to it, it is the wrong question.

我的意思是，真的，究竟，归根结底，这是一个错误的问题。

Because, yes, while Catholics believe that the Bible is the Word of God, it is inerrant, it’s infallible, it’s reliable, it’s all these great things, it’s a huge gift from the Lord, we realize that it’s not the only way that God has revealed himself.

因为，是的，虽然公教徒相信圣经是神的话，是无谬的，是可靠的，是所有这些伟大的事情，是主的巨大恩赐，我们也认识到这不是神唯一启示自己的方式。

In fact, if you ever wanted to dive a little deeper when it comes to what do Catholics believe about divine revelation or what do Catholics believe about the Bible, read a little document that was published in the 1960s called Dei Verbum.

事实上，如果你想更深入了解公教徒对神圣启示的信仰或对圣经的信仰，可以阅读一份在二十世纪六十年代出版的小文献，名为《神的道》。

Dei Verbum, in English, is the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation.

《神的道》是关于神圣启示的教义宪章。

And it’s really critical because that English title of it, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, says a lot.

这很重要，因为其英文标题「神圣启示的教义宪章」说明了许多内容。

It’s not just on the Bible as the Word of God.

这不仅是在圣经作为神的道上。

It recognizes that while the Bible is the Word of God, that God also reveals himself definitively, or clearly, through at least two other sources.

它承认虽然圣经是神的道，神也通过至少另外两个来源明确地启示自己。

That we have the Bible, huge source of data.

我们有圣经，这是庞大的信息源。

This is the Bible, huge source of data, sacred scripture.

这是圣经，浩大的数据源，神圣的经文。

But God also reveals himself through sacred tradition.

但神也通过神圣的传统启示自己。

And he also reveals his teaching through the Magisterium of the Church.

他也通过教会的训导权启示他的教导。

Magisterium, magistra means teacher, right?

训导权，magistra意思是老师，对吗？

So the sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the teaching office of the Church, the Magisterium of the Church, that’s divine revelation.

所以圣经、圣传和教会的训导权，就是神的启示。

That’s what we believe and that’s one of the things that’s been believed from the beginning because it’s been necessary.

这就是我们的信仰，也是自始以来人们所信的，因为这是必要的。

I mean, this is so incredibly clear, that it’s absolutely necessary, not just theologically, but also just logically.

我的意思是，这非常清楚，绝对必要，不仅在神学上，而且在逻辑上也是如此。

Now, what do I mean? OK, here’s what I mean.

我现在说的是什么意思？好，我来解释。

The Christians, why do I believe that they absolutely need sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the Magisterium?

基督徒们，为什么我认为他们绝对需要圣经、圣传和训导权？

Well, because that’s what’s been necessary for the entire history of Christianity.

因为这是整个基督教历史上所必需的。

I mean, so question, where’s that in the Bible?

我的意思是，那个在圣经哪里？

Some people will typically use that question when it comes to purgatory.

有些人通常在谈到炼狱时会用那个问题。

That’s just kind of a common one.

这只是一个普通的。

Where’s the word purgatory in the Bible?

圣经里哪里有「炼狱」这个词？

And you would look through the whole Bible and you would not find the word purgatory.

你查遍整本圣经，也找不到炼狱这个词。

At which point, I typically respond, that’s true.

这时，我通常会回答：「那是真的。」

Where’s the word trinity?

「三位一体」这个词在哪里？

Because if you want to talk about a distinctly Christian doctrine that unites all Christians, you’re talking about the trinity, that we believe that God is one and yet he’s Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

因为如果你要谈论一个将所有基督徒团结在一起的独特基督教教义，那就是三位一体，我们相信神是独一的，但祂是圣父、圣子和圣灵。

So who came up with that? It’s not clearly expressed in the Bible.

这是谁提出的？圣经里没有明确表达。

In fact, the Church had to have a lot of discussion, had to have a lot of debate, had to have a lot of argument because some people were reading the same book and coming up with a completely different conclusion, that the Father is greater than the Son.

事实上，教会必须进行许多讨论，必须进行许多辩论，必须进行许多争论，因为有些人读同样的书，却得出完全不同的结论，认为圣父比圣子更大。

Why would they come to that conclusion?

他们为什么会得出这个结论？

Well, because Jesus says that in the scripture, but also Jesus seems to claim to be equal to the Father.

因为耶稣在经上这样说，但耶稣也似乎称自己与圣父同等。

So what do we make of that?

那么，我们如何看待这件事呢？

Also, is the Holy Spirit just simply the gift that comes from the Father through the Son?

