好吧，你们两个，把手举起来从角落里出来。准备进行一场干净的战斗。 All right, you two, come out of the corner with your hands up. Ready to have a nice clean fight.
不，这听起来像是要争论。这不是要争论。只是一个解释。 No, that sounds like this is going to be combative. This is not going to be combative. This is just going to be an explanation.
你好，我叫迈克·史密斯神父，这是Ascension Presents。 Hi, my name is Fr. Mike Schmitz and this is Ascension Presents.
所以，很多时候，无论是我在教导，还是有人遇到公教会的教义，人们会 So, a lot of times, a lot of times, when I'm either teaching or when someone encounters a teaching of the Catholic Church,
问：「圣经里哪里说的？」这是个好问题，但却是个错误的问题。 people will ask, well, where's that in the Bible? And that's a great question, but it's the wrong question.
我的意思是，真的，究竟，归根结底，这是一个错误的问题。 I mean, really, ultimately, when it comes down to it, it is the wrong question.
因为，是的，虽然公教徒相信圣经是神的话，是无谬的，是可靠的，是所有 Because, yes, while Catholics believe that the Bible is the Word of God, it is inerrant, it's infallible, it's reliable,
这些伟大的事情，是主的巨大恩赐，我们也认识到这不是神唯一启示自己的方式。 it's all these great things, it's a huge gift from the Lord, we realize that it's not the only way that God has revealed himself.
事实上，如果你想更深入了解公教徒对神圣启示的信仰或对圣经的信 In fact, if you ever wanted to dive a little deeper when it comes to what do Catholics believe about divine revelation
仰，可以阅读一份在二十世纪六十年代出版的小文献，名为《神的道》。 or what do Catholics believe about the Bible, read a little document that was published in the 1960s called Dei Verbum.
《神的道》是关于神圣启示的教义宪章。 Dei Verbum, in English, is the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation.
这很重要，因为其英文标题「神圣启示的教义宪章」说明了许多内容。 And it's really critical because that English title of it, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation, says a lot.
这不仅是在圣经作为神的道上。 It's not just on the Bible as the Word of God.
它承认虽然圣经是神的道，神也通过至少另外两 It recognizes that while the Bible is the Word of God, that God also reveals himself definitively,
个来源明确地启示自己。 or clearly, through at least two other sources.
我们有圣经，这是庞大的信息源。 That we have the Bible, huge source of data.
这是圣经，浩大的数据源，神圣的经文。 This is the Bible, huge source of data, sacred scripture.
但神也通过神圣的传统启示自己。 But God also reveals himself through sacred tradition.
他也通过教会的训导权启示他的教导。 And he also reveals his teaching through the Magisterium of the Church.
训导权，magistra意思是老师，对吗？ Magisterium, magistra means teacher, right?
所以圣经、圣传和教会的训导权，就是 So the sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the teaching office of the Church, the Magisterium of the Church,
神的启示。 that's divine revelation.
这就是我们的信仰，也是自始以来人们所信的，因为这是必要的。 That's what we believe and that's one of the things that's been believed from the beginning because it's been necessary.
我的意思是，这非常清楚，绝对必要，不仅在神学上，而且在逻辑上也是如此。 I mean, this is so incredibly clear, that it's absolutely necessary, not just theologically, but also just logically.
我现在说的是什么意思？好，我来解释。 Now, what do I mean? OK, here's what I mean.
基督徒们，为什么我认为他们绝对需要圣经、圣传和训导权？ The Christians, why do I believe that they absolutely need sacred scripture, sacred tradition, and the Magisterium?
因为这是整个基督教历史上所必需的。 Well, because that's what's been necessary for the entire history of Christianity.
我的意思是，那个在圣经哪里？ I mean, so question, where's that in the Bible?
有些人通常在谈到炼狱时会用那个问题。 Some people will typically use that question when it comes to purgatory.
这只是一个普通的。 That's just kind of a common one.
圣经里哪里有「炼狱」这个词？ Where's the word purgatory in the Bible?
你查遍整本圣经，也找不到炼狱这个词。 And you would look through the whole Bible and you would not find the word purgatory.
这时，我通常会回答：「那是真的。」 At which point, I typically respond, that's true.
「三位一体」这个词在哪里？ Where's the word trinity?
因为如果你要谈论一个将所有基督徒团结在一起的独特基督教 Because if you want to talk about a distinctly Christian doctrine that unites all Christians,
教义，那就是三位一体，我们相信神是独一的，但祂是圣父、圣子和圣灵。 you're talking about the trinity, that we believe that God is one and yet he's Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
这是谁提出的？圣经里没有明确表达。 So who came up with that? It's not clearly expressed in the Bible.
事实上，教会必须进行许多讨论，必须进行许 In fact, the Church had to have a lot of discussion, had to have a lot of debate,
多辩论，必须进行许多争论，因为有些人读 had to have a lot of argument because some people were reading the same book
同样的书，却得出完全不同的结论，认为圣父比圣子更大。 and coming up with a completely different conclusion, that the Father is greater than the Son.
他们为什么会得出这个结论？ Why would they come to that conclusion?
因为耶稣在经上这样说，但耶稣也似乎称自己与圣父同等。 Well, because Jesus says that in the scripture, but also Jesus seems to claim to be equal to the Father.
那么，我们如何看待这件事呢？ So what do we make of that?
另外，圣灵只是从圣父通过圣子而来的恩赐吗？ Also, is the Holy Spirit just simply the gift that comes from the Father through the Son?
那圣灵岂不是也是这个称为神的统一存在中的一员，也是赐予我们的恩赐吗？ Or is that Holy Spirit the gift who's also a member of this one united being called God?
这是一个大问题，圣经里没有清楚地表达。 That's a huge question and it's not clearly expressed in the Bible.
这就是为什么历世历代许多人对此有不同结论。 That's why so many people throughout history have come to different conclusions on this.
所以我们有圣经，也绝对需要 So we have sacred scripture and we absolutely needed sacred tradition
圣传，然后是教会的训导权。 and then the magisterium, the teaching office of the Church.
我的意思是，这很清楚。 I mean, this is so clear.
我们为何需要这个，并且我们一直需要，对吗？ Why would we need, and we continue to need this, right?
我们仍需要教会的教导，因为在 We continue to need the teaching office of the Church because there are things,
我们生活中每天遇到的事情和问 there are questions that you and I experience on a daily basis in our lives
题，是圣经从未设想过的。 that the Bible never even imagined were going to be asked.
是的，你可以将圣经的原则应用于现代的问题。 And so yes, you can apply biblical principles to these modern day questions.
当然可以。 Absolutely you can.
这就是为什么我们不是随便编造的。 That's why we're not just kind of making stuff up as we go.
可是你怎么知道你准确地将这些圣经原则应用于现代问题？ But how do you know you're applying those biblical principles to modern day questions accurately?
我们可以继续回到圣经 We can keep testing back to the Bible
进行测试，或者你可以依靠神圣经文、神圣传统以及教会的教 or you can rely upon sacred scripture, sacred tradition and the teaching office of the Church
导，这些都是绝对必要的。 which has absolutely been necessary.
再次，绝对必要。 Again, absolutely necessary.
说到底，我可能以前也说过 When it comes down to it, and I've said, maybe I've said this before,
，说到底，没有基督徒不相信教会的教导职分。 when it comes down to it, there is no Christian who doesn't also believe in the teaching office of the Church.
没有一个基督徒，当我说教会时，我指的是公教会。 There is no Christian who, when I say the Church, I mean the Catholic Church.
没有基督徒不相信，不将他们的信心放在 There's no Christian who doesn't believe, hasn't put their faith in the magisterium,
教会的训导权上。 the teaching office of the Church.