另外，圣灵只是从圣父通过圣子而来的恩赐吗？

Or is that Holy Spirit the gift who’s also a member of this one united being called God?

那圣灵岂不是也是这个称为神的统一存在中的一员，也是赐予我们的恩赐吗？

That’s a huge question and it’s not clearly expressed in the Bible.

这是一个大问题，圣经里没有清楚地表达。

That’s why so many people throughout history have come to different conclusions on this.

这就是为什么历世历代许多人对此有不同结论。

So we have sacred scripture and we absolutely needed sacred tradition and then the magisterium, the teaching office of the Church.

所以我们有圣经，也绝对需要圣传，然后是教会的训导权。

I mean, this is so clear.

我的意思是，这很清楚。

Why would we need, and we continue to need this, right?

我们为何需要这个，并且我们一直需要，对吗？

We continue to need the teaching office of the Church because there are things, there are questions that you and I experience on a daily basis in our lives that the Bible never even imagined were going to be asked.

我们仍需要教会的教导，因为在我们生活中每天遇到的事情和问题，是圣经从未设想过的。

And so yes, you can apply biblical principles to these modern day questions.

是的，你可以将圣经的原则应用于现代的问题。

Absolutely you can.

当然可以。

That’s why we’re not just kind of making stuff up as we go.

这就是为什么我们不是随便编造的。

But how do you know you’re applying those biblical principles to modern day questions accurately?

可是你怎么知道你准确地将这些圣经原则应用于现代问题？

We can keep testing back to the Bible or you can rely upon sacred scripture, sacred tradition and the teaching office of the Church which has absolutely been necessary.

我们可以继续回到圣经进行测试，或者你可以依靠神圣经文、神圣传统以及教会的教导，这些都是绝对必要的。

Again, absolutely necessary.

再次，绝对必要。

When it comes down to it, and I’ve said, maybe I’ve said this before, when it comes down to it, there is no Christian who doesn’t also believe in the teaching office of the Church.

说到底，我可能以前也说过，说到底，没有基督徒不相信教会的教导职分。

There is no Christian who, when I say the Church, I mean the Catholic Church.

没有一个基督徒，当我说教会时，我指的是公教会。

There’s no Christian who doesn’t believe, hasn’t put their faith in the magisterium, the teaching office of the Church.

没有基督徒不相信，不将他们的信心放在教会的训导权上。

There is no Christian who doesn’t put their faith in the sacred tradition of the Catholic Church.

没有基督徒不把他们的信心放在公教会的神圣传统上。

How do I mean this?

我是什么意思？

Because every Christian believes in the authority of the Bible.

因为每一个基督徒都相信圣经的权威。

They believe that the Bible has X number of books.

他们相信圣经有X本书。

Now, Catholic Church teaches that there are 73 books of the Bible.

如今，公教会教导圣经有七十三卷书。

Protestants have 66 books.

新教徒有六十六卷书。

Martin Luther got rid of those seven books in the 1500s.

马丁·路德在十六世纪除去了那七本书。

OK, but even though it’s 66, even though it’s 66 books, the question you have to ask, logically, is how did you come to the conclusion that this book should have 66 books in it?

好的，但即使它有六十六卷书，即使它有六十六卷书，你要逻辑地问的问题是，你是如何得出结论，这本书应该有六十六卷书的呢？

How did you come to the conclusion that these are the 66 books in your Protestant Bible?

你是如何得出结论，这六十六卷书是你的新教圣经的？

The answer, ultimately, it comes down to, well A, they believe in the authority of Martin Luther to remove those seven, but B, in the year 250 in the Council of Rome, sorry, 315 in the Council of Rome, in the year 398 in the Council of Carthage, and in the 1500s in the Council of Trent, the Catholic Church definitively said these are the 73 books of the Bible.

答案归根结底有两点：第一，他们相信路德有权移除那七本书；第二，在公元250年的罗马会议、对不起，是公元315年的罗马会议、公元398年的迦太基会议，以及16世纪的特伦托大公会议上，公教会明确宣告这七十三本书是圣经的一部分。

So what happened was the sacred tradition or the magisterium of the Church said these 73 books are the scripture, are the sacred scripture.

于是，神圣的传统或教会的训导权说这七十三卷书是圣经，是神圣的经书。

So every Christian who believes in the Bible actually believes in the magisterium of the Catholic Church.

所以每个相信圣经的基督徒实际上都相信公教会的训导权。

They actually believe that the magisterium has the authority to definitively, infallibly teach this because they could have got this wrong.