没有基督徒不把他们的信心放在公教会的神圣传统上。 There is no Christian who doesn't put their faith in the sacred tradition of the Catholic Church.
我是什么意思？ How do I mean this?
因为每一个基督徒都相信圣经的权威。 Because every Christian believes in the authority of the Bible.
他们相信圣经有X本书。 They believe that the Bible has X number of books.
如今，公教会教导圣经有七十三卷书。 Now, Catholic Church teaches that there are 73 books of the Bible.
新教徒有六十六卷书。 Protestants have 66 books.
马丁·路德在十六世纪除去了那七本书。 Martin Luther got rid of those seven books in the 1500s.
好的，但即使它有六十六卷书，即使它有 OK, but even though it's 66, even though it's 66 books,
六十六卷书，你要逻辑地问的问 the question you have to ask, logically, is
题是，你是如何得出结论，这本书应该有六十六卷书的呢？ how did you come to the conclusion that this book should have 66 books in it?
你是如何得出结论，这六十六卷书是你的新教圣经的？ How did you come to the conclusion that these are the 66 books in your Protestant Bible?
答案归根结底有两点：第一，他们 The answer, ultimately, it comes down to, well A,
相信路德有权移除那七本书；第二，在公元25 they believe in the authority of Martin Luther to remove those seven,
0年的罗马会议、对不起，是公 but B, in the year 250 in the Council of Rome,
元315年的罗马会议 sorry, 315 in the Council of Rome,
、公元398年的迦太基会议 in the year 398 in the Council of Carthage,
，以及16世纪的特伦托大 and in the 1500s in the Council of Trent,
公会议上，公教会明确宣告这七十三本书是圣经的一部分。 the Catholic Church definitively said these are the 73 books of the Bible.
于是，神圣的传统或教会的训导权说这七 So what happened was the sacred tradition or the magisterium of the Church said
十三卷书是圣经，是神圣的经书。 these 73 books are the scripture, are the sacred scripture.
所以每个相信圣经的基督 So every Christian who believes in the Bible
徒实际上都相信公教会的训导权。 actually believes in the magisterium of the Catholic Church.
他们确实相信训导权有权威绝对 They actually believe that the magisterium has the authority
且无误地教导这些， to definitively, infallibly teach this
因为他们可能会弄错。 because they could have got this wrong.
我的意思是，你可能把圣经的书籍搞错了。 I mean, the reality is you could have got the books of the Bible incorrectly.
如果我不相信他们搞错了或犯了错 If I don't believe they got it incorrect or got it wrong,
误，那就意味着我必须信靠训导权和神圣传统的权威。 that means I must be trusting in the authority of the magisterium and the sacred tradition.
我不知道这是否有道理，但对我来说是有道理的。 I don't know if that makes any sense, but it makes sense to me.
这是合乎逻辑的事。 It's a logical kind of a thing.
你想过这不合逻辑吗？ Because even, think about the illogic.
好的，在十五世纪，马丁·路德 OK, so in the 1500s, Martin Luther had one of his rallying,
向宗教改革发出了两次号召。 two rallying cries to the Protestant Reformation.
再说一遍，这并不是天主教和新教的事， Again, this is not meant to be a Catholic, Protestant kind of a thing
而是为了说明作为公教徒 as much as it is to explain our background,
，我们对神所启示的背景和看法。 our perspective as Catholics on what God has revealed.
他在圣经、圣传和训导权中启示了自己。 He's revealed himself in sacred scripture, sacred tradition and the magisterium.
好的，那么在1500年代，路德为宗教改革发出了两个号召。 OK, so in the 1500s, Martin Luther had two rallying cries to the Protestant Reformation.
其一是唯独信心，单凭信心。 One was sola fide, faith alone.
我们以后再谈。 We can talk about that later.
另一个是唯独圣 The other was sola scriptura,
经，我们不信任何不出于圣经的事。 that we don't believe anything that doesn't come from scripture.
这就是为什么常有人问：「圣经里有 This is one of the reasons why it's very common to have the question,
这句话吗？」对吗？ where is that in the Bible, right?
因为马丁·路德有这个信念，唯独圣经，唯独经文。 Because Martin Luther had this thing, sola scriptura, scripture alone.
这有个有趣的事。 Here's the interesting thing.
好吧，这意味着作为基督徒，我们不会相信圣经以外的任何事。 OK, that means as Christians, we won't believe anything unless it's in the Bible.
好。 OK.
这是个大问题。 Big question.
圣经里哪里有「唯独圣经」的教义？ Where is the doctrine sola scriptura in the Bible?
就是说，这本书 Like, where in this book,
里，就算有七十三卷书，公教会的圣经七 even with 73, or seven extra books, 73 in the Catholic Bible,
十三卷书，在整 even in the whole Bible,
本圣经里，哪里找到唯独圣经的教义？ where is the doctrine Bible alone found in the Bible?
这几乎是一种自相矛盾的教导，支持它就等于推翻 And this is almost one of those, what you might call like a self-refuting teaching,
它自己，因为如果 that to uphold it refutes itself
一件事必须在圣经中才可相信，那 because if a thing must be in the Bible to be believed,
么「唯独圣经」在哪里呢？ where is sola scriptura in the Bible?
现在，有些人会翻到提摩太前书第三章，提 Now, some people would turn to, I think, 1 Timothy 3,
摩太后书 2 Timothy 3,
第三章，看到这样的话。 which talks about like this.
这是保罗写信给提摩太， It's Paul writing to Timothy and he says,
他说：「但你，提摩太，要在你所学的和 But you, Timothy, remain faithful to what you've learned and believed
所信的事上恒久，因为 because you know from who you learned it
你知道是跟谁学的；并且知道你从 and that from infancy you have known the sacred scriptures
小明白圣经，这圣经能使你因信基督耶稣有得救的智慧。」 which are capable of giving you wisdom for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
好的，经文能使你因信 Good, yeah, so scriptures capable of giving you wisdom
基督耶稣得救，有智慧。 for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus.
他又说：「 And he goes on to say,
圣经都是神所默示的，于教训、督责、使人归正、教 All scripture is inspired by God and useful for teaching, for refutation, for correction,
导人学义都是有益的，叫属神的人得 for training in righteousness so that the one who belongs to God
以完全，预备行各样的善事。」 is competent and equipped for every good work.
非常好，简直太棒了，对吗？ Super good, like just amazing, right?
这是经文，我们非常喜爱。 It's scripture, we love it so much.
圣保罗在那句中是 Is St. Paul saying in that line,
否说：你只需要经文。 And all you need is scripture.
现在，我认为他不是这么说的，有几个原因。 Now, I would maintain he's not saying that for a couple of reasons.
其中一个原因是保罗在对提摩太说话 One of those reasons being the kind of scripture that St. Paul is referring to
时所指的经文，他所指的是旧约。 when he's talking to Timothy, he's talking about the Old Testament.
他不是在谈论新约， He's not talking about the New Testament
因为保罗和提摩太以及早期教会的所有 because that's what Paul and Timothy and all the gang in the early church,
人，当他们谈论经文 when they talk scripture, when they say,
时，当他们说「在经上 It's in the scriptures, it's in the writings,
」，「在书上」，他们所指的是旧约。 what they're talking about is they're talking about the Old Testament.
所以，作为现代基督徒，你会 So, as a modern day Christian, would you say,
说，其实，是的，你只需要旧约就能得救。 Actually, yeah, all you need is the Old Testament for salvation.
然后你会说，我不知道我是否想说那句话。 Then you'd say, I don't know if I want to say that.