他们确实相信训导权有权威绝对且无误地教导这些，因为他们可能会弄错。

I mean, the reality is you could have got the books of the Bible incorrectly.

我的意思是，你可能把圣经的书籍搞错了。

If I don’t believe they got it incorrect or got it wrong, that means I must be trusting in the authority of the magisterium and the sacred tradition.

如果我不相信他们搞错了或犯了错误，那就意味着我必须信靠训导权和神圣传统的权威。

I don’t know if that makes any sense, but it makes sense to me.

我不知道这是否有道理，但对我来说是有道理的。

It’s a logical kind of a thing.

这是合乎逻辑的事。

Because even, think about the illogic.

你想过这不合逻辑吗？

OK, so in the 1500s, Martin Luther had one of his rallying, two rallying cries to the Protestant Reformation.

好的，在十五世纪，马丁·路德向宗教改革发出了两次号召。

Again, this is not meant to be a Catholic, Protestant kind of a thing as much as it is to explain our background, our perspective as Catholics on what God has revealed.

再说一遍，这并不是天主教和新教的事，而是为了说明作为公教徒，我们对神所启示的背景和看法。

He’s revealed himself in sacred scripture, sacred tradition and the magisterium.

他在圣经、圣传和训导权中启示了自己。

OK, so in the 1500s, Martin Luther had two rallying cries to the Protestant Reformation.

好的，那么在1500年代，路德为宗教改革发出了两个号召。

One was sola fide, faith alone.

其一是唯独信心，单凭信心。

We can talk about that later.

我们以后再谈。

The other was sola scriptura, that we don’t believe anything that doesn’t come from scripture.

另一个是唯独圣经，我们不信任何不出于圣经的事。

This is one of the reasons why it’s very common to have the question, where is that in the Bible, right?

这就是为什么常有人问：「圣经里有这句话吗？」对吗？

Because Martin Luther had this thing, sola scriptura, scripture alone.

因为马丁·路德有这个信念，唯独圣经，唯独经文。

Here’s the interesting thing.

这有个有趣的事。

OK, that means as Christians, we won’t believe anything unless it’s in the Bible.

好吧，这意味着作为基督徒，我们不会相信圣经以外的任何事。

OK.

好。

Big question.

这是个大问题。

Where is the doctrine sola scriptura in the Bible?

圣经里哪里有「唯独圣经」的教义？

Like, where in this book, even with 73, or seven extra books, 73 in the Catholic Bible, even in the whole Bible, where is the doctrine Bible alone found in the Bible?

就是说，这本书里，就算有七十三卷书，公教会的圣经七十三卷书，在整本圣经里，哪里找到唯独圣经的教义？

And this is almost one of those, what you might call like a self-refuting teaching, that to uphold it refutes itself because if a thing must be in the Bible to be believed, where is sola scriptura in the Bible?

这几乎是一种自相矛盾的教导，支持它就等于推翻它自己，因为如果一件事必须在圣经中才可相信，那么「唯独圣经」在哪里呢？

Now, some people would turn to, I think, 1 Timothy 3, 2 Timothy 3, which talks about like this.

现在，有些人会翻到提摩太前书第三章，提摩太后书第三章，看到这样的话。

It’s Paul writing to Timothy and he says, But you, Timothy, remain faithful to what you’ve learned and believed because you know from who you learned it and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

这是保罗写信给提摩太，他说：「但你，提摩太，要在你所学的和所信的事上恒久，因为你知道是跟谁学的；并且知道你从小明白圣经，这圣经能使你因信基督耶稣有得救的智慧。」

Good, yeah, so scriptures capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus.

好的，经文能使你因信基督耶稣得救，有智慧。

And he goes on to say, All scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction, for training in righteousness so that the one who belongs to God is competent and equipped for every good work.

他又说：「圣经都是神所默示的，于教训、督责、使人归正、教导人学义都是有益的，叫属神的人得以完全，预备行各样的善事。」

Super good, like just amazing, right?

非常好，简直太棒了，对吗？

It’s scripture, we love it so much.

这是经文，我们非常喜爱。

Is St. Paul saying in that line, And all you need is scripture.

圣保罗在那句中是否说：你只需要经文。

Now, I would maintain he’s not saying that for a couple of reasons.

现在，我认为他不是这么说的，有几个原因。

One of those reasons being the kind of scripture that St. Paul is referring to when he’s talking to Timothy, he’s talking about the Old Testament.

其中一个原因是保罗在对提摩太说话时所指的经文，他所指的是旧约。

He’s not talking about the New Testament because that’s what Paul and Timothy and all the gang in the early church, when they talk scripture, when they say, It’s in the scriptures, it’s in the writings, what they’re talking about is they’re talking about the Old Testament.

他不是在谈论新约，因为保罗和提摩太以及早期教会的所有人，当他们谈论经文时，当他们说「在经上」，「在书上」，他们所指的是旧约。

So, as a modern day Christian, would you say, Actually, yeah, all you need is the Old Testament for salvation.

所以，作为现代基督徒，你会说，其实，是的，你只需要旧约就能得救。

Then you’d say, I don’t know if I want to say that.

然后你会说，我不知道我是否想说那句话。

If you don’t want to say that, then you also don’t want to point out or don’t want to come to the conclusion or maintain that this means that all you need is scripture or you have scripture alone for a source of data or a source of truth when it comes to our knowledge of God.

如果你不想这样说，那么你也不想指出或得出结论，或坚持认为这意味着你只需要圣经，或者你只有圣经作为关于我们对神的认识的数据或真理的来源。

Because you have to ask the question, What does sacred scripture say is the pillar and foundation of truth?

因为你必须问，圣经说真理的柱石和根基是什么？

Well, actually, it’s in another letter of St. Paul to Timothy, the first letter of St. Paul to Timothy, also chapter three.

其实，这是在保罗写给提摩太的另一封信中，就是保罗写给提摩太的第一封信，第三章。

Because in that letter, St. Paul says this, he says, I’m writing to you about these matters, right? Timothy, right?

因为在那封信里，圣保罗说了这样的话，他说，我是写信告诉你们这些事，对吗？提摩太，对吗？

Although I hope to visit you soon, but if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of truth.

我指望快到你那里去，只要我迟延日久，你也可以知道在神的家中当怎样行。神的家就是永生神的教会，真理的柱石和根基。

The pillar and foundation of truth.

真理的柱石和根基。

See, even the Bible, even the sacred scripture calls the church the pillar and foundation of truth.

看哪，连圣经，连神圣的经书也称教会为真理的柱石和根基。

It doesn’t call itself the pillar and foundation of truth, it calls the church.

它不是自称是真理的柱石和根基，而是称教会。

And again, at this point, there’s only one church, the church that would become to be known as the Catholic Church, the one holy Catholic apostolic church, the Roman Catholic Church.

再者，如今只有一个教会，就是后来被称为公教会的教会，圣而公的使徒教会，罗马公教会。

OK, so sacred scripture is one of God’s gifts to us, absolutely.

好，经文确实是神赐给我们的礼物之一，绝对没错。

But as St. Paul wrote in his second letter to the Thessalonians, he says, hold fast to the teachings that you were taught, whether by word of mouth, sacred tradition, or by letter.

但正如圣保罗在他写给帖撒罗尼迦人的第二封信中所说的，你们要坚守所学的教训，无论是口传、圣传，还是书信。

Yes, the Bible, huge gift of God to us.

是的，圣经，神赐给我们的巨大礼物。

But it’s not the only gift God has given us.

但这不是神赐给我们的唯一恩赐。

He wants us to know him and he wants us to know him clearly and he wants you to know him clearly.

祂要我们认识祂，祂要我们清楚认识祂，祂要你清楚认识祂。

That’s one of the reasons why he gave us the gift of sacred scripture.

这是他赐给我们圣经的原因之一。

But it’s also the reason why he gave us the gift of sacred tradition.

但这也是他赐给我们圣传的原因。

And it’s also why he gave us the gift of the magisterium, the teaching office of the church.

这也是为什么他赐我们训导权，教会的教导职分。

So here’s the question.

那么问题来了。

Why not just be grateful for all of the gifts?

为何不为所有恩赐感恩呢？

And to be able to say, OK, if it’s not clearly, you know, always something clearly, clearly expressed in the Bible, what has tradition taught about it?

并且能够说，好吧，如果圣经中没有清楚表达，那么传统教导了什么呢？

What has the teaching office of the church taught about it?

教会的教导职权对此有何教导？

Because these are all God’s gifts to the world so that we can come to have knowledge of him and fall more and more in love with him and follow him better.

因为这些都是神赐给世界的礼物，使我们可以认识祂，更加爱祂，更好地跟随祂。

That’s it.

就是这样。

From all of us here at Ascension Presents, my name’s Father Mike. God bless.

在Ascension Presents的所有人中，我是神父迈克。神祝福你。