如果你不想这样说，那么你也不想指 If you don't want to say that, then you also don't want to point out
出或得出结论，或坚持认为这意味着 or don't want to come to the conclusion or maintain that this means
你只需要圣经，或者你只有圣经作为关于我 that all you need is scripture or you have scripture alone for a source of data
们对神的认识的数据或真理的来源。 or a source of truth when it comes to our knowledge of God.
因为你必须问， Because you have to ask the question,
圣经说真理的柱石和根基是什么？ What does sacred scripture say is the pillar and foundation of truth?
其实，这是在保罗写给提摩太的另一封信中 Well, actually, it's in another letter of St. Paul to Timothy,
，就是保罗写给提摩太的第一封信，第三章。 the first letter of St. Paul to Timothy, also chapter three.
因为在那封信里，圣保罗说了这样的话，他 Because in that letter, St. Paul says this, he says,
说，我是写信告诉你们这些事，对吗？提摩太，对吗？ I'm writing to you about these matters, right? Timothy, right?
我指望快到你那里去，只要我迟延日久 Although I hope to visit you soon, but if I should be delayed,
，你也可以知道在神的家中当怎 you should know how to behave in the household of God,
样行。神的家就是永生 which is the church of the living God,
神的教会，真理的柱石和根基。 which is the pillar and foundation of truth.
真理的柱石和根基。 The pillar and foundation of truth.
看哪，连圣经，连神圣的经书也称教会 See, even the Bible, even the sacred scripture calls the church
为真理的柱石和根基。 the pillar and foundation of truth.
它不是自称是真理的柱石和根基，而是称教会。 It doesn't call itself the pillar and foundation of truth, it calls the church.
再者，如今只有一个教会 And again, at this point, there's only one church,
，就是后来被称为公教会的教会 the church that would become to be known as the Catholic Church,
，圣而公的使徒教会，罗马公教会。 the one holy Catholic apostolic church, the Roman Catholic Church.
好，经文确实是神赐给我们的礼物之一，绝对没错。 OK, so sacred scripture is one of God's gifts to us, absolutely.
但正如圣保罗在他写给帖撒罗尼迦人的第 But as St. Paul wrote in his second letter to the Thessalonians,
二封信中所说的，你们要坚守所学的 he says, hold fast to the teachings that you were taught,
教训，无论是口传、圣传，还是书信。 whether by word of mouth, sacred tradition, or by letter.
是的，圣经，神赐给我们的巨大礼物。 Yes, the Bible, huge gift of God to us.
但这不是神赐给我们的唯一恩赐。 But it's not the only gift God has given us.
祂要我们认识祂，祂要我们清楚认识 He wants us to know him and he wants us to know him clearly
祂，祂要你清楚认识祂。 and he wants you to know him clearly.
这是他赐给我们圣经的原因之一。 That's one of the reasons why he gave us the gift of sacred scripture.
但这也是他赐给我们圣传的原因。 But it's also the reason why he gave us the gift of sacred tradition.
这也是为什么他赐我们训导权 And it's also why he gave us the gift of the magisterium,
，教会的教导职分。 the teaching office of the church.
那么问题来了。 So here's the question.
为何不为所有恩赐感恩呢？ Why not just be grateful for all of the gifts?
并且能够说，好吧，如果圣 And to be able to say, OK, if it's not clearly, you know,
经中没有清楚表达，那么传 always something clearly, clearly expressed in the Bible,
统教导了什么呢？ what has tradition taught about it?
教会的教导职权对此有何教导？ What has the teaching office of the church taught about it?
因为这些都是神赐给世 Because these are all God's gifts to the world
界的礼物，使我们可以 so that we can come to have knowledge of him
认识祂，更加爱祂，更好地跟随祂。 and fall more and more in love with him and follow him better.
就是这样。 That's it.
在Ascension Presents的所有人中，我 From all of us here at Ascension Presents,
是神父迈克。神祝福你。 my name's Father Mike. God bless.